UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Aussiegav on December 20, 2020, 09:32:51 am
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So,
I have weak fingers.
Been using a fingerboard for twice a week on average for 2 years. I weigh 85kg. Since April 2018, I’ve gone from not being able to half crimp a 20mm edge at body weight to now body weight plus 18kg for 10secs.
Whilst I’ve managed to maintain healthy fingers, I think these aren’t great gains. Certainly not the massive gains that others have stated.
I’ve been wondering it would be better to do two hard limit bouldering board sessions and either; dropping the fingerboard sessions or just one finger board session a week? (Probably a density hang session).
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Depending on your age, training history and other things these could be pretty good gains.
I would be insanely happy for such gains 🤷🏼♂️ in just two years.
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Depending on your age, training history and other things these could be pretty good gains.
Yes, going up 18kg in 2 years is pretty good progress for the majority of people. I think the general thinking with fingerboarding (and finger strength in general) is that it's a slow builder, so the key is to keep plugging away over the course of years. I think it's important to mix up your fingerboarding so the stimulus doesn't get stale, though. Swapping between max hangs, density hangs, different grip types etc. helps to keep it interesting.
Having said that board sessions are probably a good thing to add in to the mix. It's a much more dynamic exercise (vs. fingerboarding which is very isometric) and is very specific, so you'll get good transfer of board strength to climbing.
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After the same initial gains I appear to have maxed out my gains.
A couple of years ago I decided to swap deadhang sessions for board sessions.
Benchmarked beforehand and retested afterwards.
The result was the same sort of gains in finger strength I'd expect to see over a fingerboard block but contact strength, power, technique and a zillion other apects of my climbing were far better.
Plus it was obviously more fun
I did try a dedicated fingerboard programme again during lockdown thinking if I started with Andersons and went from there maybe that would help but I wasn't making too many gains then got injured.
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Depending on your age, training history and other things these could be pretty good gains.
I would be insanely happy for such gains 🤷🏼♂️ in just two years.
48 in 2021.
Had a massive break from serious climbing 2003 and returned in 2018. So was like starting from scratch again.
That’s a relief to think these are good gains. Suppose it’s managing expectations, having patience & trying not to reflect on what I used to do.
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It's probably worth remembering that a lot of the numbers posted on here may include the initial "bump" you seem to get when first starting weighted hangs.
Was your bodyweight initial test what you could do day one, or what you could do after a bit of getting used to doing hangs?
I remember in April when I first started doing weighted hangs, I quickly jumped 10-15kg, but that was really me just getting used to doing it and getting closer to my actual max ability at the time. After that, it was a lot more slow and gradual.
That said, mixing it up is always good when you plateau.
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I’m 51 and I’d be chuffed with those gains oldfella.
But also echo what Nai said - since building a board in March (50 deg and a bit) with lots of small but positive crimps - I’ve stopped finger boarding.
Not benchmarked any gains like Nai - but I get the same finger ache after a session from the board and it builds all sorts of other strenths too.
And it’s much less dull.... all that counting to 7... 😁
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I’m old school and think fingerboard should be supplementary. If you have the choice go for a board session every time.
You can do both quite well. Max hangs to warm up.
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A lot depends on the steepness of the board. Over 40 degrees and in my experience you’re not training finger strength as well as you would on a 20 - 30 degree board.
Also, what’s your natural grip? I’d find it very hard to force half crimp on a board when I naturally chisel my (relatively) short index finger.
Are you already decent in other areas on a board?
Minimum 3 sessions pw for me deadhanging to see any gains.
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I think on steeper boards you’re just training a different sort of finger and hand strength than you are in more vertical boards. It’s certainly still east to set problems you can’t do because you can’t hang onto the holds, rather than because the moves are too big. On less steep boards to set relatively difficult problems you end up having to use v small or slopey holds so the whole affair becomes a lot more conditions dependent.
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What do you mean by “a different sort of finger strength”? Surely finger strength is pretty basic and boils down to open/half crimp/crimp/pockets. I have a 60 degree board in my garage with mainly crimps on it, but I still end up dragging them, as that’s my natural/default prehension.
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When climbing on steeper boards I find there’s a lot more opposition thumb action going on that on shallower angle boards, which are more thumb over crimping or dragging (away from pure pinches at both angles obviously). This seems to put your wrist and hands in different positions and I’m not sure the strength is directly transferable.
I can’t imagine trying to force an unnatural hand position whilst climbing on a board, I’m not even sure about forcing a 90 degree first finger on the fingerboard if your natural position is straight, particularly if one is also training full crimp.
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I think those with a long history of training need to force themselves out of natural grip positions to make appreciable gains. The idea of just pulling harder on your natural grip only takes you so far. My index fingers are relatively weak, forcing them into 90 degrees doesn’t feel ‘bad’ and definitely improves my overall grip strength when forced to crimp or pull on awkward holds outside. The problem with most indoor wooden holds is that you can virtually always get your thumb on. I don’t think getting your thumbs on is good for improving finger strength.
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Depends on the holds shirley?
On mine I have very incut 13-15mm crimps - that I tend to open /half crimp and single pad 16-20mm rounded holds - that on a 50 are effectively15-20 degree single pad slopers. These can make you climb quite differently - either open hand hang under them or more powerfully crimp the back edge.
Depends what you want from your finger strength? 6 or 10mm micros will help your pex/ ratty lime edges - on a slopey crimp you have to pull really hard in a different way... I think!!
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6 or 10mm micros will help your pex/ ratty lime edges
but not 8, totally useless
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6 or 10mm micros will help your pex/ ratty lime edges
but not 8, totally useless
Ideal for Harmers :p 😁
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Thanks everyone for the contributions.
All the best to you all for the festive season and 2021.
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The problem with most indoor wooden holds is that you can virtually always get your thumb on. I don’t think getting your thumbs on is good for improving finger strength.
The thumb is a finger and less semantically thumb strength is important.
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But you can't squeeze everything and on steep boards, you can get your thumb on almost anything!
