UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: duncan on March 09, 2013, 11:07:14 am
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This Sunday, The Castle will be getting rid of the Crispin Waddy-designed features bouldering wall (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10151286238297810&type=1) replacing it with... you guessed it yet another plywood and bolt-ons construction. Don't despair though, apparently we will also have volumes. Oh woopie doo, I can hardly contain my excitement. Just like all the other Clone Walls in London. It’s not just The Castle: Mile End have being going this way, The Arch/Biscuit Factory never tried. It’s like high street shopping, there is the illusion of diversity but, in reality, there is no choice. We get what the seller wants us to buy, what is convenient for them, not what anyone other than the ‘average’ customer might like.
From the perspective of someone wanting to train for the outdoors this is a rubbish decision. I want nasty, unobvious smears. I want crappy intermediates. I want awkward pockets. I want cracks! You know, like real rock. "A gentle reminder that you won't find any plastic, coloured and 'sticky out' footholds on any of the above (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21159.msg398214.html#msg398214) [long list of great routes]."
From the facebook comments, someone calling himself Rich 'Tricky' Hudson seems to think this reduction in choice represents progress. He has no business setting because he transparently has no understanding of (or, more likely, no interest in) the needs of people who climb on rock.
The only people benefiting from this are the setters for whom this will provide more and easier work and the management who find the features wall embarrassingly scruffy and difficult to keep clean. The only possible conclusion is The Castle management are not interested in providing a training facility for people who climb outdoors but prefer pandering to those that use walls as the currently fashionable alternative to gyms or exercise classes. Modern plastic-pulling climbers are frequently massively strong and fit, yet there has been no increase in the median route grade climbed in the last 30 years. Modern walls are rubbish for training people to climb on real rock.
How do we get climbing wall management listening and providing something of more use to people that climb outdoors?
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How about just speaking to them or emailing them :shrug:
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"We get what the seller wants us to buy, what is convenient for them, not what anyone other than the ‘average’ customer might like."
Unfortunately, climbing walls have to be a successful business. Therefore appealing mostly to what its average customer would like makes good financial sense. I would imagine that if the castle polled it users with a question like "do you want the old features wall or a massive works style comp wall that you see in all modern competition climbing" the answer would be pretty straightforward. Times are changing. Look at broughton. :wavecry:
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Thought this might be about a new blur album...
Sorry
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a massive works style comp wall
What, a wall which almost nobody climbs on most of the time but takes up tons of space?
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I was talking about what people want, not what they would use. ;)
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How about just speaking to them or emailing them :shrug:
Emailing? That's a bit 2007 isn't it? I posted on their facebook page of course.
Thought this might be about a new blur album...
Or an article in an old OTE...
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Climbing outdoors is the best training for climbing outdoors, no? Nothing like training on 'real rock' to get better at climbing on real rock!
Indoor walls help many people to train strength and techniques in a slightly safer environment, without the fear of coming a cropper on a bouldering mat, on a dodgy landing. Where do you climb outdoors if the Castle is your local wall, I live in south east now unfortunately, I find there is so little outdoor bouldering in the area I am surprised anyone climbing indoors in London actually climbs on real rock. My experiences of going to climbing walls in London (The Castle and Biscuit Factory) were that many of the people in there i.e. the bread and butter income for the climbing wall, seemed to be not from outdoor climbers - I spoke to a few people and they had never climbed on rock and the guys behind the counter said that a large proportion of their custom is from people that have never climber outdoors.
If climbing walls are to make a profit and therefore stay open and provide a training environment and resource for outdoor climbers as well, then they have to make sound business decisions. They have to cater for all their customers needs, and particularly provide what the bread and butter customers want, and if there is not enough demand for said features, then maybe it is time for the climbing wall to decide to progress and offer something that is going to be used by most of their customers, best use of space etc. If climbing walls ignore their largest client base, it won't be long before the volume of customers decreases, they stop making money, then they can't afford to get decent route setters in, then before you know it your local wall has gone down the pan, and risks shutting down and opening up opportunity for other operators to come in and open a better facility in your area.
Climbing walls are businesses, that provide a different experience for a variety of different people. Not everyone wants to climb outdoors on rock, it's a social thing to some people, and a nice alternative to slogging in the gym for others even though you may not like it. However, it is the demand for these facilities that is enabling so many new bouldering and climbing facilities to pop up around the country, and there are a number of walls that have opened in the last couple of years that offer great training for outdoor climbing with good quality route setting, that cater for climbers needs, but also provide an experience for those that have never set foot on an outdoor boulder.
As for your opinion on what anyone other than the 'average' customer may like or the needs of climbers who climb on real rock, how can you speak on behalf of them, what you may like to train on is probably very different from a lot of other people.
There are a lot of very good outdoor climbers that get their indoor training needs met by plywood and tiny screw ons and smears. If you can smear on plywood painted with matt finished paint, then just think how good it will feel smearing on actual real life textured rock.
I have climbed on a wall that sounds similar to the feature wall you are talking about, and frankly it was absolutely nothing like climbing on real rock. It was awful. I make improvements in my rock climbing when I actually climb on rock, which is all too rare these days, and a textured, dusty, greasy feature wall (that is permanent and cannot evolve or be reset) doesn't translate to climbing on rock (in my opinion). I think indoor training (for me anyway) is more about honing skills and developing strength, which can then be put to good use when it finally stops raining and I can get up north onto the grit.
Maybe you should find a group of like-minded folk and find a space where you can set up your very own indoor training facility, with a feature wall in it, if that is the training you prefer, or you could just go and find some rocks.
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I don't think it will change and looking outside at the drizzle I can see why new climbers stay indoors here. I think theirs a missing link, the missing link is where walls take their newer climbers out to the real world. Weekend real rock trips. Maybe that would help.
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Modern climbing walls are rubbish.
Most are. But some are forward thinking enough to have a bar, which makes up for their deficiencies, in my opinion.
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I'm so glad I have the foundry. Long live the wave!
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I think this (the features wall) is getting retained, just moved (something in my brain is saying outside, but that sounds crazy (though even more realistic for you duncan!))
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We get what the seller wants us to buy, what is convenient for them, not what anyone other than the ‘average’ customer might like.
i just notice that a very similar statement has been used by a couple of people who know the bussiness to answer exactly the opposite rant
Q: "why do we still get those featured panels that get polished in 3 years and make setting more predictable?, when now we can get more or less the same effect with wolumes, macro holds and micro screw-ons?"
