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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Luke Owens on November 03, 2014, 03:01:07 pm
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I've moaned on for awhile to climbing friends and on Power Club about the reoccurring tight forearm feeling I get after climbing, It seems to occur when I do routes or boulder no matter how hard or easy the session is.
I've tried all sorts of massaging using tennis balls etc. and warming up and down before and after sessions, but nothing seems to get rid of the deep ache in my forearms. I always seem to have DOMS longer than everyone else as well. Even if I do eat and sleep enough.
If I have the ache and I go to do routes for example I get pumped more quickly than usual and power out real quick, then my forearms get completely cramped up (this hurts a lot!). I always know at the start of the day if it's going to go well or not judging by how deep the ache in my forearms are.
I've also tried taking time off, (up to 3 weeks previously) and the tightness and ache did go away but returned straight away after starting climbing again. It does kinda help if I do some really light training inbetween sessions such as light Aerocap, I remember this doing more good than bad.
At the moment the ache is pretty bad and I've only had 2 short route sessions in the past week but inbetween sessions especially while asleep my forearms, hands and fingers randomly go numb. Right now as I'm typing this I can feel a dull pins and needles feeling in my hands/fingers.
I've spoke to a few people about this now and no one seems to experience the same thing/hasn't got a clue what I'm talking about.
Does this happen to anyone else? Any idea what's going on?
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Have you investigated pain transferral from your shoulders? Or radial nerve impingment?
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I've had it on and off for 20 years. I can do a route and lower off feeling so wasted I can't even untie, but there's hardly a vein showing in my forearms, I think it might just be they've never really developed much.
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I'm not a doctor, but read too much on the internet in search of information about my next injury before it happens. Google search Exertional Compartment Syndrome Forearm Climbing or some permutation of these terms and see if it fits?
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My left arm plays up Luke, as I've mentioned before. Non of my mates really get what I'm on about. Physio mentioned compartment syndrome, particularly as I get bruising sometimes but from everything I've read, I'm pretty sure that's not applicable to me. I know from the first 'hard' climb of the day just how things will work out. Sometimes pins and needle (this morning actually) but not bad DOMS.
You mention that doing lots of easy aerocap work seemed to help... I think I'm finally getting on top of my issues and it's easy aerocap that's helping, I think. Pretty sure my issues are work related and I have a decent ability to produce lactate but no ability to use it in climbing...
Alex Barrows wrote this in his Training thingymajiggy " It should be noted that increasing your anaerobic capacity thus increases your ability to produce lactate, meaning that it is essential to do sufficient aerobic capacity work whilst working on this energy system (and aerobic power work afterwards), or your body won’t be able to cope with this new ability and you’ll quickly find yourself very, very pumped. This is a rare example of ‘more is not always better’.
Maybe really focus on the aerocap for a while? Then aeropower? At least then you could eliminate the above as an issue.
It's also worth a read up on compartment stuff I'd have thought and really analyzing the rest of your life too, climbing may not be the root cause of the problem. Fingers crossed it's not that as it sounds pretty nasty.
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I get pumped more quickly than usual and power out real quick, then my forearms get completely cramped up (this hurts a lot!).
I could have wrote this myself. I don't have any warning of it until the first time I put some effort in and it's thoroughly disabling - seriously painful. When I try to ignore it and carry on, that's when I get the bruising.
Sorry I've no answers Luke but if two of us get such similar symptoms, there must be something out there on the web.
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Thanks everyone.
Have you investigated pain transferral from your shoulders? Or radial nerve impingment?
I get very achy shoulders also, I forgot to mention I often get DOMS in my front delts.
My friend Ally mentioned nerve impingement but in my neck; one day when we were at Malham recently. It was one of them days I knew it wasn't going to go well as I had the ache in my forearms before I started. After a warm up I tried onsighting Rose Coronary and got really powered out. I ended up doing it 3rd redpoint (It's well below my redpoint limit) I really fought the cramp and pain and clawed my way to the top of the route after clipping the chains both of my entire arms from forearms to shoulders cramped up; I couldn't even lift my arms above my head or make a fist it was that bad... This is what made him suggest the above. It was crippling and certainly can't be normal?
I've had it on and off for 20 years. I can do a route and lower off feeling so wasted I can't even untie, but there's hardly a vein showing in my forearms, I think it might just be they've never really developed much.
I definitely have the vascularity to show for it when I get pumped/powered out, it's almost laughable how massive my veins and forearms go.
I'm not a doctor, but read too much on the internet in search of information about my next injury before it happens. Google search Exertional Compartment Syndrome Forearm Climbing or some permutation of these terms and see if it fits?
Thanks, I'll look into this.
My left arm plays up Luke, as I've mentioned before. Non of my mates really get what I'm on about. Physio mentioned compartment syndrome, particularly as I get bruising sometimes but from everything I've read, I'm pretty sure that's not applicable to me.
Yeah, I remember you saying you had it. I get it equal in both arms just as much pain and ache in both. I've never experienced anything as severe as bruising though.
I have a decent ability to produce lactate but no ability to use it in climbing..
I definitely produce a high level of lactic acid, there's no doubt about that. I basically drown in it. Once I cross the line from Aerobic to Anaerobic I can't sustain it for many moves and just get shut down.
I've never purposely worked my Anaerobic systems but I guess I may have inadvertently done so by spending a lot of time redpointing short hard (for me) routes. This year I've done more aerocap and onsighting which I think helped. For example I had a few weeks where I didn't redpoint anything and just onsighted routes and I didn't get this problem as long as I didn't cross the line to much and power out.
I'd like to think it was just an energy system imbalance, but I think it must be something else due to the numbness and pins and needles. Aerocap is something I'm going to continue working through winter though.
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it sounds to me a bit separate - the pumping and the pins and needles issue, but that's just my perspective.
regarding the numbness, I had something similar - numbness/pins down the outside of my elbow to the pinky, especialy after sleeping. This was during a period when i built up quite a bit of muscle in the forearms in a short amount of time from doing fingerboard and bouldering. I looked it up and it seemed to be "ulnar nerve entrapment", a type of pinched nerve syndrome. It resolved itself over time as I fixed my sleeping posture - making sure to keep my arms straight, and doing the same at the computer.
I don't know if that helps but hopefully it gives you more insight - adjusting your sleeping posture is an easy enough fix to try. Besides that aspect the whole combination of issues you're having sounds like it could be time for a few weeks rest/aerocap with maybe a low volume fingerboard session or two a week to maintain fitness, and maybe even a visit to the Doctor?
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I used to get the pins and needles in the outside 2 fingers of my hands. It was especially bad on trips where I was camping, mainly cos I'd often end up sleeping face down with my hands balled up under me (combination of cold and uncomfortable back).
One big thing that I think has changed this for me, apart from sleeping flat with arms straight, is that I do a lot more shoulder stability / chest opening exercises - I.e. 20-40 mins twice a week. It would now be uncomfortable for me to sleep like that as my shoulders dont roll forward like they used to.
