UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: r-man on October 23, 2012, 10:58:39 am
-
Ondra onsighted 8a+ and redpointed 8c at 11. Two years later he climbed 9a.
Ashima just flashed 8b+, aged 11.
-
Ondra onsighted 8a+ and redpointed 8c at 11. Two years later he climbed 9a.
Ashima just flashed 8b+, aged 11.
to state the blindingly obvious, that is not a good comparison
-
to state the blindingly obvious, that is not a good comparison
WTF are you on about?
No latin please
-
to state the blindingly obvious, that is not a good comparison
WTF are you on about?
No latin please
First of all, the differences in physical maturation between the genders at that age are enormous. Besides the gender gap the differnce between two individuals of that age are often vast, so much so to compare two people of the same gender at the same crag is probably still a bit dodgy, let alone on different sides of the world.
With those variables I don't think it is a good comparison. That is WTF i was on about; all this means is she is an incredible climber. Who knows with all the money swilling around american climbing stars maybe she will be climbing 9b in two years, but surely katie brown would be a better comparison who is from the same area?
-
to state the blindingly obvious, that is not a good comparison
WTF are you on about?
No latin please
First of all, the differences in physical maturation between the genders at that age are enormous. Besides the gender gap the differnce between two individuals of that age are often vast, so much so to compare two people of the same gender at the same crag is probably still a bit dodgy, let alone on different sides of the world.
With those variables I don't think it is a good comparison. That is WTF i was on about; all this means is she is an incredible climber.
Maturation, schmaturation. Gender, schmender.
With a comparable early track record to Ondra I predict that she goes on to achieve as much.
Caveat lector.
-
Maturation, schmaturation. Gender, schmender.
With a comparable early track record to Ondra I predict that she goes on to achieve as much.
Caveat lector.
How is it comparable?
Not that I know a huge amount about her but it would appear her climbing career thus far has been bouldering, ondras was comp and routes predominantly.
They climb in different areas on different routes, they are of a different height and gender.
The only thing they have in common is they are both very very very good young climbers.
-
Maturation, schmaturation. Gender, schmender.
With a comparable early track record to Ondra I predict that she goes on to achieve as much.
Caveat lector.
How is it comparable?
Not that I know a huge amount about her but it would appear her climbing career thus far has been bouldering, ondras was comp and routes predominantly.
They climb in different areas on different routes, they are of a different height and gender.
The only thing they have in common is they are both very very very good young climbers.
Grading is universal and not alterered by height, weight, gender, age or star sign.
Her 8b+ flash even factoring in a bit of Red Rock grade/onsightability softness I would say is at least equivalent grade-for-style to Ondra's Euro 8a+ onsight.
Obv we are not dealing with exactitude but in my view her achievements at this age puts her potential in the same ball park as Ondra which is hugely exciting if she goes on to realise what is clearly outstanding potential.
Ashimawad thread anyone?
-
I'm losing the will to live reading this 'debate' so if you do pin a thread about her can it be a new one please.
-
Ashimawad thread anyone?
There already was one. :spank:
Now merged.
Call that a thread? :jab:
-
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/ashima-sends-southern-smoke-514c (http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/ashima-sends-southern-smoke-514c)
Ashima 8c+
-
to state the blindingly obvious, that is not a good comparison
:whistle: :jab:
This is pretty :o
it is obviously much easier because of her small fingers.
-
We need an r-man style chart predicting her grade increase over the years, culminating in what she will be climbing by the time she is Ondra's current age :yes:
-
The other channel are reporting she's done Southern Smoke 8c+! What I hadn't realized is that the two 8b+'s she sent earlier in the week were her first at the grade. That's some progression.
-
it is obviously much easier because of her small fingers.
The secret is her pudding bowl fringe - it's a strong look
-
Amazing!
-
Ridiculous progression!
-
it is obviously much easier because of her small fingers.
The secret is her pudding bowl fringe - it's a strong look
Off to the barbers for me. Actually I don't even think a barber would be able to do much. Gene therapy maybe.
-
7th day on she's done Lucifer, 8c+
-
wow.
It will be interesting to see the progression she makes and what happens to climbing as a whole. Obviously these kids (Ondra, Oddo, Ashima etc) are super talented but for an 11 year old kid to be this world class (is the hardest grade a woman has climbed 9a still?) is amazing.
Ondra managed to achieve these sort of things (although not quite so close to the world limit) when he was a similar age and has managed to continue improving and finding inspiration so far (up to the ripe old age of 18?) and also to avoid any bad injuries. It would be great if Ashima can have a similar progression and in both cases (Adam has done this to a degree) to move away from pure sport climbing and bouldering into bigger stuff.
Also I don't know whether these 'kids' are super talents (obviously yes they are) who would have been world class no matter when they took up climbing, whether it is almost essential to start very young nowadays or whether we are going to see more and more school kids being cutting edge. In climbing - and obviously endurance climbing especially - weight can play a big role in how hard you climb, maybe in 5 years time it will be a 12 year old who does the worlds first 10a whilst Ondra etc watch on whilst talking about how they are past it at 20!
(not wanting to come across negative on Ashima, quite the opposite - when I was 11 and going climbing I was nowhere near this level either in a physical sense or in a mental sense. It is flabbergasting she is climbing so hard and judging by the speed she has climbed 8c+ (and 7th day on) she could undoubtedly go much harder)
Now I'm just going to get May and put her on the finger board, she's 6 now she should be doing 7as.
-
Ondra wasn't quite world class when he was 13, Ashima is at 11. She must be the best sport climber/ boulderer combined. Can't think of another female who's climbed 8c+ AND Font 8b. Climbing really has gone crazy!
-
Ondra wasn't quite world class when he was 13, Ashima is at 11. She must be the best sport climber/ boulderer combined. Can't think of another female who's climbed 8c+ AND Font 8b. Climbing really has gone crazy!