A: "Because the developement of this product took quite a lot of money some years ago and as a consequence some wall builders are very hesitant to get rid of it - they'll try to sell it as long as it is possible."
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Duma I think you are right, they are moving it outside, better conditions for all those unobvious smears that Duncan wants!
After living in London for two years and climbing at the Castle almost exclusively in the Mezz, the panels and the wave (with one session on the features after a reset each month) I've moved back to Yorkshire and have am having my most successful season on the grit ever.
I've never bought this argument that indoor climbing needs to mimic what you want to climb outside; for me going to the wall is about getting stronger and better in a variety of ways (i.e. contact strength, finger strength, core, session endurance, power endurance, etc. etc.) and for me this seems to be best gained on steeper angles and poorer holds.
Blank panels and volumes allow for a very large variety in problem setting, fixed features do not. You only have to go to the Foundry and watch people on the wave putting their feet on the little smears without really looking.
Duncan do you forget to jam if you don't practice it indoors?
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Cracks and unobvious smears make you weak :chair:
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You need to move to Loughborough. Mr Randall has done the best job I've seen yet of building a decent training facility using flat plywood panels, largely by the expedient of using lower angles but smaller holds than is typical these days.
(He evidently has the offwidth roof cracks hidden away in some back room where they are not visible to frighten the casual visitor; at ay rate I didn't see them on my visit)
I made a nostalgic visit to Broughton last year, and it showed the obvious problem of a wall that you can't re-set or re-coat: the polish is horrendous. It may be excellent training for climbing at Stoney, but not for anywhere that you might actually go to enjoy the climbing.
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I climbed on that wall for years and enjoyed making and sharing problems with friends. It was never a means to get strong, unlike the wave. If people are not using it then it makes business sense to move it outside (I hear they are not binning it).
I was route setting manager at Mile End for 2 years and instigated the building of new walls to cover up some of the gash old DR walls. People complained when they went but beforehand I sat with pen and paper counting the number of people who actually used them during a busy night. The new walls now get WAY more use. Is this better for climbing outside :-\ I've no idea. I trained on that wall at the Castle and was weak.....I now climb at BoulderUK and am still weak
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The Westway has recently put up a bunch of featured wall including two cracks if you are interested.
To be fair to the Castle tho, there were plenty of cracks when I was there a few years ago, with what seemed a pretty good mix of walls, so not really sure what you mean.
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Fiend: sod off ;D But yes, true unfortunately....
Muenchener: thanks very much, glad you enjoyed it. As partners in the business we're all outside climbers so it's been important for us to make sure the walls/setting/holds are technical and hold interest to outdoor climbers as well.
Duncan: I feel your pain. It was such a shame to see Mile End lose those lovely finger cracks. I've spent hours and hours plodding up and down those over the years. It has to be said though, that I think I was about the only one that ever did it! Maybe that's why Brits are crap at cracks.... not enough old school mile end panels. Or is it no Indian Creek??
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i don't know the wall in question but I'll put in a vote against over-featured bouldering walls in general. In fact the only one which has lots of features on it that still remains decent that I can think of is the wave in the foundry.
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as far as my experience goes featured walls teach you nothing apart from how to climb on those particular walls, not much at all to do with climbing outside. this is mainly based on the featured wall at alien 2 in edinburgh, of which after about three sessions you learn the best foot placements and after that nothing at all is gained from any further training on said wall.
imo training is better on steeper walls and practice for outdoors is best kept outdoors, the two arent really interchangeable; training indoors does not equal training outdoors, but both can be just as beneficial to the other.
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I climb c80 % of the time on rock. Walls are a place of last training resort - but I much prefer smooth plywood and bolt/screw ons to pseudo natural effect or things like sandtex painted ply etc...
Plastic is plastic. It's always a substitute. IMHO The quality of the wall is influenced most by the problem setter - then the geometry of the wall itself.
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Slightly (okay massively) off topic but you guys seem to know London walls quite well - gonna find myself in central London for the next few days for work and will likely have Tuesday evening free, so which wall is the best for a few hours bouldering entertainment - both in terms of access from Regents Park area and the quality of fun I can have?
Cheers, Stu
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as far as my experience goes featured walls teach you nothing apart from how to climb on those particular walls,
You need to get down to Broughton, still the best place to get strong and the best place to train for limestone. There are good and bad featured walls though. The features at broughton may not change but there are about 500 documented problems or something stupid like that. I find with most ply walls there is so little room for creating problems to train one type of climb or hold (unless there's a boring systems board) so you end up trying the few problems at your limit by following the colourful blobs. Unfortunately feature walls are this is becoming less and less commercially viabciale for the reasons stated. I'd pro do the same if I were a climbing wall owner, but that doesn't make it less of a crying shame to see the good ones go down the pan...
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Message a bit fuducked as I'm on a phone but you get the gist
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was going to post similar regarding broughton.
You can't recreate the type of training you get here (feet on and finger strength, not throwing between plastic jugs whilst cutting loose!)
It just a massive shame that it right on the other side of Manchester to where I now live and thats its probably going to be knocked down at some point in the future
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I think there's an element of truth that the current trend for plastering walls with volumes is getting a bit overused now. I'm pretty sure that if you took two identical twins and gave them a year to train, both putting in identical effort and identical wall time, and one was only allowed to train on volume walls at the Works and the other only allowed on the wave at the Foundry, and then let them both have a font trip or a week of work on the grit I'd put my mortgage on the fact the foundry guy would be the one getting up the hardest shit. And not cos he won't have to queue for problems at the foundry either.
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Now you're confusing modern bolt on walls and too many volumes.
Jim, with all due respect, you're talking balls about broughton
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Now you're confusing modern bolt on walls and too many volumes.
+++++++++++++++1
the truth is a routesetter can do more or less whatever (s)he likes on a bolt on wall, this isn't exactly true on a featured one.
the "problem" lies more in setting for training vs setting with other priorities (fun, trend, competition needs, etc)
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(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8340/wallri.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/wallri.jpg/)
I very seriously nearly cried the day I saw the old Awesome Walls resin wall in bits in the skip. I grew up with this thing and as an addition to the board and conventional problems, it was brilliant. Also had the only dyno in the world that I could do but Crouch couldn't ;)
I'm welling up thinking about it. :'(
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Modern plastic-pulling climbers are frequently massively strong and fit, yet there has been no increase in the median route grade climbed in the last 30 years. Modern walls are rubbish for training people to climb on real rock.