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The problem with most indoor wooden holds is that you can virtually always get your thumb on. I don’t think getting your thumbs on is good for improving finger strength.
The thumb is a finger and less semantically thumb strength is important.
I had a conversation like this with my 4 1/2 year old last week. “Dad, how come I can I have five fingers on my hand when I count them I have a thumb and four fingers?”
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But you can't squeeze everything and on steep boards, you can get your thumb on almost anything!
So from a training point of view that’s a good thing
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suspect the comma would have better placed after everything, if Paul meant what I think he did.
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But you can't squeeze everything and on steep boards, you can get your thumb on almost anything!
There’s often thumbs on steep stuff outside, and there’s often crimps it’s easier to thumb over bone down on steep boards. Obviously a good board will have a variety of options, and if you had a particular project with a particular type of hold it should be easy to replicate.
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The problem with most indoor wooden holds is that you can virtually always get your thumb on. I don’t think getting your thumbs on is good for improving finger strength.
The thumb is a finger and less semantically thumb strength is important.
Agree. You use your thumbs most of the time when you go outside (or I do anyway, in one way or another), so why restrict their usage in training?
I think the only reason not to is to reduce reliance on full crimp and hopefully reduce injury risk, but even that has issues.
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Not sure if this is the point t_b was trying to make, but on some of the boards I've used there's an over abundance of Jenga block style crimps, where you can use your thumb on the short end of the crimp or you can get a bit of pinch action on it. In my experience this is significantly easier than an equivalent sized edge where you can't get any thumb action on the go, and if you use the holds a lot then you can become over reliant on the thumb. It can be a bit of a shock when you then get outside and feel weak on holds just because you can't get the thumb involved.
As always, the key is keeping a bit of variety so you don't become overly specialised in a single style of hold.
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on some of the boards I've used there's an over abundance of Jenga block style crimps, where you can use your thumb on the short end of the crimp or you can get a bit of pinch action on it. In my experience this is significantly easier than an equivalent sized edge where you can't get any thumb
All my first set of holds when I built my wall in May we're like this. It not only means you rely a lot on the thumb (easier) but you also really restrict the hand a wrist position, I actually started getting some signs of overuse in the thumb/wrist area.
Since then I reshaped most of them with sloping a rounded undersides so that the thumb action was minimised.
Is it a good/bad idea never to train full thumb-over-index full-boned crimping? I have a bit of a conflict there, as I generally feel you should at least do a small part of your training on all hold types to prepare for what you get outside, but then I never do full crimp on either the fingerboard or the board, but occasionally when just doing problems at TCA.
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Not sure if this is the point t_b was trying to make, but on some of the boards I've used there's an over abundance of Jenga block style crimps, where you can use your thumb on the short end of the crimp or you can get a bit of pinch action on it. In my experience this is significantly easier than an equivalent sized edge where you can't get any thumb action on the go, and if you use the holds a lot then you can become over reliant on the thumb. It can be a bit of a shock when you then get outside and feel weak on holds just because you can't get the thumb involved.
Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Nothing radical, it’s the basis on which Beastmaker marketed their fingerboard initially.
Obviously you use your thumbs outside on pinches and weak thumbs might be an issue occasionally, but I can’t think of many moves where I wish I had stronger thumbs (the first move of Hulk at Crag X springs to mind). I can think of lots of moves on limestone in particular where your thumb can’t assist much and where I’m just not strong enough in the fingers. I therefore buy into the idea that isolating a weak digit (in my case, my index finger) is a good idea and practically it’s easier to do that and force half crimp on a fingerboard, as opposed to a steep board.
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Ah... understand now TB.
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Interesting conversation as I've only had my own board for about 3 months and I've found the thumb creeping in on everything and I can see the value in both.
I've got some disc style crimps as discussed but can anyone recommend and other good crimp or other holds to that matter that eliminate the thumb on approach in resin or wood. Basically any advice on some variety to add in to what people describe as the pinch and crimp fest.!
Any suggestions gratefully received.
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Just discipline yourself not to use thumb?
Otherwise if you have a lot of Junga blocks you can just plane down the "thumb" end so you can't use it?
I've got a "ladder" made from old curtain rod screwed on, and can use it full crimp with thumb on end, full crimp without thumb on, or half crimp without.
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On rock you're always discussing 'how exactly do you hold this hold then..' I find thumbs are often a key part of this discussion. Friction allows you to really use the thumb to get the most out of holds. On the board I use thumbs a tonne but then equally set rules for certain problems/moves/holds that don't allow thumbs, just like impose rules of no heel hooks or toe hooks sometimes. Gets frustrating but adds variety and is a good training tool.
On topic, I use my board between 3 and 5 times a week depending on the week and I hangboard twice a week. I have just started hangboarding short Int hangs / repeaters session after a power endurance session rather than hangboarding on strength day which is something Eva Lopez advises.
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Sounds like quite a lot for fingers to recover from long term.
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Not really. The power endurance day is two rounds of two linked boulders at the beginning of the cycle building to three rounds of three linked boulders. The int hangs is two sets of three reps building to five sets. Done on two grips. It's not a lot really is it.
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An update and a quandary.
I stopped doing fingerboard sessions in July 2021 and did more board climbing. Which interestingly and maybe not surprisingly, my fingers got weaker.
Over the last 5weeks I’ve reintroduced fingerboard sessions. Doing 2 sets of density hangs/week to build connective tissue and tendons.
So tonight I did a 10s max hang assessment on a 20mm lattice edge in preparation for 6 week block of 10s max hangs.
Base weight with dipping belt =87.4kg
Max hang was 87.4kg + 17.7kg = 106kg
My fingers are depressingly weak. :boohoo:
So reaching out to the knowledgeable folk again. :please:
Do I;
1. Go for 3 sessions/week of max hangs and drop a boulder session (currently doing 2 board sessions per week with one sport session). I want to keep the sport session.
