UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: krymson on March 11, 2015, 02:26:26 am
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Been getting into a strength phase -- basically bouldering a lot after mostly climbing for a while and been a bit frustrated at slow progress on very physical problems. I can hang on forever off a crimp or sloper but am falling on the big moves, the gastons, on the lockoffs. The tendons and pulleys are strong but the muscles are weak and they are taking forever to grow.
I obviously need to tune my workouts better but thinking back to when i did weight training i remember diet made a big difference. Id think that the stuff you eat in a low volume high intensity strength phase should probably be quite different from the higher volume lower intensity endurance or performance phases, no?
I'm currently eating a fairly balanced diet with some protein but more carbs and veggies - fine for climbing loads but i wonder if its holding me back in terms of strength. Im thinking i might try upping the protein and fat intake while decreasing carbs for the next few weeks.
In addition i was thinking of doing more weights and rings during this period - deadlifting, maybe even a few squats, to encourage general muscle growth. After this period I'd go back to maintenance work.
Was wondering if anyone has experimented with adjusting their diet with these periodized programs and how it went? Any weight lifter will tell you diet is as important as exercise for muscle growth. If you're periodizing your training, it doesnt make sense to me that your diet should stay the same.
When i look around the boulder gym i notice quite a few of the strong boulderers have some meat on their bones, whereas strong route climbers seem almost universally lanky. A few kg put on during a strength phase and the excess cut during subsequent phases doesnt seem like it would hurt things.
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There's certainly a cut-off point where having too low mass (not enough strength/muscle to do big moves, or reserves to recover between routes/sets) and having too much mass (too much useless muscle, e.g. in legs, or too much bodyfat) kick in and have an affect on your climbing. I would guess it correlates highly with finger strength. I certainly remember first experimenting with diet when training and I felt totally crap eat massive meals when I was doing 3 or 4 sessions a week of really intense training, though I've swung around to trying to go for quality (and deciding my body actually needed some nutritious food instead of a big plate of carbs!) most of the cycle and being a bit more gentle with dietary changes.
What kind of length of periodisation are you talking about? I break up the year into 3 4-month blocks which means I can eat a relatively healthy diet most of the time and start increasing the veg/salad intake for the last 6 weeks to try and get a bit lighter for my peak. Off of the top of my head I think the Andersons talk about diet & periodization a little in Rock Climbers Training Manual? I will have a look at it tomorrow
(Sorry if that was a bit of a ramble, night-shift brain is fried)
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I've been following a low-carb, high(ish) fat and protein diet for the last few months and the results have been pretty good. I've definitely upped my training levels and intensity, often training twice a day, and my energy levels and ability to recover have been excellent. Over and above this, I've shed a few kilos despite taking a view of food that is more focused on the quality of what I eat than the quantity - my previous climbing weight management efforts were very calorie-focused, which is a shit way to live.
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dom, i looked at your power club posts recently and its the exact kind of thing im trying to do this phase - bouldering, hangboard, weights,etc. I'll give it a go and see how it works out.
And do you do anything with meal timing or nutrient timing or just in general try to eat more protein/fat and less carbs these days? I guess my only concern is running out of juice during a longer bouldering session, for instance if im not eating enough carbs.
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dom, i looked at your power club posts recently and its the exact kind of thing im trying to do this phase - bouldering, hangboard, weights,etc. I'll give it a go and see how it works out.
And do you do anything with meal timing or nutrient timing or just in general try to eat more protein/fat and less carbs these days? I guess my only concern is running out of juice during a longer bouldering session, for instance if im not eating enough carbs.
No timing or anything like that - in fact, the biggest change for me has been the consistency of energy. I haven't had that low blood sugar feeling that I got when I was eating more carbs, instead I eat breakfast at approximately 6:15am, lunch at 12pm, and dinner at 7:30pm and only ever very rarely snack inbetween, whereas previously I would have a mid-morning and mid-afternoon energy bar to raise my flagging energy levels. These days, I take along snacks when I go bouldering, but very rarely actually eat them, unless I'm out for 4 hours.
That said, the diet does feel counter-intuitive at times - "what do you mean, more fat?!" - but the upside is that you get to eat tasty things like cheese and chorizo without guilt.
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I guess my only concern is running out of juice during a longer bouldering session, for instance if im not eating enough carbs.
