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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Dolly on July 15, 2010, 02:35:09 pm

Title: Yoga for core
Post by: Dolly on July 15, 2010, 02:35:09 pm
I searched but couldn't find anything for this (on the forum I mean)
I know I can search online but I'd prefer to know of some exercises that anyone here can recommend from personal experience please ?
Obviously not climbing ATM and as a consequence of starting running again ( I think) my back is hurting again.
I know from physio and Zaff that one of the best ways to counteract this is with some core exercises.
I've got a physio ball which I've started using again and I do the sort of pelvic thrusting thing but would like to know of any others that you use or work for you...ta
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 15, 2010, 03:04:50 pm
try balancing on your buttocks. with legs and torso at approx 45 to ground. Once you are Ok with this put your arms up parallel to your legs. Repeat until you shake like a shitting dog.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Tim Broughtonshaw on July 15, 2010, 03:30:19 pm
try balancing on your buttocks. with legs and torso at approx 45 to ground. Once you are Ok with this put your arms up parallel to your legs. Repeat until you shake like a shitting dog.

having difficulty visualising this  :-\

Is this with the whole body straight like a plank? and then your arms parallel to legs..  ?  Think i need more coffee no matter how i visualise this cannot work it out. Think the shitting dog reference isnt helping :)


Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: chris_j_s on July 15, 2010, 03:39:09 pm
As I see it you're approximately trying to make a V shape with your body, your butt being the bottom of the V.

For the second part of the exercise do the same but point your arms up in the air parallel to your legs.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 15, 2010, 03:41:19 pm
He gets it.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 15, 2010, 03:41:56 pm
Something like this  perhaps :P

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/3149882094_cc75da0027.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54724780@N00/3149882094/)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 15, 2010, 03:43:02 pm
he doesn't get it.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 15, 2010, 03:48:52 pm
Is this the extension part  :P

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/445002087_9d98d902df.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7631011@N02/445002087/)

Then there's the Irish variation

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/375385283_1a9b80c897.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/irisheyes/375385283/)


More seriously its this shape but the otherway up so your arse is on the ground and your arms and feet are in the air (couldn't find a proper picture in the first five or six pages of results for yoga on Flickr)

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/190/457354477_dcfb9a39e8.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/myyogaonline/457354477/)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Fultonius on July 15, 2010, 03:49:50 pm
I do the sort of pelvic thrusting thing

I usually find a woman is better than a physio ball for these types of things.  :shag:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 15, 2010, 03:53:42 pm
Quote
Full Boat Pose (http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/finder/browse_categories/core)
Paripurna Navasana
(http://www.yogajournal.com/media/originals/7341-HP_214_Paripurna_248.jpg)

(par-ee-POOR-nah nah-VAHS-anna)
paripurna = full, entire, complete
nava = boat

Step by Step

Sit on the floor with your legs straight in front of you. Press your hands on the floor a little behind your hips, fingers pointing toward the feet, and strengthen the arms. Lift through the top of the sternum and lean back slightly. As you do this make sure your back doesn't round; continue to lengthen the front of your torso between the pubis and top sternum. Sit on the "tripod" of your two sitting bones and tailbone.

Exhale and bend your knees, then lift your feet off the floor, so that the thighs are angled about 45-50 degrees relative to the floor. Lengthen your tailbone into the floor and lift your pubis toward your navel. If possible, slowly straighten your knees, raising the tips of your toes slightly above the level of your eyes. If this isn't possible remain with your knees bent, perhaps lifting the shins parallel to the floor.

Stretch your arms alongside the legs, parallel to each other and the floor. Spread the shoulder blades across your back and reach strongly out through the fingers. If this isn't possible, keep the hands on the floor beside your hips or hold on to the backs of your thighs.

While the lower belly should be firm, it shouldn't get hard and thick. Try to keep the lower belly relatively flat. Press the heads of the thigh bones toward the floor to help anchor the pose and lift the top sternum. Breathe easily. Tip the chin slightly toward the sternum so the base of the skull lifts lightly away from the back of the neck.

At first stay in the pose for 10-20 seconds. Gradually increase the time of your stay to 1 minute. Release the legs with an exhalation and sit upright on an inhalation.

I just 'wasted' ten minutes trying to find a video of Shilpa Shetty demonstrating.  :greed:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 15, 2010, 04:06:48 pm
What he said, but with out the fit bird.

Try not to round out back though, or it can harm exactly what you are tying to fix. Contentrate more on form than duration 10 secs in a good pose is better than 30 in a bad one.

The yoga journal that JB has linked to has loads of good info, just take it easy as you can do more harm than good if you don't ease into it, and your form isn't correct.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Dolly on July 15, 2010, 04:18:45 pm
OK cheers for that
Been trying this at work just now for a bit and it definitely "pulls" in the right places and makes my back feel better/stretched
As you say have to be careful to keep your back straight as that seems to make it easier.

I have been "shaking like a shitting dog" as well  :)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: JamesD on July 15, 2010, 05:32:40 pm
Unstable swiss ball plank:

Unstable Swiss ball plank (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV1kWDX9wtI#)

However I recommend (for starting out) to leave out the medicine ball underneath your hands, and to rest your insteps on the ball instead of standing on your toes like this guy.
Hold until the shaking comes, then pull your knees into your chest with your feet still on the ball, hold until shaky, then go back to first step (repeat until knackered), I normally prefer to do this as a finishing exercise at the end of a core/ab workout, to push the muscles to failure/further exhaustion.
If you want to push it further, take one leg off, leave it up in the air, and pull the ball in on one leg, repeat for both legs, that ones a killer.

Next I would highly recommend the glute bridge, which is pretty much exactly the same thing, except you are now facing the ceiling instead of the floor with your heels instead of your insteps resting on the swiss ball, again...if you want to up the difficulty try taking a leg off and pulling it into you, then holding it out there.

Also try different types of crunches leg raise exercises, standard crunches, twisting crunches, weighted crunches (you may need a situp bench for this). With leg raises: Try standard leg raises, scissor kick leg raises (alternating legs up/down), holding the legs out just above horizontal, leg raises with a partner throwing your legs back down, also throw in some hyperextensions to work your spinal erector muscles (you will need the special bench/platform to do this from), try these with weight if possible, but build up to it over time.
All these yoga positions are great, but they are no substitute for the above, and should be considered supplementary rather than your main form of core exercise.
Also deep squats on a wobble board are excellent for your core, and improve ankle strength/stability, which could save your ankle tendons in a nasty bouldering fall.

All the above will give you a good combination, and really work your core effectively  because you will be working the muscles through a good range of motion as well as performing static holds.
When you're feeling brave I also highly recommend weighted crunches, and decline weighted crunches, just make sure you have someone spotting you, chinning yourself with 2 20kg plates is not pleasant!
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 16, 2010, 09:34:42 am
Interesting yoga you describe there James :)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: JamesD on July 16, 2010, 10:03:46 am
No yoga at all  :P

Don't get me wrong, I like yoga, I do it too sometimes, and I have done it regularly in the past, but if you want an effective "core" workout, and hardcore core strength, then you need to target the muscles in other ways, with heavier loads, and through different ranges of movement.