But the grade for the upper quartile (those that use the new style walls to their full potential) has increased significantly. 8b just doesn't seem to be such a big deal any more, but it was 20 odd years ago. Also, the median grade is likely to be kept low by the influx of new climbers.
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My experiences of going to climbing walls in London ... the guys behind the counter said that a large proportion of their custom is from people that have never climber outdoors.
If climbing walls are to make a profit and therefore stay open and provide a training environment and resource for outdoor climbers as well, then they have to make sound business decisions. They have to cater for all their customers needs,
Both of the above are true but IMO cant be used to justify the poor training facilities that London walls provide since these customers don't appear from thin air.
Some London walls spend a great deal of time & money on marketing to people who might otherwise not show any interest in climbing. Their subsequent preferences are determined by what they are offerred/told by those same walls. There is then a feedback loop setup where people only want to climb on jugs because all they were offered on starting was ladders of jugs so that's what they're good at. The next generation then start on even larger jugs & so on...
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My experiences of going to climbing walls in London ... the guys behind the counter said that a large proportion of their custom is from people that have never climber outdoors.
If climbing walls are to make a profit and therefore stay open and provide a training environment and resource for outdoor climbers as well, then they have to make sound business decisions. They have to cater for all their customers needs,
Both of the above are true but IMO cant be used to justify the poor training facilities that London walls provide since these customers don't appear from thin air.
Some London walls spend a great deal of time & money on marketing to people who might otherwise not show any interest in climbing. Their subsequent preferences are determined by what they are offerred/told by those same walls. There is then a feedback loop setup where people only want to climb on jugs because all they were offered on starting was ladders of jugs so that's what they're good at. The next generation then start on even larger jugs & so on...
Where is your evidence for this? I'd bet that the average level is up over the years with most people not dicking around climbing VS on jugs and going straight to steep overhanging walls.
Bolt on holds do come in smaller sizes than jug.....for an example of this go to BoulderUK. It's route setters that are choosing jugs and volumes.
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Evidence? Tricky. Best I can offer is the difference in setting style between London and walls I've visited elsewhere.
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Modern Walls depend on how good the setting is, and I I have to say I wish us climbers in Manchester had a massive lead wall like the one at Ratho, which is ace.
Old skool concrete walls like the brilliant Broughton, have a draw which modern walls don't have. The permanence of the concrete holds mean that a climber can chart their progress over a long time, some current devotees have been cranking at Broughton for twenty years! Like other walls of its generation, it has become, in effect, an indoor crag. And it's pure class. You actually have to climb it, look for foot holds, use your climbing brain, get hold of real bits of rock, find resting positions, and use proper technique. It is a climbers climbing wall and for me offers the perfect antidote to pulling on plastic blobs, and will set anyone up in good stead for any British limestone crag.
It's still open, just, and can be climbed on Tuesday evenings and daytime any other day.
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Slightly (okay massively) off topic but you guys seem to know London walls quite well - gonna find myself in central London for the next few days for work and will likely have Tuesday evening free, so which wall is the best for a few hours bouldering entertainment - both in terms of access from Regents Park area and the quality of fun I can have?
Cheers, Stu
Hi Stu, just to echo what Thesiger said, Westway ( http://www.westwaysportscentre.org.uk/climbing/ (http://www.westwaysportscentre.org.uk/climbing/) )is your closest and will have enough bouldering in the back room to keep you busy for a visit, but if you have a bit of extra time Biscuit Factory ( http://archclimbingwall.com/biscuit/map/ (http://archclimbingwall.com/biscuit/map/) ) is a great facility and a nicer space to climb in, about half an hour on the tube by the look of it.
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Modern Walls depend on how good the setting is, and I I have to say I wish us climbers in Manchester had a massive lead wall like the one at Ratho, which is ace.
Old skool concrete walls like the brilliant Broughton, have a draw which modern walls don't have. The permanence of the concrete holds mean that a climber can chart their progress over a long time, some current devotees have been cranking at Broughton for twenty years! Like other walls of its generation, it has become, in effect, an indoor crag. And it's pure class. You actually have to climb it, look for foot holds, use your climbing brain, get hold of real bits of rock, find resting positions, and use proper technique. It is a climbers climbing wall and for me offers the perfect antidote to pulling on plastic blobs, and will set anyone up in good stead for any British limestone crag.
It's still open, just, and can be climbed on Tuesday evenings and daytime any other day.
:agree:
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Jim, with all due respect, you're talking balls about broughton
I think he's right.
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@CastleClimbing @gaz_parry featureless... pic.twitter.com/kLv9UdnOfk]https://twitter.com/tricky_hudson/status/311024032059367424]@CastleClimbing @gaz_parry featureless... pic.twitter.com/kLv9UdnOfk (https://twitter.com/tricky_hudson/status/311024032059367424)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BFD6tZQCIAEb0RY.jpg)
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I couldn't disagree with the original poster more. Modern climbing walls are far superior to the walls in the past in every way. Much as i think the wave is a great wall i think to say its good for technique is a load of bollocks. Follow a well set circuit around the works and you will learn far more technique than spending a day on the wave or any other old school wall. I think the comp wall is a bit specialised but that's due to how its set rather than the physical structure of the wall.
I think we can easily get nostalgia mixed up with quality, i spend days having an amazing time on the berghaus wall in Newcastle but its not a great wall, there was a good scene and it was a focal point for the NE climbers, but its not a great wall.
An interesting point about the wave is that i believe it was one of the first bouldering wall to set a trend of modern bolt on holds type walls. Until that point there had been a heavy reliance on features and fixed holds on the walls, i can remember Jerry fighting very hard to get the wall as unfeatured as possible to allow flexibility in the setting of problems. Surely a precursor to where things have got to now. Go and have a close look at it, there are not that many features.
I now climb on walls far more than i climb outside due to time restraints and think that, for pure enjoyment, they are so much better than before. However if i was still a serious climber i would spend all of my time on the motherboard/ schoolroom or similar as indoors is for getting strong and therefore you want to eliminate all use of technique.
Outside is where you learn to climb and no wall can ever replace that.
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I have to agree, I have fond memories of the bendcrete wall in Purbrook but my new wall in Paris blows it out of the water.
I think it depends on the route setter and the amount the wall is prepared to spend on holds. I get the impression that some walls are tied to one hold manufacturer, but my wall is free to choose and they are prepared to pay out for decent varied holds.
