UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: kingholmesy on June 19, 2020, 09:05:52 pm
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what's the deal with carn vellan now, did the other sport routes keep their bolts?
Ive got the 2000 cc guide to the area which says rewind was originally bolted which I didn't know.
Rewind was originally called Blue Sky Lightening when it was climbed on bolts. It was renamed Rewind after Mark repeated it on trad gear (after much criticism for bolting a Cornish sea cliff).
Monster Munch still has its bolts, but I am not sure what state they’re in (and re-bolting would be considered unacceptable by many).
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what's the deal with carn vellan now, did the other sport routes keep their bolts?
Ive got the 2000 cc guide to the area which says rewind was originally bolted which I didn't know.
Monster Munch still has its bolts, but I am not sure what state they’re in (and re-bolting would be considered unacceptable by many).
Thanks for the reply.
Thats a shame, thought they'd be able to comprehend a crag with coexisting styles.
Let's hope someone local can investigate doing the other lines as trad routes!?
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https://youtu.be/_mYwNyJjwWY (https://youtu.be/_mYwNyJjwWY)
:worms:
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That looks like the best cliff in the UK. From where i sit, across the pond, its a shame the country's sport climbing leaders haven't adopted it and legitimized such an amazing feature.
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what's the deal with carn vellan now, did the other sport routes keep their bolts?
Ive got the 2000 cc guide to the area which says rewind was originally bolted which I didn't know.
Rewind was originally called Blue Sky Lightening when it was climbed on bolts. It was renamed Rewind after Mark repeated it on trad gear (after much criticism for bolting a Cornish sea cliff).
Monster Munch still has its bolts, but I am not sure what state they’re in (and re-bolting would be considered unacceptable by many).
Am I correct in thinking the bolts were chopped and it's been rebolted? I certainly seem to remember the bolts in MM looking nice and shiny, but then my memory is rubbish/ prone to delusion. It certainly looked like one of the best sport routes in the UK. Interestingly there are some harder-looking cracks to the right of MM that look like very futuristic Trad lines still to do. I sent some photos to the older one of the wideboyz, but I think he was too scared to even ab down them. Exciting cliff.
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I sent some photos to the older one of the wideboyz,
The Fatdadz? :)
Noticed those RH crack lines in the photo on the Cornish climbers fb post. Look like obvious targets for any hard tradster.
Would be ace if they could just accept both styles on that cliff, like sensible people. Sport routes up the steep faces and hard trad on the steep cracks. It doesn’t seem that revolutionary to me, living in the n.Wales limestone area.
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I actually mentioned this earlier in the thread when the news of Wojciech repeating rewind first came out.
Luke and Pete Dawson have nothing done Monster Munch. Think Luke said that the bolts were in good nick but that you needed to place a couple of wires at the top.
Feel like I am Luke’s UKB PR manager! 😂
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I sent some photos to the older one of the wideboyz,
Would be ace if they could just accept both styles on that cliff, like sensible people. Sport routes up the steep faces and hard trad on the steep cracks. It doesn’t seem that revolutionary to me, living in the n.Wales limestone area.
Exactly :yes:
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Seems like bolts were added to Monster Munch in 2005
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2005/05/bolts_return_to_carn_vellan-17426
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Thats a shame, thought they'd be able to comprehend a crag with coexisting styles.
The CC?? :lol: :lol:
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History here when there was a big move to add sport routes:
http://www.javu.co.uk/Climbing/Articles/CornishBolts/index.shtml
This was 15 years ago.
Certainly worth revisiting
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Yes, it seems like the status quo is daft and out of kilter with the rest of the UK.
I think most of the hard trad climbers in the UK would see the value in some sport routes here. In reality most hard climbers do a bit of both, value both, and have a good idea which routes suit trad and which don't. CV seems to have both and would be a better crag for having both.
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History here when there was a big move to add sport routes:
http://www.javu.co.uk/Climbing/Articles/CornishBolts/index.shtml
This was 15 years ago.
Certainly worth revisiting
Brill. I'll have a gander tonight.
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Somewhat off the topic of these routes, but the vertical LH face at Carn Vellan has a bunch of nice mid-extreme routes that are well worth doing, and would be well worth keeping trad. I suspect there is such a clear distinction between the overhanging face and the rest of it that this would be a quite logical split - the harder trad routes (Ziggurat, Bridge Of Sighs etc) on the right end of the overhang would be more of a concern.
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There was also another attempt to sort this all out. A BMC meeting at the Count House? I can't remember when exactly. A few of us drafted a proposal, roughly along the lines of; rebolting and tidying up the chopped bolts, part of the proposal also included a suggestion that if re bolting wasn't voted for, then the chopped bolts would be dealt with, by the anti bolters, i.e. clean up the mess they made chopping the first time. As with the other recent BMC meetings, numbers were shipped in for the voting, swaying the result. My guess is that if it had been left to locals, then re bolting would have been favoured, there was and probably still is a fair few that would have been keen to climb these routes. As far as I know the bolts are still in the chopped state, the agreement to clean up the crag wasn't met, so there may be a good case to now re visit this argument and re bolt.
I haven't been down to CV for at least five years so I'm not sure what state it is all in now, but my guess is the bolts are still in the chopped state. Not Monster Munch, because as stated previously, that was re bolted (in stealth manner) after the chopping.
As an aside their is a very good boulder problem, called the Gnome, on the massive boulder called the Gnome, albeit a bit of a scary approach, for a timid boulderer type.
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Pasted below agenda (I think) for the meeting Oct 2010.
BRITISH MOUNTAINEERING COUNCIL
A meeting of the South West Area will be held at 19:30 on Saturday 2nd Oct 2010 at the Count House, Bosigran.
Refreshments (curry meal) provided afterwards
If anything to be discussed on this agenda gives rise to a conflict of interest for anyone, please declare it at the start of the meeting.
