UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: User deactivated. on February 09, 2024, 11:53:21 am
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I'm sure there will be a few good insights in Ondra's new climbing course, but fooking $200 for it! I would have purchased a book for up to around £30, but this is taking the piss.
https://altitudeclimbing.com/lead-climbing-signup/?adb_ad_id=690195178764&adb_ad_source=google&adb_click_id=CjwKCAiAt5euBhB9EiwAdkXWO0gv20LdLqHu5957eOYAB6mbtKFLDsQzgxywlZPyTpPbQlYT7j4oNBoCUHYQAvD_BwE&adb_campaign_id=21005436194&adb_adgroup_id=158271136749&adb_target_id=kwd-355110256009&adb_placement=&adb_target=&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAt5euBhB9EiwAdkXWO0gv20LdLqHu5957eOYAB6mbtKFLDsQzgxywlZPyTpPbQlYT7j4oNBoCUHYQAvD_BwE
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50 video tutorials and lifetime access, hmmm seems a bit more than £30 worth to me.
Also, what would you rather pay for: 1000 instances of getting virtual coaching from the best and one of the most eloquent climbers alive, or one instance of a few planks being shoved across a grotty stream in the Peaks??
P.S. Just in case:
'ach romuluSngan vIqelchoHDI',
'ej bIr rIQmoH' 'ej SuvwI', QumpIn je rur https://shorturl.at/cesz8;
'ach suvwI' Qu' vIpIH.
'ach tangq 63364895 a' targhmey veqlargh.
yo' qIjDaq ba'choH'a' 'ej pIvlIj yItlhob. romuluSngan veSDujmey
'ach malja' wIHoHtaHvIS%, SoHvaD QomchoHbej Humanpu' 'e' yIchaw'.
ghotpu'bogh ponglu'chugh nuvpu'
:beer2:
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https://latticetraining.com/product/a-climbers-guide-to-training-course/
Virtually the same price for the same thing from your friends at lattice.
All of this stuff is a massive grift but hey ho it keeps the maclaren fuelled up.
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it keeps the maclaren fuelled up.
Ondra has himself a Benz!
https://www.adamondra.com/introducing-quot-dolphin-quot-my-new-mercedes-benz-car-hotel-and-second-home-at-once/
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it keeps the maclaren fuelled up.
Ondra has himself a Benz!
https://www.adamondra.com/introducing-quot-dolphin-quot-my-new-mercedes-benz-car-hotel-and-second-home-at-once/
Not really the same league is it. He is also the greatest performance climber of all time, if anyone should be making some coin from this buy low, sell high, snake oil salesmanship it should be him
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I did think it looked a bit low spec. Surely mercedes could do better than that!
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50 video tutorials and lifetime access, hmmm seems a bit more than £30 worth to me.
But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.
I'm not surprised that Lattice do similar on the basis that they sell branded generic yoga mats and loading pins with a huge mark up.
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50 video tutorials and lifetime access, hmmm seems a bit more than £30 worth to me.
But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.
I'm not surprised that Lattice do similar on the basis that they sell branded generic yoga mats and loading pins with a huge mark up.
Why are you so bothered? They don't have a gun to your head to buy a plan. They hit a niche in the market at the time so fair play to them.
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Why are you so bothered? They don't have a gun to your head to buy a plan. They hit a niche in the market at the time so fair play to them.
I'm not. This thread is in the 'news' section of the forum and this course was newsworthy IMO. We're simply discussing it.
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https://latticetraining.com/product/a-climbers-guide-to-training-course/
Virtually the same price for the same thing from your friends at lattice.
All of this stuff is a massive grift but hey ho it keeps the maclaren fuelled up.
I'd be interested if you had the same opinion after actually watching the lattice course. I've worked at lattice for 8 or 9 years (not as a coach mind) and I still learnt a decent amount when I was test running it. If you want to learn about training for climbing I think it's one of the best resources currently available.
If you're genuinely interested, willing to watch the full course and happy to send feedback then drop me a DM and I'll give you access.
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That is a very kind offer, I will happily take you up on it and try to be open minded.
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But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.
15 years ago stuff of any real quality wasn't in existence for climbing. Even 10 years ago, what was out there was written as a hobby and not to make money as a business with emplyees etc. - Horst was writting books whilst being a weatherman or whatever. I wrote my little training pdf 11 years ago and chatted to Tom about whether to write a book - we decided against it as the time investment would not have been worth it.
The free or cheap stuff is still out there plenty for those who want it, the neatly curated and well presented packages are there for those who want to pay a couple of hundred quid to be handed 10 hours worth of stuff rather than have to work through lots more hours worth of searching, reading, working out what to listen to, etc... Pay your money (or not) and make your choice. There are lots of things in the world where you can DIY it for free/cheap or pay money to existing experts to make your life easier :shrug: Climbing largely isn't how it used to be, with people just putting info out in pdfs and dodgy translations of Macia training plans, but that's partly because people want videos and smartphone apps these days... I miss the old ways a bit, but if I were young now I'd probably be asking for these as presents to shortcut reading PlanetFear articles by Gresh and searching rowing forums trying to understand how other sports get fit.
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That is a very kind offer, I will happily take you up on it and try to be open minded.
Drop me a PM on here with your email address and I'll get you setup. Im on insta as remuscrimp so drop me a message there instead if it's easier.
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But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.
15 years ago stuff of any real quality wasn't in existence for climbing. Even 10 years ago, what was out there was written as a hobby and not to make money as a business with emplyees etc. - Horst was writting books whilst being a weatherman or whatever. I wrote my little training pdf 11 years ago and chatted to Tom about whether to write a book - we decided against it as the time investment would not have been worth it.
The free or cheap stuff is still out there plenty for those who want it, the neatly curated and well presented packages are there for those who want to pay a couple of hundred quid to be handed 10 hours worth of stuff rather than have to work through lots more hours worth of searching, reading, working out what to listen to, etc... Pay your money (or not) and make your choice. There are lots of things in the world where you can DIY it for free/cheap or pay money to existing experts to make your life easier :shrug: Climbing largely isn't how it used to be, with people just putting info out in pdfs and dodgy translations of Macia training plans, but that's partly because people want videos and smartphone apps these days... I miss the old ways a bit, but if I were young now I'd probably be asking for these as presents to shortcut reading PlanetFear articles by Gresh and searching rowing forums trying to understand how other sports get fit.
How do we know if any of the stuff we have today is any better than that of yesteryear, is it not probable that all or the vast majority the improvements we see now are as a result of better and more climbing walls and the consequent earlier and easier access to climbing?
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How do we know if any of the stuff we have today is any better than that of yesteryear
Maybe I expressed myself poorly. 15 years ago "the stuff" didn't really exist in a one-stop-shop with descriptions of how to apply it to climbing - it was piecing together rumours, hearsay, articles here and there, what other sports did... 15 years ago it wasn't in a nicely put together thing (book or online multi-media service), you had to make the book yourself. I mean quality of the materials in that sense, rather than the end product being "quality" training advice. So I'm sure Jacob and Patxi knew how to train well 15 years ago, but 15 years ago it was a lot harder for the enthusiastic punter like me to access that info - it's "better" in that sense.
How do we know if any of the stuff we have today is any better than that of yesteryear, is it not probable that all or the vast majority the improvements we see now are as a result of [...] earlier and easier access to climbing?
I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.
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But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.
15 years ago stuff of any real quality wasn't in existence for climbing. Even 10 years ago, what was out there was written as a hobby and not to make money as a business with emplyees etc. - Horst was writting books whilst being a weatherman or whatever. I wrote my little training pdf 11 years ago and chatted to Tom about whether to write a book - we decided against it as the time investment would not have been worth it.
The free or cheap stuff is still out there plenty for those who want it, the neatly curated and well presented packages are there for those who want to pay a couple of hundred quid to be handed 10 hours worth of stuff rather than have to work through lots more hours worth of searching, reading, working out what to listen to, etc... Pay your money (or not) and make your choice. There are lots of things in the world where you can DIY it for free/cheap or pay money to existing experts to make your life easier :shrug: Climbing largely isn't how it used to be, with people just putting info out in pdfs and dodgy translations of Macia training plans, but that's partly because people want videos and smartphone apps these days... I miss the old ways a bit, but if I were young now I'd probably be asking for these as presents to shortcut reading PlanetFear articles by Gresh and searching rowing forums trying to understand how other sports get fit.
