UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: duncan on January 26, 2018, 01:18:30 pm
-
A few people have mentioned Intermittent Fasting in power club and sharkathon posts and I thought it worthy of consideration.
Always believed that breakfast kicked your metbolism out of night time shut-down mode back into full operating mode so skipping it actually means you're burning calories more slowly than you would had you eaten it?
(Not a dig, a very commonly held belief)
Apparently not always (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10837292). "The effects of food restriction on energy metabolism have been under investigation for more than a century. Data obtained are conflicting and research has failed to provide conclusive results."
Leangains (https://leangains.com/leangains-site-guide/) seems to be the cheer-leader for this approach. How credible is he?
Anyone tried this out?
What did you do?
How did you get on?
-
Tried it out. Lost about 10 kg easily. Makes getting to fighting weight before trips pretty straight forward.
I think the concern people have is going into 'starvation mode' but that is something that happens in days rather than hours. You don't feel hungry in starvation mode but you will if you don't eat for 24 hours.
Basically it takes around 14 hours to burn through your glycogen stores and then you'll theoretically start burning far stores.
Whether that is the actual mechanism or whether by restricting your calories to a certain time of day you end up eating less, I'm not sure. However I have noticed I feel much more hungry in middle of day if I've eaten breakfast compared to when I haven't.
Anyway there is a lot more detail out there and studies etc, but it has worked wonders for me, it's the way forward as far as I'm concerned!
-
I started it, partly because of the potential for weight loss, and also because of the apparent benefits on productivity.
I was led to believe that there is quite a lot of proper research on it. For example, the boost to testosterone / HGH levels.
My experience is that the skipping breakfast = sluggish thing is a myth. I feel far more alert in the mornings having not eaten since the previous day. I usually have my first meal between 2-5pm. I used to get terrible stitches when running after eating. Now I generally run mid-late afternoon and eat afterwards, and have not suffered at all since starting IF.
-
As I mentioned on Club De Puissance (or whatever it's called nowadays), I've been doing it for a couple of weeks.
My reading of the various blogs was that it was a way of dropping body fat percentage, as opposed to necessarily losing weight (though I guess if you aren't chucking heavy weights around / eating large meals in your "window" that would be a by=product).
I wish I'd assessed my overall weight / body fat % before and after a couple of weeks, but I certainly felt (and apparently looked) lighter and a bit leaner.
Agree with Yoss' points re: appetite and sluggishness. I felt a lot more alert / had more energy, and found it easier to resist snacking and eating crap as well.
-
Leangains (https://leangains.com/leangains-site-guide/) seems to be the cheer-leader for this approach. How credible is he?
He is ripped, surely that's credentials enough? /s
Seriously though, it was his website that got me into it. He was saying it was ok to not eat in the morning, I needed a workable way of eating less, so I gave it a go. I was soon in the form of my life.
I like to think my bullshit detector is quite strong (don't we all?) and he doesn't really bullshit too much. He doesn't advocate IF because of ancestral health or hormones or one-bad-macro or gluten; he advocates IF mainly because of strong dietary compliance. It is a tool rather than a goal.
There's a lot of nutjobs and commercial interests out there advocating all sorts of things but he isn't one of them IMO.
Alan Aragon's summary of IF, hosted here with Leangain's comments (https://leangains.com/intermittent-fasting-where-are-we-now/) is a worthwhile reference point for the state of IF research (summary - it's inconclusive AKA it is about what you eat not when you eat). If he was a quack selling snakeoil there wouldn't be any point in sharing that with his readers.
-
I'm a sceptic that intermittent fasting does anything other than force you be a bit more circumspect about what you eat. I've not eaten a breakfast for many years and over the last 5 (since I've been working from home) my lunch has got later and later so most week days I'll 'fast' for at least 14 hours but my weight is still subject to the same vagaries as ever depending on what and how much I eat, how much excercise I do etc. If you are someone who suddenly decides you want to make a change and lose some weight then fasting just forces you to eat less. You have to cut out snacking for most of the day, you're not having that packet of crisps at lunchtime etc, and as you are now keen to lose weight you may subconsciously start watching what you do actually eat.