Agenda
1. Minutes of last meeting – matters arising 2. Feedback from National Council
3. Regional Development and Activities
a) Area endorsement for Lands End Climbing Club fixed protection statement (see below) b) Area endorsement for Penwith and Cornish climbers’ fixed protection statement (see
below)
4. Any other Business Close and refreshments
Next Meeting Dates and Venues November, in Gloucester - date to be confirmed.
Lands End Climbing Club fixed protection statement
On 15th September the Lands End Climbing Club committee met to discuss the forthcoming BMC Area Meeting in Penwith. The clubs policy on fixed protection has now been summarised into the following statement after receiving unanimous support:
In line with agreed BMC policy and overwhelming local and national consensus, the Lands End Climbing Club opposes the placement of fixed protection on Cornish sea cliffs and natural inland outcrops. Furthermore, the club proposes that existing fixed protection is removed and damage to rock repaired where possible.
In light of the recent chipping and drilling debacle at Lands End, the continued presence of bolted routes at Carn Vellan and many historical bolts and drilled pegs currently rotting away, the club would like endorsement for our policy on fixed gear from the BMC Area Meeting.
Penwith and Cornish Climbers’ sport climbing statement
Following discussions and careful consideration of all the issues over the past several years Penwith and Cornish climbers have formed a policy in relation to sport climbing. The policy is driven by certain simple overriding truths, such as:
1. Cornwall as a region should be treated with parity with any other regional climbing area in the UK (especially in so far as sport climbing is concerned).
2. Penwith and Cornish climbers who wish to develop sport climbing in Cornwall should have the same opportunity to develop crags in their local areas just like the rest of the UK.
The policy has the support of Penwith and Cornish climbers; is consistent with agreed BMC policy and is supported on a national basis. The policy is as follows:
• Penwith and Cornish climbers may develop sport climbing at certain specific Cornish venue/s excluding all natural granite cliffs/outcrops;
• The selection of those venue/s will be based upon a coherent, rational and logical basis, relevant factors may include whether-
• there are verified and repeated existing trad lines;
• whether there has been a history of sport climbing;
• the BMC’s approval of the use of the venue in question; and
• its suitability for sport climbing by comparison to other national sport climbing
venues.
The policy is not to be construed as an approval or tacit acceptance of the chipping or manufacture of protection/holds that has taken place recently or historically in connection with trad climbing. This policy for sport climbing, therefore, should not be conflated with any other aspect of climbing.
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Yes, it seems like the status quo is daft and out of kilter with the rest of the UK.
:agree:
As with the other recent BMC meetings, numbers were shipped in for the voting, swaying the result. My guess is that if it had been left to locals, then re bolting would have been favoured, there was and probably still is a fair few that would have been keen to climb these routes.
Excuse my ignorance but where were the anti-bolt voters shipped in from and by who?
Another question for Cornish climbers- to what extent do you think the anti-bolt, anti-sport feeling in Cornwall has been shaped by the actions of “habitual line-stepper” Medwards?
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In the words of the famous mountaineer Beyonce, what goes around comes back around.
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In the words of the famous mountaineer Beyonce, what goes around comes back around.
You watching Glastonbury highlights too?
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Yes, it seems like the status quo is daft and out of kilter with the rest of the UK.
:agree:
As with the other recent BMC meetings, numbers were shipped in for the voting, swaying the result. My guess is that if it had been left to locals, then re bolting would have been favoured, there was and probably still is a fair few that would have been keen to climb these routes.
Excuse my ignorance but where were the anti-bolt voters shipped in from and by who?
Another question for Cornish climbers- to what extent do you think the anti-bolt, anti-sport feeling in Cornwall has been shaped by the actions of “habitual line-stepper” Medwards?
The anti bolters were from up country ;) My argument at the time was that the situation should have been decided by a local consensus. In answer to the second question, the anti Edwards feeling was predominantly non local.
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What does 'up country' mean? As far as I'm aware you need to be a BMC member and that being your local area on contentious or formal BMC area votes. I wish I'd spotted this yesterday as I was climbing with two SW area volunteer officers and could have asked.
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What does 'up country' mean? As far as I'm aware you need to be a BMC member and that being your local area on contentious or formal BMC area votes. I wish I'd spotted this yesterday as I was climbing with two SW area volunteer officers and could have asked.
It’s a relative concept... if you live in Penwith, anywhere ‘up country’ would be past Truro.
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I remember driving down to redruth school for the big vote in the later debate when the very sensible proposals were put forward by Andy, Barney et al.
Couldn't believe how many people were there and a lot from Bristol if i recall. The same bunch who had cut Simon Youngs bolts on the north Cornish coast with in days of the first ascent and the same guys who got lured to Pentire a few years ago when someone trolled them by saying they had put a bolt in the crux of Eroica at Pentire. You shouldn't laugh.. They were there within hours shame the bolt wasn't.
Obviously different ends of the spectrum but shows how virulently anti bolts that group were at the time/still are?
You don't have to be a member to attend do you? I've been to meetings without being a member?
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What does 'up country' mean? As far as I'm aware you need to be a BMC member and that being your local area on contentious or formal BMC area votes. I wish I'd spotted this yesterday as I was climbing with two SW area volunteer officers and could have asked.
It’s a relative concept... if you live in Penwith, anywhere ‘up country’ would be past Truro.
Growing up in St Tudy (Wadebridge/Bodmin), I was classed as “almost living in Devon” and “Up country”...
I remember the battles in the late ‘80s, before went into the Navy in ‘89. I always thought the “old” anti-everything tossers that dominated the local scene (not in numbers, just in volume of shouting) would die out. By the time I sold my house in Wadebridge in ‘97 and moved to France/Turkey, it was still a thing. I didn’t miss it, or the climbing, and just went and swung on Euro bolts, in the sun. The climbing scene, then, in the Ardeche was just so much more pleasant. Plenty of trad up on the Granite, sat alongside bolted faces, aside from the Sport in the gorges. Living there, as opposed to just holidaying as I had before, I really came to appreciate how Nimby-ish, petty and committee choked, my climbing life in the UK had been.