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At Craggy2, they have a feature wall (3 in fact; Grit, Slate & Lime) and they barely get touched. There’s a book of problems people have set, and it’s nice to warm up on – but for regulars, it’s 3 faces which could have offered 3 ever-changing panels.
For uber-newbs, it’s maybe an introduction to real rock insofar as having to find holds, not look for coloured ones. But in terms of actual training for outdoors, I think there’s more merit in building strength and technique on plastic then trying to learn certain techniques you only encounter outdoors. Creative route-setting can also involve jams, and several indoor routes have required smears. So aside from route finding (which you don’t really get as it’s often a case of choosing what not to use to make a route harder if challenging yourself on a feature wall) I’m not sure what else they really offer.
I guess an alternative is a features wall with bolt-ons which they have at several walls – but the issue with these is regulars learn where the best foot placements are and this can make the routes much easier.
I reference regulars as you assume the one-time visitors aren’t likely to go outdoors, so their need for outdoor specific training (whatever that is) is pretty low.
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At Craggy2, they have a feature wall (3 in fact; Grit, Slate & Lime) and they barely get touched.
I'd like to think there is a place for well executed featured walls.
Those 3 & indeed the one at the Castle however were never any good as IMO they tried to cater to too wide a range of abilities.
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FWIW I like both styles. I boulder a lot at the Indy wall just across the bridge from Bangor in Llanfair PG.
They've got a Livingstone curved resin wall and a centrepiece comp style section (flat panels and volumes). The standard of route setting here is the best I've ever encountered but I still really enjoy climbing on the resin wall. The permanent feature lines are superb and have not polished significantly despite being over 20 years old. There are bolt ons on it too, but I always prefer to do 'features for feet' on set problems as it feels more like real climbing.
When I first started going to walls back in the 80s (Richard Dunn sports centre in Bradford was a favourite) all problems were invented eliminates. I really enjoyed that creative process at the time, but these days just follow the colour dots of set problems - as an antidote to this, getting stuck into some semi eliminate lines on the feature wall is very enjoyable and absorbing. The climbing style is very different and much more subtle - I like that (probably because I'm crap at jumping between blobby pinches!)
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We (The Indy Wall, on Anglesey) are due for a big refurbishment this summer. We have a modern free standing plywood boulder and one resin featured one (with bolt ons), the latter is over 13 years old now and is pretty well worn. One of the options was to panel out this resin featured wall which was quite an attractive proposition.
However, after some thought I realised that this outdated yet great bit of wall could actually be a unique asset to us, providing something different to our competition, as well as this it is a great wall for coaching, especially for footwork when using features only for feet.
So instead of getting rid of our resin wall we are going to re-feature it, add more t-nuts and repaint it. Well done us! :smartass: This is of course could be an option for the other resin walls out there.
My point is that when done well (as already pointed out) such featured walls with bolt ons can be a real asset offering something a bit different from the generic panelled wall and one can never underestimate how much new or more novice climbers love to climb on something that they see as like the real thing, even if they are mainly climbing on bolt ons. In fact, with well set problems the resin wall is popular with most of our users and is a welcome break from some from the more power orientated steep panel problems. We mainly have mainly easier problems (up to Font 6c) on the resin wall with a mix of bolt on tracking problems and features for feet. Admittedly there are very few folk who climb only on features.
Basically I think having a mix of a well thought out resin boulder with bolt ons and one panelled boulder will offer wall users a far better resource to our users than two panelled walls. I also think that this gives the wall a little more character.
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Whoops...posted that before Panton posted his, apologies for any repetition.. :sorry:
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Hi Duncan,
I understand a few of the staff & customers at the Castle have made the same argument and got nowhere, so the climbing wall management are certainly aware of the issue, they just don't care, or rather, care more about keeping a horde of low-grade indoor boulderers happy.
I don't think it's even necessarily the merits of featured-walls versus bolt-ons, as every single redevelopment they've done over the last few years has been to make the bouldering steeper and less technically-varied.
To be fair to the Biscuit Factory, on the few times I've been it seemed like the setting was a step up from the Castle and Westway.
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I've been thinking about this question this morning and think there are some comparisons with the mountain biking world... at the time there was a lot of debate and negativity towards the appearence of Trail centres, forests and routes made specifically for mountain biking... lots of mountain bikers rubbished them.
10 years on and most mountain bikers have used trail centres and generally they are positivly viewed, these man made routes provide convenient, weather proof, mountain biking, they attract new blood to the sport, money into local businesses.
They are now largly just incorporated into the bikers options, they can still ride trad bridleways, get maps out and hit the mountains but if conditions are crap they can choose to hit a nearby trail centre for a fix of riding.
The parallels are obvious and I think its mostly a storm in a tea cup for climbing. Indoor walls will provide a nearby climbing fix, traditionalists will still do what they do outdoors but also have more choices to go indoors if they want. These walls will encourage climbing and a few will venture out doors with their skills and then relearn them on real rock. Wether the walls are sculpted unmarked walls or colour coded blobs walls wont really make much difference. Colour coding blobs take away one element of the unknown for new climbers, they look at the coloured holds and know where they should go. Its all still just climbing and all should be encouraged.
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I too have been thinking about this. I belive there is probably a big difference in the customer depending where the wall is.
So this will tend to effect the climbing surfaces/setting.
At Rockcity in Hull there are too few climbers to sustain the wall as a business so they have to encourage non climbers to climb.
They have featured bouldering, featured trad leading walls and featured top roping. The featured boudering gets used a fair bit because its a large cave/roof on jugs, the leading abit and the top roping a lot but none of it gets as much use as the new bouldering area with the circuits. However the 90's style overhanging lead wall rarely gets used except by one or 2 diehards training for their winter trip to Kalyiminos.
So in order get more customers and keep the business going out its coming.
I suspect most wall owners who generally are climbers have to think like this
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Ach you've got me started Webbo ;)
theres too few folks at Rock city, because its not very good! Sure it's much better than it was, but it's miles behind the other bouldering walls in the UK.
Sandtex / textured walls and in built features are fine for low grade shizzle, but for harder things they mean that route setters tend to rely on smearing on flat walls or tiny features for feet, so Often the problems can get a similar feel over time. On smooth untextured ply walls setters have to give small foot screw/bolt ons meaning there is more flexibility in the setting. It really winds me up at Rock city how all the v5 or above problems seem to rely on you having to smear on a bit of shitty sandtex painted ply - which is both unpleasant and quite different from climbing on real rock.