If your goal is to work on physical (hard for your) problems you probably want to be finishing your workout while you still have something in the tank. I have found longer bouldering sessions to hurt my ability to do big moves and mess up recovery for the next workout.
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Been getting into a strength phase -- basically bouldering a lot after mostly climbing for a while and been a bit frustrated at slow progress on very physical problems. I can hang on forever off a crimp or sloper but am falling on the big moves, the gastons, on the lockoffs. The tendons and pulleys are strong but the muscles are weak and they are taking forever to grow.
I obviously need to tune my workouts better but thinking back to when i did weight training i remember diet made a big difference. Id think that the stuff you eat in a low volume high intensity strength phase should probably be quite different from the higher volume lower intensity endurance or performance phases, no?
I'm currently eating a fairly balanced diet with some protein but more carbs and veggies - fine for climbing loads but i wonder if its holding me back in terms of strength. Im thinking i might try upping the protein and fat intake while decreasing carbs for the next few weeks.
In addition i was thinking of doing more weights and rings during this period - deadlifting, maybe even a few squats, to encourage general muscle growth. After this period I'd go back to maintenance work.
Was wondering if anyone has experimented with adjusting their diet with these periodized programs and how it went? Any weight lifter will tell you diet is as important as exercise for muscle growth. If you're periodizing your training, it doesnt make sense to me that your diet should stay the same.
When i look around the boulder gym i notice quite a few of the strong boulderers have some meat on their bones, whereas strong route climbers seem almost universally lanky. A few kg put on during a strength phase and the excess cut during subsequent phases doesnt seem like it would hurt things.
Have you tried training bigger moves with good form on easier angles?
If you can hang locked off with slightly bent arms forever, then training on the fingerboard is not going to address your inability to do big moves.
unless you are already training big moves, or the type of moves you are weak at, at an appropriate level of difficulty (or exertion), then do this first, if you already have a balanced diet.
It's easy to get the movement dialled in for big moves, using pulleys or therabands or whatever else floats your boat.
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It's easy to get the movement dialled in for big moves, using pulleys or therabands or whatever else floats your boat.
Could you elaborate on this a bit? I have often wondered what is the best approach to this sort of thing. :-\
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And anyway, bulking is far more difficult than it may appear, especially depending on body type, if you want a good bulk that is mainly due to increased muscle mass.
I wouldn't see the issue in this way, bulking/cutting, because you're not a bodybuilder, you're a climber that's needing some power to up his game.
So, train for power and not for bulk: the two respond to very different stimuli. Power goes with high intensity and low reps, bulk with lower intensity and higher reps (very simplified).
Training for power you'll get power, and some bulk, but with a very high quality muscle.
Training for bulk you'll only get bulk, with that typical rounded and inflated aspect, and no power.
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^I agree with everything
also like to add its hard to improve power at the same time as loosing weight.
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agree with nibs,bulk and cut is for bodybuilders not climbers.training hard with weights will see a few kg of muscle a year max.
train for strength not bulk.
its all very well having strong arms but if its too much for your fingers you will snap things and be limited by your fingers strength anyway.
id say i might be one of the strongest on this board,but im one of the shittest climbers.there must be something to take from that
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cheers guys for the info and feedback.
bulking and cutting is obviously being used a bit loosely here. No one is in a bodybuilding contest here and ineffective bulk is not the goal. The point of the "bulking" phase is simply to have enough resources available to the body that the training effect is maximised during a strength phase.
The corrollary to the "bulking" is the "cutting" which would be reducing the protein and fat content back to maintenance levels or even less than maintenance and eating more carbs for energy while transitioning your training to something closer to what you are trying to do. Losing the unwanted body mass, including unused muscle mass, by eating whats needed for performance but not more.
I think its easy to get sucked into the muscle = good so we should always be optimizing muscle gains, but my understanding of strength training is that for best gains you want to eat more than maintenance and also be doing high intensity. If you're sport climbing, excess weight and high recruitment is pretty much a recipe for pumping out.
A sport climber needs strength to do the hardest moves on the route, but otherwise they should be light as they can be and be pulling as soft as they can on the holds. Dare i say it - low recruitment.
It's popular in training to eat and train for strength year round but if you're aiming to do hard sport climbing at your limit i think the bulking is cool but i feel there should be a cutting phase - and thats not just the training but the diet as well.