When I returned to Europe in 2008 and started climbing again, I didn’t actually involve myself in the “scene”, only stumbling across UKB by accident when looking for beta on some problems near Barcelona. That lead to me checking out, and running away from, UKC; which I still refuse to use without holding my nose.
I am sooooo glad to see my fellow Cornishmen have progressed almost into the 21st century, in the 20 years since it began...
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To be fair i dont think there were actually that many Cornishmen who were anti the bolts although as you say they certainly were the loudest!
It was the large group that came from out of the county that ensure the sensible proposals didn't get passed.
Definitely needs looking at again
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Bristol obviously has a concentrated climbing community and the city is part of the SW area as far as the BMC meeting goes and Bristol climbers are often activists in Cornwall.
That said I would be livid if I lived in deepest Cornwall and was denied the opportunity to develop hard sport routes on rock that was otherwise undeveloped by Bristol based climbers who have Cheddar and Brean available on their doorstep for hard sport.
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Bristol obviously has a concentrated climbing community and the city is part of the SW area as far as the BMC meeting goes and Bristol climbers are often activists in Cornwall.
That said I would be livid if I lived in deepest Cornwall and was denied the opportunity to develop hard sport routes on rock that was otherwise undeveloped by Bristol based climbers who have Cheddar and Brean available on their doorstep for hard sport.
Along with the holiday home elected MPs, maybe it’s time for Meythrin prp Trelawny...
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It's worth baring in mind how rare faces like this one are. The cracklines right of monster munch are wildly futuristic in a way that very few other places in the UK are. Obviously at the moment pushing the boundaries of Trad is unpopular, but it's possible to imagine a time once the current training/Olympics focus has peaked, where people might start looking for the next level of Trad climbing. Cliffs like CV are one of the few places where the combination of hard climbing, boldness, but still some gear may be found. Many of the most compact cliffs (and therefore hard/ bold) have already been bolted, so I'd be reticent to grid bolt the place. I don't see anything wrong with a mix - I'm well psyched for a go at mm, but I think the lines on the right should be left. They'd be some of the best in the world. Just think how impossible the idea of doing the meltdown on trad would have been in the 90s and how now it looks like it could well be possible. Once you bolt something, that's it for ever.
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Along with the holiday home elected MPs, maybe it’s time for Meythrin prp Trelawny...
“And shall the bolting live
Or shall the bolting die
Here’s twenty thousand Cornishmen that would know the reason why”
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Yes Shark!
Franco - once you bolt something it isn't 'forever'. Look at Carn Vellan - Rewind! Also other examples around the country - Lundy, Pembroke, N.Wales. Bolting and de-bolting not ideal, obviously.
If those steep cracks on the right of CV are protectable and make sense as trad then someone will eventually climb them on trad. Could be first E10/11s in the southwest.
Offwidth - maybe, maybe not. I certainly think it should be local except maybe in extremely exceptional cases that justify everyone to having their say - I find it hard to think of one TBH because there are enough climbers spread around the country these days to have local consensus generally reflect national consensus. It didn't stop the old chair of the Peak area BMC committee making the case for having his say in a North Wales local BMC vote on fixed gear at the top of Rhoscolyn (which the local consensus has accepted for about 15 years) - I think he justified having his vote heard by reason of Rhosclyn being 'of national importance'. (If Rhoscolyn is of national importance, then just about any half-decent trad cliff could be classed nationally important) - I think what he really meant is that Rhoscolyn is nationally important to him. I have views on High Tor that I'm sure many locals wouldn't agree with, I think it's a nationally important cliff but I highly doubt many Peak-based climbers would appreciate me having any influence there. He who shouts loudest and deems themselves important..
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At the end of the day, votes in meetings don't mean much compared to boots on the ground as there's a big difference between talk and action. These meetings primarily act as a means of hearing different points of view and building a consensus, and will always have questions raised when the result is one you personally disagree with.
Should a local view take precedence, or should it be based on how often you've climbed at a crag? What if you're Cornish but have never climbed at CV and never will? Does your opinion count more than a visitor who would climb there often if some (not all) routes were bolted, perhaps? The point about an ex Peak chair might be unfair if it's who I think it is, who was a N.Wales resident for at least a decade. Are they no longer allowed a stake in the area once they move away? No easy answers I suppose...
As an aside, the messy chopped bolts at CV were scheduled for tidying up by some locals. I loaned an angle grinder and ab rope for the task, which disappeared into the Cornish aether without the job being done. All rather tedious and a rather hefty boost to my innate cynicism of localism!
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At the end of the day, votes in meetings don't mean much compared to boots on the ground as there's a big difference between talk and action. These meetings primarily act as a means of hearing different points of view and building a consensus, and will always have questions raised when the result is one you personally disagree with.
Should a local view take precedence, or should it be based on how often you've climbed at a crag? What if you're Cornish but have never climbed at CV and never will? Does your opinion count more than a visitor who would climb there often if some (not all) routes were bolted, perhaps? The point about an ex Peak chair might be unfair if it's who I think it is, who was a N.Wales resident for at least a decade. Are they no longer allowed a stake in the area once they move away? No easy answers I suppose...
As an aside, the messy chopped bolts at CV were scheduled for tidying up by some locals. I loaned an angle grinder and ab rope for the task, which disappeared into the Cornish aether without the job being done. All rather tedious and a rather hefty boost to my innate cynicism of localism!
Do you mind me asking when you lent the angle grinder, i.e. which of the meetings was it after?
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It'll be a while ago Andy, at least 5 years but maybe a bit longer? The loan was arranged through Shane after he moved back down and I think he felt pretty let down by it all. Not his fault and water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.
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That would have been after the meeting at the Counthouse then I reckon, more than five years ago definitely. I wasn't asking to lay on the blame, just curious. It was that particular meeting and BMC motion that I invested a bit more time and emotion in, so I was curious if the anti bolters, did what they said they would, second time of promising I think. It seems they didn't.