Sorry! Rant over :)
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I can't believe some people are actively campaigning to keep a featured resin wall. I'm so glad it's going. Hopefully The Castle might actually buy some new holds too, and not use the same hideous incut crimps and 3 greasy core slopers on every single problem they set.
The wave board is incredible though.
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I know you don't like the place Tom ( Too hard, Not trendy enough ;)) However I would be buggered if there more than 50 to 100 active climbers in the Hull area. So why target a wall strictly for climbers.
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The problem with most walls these days, as highlighted by Omar15, is the poor choice of holds available for route setters can make it difficult for route setters to set realistic routes which may be found outdoors. At the Leeds Wall, all the holds are crimps and it's brilliant for getting really strong shoulders, fingers and dynamic power and coupled with inventive use of volumes for roof and steep work requiring Brimham-esque technique also made brilliant training for the grit. It's a similar story at CityBloc but with more slopers and poor edges. Most other walls I've been to seem to have spent their entire budget on massive crap blobby slopers which usually have to be pinched in order to get any grip on them. All this does is make you good at big slopey pinches which you only find indoors and doesn't transfer well to outdoors where there are generally far fewer massive blobby pinchy slopers.
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I like climbing on crimps because I'm good at it, I therefore prefer walls that use crimps. When I go to walls where there are more pinches I get spanked, so I think these walls are rubbish.
;)
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Well, my finger strength has dropped off massively since moving away from Leeds and it's affected my ability to hold gritty holds so in my opinion massive blobby pinches (which I can now hold onto all day long) are crap training for outdoors.
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More seriously, I agree completely re: hold choice - ply walls are a blank canvas and it is down to the setters and the owners how good the problems end up being. It's also down to the customers to give constructive feedback where necessary; have you told your wall that you think they could do with buying some crimps?
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To be fair, no, but it'll be next on the list after persuading them to build a woody!
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All this does is make you good at big slopey pinches which you only find indoors and doesn't transfer well to outdoors where there are generally far fewer massive blobby pinchy slopers.
You should climb on tufas more.
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I don't have a strong preference either way, but do boulder at the Foundry a bit more than the Works.
One advantage that the featured walls like the wave have, is that there is a number of possibilities for your feet. This means that the problems can work better for a large range of heights.
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All this does is make you good at big slopey pinches which you only find indoors and doesn't transfer well to outdoors where there are generally far fewer massive blobby pinchy slopers.
You should climb on tufas more.
There don't tend to be tufas on grit boulders...
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That doesn't make pinches bad training though does it. Just bad training for grit boulderers. I pinched a bunch of holds at Malham at the weekend. (Though you're right, there are to many shitty blobby holds at most walls)
Anyway, we all know that the wave is best bouldering wall in the world if you're training for routes.
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I've trained and played on and off indoors at The Castle since the day it first opened, so have got rather used to the featured wall that is now no more (in its present location and perhaps form). As time has gone by I've spent less and less time on it, for various reasons, but one being that the rest of the place has got better. It depends to an extent of course on what one thinks of as outdoor climbing, but, for example, the slab problems are often excellent training for outdoor problems and routes of a similar kind. On the steeper areas there are plenty of holds of different kinds that can, with a bit of imagination, be used to develop finger strength in whatever way one fancies. Where The Castle and perhaps many other wall do fall down is in relation one issue Duncan raises - technical problems with crappy intermediates and dodgy feet. The slab has some of these to an extent, and there are some downstairs, sometimes. The Works in Sheffield is much better for this kind think, helped by the fact that all their surfaces are smooth / slippery forcing you to use the set holds most of the time.
But, overall, get a sense of perspective. As someone whose first regular wall was the Sheffield YMCA in the 1970s I'm inclined to say that on the contrary modern climbing walls are The Fast Show; Brilliant Kid s03e01 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kkDrmW_oHU#)
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ply walls are a blank canvas and it is down to the setters and the owners how good the problems end up being.
:agree: My biggest local wall, owned by the DAV, has two bouldering rooms. Both plywood panels with bolt-ons, but they couldn't be more different. The new one is modern style dynoing between blobs; the old one is densely covered with smallish crimps, tiny foot jibs etc. There are only a few predefined problems and all of them are feet-on-jibs. The new one is always busier; the old one is both better training and more fun. This is not only my opinion but also that of the Bavarian youth comp team, who are to be found in the old room several evenings a week.
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One advantage that the featured walls like the wave have, is that there is a number of possibilities for your feet. This means that the problems can work better for a large range of heights.
Depends on the featured wall - I often find the opposite. Many problems at the likes of the Foundry, seem to rely upon using the one good smear amidst the expanse of slick bulges (which always seems leave me badly bunched-up). Decent ply walls often have a scattering of tiny screw-on foot jibs to suit a range of heights.
Agree though about the plague of jump-between-the-slopey-pinches problems at many walls. With the crap weather at the moment I am very grateful for the Depot's wooden crimp circuit.
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Decent ply walls often have a scattering of tiny screw-on foot jibs to suit a range of heights.
This is why I like the Leeds Wall bouldering so much, there's always plenty of choice between the footholds on the problem and the green screw-ons for feet which allows all sorts of sequences to be concocted.
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FWIW my disagreement with the Castle replacing the featured wall with a plywood comp wall isn't really to do with the merits of resin versus plywood, as I agree that setting and hold choice can replicate a wide range of problems, but more that it further limits training possibilities at an already limited venue.
That resin wall was perfect for doing slower technical climbing, and various power-endurance/endurance circuits on. You could knacker yourself on the steeper parts and then try to find recovery positions and shake out. This was pretty important given they only have a handful of 12m walls which get very busy, so doing laps on them always feels unfair on other users.
Instead they've decided to add a steep bouldering wall to go with the 3 they've already got. I'm willing to bet the problems will fundamentally be repeats on what they set on those walls. This is in addition to London's newest wall being focused on this sort of steep bouldering. It's great if that's all you are interested in climbing outdoors, but not everyone is. On the otherhand there are only about a dozen boulder problems in the entire gym above v3 which aren't on overhangs, and 4 of those are crap traverses.
This just allows them to get more people through the doors in a venue that is filled to capacity every night.
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... It's great if that's all you are interested in climbing outdoors, but not everyone is. On the otherhand there are only about a dozen boulder problems in the entire gym above v3 which aren't on overhangs, and 4 of those are crap traverses.