A few years ago my mate was propounding the Atkins diet as it worked for him but really it was because it forced him to stop drinking. Same with this, if you eat less frequently you will inevitably eat less
-
As usual Examine provide a fairly good overview on IF:
https://examine.com/search/?q=intermittent+fasting (https://examine.com/search/?q=intermittent+fasting)
Lots of research pointing to increases in NAD+ levels caused by IF as one of the mechanisms at work behind the 'metabolic changes' claims. If you're interested in NAD+ (and you should be if you're over 30), also worth researching Niagen..
I did a 24hr fast last Monday just out of interest. First time in a couple of years I'd deliberately fasted.
-
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgwJfbeCeU
-
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgwJfbeCeU
so good.
-
Quiches Lorraine gets me every time.
Reminds me of that one on Little Britain where the posh guy ordered his desert “and a Yorkie Bar......buttered”. Good times.
-
I'm a sceptic that intermittent fasting does anything other than force you be a bit more circumspect about what you eat
Agreed.
my weight is still subject to the same vagaries as ever depending on what and how much I eat, how much excercise I do etc.
Of course. Nail on head.
if you eat less frequently you will inevitably eat less
Most likely but not inevitably. See butterfield (though technically he wasn’t fasting).
-
Haven't read all the above links, but I think that the main factors to take into account - Intermittent Fasting or not - are: food quality (skipping a bad breakfast is probably a good thing, skipping a good one is probably a bad thing); weight loss quality (losing muscle is a bad thing because you lose not only overall power, but also training capacity and most of all you lower your basal metabolism; losing fat is a good thing); time of training (training in the morning, afternoon or evening require different eating strategies); the thing that protein synthesis goes on even while "energy" to perform a task is not required (during sleep, or sedentary work).
Just my 2 cents.
-
Just listened to this which is pertinent to whether IF might work for you or not:
Next is failing to find the eating style that fits your nutritional struggles at the moment. For example, if your main issue is that you mindlessly graze all day and eat at random times and adopt an intermittent fasting approach to fix this, you are likely setting yourself up for failure. Not because intermittent fasting is incapable of producing weight loss but rather in your specific case it is directly opposite of the mannerisms that are most embedded in your approach to eating right now. Instead, you would want to do IF if your issues revolved more on frequent large portion eating.
-
The slightly disingenuous side to my post is that I didn't just do intermittent fasting to loose weight. I also improved to quality of the food I was eating, cutting out all the junk and switching to more sweet potato and fruit for carbs. Also big cut down on the booze. So my n of 1 study has a lot of confounding factors.
-
Like Teaboy says that's probably quite a common side-effect of consciously restricting calorie intake - to also improve the quality of the calories you still consume:
I'm a sceptic that intermittent fasting does anything other than force you be a bit more circumspect about what you eat.
The science behind calorie restriction is fascinating, especially regarding the role of NAD+. Inflammation, gene expression and optimising the mitochondria's energy production (e.g. ATP for power Nibile) are all strongly linked.
It's more to do with general health (especially in over 30-40s) than about weight loss (although those who overeat to excess show the most obvious symptoms).
Nibile, I doubt many people are quite as concerned about pure power output as you!
-
Nibile, I doubt many people are quite as concerned about pure power output as you!
;D probably!
Made my day, have a point!
-
"Data obtained are conflicting and research has failed to provide conclusive results."
The case for 99% of dietary research?
-
Thanks for your thoughs everyone. Mainly concerned with helping with the behavioural challenges of weight loss and interested if this would suit me. I've never been skinny, even as a teenager, with a build much better suited to mountaineering than rock climbing. My weight has crept up another 1.5-2kg over the last few years. Visual observation suggests this is mostly increase in bodyfat so something has to be done. My diet is pretty healthy most of the time, don't snack during the day, hardly drink, modern fashions might say too much bread, rice and pasta. In the past, cutting out evening snacks has usually been effective but not so much recently.
Just listened to this which is pertinent to whether IF might work for you or not:
Next is failing to find the eating style that fits your nutritional struggles at the moment. For example, if your main issue is that you mindlessly graze all day and eat at random times and adopt an intermittent fasting approach to fix this, you are likely setting yourself up for failure. Not because intermittent fasting is incapable of producing weight loss but rather in your specific case it is directly opposite of the mannerisms that are most embedded in your approach to eating right now. Instead, you would want to do IF if your issues revolved more on frequent large portion eating.