I think it's more that climbing has become increasingly mainstream and we're seeing the sort of athletic families and kids that, twenty years ago, might not have been attracted to climbing as it was back then. Now that sport climbing is the most poplar genre worldwide, kids can excel at climbing and make clear progress to the top by mastering the physical aspects of the sport, without having to go anywhere near the danger/head game aspects of climbing (relatively speaking). I'd be interested to hear what sort of background Ashima has. Imagining a sporting/gymnastics/athletics/goal-oriented family background, rather than the stereotypical kid getting into climbing twenty years ago i.e. not good at other sports / bit of an 'outdoors' geek. Although that pudding bowl suggests I might be wrong :geek:
-
I'd be interested to hear what sort of background Ashima has. Imagining a sporting/gymnastics/athletics/goal-oriented family background, rather than the stereotypical kid getting into climbing twenty years ago i.e. not good at other sports / bit of an 'outdoors' geek. Although that pudding bowl suggests I might be wrong :geek:
Her dad is a choreographer who didn't know climbing a sport... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/sports/ashima-shiraishi-11-conquers-difficult-bouldering-climbs.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/sports/ashima-shiraishi-11-conquers-difficult-bouldering-climbs.html?pagewanted=all)
-
to put some blah blah in context it would be interesting to know what kind of daily sport practice she is involved in.
some textbook theory says that too early specialization and urge for performance can lead to excellent youth results that are not necessairly predictive of adult-age ones.
the mechanism being that if the coach focuses too much on early performances 2 bad things can happen:
a)the young athlete's mind and body are not respected and will enter a crisis later on (ŕ la jennifer capriati)
b)the focus will be put on rapidly-achievable qualities (eg, specific endurance) somehow at the expense of long-term ones that are best developed at an early age (motor and mental skills, "athlete's lifestyle and ethic", ect...)
that said ondra (and his parents) probably focused on the bigger picture and still had excellent results...
-
Campus boards and fingerboards, load of old fashioned rubbish. The future...
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/05/13/sports/ashima-jp2/ashima-jp2-popup.jpg)
-
Good article, nice to read a well-written piece about about climbing from an 'outsiders' point of view.
-
Apparently she's now done Lucifer as well. :strongbench:
-
Amazingly fast too :jaw:
-
Good video. I've repeating 'tight yeah get it' to a 10 year old was a bit weird to be honest...
-
Return of the Warrior Ninja Princess
I'm not clear whether this is
- the title of the video
- the name of the problem
- your assessment of the climber
-
Return of the Warrior Ninja Princess
I'm not clear whether this is
- the title of the video
- the name of the problem
- your assessment of the climber
Its the first as I don't think its thesigers video nor are any problems of that name mentioned (also if you watch it there is some editing in the style of kung fu movies playing on the title).
-
Good video. I've repeating 'tight yeah get it' to a 10 year old was a bit weird to be honest...
Quite. She's clearly not one for the vocal gushing herself at this point, which is great to see, let's hope it stays that way. I remember seeing a video of some young girl climbing a V10 or something a while back - with a cringe-worthy load of screaming and pushy parents cheer leading away. Not great viewing.
She hardly looks like she's boning the shit out of those crimps either, so maybe it's not so bad. Maybe the advice pertains to the "I've just hit puberty, grown a shit load and my digits can't keep up" type situations?
-
This whole featherweight fearless kids tick big numbers leaves me invariably cold, but that's a pretty nice video, she seems like a sweet kid and has awesome shorts, I hope they stay as her trademark :2thumbsup:
Putting this back on here as I want my shorts appreciation to be in the right place
-
DPM have made their 'stash' videos free, so you can watch Ashima here http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/ashima-shiriashi-lucifer-14c (http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/ashima-shiriashi-lucifer-14c.).
Just need to create an account.
-
It's on vimeo. https://vimeo.com/55184231
-
Best bouldering flick I've seen for a while.
Ashima version long on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/54519395)
-
Always loved Obe's attitude. Great to see him channel it!
:bow:
-
Aww bless her crying as she drops the end! I know the feeling!
-
That was lovely to see.
I loved the vision to throw the toe hook in at the comp (amazing), and the little girl enjoying herself bit too. The way it should be. A nice portrait of Obi to boot.
-
I like how he is taking on the Mr Miyagi role.
-
I like how he is taking on the Mr Miyagi role.
It appears that this role is mutually beneficial though. Miyagi didn't need a purpose. He had his bonsai.
-
Miyagi didn't need a purpose.
Or indeed any sea mammal.
(yes slackers I know, it's not the same thing)
-
Noticed this on my girlfriends brake pads:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8492/8300614852_7d20dac334.jpg)
-
Yerrrr that film got really good at the end. I like the real positive vibes about climbing. And I love her shorts.
-
Ashima's Ascent: Rocking the Climbing World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0qj9IihcZw#ws)
-
Chasing Winter • Ashima Shiraishi on Scorpion 8A/V11 on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/57714084)
-
Best bouldering flick I've seen for a while.
Ashima version long on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/54519395)
That's a great little video.
-
I cannot be the only one made extremely uncomfortable by sporting performances by young children being treated as news. Let children be children.
There are many good reasons why Fédération Internationale de Gymnastique don't accept gymnasts under 16 at the olympic games. Climbing is in many aspects a similar sport, we don't have an olympic game, but performances outside on routes and boulders are often treated as if it was a competitive sport.
In the unlikely situation that someone cares what I think, I vote to not heavily publicise sporting performances for children under the age of 16.
-
are you worried that young climbers are going to feel forced to try and stay in the news by pushing themselves? as i agree that this can lead to injuries and excess pressure etc.
but if we all stopped publicising 'miniwads' ascents i dont think that would stop them wanting to try hard, most kids have relentless energy and enjoy trying hard.
in conclusion......... i think sponsors should be careful not to pressure them too much, but i think miniwads should have recognition.
-
I think we all understand that in a sport where weight to strength ratio is important, e.g. bouldering or gymnastics, the best women are prepubescent. The best girls are going to be the talented few who have not yet had a serious tendon injury.
I am quite sure that treating children's climbing as a competitive elite sport fosters a culture where parents/coaches pressure the children to preform on a level that their bodies cannot tolerate without permanent damages. Practicing at elite levels is also mentally demanding, and behavioural and psychological problems will be the consequence for many.
-
sure ive seen some footage of obi carrion (sp?) talking about how he became really depressed after the pressure and hard training in his teenage years. he talks about loosing focus etc...
it is down to parents, coaches and sponsors to prevent excess pressure. and i presume coaches make sure the kids arent overworked/ overstrained and train correctly (ie no campus boards etc until tendons are strong enough).
-
I think we all understand that in a sport where weight to strength ratio is important, e.g. bouldering or gymnastics, the best women are prepubescent. The best girls are going to be the talented few who have not yet had a serious tendon injury.
That's just not true. The best women in climbing (to name a few) are...
Lynn Hill
Josune Bereziartu
Sasha DiGiulian
Anna Stohr
Lisa Rands
Alex Puccio
Dorothea Karalus
Barbara Zangerl
Beth Rodden
...And they aren't prepubuscent. Ashima is clearly up there with them, but considering what the other women have achieved over their lifetimes, I don't see why she can't keep on improving as she grows. Climbing is not gymnastics.