I've seen good gains in overall strength that can be applied to vert problems from almost exclusively climbing on steeper angles (> 10 degrees). I've never been convinced that to get better at vert climbing outdoors you need to climb on that angle indoors.
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They are a business so surely the whole point is to get more people through the doors.
The idea of a privately funded wall as some kind of an altrusitic service to climbers is a non starter. Sounds like they are keeping a majority of paying customers what they want and trying to get new ones. Unfortunately if they loose a few along the way so be it. As long as numbers go up its a success.
I really cant believe that people still think that these walls are built to keep us entertained and help our climbing progress.
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Since climbing in gyms abroad where setters use coloured tape to mark problems and routes, I have started to wonder why uk gyms insist on setting solely by hold colour. This does tend to limit the types of hold available for a given route.
This also works well with more densely set routes on ply, as setters can add more holds (preferably small feet etc.) to a given wall space, and then use tape marking to set multiple problems using the same holds.
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Decent ply walls often have a scattering of tiny screw-on foot jibs to suit a range of heights.
This is why I like the Leeds Wall bouldering so much, there's always plenty of choice between the footholds on the problem and the green screw-ons for feet which allows all sorts of sequences to be concocted.
God thats so 2011 you know, things have moved on bouldering wise in West Yorkshire.
They are grey these days.
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:lol: Glad management haven't binned them off entirely!
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Since climbing in gyms abroad in the States (?) where setters use coloured tape to mark problems and routes, I have started to wonder why uk gyms insist on setting solely by hold colour.
I've seen - only from photos - that coloured tape is the norm in the US. Most walls in Germany/Austria set by hold colour just like in the UK.
Interestingly enough, the only two I've seen that don't - Thalkirchen in Munich and Tivoli in Innsbruck - are ones where high level comp teams train. They use lots & lots of holds, lots of tiny foot jibs, and tape a few set problems but mostly just leave people to use their (or their coach's) initiative.
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Since climbing in gyms abroad where setters use coloured tape to mark problems and routes, I have started to wonder why uk gyms insist on setting solely by hold colour. This does tend to limit the types of hold available for a given route.
This also works well with more densely set routes on ply, as setters can add more holds (preferably small feet etc.) to a given wall space, and then use tape marking to set multiple problems using the same holds.
Just looking at pictures of these walls gives me a headache. I suspect setting like this is easier for the route setter.i.e they just shove a load of holds in a bag with a roll of tape, rather plan what they going to set.
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Since climbing in gyms abroad where setters use coloured tape to mark problems and routes, I have started to wonder why uk gyms insist on setting solely by hold colour. This does tend to limit the types of hold available for a given route.
This also works well with more densely set routes on ply, as setters can add more holds (preferably small feet etc.) to a given wall space, and then use tape marking to set multiple problems using the same holds.
Just looking at pictures of these walls gives me a headache. I suspect setting like this is easier for the route setter.i.e they just shove a load of holds in a bag with a roll of tape, rather plan what they going to set.
+1, makes it look like the the bloody wailing wall
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Problem with using tape/tags to label problems is that it can go missing. Leading to ages spent working out unlikely matching / hand-swap sequences before an in-the-know local puts you out of your misery.
That said, coloured holds are no guarantee of identifiable problems. Last time I went to Leeds Wall, there were two areas that each accommodated a grey problem, a black, and a white.... which all looked grey. The lighting was on the blink too which didn't help the colour matching process!
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That said, coloured holds are no guarantee of identifiable problems. Last time I went to Leeds Wall, there were two areas that each accommodated a grey problem, a black, and a white.... which all looked grey. The lighting was on the blink too which didn't help the colour matching process!
I've a couple of friends who are red/green colour blind and they really detest having problems/routes set with these two colours on the same line/area. It takes them about twice as long to work out which hold to use and often miss holds (although to be fair one of the climbs like a sloth anyway so its a lame excuse).
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Last time I went to Leeds Wall, there were two areas that each accommodated a grey problem, a black, and a white.... which all looked grey. The lighting was on the blink too which didn't help the colour matching process!
We get that too, to a point where you have to identify routes by the hold manufacturer stamp. Helps memorising holds though.
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I prefer the tape solution to mark holds. You can have lots more problems in a given area sharing holds as discussed etc and if the probs are changed regularly tab/tape loss is less of a problem.
I think it slightly helps with real climbing hold remembering as you more often find your self mid crux trying to work out which is the correct foot, compared to when there is only one hold in the right colour. I think this is very analagous to being mid crux on an outside problem and having to remember the correct foot sequence.
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I think it slightly helps with real climbing hold remembering as you more often find your self mid crux trying to work out which is the correct foot, compared to when there is only one hold in the right colour. I think this is very analagous to being mid crux on an outside problem and having to remember the correct foot sequence.
Isn't that often what you get with featured walls though, which was part of duncans original point?
Too many big holds/volumes in the same place on vertical sections can result in twatting yourself if you come off in an uncontrolled manner.
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They are a business so surely the whole point is to get more people through the doors.
The idea of a privately funded wall as some kind of an altrusitic service to climbers is a non starter. Sounds like they are keeping a majority of paying customers what they want and trying to get new ones. Unfortunately if they loose a few along the way so be it. As long as numbers go up its a success.
I really cant believe that people still think that these walls are built to keep us entertained and help our climbing progress.
It seems to me that you're making the same assumptions as a lot of wall management & I suspect both are wrong.
a) they want to get more people through the doors
- whereas I suspect what they really want is to increase profit & most businesses would kill for loyal, paying customers
who come with no marketing costa..
b) new customers arrive with their climbing preferences pre-set somehow
- I don't see how they can if they've never climbed before, I strongly suspect that what they come to want is more of what they are initially offered so why not offer them (an easier version of )what established climbers want.
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Slightly (okay massively) off topic but you guys seem to know London walls quite well - gonna find myself in central London for the next few days for work and will likely have Tuesday evening free, so which wall is the best for a few hours bouldering entertainment - both in terms of access from Regents Park area and the quality of fun I can have?
Cheers, Stu
Hi Stu, just to echo what Thesiger said, Westway ( http://www.westwaysportscentre.org.uk/climbing/ (http://www.westwaysportscentre.org.uk/climbing/) )is your closest and will have enough bouldering in the back room to keep you busy for a visit, but if you have a bit of extra time Biscuit Factory ( http://archclimbingwall.com/biscuit/map/ (http://archclimbingwall.com/biscuit/map/) ) is a great facility and a nicer space to climb in, about half an hour on the tube by the look of it.