Where is this quote from? I don't quite follow. My biggest issue is in the evening: I start eating when I get home from work and find it hard to stop. Is this saying IF could exacerbate this? One way to find out I suppose.
-
Just listened to this which is pertinent to whether IF might work for you or not:
Next is failing to find the eating style that fits your nutritional struggles at the moment. For example, if your main issue is that you mindlessly graze all day and eat at random times and adopt an intermittent fasting approach to fix this, you are likely setting yourself up for failure. Not because intermittent fasting is incapable of producing weight loss but rather in your specific case it is directly opposite of the mannerisms that are most embedded in your approach to eating right now. Instead, you would want to do IF if your issues revolved more on frequent large portion eating.
Where is this quote from? I don't quite follow. My biggest issue is in the evening: I start eating when I get home from work and find it hard to stop. Is this saying IF could exacerbate this? One way to find out I suppose.
From this:
https://youtu.be/qsblelGQTP0
-
:offtopic: Why are American fitness-youtubers so incredibly shouty? Unwatchable.
-
;D Duncan's fault asking for the source.
There is a transcript
-
There is a transcript
Thank god. Was quite happy to see that it was not set in all caps
-
Thanks Simon. I think he means small behavioural changes are more likely to stick than big ones. Which is probably true. He spoils it by repeating the '75% dehydrated (https://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp)' factoid. AND SHOUTING!
-
But drinking more water than necessary can make you feel more full, that's pretty well known. Diminishing returns, I suspect.
-
FWIW I disagree with what he said about IF being unsuitable for grazers as well. It's kind of like saying that if you like eating a lot of food then eating less food might be unsuitable.
If you graze mindlessly all day and struggle with your weight then perhaps having certain times of the day where you don't eat really would be a good idea!
-
I don’t think this made it’s way into this discussion, but MIT reported on their study in May 18, shortly after the last comment on this thread, and it’s quite encouraging:
http://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503 (http://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503)
-
How about the people who posted on this thread originally?
When I read about this last year I thought “That sounds like a bad idea, it’s going to be very hard to stick to and if you do manage to stick with it you’ve basically developed an eating disorder”.
Thirteen months on do the people who were going to try it still do it? Do you weigh more, less or the same as you did back then?
-
I was under the impression that the wider consensus was that fasting wasn’t good for you?
-
I do still do it most weekdays. When I run (2-3 times a week) I generally avoid eating at all until afterwards, which sometimes is as late as 5-5.30pm. I do most of my work between 9-3pm, and definitely think I feel more awake / alert / productive with nothing more than coffee and water in the morning. If I stop to eat at lunchtime, I find it quite hard to get back to work on something unless it’s particularly fun.
In terms of weight loss, I think it does help, but even though you’re eating in a shorter window it’s obvs still quite easy to overdo it. Earlier on last year, I was quite restrictive with my evening meal, and consistently lost 1-1.5kg per week. This year I think I’m training harder, and consequently am eating more substantial / protein-rich meals, and weight loss is more gradual. But probably more sensible / sustainable, etc.
Personally I now see it more as a productivity / time thing, with weight loss (and possible health) benefits.
Edit - I weigh approx 20kg less than I did when I started.
-
Have you tried intermittent fisting?
-
Have you tried intermittent fisting?
Like once a day instead of three times?
-
I was under the impression that the wider consensus was that fisting wasn’t good for you?
-
I was under the impression that the wider consensus was that fisting wasn’t good for you?
:D
-
I roughly follow it when cutting for a trip (no breakfast, lunch at 1200, dinner 1900 - 2000). It works but most likely more down to calorie deficit
-
It works but most likely more down to calorie deficit
How else could it work?
-
Actually, this study wasn’t about weight loss and it doesn’t advocate (or indicate?) fasting as a frequent activity, as the diet protocols do.
The study links fasting for 24hrs to “rebooting” stem cell action/health and, sort of, resetting the body/metabolism.
I think that is distinct from a weekly fast?
I took it to be a once or twice a year thing.?
-
I was under the impression that IF produced some of the health benefits of longer fasts whilst being less antisocial / effecting athletic performance.
If you have seen the Dave Mac interview with the Gresh re his ketogenic diet (something along the lines of “feeling well weapon”) then that’s a slightly more Jason Bournesque description of my own experience...
-
Have you tried intermittent fisting?