So if the issue comes up again, the argument would now swing more favourably to a minimal and sensitive rebolting of Monster Munch and maybe leave the rest, just in case as Franco suggested, hard trad has a renaissance.
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I have watched this debate come and go after the last 20 years and it is definitely not straight forward. With bad blood both sides, however since Wojciech has now repeated Rewind and it must be said in much better style than the first ascent (placing all gear on lead). Perhaps a good time to look at this again, however it will probably end as most of these debates with lots of noise and little action.
The current state of Monster munch is that it is a mess, three lines of chopped and rotting bolts, which certainly does not shower either side in roses and perhaps also highlights the one of the key issues, the climbing scene down here is tiny, especially with people with the ability and resources to sort this properly either way. I have text Wojciech to get his feelings,
Question 1? What are your thoughts on bolting CV
Answer simple answer is that there is no one capable of installing the bolts adequately and safely at the moment, bolts need to be titanium glue in, anyone who thinks steel bolts are ok in that environment, need to research the subject... I would not trust a single bolt on that crag even if only a year old!! Titanium bolts around £11 each, anchor £60 plus glue >£300 per route. Apart from initial excitement CV ain't Ansteys its F*#king wet most of the time, locals not keen on people climbing there and potential bird patrol will put a restrictions on in the best time to climb there, there is however potential for routes in the 8c & 9a range
Question 2? Are there other trad lines?
Answer; Yes probably one big trad line, but also a question of how bolting might affect existing trad routes like Zigurat for example.
To me if people (I would be one) want sport routes at CV, then would need MM cleaned up as first prerequisite, then a policy that any sport route have to be Ti bolted. But currently local scene lacks capability and financial resource to make that happen, certainly no bolt fund. The old question of bolt creep, I think is no longer valid, which was basically saying Cornish climber cannot be trusted to employ both trad and sport philosophies.
But long and short, this is a remote very conditions dependant crag, who is going to put in the effort in? I will certainly take my hat off to them and they will deserve the reward of the UK's hardest trad and potentially sport lines!
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JS,
Couple of things. The N.Wales Limestone guidebook has upwards of £13,000 cash in the bank. (That’s what happens when nobody takes a wage from writing guidebooks). That’s after we’ve already donated a few thousand to the N.Wales bolt fund. I’d personally be happy to donate the full cost of bolting whatever a local consensus decided to bolt at CV. My co-author would need to agree.
You don’t need to use the titanium bolts, bit of a myth, I think in part propagated by the owner of the company that makes them. You do need highly corrosion resistant steel though - duplex 1.4462 steel made by bolt products in Germany . Same as we used to re-equip LPT, The Diamond and other tidal sport cliffs.
The duplex 1.4462 bolts are cheaper than the titanium bolts: 9 euro, 10 euro for a belay bolt.
Lastly, I’d also happily re-bolt Monster Munch by myself. And then clean all the old shit off. I have the know-how, and the experience from having done exactly the same on loads of steep tidal sport cliffs in Wales and Ireland. It’s just the sort of challenge I enjoy.
I could tidily re-bolt Monster Munch and clean the old bolts in a long weekend by myself.
So you have a public offer of all the money and the labour to do the job, from someone experienced in doing the same thing elsewhere. Just up to Cornwall’s climbers to decide if there’s an appetite for it to be done.
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Two strong posts in a row there ^^^
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That's a pretty heroic offer from Pete, duly wadded.
Just to follow up what Pete's said, at this point in time there have been no recorded instances of stress corrosion cracking reported in UK bolts. That's what both Titanium and the duplex steels like 1.4462 are intended to protect against. There are a large number of AISI 316 anchors in place around the UK and to date we have not had serious corrosion issues with them when they are made correctly like the Bolt Products models.
My test beds at UPT and LPT in fact suggest so far that corrosion is likely to be more intense away from the splash zone and worse higher up where heavily salt laden air is flowing but any salt deposition doesn't get washed off. It is therefore very encouraging that the AISI 316 DMM Ecobolts on UPT are holding up well despite getting on for 25+ years old. Using 1.4462 is a good option if you want to be extra cautious though.
Wrt Titanium, the bolts are nice but the main issue I have with the lower offs is that as the alloy used is so soft, it requires a monstrously sized machined ring to give it a reasonable wear lifespan. Rather ugly and quite expensive. When I get off furlough and get to finally publish my bolting manual for the BMC, the advice will be that 316 is OK for the UK, on the proviso that if SCC rears it's ugly head, some rebolting may be required. Given the 1000's of 316 anchors in Portland and other places, I'd be very shocked if it suddenly became a huge issue though.
Anyway, Pete knows what he's doing, I'd snatch his hand off with that offer if it was down to me.
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The consensus from people posting here seems to be in favour, so I am going to give the other point of view as a local climber who, on balance, would be against further bolting at CV.
I live 40 minutes from CV. I am not a rabid anti-bolter. I enjoy sport climbing and sometimes wish there was stuff nearer than Cheesewring and Ansteys.
I can also see the argument that some of the lines at CV, especially Monster Munch, might be better as sport climbs.
However, Woj’s recent ascent shows Rewind goes on trad, with all gear placed on lead. It is worth bearing in mind that this was originally bolted, and only after much furore was it reclimbed on gear. Even then lots of people said that was only possible because Mark had had the benefit of working it on bolts previously, and that once de-bolted this would no longer be possible. Woj has since dispelled that myth - albeit having watched him ab in to place gear to keep in contact with the rock, it does look like a pain in the ass.
My point though is that there might be the possibility of more hard trad here in the future. This has been suggested by both Woj and Franco. I think we should be slow to write-off the possibility that future generations will have the talent and vision to climb other lines on gear. Down the decades the assumption that the peak of standards had almost been reached has repeatedly been proved wrong.
By contrast, I question how good a sport crag it would really make. Conditions are fickle. The approach is a scramble down a cliff path susceptible to erosion - does it really need the extra traffic bolts would undoubtedly bring?