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I definitely see your perspective. However, I haven't really found the idea of "cutting" to be very valuable. I have a (I like to think) fairly decent diet and I generally train for power. If I starve myself and really work on endurance I find I can cut 5 pounds and along with this see a fairly good improvement in endurance. :badidea:
However, my power suffers and in the end I spend a week tired and grumpy followed by two weeks trying to get the lost power back. I could see this approach if you are near your genetic potential. However, for me personally, I am nowhere near that, so I could spend the three or so weeks just getting better and not mess with the food/craziness that goes with "cutting."
On a side note: I hate climbing with people who are doing the anorexic dance. They are slow to hike to the climbs, grumpy the whole time, only have energy for a few goes, and then you just listen to them complain about how they are tired and how fat you are after climbing... :chair:
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I do something roughly along the lines you suggest, though I don't modulate protein and carb intake how you're talking about it. Essentially,
Base phase - eat plenty
Peak phase (pre trip) - get light
This allows you to put muscle on and have lots of energy whilst doing the strength work and high volume enduro in the base but be light when it matters
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Possibly that Racing Weight book Dave Mac recommends would have something useful on this general subject? Keep meaning to order it ...
Plenty protein and not too much calories esp carbs during a power phase is what I've been doing for the last five weeks. Happy with progress and my recovery rate. At 40 I think day on / day off being ok for campus/threshold bouldering/4 rep weights is as good as I can hope for!
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Low calories and low carbs during a power phase? :-\
I think that the most important things to bear in mind, with sports nutrition, are: the possible long term consequences of sudden and drastic changes in one's diet (especially under the form of metabolic issues, insulin resistance, etc); the importance of what's called "peri-workout nutrition".
The first aspect is the most important, because to tick a project we could really fuck up our metabolims for months; the second is more relevant to performance. We have to eat for what we are going to do. There's no meaning in having low carbs before and intense workout, as there's no meaning in eating a ton of pasta right before spending the whole afternoon sitting on the beach.
So, low carbs, high proteins, etc. per se don't mean anything, they have to be related to the activity. ELEL EMEM are the two guidelines: Excercise Less Eat Less, Excercise More Eat More. We have to teach our body to burn burn burn, and we obtain this by giving our body lots to burn. Most people fail because the team new eating habits - always under the form of reduced calories and carbs - with sudden increase in training. That's the worst you could possibly do. Sudden gains, forever fucked.
Trimming the diet is the trickiest thing, and I think that it's best to resist the temptation of searching for quick gains that are going to be lost in the long term and never gained back.
My 2 cents.
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Low calories and low carbs during a power phase? :-\
I think that the most important things to bear in mind, with sports nutrition, are: the possible long term consequences of sudden and drastic changes in one's diet (especially under the form of metabolic issues, insulin resistance, etc); the importance of what's called "peri-workout nutrition".
The first aspect is the most important, because to tick a project we could really fuck up our metabolims for months; the second is more relevant to performance. We have to eat for what we are going to do. There's no meaning in having low carbs before and intense workout, as there's no meaning in eating a ton of pasta right before spending the whole afternoon sitting on the beach.
So, low carbs, high proteins, etc. per se don't mean anything, they have to be related to the activity. ELEL EMEM are the two guidelines: Excercise Less Eat Less, Excercise More Eat More. We have to teach our body to burn burn burn, and we obtain this by giving our body lots to burn. Most people fail because the team new eating habits - always under the form of reduced calories and carbs - with sudden increase in training. That's the worst you could possibly do. Sudden gains, forever fucked.
Trimming the diet is the trickiest thing, and I think that it's best to resist the temptation of searching for quick gains that are going to be lost in the long term and never gained back.
My 2 cents.
In return, my 2 cents.. I agree with most of this, but my personal experience is that a low carb/high fat/high protein diet, at a relatively 'normal' level of caloric intake, is way more sustainable than a low calorie diet - it's more of a lifestyle than a diet - and that I've not felt underpowered or lacking in energy. That said, it doesn't work for everyone. My fiance, for example, struggled with this kind of diet and hated it, whereas I've noticed a steady weight loss without ever feeling hungry or low on energy.
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I presume there's a typo in there somewhere, since otherwise you seem to have just said that you find a normal calorie diet easier to sustain than a low calorie diet. I think most wouldn't argue with that one! :lol:
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;D The devil is in the details, innit?
I think that the key of the post is the high fat/low carbs thing.