I’m sure Tommy has the latest data on this.
-
Double for Tommy given the cracks he furtles around in!!
-
I tried the 5:2 diet in the past (where on two days of the week you restrict your intake to 500 calories) and seemed to loose weight and still have enough energy for decent work out. (i'd do a finger board session but not three hour endurance session)
-
I was under the impression that the wider consensus was that fisting wasn’t good for you?
Depends if you are giving or receiving..
-
There've been a lot of anecdotal reports that many women don't do well with standard intermittent fasting -- lots of reports of "I felt great for the first few months and then my metabolism and hormones fell apart."
In some animal models you get really different hormonal responses to fasting in male and female animals, so this may well be true of humans too.
Anyway, thought I'd mention that in case there are other female people around here.
For a much less dramatic form of "fasting", Dr Satchin Panda's doing some really interesting work on "time-restricted eating" (and how eating interacts with circadian rhythms and all sorts of fun stuff) -- it looks like just restricting eating to a 12-hour window in the day (or 10 if you wanna be ambitious), can potentially get you some some serious health benefits. Worth Googling if anyone's interested.
-
Very interested in the topic of time restricted eating. I got into the habit of not eating breakfast until 10am recently. Today I ran instead of eating breakfast and then ate lunch at the normal time. I'm too fat to run every day (shin splints) but I am tempted to try putting off eating breakfast as long as possible each day and seeing what this does. I suspect I will need to stop evening snacking to see any real benefits...
Dr Panda is pushing an app that supports time limited eating which I am tempted to try...
https://mycircadianclock.org/
-
I suspect I will need to stop evening snacking to see any real benefits...
It’s a crazy idea, but it just might work. ;)
-
Intermittent fasting seems to be similar to restricting and binging. You could add ‘healthy enema’s’ into the equation to give you the gamut. Restrict, binge then purge. Alternatively some regular approach to a balanced diet with exercise has been shown to offer health gains? Flexibility is also important like eating for pleasure or with friends.
-
Did Dr. Panda write the thesis on confirmation bias? Or was that Dave Mac?
-
I've not read the thread so apologies if this has been said already. On the topic of exercise in the morning having fasted overnight/no breakfast. In theory this should help eat into fat stores (depending on the intensity etc) as your glucose/glycogen stores will be lower. High intensity training, whether you eat or not, it likely to increase your metabolism throughout the day and aid weight loss in any event.
-
How about the people who posted on this thread originally?
When I read about this last year I thought “That sounds like a bad idea, it’s going to be very hard to stick to and if you do manage to stick with it you’ve basically developed an eating disorder”.
Thirteen months on do the people who were going to try it still do it? Do you weigh more, less or the same as you did back then?
Hey mike I was and remain a big fan of IF. If I commit to it then it’s a fairly easy way to lose or maintain. It doesn’t get in the way of life. Its basically just skipping breakfast and is easy to stick to.
As to whether it caused an eating disorder, I don’t know. I don’t think it has. I have been a bit funny about food since I lost c20kgs a few years ago and am more vigilant than someone who perhaps struggles to put weight on (whatever that means), or who doesn’t care that they are fat, but no more so now than before. I guess it depends on how you define an ED tho - if skipping meals is an ED then count me in.
My weight has fluctuated across the year as I have prioritised getting it down more or less, but as my current “heavy” weight is below my previous “goal” weight and I can hang out round here very easily I don’t think it’s so bad. Sent my long term project in August weighing a few kilos more than what I had been by end February which perhaps just shows I didn’t need to drop as much as I thought. At the weight I got to I was certainly leaner than needed for my goals and skills.
Bit of a ramble but there it is that’s my experience.
-
I guess it depends on how you define an ED tho - if skipping meals is an ED then count me in.
This sounds rather as though you are trivialising eating disorders Murph. A real eating disorder is potentially life threatening mental illness, isolation and misery. Skipping breakfast is just that.
-
Fair point Toby.
It was meant to trivialise skipping meals rather than the ED. Admit I didn’t make the point very well.
-
Fair point Toby.
It was meant to trivialise skipping meals rather than the ED. Admit I didn’t make the point very well.
No worries mate, sorry if I sounded a bit harsh! I thought it needed saying though. Essentially my take would be that everyone is best off eating regularly, healthily, and eating what they like. Any fasting only works if you consume fewer calories overall. I've heard people who observe Ramadan say that they always gain weight as they binge after the fast.
