. I don’t however think I can go with my ‘just turn up and do some stuff’ approach this time round.Why not?
If it helps I can post a photo of the table on here.Yes please, never seen it and would be interested to.
I have a copy of The Self-Coached and remember thinking this was really good when I read it ages ago. In it there’s a table that shows the level required across different performance areas in order to have a realistic expectation of making a quick redpoint at a certain grade. Interestingly however there’s no explicit mention of fingerboading (looking at the index).
Just to wind JWI up: https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/
Apparently I should be projecting 7A+ boulders, despite the fact I often flash 7A and have flashed 7A+ (outdoors, once), still dining out on that low level achievement 8)
Just to wind JWI up: https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/
Apparently I should be projecting 7A+ boulders, despite the fact I often flash 7A and have flashed 7A+ (outdoors, once), still dining out on that low level achievement 8)
Anyway, here is my opinion for sport climbing benchmarking.
Suppose that you want to be able to redpoint most 8a reasonably quick (about 5 tries or so in any style from cruxy to long stamina plod) then you should be able to:
1. (Lactate treshold test/Endurance) Climb a 7a of 30 moves 10 times with 1 minute rest between the laps
2. (Anaerobic capacity at 80% of max/Strength endurance) Climb a 7b of 30 moves 6 times with 8 min rest between the laps
3. (Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance) Climb an 7c of 30 moves 2 times with 30 min rest between the laps.
Just to wind JWI up: https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/
Apparently I should be projecting 7A+ boulders, despite the fact I often flash 7A and have flashed 7A+ (outdoors, once), still dining out on that low level achievement 8)
Apparently I should be projecting 7C+ despite never having done anything more than 7A+
Think we can agree it is a precise and scientifically unquestionable piece of technology
Anyway, here is my opinion for sport climbing benchmarking.
Suppose that you want to be able to redpoint most 8a reasonably quick (about 5 tries or so in any style from cruxy to long stamina plod) then you should be able to:
1. (Lactate treshold test/Endurance) Climb a 7a of 30 moves 10 times with 1 minute rest between the laps
2. (Anaerobic capacity at 80% of max/Strength endurance) Climb a 7b of 30 moves 6 times with 8 min rest between the laps
3. (Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance) Climb an 7c of 30 moves 2 times with 30 min rest between the laps.
Are these on routes you've already got wired?
Just to wind JWI up: https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/
Apparently I should be projecting 7A+ boulders, despite the fact I often flash 7A and have flashed 7A+ (outdoors, once), still dining out on that low level achievement 8)
Apparently I should be projecting 7C+ despite never having done anything more than 7A+
Think we can agree it is a precise and scientifically unquestionable piece of technology
Can't argue with SCIENCE. We all know you're an overstrong beast just waiting for the moment to strike...
Just to wind JWI up: https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/
Apparently I should be projecting 7A+ boulders, despite the fact I often flash 7A and have flashed 7A+ (outdoors, once), still dining out on that low level achievement 8)
Apparently I should be projecting 7C+ despite never having done anything more than 7A+
Think we can agree it is a precise and scientifically unquestionable piece of technology
I seem to be an outlier going by comments in this forum, but finger strength on a fingerboard has always had a pretty direct correlation with my performance on rock (bouldering). Every 10% I've gained on my max hang has equaled 1 grade, and that's happened like clockwork, across 5 grades over 3 years. But I was clearly finger strength limited, so your mileage will vary.
Just to wind JWI up: https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/
Apparently I should be projecting 7A+ boulders, despite the fact I often flash 7A and have flashed 7A+ (outdoors, once), still dining out on that low level achievement 8)
hahaha
For the OP:
Every time I suggest that people should judge their weakness or strengths on routes instead of a short wooden strip I just get looks of general in-comprehension back...
Anyway, here is my opinion for sport climbing benchmarking.