I'm sure there are risks to training young, but if kids want to dedicate themselves to something they are passionate about, perhaps it's better to help them do it safely, rather than say no.
-
I think we all understand that in a sport where weight to strength ratio is important, e.g. bouldering or gymnastics, the best women are prepubescent. The best girls are going to be the talented few who have not yet had a serious tendon injury.
That's just not true. The best women in climbing (to name a few) are...
Lynn Hill
Josune Bereziartu
Sasha DiGiulian
Anna Stohr
Lisa Rands
Alex Puccio
Dorothea Karalus
Barbara Zangerl
Beth Rodden
...And they aren't prepubuscent. Ashima is clearly up there with them, but considering what the other women have achieved over their lifetimes, I don't see why she can't keep on improving as she grows. Climbing is not gymnastics.
I'm sure there are risks to training young, but if kids want to dedicate themselves to something they are passionate about, perhaps it's better to help them do it safely, rather than say no.
Ashima is clearly better at bouldering than many of the above mentioned are, or ever was at their peak.
I think climbing is a fantastic sport (obviously) and kids who love it should be given encouragement to do it (obviously). But even if kids perform at world-class levels, they should not be treated as fodder for the news-cycle. I think it put children's health in unnecessary danger.
In Sweden, the climbing federation tried to bar use of crimp holds from junior competitions. This decision was taken based on some recent evidence that training for maximum strength in the crimp hold leads to permanent life-long damages in the hands of junior climbers. The reactions from many coaches to the federation's move taught me all I needed to know about some peoples priorities on performance vs health for children.
The BMC trying to tell children to stop campusing was also an illuminating episode.
-
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21169.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21169.0.html) good thread here talking about the whole training too young thing.
-
Ashima is clearly better at bouldering than many of the above mentioned are, or ever was at their peak.
Obviously, because some of those listed are legends of previous decades, and some are not boulderers. But the point is that they achieved their best not when they were pre-teens, but as adults, after many years of training. Your statement that "in...bouldering...the best women are prepubescent" is false. One Ashima does not make it true. You can't even say it's true for Ashima, because you don't have an older Ashima to compare her to.
I don't buy this idea that Ashima is on course for disaster (perhaps not precisely what you are saying, but I have heard this from many others). There are lots of young people who have trained hard and continued to climb harder and harder as they grew up. Caution is not a bad thing, because injuries do happen, but I'm not sure we are really doing too much harm by getting excited about a promising young climber.
-
Ashima is clearly better at bouldering than many of the above mentioned are, or ever was at their peak.
I don't buy this idea that Ashima is on course for disaster (perhaps not precisely what you are saying, but I have heard this from many others). There are lots of young people who have trained hard and continued to climb harder and harder as they grew up. Caution is not a bad thing, because injuries do happen, but I'm not sure we are really doing too much harm by getting excited about a promising young climber.
no one (mostly) ever became world class good by waiting for their growth plates to finish...
-
Ashima in 10 years?
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1109/women-sumo/images/53257080_10.jpg)
-
I am quite sure that treating children's climbing as a competitive elite sport fosters a culture where parents/coaches pressure the children to preform on a level that their bodies cannot tolerate without permanent damages. Practicing at elite levels is also mentally demanding, and behavioural and psychological problems will be the consequence for many.
I dont get the impression that this is happening to Ashima, she seems like a kid that loves climbing (much like Ondra at a similar age). I bet she will still be climbing, and kicking ass, in 5 or 10 yrs time.
On the other hand, I would be less sure about Robin Ebersfield's daughter as she will no doubt be subject to extreme pushy parent mother pressure and probably end up wrecked or hating climbing :(
-
Not sure where you get that from Ian. She seems to love climbing for what it is from what I've seen.
-
Is there conclusive evidence about what hanging off your fingers at a young age might do? There are enough climbers in their mid 30s now who will have trained hard as youths. I used a finger board and trained on a board at age 11 and 26 years later I've just had my first pulley tear. Generally speaking my fingers have never been a problem.
You will always get pushy parents in kids sport. Even without media attention there's the comp scene and some kids will drop out anyway if they're too pressured/don't continue to enjoy it. My dad used to drive me around the country doing BMX comps (I was ranked 3rd nationally in my age group at one point). I jacked it in, not because I felt loads of pressure, I just lost interest. Some kids would cry at the end of races if they'd not done as well as hoped whilst others weren't that bothered. That's just the way it is.
-
I used a finger board and trained on a board at age 11 and 26 years later I've just had my first pulley tear.
Fucking hell Tom, was that the first board in the world?
I agree with all of that post by the way. I also did lots of training from a young age and I never got a finger injury. In fact I've only had the odd minor ligament tweak even now and never done a tendon (yet).
I think it helps to train your fingers as they are developing both to prevent injuries in the future and to keep a base level of finger strength which you never lose. This is based on my case study of one.
-
I used a finger board and trained on a board at age 11 and 26 years later I've just had my first pulley tear.
Fucking hell Tom, was that the first board in the world?
:lol: built in my garage - real pieces of Lakeland slate attached to the wall with plastic padding, a ply 45 degree board in the eaves and a 6 foot long finger board for foot off circuits (except I was too small and weak to do much with feet off). 1988 - Mark Leach training for Cry Freedom with foot off circuits in Pollit's? garage was the inspiration I think!
-
Quality. Having had first hand experience of how shit that garage board was I reckon yours was probably far superior.
-
This is a topic I find quite interesting.
I disagree that news about kids climbing/bouldering exploits is in some way dangerous or worrying, or that it is somehow going to drive them to injuring themselves. Ashima *is* exceptional (the same way that it's pretty exceptional that Stevie Haston is still cranking so hard at his age!) and thus newsworthy.
I definitely see some kids being pushed too hard by parents / coaches, but I expect that's the same in lots of sports? Good coaching should help kids learn to be better athletes, and progress whilst minimizing the chance that they hurt themselves through overtraining or poor technique, whatever their chosen sport. Things like keeping them away from campus boards and focussing on larger volumes of easy climbing to build technique seem like common sense to me. Fun fact: all the pushy parents I know whose kids compete are not actually climbers themselves.
I think kids actually get lots out of competition, too - learning to cope with being nervous in front of a crowd, pressure, disappointment etc are all useful life skills. I also think climbing specifically is great for developing focus and other mental skills.
I've climbed since I was 11 (now 37), but never competed, and I don't think I've ever had a serious finger injury despite climbing 7c or so way back when, bouldering on crimpy limestone and training on boards (Nick Jowett had one in his garden shed in Rhos-on-Sea). The worst I ever had as a kid was mild bouts of sore elbows, I think.