Some have mentioned fasted exercise; assuming ones goal is to be better at climbing I'm dubious if this has much benefit. If you're a tdf cyclist and it's to give you an extra 0.5% for alpe d'huez fair enough, but we're in general talking about trying to get better at boulder problems / sport routes here, right? Maybe dropping a small amount of weight to get a long term project done, but as a life plan this sort of thing seems dubious to me.
-
At the risk of trivialising eating disorders even more [will me posting this make me responsible for scores of folk with ED suffering more or re-lapsing :-\, no I don't think it will], There are millions of people all around you - probably including friends and relatives - who, with a different perspective, could fit into the category of having an eating disorder. . People who intermittent fast aren't among them.
Also, there's a lot of credible research on gene expression, NAD+, Mitochondia etc. and the place of 'alternative eating protocols'. A bit like how the perspective shifted on smoking sometime around the early 2000s - from knowing it was unhealthy to being blatantly obvs that it was a fucking insane roll of the disease dice, I think we're rapidly moving toward a place where the current eating habits of the majority will be seen for what they are - clearly promoting ill health compared to other ways of eating.
-
You seem very certain about that Pete. What’s the definition of an eating disorder in your opinion then?
-
I edited the post above I think after your reply which may go some way to an answer.
But I think consuming high amounts of refined sugars in conjunction with high amounts of saturated fats is very likely to increase the probability of ill health of one kind or another, through chronic inflammation - however that manifests in disease. The science is fairly certain.
The average person's diet is high in refined sugar and high in saturated fat. That is my definition of an eating disorder - eating food that damages your health. Bodyweight (over or under) is secondary to the damage caused by the actual food consumed.
-
Yeah, that’s nicely trivialising an awful, soul destroying, mental health issue and conflating it with poor diet.
I think the “science” on that is pretty settled.
But poor diet does not an eating disorder make, however unhealthy the results.
-
Hang on Matt, maybe Pete could write a new description for the dsm V? Get everyone one on beetroot juice, keto, fasting, clean eating protocols. That should sort us all out 🤣
-
::)
There isn't any conflating going on here Matt.
Eating disorders (the DSM version) are indeed ''awful, soul destroying, mental health issue''. Fortunately they're also extremely rare, relatively.
The 'metabolic triad' - Obesity, Hypertension and Diabetes - are similarly ''awful and soul destroying'' to live with, but in a more chronic lifelong way and perhaps less dramatic way than a typical ED. The eating habits that lie behind the triad of obesity/hypertension & diabetes can in many instances be linked with emotional health. And the numbers of people affected are orders of magnitude greater than for eating disorders and cost the health service vast amounts of resources to treat.
But lets ignore all that, and lets argue against the person pointing out the blatantly obvious massive problem; and lets focus on the tiny number of people with a dramatic and awful mental health condition instead. ::)
-
Could it be that health issues due to bad diet is partly (mostly?) the fault of the globally multi trillion $ food industry?? That never lobbies??
-
Lobbying in/of itself isn't a problem. I expect your particular engineering speciality has some kind of lobby group TT for funding and resources. The tobacco industry infamously lobbied long and hard but ultimately lost after winning many battles. Lobby groups can't win when when the evidence for something becomes so clear (unless a government is so corrupt it can hide what it likes), and that's where I think the direction of travel is regards high consumption of sugar especially.
-
::)
There isn't any conflating going on here Matt.
Eating disorders (the DSM version) are indeed ''awful, soul destroying, mental health issue''. Fortunately they're also extremely rare, relatively.
The 'metabolic triad' - Obesity, Hypertension and Diabetes - are similarly ''awful and soul destroying'' to live with, but in a more chronic lifelong way and perhaps less dramatic way than a typical ED. The eating habits that lie behind the triad of obesity/hypertension & diabetes can in many instances be linked with emotional health. And the numbers of people affected are orders of magnitude greater than for eating disorders and cost the health service vast amounts of resources to treat.