Suppose that you want to be able to redpoint most 8a reasonably quick (about 5 tries or so in any style from cruxy to long stamina plod) then you should be able to:
1. (Lactate treshold test/Endurance) Climb a 7a of 30 moves 10 times with 1 minute rest between the laps
2. (Anaerobic capacity at 80% of max/Strength endurance) Climb a 7b of 30 moves 6 times with 8 min rest between the laps
3. (Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance) Climb an 7c of 30 moves 2 times with 30 min rest between the laps.
4. (Strength) Do a technically basic 7B of about 5-6 moves in five tries.
Translate for other levels. 8c climbers (quick redpoint) should have the levels 7c/8a/8b/8A
Personally I am disproportionally strong on test 3, spot on on test 1 and 2 and substandard on test 4.
From a previous thread (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,28334.msg556976.html#msg556976), jwi suggested the following for those aiming for a 7c in a day or a sieged 8a:
Strength:
1. You should be able to do all the moves on a sustained six move boulder @ 7A-7B within two sessions
2. You should be able to boulder 6C-7A regardless of length (3 to 8 moves)
Strength endurance:
3. Climb three consecutive boulder problems ~6B with ≤10 s rest between them. Repeat 6 times with 6 min rest.
Threshold:
4. Climb a 30 move 7a-7b 8 times in a row with 6 min rest between them.
Endurance:
5. You should be able to do a 30 move sustained route of grade 6c-7a ten times with one minute rest between the goes. (A single fall on each of the two last laps is OK)
If your are on the strong side (can do 7A boulder of all lengths) it's ok to have less good endurance (ten laps on 6c), and vice versa. Select route accordingly.
Can this be extrapolated down: eg to 7b by knocking a couple of grades off each criteria? My impression is nonspecific benchmarks (eg fingerboard tests) become almost irrelevant at lower grades but climbing ones should still work to some extent.
Although, as a follow up I should note that it won't answer the question posed by the OP; which was along the lines of "what marks do I need to hit, if I want to do grade X". In that case, JWI's benchmarks are much more useful than anything you can do on a fingerboard.
It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?
It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?
However, what I really do like about JWI's proposed benchmarks is that I don't think you actually have to do them. As you've amply demonstrated most people have some feel for how they'd do if they did try them. Maybe they work best as a thought experiment - a well thought out structure to help you assess your strengths and weaknesses without having to benchmark?
Although, as a follow up I should note that it won't answer the question posed by the OP; which was along the lines of "what marks do I need to hit, if I want to do grade X". In that case, JWI's benchmarks are much more useful than anything you can do on a fingerboard.
It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?
Maybe, although the point I was trying to make is that there are possibly better ways to work out why you will fail to climb 8a than doing JWI's tests.
However, what I really do like about JWI's proposed benchmarks is that I don't think you actually have to do them. As you've amply demonstrated most people have some feel for how they'd do if they did try them. Maybe they work best as a thought experiment - a well thought out structure to help you assess your strengths and weaknesses without having to benchmark?
It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an8a7b|+ instead and see if you can do it?
The power-endurance benchmarks are less clear to me and I'll give them a go next time I'm at the wall.
*JWI's test 1 is the clearest indication of this to me. I'd place myself in the "quick 8c" area, but the idea of doing 10 laps of 7c on the minute horrifies me - if we are talking about a 30 move 7c indoors. Outdoors it ranges from plain impossible to something that wouldn't make me break a sweat, depending on the 7c.
Anyway, here is my opinion for sport climbing benchmarking.
Suppose that you want to be able to redpoint most 8a reasonably quick (about 5 tries or so in any style from cruxy to long stamina plod) then you should be able to:
1. (Lactate treshold test/Endurance) Climb a 7a of 30 moves 10 times with 1 minute rest between the laps
2. (Anaerobic capacity at 80% of max/Strength endurance) Climb a 7b of 30 moves 6 times with 8 min rest between the laps
3. (Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance) Climb an 7c of 30 moves 2 times with 30 min rest between the laps.
4. (Strength) Do a technically basic 7B of about 5-6 moves in five tries.