The clearest measureable benchmark for me is seated dumbbell shoulder press. I literally couldn't do 12 reps with 5lb dumbbells as it felt so impinged. So I avoided it for years. After physio and other exercises I have faced the humiliation of doing tiny weights and built it gradually up to a relatively normal if unimpressive 35lb in each hand.
May be completely unrelated to your issues, but if you DO have poor shoulder alignment it could be affecting blood flow or nerves down to your hands.
Having said all this, I had a friend with compartment syndrome and it is scary how quickly it can get worse - your issue does sound like it could be related, so worth monitoring your arms with that in mind.
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It may not be the same thing, but I was chatting to a friend last week who described a nerve impingement problem. It sounds very similar - the numbness in their hands got so bad they had to take a couple of months off work. It was caused by nerve impingement in the neck/shoulders, brought on by lots of sport climbing and sitting at a desk leading to bad posture. Sorting the posture out with antagonistic stuff especially yoga and Pilates seemed to sort it out for them.
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With cramps etc. I would also have a blood test to check minerals levels.
As for the rest, the pins and numbness definitely seem ulnar nerve impingment. As said, I noticed great improvement from sleeping with straight arms, instead of with bent elbows with all my weight on them.
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Thanks for the advice guys. I've changed my sleeping position the last few nights, I'm still waking up in the night with random numbness e.g sometimes the thumb on one hand, my whole other hand, pinky on one hand etc. It's completely random. I'm guessing it's not a quick fix so I'll keep at it. Any idea on how long it would take to notice a change if this is the reason for it?
One big thing that I think has changed this for me, apart from sleeping flat with arms straight, is that I do a lot more shoulder stability / chest opening exercises - I.e. 20-40 mins twice a week.
What sort of Shoulder Stability exercises worked best for you and how long did it take for you to notice the effects?
With cramps etc. I would also have a blood test to check minerals levels.
Any idea what sort of deficiency would cause cramps?
Cheers guys
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As for the rest, the pins and numbness definitely seem ulnar nerve impingment. As said, I noticed great improvement from sleeping with straight arms, instead of with bent elbows with all my weight on them.
Ulna nerve involvement wouldn't affect your thumb.
Seriously dude, skip the internet diagnosis and get yourself checked out by a professional. Sounds like your symptoms are getting worse (?), if that's the case that means you're further damaging your tissues and is likely to make your rehab slower.
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Yes, thanks, I know that ulnar nerve impingement doesn't involve thumbs. Luke hadn't posted yet about the random numbness.
No one here is giving armchair diagnosis, we are only replying to the original question and other issues that came from that one.
And yes, he must see a specialist.
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Fair enough re: the thumbs, that was just to illustrate a point- it could have been a number of other points out of this thread.
It IS all armchair diagnosis though- without a physical exam (and proper subjective exam for that matter) it can't be anything else.
There's a part of me that hates these threads and I mostly avoid them. I've chipped in partly 'cause the OP has obviously been bothered with this for some time and it clearly isn't settling on its own. IMO (I'm a physio), excepting the dedicated Hallamshire Physio thread, a lot of advice re: musculo-skeletal injury on here merely delays appropriate treatment.
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Do you smoke?
I used to wake up in the night with Dead arms from shoulder down until blood flow would restart, with severe pins and needles., it stopped happening after I quit smoking. I wasn't sure if this was the cure until a friend mentioned he experienced the same thing until he quit.
Also, I damaged my ulnar nerve after going over the bars on my bike and landing hard on my wrist. The back of my left hand went numb for about 18months and is still a little numb compared to the right hand. Doesn't have any effect on the strength of that hand tho.
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Listen, this no laughing matter, and sure not something to diagnose over the internet. See a doctor (trauma specialist should do, they can measure the functions of your nerves (sensory and force).
I've had 2 cases of nerve injury in the last several years, and if I would not have them treated and in one case surgery too, I could have been paralyzed the first time and the second time I would have lost all functionality in my left hand.
First case was a MTB accident where my spine was damaged. A brace for my neck and total rest (and I mean total, no movement for weeks) to heal this was the answert.
Second time was this summer where I was treated badly by the police while being unconscious. This lead to a nerve blocked and damaged in my left arm which made my hand numb in the lower half of the hand and the fingers, and a loss of power in the fingers. After investigation, the nerve only gave a 10% signal through. After surgery and therapy, I have 80-90% of power back. If not treated it would have only deteriorated.
OK, that was the good news. Power returns. The first time the numbness in one shoulder stayed for more than a year, this time I'm looking forward to 2 years, or even the end of my times in my pinky and and two other fingers.
So see a doctor. Maybe you get some good news and it's only some vascular problems causing the numbness which might only kill you over a longer period ... :popcorn:
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Very comprehensive thread.
You really need to get any significant pathology ruled out. You must see a GP
Once that's sorted... Then movement specialist physios, chiros, sports physios et al will help
But... GP first.
Soon
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Sorry for the late reply, thanks for the replies guys. Everyone said to go to the doctors so I went a couple of weeks ago. I wasn't entirely convinced he knew what he was doing but he asked me a few questions about where the pains and numbness were etc. and seemed to think it was Carpel Tunnel. From what I've read up it doesn't seem to completely tally up to the symptoms I have.
He's referred me to a specialist at the hospital for some sort of nerve scan/test that will check for built up pressure to pin point the area which is causing the problem. Anyone ever heard of this? Hopefully that will give me a better idea of what's going wrong.
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Unfortunately GPs have a bad rep for a reason a lot of the time especially for sports related injuries or things that are not cut and dry illness. Hopefully the referral will yield some useful results.
I had quite a bad issue with my forearms and still do to a certain extent but I am pretty sure its just a strange case of tennis elbow that was left without treatment for too long. I took a few years off climbing and then went back into it quite seriously straight away and I think I went too fast.
I spent months treating it with tennis elbow related exercises to no avail and it was slowly getting worse. Some sessions I would get pumped early on and that would be it, I would have to end the session early because the pump just wouldn't leave the arm. Occasionally if I took it easy for about an hour and a half it would be ok and I could climb without issue but that was very rare and only if I built up to it super slowly.
I eventually went to the physio who seemed to think it was tennis elbow too and she spent 40 minutes massaging the outside of my forearm with a lot of malice. There was a mass of built up knotted muscle there that I assume was seriously restricting bloodflow and stopping my arms from draining properly.
I still have issues with this but its slowly recovering. My stamina is still rubbish and I get super pumped really quickly and don't recover anything like as quickly as others seem to but at least its not going numb all the time and staying pumped for hours after I have climbed.
Have a good feel around your forearms for any knots and lumps or areas of tenderness. If you find any, iron them out. I spend all day typing on a computer which is really bad for your forearms and elbows so I think that has also been a contributory factor.
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I had a electrical impedance test after I dislocated my elbow, and had ulnar nerve problems (kind of similar to the carpal tunnel, but just a different squashed nerve I suppose). They send an electrical current through using electrodes, so it's like getting mild electric shocks in your arm. They found 'some impedance' but not significant to do anything much about. I get pins and needles/numbness sometimes in the outside of that hand, but doing the physio exercises I was given seems to help it.
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I've seen an article recently that describes your symptoms fairly accurately, it basically outlines that the thin, tough covering of the forearm muscles hasn't grown as quickly as the muscle fibres, this causes the symptoms you describe, as the blood flows into the muscles under use the muscle behind to swell, restricting further bloodflow and giving an extremely quick, hard and long lasting pump. If you're anywhere near Sheffield I can lend you the book with the article in, it's by Volker Schoffle, (sp)? Hope this helps, one way or another.
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Whats the cure Giles?
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As I remember, in a worst case, surgery. There's a picture of the authors forearms, one of which has had the surgery and the difference is clear to see. I'll take another look tonight, as my interest has been piqued!
I'd like to point out that my medical training runs as far as a St John ambulance first aid course and a weekend at the climbing injuries symposium, I'm just giving the OP some ideas to take to his doctor!
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Is the book called one move too many? I used to have that before lending it to a mate who was perpetually injured. I just remember that a lot of the stuff in it was pretty grim and graphical.
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That's the one, the pictures you're talking about were all on the projector screen! It's useful reading though, from a prevention point of view as well as cure.
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I've just checked, it's called 'Compartment Syndrome', apparently many doctors would not expect to see it in forearms. Positively diagnosing it also seems to be tricky. Therapy includes, stretching, massage, ice and got and cold showers!
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Yep, that or surgery to open the sheath and relieve the pressure. This is what I thought I might have for a while but the physio discounted it and finding the knots in the muscle and ironing them out seems to have helped. I assume though, as with all injuries it can be a combination of problems as well as varying severities. It may be that you have a mild case of compartment syndrome.
If you read most literature on it online though it points towards surgery to fix it.
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I didn't want to be the bringer of such bad news, I thought maybe the OP might want to hear that from a doctor, if indeed that's what he's suffering from. But yes, surgery seems to be the hot ticket.
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I've heard of that book before, might try and get my hands on it. I don't live near Sheffield unfortunately. Thanks for the offer to lend it though.
I've heard of compartment syndrome and read a bit about it, I'll speak to the specialist about it and see what they say first.
I remember seeing a climbing blog online somewhere in which the person had surgery and never climbed again.
I won't be having surgery even if it's recommended, I'd rather try all other methods for however long over choosing that option.
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When I was researching my forearm issues I heard various stories about people climbing perfectly well after the surgery and others giving it up.
Have a look at: https://www.scribd.com/doc/166814426/One-Move-Too-Many (https://www.scribd.com/doc/166814426/One-Move-Too-Many)
You can get a months subscription for free and download it I think so have a look.
The picture in the book mentions that one of the authors had it and had the surgery and still climbs fine. His forearm is pretty odd but I assume its not a death sentence climbing wise.
Good luck and yeah, make sure you get a proper diagnosis. As it says in the book, they can do a pressure test to see how quickly the pressure reduces after the forearm becomes pumped.
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Thanks, I'll check that link out later.
I forgot to mention I'm also going for a blood test to check mineral levels like Nibs said previously.
One observation I've made is my bouldering performance has never been effected by the forearm tightness/ache. I've always been able to boulder at my limit yet my sport climbing varies considerably.
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I never found issues in my forearms limited my pure strength that much, they simply meant that I fatigued much faster than I should have. Almost all my issues were in my right arm and it was quite noticeable how much quicker that side pumped out and how much slower it recovered from exertion.
Have you given your forearms a good massage looking for any knots near the elbow?
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Bit of an update. I've been fine for awhile due to not doing routes and just bouldering a lot. As I said previously, this tightness never seems to effect my bouldering/power unless It's a long problem/traverse. I've started up on the routes again recently and low and behold the problem is back.
It seems that the problem is that my forearms are just really tight and getting pumped on routes seems to make this worse. I'm guessing that's the reason having long rests between sessions helps me as it gave my muscles chance to relax and ease off?
Few questions, why does muscle tightness occur, is it something that I'm doing wrong/not doing that causes it?
This level of tightness can't be normal as it's boarderline painful to stretch out my forearms at times, is it something that you can actually get rid permanently of by doing lots of stretching/massaging or is it just something I have to put up with?
Any info on muscle tightness would be great.
Can't remember if I mentioned it but my blood test came back normal and I'm still waiting to hear from the hospital about that appointment... Should chase that up really.
Cheers
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I'm no physiologist but...
As far as I understand it if you do any exercise that will develop muscle fibres and grow the muscles it also causes them to shorten which will cause tightness in the muscle unless you stretch it. So I believe it's a good idea to do some stretching, as muscle tightness may not only be causing the circulation issue, but might also be cause other problems like the tennis elbow mentioned.
I always get pumped on longer steep climbs, but never do on boudering or anything around vertical or slabby. I would have thought this is common for most people, it's the relatively longer routes where the problem lies.
I've just had a physio diagnose my tennis elbow as being partially caused by my hunched shoulders and crap posture. Surprise surprise!
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You'll be overgripping cos you're shitting bricks, if people tell you anything else expect to pay them
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climb easier routes, but more of them
£379 please
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If you're not regularly massaging your forearms then I'd start and see if it helps. There's a good vid that shows a simple self-massge and trigger point release, will post it when i get home.
Alternatively, try an armaid. I recently purchased one to see if it would help my tennis elbow which is caused by overtight extensors - it does. You can borrow mine for a few days to try it out.
Lacrosse ball does the same but just a little more finnicky, still £85 cheaper ...
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climb easier routes, but more of them
£379 please
Haha, does that advice come with a warrenty??
I'm no physiologist but...
As far as I understand it if you do any exercise that will develop muscle fibres and grow the muscles it also causes them to shorten which will cause tightness in the muscle unless you stretch it. So I believe it's a good idea to do some stretching, as muscle tightness may not only be causing the circulation issue, but might also be cause other problems like the tennis elbow mentioned.
I always get pumped on longer steep climbs, but never do on boudering or anything around vertical or slabby. I would have thought this is common for most people, it's the relatively longer routes where the problem lies.
I've just had a physio diagnose my tennis elbow as being partially caused by my hunched shoulders and crap posture. Surprise surprise!
I get pumped/cramped on any angle of climb...
I presume that's why light Aerocap helps recovery, increased blood flow etc.
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If you're not regularly massaging your forearms then I'd start and see if it helps. There's a good vid that shows a simple self-massge and trigger point release, will post it when i get home.
Alternatively, try an armaid. I recently purchased one to see if it would help my tennis elbow which is caused by overtight extensors - it does. You can borrow mine for a few days to try it out.
Lacrosse ball does the same but just a little more finnicky, still £85 cheaper ...
Cheers Pete, I'm not regulary massaging just occasionaly but I'm guessing this should be done often to actually have any effect?
I did look at the armaid but was scepticle especially due to the price, if it works I'll have to look into it. I'll have a look at the Lacrosse ball too, not heard of that before.