I do think over-training when young, or training too hard on small holds (as illustrated by that BMC sponsored research) is likely to have a detrimental affect on kids joint health in later life (and I see a bit of that in some people I know in their 20's who used to compete as kids). Actually, I think one possibly more likely/widespread negative consequence of kids climbing from a very young age is going to be gnarly toes - bunions from tightly fitting shoes are pretty hard to avoid.
My daughter competes, but only because she wants to, and there's certainly no pressure from me. She's got a really great coach, and climbs with a bunch of other really nice kids who love climbing outdoors as well as competing. I can't think of anything I'd rather her be doing...
Hm. I think that might be my longest post ever.
-
And probably best? Good insights. Eldest is 3 and a bit now and keeps wanting to climbing 'wif' me, but more inclined to wait for some warmer weather and get him doing sme more scrambling on boulders outdoors rather than thinking indoor climbing is the norm.
-
Sorry Chris but you have already ruined your of springs chances of getting good. They should be on at least the 7a section of the beast maker app by now or think about another sport.
-
Bugger. Well he had a good go at sponging at Aberdeen last summer; should I have him paddling into OH Brimm's this year?
-
http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/climbing/rock-climbing/The-Science-of-Young-Crushers.html (http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/climbing/rock-climbing/The-Science-of-Young-Crushers.html)
-
The article talks about the possible dangers of climbing for younger climbers -- based on findings that connective tissues are weaker in younger folks.
The problem i would see with those findings are that those are probalby based on normal population. If climbing strengthens our connective tissues, than it's foreseeable that trained in a progressive and careful manner, young climbers bodies may adapt to the strains of pulling hard.
Yesterday at a bouldering competition in my area there were two brothers who started climbing about the same time. separated by 10 years, the younger brother(16 years old) pulled much harder than the older one, and had better overall athleticism.
Knowing that our epigenome can be affected by our genes I wonder if children who climb not only have more time to train relatively speaking, but if by climbing, their development physically and mentally would be adapted epigenetically towards climbing.
That climbing can affect physical development sounds a bit science fictiony but knowing what we do about epigenetics and if you saw what i saw yesterday, and if you've seen the difference between someone like Ashima and someone who started climbing much later in life, it's not so far fetched.
-
Your point about responding to training is fine, but having studied and worked in genetic epidemiology its got bugger all to do with "epigenetics", its just physical adaptation to repeated physical stimuli, and with more years experience of that, no wonder the brother who started younger had better overall athleticism (also helped not just by physical, but the increased experience in technique too).
If you've specific citations on epigenetics to support what you're saying please link them as I'd be interested and its pertinent to the discussion, and its is a very interesting topic.
-
Hi slackline,
First of all thanks for your reply, in regards to your first point, i wanted to clear up -- the brothers started at about the same time, so they have the same years experience. I know brothers are far from genetically identical but they are much more similar than two strangers off the street.
It's possible the younger brother climbs more, but the difference in athelticism i saw does not seem like it was entirely explained that way.
-
Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else - Ashima was in Ceuse the last few weeks and did Dures Limites 8c (2nd go!!) and also L'arcademicien des Crepis 8c, amongst others. Crusher!
Write up from DPM here (http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/514bs-ashima-c%C3%A9%C3%BCse)
-
More readable, less scientific articles:
1. http://www.bionews.org.uk/page_46259.asp (http://www.bionews.org.uk/page_46259.asp)
2.http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952313,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952313,00.html)
These articles talk about cross-generational adaption because it shows that the adaption is on the epigenome and can be inherited, not just an individual physical adaptation.
The reason that is important is that otherwise the argument could be made like you said that it is just the individual adapting, and its not epigenetic.
Child health, development plasticity, and epigenetic programming (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20971919)
This article, from what i can understand, examines environmental impacts of birth to earlychildhood on long term health and development.
Identification of ten loci associated with height highlights new biological pathways in human growth. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18391950/)
This article talks about epigenetics and height.
Epigenetics in Sports (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23329609)
And the holy grail - this article talks about epigenetics and sports, obviously. Well not really the holy grail since it's mostly theory, but i think the fact that these topics are being discussed at this level, on this medium, mean that it is a valid train of thought - athletic performance very well can be influenced epigenetically.
Or in other words, identical twins - could end up with significantly different athletic potential even though they have the same genetic material, simply based on their environment and life expriences.
Sorry lukeyboy didnt mean to interrupt you, that's pretty cool!
-
Thanks for taking the time to reply Krymson.
The NCBI abstracts/articles are for review papers, I've a half-decent understanding of epigenetics having studied at post-graduate & worked in Genetic Epidemiology (analysed several whole genome screens for different diseases). I'd be more interested in scientific studies that demonstrate the conjecture as what little evidence I've come across is in the field of auto-immune diseases and some cancers and nothing anywhere near as complex as the phenotypes of sporting performances which would require some incredibly complex feedback loops.
(By the way from scanning of the height one you link to it talks about and analyses epistasis between the identified loci, which is the interaction/additive/multiplicative effects of multiple genes, not epigenetics).
-
The NCBI abstracts/articles are for review papers, I've a half-decent understanding of epigenetics having studied at post-graduate & worked in Genetic Epidemiology (analysed several whole genome screens for different diseases). I'd be more interested in scientific studies that demonstrate the conjecture as what little evidence I've come across is in the field of auto-immune diseases and some cancers and nothing anywhere near as complex as the phenotypes of sporting performances which would require some incredibly complex feedback loops.
Fair point. I would like to see that kind of stuff as well but epigenetics is a relatively new field and it's technical enough that googling for that kind of material isn't as easy as "epigenetics and sports". I settled for more layman type articles just to show that these ideas carry water and are being considered and researched by serious scientists right now.
(By the way from scanning of the height one you link to it talks about and analyses epistasis between the identified loci, which is the interaction/additive/multiplicative effects of multiple genes, not epigenetics).
This is a quote from the abstract:
"The newly identified loci, along with several additional loci with strongly suggestive associations, encompass both strong biological candidates and unexpected genes, and highlight several pathways (let-7 targets, chromatin remodeling proteins and Hedgehog signaling) as important regulators of human stature."
Also
"It is currently unclear how genetic variation at these loci modulate height, but there is a precedent for a connection between regulation of chromatin structure and stature: "
Chromatin Remodeling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics#DNA_methylation_and_chromatin_remodeling) is a key epigenetic mechanism, from what i understand.
I dont think the point of that paper is that Epigenetics completely determines height as much as that it is one of several determining factors.
Sorry to take the thread a bit off-topic but this is truly fascinating stuff.