Translate for other levels. 8c climbers (quick redpoint) should have the levels 7c/8a/8b/8A
Personally I am disproportionally strong on test 3, spot on on test 1 and 2 and substandard on test 4.
Firstly, thanks all for the replies, really appreciated and lots to consider :coffee:
It seems I might have got overly excited about The Self-Coached Climber benchmarks i.e. as jwi points out https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649661.html#msg649661, when you actually look at the detail it is hazy in parts (how many moves, amount of rest and so on) and these things matter! It seems too however that people question the usefulness of the Lattice Training approach: how much can actually be extrapolated from something so specific.
I really like this https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649667.html#msg649667 from jwi. I like the straightforwardness and coherence (or at least it seems to correspond to my experience). But, and this maybe goes back to my original point, I'd be confident of achieving all the benchmarks (perhaps with the exception of the 2nd test: 7b x 6 with 8 min rest between laps) but I under-perform on 8a (and redpointing one in 5 tries currently seems well beyond me).
As Stu points out though https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649727.html#msg649727 jwi's suggested benchmarks may have snags too.
jwi: You mention a survey you did and a friend's use of the benchmarks in clinics; how robust are the tests?
I don't really know where to go with this. I could just try something and see what happens, be that testing myself against suggested benchmarks or perhaps going with my feel for what would be worthwhile (fingerboarding, campussing and something anaerobic)? But I think I do better if I have something structured, especially where I see that as building towards route objectives.
I know I don't want a winter of going to the wall and trying hard but being a bit headless :wall:
How would you expect the onsight grade versus "5 goes in any style" quick redpoints grade to compare, out of curiosity?
Perhaps it is a sign that I am not very well rounded, but I look at them and think for me they would be reasonably close given that my onsights are likely to play to my strengths and doing things in any style in circa 5 goes puts focus onto my weaknesses. Thinking back to when I was sport climbing most:
- I have done a number of 7b+s and a handful of 7cs with that few goes, and apparently a 7c+ once too, but certainly at 7c taking more than 5 goes wouldn't feel crazy. So I assume I should call my target grade probably 7b+ (fwiw I have done an 8a and a few 7c+ taking longer over them)
- my max onsight grade is 7b and I had a couple of near misses on 7b+ (i.e. the sort of thing where enough rolls of the dice might net success eventually)
Slightly curious as to whether that is a greater than or average level of un-roundedness, or perhaps whether I am misinterpreting the levels (in particular how much of a weakness still ought to go within 5 goes).
How would you expect the onsight grade versus "5 goes in any style" quick redpoints grade to compare, out of curiosity?
Perhaps it is a sign that I am not very well rounded, but I look at them and think for me they would be reasonably close given that my onsights are likely to play to my strengths and doing things in any style in circa 5 goes puts focus onto my weaknesses. Thinking back to when I was sport climbing most:
- I have done a number of 7b+s and a handful of 7cs with that few goes, and apparently a 7c+ once too, but certainly at 7c taking more than 5 goes wouldn't feel crazy. So I assume I should call my target grade probably 7b+ (fwiw I have done an 8a and a few 7c+ taking longer over them)
- my max onsight grade is 7b and I had a couple of near misses on 7b+ (i.e. the sort of thing where enough rolls of the dice might net success eventually)
Slightly curious as to whether that is a greater than or average level of un-roundedness, or perhaps whether I am misinterpreting the levels (in particular how much of a weakness still ought to go within 5 goes).
Hope you get to where you want to be - maybe catch you at the crag next year,
Dunc
edit: I was going to pm you privately but just noticed Duncan's post.. he's said it spot on. I've always thought on routes you lack the killer instinct to keep fighting and get it done, instead too often giving in if things don't go smoothly. Searching out someone/some resource for training in how to have more of a battling mentality might be useful. Perhaps not going full Ben Cossey (https://youtu.be/H-PsXKda6JU?t=359), but a little bit. You're fit enough, strong enough and technically good enough to *onsight* 8a with not much extra physical conditioning, if you wanted it enough, let alone rp in 5 goes. Said with best intent :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I don't really know where to go with this. [...] I think I do better if I have something structured, especially where I see that as building towards route objectives.
