UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Will Hunt on September 26, 2020, 07:38:36 pm
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I'm a Cattellite which means I revere the prophet Danny C who brings glad tidings of The G. Danny teaches us that "believing in G is an act of faith. Believing in G enriches people's lives".
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I'm a Cattellite which means I revere the prophet Danny C who brings glad tidings of The G. Danny teaches us that "believing in G is an act of faith. Believing in G enriches people's lives".
Can’t wait to tell the LittleCunt about all this if I ever speak to him again...
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Good to see from the comments that there’s at least one disciple of the G left!
So Aidan basically did all of his projects in around a week? That’s so cool. I wonder if having people around to try them with rather than climbing on his own helped!
Such a good feeling when you're riding the wave!
RE John Kettle's comment; it's really not true that no one has raised their doubts with G. Shark did just that in his interview! And all he came back with was vague and completely unconvincing explanations! I'd much rather celebrate truly genuine monsters like Aidan.
Would have said that on the Insta post but don't want to make the post into a slanging match.
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Was his comment serious? I had presumed it was a piss take.
I try not to get involved in the gaskins thing and try to believe him but things like this make it difficult.
It would have been cutting edge at the time.
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My comment on Aidans' post wasn't a piss take!
I don't know either way whether Mr G is telling porkies, but I get the distinct impression he has no idea anyone doubts his credibility. When he was openly accused of lying by Marcus Bock, he strenuously defended himself. If someone pointed him to some of the accusations cast on UKB, I expect he would:
a) be very upset
b)respond
Whether his response changed anyones' opinion is another matter.
It's the idea that you can be accused and convicted behind your back (writing off your entire climbing career) without ever knowing which really irks me. People should always be given the opportunity to state their case in my view.
I care more about that, than which way this particular case swings.
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I am not getting involved either way as I have always been more in the innocent until proven guilty camp.
I don’t agree with you saying he has no idea about the doubts though. He must live in the smallest of bubbles for that to be true.
Not for this tread anyway and not worth it’s own. History will sort it out.
Effort aiden, looks a great addition and hilarious that he’s given it 8B+ but only that grade for 8C strong climbers.
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He must live in the smallest of bubbles for that to be true.
:agree:
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innocent until proven guilty
This is tricky in climbing since you can't prove someone hasn't climbed something. You can only express your doubt and ask for reassurances. Perhaps for them to show you the moves/holds. Eyewitnesses etc. That's why trust is so important.
Edit - amazing effort by Aidan. I can't even imagine being this strong. Looking forward to the video(s).
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Let's consider it a civil case and "proof" can be on the balance of probabilities... on which Gaskins seems :-\ by all I've heard
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It is not that easy to confront people when you doubt their ascents. I have done it once face-to-face with a climber that I did not know very well (but we had quite a lot of friends in common). It was extremely uncomfortable, for me at least.
A friend of mine told me that he did a route which I had good reasons to believe that he did not climb. I just let it slip, which is what I think that most people would do.
This asymmetric power in a situation where proof is hard to ask for is what makes certain sports like golf ask for signed scorecards as a default, every time.
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It's the idea that you can be accused and convicted behind your back (writing off your entire climbing career) without ever knowing which really irks me. People should always be given the opportunity to state their case in my view.
I care more about that, than which way this particular case swings.
JG's output has been publicly doubted and dissected in minute detail on and off line for literally decades now. This includes questions directed to John in a UKB video interview. At this point there is absolutely nothing 'behind your back' about this. On that front I don't think you need to be irked. And this in turn represents decades of opportunity for John to 'state his case'. At what point, having had 'the opportunity to state their case' does the lack of said case start to speak for itself?
After this long people will draw their own conclusions, and when these represent a consensus the community will treat these as the mostly likely version of events. This includes treating claimed ascents as invalid when this seems more likely than not.
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I'm a Cattellite which means I revere the prophet Danny C who brings glad tidings of The G. Danny teaches us that "believing in G is an act of faith. Believing in G enriches people's lives".
Can’t wait to tell the LittleCunt about all this if I ever speak to him again...
What happened?
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I'm a Cattellite which means I revere the prophet Danny C who brings glad tidings of The G. Danny teaches us that "believing in G is an act of faith. Believing in G enriches people's lives".
Can’t wait to tell the LittleCunt about all this if I ever speak to him again...
What happened?
I'm guessing a succession of three hour late arrivals to the crag threw Doyle over the edge....?!
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I think we should just drop it now as climbing has moved on an his problems are not the highest graded things in the country any more.