-
Fair point. I would like to see that kind of stuff as well but epigenetics is a relatively new field and it's complicated enough that googling for that kind of material would be quite difficult. I settled for more layman type articles just to show that these ideas are feasible, and being considered by serious scientists right now.
All ideas are feasible, they're just not always realistic.
Its a new and emerging field still in its infancy and evidence will of course take time to accrue.
However the effect sizes of any of this will in my opinion be miniscule in comparison to the effects of motivation to train (engender by ones up-bringing) and its application (whether through structured training or going climbing lots and trying really hard as Sharma advocates), something highrepute pointed out in the natural talent thread.
I think the article identified multiple factors actually.
This is a quote from the abstract:
"The newly identified loci, along with several additional loci with strongly suggestive associations, encompass both strong biological candidates and unexpected genes, and highlight several pathways (let-7 targets, chromatin remodeling proteins and Hedgehog signaling) as important regulators of human stature."
Chromatin Remodeling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics#DNA_methylation_and_chromatin_remodeling) is a key epigenetic mechanism, from what i understand.
I dont think the point of that paper is that Epigenetics completely determines height as much as that it is one of several determining factors.
The full text of the article doesn't mention epigenetics anywhere, but they do look for epistasis (a common strategy after performing GWAS, but statistical interaction doesn't always mean biological interaction as has been cautioned by Cordell and others multiple times many years ago).
Yes they've identified new loci which encode genes which would be expected to be strong candidates based on their function, but as you've picked out they found those that wouldn't be expected. This the the inherent beauty/advantage of relatively hypothesis free genome wide association (GWA) scans that they've employed to identify the loci (and also one of their major problems as you get a high rate of false positives, I had early access to one of the 10k SNP arrays and applied it to the dataset we worked on nine years ago, you now have arrays with 100,000 to 500,000 SNPs on, a huge multiple testing problem complicated by linkage disequilibrium meaning that they're not all necessarily independent).
Anyway, this is really :offtopic: for this thread and belongs in the "Natural Talent" one.
-
Yeh, I'm with slackers on this. Now what were you talking about?
-
just arguing about a paper that looks at influences on adult height.
The paper suggests that epigenetic mechanisms - specifically "chromatin remodeling" have a significant influence on height, or in other words, the environment and situation a person grows up in has influence on their height( which honestly i think is established if you look at the height of the average European male from the 19th to 20th century.)
The reason i posted this stuff is i think that, especially if started before puberty, growing up regularly climbing and training can lead to epigenetic changes in a persons development, leading to them literally growing into better climbers than they would otherwise be. i.e. Ashima isn't just skilled, but by climbing since an early age she is sending her body signals to grow into a better climber.
Slackers is saying that this epigenetics malarkey may or may not be true but is less significant than the training effect.
-
The paper suggests that epigenetic mechanisms - specifically "chromatin remodeling" have a significant influence on height, or in other words, the environment and situation a person grows up in has influence on their height( which honestly i think is established if you look at the height of the average European male from the 19th to 20th century.)
They can suggest all they want (but they don't actually). Of the six GWAS cohorts they used only one is from a longitudinal study so with that exception they will only have DNA samples from individuals at a fixed time point and they have no way of assessing whether the chromatin has undergone remodelling (since its impossible to say there have been changes to something when you only assess it a single time point) and thus can not assert that there have been epigenetic changes. This is likely why they don't mention epigenetics in the paper at all.
I reckon improvements in nutrition (i.e. the environment) are more likely the main factor to explain changes in the mean height of Europeans from the 19th to 20th century.
Slackers is saying that this epigenetics malarkey may or may not be true but is vastly less significant than the training effect.
To the extent that it makes the underlying epi/genetic variation negligible.
-
I reckon improvements in nutrition (i.e. the environment) are more likely the main factor to explain changes in the mean height of Europeans from the 19th to 20th century.
IIRC this explains the massive changes in height in the Japanese population too...
-
Ashima has made the 2nd female ascent (after Angie Payne) of The Automator 8B in RMNP.
-
thats amazing. Little beast!
the other channel says she is now going to try jade (8b+) .... :popcorn:
-
Looks like Ashima is back at Red River Gorge with a couple of 8c/ 8c+'s. Pretty impressive more news on the other channel.
-
Super impresive. The day she did 24 carats was shitty conditions. I don't think she's anywhere near her limit in these things
-
need to click through to this one, won't embed: https://vimeo.com/79760414
-
It's hard to hear because the sound levels are all messed up but I thought it was cool she paid homage to Yuki. Not yuji hirayama of 90s sport climbing fame but Yuki the Central Park legend.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/nyregion/thecity/07boul.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/nyregion/thecity/07boul.html?_r=0)
Yuki was an older skinny Japanese fellow who reputedly started in the 80's. A gardener by trade he lived in New York City for free and would often visit Rat Rock where he started climbing, and would continue to climb for over 20 years. He never climbed anywhere else and said he didn't need to.
I was there in 2010 before he left and I would catch him there many afternoons guiding people up the blank vertical face, pointing out miniscule crimps and tiny feet. Or you'd see him on the rock himself, gliding up impossibly.
He was an influence to many climbers in New York but I always heard he was a mentor to Ashima. It was nice to see her pay homage to that in this video.
Here is another video of Ashima at an early age(8? 7?)
Bouldering at Rat Rock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl4lEbbyx38#)
-
Yep, that's 0:41 Guy firmly put in his place
-
And she's just done her first 8B+. Golden Shadow.
2nd woman ever to climb the grade.
(http://photos-c.ak.instagram.com/hphotos-ak-xpa1/10508086_274929359360114_2116587589_n.jpg)
http://instagram.com/p/qT3wOXrJWe (http://instagram.com/p/qT3wOXrJWe)
-
Wowzers.
-
2nd woman ever to climb the grade.
2nd female. Still but a girl surely :)
Either way, holy crap.
-
FFA of the Swarm (V13/14).
Hopefully Alex Johnson will do it too this season (she had been trying it and getting close all last season according to her Instagram feed).
-
Outrageous behaviour!
-
When did The Swarm become a slash grade? Hopefully not at the moment the first female ascent happened? I don't remember ever seeing it as anything other than V14 before.
-
Swordfish Trombone, 8A, flash for her as well...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=605950 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=605950)
-
There's a really nice section in NeilH's new film http://www.outofsightthemovie.com/ (http://www.outofsightthemovie.com/)
Of Ashima doing a few mid-range problems in Apremont. I assume that these are flashes, as they're completely unwired, I love watching unrehearsed stuff. The sequence on Science friction puts me off the whole idea of trying it.