I know I don't want a winter of going to the wall and trying hard but being a bit headless :wall:
If you are well rounded, there’s a lot to be said for a structured but balanced approach.You can have a structured and well planned approach to training even if your goal is simply to move everything up a level. It might be harder to achieve than with a clear weakness, but in many ways it's an easier plan to write as it's a nice "classic" balance of strength (boulder, plus maybe campus/hangs depending on time, injuries and facilities), plus an cap and aero cap with aero pow/an pow coming in later on.
The power-endurance benchmarks are less clear to me and I'll give them a go next time I'm at the wall.
Unsolicited feedback below
Perhaps the "(Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance)" benchmark would capture it, but one thing I've noticed from your sessions on Road Rage is that you hit a bit of a wall where you stop being able to have good working goes relatively quickly. I wonder if working on being able to do more only-just-submaximal boulders in a session would allow you to have more goes in a day, learn a bit more about the movement, and be more likely to succeed as a result.
What are your goals?
What are your strengths and weaknesses?
Would focusing on technique or mental game be more beneficial?
Preferably with a partner who mock them endlessly if they say take our jump off voluntarily:goodidea: Stuff like this is, in my opinion, where you want a climbing partner who will give you shit rather than give you sympathy when you wimp out and say take or drop off while 1ft above the bolt rather than pushing on. (Unless you are really terrified, where a more gradual transition into things might be required)
Preferably with a partner who mock them endlessly if they say take our jump off voluntarily:goodidea: Stuff like this is, in my opinion, where you want a climbing partner who will give you shit rather than give you sympathy when you wimp out and say take or drop off while 1ft above the bolt rather than pushing on. (Unless you are really terrified, where a more gradual transition into things might be required)
All I can say is - don't try to be that guy when belaying your other half of she's not asked for it.........Preferably with a partner who mock them endlessly if they say take our jump off voluntarily:goodidea: Stuff like this is, in my opinion, where you want a climbing partner who will give you shit rather than give you sympathy when you wimp out and say take or drop off while 1ft above the bolt rather than pushing on. (Unless you are really terrified, where a more gradual transition into things might be required)
All I can say is - don't try to be that guy when belaying your other half ........:agree:
Very true... Luckily almost no one pushes harder on the redpoint go than my better half. (Onsights is another thing altogether and I think it would be better if any hard truths came from someone else...)
Struggling to picture how the ‘I told you so’ jig and reel is a contributor to marital harmony tbh. It’s never worked for me.
I think we're both pretty aware that climbing/cycling (or whatever) is fairly superficial compared to the things that do actually lead to martial harmony.
Struggling to picture how the ‘I told you so’ jig and reel is a contributor to marital harmony tbh. It’s never worked for me.
I think we're both pretty aware that climbing/cycling (or whatever) is fairly superficial compared to the things that do actually lead to martial harmony.
All I can say is - don't try to be that guy when belaying your other half ........:agree:
Winner of UKB best advice award November 2021... :whistle:
The classic “weekend warrior”approach of Tue/Thur sessions where you do one exercise for each of strength/ancap/aerocap could suit you well. Especially so if you can split your day and do the strength stuff in the morning?
All I can say is - don't try to be that guy when belaying your other half ........:agree:
Winner of UKB best advice award November 2021... :whistle:
Reminds me of this classic from Gaz Parry on the joy and peril of climbing in a couple
<iframe title="vimeo-player" src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/39794682?h=783ba484c2" width="640" height="424" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> (http://<iframe title="vimeo-player" src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/39794682?h=783ba484c2" width="640" height="424" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>)
If you feel you could do all of JWIs tests then you’re probably quite well rounded as a climber. The value of the tests is in identifying particular weaknesses to work on. If you are well rounded, there’s a lot to be said for a structured but balanced approach.
The classic “weekend warrior”approach of Tue/Thur sessions where you do one exercise for each of strength/ancap/aerocap could suit you well. Especially so if you can split your day and do the strength stuff in the morning?