To my knowledge no one is going to put any effort into his hard stuff as its pretty shit so just leave them in the history books at the grade he gave them and they will become irrelevant when the grades have moved on another notch in 10 years. Only if he had stolen some future 4* classic lines from the next gen would it matter.
Bit like the is Hubble 8c+ or 9a thing, does not matter now we are climbing 9c.
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I'm a Cattellite which means I revere the prophet Danny C who brings glad tidings of The G. Danny teaches us that "believing in G is an act of faith. Believing in G enriches people's lives".
Can’t wait to tell the LittleCunt about all this if I ever speak to him again...
What happened?
I'm guessing a succession of three hour late arrivals to the crag threw Doyle over the edge....?!
I was thinking just the same.
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I'm a Cattellite which means I revere the prophet Danny C who brings glad tidings of The G. Danny teaches us that "believing in G is an act of faith. Believing in G enriches people's lives".
Can’t wait to tell the LittleCunt about all this if I ever speak to him again...
What happened?
I'm guessing a succession of three hour late arrivals to the crag threw Doyle over the edge....?!
I was thinking just the same.
He might have left his phone at a crag again?
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I'm a Cattellite which means I revere the prophet Danny C who brings glad tidings of The G. Danny teaches us that "believing in G is an act of faith. Believing in G enriches people's lives".
Can’t wait to tell the LittleCunt about all this if I ever speak to him again...
What happened?
I'm guessing a succession of three hour late arrivals to the crag threw Doyle over the edge....?!
I was thinking just the same.
He might have left his phone at a crag again?
Spoke to his old man, DrHowardCattell :wub:. Said he’s at work. I awoke 10 minutes later with some concerned passers standing over me trying to bring me round.
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Bit like the is Hubble 8c+ or 9a thing, does not matter now we are climbing 9c.
Of course it matters. Especially Hubble as it would be the first in the world.
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If no grades under 9c matter the world might aswell leave Megos and Ondra to it . :lets_do_it_wild:
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Bit like the is Hubble 8c+ or 9a thing, does not matter now we are climbing 9c.
Of course it matters. Especially Hubble as it would be the first in the world.
It really doesn't
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That would be one strange looking love child! Mondra?
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Bit like the is Hubble 8c+ or 9a thing, does not matter now we are climbing 9c.
Of course it matters. Especially Hubble as it would be the first in the world.
It really doesn't
History doesn't matter? What a half witted thing to suggest. Obviously it's not groundbreaking now but it was groundbreaking then. There's no logic at all to saying it's irrelevant because people piss that grade now. I might warm up on VDiff on a good day. but it still matters when Puttrell was first scratching up them.
Edit, it's so half witted I now wonder whether it's a wind-up, in which case I'm a sucker, apologies.
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It was a wind up.
But in the grand scheme of things what was the first 9a AD or Hubble isn’t important.
What was the 1st 8a or 7c or 7a. I have no idea.
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It was a wind up.
But in the grand scheme of things what was the first 9a AD or Hubble isn’t important.
What was the 1st 8a or 7c or 7a. I have no idea.
8a - Grand Illusion
7c - Chasin the Train?
7a - dunno
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I did know the 8a one but like Hubble it may now be upgraded.
Think your about 5-6 years out on the 7c.
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Was Psycho Roof, Colorado. First 7a in the Dolomites in the 60s. *off topic*
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First 7a in the Dolomites in the 60s. *off topic*
I think it could be Pumprisse, '77 ruote by Reinhard Karl, VIII+ 7a.
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VIII+ = 7a? :lol:
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Good article about first routes of the grade here (http://stara.emontana.cz/climbing-milestones-from-6a-to-9c/). Reckons Reinhold Messner’s Pilastro do Mezzo was the first 7a in 1968.
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Great article thanks.
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VIII+ = 7a? :lol:
https://www.guidedolomiti.com/en/rock-climbing-grades/
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Good split Shark it was sullying Aidens thread.
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I think we should just drop it now as climbing has moved on an his problems are not the highest graded things in the country any more.
To my knowledge no one is going to put any effort into his hard stuff as its pretty shit so just leave them in the history books at the grade he gave them and they will become irrelevant when the grades have moved on another notch in 10 years. Only if he had stolen some future 4* classic lines from the next gen would it matter.
Problem I have with it is that it takes away from the people like Aidan coming through who are genuinely good enough for these hard things. For example John K you seem more worried about denying Gaskins his claim in the history books for the Karma of Trees sitter, whereas I'm more worried that doing that denies Aidan his place; which arguably is much, much more deserved and for which definitive proof and justification exists.
Gaskins does also have his name, currently, against some big lines. Moment of Clarity for one. Various things in Lancs quarries I think as well.
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Good split Shark it was sullying Aidens thread.