But lets ignore all that, and lets argue against the person pointing out the blatantly obvious massive problem; and lets focus on the tiny number of people with a dramatic and awful mental health condition instead. ::)
Here's some relevant quotes from a BJSM paper (https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/50/3/154)
Even among female athletes the rates of eating disorder vary by sport and have generally been higher in sports ... where having a low body mass is seen as advantageous (such as cross-country or cycling)
In one study, 20% of female athletes and 8% of male athletes met criteria for an eating disorder, compared to 9% of female controls and 0.5% of male controls.
Climbing Magazine has a lengthy report (https://www.climbing.com/news/disordered-eating-poses-a-danger-to-climbers/) with some similar statistics.
Of that group, the number of climbers with symptoms of eating disorders was nine percent. In women, that proportion was 17 percent.
And only this week did I listen to Magnus Midtbo talking (https://youtu.be/AZC2JBeaXrw?t=1392)about struggling to focus, struggling to sleep, and being irritable, all as a result of attempting to maintain a low bodyweight for competition climbing.
-
Joel beat me to it.
Vanishingly rare within the general population. Massively over represented, by that standard, within our own and other sports. And even within this forum.
Pete, you are talking about a different thing, even if it does lead to long term issues, even if it is disordered eating; it is not an eating disorder. Saying that it is, just because it involves eating, is akin to saying a Coldsore is the same thing as Ebola, because they both involve viruses.
Or, to put it another way, present a person living on a poor diet, with a better one, they will eat it, when they’re hungry and their health will improve. Present an eating disorder sufferer, with the finest, most carefully balanced, nutritiously engineered, repast; they will continue to (effectively) starve to death.
Plus, I reckon you’ve really pissed off and belittled people who are reading this thread and, in doing so, caused harm, because you HAVE conflated a blatent matter of willpower, oppressive marketing and convenience, with a genuine mental illness.
-
Lobbying in/of itself isn't a problem. I expect your particular engineering speciality has some kind of lobby group TT for funding and resources. The tobacco industry infamously lobbied long and hard but ultimately lost after winning many battles. Lobby groups can't win when when the evidence for something becomes so clear (unless a government is so corrupt it can hide what it likes), and that's where I think the direction of travel is regards high consumption of sugar especially.
????
No lobbying group in what I work as. Thank god!
A form of bribery that sits just above the law would be my definition of lobbying.
Have a look at the (well reported) power of the corn syrup trade in the US.
William Morris etc. May have been on a burning platform for 50 years or more. But look how much money they’ve made in the meantime (and are still making). Amongst the Best performing stocks of all time over that period I believe....
Ah.... opioid crisis in the US is another example...
And let’s not talk about Oil - who’s relentless lobbying will have irretrievably changed (for the worse) our worlds climate.
Yeah. Paying someone in power to change their mind is no biggy.
-
So, having just skim-read this thread...
Am I to understand that the bottom line is that those who have reported to having followed an IF regime have all been successful in loosing weight, and most suggest this is purely because it encourages a caloric deficit (and you pay more attention to what you eat)?
It would be interesting to view the macros, calories and weight trends of around 40 people who follow an IF methodology vs 40 people who just try to eat healthily, all of which train for climbing at similar levels, and see if there really is any mileage in IF beyond just being a methodology for intake management (see if IFers are more or less likely to binge etc).
To google scholar!
In the mean time, this looks a little like shooting fish in a barrel, but this meta-analysis >> https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00873.x >> suggests that maybe there is something in fasting for retaining 'lean mass'.
-
Plus, I reckon you’ve really pissed off and belittled people who are reading this thread and, in doing so, caused harm, because you HAVE conflated a blatent matter of willpower, oppressive marketing and convenience, with a genuine mental illness.
What a load of bollocks Matt. 'If' I've made somebody feel that way, and I sincerely hope I haven't, then they'll be fully capable of letting me know themselves; they don't need you sticking your righteous oar in.
-
This thread seems to have gone off on a poorly articulated tangent regrading the semantics of what does and/or should constitute an eating disorder.. but going back to the original post that kicked it off - I can't see how IF would in any way necessarily imply an eating disorder.
Pete - if I understand your point correctly I think it's (1) interesting and (2) possibly valid
-
Plus, I reckon you’ve really pissed off and belittled people who are reading this thread and, in doing so, caused harm, because you HAVE conflated a blatent matter of willpower, oppressive marketing and convenience, with a genuine mental illness.
What a load of bollocks Matt. 'If' I've made somebody feel that way, and I sincerely hope I haven't, then they'll be fully capable of letting me know themselves; they don't need you sticking your righteous oar in.