Sport season is almost here and I need to sort myself out!
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I find it strange to think of climbers not regularly massaging their forearms. I do it every day, all day, especially when I'm doing PE type training- either AeroPow or AnCap. My forearms are sore the next day so I automatically stretch and massage them throughout the day. When I'm doing strength training I don't tend to feel it in my forearms as much, more in the fingers so I massage my fingers constantly. It's like an itch. They feel abnormal so I can't help but do something.
Sometimes its just a light 15-20 seconds of massage randomly throughout the day, and sometimes(when they're really sore) It's a dedicated several minutes on each arm several times during the day.
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I find it strange to think of climbers not regularly massaging their forearms. I do it every day, all day, especially when I'm doing PE type training- either AeroPow or AnCap. My forearms are sore the next day so I automatically stretch and massage them throughout the day. When I'm doing strength training I don't tend to feel it in my forearms as much, more in the fingers so I massage my fingers constantly. It's like an itch. They feel abnormal so I can't help but do something.
Sometimes its just a light 15-20 seconds of massage randomly throughout the day, and sometimes(when they're really sore) It's a dedicated several minutes on each arm several times during the day.
That's a lot more than I expected. I guess it's something that isn't discussed that often so I've never understood the importance/advantages.
Thanks Sasquatch, I'll try and do it often and see if there's a difference.
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It's an unconscious action for me at this point. When I'm reading the forum, I'll be doing massaging them, walking down the hallway at work I massage them, Watching TV, climbing videos, etc. Just throughout the day. Even driving, I'll have one hand on the wheel, and the other massaging the one on the wheel. All of this is just light massage and constant stretching. Then if they're particularly sore, I'll do dedicated time to it.
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I do the same as Sasq out of habit. Your forearm muscles are your workhorses - like a runner's quads and hamstrings. Of course you need to massage them if they're overtight! Might be a further cause that needs ironing out but first step should be to give the muscles some loving.
When I started getting tennis elbow from weighted pullups/lots of computer work, the usual absent-minded gentle massaging wasn't doing the trick. So I purchased a lacrosse ball and really dug into the forearm extensor muscles, which were fairly tight and sore cf. the other arm. Then I got an armaid - slightly easier to get a deep focused pressure than the lacrosse ball in that you can more easily focus in a sore spot and make very small adjustments to work it out. I'd still recommend a lacrosse ball over an armaid on cost.
Here's that vid for self-massage, it shows massaging the extensors (outer forearm) for tennis elbow. Might be worth a try for a week to see if it improves. You didn't mention whether it's inner or outer forearm that's over-tight.
Self-massage for tennis elbow (outer elbow pain) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_70oOs9dkwE#ws)
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Cheers both! Yeah I forgot to mention it's the inner forearm. After doing some deep massaging I've pin pointed exactly where it hurts. It's a muscle that runs down the inside of my forearm parallel with my bone, it's painful to press right the way along. From a quick Google I think it's the "Flexor Carpi Ulnaris" (Picture below). No idea what this muscle is or why it's giving me grief?
The pain/discomfort is equal in both arms and this is the part that always feels the cramp/tightness when on or after doing routes.
During a good dig around in my arm it's very bumpy/gritty and tight in that area and after a deep massage it's pretty tender. I'm going to stick at the massaging and see if anything improves.
Anyone else get paint/discomfort/tightness in this area?
Cheers,
(http://www.teachpe.com/images/muscles/flexor_carpi_ulnaris.jpg)
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Just found this about the Flexor Carpi Ulnaris. It basicly sums up my climbing exactly.
http://www.drjuliansaunders.com/resources/feature_articles/dodgy_elbows/
The two major muscles that flex your fingers and the two muscles that flex your wrist (along with quite a few more) originate from a common tendon, which attaches to your medial epicondyle. Each muscle loads the tendon quite differently. The wrist flexor on the little-finger side, called flexor carpi ulnaris (FCU), is usually the pesky one. For the avid climber this has serious ramifications.
Injury often has a lot to do with technique, and elbows are no exception. There are marked biomechanical differences in how the forearm muscles respond when crimping and open-hand¬ing. The load on the FCU when you are crimping is far greater than when slapping up slopers.
Translation for the afflicted reducing the propensity for (or soon to be)—decrease the injury, climbing open-handed amount you crimp. A lot!
Two groups of people crimp: beginners—because it feels stronger—and those who never grew out of it. Two groups of people crimp significantly less: those who naturally evolved, and those who injured themselves crimping.
Some very specific training can help strengthen the affected tendon (see sidebar). Besides reducing the propensity for injury, climbing open-handed will automatically give you greater endurance (that’s another article on its own). Thus the benefit to your climbing career will be twofold.
I've always crimped everything even when I first started climbing. I started outdoors on crimpy slabby lime routes and never really got into climbing indoors. It's actually a bit of a joke amongst my climbing friends that I literally crimp anything and everything, I've been caught crimping slopers plenty of times...
I guess it must just be 4 years of crimp abuse that's left that muscle in a bit of a state. I may be onto something here, it never occurred to me that favoring the dirty crimps that my mates refused to pull on was actually a bad thing.
Going to read up on some rehab for that area, and try and actually climb open handed for a change.
Just thought I'd write this up in case anyone else had a similar problem.
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Just found this about the Flexor Carpi Ulnaris. It basicly sums up my climbing exactly.
http://www.drjuliansaunders.com/resources/feature_articles/dodgy_elbows/
The two major muscles that flex your fingers and the two muscles that flex your wrist (along with quite a few more) originate from a common tendon, which attaches to your medial epicondyle. Each muscle loads the tendon quite differently. The wrist flexor on the little-finger side, called flexor carpi ulnaris (FCU), is usually the pesky one. For the avid climber this has serious ramifications.
Injury often has a lot to do with technique, and elbows are no exception. There are marked biomechanical differences in how the forearm muscles respond when crimping and open-hand¬ing. The load on the FCU when you are crimping is far greater than when slapping up slopers.
Translation for the afflicted reducing the propensity for (or soon to be)—decrease the injury, climbing open-handed amount you crimp. A lot!
Two groups of people crimp: beginners—because it feels stronger—and those who never grew out of it. Two groups of people crimp significantly less: those who naturally evolved, and those who injured themselves crimping.
Some very specific training can help strengthen the affected tendon (see sidebar). Besides reducing the propensity for injury, climbing open-handed will automatically give you greater endurance (that’s another article on its own). Thus the benefit to your climbing career will be twofold.
I've always crimped everything even when I first started climbing. I started outdoors on crimpy slabby lime routes and never really got into climbing indoors. It's actually a bit of a joke amongst my climbing friends that I literally crimp anything and everything, I've been caught crimping slopers plenty of times...
I guess it must just be 4 years of crimp abuse that's left that muscle in a bit of a state. I may be onto something here, it never occurred to me that favoring the dirty crimps that my mates refused to pull on was actually a bad thing.