Yes
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I think we should just drop it now as climbing has moved on an his problems are not the highest graded things in the country any more.
But they’re still the hardest bits of claimed climbing, whatever grade was first given to them. It’s pretty hard to contextualise any top end bouldering without forming a view on whether you think his hardest problems have actually been climbed.
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It will never be proven though so a total waste of time. John says he did them, some dont believe him but dont have evidence to prove other wise so we have to go with John.
I have never even seen any of the problems in the flesh so cant comment about them but from what i hear they are mostly shit so not likely anyone will even try them. just leave them to fade into the history books at the grade he gave them unless they get repeated. Now Aiden has done something graded harder we can move on.
So we have a choice either leave them all in at the grades suggested and agree he did them or write them out of the history books which means we are saying he lied. I dont think doing the later would be right so we have to accept the former and move on.
The list someone added above is a nice read but could be said full of errors.
In line with recent upgrades and omissions.
1st 8a+ Requiem - dumbarton
1st 8c+ Liquid ambar
1st 9a hubble
1st 9b Akira or if you really dont want that one chillam balam.
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VIII+ = 7a? :lol:
https://www.guidedolomiti.com/en/rock-climbing-grades/
Fair. Grades vary a lot by area I guess, I think in my locale grade VIII's are ~7a and VIII+'s are ~7a+. Conversly I dont think many/any IX+'s are considered 8a.
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It will never be proven though so a total waste of time. John says he did them, some dont believe him but dont have evidence to prove other wise so we have to go with John.
You're right that all this doesn't matter... Because I climbed the world's first 10a route and 9B last week!
Sorry, no vid, I accidentally reversed the camera on my phone (twice, would you believe!), so it's just a video of the inside of my shoe and some shouting. Seriously, I'm the world's best climber and nothing you or anyone else does or says can prove otherwise.
Or something like that.
You get my point right...
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That really does not prove he didn't do it though.
And to be fair to john it was not common place to have a camera with you then.
I think now a days you should be able to ask for proof and i dont think there has been any cases recently.
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Gav, I think this is a bit of a cop out argument. If he did some of the stuff he's claimed then he was 20 years ahead of everyone else in the UK in terms of the stuff he was putting up and one of the best climbers in the world at the time. As much as anything in climbing 'matters', it'd be nice if the historical record here was somewhat accurate. It does a disservice to everyone else who was playing fairly.
Regarding proof, obviously no one other than John can say for sure, but the balance of evidence seems pretty strongly in favour of him having not done the harder lines he has claimed. Dan V has put plenty of effort in to trying to work out where these lines go, how they're climbed etc. (including trips to the crag with the man himself) and my interpretation of it all is that the lines claimed essentially don't exist. To use shadowplay as an example, it's stretching credibility to believe he spent tens of sessions on it but couldn't offer anything in the way of a sequence and that solid 8B+ climbers can't even pull on to the supposed holds.
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The first 9b in the world was Jumbo Love at Clark Mountain. There is simply not enough proof for any preceding accent of 9b, and Chilam Balam is not really 9b anyway (according to every single endurance specialist that has repeated the route).
Hubble is 9a according to people who have not actually climbed it, and 8c+ to those who have done it, no?
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Gav, I think this is a bit of a cop out argument. If he did some of the stuff he's claimed then he was 20 years ahead of everyone else in the UK in terms of the stuff he was putting up and one of the best climbers in the world at the time. As much as anything in climbing 'matters', it'd be nice if the historical record here was somewhat accurate. It does a disservice to everyone else who was playing fairly.
Regarding proof, obviously no one other than John can say for sure, but the balance of evidence seems pretty strongly in favour of him having not done the harder lines he has claimed. Dan V has put plenty of effort in to trying to work out where these lines go, how they're climbed etc. (including trips to the crag with the man himself) and my interpretation of it all is that the lines claimed essentially don't exist. To use shadowplay as an example, it's stretching credibility to believe he spent tens of sessions on it but couldn't offer anything in the way of a sequence and that solid 8B+ climbers can't even pull on to the supposed holds.
I am not disagreeing with you and have heard it over and over again. I have no idea of whether he did them or not but as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.
Judging by John Kettles comment the general opinion out there is in his favour. Its a shame there is not more clarity but thats where we find ourselves.
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It will never be proven though so a total waste of time. John says he did them, some dont believe him but dont have evidence to prove other wise so we have to go with John.
GME - The point I was making is that your statement, quoted above, ignores the balance of probability argument. You're saying that because the matter can't be conclusively proved John's words have to be taken as historical fact. By that logic, so should mine. Ergo I'm the greatest climber who ever lived.