Cheers guys - went to the Biscuit Factory last night. Now time for 13 hours of pain on a plane
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It seems to me that you're making the same assumptions as a lot of wall management & I suspect both are wrong.
a) they want to get more people through the doors
- whereas I suspect what they really want is to increase profit & most businesses would kill for loyal, paying customers
who come with no marketing costa..
I suspect this isn't wrong at all. I understand where you're coming from with zero marketing costs but there's only so much money you can extract from the same ('loyal') people. With fresh blood you've got all manner of opportunities to make more profit (instruction, equipment etc.) as well as the chance they join your loyal membership and become steady income.
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I climbed on a few different nu skool walls this winter. As folk have said, it comes down to setting and choice of holds. For me personally, I'm convinced that doing more technical problems indoors at the Works has helped my outdoor climbing.
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It seems to me that you're making the same assumptions as a lot of wall management & I suspect both are wrong.
a) they want to get more people through the doors
- whereas I suspect what they really want is to increase profit & most businesses would kill for loyal, paying customers
who come with no marketing costa..
I suspect this isn't wrong at all. I understand where you're coming from with zero marketing costs but there's only so much money you can extract from the same ('loyal') people. With fresh blood you've got all manner of opportunities to make more profit (instruction, equipment etc.) as well as the chance they join your loyal membership and become steady income.
Plus that argument assumes there is no competition! We have a situation in Sheffield where a bigger, better, higher wall is apparently on its way. If other walls stand still, they will undoubtedly lose customers. They need to attract new ones and retain their current ones by offering something attractive. And that isn't the same old thing.
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i. munro
A business based on wringing every last penny out of loyal paying customers to pay for the, growth, changes, developments and improvements that the same loyal customers demand so they stay loyal, is one that needs to attract new customers.
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I suspect this isn't wrong at all. I understand where you're coming from with zero marketing costs but there's only so much money you can extract from the same ('loyal') people. With fresh blood you've got all manner of opportunities to make more profit (instruction, equipment etc.) as well as the chance they join your loyal membership and become steady income.
Not if your facilities become so biased towards providing what (you assume) your new customers require that you have no loyal membership for them to join. Several London walls are well into this territory now. For example it's becoming a rarity at some places to spot anyone who owns their own climbing shoes.
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For example it's becoming a rarity at some places to spot anyone who owns their own climbing shoes.
Where?
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It amazes me how many people I see down the local wall on a regular basis use hire shoes. Surely not scholars of economics, or having any sense of smell.
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I have been climbing at castle and arch in the past few weeks wearing hire shoes. This is because I have been forced to concede that my new shiny scarpa shoes are a size too small and I feel I should be made to suffer before shelling out for replacement replacements . . .
That said, I have definitely been in the minority.
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Rock is one thing, a climbing wall is another. A long while back wall builders in the know decided that after lots of attempts at trying to make walls look, feel and climb like rock, we just couldn't do it quite as well as nature has, so we largely gave up and for the most part started to use materials which were less expensive and disgusting to work with than fibreglass - i.e.: wood. These modern flat surfaces covered in holds and volumes are nothing like rock and are not supposed to be, but in the hands of a good route setter can be used to try and recreate movement that climbers use on rock, and so you can gain a training benefit when you use them. The best medium for learning to rock climb is still rock, and always will be.
As to your personal preference for plywood, fibreglass or sprayed concrete as a training medium, its horses for courses. For me, plywood is the most flexible medium and gives to most opportunity for a creative route setter to set some great problems. However, a good and thorough setter should be able to give you great problems whatever the type of wall, given a few decent holds to play with.
I don't think modern climbing walls are rubbish - far from it. They are brilliant compared to what we used to train on 20 years ago. I think that modern climbing has changed, and we seem much more driven to train inside than we used to. Maybe modern climbing walls are so good, easy to get to, comparatively cheap, well run and convenient for somebody with a few spare hours to do some training that we've forgotten that those few hours used to be the quick 'nip out onto the grit' windows we used to enjoy with far more regularity. A few hours bouldering on the crag is almost certainly a far better way to improve your climbing than going down the wall, but it does require a lot more effort, and nowadays its just a bit to easy to bag it off and go inside.
Maybe this thread should be re-titled "Modern climbing walls are brilliant, but they are ruining my climbing because I'd rather go indoors than brave the shitty British weather and risk going out."?
Bollocks - just read this back and have realised I have made a grave error. For gods sake, please don't stop going down the wall! I can't believe how stupid I can be..... :-[
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I hear what youre saying Percy and despite the thinly veiled sales pitch (cough) as soon as you make the decision that its easier to go inside than out youve crossed the line.
Please dont misunderstand me and think im having a go, Im not :)
Im just saying that as soon as you choose to go inside rather than out on the basis of "convenience" youve chosen not to climb but to trainEven if you dont agree with the specifics of what Ive written, Im sure you get the spirit of it.
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+1 Percy and Dolly
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Good post Percy. All completely true for most people. I used to go to Stanage or burbage most nights to do the same problems over and over, which was good at the time. Now I'll go to the wall instead since its far more convenient, gets me stronger for my plans that aren't grit orientated, and serves coffee. Time is a major factor too, risk an hr at burbage or climb for 2 at the wall? It's a no-brainer most of the time.
Modern walls are brilliant. Don't get me wrong I won't stop slagging them off, too much use of volumes etc.
As quite rightly pointed out outside climbing is outside
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I don't really agree re your post about crossing the line dolly. Most people I see at the wall are climbing not training. The ones that are training can be found looking sour-faced and not speaking to anyone near the motherboard, or conversely the circuit board but no-one talks about them
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Or to them
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The ones that are training can be found looking sour-faced and not speaking to anyone near the motherboard, or conversely the circuit board but no-one talks about them
Doh. That is exactly how I look.
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I've just read through this whole thread and there's a lot of it I agree with and a lot of it I don't. However, I think calling out specific people and questioning their ability to perform their job (or indeed comment on things) is really out of line. Have you thoughts and say on the issue at hand (the removal of the feature wall) but don't make it personal. That's not cool. Rich is a good guy and very good route setter who really cares about what he does and about making the Castle a better facility.