But I'm really getting lost now. As I've said somewhere on here, I've read that the dangerous combination is high fats and high carbs, while the other options (high fats/low carbs and high carbs/low fats) aren't as dangerous in terms of gaining FAT.
But, I can't see why one should prefer to have high fats in the place of high carbs. Carbs are not the devil, if properly taken. Again, it's the timing that makes the difference. Yesterday evening, for instance, I had a huge snack before training, coffee, cookies, a slice of cake. And... BOOM! Mega session, added 1 kg to my weightvest and still could complete all 4 one-footed test problems, I had a good go on the project circuit and then I did hill sprints adding 4/5 meters to the previous distance, at a major angle.
The evening before, I had skipped the snack and had to cut the session before even starting, my head was empty and I could neither concentrate nor pull.
Briefly put, I'd choose a carbs-rich diet over a fats-rich diet all the time, in fact, that's what I do.
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Seems like there are three different topics going on at once:
1) Optimal calorie, fat, carb ratios
2) Diet changes for different training phases
3) Diet changes for performing
:shrug:
Or maybe I am just totally out to lunch.
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I read an article on sports nutrition recently, it suggested that the traditional low fat diet advice prevailing over the last decade has an unintended consequence. People generally end up eating more carbs instead which if you are inactive may as well be refined sugar. Also manufactures of processed foods replaced fats for sugars leading to a rise in obesity and type 2 diabetes.
It suggests fat should not be avoided, as they increase satiety and help control appetite leading to a reduction in overall calorie intake compared to a carb rich diet.
I tried switching some foods I eat based on that advice and found I lost weight, felt fuller between meals and still had lots of energy to train.
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I reckon fat is good for you, keeps you full longer and you don't get the blood sugar level spike you get from refined carbs and sugars. You can get fat from healthy sources as well like oily fish, avocados and nuts. The first thing I do after I get up is eat a handful of nuts and down half a pint of water. This takes the edge off craving sugary cereals etc in the morning. Then on a non-training day I'll have a boiled egg and pour some nice olive oil and salt and pepper on it. No mid morning cravings and straight into lunch!
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If what a lot of knowledgeable people are saying about sugar is true then it's another tobbaco-industry in the making and the lo-fat / high carbs thing is a food marketing/food industry scandal. By the time mainstream Jo Public catch up with what a lot of smart people already believe about sugar the numbers of people affected by poor health - obesity, inflammatory diseases, diabetes etc. - caused by a diet containing too much simple carbs will be huge.
I eat shit-loads of natural fat - unsaturated and saturated - and I'm lean: 68Kg @ 5'10''. Might just be lucky but I think a lot about what I eat. I cook breakfast in good quality butter 5 days per week; lunch and dinner I hammer the olive oil, avocado, oily fish, nuts, and various other fatty foods from natural sources with as little processing as possible.
I avoid simple carbs like the plaque unless I'm in the middle of some high-intensity output like a long winter climbing day where you sometimes need the immediate sugar hit to avoid boinking.
Pre-workout/climbing day - some wholegrain or other complex carbs from as unprocessed a source as possible and some fat to keep hunger at bay, but very little protein as it makes me feel sluggish. Post workout/day - equal parts protein, natural fats and wholegrain carbs.
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I eat sweets and cake.
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and shake like a shitting dog.
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I eat sweets and cake.
And each year you get a bit heavier.
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And stronger
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As someone (think it was George Smith via Pete R) once said: 'you'll never be aware of passing your own zenith'.
Too much sweets and cake makes passing it come earlier.
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I presume there's a typo in there somewhere, since otherwise you seem to have just said that you find a normal calorie diet easier to sustain than a low calorie diet. I think most wouldn't argue with that one! :lol:
There's not a typo - I know it seems self-evident, but my point was that it's easier to lose weight or maintain healthy weight by reforming your diet than it is by going into caloric deficit, a fact that is not always appreciated by climbers. I know this, because I've spent months at a time, on more than one occasion, on low calorie diets and absolutely miserable. At the moment, while I'm not quite as light as I was then, I'm much more easily able to maintain my weight, while never feeling miserable about how little I can eat or having to count calories - I just have to limit my carb intake.
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For a thread with such a nonsense title there's some good stuff on this one.
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If what a lot of knowledgeable people are saying about sugar is true then it's another tobbaco-industry in the making and the lo-fat / high carbs thing is a food marketing/food industry scandal. By the time mainstream Jo Public catch up with what a lot of smart people already believe about sugar the numbers of people affected by poor health - obesity, inflammatory diseases, diabetes etc. - caused by a diet containing too much simple carbs will be huge.