I agree with what you're saying really, i'm basically being the 'old man shakes fist at cloud' meme. The world is different now, although Ned Feehally managed to put out a nice book not too long ago, and Dave Mac's is still relevant too. (I'm aware that Ned and Dave are not Ondra + support team)
Sometimes, I deliberate on whether the time investment is worth it for a 2 hour podcast with a climber/coach for the scarce, useful bits of information I might hear. This feels like a more extreme version of that problem. I'm slightly curious whether Ondra has some little bits of useful information that I've not heard before, but not curious enough to fork out $200, especially after seeing the taster video on heelhooking, which seems incredibly basic - I saw more nuance in a YouTube video with Drew Ruana (who's not shit at heelhooks himself).
I expect it's probably a nice product for people who are newer to climbing and not the types who regularly frequent forums to discuss argue about the intricacies of training and marginal gains.
As much as it's fun to poke at Lattice, I appreciate that they do actual 1:1 personalised coaching. That's something that I thought was worth paying for and did for a period in 2022. I found it to be good and don't regret doing it, although in hindsight there were a lot of things programmed that I now believe were ineffective for my goals and I've made better progress sorting my own training.
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I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.
Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over. That being said I am sure I waste money on things which are a lot more pointless.
Anyway I will be true to my word and watch the lattice course and you never know maybe I will be a convert.
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That being said I am sure I waste money on things which are a lot more pointless.
but at least booze can be delicious.
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I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.
Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over. That being said I am sure I waste money on things which are a lot more pointless.
Anyway I will be true to my word and watch the lattice course and you never know maybe I will be a convert.
If you are not a child prodigy but instead a 30 something year old with work, family, life commitments etc having someone write a plan for you takes all the guesswork and time management out of the equation and means you can focus on consistent structured training that in my opinion, no doubt benefits people. Whether it’s lattice or any other of the hundreds of coaches out there, I don’t think anyone goes into it expecting a magic bullet but just a hand with structuring their training. Especially around certain projects. Also the accountability aspect helps a lot of people too when they have to report into a coach…
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Accountability is a big part of it for me
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Sometimes, I deliberate on whether the time investment is worth it for a 2 hour podcast with a climber/coach for the scarce, useful bits of information I might hear. This feels like a more extreme version of that problem. I'm slightly curious whether Ondra has some little bits of useful information that I've not heard before, but not curious enough to fork out $200
I expect it's probably a nice product for people who are newer to climbing and not the types who regularly frequent forums to discuss argue about the intricacies of training and marginal gains.
Yup, agree with all of that!
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I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.
Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over
Ah, here's where I think our views differ. I think the key driver in the change in top-end performance (e.g., the number of people climbing 9b or 8C+ or more) between 15 years ago and now is likely to be the larger pool of talent and younger starting age. However, I think it is much easier for an averagely-talented and quite motived climber to achieve 8c now that it was 15 years ago, and a key driver for that is kneepads much more accessible knowledge on how to improve at climbing and train for climbing (and widespread testimonies of the improvements that that can bring)
Also, the more I think about it the more strange that argument is. While I have had little to no influence in the expansion of solar PV deployment, if you want me and my company to model manufacturing costs for a prospective US PV factory we will still charge you for it. A doctor may not have personally had any influence on improving treatments for disease X, but I still expect them to get paid for advising me on how to treat disease X (if only so I don't have to go to med school for 5 years).
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I think one of the big differences between the lattice style program of today vs 15 years ago is that it's supported by a very large pool of relevant data, rather than the n=1 "this is what worked for me" type training philosophies of the past.
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Also, the more I think about it the more strange that argument is. While I have had little to no influence in the expansion of solar PV deployment, if you want me and my company to model manufacturing costs for a prospective US PV factory we will still charge you for it. A doctor may not have personally had any influence on improving treatments for disease X, but I still expect them to get paid for advising me on how to treat disease X (if only so I don't have to go to med school for 5 years).
I'm also baffled by people apparently viewing it as unseemly for people to get paid for providing climbing training advice.
It's a luxury service product. Perhaps it would be better if more people had a vocation being care workers or whatever rather than supplying luxuries. But as luxury products go, it seems to me pretty much the hardest one for me to understand any objection to it.
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I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.
Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over. That being said I am sure I waste money on things which are a lot more pointless.
Anyway I will be true to my word and watch the lattice course and you never know maybe I will be a convert.
If you are not a child prodigy but instead a 30 something year old with work, family, life commitments etc having someone write a plan for you takes all the guesswork and time management out of the equation and means you can focus on consistent structured training that in my opinion, no doubt benefits people. Whether it’s lattice or any other of the hundreds of coaches out there, I don’t think anyone goes into it expecting a magic bullet but just a hand with structuring their training. Especially around certain projects. Also the accountability aspect helps a lot of people too when they have to report into a coach…
I suppose the issue for Tim there being that he is a 40(?) something with two kids and a full time job etc. yet still manages to knock off 8Bs on his holidays.
This all feels very akin for me to people paying for financial advice, in the sense that at heart managing your money for most people is really very simple and can be boiled down to a few extremely basic principles. And yet, I suspect the number of people who make it through life without ever worrying about money is vanishingly small. So whilst it really is very easy to learn the principles yourself and apply these to all the scenarios you find yourself in, most people benefit from having an "expert" guide them, especially as those scenarios get more complex and intricate, or when ego overtakes income / wealth (ability / strength in climbing).
The issue, which is what clearly happens in finance, is if the industry then ends up overcomplicating things for people, which generally leads to poorer outcomes if regulation doesn't intervene. And there will always be people who are able to do it themselves, but I think it's fairly uncharitable for those lucky few to poor scorn on both those who need help and those trying to provide it. It's the climbing equivalent of Pete making success in day trading look easy and suggesting everyone could do the same (much as I respect both Tim and Pete!).
Regarding the idea that the general improvement in the population level climbing ability is down to the improvement in facilities; I think that's really simplistic and ignores the fact that the two things (improved facilities and improved training knowledge) have occurred at precisely the same time, so unravelling one from the other is impossible. I think they're so heavily linked you couldn't really have had one without the other and vice versa.
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I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.
Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over.
This is an absolute mug off to the coaches at lattice, especially Ollie Torr who is very very knowledgeable about training for climbing.
Yes there is a bigger pool from which we can draw talent from now and Lattice aren’t solely responsible for top-end improvements, but I’d say they can take credit for an amount - especially of our current crop of top Brits:
Bosi multiple 9A wad, multiple 8B+ flashes
Aiden - 9A, close on Burden and his midnight project sounds potentially as hard or harder.
Josh ibbotson - 9b wad and has basically ticked all the hard routes in Yorkshire!?
Toby Roberts - Ollie has personally trained Toby for a number of years now and to my mind there is no doubt that without Ollie Toby wouldn’t be our most successful competition athlete (bar Shauna) and certainly wouldn’t be in the Olympics. (I think Ollie coached him
for free for much/all of this - could be wrong on that)
The lattice coaches all do a lot of CPD both in house and with people from other sports and universities giving lectures on a wide variety of topics…
I don’t think you could say they aren’t very knowledgeable if you actually knew any of them tbh…
I might be biased because both my partner and some of my closest friends are coaches/lattice droids but that also allows me to see how much work they put in, how knowledgeable they are and how many people they help achieve their goals and more in lots of cases.
Not to mention all the free stuff they put out.
Rant over… :boxing:
To counter what I’ve just said - good on you though if you do remain open-minded whilst you take this course…
and I also hope you don’t claim any sort of expertise or take any money in your professional life whatever that may be :tease:
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This is a conversation that would just not be happening in the majority of sports. Coaches and sports science are just such an obvious part of the process for them. Interesting to see the cultural response to climbing becoming more like that
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Yes there is a bigger pool from which we can draw talent from now and Lattice aren’t solely responsible for top-end improvements, but I’d say they can take credit for an amount - especially of our current crop of top Brits:
Bosi multiple 9A wad, multiple 8B+ flashes
Aiden - 9A, close on Burden and his midnight project sounds potentially as hard or harder.
Josh ibbotson - 9b wad and has basically ticked all the hard routes in Yorkshire!?
Toby Roberts - Ollie has personally trained Toby for a number of years now and to my mind there is no doubt that without Ollie Toby wouldn’t be our most successful competition athlete (bar Shauna) and certainly wouldn’t be in the Olympics. (I think Ollie coached him
for free for much/all of this - could be wrong on that)
It’s obviously a great shame that all these people didn’t have twins so we could have seen how they might have got on without Lattice’s benevolent guiding hand. Aidan was certainly doing ok for himself with some guidance from Varian prior to jumping on the massive Lattice ship!
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I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.
Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over.