Clearly the latter is preposterous. Not because you can prove I'm lying, obviously you can't. But you can make an educated guess based on the evidence and draw a conclusion that you are 99.999% certain I didn't climb 9B. Obviously it's not as clear cut as that with JG but by your argument that's irrelevant - you're saying you must take people's word for it, end of.
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as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.
Errmm. No. You can easily come to a fair conclusion based on the balance of the evidence which, in this case, is plentiful and compelling. If you haven't cared to acquaint yourself with that evidence then that's your prerogative.
I, for instance, did both that new Gresh E10 AND the Malham 8c+. You can't prove I didn't so you'll have to accept my word and move on.
Judging by John Kettles comment the general opinion out there is in his favour.
I don't think that's true. I don't think you'd be able to find many people who have followed the whole thing who still think that G did everything he said he did. Nobody is writing off all of it, but it seems fairly clear that he didn't do all he claimed.
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....I have no idea of whether he did them or not but as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.
I agree it's boring, I don't agree that we have to accept any and every claim made (however large and important), disregarding any evidence to the contrary, just because the matter is unprovable. What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?
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I am fully up to speed with the whole thing, have seen most of the discussions, heard most of the arguments, watched sharks video, read Johns comments when challenged (which was really my main argument to JK suggesting John knows nothing about these doubts) , was around at the time, i have even climbed with him. However the fact stands we cant prove he didn't do the things he said.
Either we forget it and move on or erase everything he did that is not satisfactorily witnessed from the books. It just gets tedious going round and round.
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What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?
I don't think we need to say 'probably false', we can state that an ascent was recorded but as the best climbers today have been unable to find any holds it is not widely believed to have happened.
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I for one totally believe all of Bonjoys ascents and think this witch hunt must stop.
Anyone who knows Bonjoy in real life, as I do, will tell you that he's a sound guy with a solid character and I don't believe he'd be able to lie to a goose.
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What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?
I don't think we need to say 'probably false', we can state that an ascent was recorded but as the best climbers today have been unable to find any holds it is not widely believed to have happened.
Any choice of non-definitive language will do.
Thanks Moo. I knew I could count on you.
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What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?
I don't think we need to say 'probably false', we can state that an ascent was recorded but as the best climbers today have been unable to find any holds it is not widely believed to have happened.
Any choice of non-definitive language will do.
Thanks Moo. I knew I could count on you.
Or just dont put them in. Guidebook writers can do what they want i guess its there guide.
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If that accurately reflects the level of scepticism among climbers. I'm not sure it does though. Some ascents seem more likely than others. I doubt guide writers have any wish to either exclude them all (there are some very low grade ones too remember) or start arbitrarily excluding some and not others. The dagger symbols in old guides were pretty handy for expressing uncertainty.
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So we have a choice either leave them all in at the grades suggested and agree he did them or write them out of the history books which means we are saying he lied. I dont think doing the later would be right so we have to accept the former and move on.
Well there's a few things that are written out of/heavily asterisked in the Lake District Bouldering guidebook (as described by carlisle slapper here:https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30355.msg594338.html#msg594338 (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30355.msg594338.html#msg594338)): The Karma of Trees sit isn't mentioned, Atrocity Exhibition is graded 8? with a description of where it 'allegedly' goes. Shadowplay is 'infamous and now broken'.
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I for one totally believe all of Bonjoys ascents and think this witch hunt must stop.
Anyone who knows Bonjoy in real life, as I do, will tell you that he's a sound guy with a solid character and I don't believe he'd be able to lie to a goose.
Yeah, stop hating on the geeze!
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(including trips to the crag with the man himself)
Did that actually happen in the end??
(and do you have any evidence that it happened...?)
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as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.
It's only boring when people use dumb arguments like that ;)
The quoted argument
1) fails if we use "balance of probabilities" as the burden for proof (likely the best option in these scenarios)
and/or
2) becomes absurd (as pointed out by multiple others) if we use something far more rigorous as the burden of proof.
Hubble is 9a according to people who have not actually climbed it, and 8c+ to those who have done it, no?
I think Dawson and Bosi both thought 9a seemed fair, and have done it
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Hubble is 9a according to people who have not actually climbed it, and 8c+ to those who have done it, no?
I think Dawson and Bosi both thought 9a seemed, and have done it
Good knowledge!
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(including trips to the crag with the man himself)
Did that actually happen in the end??
(and do you have any evidence that it happened...?)
I've got a random memory sometimes. Found what popped into my head from the thread Nutty linked above:
We were going to arrange a session in kentmere to sort out shadowplay but it never worked out.
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(including trips to the crag with the man himself)
Did that actually happen in the end??