-
Instagram quote "OMG!!! I sent my 4 day project"
Is 4 days even a project at all?
-
Instagram quote "OMG!!! I sent my 4 day project"
Is 4 days even a project at all?
yep my thoughts exactly. Then again, when I was that young summer holidays seemed to last forever. . .
-
Instagram quote "OMG!!! I sent my 4 day project"
Is 4 days even a project at all?
yep my thoughts exactly. Then again, when I was that young summer holidays seemed to last forever. . .
:lol: :lol:
-
Instagram quote "OMG!!! I sent my 4 day project"
Is 4 days even a project at all?
yep my thoughts exactly. Then again, when I was that young summer holidays seemed to last forever. . .
Now I have four children, they do...
-
Some Spanish input into 8a.nu seems to be questioning the grade/challenging what version of the route Ashima climbed.
http://www.8a.nu/? (http://www.8a.nu/?)
"Given the diverse information obtained about the sending of Ashima Shiraishi in Santa Linya, Spain 8a.nu team has been in contact with some of the regulars climbers of the cave. Without any underestimating the incredible activity of the young American, shed some light on the subject and try to be as rigorous as possible.
We start with a little history: Open your mind is a direct path to the right of the cave of Santa Linya equipped by Dani Andrada. The first ascent of its 40 meters corresponds to Ramonet in late 2008, suggesting a degree of 9a +. Quickly the firsts sending arrived: Chris Shrama, Tomáš Mrázek and self Dani Andrada. From the outset he warned of the difficulty scale the same, reaching consensus 9a / +.
Many of next repeaters, according to our information, would not have done the route as the first climbers and as Dani equipped, but would have got off from a fixed draw from 25 meters, in fact, there is no R at that point, as you can see on the 2:03 minute video Mateusz Haladaj into. This would reduce the difficulty of the route, since, as Dani Andrada confirms us, there are still 15 meters of 8b + to the original R. We confirm that Ashima also got down from that point.
José Luis Palao "Primo", whom we thank for the information provided (also Patxi Usobiaga), broke a hold on the route which increased the difficulty of the first pich. However, what is not said is that other 3 or 4 holds also broke apeeraing some better holds, reducing the difficulty of these sequences (all of them before that draw). In his own words, "the difficulty does not vary by the breaking of this hold because of the new holds that appear." Thus, as far as Ashima made, the degree would rather be 9a.
Another point that should be clarified is that she was the first person to send 'Open Your Mind Direct' with a broken hold, but not that part of the route. Some people, including Gonzalo Larrocha, did that part ot the route when sending "Open Your Mind' (8c +), which shares with its neighbor, but avoids the hard part of its beginning starting from "Trio Ternura'"
I'm not 100% sure what this is saying but it sounds like some locals are challenging whether Ashima actually did the 9a+ version of this route.
-
Sounds like she climbed to the large break (the height where things like Fabelita L1 finish, for those who know the cave). This is what quite a few people have done - Bolger, Matteus, Magnus to name a few. To the top of the cave is given 9a/+ I believe. Clearly the hold break seems not to change anything... So, hard 9a for what Ashima did, at a guess that puts it on a par with Punt X from Muriel in difficulty terms.
-
Don't be mean, she's only 13 ;)
-
The Guardian says 9a+
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/22/rock-climbing-ashima-shiraishi-breaking-record-spain (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/22/rock-climbing-ashima-shiraishi-breaking-record-spain)
"The route’s new grading, and therefore Ashima’s record, await consensus in a sport where top bragging rights are jealously guarded, closely scrutinised and often aggressively challenged, and routes’ grades of difficulty have an element of subjectivity.
But there seems little doubt that Open Your Mind Direct is now regarded as a 9a+ "
-
The Guardian says 9a+
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/22/rock-climbing-ashima-shiraishi-breaking-record-spain (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/22/rock-climbing-ashima-shiraishi-breaking-record-spain)
"The route’s new grading, and therefore Ashima’s record, await consensus in a sport where top bragging rights are jealously guarded, closely scrutinised and often aggressively challenged, and routes’ grades of difficulty have an element of subjectivity.
But there seems little doubt that Open Your Mind Direct is now regarded as a 9a+ "
From the comments:
Why is it OK for a thirteen year old girl to climb a sheer rock face, but not OK for a thirteen year old to take heroin? If you fall off a rock face there is not much that can be done, if you overdose on heroin there is a good chance that prompt medical attention can save the situation.
-
Interesting that the Dawn Wall stuff seems to have really increased MSM interest in climbing.
Edit - I didn't read the comments fortunately!
-
"Ahhhhh!!!! I sent my 2nd project Ciudad de Dios 9a/9a+😍😍😍 This one took me 3 days to SEND! But my fingers are bleeding now😭"
https://instagram.com/p/0lCU1OLJTL/
she needs to try a harder route!
-
At this rate, she'll end up stronger than Malc.
-
I am genuinely impressed at what she is doing and my next point has nothing to do with her/her being a girl/sour grapes/Sheffield scene/old man (it was much harder in my day) etc etc
BUT
The impressiveness of the routes in this cave is reduced for me due to them just being links of the same half dozen routes. The description of the latest one does not seem to contain anything different than the ones she has already done.
I have never been to the crag nor seen a topo so i may be totally wrong.
-
She's still doing them ridiculously quickly.
-
IIRC Directa open your mind is (one of the) a direct start to Fabelita (8c). Ciudad de Dios is the same hard start, then does the harder, alternative finish to Fabilita, Fabela (8c+). I guess the next logical step is to do the same again with the extension to the top of the cave, though not sure if that adds a grade to Ciudad - it does add a grade to Fabela.
It's just logical to do it that way there I guess.
-
Direct start to open your mind is, unsurprisingly, the direct start into open your mind, not fabelita :lol:
-
D'oh! But open your mind is like a direct finish of Fabelita, right?
-
Kind of, they share the 8a start then all the hard stuff is different.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1yf51BiRoQ
-
Nordic Flower 8c second try. some still think 8c+.
Trying Thors Hammer 9a+which would be a very impressive tick, putting her pretty much up there with the men.
-
Impressive.
In a line up I'm not sure who if you had to guess from appearance would be least likely to be a top sport climber; Ashima or Ondra.
-
Nordic Flower 8c second try. some still think 8c+.
Trying Thors Hammer 9a+which would be a very impressive tick, putting her pretty much up there with the men.
Also rather scuppers the theory that she only performs at a top level on slightly overhanging face climbing on small holds. From the pictures I get the impression that these are not stereotypical "girls' routes"
-
Its a 60m roof so your partly correct. However it is still very much an endurance route with lots and lots (and lots its massive) of easy moves so will have suited a small skinny kid who doesnt get pumped.