In my humble opinion  ;)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: gianweb on July 16, 2010, 11:39:29 am
(http://www.marcophysio.com/images/pilates_14.jpg)

The ball is definetely the best solution, you need to know how to use it though!
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 17, 2010, 07:05:41 pm
There are lots of people at the wall who do yoga.  For 99.9% of them, this is true:

(http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af317/sgruff/Picture1.png?t=1279389890)

Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 17, 2010, 07:41:46 pm
Pray do enlighten me.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: shark on July 17, 2010, 08:08:47 pm
There are lots of people at the wall who do yoga.  For 99.9% of them, this is true:

(http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af317/sgruff/Picture1.png?t=1279389890)


 :-\ If you are doing yoga at the expense of climbing or training training then it might hinder your climbing performance but otherwise its a beneficial active rest option especially for those with cores of jelly, the chronically inflexible, the posturally contorted and the muscularly imbalanced - and most of us fall into at least one of those categories. Accepted there are alternatives to yoga to deal with those issues.
 
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 17, 2010, 10:13:05 pm
There are lots of people at the wall who do yoga.  For 99.9% of them, this is true:

(http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af317/sgruff/Picture1.png?t=1279389890)

You could say the same for climbing walls in my experience.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: a dense loner on July 18, 2010, 09:00:34 am
lund is quite perceptive here, the people that go to the wall and make it known to everybody that they do yoga by stretching out b4 n after in various poses etc are invariably shit at climbing. ok they may be shit at a wall n maybe go out and cruise E5's on grit but they are shit at a wall, this is also climbing.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 18, 2010, 10:22:22 am
Yeah, shit like Yuji. Crap indoors and out that guy. Not good all rounders like Dense.

FREE RANGE TURKEY_dispatch #7 (http://vimeo.com/11457185)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 18, 2010, 10:25:37 am
So beacuse you have seen some people go to the wall and do a bit of yoga stretches and climb badly, therefore Yoga makes you climb like shit.

Great leap of logic sherlock.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 18, 2010, 10:29:58 am

 :-\ If you are doing yoga at the expense of climbing or training training then it might hinder your climbing performance but otherwise its a beneficial active rest option especially for those with cores of jelly, the chronically inflexible, the posturally contorted and the muscularly imbalanced - and most of us fall into at least one of those categories. Accepted there are alternatives to yoga to deal with those issues.

See, I don't agree.

I'm not sure I'd say that it's accepted everywhere, but I think opinion is now swinging against stretching, i.e. that in order to get your muscles and tendons warmed up and to a length where you won't get injured, it's better to do the actual exercise.  So easy climbing.  In terms of increased flexibility, yes it can help - but it's probably better to just stretch rather than fuck around keeping your anus soft.

Core strength: I'd say yoga was a pretty weak option for this.  There are only a few positions that are any good; why spend ages trying to put your knees by your ears when you should be experiencing abdominal pain?  Try this instead: http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/ (http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/) for example.  If you really must give someone else money, go to a pilates class.  And for chrissakes, stop doing situps.

Muscle imbalances?  I can't see yoga helping for this either.  We spend forever using the back, core, forearms, biceps... so any muscle imbalances e.g. in the triceps - are going to need work at some point yes.  I can't see how yoga is going to compensate for that though; if there is a real imbalance that really needs sorting I probably need to do something a lot more muscle intense, like the weight room, or getting a theraband or something.

Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 18, 2010, 10:35:24 am
So beacuse you have seen some people go to the wall and do a bit of yoga stretches and climb badly, therefore Yoga makes you climb like shit.

Great leap of logic sherlock.

Jeez, get over yourself.  The climbing walls round here are full of punters trying to put their leg behind their ear.  Some of the chicks are really hot, and it's getting to the point where I can't climb sport without a bird at the base of the route standing on her head.  Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.

That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga.  So they'd be better off doing something else.  Unless it gives them zen powers or some shit which I guess you have to be a true yogi to get, right?

I guess you do yoga.  Why?  Why did you choose that?  Did you honestly honestly think about how it would help your climbing - or did you just drift into it because everyone said so?  Or is it nothing to do with your climbing, and you just do it because you like it?  That's cool, no problem with that.  What I've a problem with is that yoga is good cross training for climbing, because from what I can see, it isn't.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 18, 2010, 10:52:18 am
Wow. What a load of uninformed shite!

Most climbers have bad posture. Most climbers are not as flexible as they could/ should be. Most climbers have muscle imbalances that lead to shoulder/ elbow problems. Most climbers have poor core strength. Yoga helps with all these. Most climbers would benefit from doing some.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Norton Sharley on July 18, 2010, 10:56:07 am
 :agree:

I suppose what works for one man doesn't for another.  But I bet if you did a load of yoga you'd benefit from it Lund.  And not just spiritually  ;)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 18, 2010, 11:05:32 am
I should add I find yoga really tedious, but doing it enables me to climb more and at a higher level. I'd never do it for its own sake.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 18, 2010, 11:39:23 am
Wow. What a load of uninformed shite!

Most climbers have bad posture. Most climbers are not as flexible as they could/ should be. Most climbers have muscle imbalances that lead to shoulder/ elbow problems. Most climbers have poor core strength. Yoga helps with all these. Most climbers would benefit from doing some.

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?

Let's take the core strength one.
- the premise is bobbins.  Most climbers have excellent core strength - they just need to improve it to get better.  Don't believe me?  Next time you do a pull up, try and work out how much core strength you're using; you'll be surprised I bet.
- I don't see how yoga is the best way to build core strength.  Or even a good way.  If I do some digging on core strengthening on the interweb, which is always right as we know, yoga doesn't come up.  (Or at least, it didn't before I got bored looking.)

I have done yoga.  I'm not bad at it, if I say so myself.  But I gave up because it was wasting my time - when my aim was to get good at climbing.

P.S. in a previous post, I said I disagreed with shark - when in fact I mean to put agree.  Yoga's fine, and if you like it, more power to your elbow.  But it your goal is climbing, well, you're wasting your time and should do something else.  Unless you really like it and get some zen powers climbing hard trad.  Which is way cool if so, and would make me take it up again.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 18, 2010, 11:42:20 am

 :-\ If you are doing yoga at the expense of climbing or training training then it might hinder your climbing performance but otherwise its a beneficial active rest option especially for those with cores of jelly, the chronically inflexible, the posturally contorted and the muscularly imbalanced - and most of us fall into at least one of those categories. Accepted there are alternatives to yoga to deal with those issues.

See, I don't agree.


Should have put that I DO agree with this - or at least mostly.  Sorry shark.  Playing fast and loose with the keyboard in my excitement.

- if you do at the expense of training, you'll get shit
- it's a decent active rest (and I'd emphasise that)
- there are lots of alternatives (and I'd say they were better).

Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: chris05 on July 18, 2010, 11:51:43 am

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?


I'm not sure you are in a position to criticise other people's arguments after your previous statements:

"Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.
That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga".
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 18, 2010, 11:56:40 am

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?


I'm not sure you are in a position to criticise other people's arguments after your previous statements:

"Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.
That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga".

What's wrong with that?

Two groups that go to the wall A and B

group A does yoga, and is uniformly shite
group B does not do yoga, and is not uniformly shite

Therefore... yoga makes you shite?

I feel like I'm trying to convince a truck load of born again Christians that there is not God.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: chris05 on July 18, 2010, 12:06:00 pm

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?


I'm not sure you are in a position to criticise other people's arguments after your previous statements:

"Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.
That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga".