2. Do a 3rd session of max hangs before a boulder session
3. Do 2 sessions/week of max hangs & stay with the two bouldering sessions.
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An update and a quandary.
I stopped doing fingerboard sessions in July 2021 and did more board climbing. Which interestingly and maybe not surprisingly, my fingers got weaker.
Over the last 5weeks I’ve reintroduced fingerboard sessions. Doing 2 sets of density hangs/week to build connective tissue and tendons.
So tonight I did a 10s max hang assessment on a 20mm lattice edge in preparation for 6 week block of 10s max hangs.
Base weight with dipping belt =87.4kg
Max hang was 87.4kg + 17.7kg = 106kg
My fingers are depressingly weak. :boohoo:
So reaching out to the knowledgeable folk again. :please:
Do I;
1. Go for 3 sessions/week of max hangs and drop a boulder session (currently doing 2 board sessions per week with one sport session). I want to keep the sport session.
2. Do a 3rd session of max hangs before a boulder session
3. Do 2 sessions/week of max hangs & stay with the two bouldering sessions.
I don’t really know anything about this kind of thing, but I’ve just started a plan from a coach/physio.
I did a 7s Max hang test and I’m doing 6x10s max hangs 2-3 times a week, but using 85% of my “total” 7s weight (my weight + weight added).
I didn’t want to stop board sessions so he’s put them in at the start of a session. So 15 mins warm up, some recruitment hangs, 10s hang, 2 min rest x6, and then a board session.
The hangs are really making me feel recruited and strong for the board session so that way seems to be working for me.
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Option 3.
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I didn’t want to stop board sessions so he’s put them in at the start of a session. So 15 mins warm up, some recruitment hangs, 10s hang, 2 min rest x6, and then a board session.
The hangs are really making me feel recruited and strong for the board session so that way seems to be working for me.
That's interesting. I cannot really do any bouldering after a fingerboard session. Even if I just do warmup + 4 x 10 s hangs in the morning, I am usually noticeable weaker bouldering in the evening. If I do them just before climbing I am pretty useless. Some people have told me that is because my hangboard sessions are too hard and I should do the hangs at lower intensity. I have experimented with that a bit, but felt that in that case they add very little value and mostly just eat time on a busy schedule.
Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).
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An update and a quandary.
I stopped doing fingerboard sessions in July 2021 and did more board climbing. Which interestingly and maybe not surprisingly, my fingers got weaker.
Over the last 5weeks I’ve reintroduced fingerboard sessions. Doing 2 sets of density hangs/week to build connective tissue and tendons.
So tonight I did a 10s max hang assessment on a 20mm lattice edge in preparation for 6 week block of 10s max hangs.
Base weight with dipping belt =87.4kg
Max hang was 87.4kg + 17.7kg = 106kg
My fingers are depressingly weak. :boohoo:
So reaching out to the knowledgeable folk again. :please:
Do I;
1. Go for 3 sessions/week of max hangs and drop a boulder session (currently doing 2 board sessions per week with one sport session). I want to keep the sport session.
2. Do a 3rd session of max hangs before a boulder session
3. Do 2 sessions/week of max hangs & stay with the two bouldering sessions.
I don’t really know anything about this kind of thing, but I’ve just started a plan from a coach/physio.
I did a 7s Max hang test and I’m doing 6x10s max hangs 2-3 times a week, but using 85% of my “total” 7s weight (my weight + weight added).
I didn’t want to stop board sessions so he’s put them in at the start of a session. So 15 mins warm up, some recruitment hangs, 10s hang, 2 min rest x6, and then a board session.
The hangs are really making me feel recruited and strong for the board session so that way seems to be working for me.
For balance I'd like to say that when I do this it tends to lead to overtraining or a drop in quality on the board session.
Personally I've started looking at max hangs and board training a little differently lately and am risking a whole winter season on applying this thought process. In the past I've always looked at max hangs as a primary strength training tool but more recently I've started viewing them in a similar way to aeropow i.e. this 'sharpening the blade' preparatory training that can deliver a peak performance in a short period.
The thing I noticed and wanted to test is that if I don't do any max hangs then I can do 4 board sessions per week plus an endurance top up. This is split into 2x max boulder and 2x ancap. It's already a lot of load for the fingers so trying to work any fingerboarding into this just doesn't make sense, and I know that the board climbing is higher volume, more specific and more power developing. My thought process is that this higher volume of board climbing will lead to overall more consistent strength/power/ancap gains (and variety!). The plan is then to move into an aeropow phase with less board volume, at which point I'll bring the max hangs in to get everything maximally recruited.
However it's probably worth pointing out that my board is very rock focused and has a lot of small crimps/pockets and is generally very finger intensive to climb on - so this is definitely a contributing factor in my decision process. I also have a fairly high base level of finger strength, so this also plays a role in the decision making.
Hope this is useful as an anecdote, if nothing else! We'll see whether it pays off once conditions come around again.
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Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).
:o You're weird!
To counteract Mischa and JWI, I will do 3-4 max hangs (~5s at 100% max) before a hard bouldering session. I find it necessary to feel recruited and it has a big positive impact on my bouldering.
I guess it should be obvious whether hangs before the board are impacting your board session or not. If they are, try lowering the volume (number and duration) before ditching the idea completely.
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Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).
:o You're weird!
I once did my personal best on the thinnest rungs on the campus board in the gym (thin enough that some people who climb well into the eights but have short pinkies cannot do a single move on them) after half a session of laps on a long boulder (50s climbing time).
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I didn’t want to stop board sessions so he’s put them in at the start of a session. So 15 mins warm up, some recruitment hangs, 10s hang, 2 min rest x6, and then a board session.
The hangs are really making me feel recruited and strong for the board session so that way seems to be working for me.
That's interesting. I cannot really do any bouldering after a fingerboard session. Even if I just do warmup + 4 x 10 s hangs in the morning, I am usually noticeable weaker bouldering in the evening. If I do them just before climbing I am pretty useless. Some people have told me that is because my hangboard sessions are too hard and I should do the hangs at lower intensity. I have experimented with that a bit, but felt that in that case they add very little value and mostly just eat time on a busy schedule.
Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).
I’ve never really trained much before, so it might just be feeling okay at the moment but time will tell.
My aims are perhaps a little different too. I’ve got a trip coming up in 8 weeks, so I basically had 10 weeks to try and get what I can. Main thing was aerobic capacity so I’m doing 2-3 sessions of this after a board session. And I was quite adamant I didn’t want it to feel too “training” like.
So the hangs only take 10 mins at the start of a session. Then board session is just more of a fun one, nothing structured, try some problems, try some circuits, whatever I’m feeling like really. Then 20 mins of endurance work at the end and then some pull ups.
Perhaps if I was going harder on the board session then I’d be finding it more difficult. But I just do it to how I feel really. Maybe for me the fact I’ve not done hangs (or really any structured training) before is boosting my strength enough for it to be noticeable in the board sessions despite the higher load.
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Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).
:o You're weird!
To counteract Mischa and JWI, I will do 3-4 max hangs (~5s at 100% max) before a hard bouldering session. I find it necessary to feel recruited and it has a big positive impact on my bouldering.
I guess it should be obvious whether hangs before the board are impacting your board session or not. If they are, try lowering the volume (number and duration) before ditching the idea completely.
Ah I think we're crossing wires a bit here, I still do a short mix of unstructured hangs or hanging static positions on the board before getting properly into it, especially because it helps define day form and dictate session intensity to a given extent. However this differs in intensity compared to you because I would need a more focused session to come up to actual 100% max hang and by the time I reach the point where I can deliver a true benchmark effort I've cost power that now can't go into the board session.
I'm at a convenient stage right now where bodyweight on the Beastmaker middle rung is about 90% of max so as part of the warm up for a max boulder session I'll often do a couple of bodyweight hangs on the middle rung and one or two on the outside edge (no tight timeframe, usually 3-5 seconds) as when I can do this it indicates I'm ready to pull hard on the board.
My point was more that I don't do a full structured max hangs session with 6-8 reps on each side with weight added as this would be too fatiguing and cost me a lot of good attempts in my board session. However considering it maybe I'm taking advantage of having a good enough finger strength base that I don't need to put focus on it to stay at a non-limiting level. It's certainly not my limiting factor as discussed on the energy systems thread.
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I found that the path to finger strength for me was a lot of climbing at my limit, like 3-4 sessions a week of redlining the little bastards.
Injury risk is high in retrospect. But it did work, my fingers got a lot stronger. I've started fingerboarding and so far my attitude is similar; whack on weight, try really hard, do it as well as loads of climbing.
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I found that the path to finger strength for me was a lot of climbing at my limit, like 3-4 sessions a week of redlining the little bastards.
Injury risk is high in retrospect. But it did work, my fingers got a lot stronger. I've started fingerboarding and so far my attitude is similar; whack on weight, try really hard, do it as well as loads of climbing.
I’m sure this is great advice for the younger reader but my experience as someone who started climbing at 28 is that it probably belongs in the same category as “just drink as much as you like because you probably won’t get a hangover” ;).
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Gav - my first thought is are your fingers actually weaker or are you just worse at hanging an edge because you've not done much of it? I can take a few sessions to relearn how to feel strong hanging a given edge (even if I'm used to hanging 1 arm, it can be specific, e.g. if I train open 4 on the BM edge I would need a few sessions to reach max half-crimp on the lattice edge or if I've done lots of half-crimp I might need a few sessions to regain max on open 4). This obviously may not be true for you, but worth considering...
p.s. I'm also in the camp where I often like a few max hangs or max campus moves as an intro to board sessions. The exception is front 3 half crimp - if I do even a few maximal hangs on this grip I feel like I've drained the tank an inexplicable amount
p.p.s. I agree with cheque!
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An update and a quandary.
I
Base weight with dipping belt =87.4kg
Max hang was 87.4kg + 17.7kg = 106kg
My fingers are depressingly weak. :boohoo:
So reaching out to the knowledgeable folk again. :please:
Do I;
1. Go for 3 sessions/week of max hangs and drop a boulder session (currently doing 2 board sessions per week with one sport session). I want to keep the sport session.
2. Do a 3rd session of max hangs before a boulder session
3. Do 2 sessions/week of max hangs & stay with the two bouldering sessions.
Gav. This really isnt that weak. I have not done any hangs for ages but looking back at last year when i did some on a lattice rung i could only manage +20kg in the tests with my weight at 86kg with belt. II was pretty steady at 7A/B outside at this time and 6C/+ on the moonboard which i think is a good bit above you.
Best i did on the BM1k 20mms was +40kg after the 1st lockdown when i all i had to do was deadhang. In my experiance this equates to about 30kg on lattice rung as i can drag the BM.
If i was you i would drop the deadhangs completely and just boulder.
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I found that the path to finger strength for me was a lot of climbing at my limit, like 3-4 sessions a week of redlining the little bastards.
Injury risk is high in retrospect. But it did work, my fingers got a lot stronger. I've started fingerboarding and so far my attitude is similar; whack on weight, try really hard, do it as well as loads of climbing.
I’m sure this is great advice for the younger reader but my experience as someone who started climbing at 28 is that it probably belongs in the same category as “just drink as much as you like because you probably won’t get a hangover” ;).
I can see where you're coming from 100%. I started when I was 29 mind you. I'm now 32 and the last time I tried my max it was 45kgs added weight on the 20mm BM edge for 5+ seconds. It's probably higher now if the challenge of my working sets is anything to go by. But I appreciate that n = 1 etc
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:lol: Well I’ve no excuse then.
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:lol: Well I’ve no excuse then.
Out of interest do you find fingerboarding has helped you a lot?
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I was quite adamant I didn’t want it to feel too “training” like.
Always find it so strange when climbers are this averse to training, even when they're keen to improve. Very much seems like trying to have your cake and eat it!