Going to read up on some rehab for that area, and try and actually climb open handed for a change.
Just thought I'd write this up in case anyone else had a similar problem.
Nice one! I always say the best thing that ever happened to me was two fairly minor pulley pops when bouldering and yarding on a mono. A real wake-up call to abusing my fingers, it took about a year before my open-hand was as strong as my crimp, and these days I really only pick a grip when it's a angle/surface area contact problem rather than just 'pulling hard'.
J Saunders also wrote a good post somewhere about carpel tunnel in climbers and to watch out for certain types of undercuts/diagonally slanting holds etc.
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and try and actually climb open handed for a change.
Do yourself a favour and don't just try it, try make it a habit to climb open handed as much as possible. Your arms and fingers will thank you.
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I've had vaguely similar issues with my forearms and have been massaging them along with other things but yesterday I was using an armaid to roll our the part of the arm that is always tight and where I feel most of the issues when I read this thread and decided to go all over the forearm.
It seems that even though it doesn't feel painful or like there is any issue there when at rest, the inside edge of my forearm (palm up) near the elbow was super tender to massage. The other arm in the same place was fine so I assume its another place in my forearms that is angry and annoyed.
Basically, I can second the idea of beating the whole forearm up, not just the bits thats feel bad at resting.
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Anyone got any designs for a home made armaid? Old laundry mangle may be excessive, two rolling pins and some bungy cords probably safer.
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Cheers guys, I'll try and open hand as much as possible. Does this also mean if I really have to crimp then half crimp instead or full?
Is it actually possible to open hand a tiny edge...? That might sound like a punter thing to say but I'm so used to crimping everything that the thought of open handing a "crimpy hold" seems alien to me.
It seems that even though it doesn't feel painful or like there is any issue there when at rest, the inside edge of my forearm (palm up) near the elbow was super tender to massage. The other arm in the same place was fine so I assume its another place in my forearms that is angry and annoyed.
The majority of the time when I'm at rest I don't feel any problem with my forearms unless I start proding around, massaging and stretching.
Anyone got any designs for a home made armaid? Old laundry mangle may be excessive, two rolling pins and some bungy cords probably safer.
I've currently resorted to a can of peas of its side on a worktop, roll the forearm on top of it while applying pressure on top with the other hand.
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Cheers guys, I'll try and open hand as much as possible. Does this also mean if I really have to crimp then half crimp instead or full?
Is it actually possible to open hand a tiny edge...? That might sound like a punter thing to say but I'm so used to crimping everything that the thought of open handing a "crimpy hold" seems alien to me.
I always open hand whenever I can, but if you you need to crimp, crimp! I had to go through a relearning process after climbing almost exclusively on crimpy quartzite and sandstone for the early years of my climbing career and once in the habit of open hnaidng, I'm surprised how rarely I have to crimp.
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I've currently resorted to a can of peas of its side on a worktop, roll the forearm on top of it while applying pressure on top with the other hand.
:lol: Let me know next time you're up this way (Llandudno) and I'll leave my armaid in the porch for you to pick up if I'm not in. Can give it a try for a week. A can of peas doesn't work half as well, especially own brand.
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Works better than canapes though.
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I bought a 'Spikey' from the Physio Room and subsequently I was bought a much spikier (and firmer) ball for Christmas off of someone who wasn't put off by the outrageous price of what appears to be a dog toy.
They're both good and for the price a Lacross ball or Spikey (3 sizes available) seem like a good investment as with bodyweight you can get into muscles quite well. Perhaps a foam roller and lying on it in a Randall-esque stretch position might work (I don't have one so I can't comment, this is purely speculative)?
Luke - I used to crimp absolutley everything. I can remember being laughed at by my belayer for shaking out on the Pantomime jug fully crimped. If you don't know this hold it resembles a glued on breeze block and there's no reason to hold it like this. Although I thought that crimping and being relatively strong at the grip was great it really did hold me back and caused me a lot of problems (mainly finger injuries) in the following years.
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Anyone got any designs for a home made armaid? Old laundry mangle may be excessive, two rolling pins and some bungy cords probably safer.
Lacrosse ball and then lie on your arm, or press into it against a wall etc. I used to put my arm on a ball on a desk or floor and then put pretty much all my weight onto it. Gnarly.
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I've currently resorted to a can of peas of its side on a worktop, roll the forearm on top of it while applying pressure on top with the other hand.
:lol: Let me know next time you're up this way (Llandudno) and I'll leave my armaid in the porch for you to pick up if I'm not in. Can give it a try for a week. A can of peas doesn't work half as well, especially own brand.
Cheers Pete, will give you a shout when I'm down your way, possibly this weekend as I'm out.
I bought a 'Spikey' from the Physio Room and subsequently I was bought a much spikier (and firmer) ball for Christmas off of someone who wasn't put off by the outrageous price of what appears to be a dog toy.
They're both good and for the price a Lacross ball or Spikey (3 sizes available) seem like a good investment as with bodyweight you can get into muscles quite well. Perhaps a foam roller and lying on it in a Randall-esque stretch position might work (I don't have one so I can't comment, this is purely speculative)?
I'll look into that, cheers. Does seem like a good investment.
Luke - I used to crimp absolutley everything. I can remember being laughed at by my belayer for shaking out on the Pantomime jug fully crimped. If you don't know this hold it resembles a glued on breeze block and there's no reason to hold it like this. Although I thought that crimping and being relatively strong at the grip was great it really did hold me back and caused me a lot of problems (mainly finger injuries) in the following years.
:lol: That sounds just like me. So have you quit the habit now? If so how did you feel it changed your climbing/injuries?
A question for anyone: When deeply massaging should it hurt? Some of you are saying about applying body weight to balls which sounds really painful! Also, should the area feel tender/worked afterwards?
Cheers
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:lol: That sounds just like me. So have you quit the habit now? If so how did you feel it changed your climbing/injuries?
When you crimp everything, including jugs then everything feels like a jug.
-when I used to think like this what I was missing was actually, everything feels like a bloody crimp!
I have addressed the imbalance to a degree yes, and it has definitely helped. However, I did give myself my worst ever injury* shortly after really targetting the weakness on a BM. Having progressed rapidly whilst deadhanging I thought I was a hero at the tor, catching the crimp on powerhumps/other linkup open (mid 2). I pulled through and felt something rupture in the palm of my hand (this has left a significant lump that has degenerated with Dupytrytens [sp?]).
It has taken a fair number of years to achieve a decent balance between grip types although there's still a weakness. It takes time. I avoid pockets (especially if deadhanging) these days mainly as training the back half of my hand aggravates my contractures.
Without wishing to hijack this thread (I think it's sort of relevant) - does the new MacLeod book offer any new/interesting stuff on finger injuries beyond what is readily available on UKB/the Internetz?
*finger
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I'll let you know when I've read it. Not got beyond the chapter on elbows yet (which revelated little that isn't on UKB / tinternet).
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shortly after really targetting the weakness on a BM. Having progressed rapidly whilst deadhanging
I guess you made fast progress from dedicating open handed specific deadhangs because you previously only crimped?