What's wrong with that?

Two groups that go to the wall A and B

group A does yoga, and is uniformly shite
group B does not do yoga, and is not uniformly shite

Therefore... yoga makes you shite?

I feel like I'm trying to convince a truck load of born again Christians that there is not God.

I dont do yoga, I tried it and found that I'd need to devote quite a lot of time to it to get much better and so decided to spend my time trying to climb more. I like the way you are trying to compare your observations to an experiment with groups and everything (!). Firstly I'm afraid I don't believe that these two groups exist (happy to agree to differ on this) and secondly, you cannot say that its the yoga which is causing the shiteness, it could be any number of factors. Anyway I dont want to get embroiled in a silly internet argument, I was just surprised to see you criticise someone else's arguments when your own are not that strong.

rant over! :P
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 18, 2010, 12:07:30 pm
Lund, your main point seems to be that most climbers who go to the wall are shit. You don't need to do yoga to climb hard, I think that is obvious. Many people find it helpful, though you haven't met them. Did you watch the Yuji vid? Maybe try conducting your idiotic surveys at 'the crag' sometime. Its like the wall, but outdoors.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 18, 2010, 12:08:54 pm

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?


I'm not sure you are in a position to criticise other people's arguments after your previous statements:

"Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.
That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga".

What's wrong with that?

Two groups that go to the wall A and B

group A does yoga, and is uniformly shite
group B does not do yoga, and is not uniformly shite

Therefore... yoga makes you shite?

I feel like I'm trying to convince a truck load of born again Christians that there is not God.

The problem is that groups A and B are not mutually exclusive, because you are assuming (implicitly, even if its not what you meant to do) that because group B don't bust some yoga out before climbing at the wall when you see them that they don't do any yoga.  Its entirely possible that they use it as active rest and do yoga when they're not at the wall for you to oggle them, and that as a consequence they've got better flexibility etc. etc.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 18, 2010, 12:13:11 pm
And even if there is a correlation, I'd like to hear Lund's theory for the causation he so boldy implies.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 18, 2010, 12:18:22 pm
And even if there is a correlation, I'd like to hear Lund's theory for the causation he so boldy implies.

 :agree:
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png) (http://xkcd.com/552/)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 18, 2010, 12:29:13 pm
My theory: they start crap, see loads of fancy pants people doing yoga, and spend time they need to be climbing and training doing yoga instead of climbing and training.  The yoga displaces the work they need to put in to not be shit.

This is point A.

Point B is that there are much better things to do than yoga if you're after cross training, or recovery training, or whatever.

I understand that there are exceptions to every rule.  That the chap in the video can be ace despite doing yoga.  In much the same way that bolt can break the world record after eating chicken mcnuggets.

I also understand that when people start saying shit like "oooh, maybe you should go to a CRAG" that their arguments are weak.  I'm not going to spit out my fucking climbing CV except to say that I've been to a few outdoor venues, and that for the record, I have done some stuff on grit.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Paul B on July 18, 2010, 12:43:56 pm
I have to say that if I take one climber I know, lets call him 'R' and I'll be 'P'. R is much better at rockovers than 'P' simply because of his hips being opened up during yoga.

There are lots of issues as JB has rightly pointed out that are seemingly adressed by yoga. You only have to look at 'diet training and injuries' to confirm that these kind of injuries are prolific withing UKB. Yes there are better (or other) ways of addressing core strength, flexibility and posture but this doesn't mean yoga isn't a worthy addition to some peoples training.
Obviously replacing all of your training with supplementary exercises such as yoga is foolish but so too is ignoring areas of weakness or imbalance, shirley?

I know I'd benefit.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: meatball on July 18, 2010, 01:04:46 pm
Lund, do you mean that people who are starting out climbing should not do yoga because it will only compound their 'shitness'? Or on a more general level, that people who have a good base of experience will not benefit from Yoga? (not meaning said people do any less climbing, just doing Yoga to supplement their usual routine)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: a dense loner on July 18, 2010, 03:29:00 pm
my opinion was meant for the real world where the 20 or so people i've seen at the wall doing yoga were shit, this is good enough stats to get in an advert so its good enough for ukb. i apologise to yuji, who has been at the top of his game for 20 years
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 18, 2010, 03:34:33 pm
Quote
My theory: they start crap, see loads of fancy pants people doing yoga, and spend time they need to be climbing and training doing yoga instead of climbing and training.

My theory: these people who annoy you so much are not climbing to get good, or strong, they just do it as a bit of healthy exercise. As they do yoga. If you don't want to get annoyed, perhaps get a fucking grip, or try a wall with a more serious clientele. You know the type - they're strong as fuck, but don't believe in stretching, and are shit outside but that's all going to change when they finish this training cycle... you'd fit right in I'm sure.

Quote
I have done yoga.  I'm not bad at it, if I say so myself

Sound like you really grasped the point of it too.

Quote
I'm not going to spit out my fucking climbing CV except to say that I've been to a few outdoor venues, and that for the record, I have done some stuff on grit.

But you've never met a good climber who does yoga. Or at least not one who does it in front of you. You've assumed the rest.

Quote
That the chap in the video can be ace despite doing yoga

Hilarious. Yuji, good DESPITE doing yoga.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Somebody's Fool on July 18, 2010, 03:51:46 pm
Lund. Have you recently been dumped by a yoga teacher?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Dolly on July 18, 2010, 10:59:47 pm
Quote
Lund. Have you recently been dumped by a yoga teacher?

 ;D LOL

Lund you say
Quote
Most climbers have excellent core strength
Funnily enough I always thought that I'd got pretty good core strength- I'm 45 and I've been climbing for a long time and I just assumed that because I could climb OK and was thin and all that, that it wasn't an issue for me. Since knackering my back I've learned that I've only got good core strength in specific areas.
I learned that I have overdeveloped lats (in common with a lot of climbers) and that I use these to sit up from a chair (for example) rather than relying on deeper core muscles - therefore the core muscles that would be otherwise used for this relatively straightforward activity are underdeveloped. (I understand that this is a known phenomenon) In one sense the body is quite simple and just chooses the path of least resistance. If its lats are strong then it will use those -why bother with the other "weaker muscles.

Maybe there's more to this than first meets the eye/back ?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Carnage on July 19, 2010, 04:11:21 am
Back on topic, I used to suffer from lower back pain alot and after assessment, got put on a set of very basic pilates exercises by my physio.  I thought I had a pretty strong core but after getting utterly schooled by her on some of the simple core strength tests, I realised that I had a few deficiencies.
I have now done these excercises religiously for the last 8 weeks and my back has started to show a marked improvement. I am seeing a general increase in my core strength and at last assessment I was able to perform some of the tests without shaking like the aforementioned shitting dog.
Its worth having a chat with someone who really knows their stuff in this area as learning good form and finding out whats right for you is very important. The one thing I did learn is while your back is painful/weak, you should avoid any exercise that involves holding both legs in a straightened position (straight leg raises, levers, L-hangs etc) as these place alot of strain on the lower back. Stick to doing them with knees bent.  I'm not saying it'll do anything for your climbing but it may well stop your back hurting which is what I thought you were looking for in the OP. :)
Also, if it the running thats doing it, consider getting your running style/shoes assessed as using worn out/incorrect shoes and poor style can often contribute to back pain.

Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Norton Sharley on July 19, 2010, 07:53:41 am
The one thing I did learn is while your back is painful/weak, you should avoid any exercise that involves holding both legs in a straightened position (straight leg raises, levers, L-hangs etc) as these place alot of strain on the lower back.

Agreed.  Unless you do the exercise with a solid core and good posture which then protects your back.  I can't imagine where one would learn such techniques?

Pardon my ignorance but isn't Pilates just a posh modern name for a set of minor variations on some exercises that some asian folk have been doing for thousands of years?

What are these better cross training activities you speak of Lund?  And how shite does shit have to be so we can point out some shit climbers who are shit despite doing yoga rather than as a result of that shit helping? 

Personally I like the lying down and falling asleep bit at the end of a good group yoga session -  :beer2:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: shark on July 19, 2010, 09:54:21 am
Back on topic, I used to suffer from lower back pain alot and after assessment, got put on a set of very basic pilates exercises by my physio.  I thought I had a pretty strong core but after getting utterly schooled by her on some of the simple core strength tests, I realised that I had a few deficiencies.
I have now done these excercises religiously for the last 8 weeks and my back has started to show a marked improvement.

Same for me. I was advised to do yoga by the physio who kept dealing with a recurring L2 vertebrae problem. I have had lower back problems for 30 years. Doing yoga and deadlifts over the winter and spring meant my back never felt so good. It also meant that I cope with more training as my back didnt give way which tended to happen when I did a lot of training/climbing.

I was very sceptical about yoga but discovered the other benefits ie posture, flexibility, core. I'm sure the breathing stuff could be usefully applied too. The fact that there was a 7.30am class on my doorstep meant that it didnt interfere with anything else either. I really should start going again  :-\ 
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: psychomansam on July 19, 2010, 10:02:05 am
Back on topic, I used to suffer from lower back pain alot and after assessment, got put on a set of very basic pilates exercises by my physio.  I thought I had a pretty strong core but after getting utterly schooled by her on some of the simple core strength tests, I realised that I had a few deficiencies.
I have now done these excercises religiously for the last 8 weeks and my back has started to show a marked improvement. I am seeing a general increase in my core strength and at last assessment I was able to perform some of the tests without shaking like the aforementioned shitting dog.
Its worth having a chat with someone who really knows their stuff in this area as learning good form and finding out whats right for you is very important. The one thing I did learn is while your back is painful/weak, you should avoid any exercise that involves holding both legs in a straightened position (straight leg raises, levers, L-hangs etc) as these place alot of strain on the lower back. Stick to doing them with knees bent. I'm not saying it'll do anything for your climbing but it may well stop your back hurting which is what I thought you were looking for in the OP. :)
Also, if it the running thats doing it, consider getting your running style/shoes assessed as using worn out/incorrect shoes and poor style can often contribute to back pain.

We can all generally afford a reasonably healthy and protein rich diet. I think for most people, getting stronger isn't a big issue as we're well serviced with walls and training aids. If we're really lucky we can even get off the walls and climb on rock once in a while.

But how many of us would be climbing fucking grades and grades harder if we weren't constantly getting injured or nursing/recovering from injuries? Definitely makes a difference to most peoples climbing at some point. There's a reason most great sportspeople started while we were still trying to work out which hole to crap out of. I think with climbing especially, starting young and slow prevents injury.

Personally i think they should let athletes chug whatever shit they want, it's having a personal physio that's cheating. Rant over!

 :boohoo: I know i know



Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: shark on July 19, 2010, 10:13:16 am
The climbing walls round here are full of punters trying to put their leg behind their ear.  Some of the chicks are really hot, and it's getting to the point where I can't climb sport without a bird at the base of the route standing on her head.  Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.

Which climbing walls are these?. Static resistance type stretching* before climbing has been shown to decrease strength performance. I can't ever recall anyone doing yoga stretches at the Foundry before or after except for ones that have obvoiusly part of some corrective physio advice. Is this at the London walls by any chance ? Maybe its some show-off thing going on as in - I can't climb well but I can attract attention doing the splits ? A good climber who did yoga might not feel the same urge.

* However, ballistic stretching was being strongly advocated by Dave Binney at a BMC Youth Climbing event I went to on Saturday.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: JamesD on July 19, 2010, 10:55:09 am
Prolonged static stretching before any bout of hardcore exercise is a bit stupid in my opinion, if anything because doing it properly is actually quite tiring!
A good warm-up, some brief dynamic stretching, and then get the hell on with it.
Lund what is it about flexible people you find so offensive, is it just jealousy?
You know what they say about most homophobes don't you? They're just jealous  ;)

On a side not though, i'm not an amazing climber/boulderer/whatever you want to label it, in fact i'm quite a big guy (pushing 17 stone at the moment) which means despite a decent level of strength it's taking longer to improve my power to weight ratio than the average guy, and my yoga experience probably totals no more than 10 sessions over the last year. However thanks to a good few years being involved in martial arts when I was younger, I am still able to do the splits, hold either leg vertically, and a few other  not so remarkable flexibility feats, does that mean that I will remain a really shit climber?
Or does it mean i'll be able to heel hook that nice sloper which other less flexible people cannot reach, saving valuable upper body strength for harder parts of a problem?
Please let me know when you can prove why and how my flexibility will start hampering my climbing  :shrug:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Serpico on July 19, 2010, 11:23:34 am

* However, ballistic stretching was being strongly advocated by Dave Binney at a BMC Youth Climbing event I went to on Saturday.

Ballistic or dynamic? I've never heard anyone recommend ballistic stretching, it's generally considered quite dangerous.
Have opinions changed (again)?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: shark on July 19, 2010, 11:33:20 am

* However, ballistic stretching was being strongly advocated by Dave Binney at a BMC Youth Climbing event I went to on Saturday.

Ballistic or dynamic? I've never heard anyone recommend ballistic stretching, it's generally considered quite dangerous.
Have opinions changed (again)?

Probably dynamic. Sorry. I didnt see them warming up so cant describe it.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Norton Sharley on July 19, 2010, 12:09:08 pm
I used think I'm a shit climber because I'm short, weak, fat, drink too much and occasionally go ballistic but now I know it's because I do the odd bit of stretching which vaguely resembles yoga.   Not at the wall mind, that'd just be posing.  ;)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 19, 2010, 12:16:21 pm
Yup, anyone who does any stretching anywhere near the wall is only doing because they are a shit climber and need to do it to show off, and it's the stretching that made them shit.

The utter crassness of this theory is so  stupid.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Dolly on July 19, 2010, 12:40:54 pm
Quote
Its worth having a chat with someone who really knows their stuff in this area as learning good form and finding out whats right for you is very important. The one thing I did learn is while your back is painful/weak, you should avoid any exercise that involves holding both legs in a straightened position (straight leg raises, levers, L-hangs etc) as these place alot of strain on the lower back. Stick to doing them with knees bent.  I'm not saying it'll do anything for your climbing but it may well stop your back hurting which is what I thought you were looking for in the OP. :)

Yep cheers for that.
I think my running stlye/gait is OK - its been analysed and is apparently neutral. Shoes are OK as well.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: lagerstarfish on July 19, 2010, 03:10:17 pm
Are there any stats available for which yoga poses / stretches impress people the most? I'm thinking about having a go.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 19, 2010, 03:13:57 pm
If you submit a pic of you wearing the same clothes and doing the same pose, it will certainly impress me.