Bad diet is not a fucking eating disorder.
You are being a self-righteous pedant, pushing your own prejudiced view and trampling over the lives of others.
Put up your evidence that the medical world agrees that poor diet, or the “Western” diet, or whatever; is regarded as a psychological disorder, with similar treatment protocols; or grow up.
And, no.
The problem is, people don’t want to discuss, with someone so dismissive, their mental health. So, again, no, they won’t “let you know” they’ll just feel more diminished and lose another notch of self respect.
You’re wrong Pete. Completely wrong.
Again, poor diet is not an eating disorder.
-
How about the people who posted on this thread originally?
When I read about this last year I thought “That sounds like a bad idea, it’s going to be very hard to stick to and if you do manage to stick with it you’ve basically developed an eating disorder”.
Thirteen months on do the people who were going to try it still do it? Do you weigh more, less or the same as you did back then?
I tried intermittent fasting early last year, but only intermittently and never for longer than 18 hours at a time. It was mildly interesting in that missing breakfast was not the disaster my mum said it would be, however neither did I reach the higher state of consciousness the fasting zealots predicted. I didn’t feel healthier, happier or a better person, and it was completely unsuccessful as a weight loss strategy. In defence of IF, I had a lot else going on at the time which wasn’t helping.
In general, I seem less sensitive to diet manipulation than others report, perhaps because it’s not a disaster in the first place or perhaps I’m not naturally a fanatic about anything. I’ve never tried cutting sugar which would be the big challenge for me (meat and alcohol easy in comparison). I’ve a period of temporary bachelordom starting in April and this could be an opportunity to do something more radical if I could be persuaded.
Toby, I take your point about healthy lifestyle versus “diets”, however you are already enviably light (I’m guessing I weigh >15kg more for a similar height) and dropping 5kg has had a very marked effect on my performance and - holy grail - I’d love to be able to sustain this.
-
Plus, I reckon you’ve really pissed off and belittled people who are reading this thread and, in doing so, caused harm, because you HAVE conflated a blatent matter of willpower, oppressive marketing and convenience, with a genuine mental illness.
What a load of bollocks Matt. 'If' I've made somebody feel that way, and I sincerely hope I haven't, then they'll be fully capable of letting me know themselves; they don't need you sticking your righteous oar in.
Bad diet is not a fucking eating disorder.
You are being a self-righteous pedant, pushing your own prejudiced view and trampling over the lives of others.
Put up your evidence that the medical world agrees that poor diet, or the “Western” diet, or whatever; is regarded as a psychological disorder, with similar treatment protocols; or grow up.
And, no.
The problem is, people don’t want to discuss, with someone so dismissive, their mental health. So, again, no, they won’t “let you know” they’ll just feel more diminished and lose another notch of self respect.
You’re wrong Pete. Completely wrong.
Again, poor diet is not an eating disorder.
Total and utter righteous bollocks again Matt. ::)
I'm completely aware what the strict definition of an eating disorder is and what it isn't. It seems you're unable to grasp that I was playing on words by suggesting that eating in a way which is highly likely to be a cause of chronic ill health, is 'an eating disorder' - i.e. a disordered way of eating.
-
No Pete.
Words are important, especially when dealing with mental illness.
People get knocked down by things they’ed normally consider trivial. You even made a weak joke about wheter or not you’d upset people, then decreed you would not and went ahead and made a wholly unnecessary conflation of two very different things.
And when told why it was inappropriate, you doubled down.
You call me self righteous, for trying to mitigate your trivialising of a serious issue. I even apologised to you, in a pm, for coming across more harsh and abrupt than I’d intended, before you began the Double down routine; because I’d typed in the car between a funeral and a wake, left it too late to edit and realised I’d come over too strong much later.
So, enough pm’s.
I told you what the issue was.
-
I hadn't noticed I'd got any Pm's, so hadn't read them.It usually takes me a few visits to notice them.
'because I’d typed in the car between a funeral and a wake'
Maybe not the best timing..
Like I said, you don't need to assume the role of defender of anyone on here. People are able to disagree for themselves.
-
C’mon lads put the handbags away. Let’s face it Pete is wrong in the traditional context but right on his own terms, and barrows agrees with him so it must be valid