Most importantly though, I think it worth preserving the strong trad ethic of the area and keeping the Cornish sea cliffs bolt free. This is a wild and beautiful coastline, with some of the best trad climbing in the country. It is accepted that areas like Gogarth and Pembroke should be bolt free - why not Cornwall?
People scoff at the thin end of the wedge argument, but to me it is a huge concern. If 8b climbers deserve to have sports routes local to them, why not 7b and 6b climbers?
If it is OK to bolt CV, then why not other Cornish sea cliffs? You cannot draw a distinction on rock type - there are vast numbers of killas and greenstone crags that are established trad venues and should remain as such. What about the other non-granite crags, or sectors of crags, that do not yet have established routes on them? Are they fair game too, just because they are thought too hard or bold by today’s standards? I can think of at least one brilliant looking, gently overhanging wall at Carn Gowla that would go if it was bolted - are we to accept that it is fair game to get the Hilton out at one of Cornwall’s gnarliest trad crags?
Personally I would rather lose the possibility of a handful of sport routes at CV to maintain a simple, clear policy that the Cornish sea cliffs should be bolt free. This is a beautiful, unique area, where people come for great adventures, and I would like to keep it that way.
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That's a pretty heroic offer from Pete, duly wadded.
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It certainly is!
If there was an option to chip in towards the costs I’m sure I wouldn’t be the only one happy to contribute. I dont have an enormously strong opinion on the routes themselves - it’s too far to make for a realistic project even if I were capable (MM is 8b+, right?) - but I remember how much of a mess the old bolts looked from the one time I’ve wandered down there 15 years or so back and if having one line of decent bolts is the trigger that’s needed for someone to actually go and clean up some of the mess (there’s a lot more lines of chopped rust than just MM, aren’t there?) then for me that feels a better end result than the current situation.
Kingholmesy - I thought last time the proposal was limited to the roof section at CV - couldn’t you just do the same again in terms of scope? Limited exemptions to bolt free areas I think can work - I’m not sure that allowing Fuel my Fire to exist outside the regular Dorset bolt agreement areas has led to subsequent creep into the bolt free areas...
As an extra thought - If area meetings continue remotely or add a remote option in future (which I think generally would be a good thing) it may be harder to get a truly “local” consensus on things because the geographical hassle of attendance disappears. Basically, the SW area is too large!
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@AJM - I think previous proposals have hinted at the possibility of subsequent bolting elsewhere. See details here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/guest_editorial_carn_vellan_bolts-3563.
Even if the current proposal were limited solely to the roof section at CV, the concerns I have outlined above would remain about the precedent it would set.
I don’t know Dorset well, but don’t think it is a good example of suggesting that “bolt creep” isn’t a problem.
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@AJM - I think previous proposals have hinted at the possibility of subsequent bolting elsewhere. See details here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/guest_editorial_carn_vellan_bolts-3563.
Even if the current proposal were limited solely to the roof section at CV, the concerns I have outlined above would remain about the precedent it would set.
I don’t know Dorset well, but don’t think it is a good example of suggesting that “bolt creep” isn’t a problem.
Ah, my mistake. I had in my head from somewhere that the proposal had been specifically around the roof section at CV.
In the early days, certainly, the Dorset bolting isn’t a good example (was anywhere?) but I’m not sure that it’s fair to judge the way the current agreement works by events which largely happened 25 years ago!
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@AJM - I think previous proposals have hinted at the possibility of subsequent bolting elsewhere. See details here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/guest_editorial_carn_vellan_bolts-3563.
Even if the current proposal were limited solely to the roof section at CV, the concerns I have outlined above would remain about the precedent it would set.
I don’t know Dorset well, but don’t think it is a good example of suggesting that “bolt creep” isn’t a problem.
It is probably this sentence that suggests this concern... "put in a process that will allow a mechanism for the development of sport climbing at additional crags in the future" and that they "may develop sport climbing at certain specific Cornish venue/s excluding all natural granite cliffs/outcrops".
This proposal was drafted by Dan Dyson and myself and a few others I guess agreed roughly with it (it got presented at the meeting). At the time I thought it a little provocative, I suspect we knew the proposal would be voted down and simply wanted to test or outline an argument. I can't speak for Dan, but I felt that as a group of climbers who wanted to climb on bolts sometimes, it seemed fair enough that we didn't need to drive several hours to climb. CV had been bolted, then chopped, two BMC meetings later and the bolts had still not been cleaned up. We proposed to clean the crag and reinstate some of the lines, specifically MM on which a few of us had already been on in it's second bolted phase.
I was increasingly feeling pissed off that what should happen at this cliff was being dictated by those that lived miles away and probably had never even visited (not all people obv). I was also fed up with arguments along the lines of, Cornwall is unique/adventure this/experience that etc. Some people live and work there, climb there too all year round. Preserving the arguably 'dubious' authenticity of the adventure playground for holidaying climbers, seems, frankly a poor argument.
I think Petes offer is a good one, it's also tangible and real.
I live in France now, far removed from the issue, but it still seems to get my back up ;)
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Thanks Andy, that’s useful context. Although I grew up in Cornwall, I was living in Manchester in 2011 so didn’t take place in the debate last time round.
The question of who should decide this is a difficult one. It seems natural to suggest that the views of local climbers should carry the greatest weight - but how “local” do you have to be? Isn’t it legitimate that others should take an interest?
Also, while I understand your frustration, I’m not sure it’s fair to characterise this as wanting to preserve Cornwall for holidaymakers. I live, work and climb here all year round, and have genuine concerns about maintaining Cornish sea cliffs free of bolts.
At the end of the day, I see the arguments both way, and if the consensus is to rebolt I won’t be down there chopping them.
But my vote would be against. I come back to the argument of once CV, where next? Is it really plausible to have an area meeting to decide the issue each time a new crag / sector / route is proposed for bolting? Once it is established that bolting is OK on Cornish sea cliffs, then over time won’t individuals decide that it is justified on routes elsewhere in the county? Is it not simpler (in my view better) to maintain a clear policy of no bolts on Cornish sea cliffs?