(and do you have any evidence that it happened...?)
I've got a random memory sometimes. Found what popped into my head from the thread Nutty linked above:
We were going to arrange a session in kentmere to sort out shadowplay but it never worked out.
Good knowledge Iain. Apologies for the misinformation shark.
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Isn't one of the issues with some of the harder things that G claims to have done (or has done :shrug:) is that it ended up compressing the top of the grading scale in the UK. I'm sure Dan (and maybe Ned too) said before he didn't grade stuff 8C (particularly in the Lakes) because it wasn't as hard as G's "8Cs". This actually has a knock on effect that wads may be less likely to visit the UK (apart from the weather) to try our hardest problems since they aren't graded that hard, therefore potentially diminishing the profile of UK bouldering internationally.
But perhaps people don't actually care that much, it's only a grade after all. And we don't get that many visitors anyway.
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Plus the weather is shite.
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I'm sure Dan (and maybe Ned too) said before he didn't grade stuff 8C (particularly in the Lakes) because it wasn't as hard as G's "8Cs".
Correct, he said that explicitly in the "Chasing a spectre" thread which for some reason I was skim-reading last night.
Wads should be visiting the UK, weather aside, for the quality and variety of (non-limestone ofc) bouldering, rather than just > 8C grades :)
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I'm sure that now there's a 10a route and 9b boulder for them to go at they'll be flocking over in droves.
I've actually started producing a line of Wad tour ponchos so they can stay relatively dry while thrashing around looking for our esoteric, finger strength dependent test pieces in the pissing rain. I mean why go to font or Switzerland when you can visit wales ?
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I mean why go to font or Switzerland when you can visit wales ?
Variety and scenery. I've heard the coastal gabbro bouldering in Switzerland is wank and the mountain dolerite solitude in Font is well overrated.
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I'm sure that now there's a 10a route and 9b boulder for them to go at they'll be flocking over in droves.
I've actually started producing a line of Wad tour ponchos so they can stay relatively dry while thrashing around looking for our esoteric, finger strength dependent test pieces in the pissing rain. I mean why go to font or Switzerland when you can visit wales ?
I'm sure Megos is dreaming about his return to Parisella's.
:off topic: but has Das Pumpenhausen Testpiece had a repeat? Also does the UK have any other problems that have been put up by international wads that have yet to seen a repeat?
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I'm sure that now there's a 10a route and 9b boulder for them to go at they'll be flocking over in droves.
I've actually started producing a line of Wad tour ponchos so they can stay relatively dry while thrashing around looking for our esoteric, finger strength dependent test pieces in the pissing rain. I mean why go to font or Switzerland when you can visit wales ?
I'm sure Megos is dreaming about his return to Parisella's.
:off topic: but has Das Pumpenhausen Testpiece had a repeat?
I heard Aidan tried it fairly recently ..... Too hot I expect
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I'm sure that now there's a 10a route and 9b boulder for them to go at they'll be flocking over in droves.
I've actually started producing a line of Wad tour ponchos so they can stay relatively dry while thrashing around looking for our esoteric, finger strength dependent test pieces in the pissing rain. I mean why go to font or Switzerland when you can visit wales ?
I'm sure Megos is dreaming about his return to Parisella's.
:off topic: but has Das Pumpenhausen Testpiece had a repeat? Also does the UK have any other problems that have been put up by international wads that have yet to seen a repeat?
It’s a long one but Mike Psyche repeated Louis Cut in Cave. And Belly of the Beast at Tor is Webb Parsnips creation . None unrepeated afaik
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does the UK have any other problems that have been put up by international wads that have yet to seen a repeat?
Brad Pit sit start?
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does the UK have any other problems that have been put up by international wads that have yet to seen a repeat?
Brad Pit sit start?
MAdams has done that. With the heel finish obvs.
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does the UK have any other problems that have been put up by international wads that have yet to seen a repeat?
Brad Pit sit start?
Didn't Mike Adams do this? Either FA or 2nd ascent.
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FA was Thomas Willenberg, a German bloke who at the time of the 2006 Stanage guide was also the only known person to repeat the stand via the original Myers method too. I hadn’t heard about Mike’s repeat but I’m far from an authority on these things so thought someone might have.
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FA was Thomas Willenberg, a German bloke who at the time of the 2006 Stanage guide was also the only known person to repeat the stand via the original Myers method too. I hadn’t heard about Mike’s repeat but I’m far from an authority on these things so thought someone might have.
He was rather tall apparently.
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Here’s a picture - of TW in action on the SS.
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,574.msg4944.html#msg4944
(Only come around 17 years later... 😀)