The exception is front 3 half crimp - if I do even a few maximal hangs on this grip I feel like I've drained the tank an inexplicable amount
Interesting, I've recently been doing mono and middle 2 half crimp pick ups and have similarly felt a bit impact on subsequent board sessions!
I think with lots of this it's about whether your body is adapted to the stress. Yes fingerboarding before a board session or climbing outside might take a lot away from the latter initially, but you'll adapt to doing it over time.
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I think with lots of this it's about whether your body is adapted to the stress. Yes fingerboarding before a board session or climbing outside might take a lot away from the latter initially, but you'll adapt to doing it over time.
I don't know, a few years of adaption time was not enough for me (rather the opposite, the problem became worse)... YMMV
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I was quite adamant I didn’t want it to feel too “training” like.
Always find it so strange when climbers are this averse to training, even when they're keen to improve. Very much seems like trying to have your cake and eat it!
I’d much rather improve by just climbing though. And I’d just just as happy climbing 7a’s as I would be climbing 7c’s. The only reason I really want to improve a bit is that at the closest crags I’d just run out of stuff to try without repeating things.
I’d personally not be training now if I wasn’t coming back from injury (or at least not doing anything structured). The main aim at the moment is to keep finger rehab going (which I might as well do on some of my weaknesses) and have fun 👍🏻
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It's funny how we're all different. I'd train even if I didn't climb.
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Me too :lol:
I’d much rather improve by just climbing though. And I’d just just as happy climbing 7a’s as I would be climbing 7c’s. The only reason I really want to improve a bit is that at the closest crags I’d just run out of stuff to try without repeating things.
Fair enough of course, although you've summed up the main reason I've always been motivated to improve; there's so much more to do! You're missing an entire world of movement and experiences if you simply can't do the moves. The time investment is obviously higher so fair enough if that's a limit, but just "I don't want to train" is a bit weak really. No offence meant by that James BTW, just always found it odd, and it's in no way specific to you!
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Me too :lol:
Where's Nibs when you need him? ;)
One thing I'm really enjoying about more structured training is having more resilient fingers. I went through the classic cycle of crimping everything getting pulley injuries, switching to open handing everything, still getting finger injuries when crimping... Of course, careful focussed training of crimps is going to make your fingers more resilient.
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Me too :lol:
I’d much rather improve by just climbing though. And I’d just just as happy climbing 7a’s as I would be climbing 7c’s. The only reason I really want to improve a bit is that at the closest crags I’d just run out of stuff to try without repeating things.
Fair enough of course, although you've summed up the main reason I've always been motivated to improve; there's so much more to do! You're missing an entire world of movement and experiences if you simply can't do the moves. The time investment is obviously higher so fair enough if that's a limit, but just "I don't want to train" is a bit weak really. No offence meant by that James BTW, just always found it odd, and it's in no way specific to you!
No offence taken at all. I find it crazy how people can train so much :lol:
I think the main thing for me is that I generally improve by just doing things, it just takes longer. And I’m happy to go to the wall, do circuits, try hard on the board etc. But I hate the idea of having to think about what I’m doing and what part of my “system” it will improve etc.
Maybe this 10 week block that I’m doing will change my view a bit!
I’m the same with running. I want to improve, but I’d do it by just doing longer runs, or adding some steeper runs in to get better at them.
The downside of this approach is I generally injure myself at least once a year in most activities I do which could probably be avoided if I was more strict. But they are varied enough activities that I can just drop one for a while, and focus on the other a bit more in the mean time. And due to the lack of real goals, the setbacks don’t matter.
The lack of training over the years is probably why I got called kitten fingers! Confirmed by lattice years ago with my 8a stamina and 6C strength :lol:
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Nowt wrong with kitten claws (https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/dbpage.php?id=43436)
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I want that route so bad
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James Malloch Anti-Training Protocol will get you up it no problem. Especially if you can already plank for the same time the route takes to climb.
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:lol: Well I’ve no excuse then.
Out of interest do you find fingerboarding has helped you a lot?
What’s helped me gain stronger fingers is fingerboarding methodically. I learnt the necessity of that from doing rehab after my huge near-fatal deckout. The long hiatus from climbing helped my longstanding finger tweaks to heal too. A positive spin would be that I got the opportunity to start climbing again from scratch but with the knowledge I’d gleaned from ten years of making it up as I went along.
I didn’t understand the need to be consistent and patient in gaining strength when I first started climbing (I had no sport or even exercise background apart from climbing in the Scouts as a kid) so I’d just try and do stuff that my fingers weren’t strong enough for and damage them. That’s why I was cringing when I read your advice.
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I think these days I'm quite methodical in my training, so I do agree consistency is key, but I do also think that there is such a thing as very regular intense stimulus that is slightly less than maximal to get you over a hump.
Probably if someone said "what should I do?" I wouldn't necessarily recommend what I did, but if someone else did it, I wouldn't necessarily tell them to do otherwise, and I wouldn't be surprised if it worked.
I also do think that a lot of injury, finger injuries in particular, come from having weak fingers, rather than overtrained ones. I'd get someone psyched for climbing on the fingerboard ASAP tbh. The quicker they get strong, and the stronger they get, the less injured they'll be.
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In my experience, a lot of improvement in fingerboarding (especially initially) is in the specific adaptions to fingerboarding itself. There is of course some carry over to real climbing which is why it's useful - but just important to remember its not 100%. (However, fingerboarding does provide some benefit in terms of setting training goals i.e. working towards 150% bodyweight, or 100% bodyweight on 20ml wth one arm for example.)
I think boarding climbing is more specific for outdoor climbing and a good way to practice it in the context of other aspects of training like contact strength, momentum, timing, technique etc.