This is an absolute mug off to the coaches at lattice, especially Ollie Torr who is very very knowledgeable about training for climbing.
Yes there is a bigger pool from which we can draw talent from now and Lattice aren’t solely responsible for top-end improvements, but I’d say they can take credit for an amount - especially of our current crop of top Brits:
Bosi multiple 9A wad, multiple 8B+ flashes
Aiden - 9A, close on Burden and his midnight project sounds potentially as hard or harder.
Josh ibbotson - 9b wad and has basically ticked all the hard routes in Yorkshire!?
Toby Roberts - Ollie has personally trained Toby for a number of years now and to my mind there is no doubt that without Ollie Toby wouldn’t be our most successful competition athlete (bar Shauna) and certainly wouldn’t be in the Olympics. (I think Ollie coached him
for free for much/all of this - could be wrong on that)
The lattice coaches all do a lot of CPD both in house and with people from other sports and universities giving lectures on a wide variety of topics…
I don’t think you could say they aren’t very knowledgeable if you actually knew any of them tbh…
I might be biased because both my partner and some of my closest friends are coaches/lattice droids but that also allows me to see how much work they put in, how knowledgeable they are and how many people they help achieve their goals and more in lots of cases.
Not to mention all the free stuff they put out.
Rant over… :boxing:
To counter what I’ve just said - good on you though if you do remain open-minded whilst you take this course…
and I also hope you don’t claim any sort of expertise or take any money in your professional life whatever that may be :tease:
I dunno, what is expert?
These guys were all superb climbers who started young, I don't think pointing at those guys as proof of the efficacy (especially to those of us over 40) of lattice is necessarily valid.
Edit: I did write my qualifications but that was too nauseating
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I bought them up because in the quote it said “in general top end performance improvements” in Barrows’ post and then you said “it chafes me a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for “expertise” in a phenomenon they most likely had little or no influence over”
Those guys all have natural talent and have worked hard, they might have got there without. But they might have also not. Schrödinger’s boulderers.
I never mentioned 40yr old boulderers who by the sounds of it are really handy in spite of having kids… though I bet they have helped loads of 40yr olds too though can’t give any names + cvs to prove it.
Also sounds like you have done some academia! Shockingly a lot of the lattice people have letters too… and also practical experience.
Anyway enjoy your free course! Maybe you can get some more letters? LttceF.An?
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and I also hope you don’t claim any sort of expertise or take any money in your professional life whatever that may be :tease:
I know this was said in jest. And I agree with all you said about Lattice. But I'd like to take the opportunity to express admiration and thanks to pathologists and say how I think they should be well paid and highly respected (irrespective of whether I'm in a muddle as to who does what).
When I had lymphoma, the doctor told me that the component of the medical system that I had most cause to thank was the pathologist -even though patients never have contact with them.
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I get the impression that most of the cynicism with lattice comes more from the selling of training plans than the coaching. The assessments that seem y to be based around going around a seeming now defunct latticed wooden board haven't helped. If I won the lottery I'd love to have some coaching but would never pay for a training plan unless it was part of the actual coaching. Anyway loads of great lattice videos online so don't doubt the quality of the coaching.
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and I also hope you don’t claim any sort of expertise or take any money in your professional life whatever that may be :tease:
I know this was said in jest. And I agree with all you said about Lattice. But I'd like to take the opportunity to express admiration and thanks to pathologists and say how I think they should be well paid and highly respected (irrespective of whether I'm in a muddle as to who does what).
When I had lymphoma, the doctor told me that the component of the medical system that I had most cause to thank was the pathologist -even though patients never have contact with them.
Is that what Tim Palmer is? A pathologist? Oooooh! 8)
I’m just a knuckle dragging rope tech so didn’t know what half of them letters were!
Was defo said in jest!
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I didn't want to make things personal, I am sorry if I have upset you Duncan.
I just feel that maybe the trend toward everyone paying for coaching is maybe not the best for the individual or the sport. I think a lot of it seems over priced. I am more than happy to be proved wrong hence my taking up remus's kind offer. Anyway I will leave it there.
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While I'm in the camp of 'training works' and I believe some of the more contemporary training methods are better than some of the old methods they've replaced, I understand Tim's reservations.
People have trained and improved at climbing, but that does not mean the training resulted in the improvement. I think it probably did, but I'm biased because I want to believe the improvements I've made myself are the result of my meticulously planned and executed training... I can say with confidence that the training I'm doing now now is making me stronger, but not that it's better for improving climbing performance than training of old.
The Lattice data set is probably the closest thing we have to evidence on what works (e.g. climbing performance being loosely correlated with the ability to hang on a 20mm edge), but it is flawed IMO (though commendable).
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I think this is the second thread tangent to discuss the phenomenon of modern coaching in as many weeks, maybe it deserves a dedicated post.
When I started climbing back when Thatcher still held the reins, I learnt from a family friend. When I got to university, the model was learn from those who were better than you ( believe it or not Andy Farnell). I stayed in our uni climbing club far too long as I settled in the area, and as it was a flat land university with little local climbing, I soon became that "best" climber. This pool of climbers was quite similar to our world today, loads of people new to the sport, compared to the smaller pool of peer taught experienced and grizzled climbers, to maintain that peer led system.
The mags threw out some training advice, and many walls sprouted a campus board. The coaching that was around was personality led, and training advice was a commodity to be hoarded and passed on at a price.
There came a time when it was realised that this culture was without moderation, and so some ( successful) coaches chad it all correct and some.. didn't.
A coaching symposium was held at plas y brenin, was held, and the conclusion was that properly sharing information, moderation and actual science was the way forward.
I believe this was the starting point of modern coaching in the UK. It was just over a decade ago I think.
Lattice get a lot of stick for their production line of training plans and Tom's ( successful) business model. However, they have some of the best one to one coaches I know.
I head up coaching for the climbing wall I work for. Most of the clients I gain are time poor and lacking the peer lead climbing community we older climbers grew up in. I'm pleased that I've been able to develop enough coaching skills to help them. Certainly if we had the knowledge we have now, just thirty years ago, my climbing journey would be very different.
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I think we should split the topic.
Anyway, one of the few things we know absolutely for certain is that training should be individualised. For people who have not coached someone: you cannot even begin to imagine how much time this take.
Making standard training plans might be very cost effective, but standard training plans on unsupervised traineees is also a very effective way of sending big cohorts to injury* or burn-out. Regardelss, unless the plan is truly moronic, the trainees who complete the plans should improve at decent to very decent rates.
*it took seven years for my bh to fix the shoulder injuries she got from her un-individualised and un-supervised training plan (and quite a lot of my time to plan and supervise her physio). I'm a bit pissed off at this model, that was/is very common in Catalonia.
More on topic: if someone wants to improve their lead climbing and has 180 euros to spend on a video-course, why on earth should they not spend it on one made by Adam Ondra? He is extremely articulate and if there is anyone who knows more about how to improve in climbing I would be much surprised.
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This all feels very akin for me to people paying for financial advice, in the sense that at heart managing your money for most people is really very simple and can be boiled down to a few extremely basic principles. And yet, I suspect the number of people who make it through life without ever worrying about money is vanishingly small. So whilst it really is very easy to learn the principles yourself and apply these to all the scenarios you find yourself in, most people benefit from having an "expert" guide them, especially as those scenarios get more complex and intricate, or when ego overtakes income / wealth (ability / strength in climbing).
The issue, which is what clearly happens in finance, is if the industry then ends up overcomplicating things for people, which generally leads to poorer outcomes if regulation doesn't intervene.
hmmm..... I see Lattice etc as an example of capitalism/free-enterprise doing great stuff. Meanwhile I see the whole pickle society has got into with a bloated financial sector as being an example of things going off the rails!
In the last 40years or so, we have gone from 70% of GDP going to wages to now only 50% with the rest going as interest/dividends/buybacks/etc. We get told not to push back against that because returns-to-capital fund pensions and insurance etc. But actually much of it gets diverted to fund expansion of the financial sector. The worst thing about that is that it employs many of the hardest working and cleverest people who then aren't available to do the things that society needs (or doesn't need but are nice to have such as climbing coaching I guess).
I'd prefer to see stuff such as ample government PAYGO pensions and excellent universal public services so that people had less cause for savings pots. But as things are, if anyone does have savings, then perhaps be aware that the interests of the personal finance industry are in conflict with yours. Perhaps pay Lattice/Ondra/etc to save some time and redeploy that time looking at excellent free info about personal finance eg https://portfoliocharts.com/
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You could offer a coaching service on how to push forum threads further off topic Stone.
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You could offer a coaching service on how to push forum threads further off topic Stone.