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Thanks Andy, that’s useful context. Although I grew up in Cornwall, I was living in Manchester in 2011 so didn’t take place in the debate last time round.
The question of who should decide this is a difficult one. It seems natural to suggest that the views of local climbers should carry the greatest weight - but how “local” do you have to be? Isn’t it legitimate that others should take an interest?
Also, while I understand your frustration, I’m not sure it’s fair to characterise this as wanting to preserve Cornwall for holidaymakers. I live, work and climb here all year round, and have genuine concerns about maintaining Cornish sea cliffs free of bolts.
At the end of the day, I see the arguments both way, and if the consensus is to rebolt I won’t be down there chopping them.
But my vote would be against. I come back to the argument of once CV, where next? Is it really plausible to have an area meeting to decide the issue each time a new crag / sector / route is proposed for bolting? Once it is established that bolting is OK on Cornish sea cliffs, then over time won’t individuals decide that it is justified on routes elsewhere in the county? Is it not simpler (in my view better) to maintain a clear policy of no bolts on Cornish sea cliffs?
The thing is that no one ever has proposed bolting Cornish sea cliffs. CV has been the subject of proposed retro bolting, that's all. The proposal Dan put forward, was to test out the idea that climbers who wanted to bolt in Cornwall would be treated by the BMC in a similar manner to other comparable areas, i.e. Dorset, N Wales. It seemed this was not the case and Cornwall was to be an exception, my interest is in why?
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For the same reason as Gogarth and Pembroke - because viewed overall they are better kept as trad climbing areas.
Let’s face it - although there might be the odd line that looked at in isolation would be better (or only possible) if bolted, Cornwall is never going to be a great sports venue. By contrast it is an amazing trad climbing area, with sea cliff adventure routes to rival those anywhere in the country.
I think it is worth losing a couple of sports routes to maintain this. This is accepted elsewhere. For example, even though I suspect that there might be the odd line at Pembroke that would be better or only possible if bolted (stuff on the Big Issue wall??), it has been decided to preserve it as a trad climbing area.
I suppose in part it maybe comes down to a question of whether or not people find this a convincing argument.
Anyway, I need to take the kids out now and am going climbing later, so won’t be checking posts for a while!
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For the same reason as Gogarth and Pembroke - because viewed overall they are better kept as trad climbing areas.
Let’s face it - although there might be the odd line that looked at in isolation would be better (or only possible) if bolted, Cornwall is never going to be a great sports venue. By contrast it is an amazing trad climbing area, with sea cliff adventure routes to rival those anywhere in the country.
I think it is worth losing a couple of sports routes to maintain this. This is accepted elsewhere. For example, even though I suspect that there might be the odd line at Pembroke that would be better or only possible if bolted (stuff on the Big Issue wall??), it has been decided to preserve it as a trad climbing area.
I suppose in part it maybe comes down to a question of whether or not people find this a convincing argument.
Anyway, I need to take the kids out now and am going climbing later, so won’t be checking posts for a while!
Yes but Gogarth is a cliff and Pembroke is what? a cliff or Pembrokeshire? What I mean is that Cornwall is a big county. Gwynedd has sport climbing and trad, co existing. This is what I imagine for Cornwall.
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The use of Gogarth as an example is illustrative of tolerance of two strands of climbing ethics co-existing, in the cliff environment that best suits each. 'Gogarth' has a bolted crag, with two excellent sport routes from the 80s - a 7b and 8a - that were recently re-bolted (plus room for 2 more newies I'm keen to look at). Their existence in no way threaten the placement of bolts on the rest of 'Gogarth'. Yes it's a quarried face, but it's certainly 'Gogarth' - you walk right past it to do Dream of White Horses!
The biggest risk for bolts at Gogarth is the once every-few-years incidence of people despairing at the mess of corroding fixed steel ab anchors at Castel Helen - could learn from Cornwall, it needs the Lower Sharpnose abseil anchor treatment!
(BTW I don't want to appear like I think I should have any influence on Cornwall ethics. I'm just pointing out facts. Cornwall's ethics i.m.o. are up to Cornwall's climbers, same as N.Wales. Peak, etc.)
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Ok I just re edited my last post to make it a bit clearer. Pete you beat me to it and with more detail.
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My guide suggests there's a partially bolted quarry in Pembroke too (Tenby south beach quarry) and I have to confess I thought there were some bolted quarries near North Pembroke too, but I don't have the definitive guide for there and therefore could very possibly be wrong. There's also a couple of hundred sport routes right on the Carmarthenshire/Pembrokeshire border near St Clears, judging by the rock fax SW sport climbs map.
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For the same reason as Gogarth and Pembroke - because viewed overall they are better kept as trad climbing areas...
I don't think you are comparing like for like here. While Gogarth may well be a trad climbing area, a quick look at the UKC crags database shows that there is sport climbing on Ynys Mon at Fedw Fawr (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/fedw_fawr-9896#overview). At Pembroke also, sport climbing can be found at Porthgain (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/porthgain_area-12227#maps) - and yet the reputation of Pembroke as a traditional sea-cliff climbing area is undiminished.
Worth noting that the drive from Pembroke to the Gower is perhaps not dissimilar to that from Penwith to the Roseland - Telpyn Point (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/telpyn_point-8705#overview) and Morfa Bychan (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/morfa_bychan-10267#overview) are passed on the way. Cornwall is the 12th largest 'English county' by area with a coastline of over 400 miles and a resident population of more than 500,000 - there is room for all forms of climbing to co-exist here.
The overzealous insistence that a blanket policy must be strictly adhered to is questionable in my view. And, as earlier posters have pointed out, the arguments for its maintenance without exception basically boil down to saying Cornish climbers can't be trusted and we must give the tourists what they expect. Such arguments are disparaging and disrespectful. I reject them and - this is a general comment not aimed at kingholmesy - I would ask those pushing these notions to consider them carefully.