By the time? Already happening. Obesity has been steadily rising over the last few decades (see figure 2.3 on pg12 (http://www.hscic.gov.uk/catalogue/PUB13648/Obes-phys-acti-diet-eng-2014-rep.pdf), also figure 7.4 on pg 56 shows that this has placed an increased burden on hospital admissions/episodes). Diabetes prevalence has also increased (another random link (http://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news_landing_page/diabetes-rates-in-the-uk-soar-to-nearly-3m/).
The "sugar industry" are regularly disagreeing with regulation/academics about the impact of sugar on public health (take your pick (https://www.google.co.uk/#q=sugar+industry+news&tbm=nws)).
For example, whilst not related to obesity it transpires the "sugar industry" have not been above manipulating public health policy (http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2015/03/sugar-industry-shaped-nih-agenda-dental-research) in the past, just as tobacco companies did.
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Yep. I've been a believer in the health benefits of a diet high in fat / low in sugar for around the last 5 years now and have read a ton of stuff around the subject. That said, it never fails to amaze me how something can seem like a no-brainer one day - i.e. reducing consumption of sugar/refined simple carbs - and then in a decade's time the wisdom changes as new evidence emerges. I'm open to the possibility that what I believe could be completely wrong. However at the moment the case against sugar looks damning and as if the 'sugar industry' may be culpable for causing a massive amount of ill health. I avoid it.
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Yep. I've been a believer in the health benefits of a diet high in fat / low in sugar for around the last 5 years now and have read a ton of stuff around the subject. That said, it never fails to amaze me how something can seem like a no-brainer one day - i.e. reducing consumption of sugar/refined simple carbs - and then in a decade's time the wisdom changes as new evidence emerges. I'm open to the possibility that what I believe could be completely wrong. However at the moment the case against sugar looks damning and as if the 'sugar industry' may be culpable for causing a massive amount of ill health. I avoid it.
My fiance went on a sugar detox and it was an ugly, difficult process. I don't think that we appreciate the amount of sugar that most people actually ingest and the potential health implications there.
If you're interested in the high fat / low carb diet and science, read The Real Meal Revolution )(http://realmealrevolution.com/ (http://realmealrevolution.com/)) by Dr Tim Noakes. I don't necessarily agree with all of it (and I find it a bit of a polemic), but it makes some compelling points, and the principles of the diet have worked very well for me.
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Yep. I've been a believer in the health benefits of a diet high in fat / low in sugar for around the last 5 years now and have read a ton of stuff around the subject. That said, it never fails to amaze me how something can seem like a no-brainer one day - i.e. reducing consumption of sugar/refined simple carbs - and then in a decade's time the wisdom changes as new evidence emerges. I'm open to the possibility that what I believe could be completely wrong. However at the moment the case against sugar looks damning and as if the 'sugar industry' may be culpable for causing a massive amount of ill health. I avoid it.
Same boat. I used to try and keep my fat intake down as I was told ad infinitum that this was a "healthy diet". Especially since meeting my lass (so the last 4 years) I eat a fairly high fat, moderate protein and low carb diet. I rarely get serious hinger pangs, my weight has been remarkably stable and low and I barely ever need to think about what I eat. Loads of nuts, olive oil, cheese, pastry, etc. etc. Feel great! High fructose corn syrup is satin's cum!
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My fiance went on a sugar detox and it was an ugly, difficult process. I don't think that we appreciate the amount of sugar that most people actually ingest and the potential health implications there.
If you're interested in the high fat / low carb diet and science, read The Real Meal Revolution )(http://realmealrevolution.com/ (http://realmealrevolution.com/)) by Dr Tim Noakes. I don't necessarily agree with all of it (and I find it a bit of a polemic), but it makes some compelling points, and the principles of the diet have worked very well for me.
Not at all having a go at you The-Dom but.. There may have been a time when I might have paid for books like that but not any more.
If you want the science it's easily and freely available from reputable sources, dyor.
If you want healthy diet plans, ditto.
If you want to help someone to make a living out of commodifying information around a subject which is a fundamental human necessity - consuming a healthy diet - buy their book.