Believe it or not, I hold back lots of worse topic slippage transgressions ;D
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I didn't want to make things personal, I am sorry if I have upset you Duncan.
I just feel that maybe the trend toward everyone paying for coaching is maybe not the best for the individual or the sport. I think a lot of it seems over priced. I am more than happy to be proved wrong hence my taking up remus's kind offer. Anyway I will leave it there.
Hi Tim,
Sorry if that last comment on your profession sounded like a dig… it wasn’t meant to be - the problem with written word written in a hurry.
You haven’t upset me I just find the whole lattice bashing quite irksome probably mostly because I know well the hard work, psyche for climbing/personal progression and progression of others + how nice a company lattice is, especially considering we all do jobs for a living and buy stuff from companies that are nowhere near as well meaning.
Sorry if you felt snapped at/ personally attacked.
In all seriousness good luck with the course - I do hope you enjoy it and learn some good and useful stuff!
A sheepish Duncan
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There's no doubt that climbing coaching works, and further more that it's better now than it's ever been before.
I've always preferred the autodidactic approach ( ooo look at me with my big words despite being a knuckle dragging rope tech ). The main reason being that I'm a cheapskate and also that if I do ever manage to drag my way up something then I think it enhances the sense of achievement. Thats just a personal feeling though I don't expect everyone should adopt this approach as, some seem purely motivated by improving at all costs regardless of how they achieve it. I also get that having a climbing coach will probably make the journey of improvement more effective.
I do however think that improving at climbing is a journey and it's a marathon not a sprint. Learning how to get better at climbing can be as rewarding as climbing itself and in doing so you'll meet a shit load of people and have a ton of good experiences along the way. To me these mean more when you try and get after it yourself instead of jumping on someone's training treadmill as I sort of feel like that as soon as you put a price on something like you take can end up taking away it's value.
Please don't read this as a dig at people who take coaching or at coaches themselves I'm just saying there's different ways of viewing the path we all take in climbing when it comes to trying to climb harder.
I guess I'm just trying to put in to words here one possible reason that a lot of us grumpy old people are a bit suspicious of the massive upward trend in people taking coaching. It seems like everyone who starts rapidly ends up in a coaching programme of some description and I can't quite articulate why but I feel like we're loosing something the more this happens.
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I guess I'm just trying to put in to words here one possible reason that a lot of us grumpy old people are a bit suspicious of the massive upward trend in people taking coaching. It seems like everyone who starts rapidly ends up in a coaching programme of some description and I can't quite articulate why but I feel like we're loosing something the more this happens.
I also haven't ever paid for coaching/training plans etc except for my first ever go at climbing, which was with an instructor, when I was a school kid, as a present from my parents.
But what I struggle to understand is the resistance many people seem to have towards people other than them getting coaching etc.
Are you trying to protect them from themselves (I guess like I how I'm for restrictions on advertising of gambling, smoking and ultra-processed-food)? Or do you feel that other people being coached impedes your enjoyment of climbing?
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Fair questions stone.
I'm in no way trying to resist anyone getting coaching and I think that if it's something people want to do then they should crack on and I really hope it works for them and they they enjoy it.
Nothing anyone else does is going to impede my enjoyment of climbing it really doesn't bother me in that way. My relationship with climbing is between me and the activity and no one else.
I'm just saying I hope people understand that getting coaching isn't the only way to improve at climbing so that if the option isn't available to them then all hope is not lost in trying to get better.
I want climbing and all of it's aspects to be as inclusive as possible for everyone who is intrinsically motivated to take part.
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Motivation seems to be the key here, certainly I often feel in the minority nowadays when I state my primary motivation as adventure. In many ways the classic peer led pathways were adventure driven.
Now more and more are primarily driven by fitness, and other physical metrics (which coaching so readily satisfies), I can recognise a feeling of something lost.
However, physical training has given me more options and extended my climbing life, so I guess the question is how we can fan the spirit of adventure
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People love min/maxing things including their training. Taking all the guesswork out of training is one of the many reasons people choose to sign up to coaching or training plans. Especially those who are time poor (and yeah I get that there are some exceptions out there of wads who crush without a plan but they are the exception).
This has essentially taken the age old climbing apprenticeship and made it more widely available through commodification. As others have said finding information in the past was done through whispers below the campus rungs, or a friend of your dads who climbed taking you out on weekends to do trad, not everyone has those opportunities and so coaching is an excellent way to accelerate the strength/power aspect of the sport. Not everyone has the opportunity to climb with groups or partners who are better than them to learn from. There’s a myriad of reasons. Some climbers just want to get stronger/better at all costs, there’s nothing wrong with that.
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(and yeah I get that there are some exceptions out there of wads who crush without a plan but they are the exception).
Looking through the prism of sport climbing, I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. I actually think quite a lot of (perhaps the majority of?) high level sport climbers that are focused on rock (as opposed to comps) are not coached and do not write down formal plans - but they don't necessarily need to, as they're thoughtful about the climbing they're doing and what they need to improve on. I think this seems especially true in places like Spain with lots of rock and good weather
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It's interesting that you say people want to get strong 'at all costs' and yes climbing is incredibly addictive. So its possible people are paying for coaching and training plans that they can't really afford and their money would be better spent elsewhere. I guess it's good we have the choice - if I was a young climber now I think I'd rather spend my money on coaching rather than the mountaineering gear I spent my student loan on.
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(and yeah I get that there are some exceptions out there of wads who crush without a plan but they are the exception).
Looking through the prism of sport climbing, I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. I actually think quite a lot of (perhaps the majority of?) high level sport climbers that are focused on rock (as opposed to comps) are not coached and do not write down formal plans - but they don't necessarily need to, as they're thoughtful about the climbing they're doing and what they need to improve on. I think this seems especially true in places like Spain with lots of rock and good weather
A lot of the crushers in the UK, both boulderers and sport climbers alike were forged in the crucible of teams which coached them from a super young age. Look at people like Pete Dawson and his cohort who all came up through kids teams and team GB all of which provide coaching (albeit not paid) - I’d agree it’s likely different in places like Spain where you’re not restricted to climbing outside twice a year because it’s snowed and then rained for 10 days consecutively, they can get a lot more mileage than we can. So I guess we try to make the most of the free time we have by min/maxing our training so when we do get to climb outside we’re in good condition.
I’ve personally had coaching for around 3 years and it’s helped my climbing loads. Being accountable to my coach means I stick to it and am consistent with my training year round!
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As a hypothetical dingdong, let’s say coaching was no longer available to you. Would you still go climbing and try to improve ?
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As a hypothetical dingdong, let’s say coaching was no longer available to you. Would you still go climbing and try to improve ?
Yeah but I probably wouldn’t train anywhere near as much or be as structured with peaking at specific times in a cycle etc
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Ok and do you think that as a result you’d end up enjoying climbing less ?
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I've done various periods in my life of training a lot and others where I've barely trained. I'm probably in the middle of the two now. The points I've trained lots have delivered some of the best climbing experiences I'll ever have. I get why people do it. Paying for a training plan/coach obviously would have in no way devalued the outcome, but in my head, stylistically I'm still glad I didn't and that I worked it out for myself, even though it was inefficient, involved asking loads of people for advice, loads of trial and error etc etc. Maybe this is just me? A bit like how I'm always more pleased to do a problem or route ground up rather than throwing a rope down it. This is obviously a philosophical position so it's understandable that it isn't shared by everyone, but I sympathise with those who think that the commodification of training means something has been lost.
The type of training I've always done has been very specific. I've never remotely engaged with cycles, peaking for things etc. I'm not scientifically minded and a small part of me thinks that it hugely overcomplicates things. I continue to think that training isn't rocket science and it always seems pretty obvious to me what I need to train. Fingers weak? Do some fingerboarding.
Not feeling fit? Get pumped on a circuit board /do some foot on campusing. If I want to climb Jason's roof I know I'll have to do some heel hook work, some stretching and climb some compression stuff. I get there's way more to it than that but I also do think people can tie themselves in knots about cycles etc thinking about cycles and what to train when more often an application of occams razor would suffice.
Crucially to pick up on Moos q to Dingdong I dont think I enjoy climbing any less when I'm not training as opposed to when I do.
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Ok and do you think that as a result you’d end up enjoying climbing less ?
Not at all, but I love training and having Mina as a coach means I have a huge wealth of knowledge at my disposal and someone I can bounce ideas off
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On reflection I've always had very specific routes and problems I want to do and have trained specifically for them having been on them and realised my many deficiencies. If I was interested in more generic improvement, I can see how one might lack the specific focus to work out what to train.