I should do this really, I've mixed open handing into BM sessions before but mainly do a lot of half crimped stuff. Strangely enough on a fingerboard I'm actually stronger open handed and can add a lot more weight than I can half crimped; yet when I climb my brain just automatically crimps because it feels more secure, when in reality it's probably just a bad habit. In my head it doesn't make sense to open hand something that is in cut...
Without wishing to hijack this thread (I think it's sort of relevant) - does the new MacLeod book offer any new/interesting stuff on finger injuries beyond what is readily available on UKB/the Internetz?
Funnily enough I was actually going to ask this too. Good question.
Cheers
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A question for anyone: When deeply massaging should it hurt? Some of you are saying about applying body weight to balls which sounds really painful! Also, should the area feel tender/worked afterwards?
It's going to hurt if you've got tight forearms yes. As you slacken them off it will get much more comfortable. When I first went to the physio with my finger injuries I was writhing in agony when he was massaging my forearms. When he told me to massage them every day I asked how I'd know if I was hitting the right spot and he cheerfully told me "where it hurts!". 5 months on there's barely even any discomfort.
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Without wishing to hijack this thread (I think it's sort of relevant) - does the new MacLeod book offer any new/interesting stuff on finger injuries beyond what is readily available on UKB/the Internetz?
*finger
Hard to say really I haven't spent a lot of time looking in to Dupytrytens online, the only suggested solutions in Dave Mac's book are:
-Radiotherapy probably have to go private.
-Collagenase injections to destroy the fibrous cord
-Needle aponeurotomy basically stabbing it with a fuck off needle?
I'd probably ask a Doctor before stabbing myself with fuck off needles :D
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I think Paul's asking about finger injuries in general, rather than Dupuytren's specifically.
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A question for anyone: When deeply massaging should it hurt? Some of you are saying about applying body weight to balls which sounds really painful! Also, should the area feel tender/worked afterwards?
It's going to hurt if you've got tight forearms yes. As you slacken them off it will get much more comfortable. When I first went to the physio with my finger injuries I was writhing in agony when he was massaging my forearms. When he told me to massage them every day I asked how I'd know if I was hitting the right spot and he cheerfully told me "where it hurts!". 5 months on there's barely even any discomfort.
:agree: This.
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It's going to hurt if you've got tight forearms yes. As you slacken them off it will get much more comfortable. When I first went to the physio with my finger injuries I was writhing in agony when he was massaging my forearms. When he told me to massage them every day I asked how I'd know if I was hitting the right spot and he cheerfully told me "where it hurts!". 5 months on there's barely even any discomfort.
This is great, thanks.
After going to town on the massaging It seems the most painful part of my arm is the place which is classed as having Golfers Elbow. I got my other half to dig into that area yesterday as I find it difficult inflicting pain on myself... she on the other hand seemed to find it funny!
It was agony, afterwards and today it seems even more sore than before. Does anyone know if this is normal and actually a good thing?
Cheers
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Yes, it's get better. Keep at it. Like a new hard exercise. You get DOMS at first, but then your body adapts.
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Go read that Julian Saunders article you looked at again, and try the stretch for tight Brachioradialis. This really helped me when I thought I had Golfer's Elbow, when in actual fact this was just overtight. His diagram isn't great for shwoing where things are tbh.
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Much appreciated guys, thank you!
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I finally got a letter through about my referral and went for a consultation today (6 months after seeing the GP!) He asked loads of questions moved me around a bit and said exactly what I basically confirmed what I already thought was wrong.
Tight muscles in the forearm are causing nerve impingement which is in turn causing the numbness when I'm sleeping. He said to just carry on with what I'm doing stretching etc. and I've been referred to physio which will apparently take about 2 months...! I've heard I can get free physio through work so I'm going to look into that.
Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why this whole problem effects by sport climbing more than bouldering? My guess is the fact that the short number of moves on boulders don't give the muscles chance to tighten to much and restrict bloodflow? Maybe why I get cramped on routes? All a bit of a guess but it's intriguing.
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Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why this whole problem effects by sport climbing more than bouldering? My guess is the fact that the short number of moves on boulders don't give the muscles chance to tighten to much and restrict bloodflow? Maybe why I get cramped on routes?
Where my money would lie. Do you ever get pumped during the first ten moves on a route? A someone said earlier, you might also be (subconsciously?) gripping harder than you need to when you are on a route compared to bouldering.
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Anyone got any designs for a home made armaid? Old laundry mangle may be excessive, two rolling pins and some bungy cords probably safer.
Any other suggestions on this? I remember seeing an armaid ages ago and thinking 'I can definitely make one of those' but I've never come up with a proper design. I get a lot of pain and tension on the outside of my forearm, the flexor carpi ulnaris I think, and find it difficult to massage with a ball or foam roller because it requires turning the arm in a weird way.
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Anyone got any designs for a home made armaid? Old laundry mangle may be excessive, two rolling pins and some bungy cords probably safer.
the flexor carpi ulnaris I think,
My last few posts above were about this. I'm deep massaging with a golf ball at the moment. It's incredibly painful but I've convinced myself it will help...
Where my money would lie. Do you ever get pumped during the first ten moves on a route? A someone said earlier, you might also be (subconsciously?) gripping harder than you need to when you are on a route compared to bouldering.
I'm pumped after about 5 moves... I get pretty pumped on warm ups even if I make a conscious effort not to over grip. I probably do over grip on harder stuff though, I'm out later this evening so I'm going to analyse what I do out of habit a bit more, and try and loosen my grip as much as possible.
I don't think I've ever redpointed something with ease, It's always a fight against the pump/cramp irrelevant of grade. My mates often find it funny that my forearms look like they are about to explode after a hard (for me) route.
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I'm the opposite, when I get pumped my forearms feel like bricks, but look completely normal. I never seem to have developed the enormous pumped out veins like other people do.
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Anyone got any designs for a home made armaid? Old laundry mangle may be excessive, two rolling pins and some bungy cords probably safer.
the flexor carpi ulnaris I think,
My last few posts above were about this. I'm deep massaging with a golf ball at the moment. It's incredibly painful but I've convinced myself it will help...
Right thanks, I misunderstood, I thought you're problem was with palm up side of forearm.
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Anyone got any designs for a home made armaid? Old laundry mangle may be excessive, two rolling pins and some bungy cords probably safer.
the flexor carpi ulnaris I think,
My last few posts above were about this. I'm deep massaging with a golf ball at the moment. It's incredibly painful but I've convinced myself it will help...
Where my money would lie. Do you ever get pumped during the first ten moves on a route? A someone said earlier, you might also be (subconsciously?) gripping harder than you need to when you are on a route compared to bouldering.
I'm pumped after about 5 moves... I get pretty pumped on warm ups even if I make a conscious effort not to over grip. I probably do over grip on harder stuff though, I'm out later this evening so I'm going to analyse what I do out of habit a bit more, and try and loosen my grip as much as possible.