Having said that, if you can do all those tests you really should be pretty solid on 8a. It might be worth asking the following:
- is the 7B you are thinking of in a similar style to the the 8a cruxes you try?
- do you have performance anxiety issues, like self-sabotaging mistakes on RP?
I don't know you well, but I have seen you climb on odd occasions, and have noticed your UKC logs.
From what I can remember you were technically a good climber but (please dont get offended by this) I'd say it seems like your head is what holds you back. I kind of remember you lacking a bit of killer instinct, as in the ability to fudge a sequence but grit your teeth and try and get through it anyway. Your UKC logbook supports this. I don't know you well enough to say whether you have a fear of falling or not. But it may be another thing worth considering.
Once again, I hope I havent caused any offence and I may well be well off the mark as I don't know you very well at all - and havent seen you climb in years!
Obviously a bit of training won't hurt, but maybe there are lower hanging fruit that could yield way better results?
Hope you get to where you want to be - maybe catch you at the crag next year,
Dunc
I guess if you feel you could do all of jwi's tests but wouldn't class yourself as an 8a climber then there is obviously something else at play here, and so it might be "headless" to be even looking down the physical avenue.
I don't know you well, but I have seen you climb on odd occasions, and have noticed your UKC logs.
From what I can remember you were technically a good climber but (please dont get offended by this) I'd say it seems like your head is what holds you back. I kind of remember you lacking a bit of killer instinct, as in the ability to fudge a sequence but grit your teeth and try and get through it anyway. Your UKC logbook supports this. I don't know you well enough to say whether you have a fear of falling or not. But it may be another thing worth considering.
Once again, I hope I havent caused any offence and I may well be well off the mark as I don't know you very well at all - and havent seen you climb in years!
Obviously a bit of training won't hurt, but maybe there are lower hanging fruit that could yield way better results?
Hope you get to where you want to be - maybe catch you at the crag next year,
Dunc
Keith, I know you somewhat as a climber from climbing with you bits over the years, I know what I'd say if you were to ask other people what holds you back from quickly rp'ing, say, an 8a in 5 goes*. Hint, it isn't fitness or strength!
* I'll share for the cyber Monday low price of £18.99
edit: I was going to pm you privately but just noticed Duncan's post.. he's said it spot on. I've always thought on routes you lack the killer instinct to keep fighting and get it done, instead too often giving in if things don't go smoothly. Searching out someone/some resource for training in how to have more of a battling mentality might be useful. Perhaps not going full Ben Cossey (https://youtu.be/H-PsXKda6JU?t=359), but a little bit. You're fit enough, strong enough and technically good enough to *onsight* 8a with not much extra physical conditioning, if you wanted it enough, let alone rp in 5 goes. Said with best intent :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I read your post as you saying that without a clear physical area of weakness your training will be headless, but there's no reason for that to be the case.
I'd love to get some helpful constructive criticism like this. I actually asked several people for feedback this year, and the only advice I got out of anyone was Fiend suggesting I rack my wires differently
I don't think you've said what your goal are Keith?
I want to be clear: I do have areas of physical weakness - I think everything could be better!
But 2 things are emerging from the thread:
1. Perhaps a useful structure would be something straightforward in line with what you and Stu have suggested (this would address my intention to have something more structured and see progress against interim objectives).
2. It may be more mental than physical and seeking to ensure I consciously engage aggression / fight and tolerate sketching through something could be a big step forward (and one that I think can be trained).
I'd love to get some helpful constructive criticism like this. I actually asked several people for feedback this year, and the only advice I got out of anyone was Fiend suggesting I rack my wires differently
2. It may be more mental than physical and seeking to ensure I consciously engage aggression / fight and tolerate sketching through something could be a big step forward (and one that I think can be trained).
I guess if you feel you could do all of jwi's tests but wouldn't class yourself as an 8a climber then there is obviously something else at play here, and so it might be "headless" to be even looking down the physical avenue.