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Oooh the annual Lattice bashing thread is early this year :bounce:
I know two people who did Tom/Lattice plans, one quit, the other went mad
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I suppose the issue for Tim there being that he is a 40(?) something with two kids and a full time job etc. yet still manages to knock off 8Bs on his holidays.
This all feels very akin for me to people paying for financial advice, in the sense that at heart managing your money for most people is really very simple and can be boiled down to a few extremely basic principles. And yet, I suspect the number of people who make it through life without ever worrying about money is vanishingly small. So whilst it really is very easy to learn the principles yourself and apply these to all the scenarios you find yourself in, most people benefit from having an "expert" guide them, especially as those scenarios get more complex and intricate, or when ego overtakes income / wealth (ability / strength in climbing).
The issue, which is what clearly happens in finance, is if the industry then ends up overcomplicating things for people, which generally leads to poorer outcomes if regulation doesn't intervene. And there will always be people who are able to do it themselves, but I think it's fairly uncharitable for those lucky few to poor scorn on both those who need help and those trying to provide it. It's the climbing equivalent of Pete making success in day trading look easy and suggesting everyone could do the same (much as I respect both Tim and Pete!).
Regarding the idea that the general improvement in the population level climbing ability is down to the improvement in facilities; I think that's really simplistic and ignores the fact that the two things (improved facilities and improved training knowledge) have occurred at precisely the same time, so unravelling one from the other is impossible. I think they're so heavily linked you couldn't really have had one without the other and vice versa.
There's a lot in there that I agree with, except that I don't day trade (or I'd be penniless!).
A way I think about the effects of normalisation of climbing training as a go-to for people who get keen on climbing, is the effects of the normalisation of satnav on people's ability to read a map. Navigating around UK/Europe by reading a map / using google map on your phone in basic top-down 2D view is an acquired skill carried out without much thought by people of a certain age. Below that age being able to navigate using a basic top-down 2D map is seemingly becoming less common and a harder skill, as people rely on the more efficient option of satnav or allowing google map on your phone to direct you. It might be efficient but it leaves you dumber, and is only efficient when you have it available. Without developing less efficient skills of using a map to fall back on you can end up back to being a punter without the ability to find your way.
Training obviously works. And high end coaches have much expertise. But people making the point that some climbing coaches are highly-qualified experts are missing the wider point. They might be highly qualified, but if this level of expertise isn't required to coach a basic task then you're probably overpaying - it doesn't require a professional tradesperson to efficiently change a plug, but you can hire one and your plug will be efficiently changed. It's Bradders' 'over-complication of basic financial advice'. I view the talk about requiring 'expertise' in the same sentence as talking about training below a certain level of difficulty as selling fashionable snake oil.
I'd be interested in the consensus on what level of 'expertise' is involved in being able to give effective training advice to anyone below the low 8th grade. My guestimate, about the level of 'expertise' of doing a GCSE, i.e. something most reasonably motivated people with a basic grasp of a topic could handle! Above a typical plateau in the low 8s I think it's probably a very different story.
BTW however nice and on-trend Duncan's mates are is irrelevant to the question and a bit of a straw man. I doubt anyone suspects they *aren't* nice and hard-working people, most people are when you get to know them. It's just a completely meaningless 'halo' in a discussion about the value of 'expertise' and whether expertise is actually necessary.
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If I want to climb Jason's roof I know I'll have to do some heel hook work, some stretching and climb some compression stuff.
That would probably be enough for you to climb Jason's Roof. But let's say you climb it and decide that you really enjoy compression boulders, and your long term goal is now to climb The Big Island. Do you think you might start training a bit differently? Potentially entertaining the idea of periodization?
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Those guys all have natural talent and have worked hard, they might have got there without. But they might have also not. Schrödinger’s boulderers.
See, this is one of the things about Lattice that's most bothered me in the past ('bothered' is a bit strong but I can't currently think of better wording); onboarding of climbers that have already performed to a high level and associating that success with the brand. Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd attribute Aiden's training success (if we're taking his own effort for granted) to being a prodigy of Carlisle Slapper (not a particular slouch when it comes to training)? Am I wrong here, was Bosi actually trained by Lattice far far earlier than I was aware? He seemed to be on a steep upward trajectory before I associated him with the brand.
Another thing I've been a little unsure of (and again, this is from memory so I could be mistaken) was selling Lite Plans aimed at 6a climbers (was there a 6a, 7a and 8a)? Neither of these things are anything new in other sports or business (yes JWI, I know, I know... no evidence that climbing/climbers should be different) and as I get older I realise this is probably more me / my feelings on the way climbing has evolved (when T_B explained the philosophy regarding The Fell Running Association with regard to growth [i.e. not something they actively pursue] I thought that sounds perfect, which I'll admit isn't the consensus view). I've discussed why I think selling plans to people at the lower end is IMO shortsighted with respect to their long-term performance. That's not my thinking about coaching though. I think coaches can have a place if there's a heavy focus towards skills (isn't that why good beta was to climb with people better than you as you'd either learn by osmosis or by them bluntly telling you what you're doing wrong?).
In terms of Tom driving a McLaren, I couldn't care less how people choose to spend their money (although something like a Noble M12 would be a better fit?). From what I understand he had a job in finance before his job was in climbing and one thing I've learnt from my neighbours is that some people appear to have lots of money but actually are just insanely leveraged (who TF finances a BBQ purchase?) so you shouldn't read anything into appearances. Whatever your opinions it's hard to ignore that Lattice is successful and likewise the Wideboyz brand. Also, climbers finding ways to remain in climbing for work isn't something that's overly new.
Tom's always been pretty generous towards me in the early days of Lattice with knowledge sharing (and fairly receptive to criticism) and trying to look into things like critical power IMO is fascinating stuff (again, I think people took my scepticism of it's applicability currently the wrong way in a previous thread). It's also hard to argue that the Crimpd app isn't really quite good and remains free to access (I'm sure it's also developed a lot since I last downloaded a copy).
People needing to pay a fee to be accountable blows my mind but isn't something new.
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Those guys all have natural talent and have worked hard, they might have got there without. But they might have also not. Schrödinger’s boulderers.
See, this is one of the things about Lattice that's most bothered me in the past ('bothered' is a bit strong but I can't currently think of better wording); onboarding of climbers that have already performed to a high level and associating that success with the brand. Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd attribute Aiden's training success (if we're taking his own effort for granted) to being a prodigy of Carlisle Slapper (not a particular slouch when it comes to training)? Am I wrong here, was Bosi actually trained by Lattice far far earlier than I was aware? He seemed to be on a steep upward trajectory before I associated him with the brand.
Another thing I've been a little unsure of (and again, this is from memory so I could be mistaken) was selling Lite Plans aimed at 6a climbers (was there a 6a, 7a and 8a)? Neither of these things are anything new in other sports or business (yes JWI, I know, I know... no evidence that climbing/climbers should be different) and as I get older I realise this is probably more me / my feelings on the way climbing has evolved (when T_B explained the philosophy regarding The Fell Running Association with regard to growth [i.e. not something they actively pursue] I thought that sounds perfect, which I'll admit isn't the consensus view). I've discussed why I think selling plans to people at the lower end is IMO shortsighted with respect to their long-term performance. That's not my thinking about coaching though. I think coaches can have a place if there's a heavy focus towards skills (isn't that why good beta was to climb with people better than you as you'd either learn by osmosis or by them bluntly telling you what you're doing wrong?).
In terms of Tom driving a McLaren, I couldn't care less how people choose to spend their money (although something like a Noble M12 would be a better fit?). From what I understand he had a job in finance before his job was in climbing and one thing I've learnt from my neighbours is that some people appear to have lots of money but actually are just insanely leveraged (who TF finances a BBQ purchase?) so you shouldn't read anything into appearances. Whatever your opinions it's hard to ignore that Lattice is successful and likewise the Wideboyz brand. Also, climbers finding ways to remain in climbing for work isn't something that's overly new.
Tom's always been pretty generous towards me in the early days of Lattice with knowledge sharing (and fairly receptive to criticism) and trying to look into things like critical power IMO is fascinating stuff (again, I think people took my scepticism of it's applicability currently the wrong way in a previous thread). It's also hard to argue that the Crimpd app isn't really quite good and remains free to access (I'm sure it's also developed a lot since I last downloaded a copy).
People needing to pay a fee to be accountable blows my mind but isn't something new.
Aidan started climbing at 13 and by 15 had already made team GB where Tom was a coach I believe? Someone correct me if I’m wrong through!
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I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.
Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over
Ah, here's where I think our views differ. I think the key driver in the change in top-end performance (e.g., the number of people climbing 9b or 8C+ or more) between 15 years ago and now is likely to be the larger pool of talent and younger starting age. However, I think it is much easier for an averagely-talented and quite motived climber to achieve 8c now that it was 15 years ago, and a key driver for that is kneepads much more accessible knowledge on how to improve at climbing and train for climbing (and widespread testimonies of the improvements that that can bring)
Also, the more I think about it the more strange that argument is. While I have had little to no influence in the expansion of solar PV deployment, if you want me and my company to model manufacturing costs for a prospective US PV factory we will still charge you for it. A doctor may not have personally had any influence on improving treatments for disease X, but I still expect them to get paid for advising me on how to treat disease X (if only so I don't have to go to med school for 5 years).
Larger pool of talent had definitely role in the rate of grade progression but to me I think the evolution of training methodology has surely played an equally important part. The difference is so stark that guys at the top end like Will are sending boulders in a couple tries that were right at the cutting edge and taking the top climbers of yester year multiple seasons of work to send.
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I don't think knowledge about physical training has improved that much from the late 80s to be honest. At least not for sport climbing. I doubt many coaches today know a lot of things that JiBe did not know in 1987. And two the three 9c climbers in the world never had much or any formal coaching.
What has changed a lot is mass access to decent year round training facilities, and quick dissimination of efficient movement patterns, first through cheap travel to international hot-spots, then later through video and finally on-line video.
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The difference is so stark that guys at the top end like Will are sending boulders in a couple tries that were right at the cutting edge and taking the top climbers of yester year multiple seasons of work to send.
The 9A grade is best part of a decade old now, so the difference isn’t that stark!
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I'd be interested in the consensus on what level of 'expertise' is involved in being able to give effective training advice to anyone below the low 8th grade. My guestimate, about the level of 'expertise' of doing a GCSE, i.e. something most reasonably motivated people with a basic grasp of a topic could handle! Above a typical plateau in the low 8s I think it's probably a very different story.
All the work I've done as a coach has been for sub 8 climbers.
The ceilings they've been butting their heads against have not been an issue of training, but technique and tactics. It's not so much the "how to" they benefit from, as the "why it works" and how that can be examined, experimented with and MacGyvered into a variety of situations.
I struggle with the term expertise, but I've worked quite hard not only to understand how climbing movement works, but how to communicate this to people who ' haven't learnt the language yet '.
I do agree that training knowledge is rarely the limiting factor for people climbing below low 8's , at least in sport climbing.
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Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd attribute Aiden's training success (if we're taking his own effort for granted) to being a prodigy of Carlisle Slapper (not a particular slouch when it comes to training)? Am I wrong here, was Bosi actually trained by Lattice far far earlier than I was aware? He seemed to be on a steep upward trajectory before I associated him with the brand.
Aidan was already operating at a high level when he started working with Lattice (around 2020 I think?), but I'd argue he's continued to improve since then https://climbing-history.org/climber/227/aidan-roberts Obviously I don't want to make it sound like this is solely due to Lattice's input, as there's a huge amount of graft and skill required from a climber at this level to continue making improvements at the top level, but I know Ollie T has put a lot of time and effort in to coaching and training him and changed how he trained.
Bosi has been working with Tom / Lattice since I started there around 2015. Likewise, Toby Roberts was working with Ollie for a long time before his mega comp season last year.
To my mind, those three are the best climbers in the UK right now.
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The difference is so stark that guys at the top end like Will are sending boulders in a couple tries that were right at the cutting edge and taking the top climbers of yester year multiple seasons of work to send.
The 9A grade is best part of a decade old now, so the difference isn’t that stark!
Burden took Nalle 100+ sessions over three years, not including sessions spent training. Will did the second ascent in 14 sessions, plus 10 sessions training on the replica. That's a big difference imo.
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None of which means that focusing on specific training plans is ideal for newish / inexperienced climbers at 6A rather than 9A....
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I think you’d need to look at the speed a comparable first ascent was done rather than a first ascent versus a repeat. ( I’m not saying that would prove you wrong ).
I’d also note that burden isn’t something which I’d typically say was nalle’s style. I wonder how bosi would get on with doing the black circuit at cuisiniere that’d be a really interesting challenge to watch him take on.
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In terms of Tom driving a McLaren, I couldn't care less how people choose to spend their money
I wonder whether part of what makes me feel so fiercely defensive of Lattice etc (even though I'm not a customer) is that paying for coaching exemplifies where luxury consumerism has to shift to, if our planet is to have a hope. IMO paying for coaching is the perfect environmentally friendly luxury.
I'm full of admiration for climbers such as Zippy who don't have a car.
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Perhaps Lattice etc have especially helped the least-clued-up 50% of climbers.
I remember when I first moved to the Peak just over 20years ago, I went to Hobson Moor as it's close to me. I asked people there about sport climbing. I was told that decent sport climbing in the Peak started at about 7b+ and in order to climb like that it was necessary to do lots of campus-boarding and most people would just get injured from such training. The guy who told me this, said he had given it a whirl, had done a 7b+ but had also got catastrophic bad elbows from all the campus-boarding. Anyway he was up for doing some trad and I did go trad climbing with him quite a few times.
I also mooched around at the Tor, and from that, it was very apparent that that campus-boarding spiel was nonsense.
I'm thinking though that thanks to Lattice etc, such whack notions are now much less likely to take hold with anyone. A very cursory google would now contradict them.
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I think you’d need to look at the speed a comparable first ascent was done rather than a first ascent versus a repeat. ( I’m not saying that would prove you wrong ).
I'm pretty sure Nalle spent most of time using a duff sequence on Burden.
I've done various periods in my life of training a lot and others where I've barely trained. I'm probably in the middle of the two now. The points I've trained lots have delivered some of the best climbing experiences I'll ever have. I get why people do it. Paying for a training plan/coach obviously would have in no way devalued the outcome, but in my head, stylistically I'm still glad I didn't and that I worked it out for myself, even though it was inefficient, involved asking loads of people for advice, loads of trial and error etc etc. Maybe this is just me? A bit like how I'm always more pleased to do a problem or route ground up rather than throwing a rope down it. This is obviously a philosophical position so it's understandable that it isn't shared by everyone, but I sympathise with those who think that the commodification of training means something has been lost.
I'm exactly the same. I also can't help but romanticise the idea of an uncoached crusher, despite how ridiculous that is.
Although I'm certain that if my mates all started getting coached I would quickly follow suit for fear of them leaving me behind :lol:
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...To my mind, those three are the best climbers in the UK right now.
My point was regarding the onboarding; at the time it felt like Aiden's successes (to use him as an example) were linked to the brand in a way that felt a touch disingenuous (but not unique in that other sports and businesses do similar things).
Was I wrong about the Lattice Lite plans? It feeds into Stone's comment:
I'm thinking though that thanks to Lattice etc, such whack notions are now much less likely to take hold with anyone. A very cursory google would now contradict them.
I think this discussion is becoming very cylic; the counter point to this is people now Google and decide they need a periodized training programme. As GME pointed out on another thread, there was originally a grade barrier to entry.
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My impression (happy to be corrected) is that such a 7a+ redpoint climber aspiring for 7b+ might now read/pay-for Lattice stuff, do a mix of shoulder conditioning and timed bouldering/circuits and get into the 8s relatively untroubled by injuries.
Just having a go at >7b+ routes and doing some limestone bouldering would also probably be fine for many people in that situation. But evidently that guy didn't take that path in the days before Lattice.
Might periodisation also help to prevent injuries even for those starting from a weak/under-trained starting point? I'm so ignorant about all of this.
Ondra's video course looks to be entirely targeted at the other criticism people have with commercial training in that it seems to be all about movement efficiency. And yet people said he was just a grifter too.
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My impression (happy to be corrected) is that such a 7a+ redpoint climber aspiring for 7b+ might now read/pay-for Lattice stuff, do a mix of shoulder conditioning and timed bouldering/circuits and get into the 8s relatively untroubled by injuries.
On what are you basing this impression? It's completely unprovable either way. Plenty of people get injured training.
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My impression was that for a relatively weak climber to be using campus-boarding as a mainstay (as that guy was), was vastly more likely to cause injury than whatever Lattice would advise.
PS, Paul was quoting a bit from my comment: https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,33916.msg689414.html#msg689414
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That would probably be enough for you to climb Jason's Roof. But let's say you climb it and decide that you really enjoy compression boulders, and your long term goal is now to climb The Big Island. Do you think you might start training a bit differently? Potentially entertaining the idea of periodization?