That Real Meal website has lots of good free info and I agree with their message. I don't think it's necessary to pay someone a penny to learn how to eat a healthy diet, unless you really are a sheep with no willpower or inquisitiveness who needs to be taken by the hand and led step by step through how to avoid the ubiquitous processed crap we're told is 'food' and instead cook with unprocessed ingredients.
Actually I can see there's a huge market for the healthy eating bandwagon because marketing has turned so many people into idiots.. and the solution is an idiots guide..
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Fultonius - yep bang on, that's my experience too with weight stable, feeling energetic and never a food pang.
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My fiance went on a sugar detox and it was an ugly, difficult process. I don't think that we appreciate the amount of sugar that most people actually ingest and the potential health implications there.
If you're interested in the high fat / low carb diet and science, read The Real Meal Revolution )(http://realmealrevolution.com/ (http://realmealrevolution.com/)) by Dr Tim Noakes. I don't necessarily agree with all of it (and I find it a bit of a polemic), but it makes some compelling points, and the principles of the diet have worked very well for me.
Not at all having a go at you The-Dom but.. There may have been a time when I might have paid for books like that but not any more.
If you want the science it's easily and freely available from reputable sources, dyor.
If you want healthy diet plans, ditto.
If you want to help someone to make a living out of commodifying information around a subject which is a fundamental human necessity - consuming a healthy diet - buy their book.
That Real Meal website has lots of good free info and I agree with their message. I don't think it's necessary to pay someone a penny to learn how to eat a healthy diet, unless you really are a sheep with no willpower or inquisitiveness who needs to be taken by the hand and led step by step through how to avoid the ubiquitous processed crap we're told is 'food' and instead cook with unprocessed ingredients.
Actually I can see there's a huge market for the healthy eating bandwagon because marketing has turned so many people into idiots.. and the solution is an idiots guide..
I agree - to an extent. However, I think that climbers tend to be more aware of what they're eating and why than your average person.
I didn't actually buy Noakes's book - I felt that I could grasp and live by most of the principles based on my base level of knowledge and experience, but after my fiance bought it I found that it was actually a decent reference, as I tend to browse books that are lying around and take in more than if I was surfing the net at work.
That said, there's a huge amount available online, but the book has gone a long way towards creating awareness around a different kind of healthy eating, at least here in SA, and I think there's real benefit to that. People tend to be idiots who make terrible food choices - the more about healthy eating, the better.
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:offtopic:
Coke is a healthy snack: How company pays to get out that message (http://mashable.com/2015/03/16/coke-is-a-healthy-snack/) :-\
Should point out sugar isn't the sole cause of the "obesity epidemic" its one factor among many including for example increasingly sedentary work (e.g. sitting at a desk).
:offtopic:
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There's a bit of a danger of railing at smoke here.
There has never been any evidence for the high carb diets that have been pushed for decades as healthy. They remain the official advice given out by doctors all over the world, and yet anyone with any inquisitiveness knows that it's nonsense. Lots of people, including plenty of doctors, are not very inquisitive. So it goes.
We're still relatively ignorant about the impact of nutrition in various areas. The old advice of 'eat food, not too much, mainly vegetables' still pretty much sums up the useful stuff I think? I suppose we might now add 'eat plenty of fat and a good amount of protein; avoid stuff that's been heavily processed'.
Lots of people find anything like this totally impossible to understand or translate into practical action. That's why there's a huge business of explaining, simplifying, confusing, packaging and formulating this stuff into diet schemas. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. The knowledge is out there for free - if people want it dressed up in a way that appeals or works for them, then they should pay for it.
By far the bigger problem is getting the mainstream health profession to be very very clear about the reality. Eat food, not too much, mainly vegetables. Simple, but not necessarily easy for many.
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On the obesity/weight gain front there's been some research in recent years pointing the finger at the amount of synthetic chemicals in things like Tupperware food storage, BPA in tinned cans etc for affecting weight gain.
What hamsforlegs said about 'eat food, not too much, mainly vegetables' is pretty much spot on. Most of the fancy diets these days (I think Dave Mac says this in 9 out of 10 climbers?) just work by effectively manipulating your diet so you are taking in less calories, and beyond a certain point the macro % of carb/fat/protein doesn't seem to matter.
Problem is the food industry. processing food adds value (to the producer), mostly by using the cheapest possible ingredients that are often not much good for anything else, or are byproducts of other processes. God only knows what they put in mcdonalds burgers etc :sick:
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For all those on the low carb thing, don't you eat any bread/pasta/rice/tatties etc? Pretty much everything I eat revolves around those key ingredients........