However Thors Hammer looks a different kettle of fish altogether, really hard boulder problems up a 45 degree wall for 20 meters then a nice little 40m 8b+ to finish up. Ondra does it in his film amd grades it 9a+, Midtbo didnt do it and thought it was 9b so i guess it is a tricky one.
If she does it it really will put her up with the top 10-15 climbers in the world. It sounds like its wet though unfortunately.
-
the rope drag on a 60m route must take quite a bit of effort for a skinny 13 year old kid
-
She can use one of those 6.5mm twin strings
-
the rope drag on a 60m route must take quite a bit of effort for a skinny 13 year old kid
You pull the rope through from a knee bar at half height to make it easier.
-
the rope drag on a 60m route must take quite a bit of effort for a skinny 13 year old kid
You pull the rope through from a knee bar at half height to make it easier.
You shouldn't teach kneebars to a young climber. They will ruin their career.
In case the young climber learns them by intuition, you should forbid their use.
-
She probably didnt need them. Pretty sure she could climb into some of the holds on it.
-
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
:D
-
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=70025
8A, 8A+ and 8B+ (second ascent) in a day. Not too shabby.
-
Day 1 of a trip to heco and she's done Terre de Sienne and Diaphanous Sea. Off to a good start.
source: https://www.facebook.com/Evolv/
-
The Wall Dancer (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/11/the-wall-dancer)
-
Sorry guys, I don't buy the "Ashima" product.
It's a terrible, terrible picture that comes out of that terrible article.
-
Can you expand on that Nibs?
-
Yes.
I've always had the feeling that she is an hyperrational adult in the body of a young girl. The way she speaks, and acts, in interviews as well, seems to me very unnatural for a girl of her age.
Years ago there were already videos of her campusing under the omnipresent eye of his father turned coach.
These father/son relationships are, for some reason, often quite suspect to me. How someone completely ignorant of general and specific training principles could want to become his son's coach and mentor is beyond me. We know since ages how dangerous campusing is for youngsters, nonetheless his father makes her campusing, or allows her to do so instead of explaining why she shouldn't.
Briefly, I don't know where Ashima ends and his father starts.
The way she was pushed to climb, the training regimen, everything makes me think that she could be the product of the worst aspects of both cultures, the Asian and American. I know that this may sound harsh, but these are my feelings about her.
It's very dangerous for a young girl to get little sleep, nonetheless she only gets 6 hours because she wants to gets A+'s at school. When she'll be in Uni maybe she'll need to sleep only 2 hours to study even more.
The rational pursuit of perfection in all material aspects of life is a very slippery path even for an adult, let alone for a girl of her age.
If you add to this all the media hype, you have the perfect product to sell.
And this disgusts me because it feels completely fake and artefact, and I don't know whether Ashima may be the maker or the "victim" of this situation, in which a young girl is idealized and idolized to be the model of a perfect individual, whithout factoring in her age and all the desires that she might even ignore because she's only seen a very little part of the picture of herself.
Children must act like children, speak like children and think like children, not like adults. I feel that at her tender age Ashima has already completely lost any relationship with her most profund self, with her unconscious mind, to concentrate only on a life of material and exterior perfection to the pleasure of her parents. And to her own pleasure probably.
These thoughts may well be wrong, and I deeply hope so for her especially, but this is how I feel about her, based on the little knowledge I have, that comes from interviews and videos and articles like the one above.
I don't like the package they're selling, and I'm not buying it.
Edited for grammar.
-
Thanks Nibs
-
You're welcome, and thank you for making me reflect over my feelings about her.
-
I agree mostly with what Nibs was saying and in certain aspects it reminds me of (and it took me a while to recall here name) Tori Allen.
Had to google to see what she was up to; interesting article.
http://www.steamboattoday.com/news/2012/oct/11/climber-tori-allen-finding-solace-steamboat-spring/
Also racking my brain to remember name of the other lass who was a high profile competition climber, dropped out of the "scene", but made a comeback recently doing some hard trad stuff.
-
Whatever your opinion, this is an article about her that i came across on her Instagram feed. I've only read the first half but it is good (as long as you remember it's written by and for non-climbers)
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/11/the-wall-dancer
And this one came up a while back and was also interesting. First time i'd come across Kai Lightner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BBF79N7uMg
-
Whatever your opinion, this is an article about her that i came across on her Instagram feed. I've only read the first half but it is good (as long as you remember it's written by and for non-climbers)
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/11/the-wall-dancer
If you scrolled up(or down depending on your forum settings) you'd see that is the one that Nibs is responding to that I'd linked the other day.
-
Sport climbing is like very primitive gymnastics for people with abnormally strong hands. Around 14-15 years is probably the best age for female climbers if they start at a reasonable early age, like 4-5 years old, and you're not afraid to break a few bones.
1968 was the last time someone >20 won the all-around women gold medal for gymnastics in the olympic games. (And you're not allowed to enter if you're <16 nowadays, when it was 15 then 15-year olds won - not taking falsified birth certificates into account)
-
Whatever your opinion, this is an article about her that i came across on her Instagram feed. I've only read the first half but it is good (as long as you remember it's written by and for non-climbers)
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/11/the-wall-dancer
If you scrolled up(or down depending on your forum settings) you'd see that is the one that Nibs is responding to that I'd linked the other day.
I did have a look but obviously missed it. My bad
-
This is obviously pretty dated, but Obe's sycophantic gushing is astonishing. IMO, she does well to come across so grounded despite being surrounded by a circus of quasi-imbeciles.
https://www.facebook.com/outsidetelevision/videos/vb.189758874031/10153462914089032/?type=2&theater (https://www.facebook.com/outsidetelevision/videos/vb.189758874031/10153462914089032/?type=2&theater)
-
Is it me, or does the Pooch seem, um, chagrined?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160314/f446b7b820a2a2a8457ae3ab7ca3a4f5.jpg)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
First female 8C and youngest ever 8C
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=70344 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=70344)
BEAST!
-
She is such a beast, great to see her still crushing as she gets older. She trains at my gym, I've just caught up with the comments on here, can understand the sentiment - but for what its worth she's clearly super focussed and loves to climb. Her father is always there at the gym, but from the limited amount of see since I have been back training, he really seems to be in the background helping guide her training. I've seen quite a few kids that have been hyped up and pushed too hard, but i think she falls in the category of those that actually do love to climb.