I don't know you well, but I have seen you climb on odd occasions, and have noticed your UKC logs.
From what I can remember you were technically a good climber but (please dont get offended by this) I'd say it seems like your head is what holds you back. I kind of remember you lacking a bit of killer instinct, as in the ability to fudge a sequence but grit your teeth and try and get through it anyway. Your UKC logbook supports this. I don't know you well enough to say whether you have a fear of falling or not. But it may be another thing worth considering.
Once again, I hope I havent caused any offence and I may well be well off the mark as I don't know you very well at all - and havent seen you climb in years!
Obviously a bit of training won't hurt, but maybe there are lower hanging fruit that could yield way better results?
Hope you get to where you want to be - maybe catch you at the crag next year,
Dunc
Hi Dunc, The feedback is really appreciated and of note is that, while I think we've only been at the same crag / wall on a small number of occasions, you touch on something ('killer instinct') that Pete (who I've climbed with a lot) also echoes https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649819.html#msg649819.
I'm 99.99% certain falling is not an issue for me (it has been but not for a good while), certainly on sport; I give it everything and don't hold back because I might fall.
I think (know?) I have a very strong desire to climb well and in practice this means climbing elegantly (I hasten to add I am not saying I do this, just that it’s a motivation or aspiration). I wonder whether this then gets in the way when something starts to ‘go wrong’ i.e. the first rule is to climb well rather than get it done? How much does it mean that I focus on smoothness when ‘aggression’ is what’s needed?
No offence taken at all, and yes, hopefully we can catch up some time!
:lol:
I've seen you climb once, I think. You were trying to rp Mecca and not clipping the last bolt, I think to instil extra motivation to not fall off.. My advice would be clip all the bolts. That'll be £25.
You don’t go to the Tor enough as I’ve can’t recall seeing you there. And do more deadlifting. Maybe consider climbing slower and giving up yoga. HTH
What you described is exactly as I remember you being. You do climb very well and it is clear you wish to climb a problem/route well, but I have memories of you looking smooth as silk, then one thing goes awry and you stepped off the boulder problem/said take (probably the former as I think I’ve mostly observed you in the cave).
I remember wondering what would of happened had you stuck with it, how much further would you of got?
I know a few people like this. Every single time I belay them they are climbing so well and making it looks so easy I think 'they're going to piss this' and then inexplicably they seem to fall off/let go!
An exact plan depends on what volume of training you are used to, and what time you’ve got available, but if you’re balanced, the idea would be to get a balanced amount of training in each area.Thanks Stu; I have downloaded Alex's PDF (thanks Alex - I will send you a message to sort out payment for this) and will digest this.
For example, I might make myself a plan where I do strength work on Tue and Thursday mornings and an ancap session and aerocap session on both Tue/Thur evening. That might be too much or too little for some, and you might not be able to split the day up… But you could start with Alex’s sport climbing training PDF and balance the amounts in each area and not go far wrong.
When I asked about the specificity of the boulder problem its because it’s quite possible to be able to smash in blobby steep 7B indoors quite easily, but struggle on more vertical techy 7Bs outdoors, and the latter are more similar to UK route cruxes, so you need to think about whether you lack strength in a specific style
A reflection on what's been said so far is that I'm surprised there isn't more information readily available on performance benchmarks. It seems such a basic / obvious thing i.e. if a climber is aiming to climb grade x then they probably need to attain the following levels across strength, power, aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity or whatever.
A reflection on what's been said so far is that I'm surprised there isn't more information readily available on performance benchmarks. It seems such a basic / obvious thing i.e. if a climber is aiming to climb grade x then they probably need to attain the following levels across strength, power, aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity or whatever.
Or maybe performance in climbing is such a multi-faceted thing that what I'm advocating is an over-simplification. Yes, it might be useful but it's actually a only small part of what contributes to progress?
Or maybe performance in climbing is such a multi-faceted thing that what I'm advocating is an over-simplification.Yes, very much so.