I don't think I've ever redpointed something with ease, It's always a fight against the pump/cramp irrelevant of grade. My mates often find it funny that my forearms look like they are about to explode after a hard (for me) route.
Maybe try some endurance (30+ reps) reverse curls and hammer curls. See how your recuperation from them goes, and see over a training period, if you make improvements.
What I'm proposing here is to isolate the forearms with some weights and see what works and what not. With climbing you're always stabilizing some moves more than others with shoulder/chest/triceps/biceps. Just an idea.
(The idea comes from my rotator cuff injury, I had no problems with pulling weights, but had a lot with pushing weights. Although I had no strict pulling problems, when I was climbing I had alot of problems with pain in the rotaror cuff, which was the key to finding exercises which help me to stay in shape, excluding as much involvement of the rotaror cuff. That is issue we try to resolve now with mobility/electrostimul/cortisone/rest.)
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To add some more suggestions into the pot of suggestions..
Have you questioned why you have a problem with tight muscles? Deep-breathing exercises, meditation and various other relaxation techniques might aid in reducing overall muscle tension. Combined with a conscious effort to relax grip on climbs and a stretching/massaging regime it might do the trick.
Are you anxious about falling - have you done a bunch of falling practice and become relaxed with being on the lead?
If nothing else helps if it were me I'd be tempted to do a little controlled experiment by taking a small amount of muscle relaxant (you'll have to convince a doc to give you some) and then trying a route to see if there's less muscle cramp.
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To add some more suggestions into the pot of suggestions..
Have you questioned why you have a problem with tight muscles? Deep-breathing exercises, meditation and various other relaxation techniques might aid in reducing overall muscle tension. Combined with a conscious effort to relax grip on climbs and a stretching/massaging regime it might do the trick.
Are you anxious about falling - have you done a bunch of falling practice and become relaxed with being on the lead?
If nothing else helps if it were me I'd be tempted to do a little controlled experiment by taking a small amount of muscle relaxant (you'll have to convince a doc to give you some) and then trying a route to see if there's less muscle cramp.
Cheers Pete (Still trying to find sometime to call over to yours to borrow the armaid, I was on the Orme yesterday eve but it was a bit of a rushed session.)
I'll look into some deep-breathing, meditation stuff but I've always been a bit skeptical about that sort of thing?
I was bolt-to-bolting yesterday eve and made a conscious effort not to over grip and it didn't seem to make a difference doing short sequences (I still get a bit cramped) but it's something I could see would help if doing a route as a whole. I don't use straight arms enough either and often find myself trying to shake out with one arm bent. I think I need to convince myself that I can actually still hold on if my arms are straight as it feels less secure to me.
I've never had a problem with falling off, the thought is never in my mind and I preach the getting used to falling off thing to friends. I'll often find myself taking a whipper trying to fight on a route.
In what scenarios are muscle relaxants usually used for? Not sure what reasons I'd give the doc for wanting it?
Cheers
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In what scenarios are muscle relaxants usually used for? Not sure what reasons I'd give the doc for wanting it?
Rectal probes :)
I reckon your tight arms, circulation issues, getting pumped and crimping everything are all a viscious circle.
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I reckon your tight arms, circulation issues, getting pumped and crimping everything are all a viscious circle.
Or a viscous triangle?
The muscle relaxant thing isn't really a serious suggestion unless absolutely everythign else you try doesn't work - don't go to the doc and ask for some becasue you're pumping out on routes ;D
I was just thinking, out of curiosity, that it would be interesting to see if a small dose would make any difference to forearm pump / tendency toward overgripping.
Ref deep breathing - not much about forcing oxygen into your circulatory system to be skeptical about - it's what Ondra (amongst others) does. Looks like he's deliberately and forcefully inhaling and exhaling while resting, as well as through hard moves. Think I've read him saying something to that effect. Certainly sounds like a racehorse when he's on the rock.
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I've a mate who can sort you out with a couple of jellies...
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Chemists ::)
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If Luke had a whiff of poppers to relax his muscles before setting off, he'd have a bit more to worry about than forearm pump. Just seeing the bolts would be tough enough. :punk:
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Luke are you on fb? If so look up TCA climbing shop, they've currently got a comp on to win an armaid - think you just like and share the pic.
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Haha, have I accidently unearthed the black market of climbing here?
Ref deep breathing - not much about forcing oxygen into your circulatory system to be skeptical about - it's what Ondra (amongst others) does. Looks like he's deliberately and forcefully inhaling and exhaling while resting, as well as through hard moves. Think I've read him saying something to that effect. Certainly sounds like a racehorse when he's on the rock.
I meant I was more skeptical about the meditation thing in saying that I've never actually tried it!
The breathing thing works though but I almost always forget to do the deep style breathing, I can think of times I have, usually on wrong routes where it's got me through some moves by the skin of my teeth!
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Bit of an update on this, I went to physio on the NHS last year and she thought the tight forearm, numb arms/hands thing was to do with my back being tight.
Fast forward 2 months of physio and it made no difference and she admitted she didn't have a clue what was wrong with me and sent me back to the physio referral bloke. Bloke then said I should go for a nerve conduction test.
Fast forward 6 months (love the NHS) and I had my nerve conduction test yesterday.
He said I have nerve compression in both wrists and that I should get cortisone injections in both my wrists, his english wasn't great and I tried to ask about alternatives and what was actually wrong but didn't get anywhere and he then suggested surgery as an alternative.
They're both red flags for me that I would want to avoid if possible. The problem I have has never got worse but has never got better either. I'm keen to explore alternatives to these as I haven't had chance to yet after pin-pointing my wrists are the problem.
I've got physio tomorrow in work so hopefully they'll be able to help.
Does anyone know if wrist nerve compression can be completely resolved without injections or surgery? Using physio and some self discipline/determination to sort it out given the fact that my case isn't really bad and I'm not in loads of pain or anything?
The last thing I want is to be cut open!
Cheers
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Sorry to hear that buddy! I will do a scour of the internet tonight, I don't remember seeing anything in Macleods book about nerve compression of the wrist though I could be wrong.
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I'm assuming your nerve conduction studies showed that the conduction velocity decreased at the location of the carpal tunnel (junction between wrist and palm of hand)?
The other common point of median nerve entrapment is further up the arm at the pronator teres - this is much less common, but the fact you have discomfort in forearms as well as hand is slightly confusing.
So it sounds like you might have carpal tunnel syndrome.
The definitive treatment is a carpal release - it's a simple procedure, taking around 15mins, done under local anaesthetic. I've helped perform them before.
Full recovery takes around 6-8 weeks (longer if diabetic/smoker etc).
Physio is ineffective for this condition.
wrist splints offer temporary relief
Cortisone helps confirm the diagnosis by providing a symptom-free window.
Important: Generally you will need to undergo this surgical procedure BEFORE you develop a fixed sensory deficit (constant numbness/pins and needles) or any muscle weakness for it to be helpful.