I think there is an interesting discussion to be had about the dangers of hyping kids in this sport. If you just look at the physics of it, when kids are light with small fingers holds are often much bigger when scaled than they are for adults. I've watched so many kids throw four fingers a pad deep on holds which would be small for adults. Holds on some problems for kids can be the size of jugs for adults when scaled. The danger in my opinion is that when hyped by the climbing media these kids hit a wall as they get older, grow etc and their strength doesn't match. Some like Ty and Ashima obviously keep getting stronger and achieve incredible things as they grow but that won't be the case for all of them and many will fail to adjust.
Personally I hate the whole 10 year old has done this etc for the reasons stated, it would be much better to leave them to climb and then when in their mid teens and reaching adulthood start to report on their achievements. Forget the grades and the pressures that come with it, let them be kids and just enjoy climbing.
-
It's pretty hard to ignore it when a 14 year old girl climbs 8C Nizza. Can't see her form tailoring off as she gets older. When you've been that good for that long you tend to stay good even with weight gain. I expect her style will just change a bit. Interesting to see how much harder than this she'll climb in years to come though. 9b is an obvious target.
-
I've got my 3 yr old on deadhangs and repeaters 3 times a day. Is that wrong?
-
I've got my 3 yr old on deadhangs and repeaters 3 times a day. Is that wrong?
Starting a bit late no?
(http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/87388868-baby-boy-hanging-on-monkey-bar-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=0FfP4UTYZ%2bKea5FVpBJhUOilvd%2bo53z2Bm9ZNUn3cRzCIHg4DxIYkzhgjidYeTLZ5rV%2fg9ZRx4uGnvIf2X3C3g%3d%3d)
It's all downhill from there...
-
I've got my 3 yr old on deadhangs and repeaters 3 times a day. Is that wrong?
I guess that depends on how much weight you are adding to the max hangs, duration of hangs and supplements used
-
Does Farley's Rusk count as a supplement?
-
It's pretty hard to ignore it when a 14 year old girl climbs 8C Nizza. Can't see her form tailoring off as she gets older. When you've been that good for that long you tend to stay good even with weight gain. I expect her style will just change a bit. Interesting to see how much harder than this she'll climb in years to come though. 9b is an obvious target.
Indeed, that was my point - she's 15 so worth covering. But when younger it can be damaging and frankly the grades mean nothing.
-
It's pretty hard to ignore it when a 14 year old girl climbs 8C Nizza. Can't see her form tailoring off as she gets older. When you've been that good for that long you tend to stay good even with weight gain. I expect her style will just change a bit. Interesting to see how much harder than this she'll climb in years to come though. 9b is an obvious target.
This 8C is ~ 30 moves isn't it? Can't be far off 9b. How does this compare to the wheel of life?
-
There's some disagreement on grade and whether the direct finish (a v4 rather than v5) makes much difference, but I think these days WOL is regarded to be somewhere around 8B+/9a.
-
WOL depends on who you talk to. Ethan Pringle seemed to think it was closer to 8B.... Route climbers vs boulderers... :worms:
I think at this point though, Ashima has surpassed the "she's a kid and has small finger/wieght/whatever..." caveat's. She's simply at the leading edge of female climbing, and if she's not already there she will shortly be alongside the boys at the leading edge of all sport/bouldering.
I find it incredibly inspiring that there are girl's/women performing at this level. :dance1: :dance1: :dance1:
-
:agree:
-
Why? It's a serious question, why do you find it inspiring what a small girl can do? You're not smaller girls so why would it inspire you?
-
Dunno... Lynn Hill is a small girl, when she freed the nose in short order, Scott Burke got inspired to a 300 day siege of the same
-
My 10 year old daughter is very much inspired by her and I think Ashima is "inspirational"; in as much as any athlete is such.
Sas has quite rightly pointed out that "girls" are rapidly closing in on their male peers at the top of the game. I use the inverted commas around girls because I feel the distinction is increasingly redundant. She is first and foremost a Climber (deliberate capitalisation) and along with many of the current crop of top climbers who happen to be female, challenging the very notion of what a female climber "should" be.
Pooch is a shit hot climber, regardless of gender, who seems to be oft criticised for being "too masculine"; when the principle difference between genders is only really that muscle mass/strength. In other words, the criticism is for developing exactly those attributes that would be much praised in a male counterpart (if we can argue safe BMI/%BF as a separate, cross gender, matter).
The fact is, they (along with their contemporaries) are PROVING that gender is not relevant and considering the centuries of second class treatment women have endured (and still endure) from us, the male, I can't see it as anything less than inspiring.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
On the flip side you've got the quote from Dave Graham that Cheque uses in his signature to keep things in perspective...
Never think you're that cool - you're still just climbing rocks...in the woods...with bugs...and everyone thinks you're crazy.
-
Plus she's releasing a new range of fashion accessories soon; Ashima's Pashminas. For the fashion conscious lady about crag.
-
Why? It's a serious question, why do you find it inspiring what a small girl can do? You're not smaller girls so why would it inspire you?
She's a climber, and I'm inspired by the feats of other climbers. I've met many small girls who can do lots of things, and they don't inspire me because the things they're doing don't inspire me.
-
when the principle difference between genders is only really that muscle mass/strength
PROVING that gender is not relevant
:-\
-
when the principle difference between genders is only really that muscle mass/strength
PROVING that gender is not relevant
:-\
....in developing those attributes...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
this could have been a tragedy:
http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-news/ashima-shiraishi-injured-in-45-foot-ground-fall (ftp://www.rockandice.com/climbing-news/ashima-shiraishi-injured-in-45-foot-ground-fall)
-
Does she still climb? Not heard any news about her in long time
-
she got 13 in the women's world cup in lead, that's not bad eh? Not everyone can be Janja Garnbret.
-
Not everyone can be Janja Garnbret.
True, but plenty of people thought Ashima was going to be.
-
She just came second or third in a pan American bouldering comp. It was won by Sierra Blair Coyle and she beat Kyra Condie who seems strong AF but that doesn't translate to comp results. So she's still competing but here trajectory seems to have levelled off or taken a dip even.
-
It's very common that the performance dips a bit while getting used to a new weight distribution. Happens to a lot of young climbers, both boys and girls. Some get over it, some not.
-
She just came second or third in a pan American bouldering comp. It was won by Sierra Blair Coyle and she beat Kyra Condie
This says it all.
-
That Pan american thing isnt much of an indicator as you would struggle to name more than 2 or 3 people in the comp. Other than Ashima there isnt a world cup finalist in the lead.
Seems like she is not finding the adult comps as easy as the american hype machine thought she would. Hopefully this is temporary though as she was something quite exciting.
Looks like she has moved to Japan as well now so focused on the olympics.