Having been a Castle regular for about six years now, I've had a lot of good times on the feature wall, but overall I'm glad it's being replaced. A lot of the T-nuts were knackered meaning that it was very limiting for the setters to set on that wall and keep the problems different or interesting. And of course, there was always the old faithful heel hook and knee bar get-out-of-jail-free cards (anyone who's climbed on the feature wall for any length of time know what I'm talking about). Yes, I've had some really good sessions doing features only problems, but they tended to be more about hanging out with friends than really training. I agree with everyone in this thread that says that featured bouldering is no substitute for climbing outside. It's really not.
The Castle has made a lot of changes over the last couple of years and the centre has hugely improved because if it. I'm looking forward to the new comp wall and the new Loft area. Granted they (clearly) aren't going to please everyone with this decision but I'd much rather climb at a wall that makes the effort to change, expand and improve than somewhere that stays the same year in; year out.
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I'm with duncan, it's a disgrace. It's not just climbing walls though, my local pool doesn't provide seaweed, murky water, jellyfish and waves to help me train for open water swimming, and I've had absolutely no joy trying to get an indoor tennnis court in London with a gusty wind generator and uneven bounce. It's not good enough.
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I'm with duncan, it's a disgrace. my His local pool climbing wall doesn't provide seaweed, murky water, jellyfish and waves to help me him train for south west trad climbing
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I've just read through this whole thread and there's a lot of it I agree with and a lot of it I don't. However, I think calling out specific people and questioning their ability to perform their job (or indeed comment on things) is really out of line.
The Castle has made a lot of changes over the last couple of years and the centre has hugely improved because if it. I'm looking forward to the new comp wall and the new Loft area.
Agree, naming Rich was needlessly personal. And Ben's the first person to mention the Loft! Have you seen it 'Duncan'?
The castle are expanding by about 40%!
The feature wall was of its time. We had some great problems on there and I used to love using the circuit to warm up before climbing on the wave. I used to love my old one litre Mini. I don't miss it.
Anyway, despite training in the castle i'm still getting better at rock climbing. If you reveal yourself 'Duncan' I can show you how.
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Tonight, as with many evenings nights, I shall be down the castle.
In years gone by, I would have been sat under the feature wall, spending hours making up problems and trying those that others had made. I'd have watched people new to climbing on the wall too, climbing a mixture of the coloured blobs and the fake plastic sticky out bits and pockets, heaving their overweight masses around atop flabby hire shoes.
Tonight, some of those problems that we did are now "classics"; the only people who can barely remember them a handful of 30-something year old opinionated dickheads still climbing in London. But even then, most can only vaguely remember the arcane and ridiculous rules accorded to the plastic-feature eliminates. This is because when they opened more walls, we moved on to things that were more flexible; where the walls could change, where new holds could be put on, smaller or crappier holds, or those miles apart and to challenge us in new ways.
I'll be sat under the wave this evening. It's steeper than the feature wall, and has more holds on it. Yes, I'll still be climbing eliminates I or another 30-something dickhead made up. Like before I'll still be watching fat people in hire shoes climb coloured blobs, although rather than having to share the space with them I can wonder from afar as the wave is too steep for them to get started on.
Maybe I'll visit the catacomb too - I fancy a trip to the cave of justice soon, and so climbing on a roof is a good idea. I could do with practising the footwork as it's a bit of an embarrassment.
The feature wall has had its day. Even were it still there I'd not go on it. Nor would most of the 30 something dickheads that used to live there. The modern walls are more flexible and more suitable for training as they aren't fixed; it's possible to set them (either by paying someone or climbing on a training board) with more variety.
As to the root question: are modern walls rubbish? Not in London they aren't. The castle isn't. Could it do with more training space? Yes it could. But I could also visit the board room at Mile End; the training walls at the biscuit, or whatever it is that they have at the westway (I don't do the west side, strictly an east side dude).
Anyone who thinks that the feature wall represents anything near the pinnacle of training for outside is (a) on crack, (b) a fatty in hire shoes, or (c) has never seen splinter.
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Anyone who thinks that the feature wall represents anything near the pinnacle of training for outside is (a) on crack, (b) a fatty in hire shoes, or (c) has never seen splinter.
:)
This demands a reply, as do several other posts, which will be forthcoming. Unfortunately the whoosh of deadlines flying past is becoming deafening and I have to do some real work today.
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Problem with using tape/tags to label problems is that it can go missing. Leading to ages spent working out unlikely matching / hand-swap sequences before an in-the-know local puts you out of your misery.
That said, coloured holds are no guarantee of identifiable problems. Last time I went to Leeds Wall, there were two areas that each accommodated a grey problem, a black, and a white.... which all looked grey. The lighting was on the blink too which didn't help the colour matching process!
White holds with dots and LED holds (http://seanmccoll.com/2013/03/new-hrt-systems/)
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Problem with using tape/tags to label problems is that it can go missing. Leading to ages spent working out unlikely matching / hand-swap sequences before an in-the-know local puts you out of your misery.
That said, coloured holds are no guarantee of identifiable problems. Last time I went to Leeds Wall, there were two areas that each accommodated a grey problem, a black, and a white.... which all looked grey. The lighting was on the blink too which didn't help the colour matching process!
White holds with dots and LED holds (http://seanmccoll.com/2013/03/new-hrt-systems/)
fucking hell those LED holds are mental, maybe the wall could do discos nights?
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Problem with using tape/tags to label problems is that it can go missing. Leading to ages spent working out unlikely matching / hand-swap sequences before an in-the-know local puts you out of your misery.
That said, coloured holds are no guarantee of identifiable problems. Last time I went to Leeds Wall, there were two areas that each accommodated a grey problem, a black, and a white.... which all looked grey. The lighting was on the blink too which didn't help the colour matching process!
White holds with dots and LED holds (http://seanmccoll.com/2013/03/new-hrt-systems/)
Mmmm....white holds? Small coloured stickers? Climbing chalk?......is it 1st April already?!....
The LED idea sounds good for comps, as I dare say it could work well at an outdoor comp like the Arco Rockmasters if they staged it at night? But really, I don't think they are going to appear as a commercially viable option for the majority of walls.
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don't know if this has been mentioned already, but if you want to climb on featured walls in london go to mile end's secret garden section.
btw we did have some featured wall at the arch once, don't know if you remember it... the small traverse section by the roof tunnel. No fun building it, no fun climbing on it, even demolishing it was no fun. Johnny liked it though :-\