(http://www.marcophysio.com/images/pilates_14.jpg)

(cue furious dash for Photoshop)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 19, 2010, 09:06:46 pm
The climbing walls round here are full of punters trying to put their leg behind their ear.  Some of the chicks are really hot, and it's getting to the point where I can't climb sport without a bird at the base of the route standing on her head.  Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.

Which climbing walls are these?. Static resistance type stretching* before climbing has been shown to decrease strength performance. I can't ever recall anyone doing yoga stretches at the Foundry before or after except for ones that have obvoiusly part of some corrective physio advice. Is this at the London walls by any chance ? Maybe its some show-off thing going on as in - I can't climb well but I can attract attention doing the splits ? A good climber who did yoga might not feel the same urge.

* However, ballistic stretching was being strongly advocated by Dave Binney at a BMC Youth Climbing event I went to on Saturday.

Yeah its london.  I've read papers on stretching, but not related to climbing.  But I'm guessing that I've blown any chance to say anything else on this subject.  ("Just my fucking opinion, what you gonna do about it" seems to have got me puntered.  :boohoo:)  Oh well.  Welcome to the internet!  ;)

I dunno who Dave Binney is.  If he's on here, I'll be sure to punter him.  [JOKE.]
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Stubbs on July 19, 2010, 09:45:47 pm
You'll soon learn not to throw bullshit opinions round on here, or base any general climbing experiences on what happens in London!
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: shark on July 19, 2010, 11:22:40 pm
Yeah its london.  I've read papers on stretching, but not related to climbing.  But I'm guessing that I've blown any chance to say anything else on this subject.  ("Just my fucking opinion, what you gonna do about it" seems to have got me puntered.  :boohoo:)  Oh well.  Welcome to the internet!  ;)

Good/informed climbers might do yoga but probably don't do it at the wall  a. because they are there to climb b. they know extreme stretching - especally upper body - is not a good warm-up.

For more on climbing specific benefits you might want to check out these articles I stumbled across by Annie Anderson who I climbed with once and isnt a shit climber  :o  http://www.yogaclimbing.com/publications.htm (http://www.yogaclimbing.com/publications.htm) also a good summary on the specific benefits of yoga for climbing here: http://www.spadout.com/w/climbing-training/ (http://www.spadout.com/w/climbing-training/)

There's more to climbing and climbing training than manfully cranking hard on small holds and beasting yourself on the C-board. Apparently. See Johnny Brown for details....   

Anyway thanks for the prompt - I've booked in for my 7.30am class tomorrow. 
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Fultonius on July 20, 2010, 08:29:57 am

Anyway thanks for the prompt - I've booked in for my 7.30am class tomorrow.

Oh dear, time for a steady downward progression of your grades.  ::)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: davidbulley on July 20, 2010, 01:02:44 pm

Jeez, get over yourself.  The climbing walls round here are full of punters trying to put their leg behind their ear.  Some of the chicks are really hot, and it's getting to the point where I can't climb sport without a bird at the base of the route standing on her head.  Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.

That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga.  So they'd be better off doing something else.  Unless it gives them zen powers or some shit which I guess you have to be a true yogi to get, right?

I guess you do yoga.  Why?  Why did you choose that?  Did you honestly honestly think about how it would help your climbing - or did you just drift into it because everyone said so?  Or is it nothing to do with your climbing, and you just do it because you like it?  That's cool, no problem with that.  What I've a problem with is that yoga is good cross training for climbing, because from what I can see, it isn't.

Malcolm Smith does yoga ;) http://climbingmasterclass.com/training/protips.asp?article=2 (http://climbingmasterclass.com/training/protips.asp?article=2)

So do you supplement your bouldering with other forms of strength training?
Definitely. I do deadhangs, campusing, locking holds to the neck and 1-armers on a bar or an edge (although the 1-armers are mainly for a tune-up at the start of a session). I also do a few system style problems such as body tension moves at full stretch or front-on with my feet splayed out, or climbing with a weight-belt. I don't do much isometric (static) work but I would do if I was training for a specific move again like I did for Hubble. I still use weights but for overall body strength rather than climbing strength - I only do compound movements like clean & jerk, deadlift, benchpress, upright row & shoulder press. I'd also use a Bachar ladders if I had one at the moment! I also do an hour of yoga at the end of the day - it really loosens you off and helps you relax and recover mentally as well as physically.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Fultonius on July 20, 2010, 01:36:41 pm
Ah, but maybe he's be climbing 9b if he didn't.  :-\

Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Ged on July 21, 2010, 09:18:38 am

J
So do you supplement your bouldering with other forms of strength training?
Definitely. I do deadhangs, campusing, locking holds to the neck and 1-armers on a bar or an edge (although the 1-armers are mainly for a tune-up at the start of a session). I also do a few system style problems such as body tension moves at full stretch or front-on with my feet splayed out, or climbing with a weight-belt. I don't do much isometric (static) work but I would do if I was training for a specific move again like I did for Hubble. I still use weights but for overall body strength rather than climbing strength - I only do compound movements like clean & jerk, deadlift, benchpress, upright row & shoulder press. I'd also use a Bachar ladders if I had one at the moment! I also do an hour of yoga at the end of the day - it really loosens you off and helps you relax and recover mentally as well as physically.

The crucial thing there though is that he also does deadhangs, campussing, locking, 1 armers, and system problems with a weight belt.  I suspect it's that which has helped him climb 9a, a lot more than the yoga.  I'm sure yoga isn't detrimental to climbing, but I reckon most folks efforts would be better applied elsewhere.  Unless of course like someone else said, it's just cos they like yoga.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Ged on July 21, 2010, 09:19:20 am
Hmmm, haven't got the hang of the quote thing.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 21, 2010, 09:24:36 am
As with so many things (and the way in which they are discussed on forums) its not just one thing or another, its a balance and synergy of many factors.  Some may have greater and more prominent influence than others on performance, whilst others are more subtle.

Or to put it another way...

Biohazard - Shades of Grey (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2417651249276744677)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on July 21, 2010, 09:27:00 am
I think most people agree that yoga should be a supplement, not a substitute.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: shark on July 21, 2010, 09:51:29 am
I think most people agree that yoga should be a supplement, not a substitute.

And the beauty is that because its so different from most types of climbing training it shouldn't affect the quality of your training and may even aid recovery fom sessions (unless its hardcore ashtanga yoga which sounds like doing a pentathalon or circuit training).

For those (genuinely) lacking time who are choosing between activities yoga would/should usually be a low priority.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Snoops on July 21, 2010, 10:07:14 am

 



Core strength: I'd say yoga was a pretty weak option for this.  There are only a few positions that are any good; why spend ages trying to put your knees by your ears when you should be experiencing abdominal pain?  Try this instead: http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/ (http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/) for example.  If you really must give someone else money, go to a pilates class.  And for chrissakes, stop doing situps.

Muscle imbalances?  I can't see yoga helping for this either.  We spend forever using the back, core, forearms, biceps... so any muscle imbalances e.g. in the triceps - are going to need work at some point yes.  I can't see how yoga is going to compensate for that though; if there is a real imbalance that really needs sorting I probably need to do something a lot more muscle intense, like the weight room, or getting a theraband or something.