I know the point you're trying to make here but the sheer unlikelihood of this made me laugh. Bouldering 8C might as well be in a different galaxy! I'd be happy with a single 8A :lol:
It's easier to answer this question talking about sport climbing cause that's my main focus. I think if I wanted to climb 8c+ or harder I would have to train seriously. Maybe I would engage with periodisation, I don't know. The whole thing seems pretty fraught with risk/guesswork given the unreliability of UK lime! I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.
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I don't really understand the pushback against coaching. Nobody bats an eyelid at sending kids to school or university, getting driving lessons, professional training etc so why is getting someone to help you with climbing any different? It's the same as a teacher setting homework in my mind. I probably could've passed my degree just reading textbooks but the supervisions definitely helped.
Saying that as someone who has mostly self coached but used guides / instructors liberally.
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Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.
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And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.
Perhaps without being "taught" by someone else, but not without learning lots from other people...
I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.
I've not trained for much in the UK, mostly I use things in the UK as training for stuff abroad. I think Preposterous Tales is the exception to that, but it wasn't supposed to be like that - we got fucked with covid restrictions and couldnt go to Spain as planned that Jan, so I made a new focus of being in shape for that, planned to be fit in late Spring and made rough repicas to do indoor power endurance sessions on...
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Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.
I assume you meant "with being taught"?
You can learn to drive from a parent without an instructor. Not sure how much contact time an OU course has but loads of degrees are online study, postgraduate diplomas etc.
It'll vary from person to person, but I stopped going to lectures and just learnt from course notes for the last 3 years of my degree. I also haven't used any technical knowledge from it since graduating.
And I disagree that climbing being "just a hobby" means it's any less worthy of spending money on. More so if anything!
As an interesting parallel, scuba diving in the UK has a big club scene similar to climbing, but everywhere else in the world it's more commercial. If anyone goes abroad to dive they'll almost certainly pay to get a certification, and while then being able to independently dive the norm would be to continue to go to dive shops and join groups with a guide.
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Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.
Nah.
Of course you could, but probably not if you hold down a job, have a family and don’t live within an hour of the Peak.
Anyway, it’s Primacy. Start as you mean to go on, forming habits and learning best practice from the beginning. Trying to train yourself out of bad habits is a far greater ask than starting in the right place.
That and paying a reputable coach to start you on the path, rather than trying to sort the wheat from the chaff in the plethora of googled advice (if you can afford it) is probably a good idea.
You guys are googling from a position of extensive prior knowledge and debate, so you’re seeing the wood, despite the trees. Unfortunately, some of the flashiest, most in your face advice, is shit.
Ultimately, I find it hard to see the harm, it certainly won’t be a waste of money or time and is almost certainly more efficient than the traditional route.
Note: I sold my climbing gym, I’m no longer a Lattice coach and have no skin left in the game. I did however spend more than a decade coaching climbers, OCR racers, potential military recruits (Paras and Bootnecks) and a few trying for selection. It seemed to work and my clients seemed to think it worked, but how would you really know?
Now we need the Lattice identical twin study…
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Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.
I assume you meant "with being taught"?
You can learn to drive from a parent without an instructor. Not sure how much contact time an OU course has but loads of degrees are online study, postgraduate diplomas etc.
It'll vary from person to person, but I stopped going to lectures and just learnt from course notes for the last 3 years of my degree. I also haven't used any technical knowledge from it since graduating.
And I disagree that climbing being "just a hobby" means it's any less worthy of spending money on. More so if anything!
As an interesting parallel, scuba diving in the UK has a big club scene similar to climbing, but everywhere else in the world it's more commercial. If anyone goes abroad to dive they'll almost certainly pay to get a certification, and while then being able to independently dive the norm would be to continue to go to dive shops and join groups with a guide.
I’m one of the “Original” Technical Divers and was part of the DIR and GUE movements, late ‘90s and through the 2000s as we tried to address the high mortality rates and standardise the approach. GUE, absolutely, found training from the OW (climbing equivalent of doing VDiff on a top rope) stage onwards hugely reduced mortality within their cohort. I’m far less militant these days and I feel that went too far, too much “us and them” shit, however, if your goal is deep mixed gas diving (high altitude mountaineering), PADI training is almost the worst way to start and you will have to unlearn so much, it’s a positive drag on your progress. The analogy isn’t so good, since it’s a highly technical, skills based, activity vs a more physical practice ( a high degree of theoretical knowledge is required), though the “muscle memory” and habit forming of good training practice applies equally.
None of this is a new debate. It’s probably thousands of years old.
You “could” teach yourself how to handle a broad sword, but come the battle, the other guy who started as a child, drilling and training with a watchful Master, is probably going to cleave you of your delusions and adequately demonstrate the differences.
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You can learn to drive with a parent as an instructor. It's definitely much more effective to have professional lessons though, and almost everyone does. You can just learn from textbooks. Textbooks plus good teaching is better. Etc etc etc
You can get better at climbing by yourself. But you'd probably be better than you otherwise would be if you get a good coach and/or training plan. I like having a training plan. I like training and trying to get better. Personally I think it's good.
I think people's objections to lattice are less that they do sport science and coaching and more that they come off as very commercial and click bait-y to them. That may or may not be fair. There are some big names behind Lattice that are not very popular, again, may or may not be fair.
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I can totally understand why people use Lattice. It seems to work well, they seem to like it etc. All great and to be applauded etc.
Like I said I really struggle to understand the objections and feel the need to push back against them.
But I suppose the deepest mystery for me is why I don't want to use a training plan/coach/etc for myself ;D
I wonder whether, if I could gain insight into that, it would give me insight into the objections.
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What did Hemingway say?
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
So ‘data driven’ is the antithesis to ‘the romance of adventure’. I suspect that lies (at least to some degree) behind a lot of the ambivalence.
The click baity modern marketing will probably leave a lot of older climbers (ie a big chunk of the ukb demographic) rather cold too. I suspect it works for Magnus because it’s so obviously knowing and he appears not to take himself too seriously. Though I am sure he takes the revenue very seriously indeed, of course.
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From a quick look on the lattice website could the £1,235 a year cost of a coached plan be a reason stone?
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Several people have asserted that coaching (from someone reputable) will provide better results. For the 6 month period I received coaching, I'm not sure my results were better. On paper it looks great: I climbed my first of a grade, and hit a PB on max hangs. However, on reflection, here are some of the negatives:
During the coaching, and as a result of the prescribed volume, it was the first and only time I've had elbow tendonitis.
With circa 5 years of finger training history and having reached a plateau, my initial program prescribed max hangs with linear progression - that is far too simplistic and was never going to work (and didn't). I was moved on to repeaters (still with linear progression) followed by my first ever taper / peaking phase allowing me to express strength I may already have had, hanging an additional 5kg at the end of the 6 month period. After leaving, I had much better results on my own.
I tested average on their 'core strength exercises', which actually tested endurance and not strength in a useful range for bouldering. As a result, I was prescribed a huge amount of floor based 'core exercises'. I improved at them, but it had no positive effect on my climbing (and I haven't done any since to no ill-effect). You might think this is harmless, but it took up time and recoverable training volume.
I think there was way too much focus on 'power endurance', although learning how to program it was one of the better takeaways from the coaching.
The best bit by far, and it's something I'd advise others to consider who are looking for coaching, is the actual 'coaching' bit and not the training plan. I had regular contact with someone who'd been there and done it and knew what I should do to climb my projects.
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The best bit by far, and it's something I'd advise others to consider who are looking for coaching, is the actual 'coaching' bit and not the training plan. I had regular contact with someone who'd been there and done it and knew what I should do to climb my projects.
This right here. All my coaching is tailored towards the 4/5 ongoing projects I have and having someone super knowledgable to bounce training ideas off of is so useful.
The lattice coaches have regular seminars with industry experts from different areas, climbing, strength sports etc. which allows them to have a wide knowledge base, they’re also able to share ideas between each other which then formulates those bespoke plans. At the end of the day though it is luck of the draw as to which coach you get assigned, I’m sure some are better than others.
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I’ve been listening to Steven Dimmitt’s Nugget podcasts a bit recently which, while interesting, can ramble a bit. Ollie Torr’s interview was in a league of its own in terms of being informative and clear. Well worth a listen.
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Maybe I would engage with periodisation, I don't know. The whole thing seems pretty fraught with risk/guesswork given the unreliability of UK lime! I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.
There are other periodisation plans than linear periodisation you know! Some of them optimised for being kind-of in form at least half of the time during the season.