(P.S. Pete and AJM posted while I was writing this, so forgive me for repeating what's already been said.)
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As a Cornishman-ish, I’m not going to worry until they try to bolt Bishop’s Rib.
(Caveat: I was born in Paignton, to a father from Buckfastleigh (Devon) and a mother from St Tudy (Cornwall) , I didn’t move to St Tudy until I was 5 (1975) and sold my house there in 1997. Point being, how Cornish would you have to be, to have a say? Born there and never left? Several generations of such? Or surely it should simply be held to the same standards as the rest of the UK? Aka, what Jooser said).
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My guide suggests there's a partially bolted quarry in Pembroke too (Tenby south beach quarry) and I have to confess I thought there were some bolted quarries near North Pembroke too, but I don't have the definitive guide for there and therefore could very possibly be wrong. There's also a couple of hundred sport routes right on the Carmarthenshire/Pembrokeshire border near St Clears, judging by the rock fax SW sport climbs map.
R Thomas told me about somewhere round those parts, but wasn't sure.
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Local here climbed 30 yrs 30 mins from CV went to both recentish bolt debates and voted against bolting at CV, reasons being:
1. Nothing against bolting at all but rightly or wrongly I perceived it as an elitist argument - climbers climbing at Grade x + somehow 'deserve' to have bolted climbs in Cornwall. I too would love to be able to do some sports routes without driving for miles but like watching a decent footy match (sorry Truro City) / band etc that is a compromise one makes when choosing to live in Cornwall.
2. The routes in question were cracks and had lots of natural gear so we weren't looking at a Malham type scenario.
3. Would I trust locals to keep to this agreement ? If the locals included Medwards then quite frankly no. Great climbers but a history of wedge enlarging even without a Cummins like amber light.
As I understand it the current bolt agreement is very clear - no fixed gear on natural cliffs in Cornwall. That means quarries such as Cheesewring etc could be grid bolted if a desire was there. I am not sure that making exceptions for a couple of named sectors such as CV roof would worth sacrificing this clarity for.
Only my opinion and if the roof at CV did get bolted would I go beyond internet tutting? Probably not.
Cheers - Chris H
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The use of Gogarth as an example is illustrative of tolerance of two strands of climbing ethics co-existing, in the cliff environment that best suits each. 'Gogarth' has a bolted crag, with two excellent sport routes from the 80s - a 7b and 8a - that were recently re-bolted (plus room for 2 more newies I'm keen to look at). Their existence in no way threaten the placement of bolts on the rest of 'Gogarth'. Yes it's a quarried face, but it's certainly 'Gogarth' - you walk right past it to do Dream of White Horses!
Whilst I have no doubt as to the sincerity of Pete's offer to sort out MM at CV, nor to his competence to do a proper job, this statement cannot go unchallenged!
It's only my opinion, but anyone arguing that the overhanging face in Breakwater Quarry is somehow 'certainly Gogarth' (by which I assume you mean 'proper Gogarth') is way off the mark. I have no issue whatsoever with those BQ bolted routes, and I was really pleased that they got re-equipped recently - not least because I still have 'tax' on one of them, acquired about 25 years ago!
But the day people start whacking bolts in what I consider 'proper Gogarth' would be a dark day indeed.
For what it's worth, whilst I'm certainly not a Cornwall local (though I have done trad routes at CV within the last 12 months), I'm with kingholmesy on this one.
Neil
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Good discussion chaps :yes:
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"no fixed gear on natural cliffs in Cornwall."
That was what was agreed at the meetings and lasted about 5 minutes! James pearson had made a huge statement taking out all the fixed gear at dyers only for Dave Birkett to come along and place some pegs. Nobody had a problem with it and everyone said how wonderful it was. If that's not elitest i don't know what is. No fixed gear unless its a big name and a big grade.
Cornwall is a big place and the climbers should and can be trusted. Theres been a bolted route on the culm for well over 10 years its not caused a sudden out break in bolting. We all know about the bolts placed by the Edwards it didn't mean the rest of the cornish climbing community suddenly thought brilliant lets go and bolt bosi. I dont understand why it is seen as different to everywhere else?
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The overzealous insistence that a blanket policy must be strictly adhered to is questionable in my view. ... the arguments for its maintenance without exception basically boil down to saying Cornish climbers can't be trusted and we must give the tourists what they expect.
There are some fair arguments made in this thread by those in favour of bolting CV, but this isn’t one of them.
I have friends that are pro bolting CV, I respect them, and there is no suggestion that I think they can’t be “trusted”. On the other side of the debate, I personally am against bolting and it has nothing to do with “giving tourists what they want”.
In my mind, it boils down to two key questions, neither of which is clear cut:
1. Looked at solely in isolation, would the roof at CV make for better climbing if bolted?
Those in favour will point at routes like Monster Munch and say yes. They might also rely on the paucity of other nearby sports venues. Those against will point at Rewind and the possibility of futuristic hard trad lines and say no. If against you might rely also on the fact that this is a fragile coastal environment and question whether it would suffer from extra traffic.
The second question only arises if you think that, looked at solely in isolation, CV would be better with some or all of the lines bolted.
2. Do you think that it is more important to maintain a clear policy of no bolts on Cornish sea cliffs?
Those in favour of bolting CV will say that trad and sport can co-exist and say that there is no need to be so simplistic.
Those against will argue that the thin end of the wedge is a valid concern, and that it is not worth risking the richness of Cornish trad climbing.
On both questions there are good arguments both ways, but ultimately I know which side I come down on.
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Whilst I have no doubt as to the sincerity of Pete's offer to sort out MM at CV, nor to his competence to do a proper job, this statement cannot go unchallenged!
It's only my opinion, but anyone arguing that the overhanging face in Breakwater Quarry is somehow 'certainly Gogarth' (by which I assume you mean 'proper Gogarth') is way off the mark. I have no issue whatsoever with those BQ bolted routes, and I was really pleased that they got re-equipped recently - not least because I still have 'tax' on one of them, acquired about 25 years ago!