Whats the problem with situps?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 21, 2010, 05:23:58 pm
Quote
The crucial thing there though is that he also does deadhangs, campussing, locking, 1 armers, and system problems with a weight belt.  I suspect it's that which has helped him climb 9a, a lot more than the yoga.  I'm sure yoga isn't detrimental to climbing, but I reckon most folks efforts would be better applied elsewhere.

My experience has been that I can climb much more if I do Yoga. If I don't, my posture goes to cock, my back seizes up, and I get referred pain/ tension in elbows, shoulders and even legs. It sounds to me like Malcolm has found the same. If he'd just done the climbing training, he'd probably be a hunchback crippled with injury.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Iesu on July 21, 2010, 06:15:12 pm
My theory: they start crap, see loads of fancy pants people doing yoga, and spend time they need to be climbing and training doing yoga instead of climbing and training.

I got this far through the thread and have decided to sack it off as it's a load of bollocks - who needs to be climbing (much lesstraining)...christ, it's meant to be fun isn't it?

or is it just the latest excuse to harass people online?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 22, 2010, 11:06:52 am
Whats the problem with situps?

Firstly, they might be bad for your back.  Not exactly proven, goes back and forth, lots of people saying they're bad, others saying no they're not, other studies saying yes they are unless your knees are bent, still more saying that's bollocks, and there's no difference in spinal compression between the two methods, yada yada yada.  There are several clear studies that show that they're no good for your back though (i.e. doesn't help).

On the other hand, isometric core exercises - like the planche training routine - are good for your back, and also, most importantly, Give You Rock Hard Abs In Under Two Weeks.

So, given that they might be bad, and there are better exercises, I think we should all stop doing them.  I'm being a tad careful with my opinion now however.   As I want to be friends.  :hug:

To the other poster about having fun: why you reading the diet, training and injuries thread if you just wanna have fun?  Surely you realise this board is for those with food disorders, training obsessions or broken bodies from such activities?  You want to read the shooting the shit section.


Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 22, 2010, 11:12:12 am
Got any of those wonderful link things that take people to said articles you are referring to so others can read and judge for themselves the quality of the research and advice?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 22, 2010, 11:23:12 am
Got any of those wonderful link things that take people to said articles you are referring to so others can read and judge for themselves the quality of the research and advice?

There are loads slackers.  (Ok if I call you slackers?)

A few:
http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/low-back-pain-exercises.html (http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/low-back-pain-exercises.html)

This comments on the suitability of situps (of various kinds), to solve low back pain - and points out the fact that there's no difference between the two.  It's quite a good article I think.

This one:

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/situps.htm (http://www.brianmac.co.uk/situps.htm)

...whilst not anything like a "scientific" analysis pretty much summarises the common view about doing situps - i.e. do them carefully or you'll hurt your back.

Some more:
http://www.simplestrengthening.com/2009/09/09/avoid-back-pain-by-skipping-sit-ups-and-crunches/ (http://www.simplestrengthening.com/2009/09/09/avoid-back-pain-by-skipping-sit-ups-and-crunches/)
http://hubpages.com/hub/sit-ups-and-back-pain (http://hubpages.com/hub/sit-ups-and-back-pain) (this one may well be bollocks, well they may all be actually)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2007/07/20/black_london_back_pain_feature.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2007/07/20/black_london_back_pain_feature.shtml)
http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/01/21/33234-study-investigates-sit-ups-vs-core-strengthening-during-apft/ (http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/01/21/33234-study-investigates-sit-ups-vs-core-strengthening-during-apft/) (references a study)

The dragon door stuff (how to do the planche and the front lever):

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/ (http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/)

Now, these are pretty selective, and before anyone accuses me of saying that I'm being selective, I googled for various things like "sit ups back pain" and the inverse, but the search terms may have been pretty shit at finding the counter arguments...

Also, I haven't read all the articles all the way through as I'm supposed to be working.  ;)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Snoops on July 22, 2010, 11:27:34 am
Lund may be right.
This article summarises well:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/core-myths/ (http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/core-myths/)

Not sure about your anti-yoga stance, don't seem any harm in it myself, but cheers for the abs heads up
After a bit of research I going to stop doing my situps. :goodidea:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Norton Sharley on July 22, 2010, 11:43:39 am
Honestly Lund you are getting hung up on names here.  Yoga has been around for millenia and covers such a wide range of movements that virtually any other training regime (Planche, Pilates ... ) could arguably be considered a derivative.  Quickly looking at a YouTube vid of Planche press ups - are these not a derivative of a yoga Cobra jump through to handstand (whatever it's properly called) movement?  Isometric exercises are the basis of Yoga - a dynamic movement between static (isometric) poses.

I normally need at least a full day's rest after a good yoga session, the same as for climbing.  If you're not knackered at the end of it you aint doing it right or going to a hard enough class.

And sit ups are only bad for your back if you haven't got the core strength, or awareness, to do them properly. 

Get over the name and go and do some decent Yoga, or at least don't slag us off for doing it.  It's good for posture, strength, body awareness, relaxation and breathing.  All of which are required to be a well rounded climber.  And if you're smart like the Shark you can pick a class full of young students :kiss2:

Having said all of that I could name one well known climber whose stretching regime involves touching his knees with a bent back and drinking tea and it doesn't stop him shaking and wobbling his way up far harder routes than most of us can do.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 22, 2010, 11:50:50 am


There are loads slackers.  (Ok if I call you slackers?)

Not at all.

Now, these are pretty selective, and before anyone accuses me of saying that I'm being selective, I googled for various things like "sit ups back pain" and the inverse, but the search terms may have been pretty shit at finding the counter arguments...

Also, I haven't read all the articles all the way through as I'm supposed to be working.  ;)

Cheers for the links.  The beauty of the net is that the information is out there, I could have spent some of my (working) day going around and googling myself, but if you've already read the articles and are referring to the findings in a post then it makes sense (to my academically trained mind) to cite them at the same time (takes you a fraction longer to post, but if 20 people read your post and want to find out what you're going on about then you'll have saved 20 people a load of time looking for things that they might not be able to find as their searching may take them to different articles).  I'm  :guilty: of telling people to go and search themselves, but if you're going to cite something you should provide the supporting evidence up front (in my opinion anyway).

You may want to try http://scholar.google.co.uk (http://scholar.google.co.uk) for future searches on the SCIENCE of things (it searches peer-reviewed scientific journals/periodicals and patents, and also sociology stuff etc, etc,).  Searching there for sit-ups back pain (http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=sit-ups+back+pain) gives some hits.

Note also that if you're using google and put double quotes around a search term then you are requesting that Google returns pages that contain exactly the phrase that is between the quotes as opposed to pages that contain the individual terms.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: a dense loner on July 22, 2010, 10:29:43 pm
there were 3 guys doing yoga tonight at the wall, not london, my core got a thorough workout
sit-ups ave been known to be bad for your lower back for at least 15 yrs
etc
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Lund on July 23, 2010, 09:14:05 am
My theory: they start crap, see loads of fancy pants people doing yoga, and spend time they need to be climbing and training doing yoga instead of climbing and training.

I got this far through the thread and have decided to sack it off as it's a load of bollocks - who needs to be climbing (much lesstraining)...christ, it's meant to be fun isn't it?

or is it just the latest excuse to harass people online?

Seeing as you saw fit to punter me over this bullshit, let me retort properly.