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From a quick look on the lattice website could the £1,235 a year cost of a coached plan be a reason stone?
I am very tight fisted but I don't think that accounts for it. If it were offered to me as a free present, I think I would still be wary.
I suppose I care a lot more about ensuring that climbing for me remains carefree and something I look forward to rather than something I feel I ought to succeed at. There is a lot of dissonance in that. Evidently I ask lots of people at the crag etc about how to improve/avoid-injuries etc. I feel guilty about doing that with Lattice staff when they are on their time off trying to enjoy themselves :lol:
I'm thinking of the various approaches I've seen people take to their climbing. A few years ago I bumped into a couple I'd known at Uni decades ago. It turned out we're neighbours. The neighbours apparently re-did Stanage VDiffs (leading) as what they did for climbing. They just redid them again and again. They loved it. That's great, but I don't feel compelled to do as they do.
Perhaps at the other extreme is someone I climbed with quite a lot a few years ago. He was on a total mission to do an 8a. I think he may have done a 7b+ before the mission commenced. He went all out with a coached periodised training regime. My impression was that he really enjoyed that. His climbing improved leaps and bounds. He was solid at doing 7cs in a session. He seemed extremely stressed when trying an 8a though. He seemed super stoked when he did it. I haven't seen him about much since. I bumped into him bouldering a couple of years later and he was better than me but my impression was that the training cycle etc was a one-off life tick.
Thinking of myself, I probably fall somewhere in the spectrum between the VDiff-repeating-for-decades couple and the tick-the-grade-or-die-trying mindset. But those people seemed to get a lot out of their respective approaches and I wouldn't knock either.
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That would probably be enough for you to climb Jason's Roof. But let's say you climb it and decide that you really enjoy compression boulders, and your long term goal is now to climb The Big Island. Do you think you might start training a bit differently? Potentially entertaining the idea of periodization?
I know the point you're trying to make here but the sheer unlikelihood of this made me laugh. Bouldering 8C might as well be in a different galaxy! I'd be happy with a single 8A :lol:
It's easier to answer this question talking about sport climbing cause that's my main focus. I think if I wanted to climb 8c+ or harder I would have to train seriously. Maybe I would engage with periodisation, I don't know. The whole thing seems pretty fraught with risk/guesswork given the unreliability of UK lime! I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.
I think you're seriously underestimating what you can be achieve in 10 years. If I remember correctly, you've climbed 8c, have the strength to 1 arm an edge, and you are still relatively young. I'd be very surprised if you tried and couldn't climb 9a within 10 years and maybe 9a+.
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I’ve been listening to Steven Dimmitt’s Nugget podcasts a bit recently which, while interesting, can ramble a bit. Ollie Torr’s interview was in a league of its own in terms of being informative and clear. Well worth a listen.
:agree:
I listened to it when you recommended it in another thread.
Ollie needs to get a better microphone though. What he was saying was so interesting it made the struggle to hear well worth it though (I'm guessing people with decent hearing would be fine).
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I'd be very surprised if you tried and moved to Europe and couldn't climb 9a within 10 years and maybe 9a+.
Fixed. The original ignores the fact that for most people living in Britain is a key limiting factor in climbing hard routes at that level due to the very small amount of choice - if you don't like Malham and don't like rat crimps you have precisely one grade 9 route that I can think of to try in the whole country (or maybe 3 if you count boulder-route hybrids). And you might want to go onsighting too because onsighting is the best.
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Preposterous Tales. With your obvious ability I'm surprised you're having to train this hard for an underground E2 in Pembroke.
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I am really bad at bridging grooves...
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You can learn to drive with a parent as an instructor. It's definitely much more effective to have professional lessons though, and almost everyone does. You can just learn from textbooks. Textbooks plus good teaching is better. Etc etc etc
Part of my point is that I think you're less likely to relay a fond memory with a driving instructor versus when you nearly sent you and you're mum into a ditch.
To be clear I've never said that you'll be better at climbing if you don't have coach in terms of absolute grades in fact I know the opposite to be true.
However if you're not an a professional climber then I don't think the absolute grades shouldn't really matter and in my humble opinion you're better off focusing on the experience.
If however the experience of working with a coach to improve your climbing is what you're really looking for then crack on and enjoy it.
The best bit by far, and it's something I'd advise others to consider who are looking for coaching, is the actual 'coaching' bit and not the training plan. I had regular contact with someone who'd been there and done it and knew what I should do to climb my projects.
This right here. All my coaching is tailored towards the 4/5 ongoing projects I have and having someone super knowledgable to bounce training ideas off of is so useful.
I think this bit here has illuminated my thinking a bit, it's the insertion of money into that bit of the experience. Bouncing your ideas of a couple of mates at the crag and trying to get up something together is awesome ( which I'm sure you'll agree ). It turns it into a shared experience which is what the climbing community is all about.
Maybe it's the loss of that community I'm lamenting a bit, it's being gradually replaced with a paid for experience ?
Obviously a paid for coach will likely be more effective at helping get you up stuff but again I'd say it's the journey I value as much as the end result and I'd still feel that a coach would diminish that somewhat by removing the element of discovery.
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You can learn to drive with a parent as an instructor. It's definitely much more effective to have professional lessons though, and almost everyone does. You can just learn from textbooks. Textbooks plus good teaching is better. Etc etc etc
Part of my point is that I think you're less likely to relay a fond memory with a driving instructor versus when you nearly sent you and you're mum into a ditch.
To be clear I've never said that you'll be better at climbing if you don't have coach in terms of absolute grades in fact I know the opposite to be true.
However if you're not an a professional climber then I don't think the absolute grades shouldn't really matter and in my humble opinion you're better off focusing on the experience.
If however the experience of working with a coach to improve your climbing is what you're really looking for then crack on and enjoy it.
The best bit by far, and it's something I'd advise others to consider who are looking for coaching, is the actual 'coaching' bit and not the training plan. I had regular contact with someone who'd been there and done it and knew what I should do to climb my projects.
This right here. All my coaching is tailored towards the 4/5 ongoing projects I have and having someone super knowledgable to bounce training ideas off of is so useful.
I think this bit here has illuminated my thinking a bit, it's the insertion of money into that bit of the experience. Bouncing your ideas of a couple of mates at the crag and trying to get up something together is awesome ( which I'm sure you'll agree ). It turns it into a shared experience which is what the climbing community is all about.
Maybe it's the loss of that community I'm lamenting a bit, it's being gradually replaced with a paid for experience ?
Obviously a paid for coach will likely be more effective at helping get you up stuff but again I'd say it's the journey I value as much as the end result and I'd still feel that a coach would diminish that somewhat by removing the element of discovery.
What loss of community? It's probably more communal now than it was 30 years ago, I go outside 3 or so times a week and always go with friends or bump into people I know who I end up climbing with?
If i'm projecting something at my limit, I go on my own, I don't enjoy limit bouldering with other people because I can't get into the right headspace, I still have the journey of discovery on my own terms, it's just that my coach helps me align my training to those goals so my body is robust and doesn't get injured when im trying limit stuff. It's not like they're grabbing my arms and legs and moving my hips for me :lol:
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That’s really good to hear I guess there’ll always be a contingent of people who value getting out and about.
I know what you mean about trying hard on your own it puts me off when I think I’m taking up other peoples time. Bit of ball ache setting up a camera if you’re trying something closer to your limit though.
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This thread is classic UKB, apart from the lack of humour.
A general observation, which is thirty years in gestation, is that a lot of people really just don't like the idea of anyone making a living/ any money out of rock climbing.
Just go out and wax the curb in front of your house, jumpers for goal posts, shaking your way up Inverted V is still free. Some other people want to improve and think getting help, if only to make sense of the frankly baffling amount of information available now, is a good idea.
A one time price of less than £200 for a course by the worlds greatest climber is not piss take at all. Its probably quite good value. And it isn't really aimed at any of us, so it doesn't matter. I wish him well.
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Imagine if Michael Jordan released an online course for £200 on how to shoot hoops, they'd probably be queueing up to sign his autograph
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Why get an Ondra training course when you can get one from the king himself?
https://www.udemy.com/course/how-to-climb-your-best-tyler-landman/
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Why get an Ondra training course when you can get one from the king himself?
https://www.udemy.com/course/how-to-climb-your-best-tyler-landman/
Certainly looks a lot more wholesome than the knife fighting video course from there. I wonder whether they will offer a poisoning course.
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Why get an Ondra training course when you can get one from the king himself?
https://www.udemy.com/course/how-to-climb-your-best-tyler-landman/
Certificate of completion too, vital stuff.