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I can't speak for the other guys but I'll try and explain what I mean.
I had spent many years trying to keep my weight down for climbing. I used to be 12 1/2 stone (78kg), some of it was unessecarry muscle but plenty of it was splodgy fatty mank.
So I cut out fat. You know, because fat is bad. No butter, much less cream, low fat yoghurt all that shit. Made no bloody difference, was always starving by lunch.
I lost quite a lot of weight on a 7 week climbing trip back in 2009 (down to 11st 10 / 74kg or so iirc) and after that just went back to a normal ish diet (lots of veg, medium everything else). In fact, I lost most of that in the first 4 weeks being in the hebrides for a week then lofoten for 3, then put some back on in 3 weeks in squamish haha!
Anyway, now coming to the point. Basically I've just changed my approach to food where I don't consider fats "bad" and everything else "good" (not that I ever thought sugar was good.
A very typical* day for me would be: Big bowl Meusli (with as little added sugar as I can find) and full fat greek yoghurt. Lunch would be a half baguette with cheese and tomato or a wrap with tuna etc and dinner would be something like quiche, some potatoes, salad or a big salad of goats cheese, nuts, little bit of pasta. (* would eat less on an "office day" but 4 or 5 days out of 7 I'm out skiing/climbing/mountainbiking/offshore working, so I have a high calorie requirement a lot of the time...for now)
So it's not some kind of "atkins" no carb thing and I'm not trying to lose weight (72/73kg and 182cm / 11st 8/9 and a smidge under 6") I just want to be full of energy and not have serious hunger pangs. Working offshore is where I notice the benefit of higher protein and fat content in breakfast etc. If I have a bowl of normla cereal I'll be ravenous by 10, whereas 2 bits of toast, 2 poached eggs and maybe a slice of black pudding will keep me full till lunch. I don't count calories, so maybe the second just has more than the first but I don't seem to struggle with putting on weight. (whereas I used to sometimes come back from offshore 2 or 3kg heavier)
Anyway, it's now 05:30 Malaysian time so I better go for breakfast.
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P.S. the main shift in my approach has been a conscious reduction in sugar and sugar-type things (high fructose death goop) which "low fat" products are often laden with. I've even halved my glass of fruit juice in the morning :o
I probably consume a similar amount of calories as before, just shifted the balance towards fats from sugars. Protein is about the same (if not less, due to the lass being veggie).
A typical main course for me previously would have been a big bowl of pasta, or pile of rice with chile con carne etc. I just watch the size of my carb portions now, unless I've just had a big day in the mountains then it's a case of eat as much as possible, no matter what it is!
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a slice of black pudding will keep me full till lunch
as in fully engaged on the toilet? :lol:
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P.S. the main shift in my approach has been a conscious reduction in sugar and sugar-type things (high fructose death goop) which "low fat" products are often laden with. I've even halved my glass of fruit juice in the morning :o
It is interesting. I think simply being "vested" in what you put in your mouth fixes 95% of the issues. Simply avoiding the "this is crap" and "I don't need to eat this," seems to really help with the diet.
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it's easy to go a bit overboard with the X is good, Y is bad stuff eh?
Too much carbs are bad - but that doesnt mean you need to get rid of them all - not even the simple stuff.
Fat can be good - but eating a completely fried meal is probably less than great.
I went completely overboard with the protein/fat increase last week and had a pretty bad time, now im at a more moderate increase and feel great.
These fad diet/nutrition things are probably overall a good thing as they are based on science - you learn more about your body and what is good and bad for it as well as how to optimize for sport, but you still gotta have some common sense and pay attention to your own body, not just what people who probably have a completely different body composition and lifestyle from you say.
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For all those on the low carb thing, don't you eat any bread/pasta/rice/tatties etc? Pretty much everything I eat revolves around those key ingredients........
No. I've done my best to cut them out completely. Given any choice, I'll not eat any of those at all, but that's my 2 cents based on what works for me.
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I avoid pasta like the plague, and generally only eat home baked wholemeal/spelt bread (the equiv of a 4 or 5 slices per week I'd say).