You've taken the comment out of the context in which it was delivered - the training (for climbing) - section, and turned it into some wank "who needs to climbing much less training" toss.  I guess you're thinking ooh I only need air and water and food and God and shit.  Yes very clever.

You need to climb if you're going to get better at climbing.  Climbing is accepted by anyone with one fucking braincell as being the best training for climbing if you're not very good at it.  As you improve granted, you can supplement the climbing with other shit - and the point was that I think yoga is a (not very good, but that's what the argument is about) supplement yet the punters I see 4 days in every 7 do it instead of climbing.  That is, they have a 3 hour window for a session, and they spend half of it doing yoga, and most of the other half talking.

So in the context of training, this thread, for climbing, they're doing a toss job, and they need to stop if they want to get better.  Presumably, people reading this fucking board want to get better.

There are some people on here (at least me and dense and char) that actually want to train because we enjoy it.  We're probably a bit obsessed, although the amount of obsession with it varies from time to time.  The fact that people post their daily training routines and progress on here, on their blogs, write in their diary, yada yada suggests that, on some level, it enriches their lives and existences, that they need it to be happy, and fuck me, we all need to be happy right?  So I would say that quite a lot of us NEED to go climbing, some of us NEED to train, and those are the people THIS FUCKING TRAINING BOARD IS AIMED AT.

So, if you're pissed because you do yoga, fine.  Join the fucking club.  But punter me because you don't need to train or climb, on the training board thread, and pretend that everyone is like you?  Cock.

I was going to leave this, and play the maturity card.  But then I saw Dense's post on the other thread about pull-ups on a mono whilst weighing 12 stone and I was inspired.

Now I'm going to fuck off, and decide whether I want to cancel my fucking account on this piece of shit.  I've had it with this bollocks.  Frankly, people like you turn this place, which I thought was for people who actually gave a shit about climbing hard rather than just being on t'interweb, in ukclimbing, and I can't stand that fucking place.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 23, 2010, 09:24:05 am
You've taken the comment out of the context in which it was delivered - the training (for climbing) - section, and turned it into some wank "who needs to climbing much less training" toss.  I guess you're thinking ooh I only need air and water and food and God and shit.  Yes very clever.

There we go, corrected that for ya  ;)

Now I'm going to fuck off, and decide whether I want to cancel my fucking account on this piece of shit.  I've had it with this bollocks.  Frankly, people like you turn this place, which I thought was for people who actually gave a shit about climbing hard rather than just being on t'interweb, in ukclimbing, and I can't stand that fucking place.

One of my favourite quotes on t'net from our very own admin...

welcome to the internet where people tend to disagree with each other.

And a rather poignant cartoon to lighten the mood...

(http://[url=http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png[/url])

Thick skin, wheat/chaff, etc. etc.

(Don't take the karma system too seriously either).
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: GCW on July 23, 2010, 09:46:00 am
Lund- you speak a lot of sense, but don't let one incident turn you off.  Besides, it'd be very dull if everyone agreed :lol:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on July 23, 2010, 10:07:14 am
And a rather poignant cartoon to lighten the mood...

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)


 :oops: just correcting myself.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: lagerstarfish on July 23, 2010, 12:13:34 pm
the punters I see 4 days in every 7 do it instead of climbing.  That is, they have a 3 hour window for a session, and they spend half of it doing yoga, and most of the other half talking

based on my observations, I think this is inaccurate.

They probably spend 20 to 30% of their time looking in mirrors and a similar amount of time in the sauna/steam room. leaving 40 to 60% of their time to be split between talking and yoga-ing.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Stubbs on July 23, 2010, 12:29:43 pm
  That is, they have a 3 hour window for a session, and they spend half of it doing yoga, and most of the other half talking.


I'm glad the people at The Castle do that, if they didn't they might be bouldering, and I'd have to wait longer for a go!
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: saltbeef on July 23, 2010, 03:43:04 pm
poor lund
he's been given a hard time for being flippant.
i agree with him. and lee.
most of the goons i see doing yoga at walls in manc then fucking sketch their way up some jugs. shock loading their joints all the way up.
that is not to say everyone who does yoga and climbs is shit.
but i fail to see these guys rinsing out 8c at the crag. certainly i've not witnesses them.

now to the crux.
i'm sure there are better ways than yoga for core strength. i can't see olympic gymnasts rumbling up to the gym and doing 8 hours of yoga. no they're on the rings and shit. granted handstands and stuff do make an appearance in yoga.
i like yoga, but i don't think its the best use of time to climb harder.
certainly since i've been at work i stopped doing yoga and did more fingerboarding and ab exercises and my grade has gone up. (yes a case study of 1!)
and yes i do sit ups and i've never had a back problem( i'm obviously gonna pop a disc out now). in fact i view my core as being my strong point and am a big fan of front levers

anyway back to picking on lund
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 23, 2010, 05:49:48 pm
Quote
Now I'm going to fuck off, and decide whether I want to cancel my fucking account on this piece of shit.  I've had it with this bollocks.  Frankly, people like you turn this place, which I thought was for people who actually gave a shit about climbing hard rather than just being on t'interweb, in ukclimbing, and I can't stand that fucking place.

Genius - one of the funniest things I've read here in a long time.

The best thing is Lund seems genuinely annoyed by punters doing Yoga? WHY? As I said earlier, maybe they want to. There are a lot of training obsessed idiots in climbing who don't seem to have the perspective that most people boulder for fun, not power. Why do you care what they want to do. Get a fucking grip.

If you REALLy want to get better at climbing Lund, why not leave Lundon and live somewhere decent for climbing? Or do you enjoy training more than climbing? Wanting is often better than getting after all.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Paul B on July 23, 2010, 05:59:08 pm
But then I saw Dense's post on the other thread about pull-ups on a mono whilst weighing 12 stone and I was inspired.

I think we've found the route of the problem, being inspired by Dense isn't a healthy thing.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: shark on July 23, 2010, 06:01:01 pm

If you REALLy want to get better at climbing Lund, why not leave Lundon and live somewhere decent for climbing?

Lundy ?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Norton Sharley on July 23, 2010, 08:12:09 pm
Slackers:  Please add to the UKB Wiki the definition of a "Lundy" (apart from being the island full of lovely granite climbing) as being someone who really wants to climb hard, is a training beast, but lives in London?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: a dense loner on July 23, 2010, 08:35:48 pm
i think you'd be a bit upset johnny if u walked round the corner to westside n found a few guys gettin down with the dog
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 23, 2010, 10:04:28 pm
Not at all, I blundered into a certain individual doing Tai Chi at the Secret Garden once and it made my day. Especially when he proceeded to burn me off using imaginary holds. Its not the Castle after all.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: lagerstarfish on July 23, 2010, 10:29:16 pm
people boulder for fun

And here we see further corroboration of Long's corollary of Godwin's Law

Quote from: Lagerpedia - Godwin's Law
Long's corollary: As an online discussion about climbing grades or training grows longer, the probability of involving "climbing for fun" approaches 1.
It should be noted that this probability increases at a faster rate (by a factor of between 10 and 104) if Long himself is involved in the discussion

:SOCIALSCIENCE:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: lagerstarfish on July 23, 2010, 10:36:41 pm
Slackers:  Please add to the UKB Wiki the definition of a "Lundy" (apart from being the island full of lovely granite climbing) as being someone who really wants to climb hard, is a training beast, but lives in London?