But the day people start whacking bolts in what I consider 'proper Gogarth' would be a dark day indeed.
I think my comment about Breakwater Quarry being 'Gogarth' needs to be read in the context of me replying to Kingholmsey's reply below, he was replying to Andy W, who asked:
..if Cornwall would be treated by the BMC in a similar manner to other comparable areas, i.e. Dorset, N Wales. It seemed this was not the case and Cornwall was to be an exception, my interest is in why?
To which Kingholmsey replied:
For the same reason as Gogarth and Pembroke - because viewed overall they are better kept as trad climbing areas.
Let’s face it - although there might be the odd line that looked at in isolation would be better (or only possible) if bolted, Cornwall is never going to be a great sports venue. By contrast it is an amazing trad climbing area, with sea cliff adventure routes to rival those anywhere in the country.
Like 99.9% of climbers I completely agree that Gogarth and Pembroke - and Cornwall - ARE better kept as trad climbing areas. There isn't any suggestion or evidence to the contrary from any serious climber. So using the point that 'great trad areas (such as Gogarth or Pembroke) are better remaining as trad', as a justification for not equipping a TINY number of sport routes in a WHOLE COUNTY, in 2020, seems to me to be very dubious logic.
And if your evidence for 'great trad-climbing areas that must not be bolted' is to use Gogarth or Pembroke as your examples, then both those areas DO have sport crags within walking distance (for Gogarth) or close driving distance (for Pembroke). And there are loads of sport crags within the same county! In the context of the point you're trying to make about Carn Vellan affecting trad climbing in Cornwall as a whole, breakwater quarry at Gogarth is like having a sport crag in full view on the approach path to Bosigran! Without any sport climbing encroaching on Bosigran! It's making the point FOR bolts not being a threat, counter to the point you're intending to make.
Being great trad climbing areas, and having a few good sport routes, are not mutually exclusive ideas. As evidenced in just about every other significant climbing region in the UK.
Perhaps it's based on fears of what happened a long time ago. I completely accept that plenty of shoddy ethical choices around bolts were made through the 70s, 80s and 90s - when questions regarding sport and trad ethics were increasingly having to be examined due to progress of bolting/drill technology and the evolution of climbing styles.
Neil, I agree BQ isn't 'proper Gogarth'. We all know that it isn't what you go to 'Gogarth' to experience. But it IS located at Gogarth - it's on the approach path 5 minutes walk away from North Stack! If that isn't at Gogarth then where is it? I understand why Kingholmsey used Gogarth has an example of the idea of a 'great trad area which shouldn't be bolted' - it 99.9% is exactly like he (and everyone) labels it. Which suggests Carn Vellan could be to 'Cornish trad', what BQ (or any of the 4 other sport cliffs on Anglesy..) is to 'Gogarth'. Once you start to examine the details of these places the devil is there with bolted routes in all sorts of very traddy places, it doesn't follow that they threaten the ethic of the area. I agree it would be a dark day if bolt-runners appeared on 'proper Gogarth' but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.
And yes Gogarth, Pembroke, Lundy and loads of other places had their controversies in the past, but time moves on - The Cad was bolted in the 70s, Parliament House Cave (an aid route) in the 2010s. Both were quickly deemed unacceptable soon after. Same for Pembroke - Gibson/Oxley(?) routes bolted in the 80s/90s, soon deemed unacceptable and stripped. Cornwall went through it's 'ethical moment' roughly around the same time period as Pembroke, North Wales and other places, with the Edward's pushing the line just as mavericks had pushed the line elsewhere.
Looks to me that the climbing scene has transitioned through the formative years of working out appropriate bolting ethics on a small island comprised predominately of great trad climbing. Nearly everywhere that good trad exists, a consensus on what is and isn't generally appropriate has been reached which looks remarkably similar nationwide.
Finally if Cornwall's great sea-cliff trad climbing was going to be bolted away by some maverick, then I'd argue this trend would be happening elsewhere in the country. It isn't. Shite quarries get bolted (and often climb really well!). Great trad areas don't. Cornwall not being inhabited by some other species of hominid different to the rest of UK climbers (no comment..) suggests it won't happen there either.
Wow feels like a lot of words for somewhere a long way away from me! I'm just arguing the general principle really - still feel totally detached about whatever happens.
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Really interesting debate this.
I’m originally from Devon though wouldn’t call myself a local in any way having not lived in the south west for 8 years or more.
I can see why some people don’t want any bolts; Cornwall (much as though it pains me to say as a Devonian) has some fantastic trad climbing and in general a rugged and beautiful coastal environment. Do we want to see the popularity that bolts will bring? People screaming obscenities as they fall off on links as we see at the tor? Probably not.
However, is that what is being proposed here? I’m not certain it is anymore and yeah they are Cornish but surely even they can be trusted to only rebolt the unprotectable faces at CV :P
I have no skin in the CV game as I don’t climb hard enough to do either the trad or the sport routes and I live a long way away now. But to my mind it seems obvious and viable to bolt/rebolt the unprotectable lines and leave the traditionallly protectable ones. Maybe have a clause whereby anything that looks like it might be protected even if poorly is left alone? (I know Luke said he put a few wires in MM at the top so maybe this clause would scupper the whole thing)
I guess my reasoning behind this is it looks like an amazing crag and as new rock dries up, it may become increasingly important to maximise what we have. It would seem a shame now that in most/all other areas in the U.K. we have managed to come to an understanding as to what is acceptable to bolt and what’s not. It’s pretty rare to find bolts on traditionally protectable rock.
Additionally to the examples of how these two things can sit side by side are; Scotland- they have bolted mountain rock on tunnel wall and yet just like Cornwall the Scottish highlands are undoubtedly a bastion of adventure climbing.
Pete’s offer is a good one! I was wondering if I would be able to do a good job of the rebolt as it sounds like fantastic challenge.