Perhaps precise measures like fingerboard tests appeal to those from a hard science background (Stu) whereas messier but more functional tests appeal to quasi-/applied-/hardly at all- scientists like me.
2. It may be more mental than physical and seeking to ensure I consciously engage aggression / fight and tolerate sketching through something could be a big step forward (and one that I think can be trained).
This is an excellent thread.
Re point 2. I'm always thinking about this ;D and was last night, trying to focus on output doing campus pulls on the fingerboard.
A model of bouldering performance might be a better bet for a starter model than one of route performance, given Alex's points above, and it would be interesting to hear if Lattice or their clients find their data driven approach works better for bouldering.
I always get the impression that climbers with a surfeit of "killer instinct" have it from the get go. Has anyone had this as a weakness and then cultivated it in their training?
I always get the impression that climbers with a surfeit of "killer instinct" have it from the get go. Has anyone had this as a weakness and then cultivated it in their training?
it would be interesting to hear if Lattice or their clients find their data driven approach works better for bouldering.
For me it was more about letting go of the outcome and just thinking about getting through the next move or two.
it would be interesting to hear if Lattice or their clients find their data driven approach works better for bouldering.
I wanted to post the Self-Coached Climber table here (in case it's of interest / helps discussion) but it doesn't seem straightforward to insert / attach an image - assistance?
That said, the predictive power of metric based models does go up quite a lot if you include things like 'how many years have you been climbing obsessively?', or 'what grade do you boulder in the style of the route you want to do?'. 'What grade of homogenous plastic route can you do laps on?' totally fits into that style of metric imo!
I always get the impression that climbers with a surfeit of "killer instinct" have it from the get go. Has anyone had this as a weakness and then cultivated it in their training?
I always get the impression that climbers with a surfeit of "killer instinct" have it from the get go. Has anyone had this as a weakness and then cultivated it in their training?
My hunch is if you got a load of climbers to self-report on their perceived 'killer instinct scoreTM' and got a climbing partner to do likewise, the results would show an association with free testosterone levels. Easy blood test to take. Research idea for someone?
Are you sure it is not the other way around, that the predictive power of various suggested explanatory variables goes down when you control for "time spent training"? At least that was what I found.
Maybe it would be possible to train the mindset by signing for a beginner's boxing club and learning how to continue performing a difficult athletic activity requiring co-ordination while getting punched in the face.
I think we're both right - if you include years of experience, the overall predictive power of a multi-factor model goes up (quantified by adjusted r^2 or something comparable, depending on what method you're using), but each individual metric like max hang or box splits or whatnot has less weight attached to it in the final model, so less predictive power.For what's quoted in bold face: not necessarily true, it can go in both directions.
Are you sure it is not the other way around, that the predictive power of various suggested explanatory variables goes down when you control for "time spent training"? At least that was what I found.
Interested to hear more about what you were doing there!
Although, as a follow up I should note that it won't answer the question posed by the OP; which was along the lines of "what marks do I need to hit, if I want to do grade X". In that case, JWI's benchmarks are much more useful than anything you can do on a fingerboard.
It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?
I guess the idea is, that it's easy to go and fail on an 8a - but why?
Doing the tests might help tease out which aspect is problematic. Like most have said, you'd think by the 8a stage you knew what your weaknesses were, but I suppose these change over time and you might not be that honest with yourself?
For me, I'd guess I'm off the "8a in 5 or so tries" mark, more like 7c, and 7c+ would be 10-15 tries I'd guess.
I would, at a guess, manage this:
1. (Lactate treshold test/Endurance) Climb a 7a of 30 moves 10 times with 1 minute rest between the laps
2. (Anaerobic capacity at 80% of max/Strength endurance) Climb a 7b of 30 moves 6 times with 8 min rest between the laps
3. (Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance) Climb an 7c of 30 moves 2 times with 30 min rest between the laps. More likely at 7b+
4. (Strength) Do a technically basic 7B of about 5-6 moves in five tries 7A+ deffo, 7B would be pushing it.
I might be wrong on the first one....