An excellent idea.

Lund should be proud of his legacy.

Are there degrees of lundiness - "I feel a bit less lundy since moving to Watford" - or is it going to be a noun only?
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: a dense loner on July 24, 2010, 07:20:23 am
Not at all, I blundered into a certain individual doing Tai Chi at the Secret Garden once and it made my day. Especially when he proceeded to burn me off using imaginary holds. Its not the Castle after all.
excellent, u saw zaf at his local's local bouldering hotspot which just so happens to be the only place in the peak where snake hips will get u up everything, apart from which he's also very talented at that kind of thing. i saw the same guy at burbage north shaking like a shitting dog up an overhang with no footlocks or heelhooks which i then cruised in trainers, it wasn't the secret garden after all. no medals required just another slant on the discussion. this threads great ;D
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Norton Sharley on July 24, 2010, 08:50:23 am
Are we still talking about yoga or just technique?  ;)

Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Jim on July 24, 2010, 11:27:59 am
this best thing about this thread is that no-one is really sure what they are arguing about
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: saltbeef on July 24, 2010, 11:48:18 am
i am and so is my wife
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Jim on July 24, 2010, 12:40:40 pm
I thought you were in a civil partnership with the local milk-man.
Question
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: a dense loner on July 24, 2010, 02:24:23 pm
i haven't got a clue what i'm talking about or where this discussions going, but in for a penny...
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Jim on July 24, 2010, 03:39:06 pm
this is what I think is going on:
question as to wether or not yoga is good for core strength, universal NO as shown by poll, Lund trying to say that yoga isn't really going to make you a better climber, Johnny thinks people go climbing for a bit of fun/healthy exercise. Dense has something good to say for once and saltbeef has run out of lube for his rubber fist.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: saltbeef on July 24, 2010, 03:42:06 pm
not to worry. i've got some harissa paste!
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Moo on July 24, 2010, 05:01:09 pm
thats how i read it
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Jim on July 24, 2010, 08:31:42 pm
not to worry. i've got some harissa paste!
no wonder your eyes are glowing red keymaster!
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Houdini on July 25, 2010, 09:56:17 am
Of mat exercises, Pilates for core.



People still do sit-ups?

http://pilates.about.com/od/pilatesmat/ss/CrissCross.htm (http://pilates.about.com/od/pilatesmat/ss/CrissCross.htm)


Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Nibile on July 25, 2010, 04:56:29 pm
I don't think yoga is particularly good or bad for climbing. for core strength, I prefer to boulder on problems on which if I cut loose I fall, or to train front levers.
re. punters in fancy dresses doing yoga at the gym, I have witnessed many also.
it's common, and for sure it can be a sort of showing off, or, it can be perceived as showing off from climbers "yo look at me I'm super flexible and you?".
personally I think it's just their routine for warming up, but us climbers are strage.
I don't think yoga makes you climb like shit. I think that many people are very experienced in yoga and do it regularly, train physically and mentally for it, but they don't dedicate such effort to climbing, because they don't care about it so much.
so they come to the gym, they warm up as they like, and then they climb poorly.
but it's just as if I'd go to yoga classes, warm up jumping on a beam and cranking 30 pull ups (ok make it 10), then do yoga like an agonizing bull.
they would think that climbing is bad for yoga. which is probably true. so what's the point now?
when I started typing I had an idea in mind but now it seems gone.
oh well...
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: account_inactive on July 25, 2010, 09:51:16 pm
WOW Nible is a more eloquent version of Dense!

I'm sure a bit of yoga helps if you have Alsatian hips, but it's no substitute for pull ups  :whistle:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Dolly on July 25, 2010, 10:34:25 pm
I love our forum for many reasons -  one of them is it's ability for a thread to migrate from an innocent enquiry to a hotbed of discussion.
At the risk of being accused of being a pedant, the OP was just about something to help my back. It was nothing to do with doing yoga and its influence/relationship with climbing.
That's not to say I'm not enjoying the passing of opinion at all.
Thanks to Chris and JB for your posts on the initial topic - the position you explained has definitely helped.

Back to the vitriol ... 
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Norton Sharley on August 03, 2010, 05:13:35 pm
... the OP was just about something to help my back. It was nothing to do with doing yoga .....
Back to the vitriol ...

Then why didn't you call the thread something like "something to help my back" instead of referring to yoga you pedant?

Have you tried less  :shag: and more  :alky:?  If you weren't such a tight  :spank: we could  :beer2: and I'd provide you with some simple back exercises.  :hug:
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: hongkongstuey on August 17, 2010, 12:10:51 am
At the risk of being accused of being a pedant, the OP was just about something to help my back. It was nothing to do with doing yoga and its influence/relationship with climbing.

it'll definitely help sort out bad backs - i started practicing about 6-7 years ago as i was suffering from sciatica. Thats long gone now and my backs so bendy and healthy i'm pretty comfortable in positions such as this:
(http://www.yogajournal.com/media/originals/MC_206_Kapotasana_248.jpg)

will it help core as much as a specific work out - not unless the instructor sequences the whole class with a core theme ('Forrest' Yoga teachers are pretty good at killing students in this respect)

will it help climbing - a bit if you're weak in terms of flexibility, balance, breathing and mind control

hazards - until a few years ago i was a pretty obsessive climber who trained like buggery and did a couple of yoga classes a weak. now i'm a pretty obsessive yogi (usually about 5 to 6, 1.5 to 2 hour practices per week) who only hits the crags at weekends and hasn't visited a climbing wall in years. Having said which, I'm still not that far off the levels i was climbing before so it can't be all bad.

Summary - try it, if you like it then keep going. if you don't, look for something else to help you heal


Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: SA Chris on August 17, 2010, 09:06:44 am

'Forrest' Yoga teachers are pretty good at killing students in this respect


(http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/forrest-gump-jenny-curran.jpg)

Now hold that position Jenny.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: jstrongman on August 17, 2010, 02:12:07 pm
I personally think that it does not make you stronger, in fact I think in the short term it slows down strength gains, as more yoga = less time climbing specific training, and like any excersie requires recovery time. However, I do think it has led me to get stronger in the long run as (touch wood!!) since doing a 1 hour of ashtanga 3x a week (on and off for 2 years). I am getting lots less injures and think my strength is distributed over a much larger movement range.
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Jim on August 17, 2010, 04:18:48 pm
I think going swimming instead of yoga would be more beneficial all round
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Stubbs on August 17, 2010, 05:05:53 pm
For helping your back, making you better at climbing, or making you more flexible?!
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: slackline on August 17, 2010, 05:12:03 pm
For helping your back, making you better at climbing, or making you more flexible?!

For getting better at swimming obviously  :P
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Nemo on September 14, 2010, 06:41:31 pm
Thought this video was amusing in the context of this thread...

http://www.climbing.com/photo-video/av/chris_sharma_practices_yoga_at_wanderlust/ (http://www.climbing.com/photo-video/av/chris_sharma_practices_yoga_at_wanderlust/)
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: Moo on September 19, 2010, 07:11:19 pm
 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: amazing i would love to see ferret and dense rock up at that event
Title: Re: Yoga for core
Post by: account_inactive on September 20, 2010, 12:04:36 am
I like the bit where Shiva is trying to bum Sharma :lol:.  Ferret and Dense would explode if they were there
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