If you find your fingers don't feel worked enough on a board climb, you can make it harder by:
1). Making the holds smaller
2). Wooden holds mean you have to squeeze harder
3). Taking away a thumb catch
4). Making the feet much much worse (<- my personal favourite)
Principally though, whether you are doing either, you need to focus on intensity rather than volume. Every set/climb should involve you getting angry and summoning EVERY morsel of try hard you can summon
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If you find your fingers don't feel worked enough on a board climb, you can make it harder by:
1). Making the holds smaller
2). Wooden holds mean you have to squeeze harder
3). Taking away a thumb catch
4). Making the feet much much worse (<- my personal favourite)
Yes, I like #4 too because trying and failing on nasty crimps makes me fear for pulleys. I set a board problem recently on really quite good holds, all full pad. But the footholds are terrible. It's hard. Works well.
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Poppy poor feet (I'm looking at you Beastmaker boards) make me fear for my tendons more than anything!
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Small but good feet in the wrong place or orientation work all right though. They just make the moves very foot focused or powerful.
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From the point of view of fingerboarding vs board climbing, fingerboarding isn't really very climbing specific is it? I mean it is, but in a S&C sense; fingerboarding is base physical strength in a particular area, board climbing translates that into generating power from small holds, contact strength, accuracy etc.
So if we were S&C coaches looking to improve someone’s sprinting, and that someone is untrained, we'd get them doing squats for a strength base, then plyos for power, then we'd increase the sprinting to translate the strength and power into running really fast.
So from a climbing perspective we do fingerboarding for strength, and then do we board climb to turn that strength into climbing movement improvement? That seems right to me (admittedly nothing like an expert)
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Nowt wrong with kitten claws (https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/dbpage.php?id=43436)
I can't remember Fiend, have you climbed much on the Culm, and Baggy.
Better for strong calves perhaps, rather than fingers.
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From the point of view of fingerboarding vs board climbing, fingerboarding isn't really very climbing specific is it? I mean it is, but in a S&C sense; fingerboarding is base physical strength in a particular area, board climbing translates that into generating power from small holds, contact strength, accuracy etc.
So if we were S&C coaches looking to improve someone’s sprinting, and that someone is untrained, we'd get them doing squats for a strength base, then plyos for power, then we'd increase the sprinting to translate the strength and power into running really fast.
So from a climbing perspective we do fingerboarding for strength, and then do we board climb to turn that strength into climbing movement improvement? That seems right to me (admittedly nothing like an expert)
That's how I see it if you're talking about 5-10s hangs on both arms. Short duration 'speed pulls' or 'velocity pulls' with one arm are probably a bit more specific.
As cheque says, another benefit of a fingerboard is it can be a good tool for rehab.
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Campusing on edges would work for that I guess? Rather than bigger juggier campus rungs that is.
One day I might do some campusing on the rungs. I had it thoroughly beaten out of me by basically everyone I know last time, and rightfully so, but still.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TmC5C5K/ONE-DOES-NOT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TmC5C5K)
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Back in 1990, in Sheffield, living with Bubba, Ian Vincent, Danny Brooks and occasional others, we had one of the first boards.
Pollitt and Ben had one.. I think it was just before Jerry built his. (The cellar of Jerry's old house - where they filmed "We're training for 8c+" and Ben gets kinky, is now 9A Smithywood Road ;D ).
On one small section of 45 degree board, we put a ladder of 20mm square section "rungs". To begin with, it seemed futuristic just to lift your bum off the deck. These were basically 20mm sloping pinches. It wasn't long before I was laddering them. Flippin amazing section of board.
Small wooden holds that require accuracy are key, starting with big feet, and getting progressively smaller.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TmC5C5K/ONE-DOES-NOT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TmC5C5K)
Out of interest how regularly do people fingerboard? I've started doing it twice a week with an aim to one-armed hang the BM2000 central 25mm edge by the end of the year, but I'm not sure if a third weekly session would really help progress.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TmC5C5K/ONE-DOES-NOT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TmC5C5K)
Out of interest how regularly do people fingerboard? I've started doing it twice a week with an aim to one-armed hang the BM2000 central 25mm edge by the end of the year, but I'm not sure if a third weekly session would really help progress.
BM2k has a 25mm central edge? I thought it was 20mm for the lower central bit?
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I thought it was 25mm, but could very well be 20mm yeah. Basically that one.
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/pedant mode...
Lofty aim, but with your base 2-handed strength sounds achievable. Maybe just do one every 3 days to start with, see how it goes? You should be able to judge for yourself how well recovered you are.
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Fultonius I thought you were going to say that with Wellsy's base 2 hand strength the last thing he probably needs to train, for his current bouldering grade, is finger strength!
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It's 23mm. There's a thread on here somewhere with all the bm2k dimensions.
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Fultonius I thought you were going to say that with Wellsy's base 2 hand strength the last thing he probably needs to train, for his current bouldering grade, is finger strength!
Aye, well, true but while the gains keep going is it worth stopping? :lol:
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Fultonius I thought you were going to say that with Wellsy's base 2 hand strength the last thing he probably needs to train, for his current bouldering grade, is finger strength!
Aye, well, true but while the gains keep going is it worth stopping? :lol:
This is what I'm thinking. No downside and it's not exactly time consuming or session wrecking. In fact I tend to find it makes me a bit more recruited!
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It's 23mm. There's a thread on here somewhere with all the bm2k dimensions.
Always been a bit of a mystery to me why the Beastmaker edges aren't more logical sizes. Guess they were pre the real nerdy training boom in a lot of ways. I bet if they made a tweaked version (the 3000?!) with the size of each edge stamped below it it would sell like hot cakes!
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rather than my version with them in pencil.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TmC5C5K/ONE-DOES-NOT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TmC5C5K)
Out of interest how regularly do people fingerboard? I've started doing it twice a week with an aim to one-armed hang the BM2000 central 25mm edge by the end of the year, but I'm not sure if a third weekly session would really help progress.
Weirdly I got to a one arm hang on 20mmish with very very little fingerboard training. The most serious fingerboarding I'd done was a 6 week block of middle two max hang twice a week. I went from -8KG to one arm within around 10 months of bouldering/route climbing and the one block of fingerboard. I have no idea why to this day but every year like clockwork do a retest on the lattice rung/BM2k and seem to be able to add a few more kilos. It drops off if I don't go bouldering but after a few weeks of bouldering will be back. Very weird because in all other aspects strength and power is my big weakness but the fingers are just out there doing their own thing apparently. Would be interesting to know if anyone else experienced this sort of thing.