If have any doubt about the diagnosis, I would recommend seeing Dr Thing at Pure Sports Medicine who specialises in upper limb problems including climbing injuries. Take the report from your nerve conduction studies.
He can help you exclude other less likely causes, such as an exertional compartment syndrome (it's possible to have more than one problem in a forearm at the same time and you want to be absolutely sure of the diagnosis before having surgery. I've seen many carpal tunnel releases which were ineffective because the problem was actually located further up the arm/in the neck).
Good luck getting it sorted.
DM me if you have any questions.
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Also if you'd be kind enough to complete the anatomy survey I posted today I'd really appreciate it :yes:
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Thanks Paul, The doctor just said I had compressed nerves in my wrist. He didn't go into detail or speak great English, I'm guessing I'll have to speak to the muscular skeletal bloke who referred me in the first place to get further info.
What I have seems to point to Carpal Tunnel, from your post you make it sound like the only option is to have surgery? Is it not possible to naturally somehow sort it out?
I have very little faith in the NHS and absolutely no money to go private so I'm jubious about having surgery on something I'm not 100% I have.
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I agree - essential to get a firm diagnosis before having surgery!
Sports doctors aren't available on the NHS (well there are about 2 in whole country) so try and get yourself a referral to an NHS hand surgeon.
As you have fairly severe, persistent symptoms and have changes detectable on NCS then it is unlikely to settle without surgery.
If you start to the fixed sensory loss I mentioned or weakness/muscle wasting around base of thumb then I would consider surgery fairly urgently - otherwise you could leave it a bit longer/try other things first if you wanted. I share your reluctance to go under the knife!
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You probably looked at this already but issues with super tight scalene (sp) can sometimes manifest the same symptoms as carpal. They're ate some videos online for how to release/ stretch them, so you'd know pretty quickly cos you'll either get some relief or no change at all. I had issues with this.
I know plenty people that have been helped out by the odd Cortisone injection, but that was for shoulders. I don't think that having them once should be too terrifying a prospect.
Good luck. Don't get to distracted by my suggestion. I got relief after about 10 minutes of stretching my neck in weird ways, so knew it wasn't carpal in that case.
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Sports doctors aren't available on the NHS (well there are about 2 in whole country) so try and get yourself a referral to an NHS hand surgeon.
I can immediately think of four in London
RNOH (https://www.rnoh.nhs.uk/health-professionals/consultants/dr-roger-wolman)
Mile End (http://www.bartshealth.nhs.uk/our-services/services-a-z/s/sports-and-exercise-medicine/for-clinicians/)
UCL (http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/ourservices/ourhospitals/uch/ISEH/Pages/Home.aspx)
The Homerton (http://www.homertonphysioandsports.com/)
Luke, what you describe didn't immediately shout 'carpal tunnel' to me, which usually features hand and finger symptoms (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Carpal-tunnel-syndrome/Pages/Whatisit.aspx). However, your Doctor has had the benefit of examining you and the NCS results so you should go with what they think. Discuss the different treatment options and the NCS findings with your physio. It's very reasonable to be cautious about surgery.
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Cheers all,
My problem seems to be that no one is even that sure what's wrong with me every time I see them. It'll probably be a long wait before I even get an appointment to review my NCS with the muscular skeletal physio guy.
My symptoms are bizzare in that they come and go, sometimes it's worse than others and sometimes I forget I have anything wrong at all. I have weeks where I don't wake at night because of numbness and then the odd time where I do.
Maybe I'm wrong but I've always thought surgery was a last resort when things got real bad, and I don't feel it's THAT bad yet.
What makes it worse and what probably makes it hard to diagnose what's wrong with me is that my posture is also rubbish and I get aching shoulders and neck which I've also read can cause CTS type symptoms. Also, on the odd occasion where I do wake in the night due to numbess sometimes it's the thumb, index and middle finger that's numb and other times it's the ring and little fingers, which are 2 differnent nerves being compressed aren't they? (Median and Ulnar).
The main thing I've noticed in the day lately is the inside of my thumbs in the palm are constantly aching and anything that involves pinching is difficult, I was sawing something the other day with a hacksaw and had to stop after about 30 seconds as that area cramps up, same with gripping a toothbrush!
I don't actually get any pain in the wrists at all, the only ache I can feel if I prod around is on the inside of my forearms about a few inches up from my wrist mainly near my ulnar, this is the same in both arms.
I saw the physio in work last Thursday and she assesed and identified my ulnar nerve is irritated on both arms and Carpal Tunnel tests didn't really show much up other than slightly in the left hand. I've also got golfers elbow on my right arm too which isn't helping with tightness in my forearm. She gave me some stretches to do for 2 weeks before I see her again, in which time she said if the stretches are going to work they should of worked by then.
I just can't face having surgery and recovery taking months only to find it's the wrong thing.
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Cheers all,
My problem seems to be that no one is even that sure what's wrong with me every time I see them. It'll probably be a long wait before I even get an appointment to review my NCS with the muscular skeletal physio guy.
My symptoms are bizzare in that they come and go, sometimes it's worse than others and sometimes I forget I have anything wrong at all. I have weeks where I don't wake at night because of numbness and then the odd time where I do.
Maybe I'm wrong but I've always thought surgery was a last resort when things got real bad, and I don't feel it's THAT bad yet.
What makes it worse and what probably makes it hard to diagnose what's wrong with me is that my posture is also rubbish and I get aching shoulders and neck which I've also read can cause CTS type symptoms. Also, on the odd occasion where I do wake in the night due to numbess sometimes it's the thumb, index and middle finger that's numb and other times it's the ring and little fingers, which are 2 differnent nerves being compressed aren't they? (Median and Ulnar).
The main thing I've noticed in the day lately is the inside of my thumbs in the palm are constantly aching and anything that involves pinching is difficult, I was sawing something the other day with a hacksaw and had to stop after about 30 seconds as that area cramps up, same with gripping a toothbrush!
I don't actually get any pain in the wrists at all, the only ache I can feel if I prod around is on the inside of my forearms about a few inches up from my wrist mainly near my ulnar, this is the same in both arms.
I saw the physio in work last Thursday and she assesed and identified my ulnar nerve is irritated on both arms and Carpal Tunnel tests didn't really show much up other than slightly in the left hand. I've also got golfers elbow on my right arm too which isn't helping with tightness in my forearm. She gave me some stretches to do for 2 weeks before I see her again, in which time she said if the stretches are going to work they should of worked by then.
I just can't face having surgery and recovery taking months only to find it's the wrong thing.
Your symptoms ( especially sawing/ pinching ) are precisely what I was getting. On bad days I can't tear wrappers open.
Seriously, try stretching those pesky scalenes
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Seriously, try stretching those pesky scalenes
Thanks, I'll try it out.
The Muscular Skeletal Team at the hospital have received my results back from the Never Conduction Study and I have an appointment to discuss the results with them on Friday.
Can anyone suggest what I can ask them that will be helpful? I don't want to miss anything out.
Should they be able to provide me with a copy of the results?
Cheers