The main way I can feel full is if I eat a fair amount of lentils, brown/wild rice, quinoa (this stuff is gold dust btw). Obviously those all have various amounts of carbs in them, but generally slower releasing/lower quantities than your average bread/pasta/potatoes
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Recently started a low sugar thing myself and so far so good. Definitely feeling less hunger pangs. If I fancy a snack it's a carrot rather than whatever is in the office biscuit tin. Afternoon slumps are less noticiable too. Feel more awake and energetic generally.
Also reducing my carb intake though bingeing on them when necessary. Like tonight ready for 4 hours of running tomorrow.
A note on quinoa as it's been mentioned. The West's increased appetite for this wonder food has effectively priced out the poorest Bolivians and Peruvians from where it is or in fact was a staple food. Imported junk food is now cheaper for them. Links available on Google.
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Recently started a low sugar thing myself and so far so good. Definitely feeling less hunger pangs. If I fancy a snack it's a carrot rather than whatever is in the office biscuit tin. Afternoon slumps are less noticiable too. Feel more awake and energetic generally.
Also reducing my carb intake though bingeing on them when necessary. Like tonight ready for 4 hours of running tomorrow.
A note on quinoa as it's been mentioned. The West's increased appetite for this wonder food has effectively priced out the poorest Bolivians and Peruvians from where it is or in fact was a staple food. Imported junk food is now cheaper for them. Links available on Google.
I'm happy to get into the ethics of buying quinoa with you, though maybe hijacking the thread isn't the best place. Suffice to say it's not a case of greedy westerners forcing the poor farmers at gunpoint to hand the stuff over. The farmers are making a very good living from it, and still have enough to feed themselves and their communities in the most cases. I personally buy certified fairtrade quinoa and don't think I should feel 'guilty' about it. (in the same way as I do tea, coffee, sugar, bananas, and other 'high risk' food products ((can you say the same?) It's a complex issue but this article is a good place to start http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/08/fair-trade-quinoa_n_3561949.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/08/fair-trade-quinoa_n_3561949.html) . In summary: you can't stop globalization, best thing to do is ensure local people are being paid a fair price for their product (whether its clothes, food, consumer goods, whatever) and have working conditions etc.
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Are there any quickly prepared high-protein packed lunches? I have never found a truly satisfactory alternative to the sandwich - not without lots of pre-cooking and preparation of fresh ingredients. I always end up reverting back to bread just because I always have a wholemeal loaf in the freezer and can knock up a sandwich in minutes.
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Last nights cold leftovers in a tupperware box is the easiest option!
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I sometimes cook an omelette the night before and have it for breakfast. 1 minute in the microwave at work does the trick. Not so handy if you don't have access to a fridge and microwave to have for lunch.
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Making a salad with meat cut up into it doesn't take too long
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Last time I tried to prepare some food in advance for a few days, I ended up eating 1,2 kilos of tripes.
I slept like a baby that night.
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I eat tinned fish and oatcakes 3 times per week. Easy to organise, but not much fun unless you like tinned fish and oatcakes.
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those John West Light Lunches are OK with another tin of fish on top - convenient, but not cheap
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I eat tinned fish and oatcakes 3 times per week. Easy to organise, but not much fun unless you like tinned fish and oatcakes.
A tub of hummus or some paté is a good alternative to go with oatcakes.
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my diet has always been eat when hungry,eat less if i want to loose weight and if i want to gain weight i eat even when not hungry.
ive never worried what its consisted of too much,as long as its a mix of everything.
i watched something this week on diets,it was a brit in america. to say they were fucking fruit bats would be an understatement ,one old couple were on a restricted calorie diet.he thought he was really healthy,the old twat looked like if he got a cold he would croak it.
others ate raw food only,others fruit only others a caveman diet. just a bunch of americans who treated diet like a religion
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Off topic but the old twat was only "mid sixties". Maybe it was my TV reception but he didn't look good on it at all.
FWIW, I agree with your understanding of eat less to lose weight, eat more to gain weight. I'm no expert but have recently got into training and diets and reading up on it, listening to podcasts and such. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors but that's the basic diet principle. I can see why some folk want it to be more complicated but it isn't really.
but I'm still in the getting-the-weight-down phase and have a lot to learn...
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Beyond the scope of this thread, but there's little doubt that calorie restriction (maintaining a balance of nutrients) extends lifespan and/or promotes good health for longer into old age. That doesn't mean it's going to help you train for and send your proj.
Saw that programe - what about the paleo diet guy? He looked in pretty amazing shape for mid-sixties although I wonder what his cholesterol was like...