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Very weird because in all other aspects strength and power is my big weakness but the fingers are just out there doing their own thing apparently. Would be interesting to know if anyone else experienced this sort of thing.
Exactly the opposite to me. I can go a year without looking at a barbell and then deadlift 200kg, but my fingers are weak for the grade and training them anywhere between 1 and 14 times per week has given me almost no gains for 18 months.
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Weirdly I got to a one arm hang on 20mmish with very very little fingerboard training. The most serious fingerboarding I'd done was a 6 week block of middle two max hang twice a week. I went from -8KG to one arm within around 10 months of bouldering/route climbing and the one block of fingerboard. I have no idea why to this day but every year like clockwork do a retest on the lattice rung/BM2k and seem to be able to add a few more kilos. It drops off if I don't go bouldering but after a few weeks of bouldering will be back. Very weird because in all other aspects strength and power is my big weakness but the fingers are just out there doing their own thing apparently. Would be interesting to know if anyone else experienced this sort of thing.
Not the same, but similar. I put a massive block of fingerboard training in over 2020 and got down to a quasi bodyweight hang on the BM2K on my left arm half crimp (added 1.25kg on harness, took 1.25kg off with a pulley). Could do right arm with 1.25kg taken off. I could also do similar weights on a 3 finger drag on that edge. Didn't do much in the way of max hangs for the rest of 2021 as life got in the way. Have started again recently and have quickly got back to where I was, even proper bodyweight hang with no assistance on the 3FD hangs. I've been surprised how quickly this has come back, but climbed a lot on a steep board in autumn 2021 which is probably why.
Meanwhile, my strength is appalling; I can't even lock off one armed on a bar at the moment. I am attempting to address this with some more concerted work on my arms (max pullups, assisted lock offs, negatives etc). I did also notice this in the autumn sport climbing, where I think my arms were getting tired before my fingers were. Looks like its a diet of pullups and weights for me this spring but I think theres a limit to how strong my weedy arms can get!
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How much do you people who can easily get to one arm hangs weigh?
Also the idea that one arm hangs should be correlated with strength and power (as we talk about them in climbing) seems odd to me. "Strength and power" are more about upper arms and shoulders, along with contact strength, whereas a one arm hang is a static load on the fingers on a single joint edge.
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How much do you people who can easily get to one arm hangs weigh?
Also the idea that one arm hangs should be correlated with strength and power (as we talk about them in climbing) seems odd to me. "Strength and power" are more about upper arms and shoulders, along with contact strength, whereas a one arm hang is a static load on the fingers on a single joint edge.
Yeah I don't think a one arm hang could be called power by any stretch, guess finger strength is one of the many moving parts involved in what we call strength though?
I'm pretty light, 59kg, so maybe my fingers are actually piss weak considering they haven't got to lift much. Think being slight definitely works against me in the 'big muscle group' department though.
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Meanwhile, my strength is appalling; I can't even lock off one armed on a bar at the moment. I am attempting to address this with some more concerted work on my arms (max pullups, assisted lock offs, negatives etc). I did also notice this in the autumn sport climbing, where I think my arms were getting tired before my fingers were. Looks like its a diet of pullups and weights for me this spring but I think theres a limit to how strong my weedy arms can get!
Looks like you’ve had some success on some pretty powerful boulders recently, so they’re must be some strength in those arms and shoulders!
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I'm pretty light, 59kg
Urgh, sickening.
As a comparison I'm c. 78kg and my recent best was taking off 8kg on my left hand, so if I weighed the same as you I'd be adding quite a lot of weight to my one arm hang! :lol:
There's loads going on with this, for instance I've been interested recently in Tyler Nelson's work on tendon point attachments and how that plays into the simple classic lever lengths involved, and how that correlates to finger strength.
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I think finger strength relates to power in climbing in the sense that generating power from shitty holds and weird positions is easier when you have stronger fingers.
I can lock off on a bar for a few seconds (3-4 left arm, 5-6 right) and I'm probably specifically a little weak in terms of raw power generation (I can't do better than 1-3-5 on the campus board) but I tend to find I can generate power off tiny holds better than some other people I know who can generate more power from a jug or a bar than me.
Weight as always is a key factor, I'm 75-76kgs and bar lockoffs are hard, I suspect if you're 60kgs they're just naturally way easier.
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I'm pretty light, 59kg, so maybe my fingers are actually piss weak considering they haven't got to lift much.
Yeah I think although load relative to BW is what matters for climbing, it seems easier to reach lower absolute loads regardless of BW. you don't see many of the bigger pros adding 30kg to their one arm hangs on IG!
There's loads going on with this, for instance I've been interested recently in Tyler Nelson's work on tendon point attachments and how that plays into the simple classic lever lengths involved, and how that correlates to finger strength.
Not sure how that would make much difference for hangs? Can see the argument for one arm pull ups.
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Urgh, sickening.
As a comparison I'm c. 78kg and my recent best was taking off 8kg on my left hand, so if I weighed the same as you I'd be adding quite a lot of weight to my one arm hang! :lol:
There's loads going on with this, for instance I've been interested recently in Tyler Nelson's work on tendon point attachments and how that plays into the simple classic lever lengths involved, and how that correlates to finger strength.
Definitely a sport climbers build! I don't doubt your fingers are stronger; although presumably it isn't quite as simple as it seems, hence why people use the % of bodyweight as a measure in an effort to standardise it a bit?
Looks like you’ve had some success on some pretty powerful boulders recently, so they’re must be some strength in those arms and shoulders!
Just about enough maybe! I am generally really, really shit at compression stuff so would be interesting to try a harder problem in that style to see how i got on. Willing to bet I'd be quite average!
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I'm pretty light, 59kg, so maybe my fingers are actually piss weak considering they haven't got to lift much.
Yeah I think although load relative to BW is what matters for climbing, it seems easier to reach lower absolute loads regardless of BW. you don't see many of the bigger pros adding 30kg to their one arm hangs on IG!
There's loads going on with this, for instance I've been interested recently in Tyler Nelson's work on tendon point attachments and how that plays into the simple classic lever lengths involved, and how that correlates to finger strength.
Not sure how that would make much difference for hangs? Can see the argument for one arm pull ups.
I'm a hundred percent certain that tendon attachment points, finger length and so on would make a big difference to one's inherent finger strength capability and maximum.
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Not sure how that would make much difference for hangs? Can see the argument for one arm pull ups.
In the fingers, not the arms...
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYt-lmfppoy/?utm_medium=copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYooAUqJcTB/?utm_medium=copy_link
Although to be fair, the principles are the same in terms of the lengths of your levers.
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Just about enough maybe! I am generally really, really shit at compression stuff so would be interesting to try a harder problem in that style to see how i got on. Willing to bet I'd be quite average!
Think Will was keen to try Jason’s although not sure if that’s still the case, doesn’t get much more squeezy 😄
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How much do you people who can easily get to one arm hangs weigh?
Also the idea that one arm hangs should be correlated with strength and power (as we talk about them in climbing) seems odd to me. "Strength and power" are more about upper arms and shoulders, along with contact strength, whereas a one arm hang is a static load on the fingers on a single joint edge.
Currently 82.5kg after being in deliberate calorie surplus for the last two months where I've been doing a strength/power phase. I'm now winding down the calories but will be keeping the weight at the same level with a weight vest as it drops in order to maintain that advantage whilst getting a little lighter. I won't get much lighter but easily 2-3KG just from reduced water weight/gut content and a little body fat.
My current PB one armed is +13.1KG on the Lattice rung (http://www.instagram.com/p/CL7XvSsCzxJ/) - this was at a bodyweight of 79KG so total 92.1KG. This was in open crimp rather than half crimp - I've recently started using half and full crimp a lot more and can do bodyweight for 10 seconds plus with a half crimp now so will retest that at some point towards the start of the season after tapering.
For what it's worth I think shoulder/scapular engagement has a huge effect on one arm hangs. I can't touch a one arm hang if my shoulders are tired.
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As a comparison I'm c. 78kg at 6'3" or something like that
Urgh, sickening.
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How much do you people who can easily get to one arm hangs weigh?
Also the idea that one arm hangs should be correlated with strength and power (as we talk about them in climbing) seems odd to me. "Strength and power" are more about upper arms and shoulders, along with contact strength, whereas a one arm hang is a static load on the fingers on a single joint edge.
Currently 82.5kg after being in deliberate calorie surplus for the last two months where I've been doing a strength/power phase. I'm now winding down the calories but will be keeping the weight at the same level with a weight vest as it drops in order to maintain that advantage whilst getting a little lighter. I won't get much lighter but easily 2-3KG just from reduced water weight/gut content and a little body fat.
My current PB one armed is +13.1KG on the Lattice rung (http://www.instagram.com/p/CL7XvSsCzxJ/) - this was at a bodyweight of 79KG so total 92.1KG. This was in open crimp rather than half crimp - I've recently started using half and full crimp a lot more and can do bodyweight for 10 seconds plus with a half crimp now so will retest that at some point towards the start of the season after tapering.
For what it's worth I think shoulder/scapular engagement has a huge effect on one arm hangs. I can't touch a one arm hang if my shoulders are tired.
I know you climb quite hard, but precisely how hard? Good numbers!
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How much do you people who can easily get to one arm hangs weigh?
Also the idea that one arm hangs should be correlated with strength and power (as we talk about them in climbing) seems odd to me. "Strength and power" are more about upper arms and shoulders, along with contact strength, whereas a one arm hang is a static load on the fingers on a single joint edge.
Currently 82.5kg after being in deliberate calorie surplus for the last two months where I've been doing a strength/power phase. I'm now winding down the calories but will be keeping the weight at the same level with a weight vest as it drops in order to maintain that advantage whilst getting a little lighter. I won't get much lighter but easily 2-3KG just from reduced water weight/gut content and a little body fat.
My current PB one armed is +13.1KG on the Lattice rung (http://www.instagram.com/p/CL7XvSsCzxJ/) - this was at a bodyweight of 79KG so total 92.1KG. This was in open crimp rather than half crimp - I've recently started using half and full crimp a lot more and can do bodyweight for 10 seconds plus with a half crimp now so will retest that at some point towards the start of the season after tapering.
For what it's worth I think shoulder/scapular engagement has a huge effect on one arm hangs. I can't touch a one arm hang if my shoulders are tired.
I know you climb quite hard, but precisely how hard? Good numbers!
Not that hard. My deadhang numbers aren't representative of grade at all. Strength/power/PE is way lower.
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I can't remember Fiend, have you climbed much on the Culm, and Baggy.
Better for strong calves perhaps, rather than fingers.
I've done a bit at Baggy, Blackchurch, Cow And Calf, Dyer's Lookout, Screda Point, Speke's Mill Mouth, Brownspear Point, Gull Rock Marsland, Cornakey, Vicarage Cliff, Hippa Rock, Lower Sharpnose, Sandy Mouth, Maer Cliff, Compass Point and Bude Pillars. I got really into it several years ago, both for the style and it being a beautiful coastline to explore. It's a great and distinctive style that can sometimes feel reassuringly positive and wire-laced, and sometimes dishearteningly blank and run-out depending on one's emotional composure. There's definitely a few more things I'd like to do down there but I do find myself increasingly drawn to the diversity of The Atlantic Coast, Torbay, and North Wales sea-cliffs instead.
Might try to concoct an on-topic post later but it all seems a bit academic for someone is trying to hard to stop falling to bits that Liamhutch98's talk of 10 finger training sessions a week might as well be gobbledegook transmitted from beyond Saturn :alien: