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the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: Falling Down on October 09, 2012, 08:29:04 pm

Title: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on October 09, 2012, 08:29:04 pm
The/My Black Dog?

"My biggest fear was being found out"

"He used to wake me up with repetitive and negative thinking and remind me about how tired I would be the next day"

"Activities that previously brought me pleasure suddenly ceased to" But I'm on the road to recovery.

It doesn't matter who you are, if you're in difficulty don't be afraid to ask for help, there's no shame in doing so, the only shame is missing out on life.

I had a black dog, his name was depression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc#)

At its worst, depression can be a frightening, debilitating condition. Millions of people around the world live with depression. Many of these individuals and their families are afraid to talk about their struggles, and don't know where to turn for help. However, depression is largely preventable and treatable. Recognizing depression and seeking help is the first and most critical towards recovery. In collaboration with WHO to mark

World Mental Health Day, writer and illustrator Matthew Johnstone tells the story of overcoming the "black dog of depression". For more information on World Mental Health Day, please visit: www.who.int (http://www.who.int)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Bubba on October 09, 2012, 08:51:55 pm
Nice one Ben :thumbsup:

I spent almost a decade fighting my own personal black dog and at it's worst it brought me very close to ending it all.  If you recognise yourself in this video then please try to get help or at least try talk to somebody who's been there and who understands what you're going through.   
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fatkid2000 on October 09, 2012, 09:34:00 pm
That's a great little video. I might start suggesting it to some of my patients to have a look at, particularly those who are struggling to come to terms with their diagnosis.

Depression affects anyone.

Medication is just one treatment, unfortunately the waits for talking treatments are too long and given the NHS funding cuts will only get worse.
Title: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on October 09, 2012, 10:29:59 pm
Great film. Good post FD.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Nibile on October 10, 2012, 06:33:52 am
I've met that dog as well in the past. He's terrifying.
Good post Ben.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Plattsy on October 10, 2012, 08:50:16 am
I'm currently having a dog fight with my own big dog (we've been scrapping on and off for far too long).

Spoke to a councillor for the first time earlier this year about it when I hit my lowest ebb for some time. I'd picked a place and a method of sorting it once and for all. Seemed to help a lot but circumstances have changed considerably since then (and not all for the worse either - some of the changes are great!) and it started again in the summer.
Spoke to a doctor recently (one who didn't inspire me at all - I took a printed test and scored moderately severely depressed - my diagnosis. On the bright side I could've scored worse) who advised that there was a 3 month waiting list for talking treatment. I asked about private practices he might know of. He suggested Spire hospital in Elland where, it transpires, they don't do talking therapy but I could get some testicular implants.
I was given a prescription for Citalopram (sp?) which I'm yet to get. Some of the side effects put me off.

I'm now seeing someone private.

Great post FD
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: MattW on October 10, 2012, 09:21:43 am
That's great, I don't think I've seen a better explanation of how depression can influence everything in your life that someone who has never experienced it can really understand fully.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: TobyD on October 10, 2012, 09:29:20 am
great post. I believe the images and words are from a graphic novel.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on October 10, 2012, 09:32:37 am
To further Andys excellent post - when looking for a councillor, shop around. In some ways its like making a partnership - you need to be able to feel comfortable, yet suitably challenged by them. A "yes" man or woman won't help much, but neither will someone who preaches and does not understand.

If its not working with one councillor - that doesnt mean it will not work at all - its probably just that they're not right for you... dig out the yellow pages and look around....
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 10, 2012, 10:17:58 am
great post. I believe the images and words are from a graphic novel.

can't see the vid at work, but is it the Matthew Johnson book?

There were a lot more images from the book somewhere online, but work is getting in the way at the moment

http://ihadablackdoggallery.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://ihadablackdoggallery.blogspot.co.uk/)

edit
a google images search throws up a few
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fatboySlimfast on October 10, 2012, 10:32:17 am
Quote
I'm currently having a dog fight with my own big dog (we've been scrapping on and off for far too long).
been there, almost lost as well all through fear of stigma and not talking.
Cant see vid as am at work but never be embarressed at what illness you have or your need to find help.
All the best in your fight, it does get better.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on October 10, 2012, 10:40:00 am
Yes Lagers - it looks like those cartoons/images. With an Australian voice over.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on October 10, 2012, 10:47:13 am
I read this quote recently and though it summed it up well;

 “The shadow of the Black Dog touches us all, but it is possible to master and live with your mental illness so that it no longer dominates your life. It’s easier to say that you have had a Black Dog time than that you’ve been away suffering from depression.”

I think everyone has an encounter at some point in their lives.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 10, 2012, 10:52:05 am
part of my (and plenty of others) management plan involves a daily (5 mins max) trip to moodscope.com

http://www.moodscope.com/about/how-it-works/how-does-moodscope-work (http://www.moodscope.com/about/how-it-works/how-does-moodscope-work)

basically a quick tool that scores your mood and emails the result to anyone you tell it to - it also emails the user to remind you to do your daily thing

also plots your results over time - helpful to spot trends and increase insight - it is also possible to add note to each score on the graph to explain highs/lows/inaccuarcies

at first it seems a bit trivial and gimmicky, but after a few weeks, doing the quiz becomes automatic and it actually becomes a useful and reasonably acurate measuring tool

it helps a lot
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on October 10, 2012, 11:15:11 am

Good post!

The Black Dog scratched at my door for a while,  seems to have buggered off thankfully.  Talking helped, but for me I think it was exercise that sorted it.  I hear him barking outside occasionally, but I seem to be able to ignore him (thankfully). 
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Plattsy on October 10, 2012, 11:45:35 am
Gonna be checking out that moodscope Lagers ta...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on October 10, 2012, 11:49:13 am
for me I think it was exercise that sorted it. 

Being so used to getting out an doing stuff outdoors for many years, lack of exercise, endorphins and sunshine bring it on for me, especially combined with SADs.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: iain on October 10, 2012, 01:43:15 pm
Great thread  :thumbsup: and I really like the vid/book.

After 25 years of periodically suffering with it the largest black dog of my life turned up late last year and I finally went looking for help. The local NHS offering was woeful so I found someone who helped me through the worst of it.

The keys for me have been acknowledging the problem, challenging the unhelpful thinking and learning how to quiet my mind, (exercise plays a part in that.)

For management the books from these have helped a lot:
http://www.llttf.com/ (http://www.llttf.com/)
http://mbct.co.uk/about-mbct/#about1 (http://mbct.co.uk/about-mbct/#about1)
There's some good science to back up both.

I do a daily mindfulness/meditation using:
http://www.getsomeheadspace.com/ (http://www.getsomeheadspace.com/)
and they have a mobile app, (I'm sure others are available)
There's no omm'ing, no bullshit, just learning how to let the mind settle.

To further Andys excellent post - when looking for a councillor, shop around. In some ways its like making a partnership - you need to be able to feel comfortable, yet suitably challenged by them. A "yes" man or woman won't help much, but neither will someone who preaches and does not understand.

If its not working with one councillor - that doesnt mean it will not work at all - its probably just that they're not right for you... dig out the yellow pages and look around....
This is so important, and I like the link Lagers.

I'm currently having a dog fight with my own big dog (we've been scrapping on and off for far too long).
Stick with it, I hope things improve soon.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 10, 2012, 02:12:18 pm
Having some convincing science to back up whatever dog training you end up with is important

A good talking therapist should explain their techniques in terms that the client/patient understands - giving them good grounds to believe that the techniques will work and some estimation as to why/how they will work. If this doesn't happen near the beginning, it's probably time to try another therapist/therapy, or at least ask them to explain themselves better.

Self help should be similarly grounded

putting in regular effort is mostly what works. However, motivating oneself to do this in the first place isn't so straightforward - that's what talking is good for. Talking is also good for planning where/how the effort should be focussed. Us humans tend not to be too good at seeing the wood for the trees when dealing with our own minds.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fatkid2000 on October 10, 2012, 02:36:54 pm
This Australian website is good.

It's a kind of self done - cognitive based therapy. I've had some patients who think its great, others not so keen.

https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome (https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome)

Exercise is interesting - lots of people feel it helps, the recent clinical evidence is less encouraging of its role. I still tell people to do some.

Citalopram is the first line anti-depressant. It works - however the side effects usually in week one to two do wear off.

Unfortunately the NHS can't provide what everyone needs. If you're seeing your GP for the first time - ask the reception guard who's good to see, they know. Also ask for a double appointment - I need at least 20 mins on a first consult, and usually get people back in within a week and certainly before prescribing. Yesterday's morning surgery was 4 new presentations of depression mixed with anxiety - by patient 4 I was pretty mentally exhausted. So if the first GP you see seems rubbish give them a second chance of try someone else. That's why GPs work In groups - we're all different
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fatkid2000 on October 10, 2012, 02:42:51 pm
BTw - that printed test known as a PHQ 9 is a common test - it's forced on GPs to do.

It's a shit test but the DoH won't take out of assessment.

It massively over and under estimates depression levels & every GP I know hates it. If we don't do it our clinical performance indicators drop. I and a lot of GPs fill it in once the patient has left.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 10, 2012, 03:29:59 pm
reducing alcohol intake can be very important

I don't know why the link between alcohol and depression isn't more widely advertised

however the value of moderate social drinking (pub therapy) shouldn't be underestimated (I'm not a doctor etc...)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fatkid2000 on October 10, 2012, 04:02:04 pm
reducing alcohol intake can be very important

I don't know why the link between alcohol and depression isn't more widely advertised

however the value of moderate social drinking (pub therapy) shouldn't be underestimated (I'm not a doctor etc...)

And if you're on anti-depressants prevents them working effectively.
It's amazing how many people find their mood picks up when they reduce their alcohol use to under 10 units ( not just those with a formal diagnosis)

One interesting thing is S.Yorks has some of the highest levels of anti-depressant prescribing in the UK - the highest specific area being Rotherham.

Although not always the case there does seem to be an increasing amount of turning to anti-depressants to deal with life events. Some of us and I'm in that group are starting to worry about the levels of prescribing and that we may be storing up problems for the future - similar to the problems caused by benzo . These meds take 2 months to work at least - then you need to be on them for 6 months with a stable mood before considering stopping, hence the average prescription length being 2 years in the UK currently.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 10, 2012, 04:43:38 pm
that's 10 units a week for those of you who were thinking that 3 pints of stella a day sounded easily achievable

for some people the depression or low mood that is due to the alcohol doesn't lift immediately

there can be a delay of a few weeks (sometimes a lot more) before the alcohol induced part of their depression lifts

this can be particularly frustrating, leaving them without the crutch/escape that booze was providing, yet feeling as low as ever - it's a difficult period to ride out and of course the rest of the depression will still be there


Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Bubba on October 10, 2012, 06:51:28 pm
I was given a prescription for Citalopram (sp?) which I'm yet to get. Some of the side effects put me off.
When my depression escalated to depression + anxiety/panic attacks (fun!) my prescription was switched from Prozac to Citalopram.  As well as it addressing the panic quite well, I found it far less intrusive than the Prozac - it didn't make me feel quite as "drugged" and didn't affect my libido as much. I found it a great help.

Citalopram is the first line anti-depressant. It works - however the side effects usually in week one to two do wear off.
I can confirm that this was my experience.  After the first 5 days or so of feeling a little weird with strange pins and needles, etc the side-effects were no longer noticeable.

then you need to be on them for 6 months with a stable mood before considering stopping, hence the average prescription length being 2 years in the UK currently.
Personally I'd also recommend reducing the dose for a period before stopping altogether though I'm not sure there's any medical evidence for this.  The first time I tried to stop (Prozac) I did it too suddenly and I fell back down again.  When I was eventually successful (took a few goes) I scaled down to a half dose for a couple of months before stopping, and also timed the stop with coincide with the onset of summer.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Will Hunt on October 10, 2012, 09:15:19 pm
A good post. I'm lucky that I've never experienced depression, though don't have a completely clean slate when it comes to anxiety and panic.
I was irritated recently when travelling to work and listening to the radio that some gross ignorance regarding depression went unchallenged. The caller to the Today programme, when asked about benefits, brushed depression off as "we all get a bit down sometimes, you still got to go out to work". Education on depression and common mental illnesses should really be a part of education in the most basic sense as is the case with more physically tangible illnesses. Perhaps then people will seek help sooner.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: psychomansam on October 10, 2012, 10:46:23 pm
This Australian website is good.

It's a kind of self done - cognitive based therapy. I've had some patients who think its great, others not so keen.

https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome (https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome)

Exercise is interesting - lots of people feel it helps, the recent clinical evidence is less encouraging of its role. I still tell people to do some

Cheers for this. I've just signed up and done the first bit. Bought a CBT book a while back but could never be bothered to read it (hehe).
Just started a new job, under massive pressure at the moment and as usual not dealing well with the stress. While I might have logical causes for my anxiety, I know my thought processes don't help.

Today was the worst day yet this time round. I was working from home and ended up feeling too anxious to work for the majority of the day. Have just been for a run and done a stilling exercise (for the first time in a very long time).

The stress has aggravated my gastritis over the last few weeks. I'm now on a better drug and on the waiting list for an endoscopy. I can hardly run at the moment as now it's this bad, that further aggravates it. One of many ways in which mental problems can easily become physical ones.

As other people have said, a mental illness is
A. normal
B. just as real as a physical one.

In fact, the shortsightedness, impinged shoulder, achilles tendonitis, gastritis, minor infection and  cold at the minute aren't stopping me working or severely effecting my quality of life. The anxiety is.

This is great:
http://www.ted.com/talks/ruby_wax_what_s_so_funny_about_mental_illness.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/ruby_wax_what_s_so_funny_about_mental_illness.html)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on October 10, 2012, 11:07:32 pm
Glad to see my post has prompted such a positive response.

I'm no Doctor (well I am but not a medical one) but I was surprised to learn that depression and anxiety are manifestation of a physical illness of the limbic system rather than a mental disorder and that SSRI meds are not doping pills but address some physical processes that impact and effect mood and physiology.

  This book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Depressive-Illness-Curse-Strong-3rd/dp/1847092357/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349905964&sr=1-1) is really good written by a GP and should be required reading by anyone suffering and their close family members. 

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Plattsy on October 11, 2012, 08:44:58 am
I was given a prescription for Citalopram (sp?) which I'm yet to get. Some of the side effects put me off.
When my depression escalated to depression + anxiety/panic attacks (fun!) my prescription was switched from Prozac to Citalopram.  As well as it addressing the panic quite well, I found it far less intrusive than the Prozac - it didn't make me feel quite as "drugged" and didn't affect my libido as much. I found it a great help.
Had my first panic attack for about 10 years at my desk in the office on the 18 September. Even though I'm no old hand at these things I could feel it coming. I adopted a "bring it on" approach and rode it out. Luckily no one came over and bothered me during else it could've been messy. Not had one since *touch wood*

The libido side effect was a concern when I read about it being temporary. However upon reading about some people having a permanent loss I drew a line. Reading Falling Down's comment on the Limbic system, I'm now re-evaluating that decision and once I've had chance to research/read more I'll make another decision on it.

Glad to see my post has prompted such a positive response.

I'm no Doctor (well I am but not a medical one) but I was surprised to learn that depression and anxiety are manifestation of a physical illness of the limbic system rather than a mental disorder and that SSRI meds are not doping pills but address some physical processes that impact and effect mood and physiology.

  This book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Depressive-Illness-Curse-Strong-3rd/dp/1847092357/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349905964&sr=1-1) is really good written by a GP and should be required reading by anyone suffering and their close family members. 
Bought and due tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Plattsy on October 11, 2012, 09:04:16 am
I can hardly run at the moment

Is walking alright? Get out as much as you can pal.

Edit: Make sure you get at least 30mins lunch at work for a stroll.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on October 11, 2012, 09:30:38 am
Are low Seratonin levels linked to depression?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Plattsy on October 11, 2012, 09:38:05 am
I believe so. The doctor I saw recently said "There are a group of people who seem to naturally produce lower than normal levels of seratonin". I've not got around to verifying this statement however.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fatkid2000 on October 11, 2012, 11:18:16 am
Good post for Bubba:

Prozac (fluoxetine) is not often used first line these days - I use it those that had been on it in the past.

Weaning off is a ticky questions. The pharmacologists tell us that we can just stop them & people should get rebound depression. THat's not my experience and I wean doses down over 4-8 weeks patient dependant. Again I do this in spring / summer - slight witch craft medicine but people don't do well stopping in the middle of winter.

Psychoman - I would guess your gastritis is all linked to your mood. Its common for people to suffer with this with mood disorders. Or get IBS - which is how some people stress and anxiety presents itself. Would be worth taking a ppi as the anti-depressants also cause gastritis.

I've never hear about a group who produce naturally low level of serotonin - sounds like rubbish to me. I'll ask our mental health lead - he knows all the latest evidence. SSRi anti-depressant block the enzyme that breaks serotonin down - hence increase the brain levels.

In my experience the libido loss in temporary - all who have experienced this side-effect have recovered. It's probably more the persistant low mood which is affecting libido than the medication side-effects.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Monolith on October 11, 2012, 11:28:28 am
Had my first panic attack for about 10 years at my desk in the office on the 18 September. Even though I'm no old hand at these things I could feel it coming. I adopted a "bring it on" approach and rode it out. Luckily no one came over and bothered me during else it could've been messy. Not had one since *touch wood*

That's precisely the strategy that started helping me out of a long bout of them Plattsy. Visualisation and an acceptance that it was my mind generating them not my body became key to getting rid. At the peak of attacks I wound up in hospital for a few days strapped to an ECG but I think that particular bout was exacerbated due to consumption of a LOT of vodka and Dr Pepper (obviously high in caffeine) and about 30 odd hours of scrolling japanese shoot em up games (hallucinated for days!). "What's the worst that could happen?". I wasn't particularly grateful for being placed in a room with two men in the late stages of lung cancer whilst I was being monitored I can tell you!

I know the feeling very well you talk of Plattsy where anybody asking "are you ok?" makes you almost explode with anger. I still get like this every single time I have a blood test (go white, sweaty as hell, incomprehensible, angry). I wish you all the best with ridding yourself of anxiety.

Again, as others have said, copious amounts of exercise certainly worked for me in conjunction with a reduction in alcohol consumption.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slackline on October 11, 2012, 11:35:44 am
I've never hear about a group who produce naturally low level of serotonin - sounds like rubbish to me.

Conversely I'd be very surprised if everyone produced exactly the same amount of serotonin, so there will always be natural variation (most likely distributed under a gaussian/normal distribution) so there will be some who are 'low' and some who are 'high' and the majority of people will be 'normal'.


Never got on with citalopram myself but was lucky (and still am) to have employers that provide counselling which helped.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Plattsy on October 11, 2012, 12:04:41 pm
Had my first panic attack for about 10 years at my desk in the office on the 18 September. Even though I'm no old hand at these things I could feel it coming. I adopted a "bring it on" approach and rode it out. Luckily no one came over and bothered me during else it could've been messy. Not had one since *touch wood*

That's precisely the strategy that started helping me out of a long bout of them Plattsy. Visualisation and an acceptance that it was my mind generating them not my body became key to getting rid. At the peak of attacks I wound up in hospital for a few days strapped to an ECG but I think that particular bout was exacerbated due to consumption of a LOT of vodka and Dr Pepper (obviously high in caffeine) and about 30 odd hours of scrolling japanese shoot em up games (hallucinated for days!). "What's the worst that could happen?". I wasn't particularly grateful for being placed in a room with two men in the late stages of lung cancer whilst I was being monitored I can tell you!

I know the feeling very well you talk of Plattsy where anybody asking "are you ok?" makes you almost explode with anger. I still get like this every single time I have a blood test (go white, sweaty as hell, incomprehensible, angry). I wish you all the best with ridding yourself of anxiety.

Again, as others have said, copious amounts of exercise certainly worked for me in conjunction with a reduction in alcohol consumption.
Recently when I'm at work and someone asks "are you ok" I'm on the verge of tears and outside work I get irritated which then goes close to anger.

Reducing my alcohol consumption is my next step. Over the weekend I put away far too much ~27 pints and a bottle of wine (birthday party Friday, steady one Saturday and birthday party Sunday afternoon). Hit it hard on Friday after a proper rubbish head week.

I'm running tonight and off to Scotland for a long weekend of walking.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Monolith on October 11, 2012, 12:17:46 pm
There's a lot to be said for heading to the hills to get some head space. All the best with everything mate.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: psychomansam on October 11, 2012, 05:30:42 pm

Psychoman - I would guess your gastritis is all linked to your mood. Its common for people to suffer with this with mood disorders. Or get IBS - which is how some people stress and anxiety presents itself. Would be worth taking a ppi as the anti-depressants also cause gastritis.


Cheers for the advice, though I'm not on antidepressants and won't even consider it, although I have considered St. Johns Wart. I went through anti-depressant withdrawal after being a healthy volunteer on a clinical trial, and wouldn't want to do that again. I was only on it for 3 weeks and the withdrawal was horrendous. They said we shouldn't have any effects after such a short time! What a fecking piss-take. Anti-depressants also sometimes don't do well against placebo, and if I was to go for something for sake of it, I'd go for one with less side effects(and no patent, since I hate drug patent law), i.e. the wort.

I'm on a PPI already, Lansoprazole 30 once a day although take it twice sometimes when it gets too painful. Symptoms are certainly worsened by stress. Waiting for an endoscopy at which point they'll probably just up my dose.

And Plattsy, cheers for the thought. I'm a new schoolteacher and have no chance of taking a lunch break. The problem is more about how to switch off at other times. Exercise is normally my lifesaver, but recently not been able to do too much with gastritis. Thankfully the local wall is a lifeline!

Feeling much better today after coming off quite well in the 'work scrutiny' (headteacher and head of department come into my class, take out 4 students, quiz them and check their books to see if I've been doing my job well enough). I still have a lesson to plan and then teach, marking to do, reports to write  and a 1500 word essay to write before I can even start revising for my first Masters exam. Which is on Monday. But hey, we're making progress and after the next two weeks, my schedule settles down a lot and I don't have so many deadlines.

And if OFSTED decide to turn up, they can fuck off and eat shit.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on October 11, 2012, 05:52:19 pm

Reading this all with hindsight - seems that alcohol reduction my well have played a part for me too.  It was co-incidental as it happens.  Shortly after being made redundant (I feel for you guys still Plattsy!!) the first thing to do was pull in the purse strings which meant not buying 12 bottles of cobra, 3 red and 3 white in Tescos every week. 
This lead to virtually no weekday evening drinking, healthy weight loss and in hindsight, possibly a general lift of my mood (oh and a healthier bank balance).
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Plattsy on January 10, 2013, 12:43:38 pm
Just a bit of an update on this for anyone interested....

Currently I'm feeling much better about life. Found some joie de vivre so to speak and I'm hanging on to it.

I managed to drag myself out of the heavy depression side of things with exercise. I threw myself into it with the mentallity of "fuck it, I'm gonna do it even if I don't want to do it". Mostly running with some walking over a period of 2/3 weeks. The trip to Scotland helped a lot. Especially the  euphoria of my first runners high I received when the sun peeped through the cloud on the summit of Beinn Bhuidhe. After 3 hours of pushing myself hard to the top the clag was disappointing but I felt good for the exercise and then the sun appeared. Whoosh went the dolphins!

What I found interesting was that the depression had been "hiding" some anxieties. These came to the fore and became a different hurdle all together. Speaking with my councillor has been great and slowly I've started to work on these.

One thing I'm doing is not fighting the feelings of anxiety. I'm starting to "feel" my anxiety and monitor it. A blogger who I thought made a lot of sense said "The more I feel it the less I felt it". This actually helped pretty much clear it up before Christmas but the stress of Christmas brought them back but not as much. Progress.

Had my first professional chat session of the year last night and it went great. Feeling so much more positive about most things. I know I'm not quite out of the woods but I don't have another one booked for another 3 weeks and between now and then I'll have ripped up the Italian Alps on my board for a week (even planning a couple o three nights with little or no booze :o ). Can't wait.

I've set myself some goals for the year. Which cover bouldering, running and travel. Let's see how I do.

I'm happy to receive PMs on this if someone wants a chat/vent.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: csurfleet on February 14, 2013, 09:11:03 am
So, after reading all the stuff in this thread, I started using moodscope. At first I'll admit, I found it not only useless but also incredibly patronising (that couple of paragraphs of 'analysis' was making me angry!), but after recording a score 28 times I have to admit that it is helping. I've been holding a steady 44-46% over the last 5 days, which is great as I tend to yo-yo quite a bit - I think my statistical mind is taking on the results of the graph and convincing me :)

Thanks for the thread guys, properly appreciated :clap2:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: crimp on February 14, 2013, 09:46:37 am
Just found this thread through last post.

I know none of you really know me. Just thought id say Hi,and if anyone wants to discuss anything to do with this on forum or pm me, that's cool.

I've been on maximum dose of prozac for about 18 years. Tricyclic antidepressants before that. Been through various talking therapies including CBT.

i don't wish to into details right now, but happy to share my experiences and offer support about medication, therapies, etc, where i can.

Shaun
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: GCW on February 14, 2013, 09:52:18 am
Prozac (fluoxetine) is not often used first line these days - I use it those that had been on it in the past.

Interestingly, I've begun using this more often now as it (anecdotally) seems to be better tolerated (plus the new QT issues with citalopram have modified my practice).

Although I tenf to go for sertraline first line, or maybe mirtazepine if sleep is a significant issue.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: magpie on February 14, 2013, 10:07:25 am

Reading this all with hindsight - seems that alcohol reduction may well have played a part for me too... virtually no weekday evening drinking, healthy weight loss and in hindsight, possibly a general lift of my mood
Nothing has helped me with my anxiety issues more than chucking drinking and caffeine, I can't beleive what a difference it's made and I was never a heavy user of either at all but cutting them out totally and exercising more has made a world of difference.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slackline on November 21, 2013, 04:00:34 pm
Anti-depressants : over-prescription and side-effects (http://www.theguardian.com/society/video/2013/nov/20/taking-tablets-personal-guide-anti-depressants-video)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on November 25, 2013, 07:07:14 pm
I'm tapering off 20mg of Citalopram that I started last April.  I have a week of 10mg to go then down to 5mg for a couple of months.

No side effects tapering off and I definitely feel more like 'me'.  Just started in the gym again after 18 months of doing bugger all; libido has improved  :lets_do_it_wild: and I'm just more engaged with everything. 

Going on the Cit was a literal lifesaver and I would recommend it to anyone with moderate/severe depression where the non prescriptive therapies (exercise, St. John's wort, CBT) aren't really working.

Now I just need to shift the 18lbs I've put on in the last year and a half.   :strongbench:
Title: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: chillax on November 25, 2013, 08:56:26 pm
Great thread. Had my own battles for a lot of last year and early this year. Climbing was good as a tonic for the most negative feelings at the time. Particularly aid soloing, which was all consuming enough to drown things out for a few days. Didn't really start to see the positive side of life until talking to a counsellor and finding myself in relationship I'm really happy about. I know the potential is always there and have to be aware of that, but right now things are going pretty well.

Thanks to all you guys for being so open. It's taken me a few years to be able to tell people that depression hits every now and then, but I'm amazed by how many people have had similar experiences.


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Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: jimbob on November 26, 2013, 12:21:47 am
Thank you to everyone who has posted here.

Earlier this year I was diagnosed with bi polar 1.

In my life I've had 3 major psychotic episodes, followed by major depressions - not easy - a bit like being hit by a barrage of cruise missiles, then being left to pick up the pieces.

The highs of mania are indescribable - sometimes like being on the best E you've ever had, constantly for three months, other times totally terrifying.  The delusions are totally out there. I have lived in real life episodes of the most fantastic sci-fi thriller imaginable - think The Matrix / Bourne Ultimatum / Alien / Return of the Jedi / Goodfellas. Each mania has landed me in a situation involving the police and then a psychiatric hospital.

The depression that follows mania is terrible. That's it - simply terrible. Complete isolation and darkness. Alone. In February this year I decided I had to look for help, I was drinking heavily, had no job, very rarely saw my friends, life was shit. I was rock bottom. I had to find help.  So I went to my GP; after a few meetings with him, I was lined up to meet a consultant. He told me I was bi polar, and recommended that I start a course of lithium, which I would then have to take for the rest of my life. I asked him what the side effects were: my hair might fall out, I'd gain weight by 30 to 40 %, my hands would constantly tremble (for which I'd have to take another medication), I'd be constantly thirsty. This was all he could offer. I thought - fuck that. I had to get better myself. So, I stopped drinking, stopped smoking, and went to the climbing wall. Twelve months earlier, prior to the psychosis, I had been in the shape of my life, training regularly and climbing very well; so I jumped back into a training routine determined to get my head out of the sand - and injured a pulley tendon really badly, doh ! So I started running and hill walking. By June I was up to about 20 miles on my hill runs, and decided to prepare for the Bob Graham round. At the end of September, on a perfect day, I completed the Bob Graham. I am now back at the wall - albeit jug pulling, but having a good time; have returned to study at college, and got a part time job. 

I am not anti medication - but I believe the complete healing experience must include a lot more: Optimum nutritional strategies - a wide variety of natural wholefoods, and avoiding processed foods; reducing or eliminating alcohol and caffeine; regular exercise; sunshine; and most of all - positive engagement with people who understand what is being experienced and can provide genuine care. I found that I had to look outside my usual social group of family and friends to find understanding, which was very tough, as they are the people I wanted to understand. Most people are clueless about bi polar and depression, it is still very much a no-go subject for many, as I am sure others on this thread would testify.

Being depressed or having bi polar does not make us 'weak' - in fact anyone who has endured a major episode of psychosis or depression, or has to live with a metal health disorder is actually very strong. Being able to write about my experience here is liberating !  It's not very often that I get to 'talk' freely with my peers. So, thank you again for sharing your experiences - you are all awesome.

I found the collection of videos on Youtube - bipolar or waking up - very useful.  :thumbsup:

 
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: shurt on November 26, 2013, 01:36:45 am
Lithium sounds grim but am sure it can help some people. Feels like you dodged a bullet there by going down a different route. Diet, exercise and the right people around you are so important. I hope things continue in a good way for you; I thought your post was really honest, nice one.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on November 26, 2013, 09:14:54 am
If you struggle to tolerate Lithium, you could discuss trying Depakote with your Doctor.
It has a better side effect profile, however it isn't always as effecting in controlling the mood swings for some people.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: jimbob on November 26, 2013, 12:27:56 pm
Lithium sounds grim but am sure it can help some people. Feels like you dodged a bullet there by going down a different route. Diet, exercise and the right people around you are so important. I hope things continue in a good way for you; I thought your post was really honest, nice one.

Yeh - you might be right about the bullet dodging. I know that Lithium has helped many, many people with bi polar over the past several decades, and remains an anchor for some who can not find another way of living with their condition.  For now, I am determined to use food as my medicine and not become dependent on powerful meds.  Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on November 26, 2013, 01:59:51 pm
Not sure what else I can say other than good luck with the struggle, and keep on fighting. The sun always rises on another day........
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on November 26, 2013, 07:45:26 pm
Lithium sounds grim but am sure it can help some people. Feels like you dodged a bullet there by going down a different route. Diet, exercise and the right people around you are so important. I hope things continue in a good way for you; I thought your post was really honest, nice one.

Yeh - you might be right about the bullet dodging. I know that Lithium has helped many, many people with bi polar over the past several decades, and remains an anchor for some who can not find another way of living with their condition.  For now, I am determined to use food as my medicine and not become dependent on powerful meds.  Thanks for the reply.

My experience  tells me that this may end in tears. If your illness lands you in hospital I very much doubt diet alone will keep your mood stable, but that's your decision to make.
I hope I'm wrong for your sake.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: shurt on November 26, 2013, 08:00:23 pm
Lithium sounds grim but am sure it can help some people. Feels like you dodged a bullet there by going down a different route. Diet, exercise and the right people around you are so important. I hope things continue in a good way for you; I thought your post was really honest, nice one.

Yeh - you might be right about the bullet dodging. I know that Lithium has helped many, many people with bi polar over the past several decades, and remains an anchor for some who can not find another way of living with their condition.  For now, I am determined to use food as my medicine and not become dependent on powerful meds.  Thanks for the reply.

My experience  tells me that this may end in tears. If your illness lands you in hospital I very much doubt diet alone will keep your mood stable, but that's your decision to make.
I hope I'm wrong for your sake.

I think that someone trying to not take drugs to get over mental health problems is to be applauded and supported (rather than saying it will all end in tears). In many cases its also a much harder road to go down but can be more sustainable in the long term and with less side effects. Facing up to your own behavior that could be contributing to your condition and making changes is incredibly difficult. Far more so than taking a pill. From what I read there was a lot more going on than just a change in diet. The drugs will always be there as an option.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: jimbob on November 26, 2013, 09:42:09 pm
Having a mental health disorder - bi polar, depression, PTSD, or any of the many different 'types' of 'disorder' is very tough, especially in this modern era of conformity and stereotypes. Sometimes what might be labelled a 'disorder' might simply be a person having a perfectly natural experience which is needed for them to go through personal emotional change. Modern Western society is too quick to apply labels. So, once we are labelled with a 'disorder', that's it -, we forever live under the stereotype of someone who has a 'disorder'. There is a striking injustice here, to me some of the most beautiful insights into life experienced during psychosis, and also during depression, are written off as 'madness'. Without going into a huge long spiel here, and I'm not trying to be no Agony Auntie,  I'll just say this: it is likely that someone you know, maybe even you, will feel depressed or a bit too high at some point in their life. Don't judge them, and don't judge yourself. Try to connect with others more, or be more open yourself - people will listen. Don't be afraid of feeling different, it's OK.

As far as I'm concerned, my bi polar is, at times, a major pain in the ass (and has nearly cost me my life), but I accept that it a part of who I am. These guys at Soteria have some great ideas:

 http://www.soterianetwork.org.uk/ (http://www.soterianetwork.org.uk/)

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: shurt on November 27, 2013, 12:44:12 am
Was talking to my partner earlier about similar. Our society doesn't like people who aren't considered normal. Give them a label and dose them up and they won't bother anyone. It's not very compassionate.

Also no one is one thing for their whole life. People change. Labels can be hard for people to shake off...

On a personal note I've never had anti depressants although have had problems with depression on and off for 20 odd years. I don't doubt they could have been useful but have found out a lot about myself during bad times which I might not have on the drugs. Friends who have had them say they feel numb and find it hard to feel highs as well as lows.
Title: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on November 27, 2013, 08:09:38 am

Was talking to my partner earlier about similar. Our society doesn't like people who aren't considered normal. Give them a label and dose them up and they won't bother anyone. It's not very compassionate.

Also no one is one thing for their whole life. People change. Labels can be hard for people to shake off...

On a personal note I've never had anti depressants although have had problems with depression on and off for 20 odd years. I don't doubt they could have been useful but have found out a lot about myself during bad times which I might not have on the drugs. Friends who have had them say they feel numb and find it hard to feel highs as well as lows.

I've been on Fluoxitine (on and off) for the past 4 years or so. And in the early '90s during a bout of PTSD (then only a syndrome and much harder to get help for than a Disorder).
Despite the scare stories (it's also known as Prozac) I've never experienced any side effects.
It is not a drug per se. More of a supplement for your natural serotonin.
I've always felt much more ME on it, more in control. My depression manifests in anger.

This is not good.

The drug is not narcotic in any way and simply brings the body chemistry back to "normal", mitigating some of the viscous cycle that's is depression and it's physiological effects, that lead to deeper depression.

As I understand (and there are plenty of Medics on here to set me straight), this drug has a reputation for leading to suicidal actions with certain people. I further am lead to believe this is based mainly on anecdotal scare stories from the US in the '90s and on little real study.
This means GPs are reluctant to prescribe it to anyone who has expressed any form of suicidal thoughts.
Since such thoughts are pretty standard for anyone with depression (even "normal" people get such thoughts from time to time), a lot of people who may benefit from this treatment, don't get it...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on November 27, 2013, 08:54:55 am
to me some of the most beautiful insights into life experienced during psychosis, and also during depression, are written off as 'madness

They say madness and genius are closely related?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on November 27, 2013, 09:05:15 am
medication can be useful as a way of buying you some time while you sort other stuff out - feeling numb for a while is probably better than being dead

ever so slightly slightly off topic: I was lucky enough to get a paid place on one of Ron Coleman's courses in 2005ish. A good mix of people with different mental health symptoms and workers. He presented a pragmatic approach to dealing with psychosis, voices, personality disorders etc (including depression along the way). A guided, well facilitated discussion about the role of medication was part of the course. the whole thing funny as fook. think an overweight Billy Connolly presenting well thought out stuff interspersed with well presented anecdotes about mental health treatment. A lot of laughing was involved - no "ice breaker" shit needed. the words "recovery" and "person centered" may have been used a lot, but that was the fashion at the time (and probably still is). Worth attending his stuff if you get the chance. No idea about evidence etc

My experience  tells me that this may end in tears.
I have less experience, but it tells me the same thing. However, the people for whom it does work don't turn up at mainstream services very often.... I'm not a doctor, scientist or statitician etc etc

I have, at times, been sorely tempted to buy Truehope stuff, but excersize, meds and real food have been enough so far
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: shurt on November 27, 2013, 10:59:20 am
Just to be clear I don't think medication is bad or doesn't have its place, I'm sure it is (as Mr lager said) a lifesaver it lots of situations.
My larger gripe is that I don't think the approach to dealing with mental illness in this country is particularly great.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on November 27, 2013, 09:29:48 pm
FD, do you think the weight gain has been due to the C-pram?? Or just due to putting on massive slabs of muscle from deadlifting cars etc?

Also please tell me if you notice any difference going from 10mg to eventually zero. I was on 20mg for 2 years and have been on 10mg for 2 years.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on November 27, 2013, 11:08:00 pm
I've not done any exercise at all apart from the odd bike ride and climbing trip for nearly two years so that's probably the reason.  My weight gain is all fat.  It'll shift though.  It's hard to say though whether the Cit made me lazier or whether I was just knackered / being easy on myself because of the divorce and big life changes.  I suspect a complex relationship between the two & I think a bit of mammalian hibernation/self preservation kicked in.  My energy levels are definitely higher though and I'm eating less and healthier food too. 

I'll let you know how the taper goes.

Lagers "medication can be useful as a way of buying you some time while you sort other stuff out - feeling numb for a while is probably better than being dead" - this is very true.  As Matt said, SSRIs aren't sedatives, but a means of getting Serotonin levels back to where they should be.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: jimbob on November 27, 2013, 11:14:43 pm
I'd also like to be clear about my view on medication.

Medication can be very useful in helping those suffering from a mental health problem. In the past I have taken anti psychotics to control  potentially disastrous situations - and I am very thankful to the health professionals who cared for me when I was very unwell. And very true indeed - better on meds than dead.  However, medication is not panacea. As I've already said, a complete healing strategy must include nutrition and exercise; sunshine;  and the support of good friends and family.

The biggest problem with mental health is that society finds it very hard to talk about it in a positive, constructive and open way. Depression, bi polar and the rest may well be the last taboo. I know from first hand experience how difficult it can be to talk about my 'illness'. After my first episode 17 years ago, I am only now building up the courage to share my experiences with anyone other than a counselor. It has been very hard: A - dealing with the highs and lows of bi polar, and B - living with the stigma that comes with being labelled 'different'.  There is a massive lack of awareness in our society when it comes to mental health. And for those of us who do suffer - finding real, long term help can be nigh on impossible, and it takes real balls to keep our heads above water. I was faced with two options: live the rest of my life hiding who I really am, and pretending that I'm normal - and become increasingly disfunctional as  a result; or, try and make some headway, particularly with those around me who I love dearly and have shared my life with, but have no idea what I have actually been through, and are afraid to even consider talking about it with me.  I think a belief exists that 'real men' don't have emotional problems, mmmmm, really ? Frank Bruno (bi polar), Ricky Hatton (depression), Graeme Obree (depression) - all dedicated World class athletes who have shared publicly their mental health stories, I recommend in particular Obree's autobiography 'The Flying Scotsman', brilliant. And were it not for the amazing creative powers, catalysed by bi polar, of the following artists, we may never have had the joy of hearing their music: Beethoven, Nina Simone, The Beach Boys, Nirvana, Sinatra..................

The very fact that this thread exists is fantastic, it shows that the climbing community is accepting and prepared to listen. So thank you very much.  Fellow climbers - I salute you !
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on December 09, 2013, 10:37:55 am
http://www.upworthy.com/what-is-depression-let-this-animation-with-a-dog-shed-light-on-it (http://www.upworthy.com/what-is-depression-let-this-animation-with-a-dog-shed-light-on-it)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: psychomansam on December 09, 2013, 11:20:05 am
It's great to be able to watch that video and just not identify with it in the way I would have at so many other points in the last 5 or 6 years. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

On the other hand, stress is currently killing me! My health is shot and I'm counting down the months until I can hand in my notice. I don't know what's next, but hopefully it'll be more manageable!

Still need to get better at both preventing and dealing with stress though.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on January 13, 2014, 11:17:11 am
What is the panel's verdict on swapping from low-dose SSRIs to 5-HTP?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on January 13, 2014, 12:14:08 pm
I'd read some info about it online. I was suggested it as a sleep aid, then read some of the internet info about it, and stayed clear. My 5p worth anyway.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fatkid2000 on January 13, 2014, 06:36:41 pm
As far as I am aware there is no clinical data to back its use.
Think cochrane looked at it and concluded no use.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: mark. on January 13, 2014, 06:52:27 pm
I used exercise to combat the symptoms of depression since I can remember, I became a pretty good competitive club runner through it I guess, in the end though it wasn't enough and luckily a friend convinced me to get some medical help about a year ago.
I think endorphins can help sufferers with mild symptoms but more serious depression needs some extra help. :)


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Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on January 14, 2014, 11:53:35 am
Still need to get better at both preventing and dealing with stress though.

Steve Peters (sports-psychologist to the GB cycling team) has a book you may have heard of called Chimp Paradox. It's very self-help'y and a lot of it I'm not keen on,  but I thought the sections on dealing with work and personal-life stress contained useful practical information on how to mind-manage stressors.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fatkid2000 on January 14, 2014, 09:29:10 pm
Exercise was thought to be useful for depression - latest data suggests not accept in mild depression.

Steve Peters book is ok - I read it to see whether I'd recommend it to patients. It's a bit Daily Mail / self help esque.

An alternative - which I have looked at is mood gym - online Cbt - I know a lot of GPs who also recommend it.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on August 11, 2014, 01:43:03 pm
Nice article here about negative thinking...

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/aug/11/how-to-silence-negative-thinking
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on August 11, 2014, 06:40:50 pm
This is a great thread. Just a shame there isn't more activity.

One author I've found proudly insightful and influential - on my thinking as a whole, not just with regard to mental health - is Dorothy Rowe. The following three articles give an introduction to, and a flavour of, her perspective on the ways in which we cope with distress:

http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/articles/miscellaneous/item/148-university-of-huddersfield-psychological-therapies-oct-2007 (http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/articles/miscellaneous/item/148-university-of-huddersfield-psychological-therapies-oct-2007)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/12/alcohol-addiction-dorothy-rowe (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/12/alcohol-addiction-dorothy-rowe)

http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/articles/item/164-dealing-with-physical-and-mental-illness (http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/articles/item/164-dealing-with-physical-and-mental-illness)

I found the following piece - by Dr. Gordon Milson - really simple, accessible and very relevant to problems that arise out of our attitudes towards mental health:

http://clinpsychthinking.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/mental-health-stigma-time-to-change-approach/ (http://clinpsychthinking.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/mental-health-stigma-time-to-change-approach/)

To speak openly about some of my own difficulties, "low mood" isn't generally a problem, but profound levels of, at times, debilitating anxiety has been. There was one winter - about 2001/2 - when I felt quite terrified for a period of six months or more, and could barely function at all. Lots of time spent in bed etc. A turning point was a chance encounter with a chap from France, who was looking for a room at the time. Meeting someone I knew instinctively that I could trust, and who was also keen to get out running/climbing was a bit of a lifesaver. There have also been other people on the climbing scene, whose warmth and generosity has given me a pad or two to land on from time to time. Hopefully you'll know who you are :-) xx

Dave T.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 12, 2014, 09:42:27 pm
Given that the world got a little darker today.

This piece from the Guardian, resonated.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/12/russell-brand-robin-williams-divine-madness-broken-world

Quote

"Is it melancholy to think that a world that Robin Williams can’t live in must be broken? To tie this sad event to the overarching misery of our times? No academic would co-sign a theory in which the tumult of our fractured and unhappy planet is causing the inherently hilarious to end their lives, though I did read that suicide among the middle-aged increased inexplicably in 1999 and has been rising ever since. Is it a condition of our era?"

Yes.

Yes it is.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on August 13, 2014, 01:40:59 pm
It's good to see Depression being discussed.  I read a great editorial this morning that included the sentence (or I paraphrase) "you don't get depression about something in the same you don't get diabetes about something".
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: rich d on August 13, 2014, 01:46:01 pm
Can there be trigger events that make the depression worse or start a downward progression? Brother in law is having a really hard time at the moment and just wondered on people with more experience of this opinions.
Cheers Rich
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on August 13, 2014, 01:55:22 pm
Oh absolutely yes.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: r-man on August 13, 2014, 02:44:58 pm
It's good to see Depression being discussed.  I read a great editorial this morning that included the sentence (or I paraphrase) "you don't get depression about something in the same you don't get diabetes about something".

I saw something similar on the net. Worth quoting the exact phrase as it's well worded:

"Please remember that ‘What are you depressed about?’ makes no more sense than ‘What are you diabetic about?’"
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 13, 2014, 03:06:51 pm

Can there be trigger events that make the depression worse or start a downward progression? Brother in law is having a really hard time at the moment and just wondered on people with more experience of this opinions.
Cheers Rich

Well, yes... But.

To put it in basic terms, as I understand it.

It's not primarily a psychological condition; it's a chemical imbalance. That results in a brain that doesn't function quite as it should.

The condition is something which has evolved to assist in our risk perception, within the predator/prey, fight/flight context (a little paranoia keeps you alive in the wild).

One of the (many) things which can trigger depression would be prolonged exposure to stress.
Some people are just more prone than others.

As for complications like addiction/psychiatric disorders etc, it seems to me (from the explanations of "professionals"); that it a "Chicken and Egg" question, only much harder to answer...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: rich d on August 13, 2014, 03:15:22 pm
thanks for the answers.
Rich
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: JamieG on August 13, 2014, 04:01:02 pm
My own personal experience of physical health problems becoming mental health issues.

I have always been a worrier and a bit OCD. I often check the door is locked three or four times, especially when stressed. These, however, were only minor annoyances in the grand scheme of things, until I got very bad food poisoning. It left me with a very sensitive stomach that meant I felt sick a lot of the time, and struggled to eat much. After several months of losing weight, not feeling like getting out to the pub or crag as much as usual, I think the actual stomach problem had gone but it had been replaced with paranoia and angst about feeling sick. This then morphed into depression resulting in me having to take time off work, going onto antidepressants (which was hard to accept) and having CBT.

After a couple months I felt massively better, was eating normally and the depression had mostly gone. Overall the last few years, however, I've tried to come off my antidepressants several times and it always results into a slow descent back into depression (which I'm now very scared of!!!). So for the meantime I am just taking my drugs and trying to be ok about it. I'm not sure if I'll ever fully be able to come off them now, which is hard. Especially, since I feel there is stigma about depression. In fact I've thought about posting on this thread before but always wimped out. I don't always feel comfortable about discussing my illness (I'm sure I'd be the same if I had other illnesses like diabetes, maybe not), but hopefully this will help some other people.

Now having experienced the illness I feel a lot more sympathetic for other people with depression (and other mental health issues). Whilst never thinking that people should 'just cheer up', I don't think I fully understood how hard and debilitating it is, until I experienced it. Apparently this is very good for understanding depression http://www.depressionquest.com/ (http://www.depressionquest.com/) , although I haven't personally played it.

I think this is a great thread. Thanks for starting it. It has helped me before. I probably should have plucked up the courage earlier to post. But there we go.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on August 13, 2014, 08:03:44 pm
Matt's right, to some extent, as external factors are often the root cause (but not always) of mild and moderate Depression/Anxiety.  The reactions to stress and fight/flight responses slowly deplete levels of serotonin and other things until the body just can't produce enough and buckles.  SSRIs medication then stop the brain reabsorbing serotonin until it re-establishes the levels it's supposed to be at.  Steadying the ship so to speak.

Severe debilitating Depression is a different case entirely and I couldn't comment.

I meant to post on here some time ago as I tapered off Citalopram over the last six months of 2013 and am now OK, I had a few up/manic episodes after coming off completely in January but all's well now.  Sleep like a log and am more aware of managing anxiety and other stuff that I know isn't good for me.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Sloper on August 13, 2014, 09:29:38 pm
Until recently I've in effect being doing >2 stressful full time jobs (down to just one now I've managed to recruit a manager to take some of the weight off my shoulders) and in my experience it's interesting to see how the abnormal can be normalised and thus not seen as a 'problem' with all sorts of side effects.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: psychomansam on August 19, 2014, 02:06:31 pm

Can there be trigger events that make the depression worse or start a downward progression? Brother in law is having a really hard time at the moment and just wondered on people with more experience of this opinions.
Cheers Rich

Well, yes... But.

To put it in basic terms, as I understand it.

It's not primarily a psychological condition; it's a chemical imbalance. That results in a brain that doesn't function quite as it should.


That really makes me want to get philosophical. But, to spare you too much of that, just consider that the main reason us philosophers have so much to say about the mind is that science really hasn't fully 'got' it yet. For instance, you draw on a dichotomy between mind (psychological condition) and brain (chemical imbalance). But of course that dichotomy, and (almost) every other attempts at explaining the mind/brain, end up being nonsensical.

Perhaps more directly helpful to the OP is this: if you do want to think of it as a mind/brain dichotomy, then it's best to visage that causation works both ways - your psychological state can effect your chemical balance as well as vice versa.

But I do also think that it's worth bearing in mind that this dichotomy is essentially bullshit. At best, it's an explanatory tool for us to be able to talk about the mind/brain. At worst, it's a highly misleading one.

Just for the sake of contrast, consider another way of explaining the mind/brain - one that has as many problems but as much validity as the above dichotomy: the mind and the brain are one and the same. They just represent two ways of talking about the same thing. They could perhaps be seen as different levels of explanation. Your psychological state is one and the same as the chemical balance of your brain.

This can also be a helpful tool for explaining the mind/brain. But both of these attempts at explanation of the mind/brain (by dichotomy and as identical) are essentially just useful bullshit.

That's enough philosophy - here's an anecdote from personal experience. I've had the rare experience of taking and then coming off an SSRI while mentally healthy. Despite good mental health, the withdrawal was horrendous for about a week (and was fine shortly after). During withdrawal, I had no energy. A short walk would result in me shaking and sweating. I lay awake at night with palpitations and night-sweats. More interestingly, I couldn't be happy. I couldn't enjoy anything. I felt blank. Joyless. Emotionally void. But I wouldn't say I was depressed while in that phase of withdrawal because I could reflect on my condition and could explain it as being due to a chemical imbalance - a lack of serotonin. More importantly I didn't have cycles of negative thoughts. Conversations with doctors at the time clearly betrayed their concern that I might be a suicide risk. This seemed very strange to me, and in a way it still does.

Depression, as a part of our mind/brain experience, is something we just don't properly understand. I suspect it frequently consists of a chemical imbalance resulting in a greater or lesser form of the above symptoms and also of the presence of cyclical and negative thought patterns. I suspect one can lead to the other. We know that we can use talking therapy/CBT to help 'think' our way out of depression, and chemical therapy to help dose our way out of depression. Perhaps some people are more genetically prone to chemical imbalances and thus for them drugs are more appropriate, while as other people are depressed more due to the effects of negative thought cycles and thus for them talking therapies/CBT are more appropriate.
 
Or perhaps some people are more genetically prone to negative thought cycles and others are just unfortunate enough to think themself into a chemical imbalance.

There's no answers here. It's all bullshit. But some bullshit is helpful and at the very least I know that, for me, realising just how little we really understand about the mind/brain and thus about the finer details of how depression works is helpful in accepting it as a very real, serious and common problem.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: iain on August 19, 2014, 03:04:51 pm
This then morphed into depression resulting in me having to take time off work, going onto antidepressants (which was hard to accept)
I had the same reaction, there's a part of me that felt like taking drugs is admitting a weakness or a failing. Took a long while to realise that was bollocks. Most of us are willing to take drugs for infections, long term physical illness etc, there's no difference in doing it for mental health reasons.
(The first time I admitted I had a real problem and saw my GP I opted for talking therapies and declined drugs, then promptly bought St John Wort at the chemist so I wouldn't have to say I was on anti-depressants. No paradox there eh  :-[ )

Overall the last few years, however, I've tried to come off my antidepressants several times and it always results into a slow descent back into depression (which I'm now very scared of!!!). So for the meantime I am just taking my drugs and trying to be ok about it. I'm not sure if I'll ever fully be able to come off them now, which is hard. Especially, since I feel there is stigma about depression.
My GP wouldn't let me do this over the winter (too many relapses generally) but I've been very gradually dropping the dose since the spring, even chopping up pills to reduce it in small enough increments. I tried coming of them before in prescribed doses but it didn't work.
There's also nothing wrong with staying on them long term, or even only using them when things are more difficult, like taking anti-histamines during pollen season. I can see myself going back on them over the winter.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Bubba on August 19, 2014, 03:35:21 pm
Overall the last few years, however, I've tried to come off my antidepressants several times and it always results into a slow descent back into depression (which I'm now very scared of!!!). So for the meantime I am just taking my drugs and trying to be ok about it. I'm not sure if I'll ever fully be able to come off them now, which is hard. Especially, since I feel there is stigma about depression.
My GP wouldn't let me do this over the winter (too many relapses generally) but I've been very gradually dropping the dose since the spring, even chopping up pills to reduce it in small enough increments. I tried coming of them before in prescribed doses but it didn't work.
There's also nothing wrong with staying on them long term, or even only using them when things are more difficult, like taking anti-histamines during pollen season. I can see myself going back on them over the winter.

 :agree:

After many years of serious deprssion I had several unsuccessful attempts at coming off antidepressants before managing to live life without them. The first time I slipped back to serious depression and on subsequent attempts I saw the signs checked the decline earlier.  Don't feel disheartened if it doesn't work the first few times; it probably just means that you're not ready yet. Also it can give you valuable insight into recognising the resurgence of your depression and keeping it in check in the future.

When I finally did it I had been well for at least six months (probably longer but can't remember exactly) and chose to reduce the dosage to coincide with the onset of late spring/summer.  I halved the daily dose for several months, then took the half dose every other day for a further few months. There's no rush...and you may have to experiment a few times to find out what works for you.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: JamieG on August 20, 2014, 11:50:38 am
Cheers for the advice. I'll agree that if it was drugs for something that seemed more physical, I'd maybe find it easier. Also, if it was someone else struggling with metal health issues, I be much more understanding. Especially after experiencing it myself.

But, it so much easier to give yourself a hard time. And see this all as a character flaw, no matter how much you know it is a chemical imbalance in the brain.

I have to admit. I have a very supportive family and wife, which makes a massive difference. Must be much harder if you are struggling on your own!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Jaspersharpe on August 20, 2014, 03:25:32 pm



I meant to post on here some time ago as I tapered off Citalopram over the last six months of 2013 and am now OK, I had a few up/manic episodes after coming off completely in January but all's well now.  Sleep like a log and am more aware of managing anxiety and other stuff that I know isn't good for me.

After 10 years of dealing with Mrs S's massive mood swings and treading on eggshells constantly in an attempt to not trigger one, she started taking the same drug a few weeks ago.

I can't explain what a difference it has made except to say that I now have the person I love with me all the time rather than half the time.

It's actually much more than that as the depression permeated every aspect of our lives and it's only now that I can truly admit and appreciate that (as I'd have crumbled if I'd thought too much about it previously).

She's had no side effects apart from drowsiness in the morning (which supposed to recede) and we've just had the best holiday ever where numerous minor stress incidents would previously have turned into disasters but instead were dealt with normally.

It's taken her ages to get to the stage where she felt ok with the idea of taking drugs for it but is now 100% certain it was the right thing to do. As am I.
   
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 20, 2014, 04:02:08 pm




I meant to post on here some time ago as I tapered off Citalopram over the last six months of 2013 and am now OK, I had a few up/manic episodes after coming off completely in January but all's well now.  Sleep like a log and am more aware of managing anxiety and other stuff that I know isn't good for me.

After 10 years of dealing with Mrs S's massive mood swings and treading on eggshells constantly in an attempt to not trigger one, she started taking the same drug a few weeks ago.

I can't explain what a difference it has made except to say that I now have the person I love with me all the time rather than half the time.

It's actually much more than that as the depression permeated every aspect of our lives and it's only now that I can truly admit and appreciate that (as I'd have crumbled if I'd thought too much about it previously).

She's had no side effects apart from drowsiness in the morning (which supposed to recede) and we've just had the best holiday ever where numerous minor stress incidents would previously have turned into disasters but instead were dealt with normally.

It's taken her ages to get to the stage where she felt ok with the idea of taking drugs for it but is now 100% certain it was the right thing to do. As am I.
   
I do hope certain people do not read the following comment, but....

After being on the pill, for most of her adult life, a very close friend has just discovered that it has been having a devastating effect on her depression. After a month off it, she is a totally different person.

There were so many other things to point to as a root cause (primarily PTSD), that it never crossed anyone's mind that it may be hormonal (partially) and for any man to address any Female mental health issue from a hormonal perspective is a bit of a minefield...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: psychomansam on August 20, 2014, 04:07:47 pm




I meant to post on here some time ago as I tapered off Citalopram over the last six months of 2013 and am now OK, I had a few up/manic episodes after coming off completely in January but all's well now.  Sleep like a log and am more aware of managing anxiety and other stuff that I know isn't good for me.

After 10 years of dealing with Mrs S's massive mood swings and treading on eggshells constantly in an attempt to not trigger one, she started taking the same drug a few weeks ago.

I can't explain what a difference it has made except to say that I now have the person I love with me all the time rather than half the time.

It's actually much more than that as the depression permeated every aspect of our lives and it's only now that I can truly admit and appreciate that (as I'd have crumbled if I'd thought too much about it previously).

She's had no side effects apart from drowsiness in the morning (which supposed to recede) and we've just had the best holiday ever where numerous minor stress incidents would previously have turned into disasters but instead were dealt with normally.

It's taken her ages to get to the stage where she felt ok with the idea of taking drugs for it but is now 100% certain it was the right thing to do. As am I.
   
I do hope certain people do not read the following comment, but....

After being on the pill, for most of her adult life, a very close friend has just discovered that it has been having a devastating effect on her depression. After a month off it, she is a totally different person.

There were so many other things to point to as a root cause (primarily PTSD), that it never crossed anyone's mind that it may be hormonal (partially) and for any man to address any Female mental health issue from a hormonal perspective is a bit of a minefield...

Mirena coil. Low-dose localised hormones, with very little effect on the body/brain more widely.  :goodidea:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 20, 2014, 04:55:20 pm





I meant to post on here some time ago as I tapered off Citalopram over the last six months of 2013 and am now OK, I had a few up/manic episodes after coming off completely in January but all's well now.  Sleep like a log and am more aware of managing anxiety and other stuff that I know isn't good for me.

After 10 years of dealing with Mrs S's massive mood swings and treading on eggshells constantly in an attempt to not trigger one, she started taking the same drug a few weeks ago.

I can't explain what a difference it has made except to say that I now have the person I love with me all the time rather than half the time.

It's actually much more than that as the depression permeated every aspect of our lives and it's only now that I can truly admit and appreciate that (as I'd have crumbled if I'd thought too much about it previously).

She's had no side effects apart from drowsiness in the morning (which supposed to recede) and we've just had the best holiday ever where numerous minor stress incidents would previously have turned into disasters but instead were dealt with normally.

It's taken her ages to get to the stage where she felt ok with the idea of taking drugs for it but is now 100% certain it was the right thing to do. As am I.
   
I do hope certain people do not read the following comment, but....

After being on the pill, for most of her adult life, a very close friend has just discovered that it has been having a devastating effect on her depression. After a month off it, she is a totally different person.

There were so many other things to point to as a root cause (primarily PTSD), that it never crossed anyone's mind that it may be hormonal (partially) and for any man to address any Female mental health issue from a hormonal perspective is a bit of a minefield...

Mirena coil. Low-dose localised hormones, with very little effect on the body/brain more widely.  :goodidea:

Yes. That looks like the most likely answer. There is a Polycystic ovaries issue, so awaiting GP's final opinion...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 20, 2014, 08:58:36 pm
This is novel, at least to me.

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/julyaug/9-depressions-dance-with-inflammation

Another benefit to low dose Aspirin?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: duncan on August 21, 2014, 09:33:50 am
This is novel, at least to me.

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/julyaug/9-depressions-dance-with-inflammation (http://discovermagazine.com/2014/julyaug/9-depressions-dance-with-inflammation)

Thanks for this, a good read. Inflammatory cytokines are a family of chemicals, some of whom appear to be mediators in persistent pain, not just in pain related to inflammation. Persistent pain and low mood (and poor sleep) so commonly coexist that they might as well be considered a single condition and treated as such.

For now, Pariante talks with his recovering patients about the importance of exercise and eating a balanced diet, which also can help maintain normal levels of inflammation. 

Look after yourself and climb Easy Trad (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24573.msg455765.html#msg455765).





Another benefit to low dose Aspirin?
It's a bit more nuanced than that. NSAIDs might be helpful or unhelpful according to circumstance and blood chemistry. NSAIDs were originally developed for inflammatory arthritis and, speculating, they might theoretically exacerbate depression where there is pain but minimal inflammation (most climbing injuries for example).

One recent analysis of more than 1,500 people found that those who took an anti-inflammatory drug along with an antidepressant were less likely to overcome their depression than those who only took an antidepressant.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: psychomansam on August 22, 2014, 04:36:42 pm
Can there be trigger events that make the depression worse or start a downward progression? Brother in law is having a really hard time at the moment and just wondered on people with more experience of this opinions.
Cheers Rich

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/what-causes-depression.htm (http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/what-causes-depression.htm)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on August 22, 2014, 05:11:55 pm
Its interesting (and please don't take this as a criticism) that we always try and think of what might be causing depression. It strikes me that there are a multitude of chemical, physical and especially contextual issues that can lead to it happening - and on top of that there are many many shades of grey as to how it manifests itself.

So, surely far easier progress can be made in getting people to understand what it means - so we can appreciate, adapt, accommodate and support those who may get depression?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on January 17, 2015, 10:49:07 pm
 Good phone-in on radio 5 live at the moment folks. The S word.

I'll look for the podcast after, and post that up if available.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on May 11, 2015, 08:12:37 pm
worth looking at - some helpful stuff

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/Pages/low-mood-stress-anxiety.aspx

(it's mental health awareness week)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on July 18, 2015, 02:16:42 am
Is it just me?

Or does insomnia suck big hairy ones?

Why is it that when it's most needed, when the opportunity finally comes to bag a decent quota; that sleep becomes the most elusive?

Why, at 2am (and despite a hefty slug of the Talisker) does the voice insist on running over every bloody issue, problem, niggle or worry?

On a Friday night?

With no possible hope for even a hint of resolution before Monday?

Why does it chime back in, despite reading until the eyelids droop; right at that moment when the book drops?

Despite all those relaxation techniques you've practiced?

And why does some moment, long forgotten in the light of day; become an indelible stain of regret in the early hours?

Why?

Because bollocks, that's why.

Half the time I can't remember why I came up stairs or why I picked up the phone, in the daylight.

At frickin 2 am, I remember every little screw up,  everything, all things and nothing.


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Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on July 18, 2015, 08:09:42 am
Hope you got some shut eye Matt....
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: andyd on July 18, 2015, 08:57:35 am
That's shitty Matt. I've had a moderate dose of the same recently. Despite not thinking about it much when I'm trying to go to sleep, I'm pretty convinced that work is the route cause. If I sort out things that need attention, sleep tends to resume business. That's probably not very useful for a self employed gent such as yourself... Could you supplement with an afternoon bit of sleepy? Or are you actually tired? Maybe a bit more playing out is called for!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on July 18, 2015, 09:41:09 am
I get this usually at 3 am in the morning, nearly always to do with issues at work. The job Team Leader for a Community Mental Health Team. :'(
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on July 18, 2015, 05:23:31 pm
I suffer with insomnia, I can count the number of times I've slept through the night in the last six years on my hands. Some days I feel ok on it, sometimes I feel utterly fucked all day. Rarely get more than 6 hours a night, and a 4 hour stretch is good going for me.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on July 18, 2015, 05:36:08 pm
Because bollocks, that's why.
Wise words.

Maybe less wise, but I've found Night Nurse can be a (very) short term aid.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on July 18, 2015, 06:12:41 pm
Drifted off at 3:30 ish. Polly's phone chimed at 5am with s text to say a staff member was too sick to work. I was already covering for another sick staffer at the other wall today, so that left us with four kids, no child care and two jobs to cover.
And that wasn't even what kept me awake, it all happened after...

In the last couple of years this affects me once every couple of months. It seems un-connected with my PTSD. That recurrent semi-conscious dream of being stuck on the Ice-cap of South Georgia, snow-blind and frost bitten has faded again (bloody well aught to have after 23 years) and this is something else.
I can always restructure/direct my thoughts, right up to the point where I cede control to sleep, when the eyes droop and the body goes limp; at which point the anxiety rushes back in. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on July 18, 2015, 06:30:41 pm
Sounds shitty Matt. Lack of sleep does indeed suck big hairy ones. I'm suffering too but due to different reasons - noise from the shop that I live above wakes me up at 5.30 most mornings. Drives me crazy some weeks, I've had triple glazing fitted, looking into sound-reducing underlay next.

I find working physically hard at something so that I'm properly knackered helps. But it's easy to get into a cycle where you're too fucked from lack of sleep to want to do something physically hard, then end the day not physically knackered enough to sleep through the night etc. etc. Mental exhaustion, annoyingly, seems to lead to lack of sleep not better sleep!

I've experienced the 3am anxiety thing (hasn't everyone!) when I was overdoing it last year with too many things at once - guidebook, work and other stuff. I'd like to say I found the solution but the solution for me was slowly reaching a point whereby I finishing all the things I was working on.. not healthy really..

Taurine is well known as an anxiolytic and sleep aid. I only take it during periods where I'm taking beta-alanine (i.e. to aid PE training) to counteract the taurine-depleting effect of the beta-alanine. Not something you want to be overdoing - Taurine or beta-al. Lavender oil is another anxiolytic that might help you get a good night's sleep. Not sure alcohol's the answer, I heard somewhere it might be addictive..
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on July 18, 2015, 06:58:41 pm
My bottle of 12 year old, is 3 years old and still half full...
Seem to have lost the taste for an occasional dram and sipped it last night as much for the warmth it spreads inside, as for it's sedative qualities.
I suspect writing the post subtly changed my mental dynamic. Drew a line under it, as it were; that allowed me to wander off into Pratchets' " Long Mars" phase space of adjacent possibles...

Aka a pleasant dream.


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Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on July 18, 2015, 10:56:11 pm
I started a sleep thread a while back. Is this better off there?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on October 08, 2015, 09:33:46 am
Tomtom linked to this page on another thread, thought this was an interesting read.

http://www.climbingbusinessjournal.com/solving-problems-with-problems/

Confirms what we all find?

(I'm sure THE SCIENCE bit is about to be ripped to bits).
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 08, 2015, 12:41:12 pm
Tomtom linked to this page on another thread, thought this was an interesting read.

http://www.climbingbusinessjournal.com/solving-problems-with-problems/

Confirms what we all find?

(I'm sure THE SCIENCE bit is about to be ripped to bits).

An interesting read. Thanks for that!

One factor emphasised in the article was "self-efficacy".

One of my common criticisms about typical psychotherapeutic interventions, is that they often (commonly, nearly always..!) mask the ulterior benefit of enhancing the position and sense of efficacy of the therapist. (Especially so, in my experience, though not exclusively, when dealing with practitioners within the NHS!)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Johnny Brown on October 08, 2015, 12:48:53 pm
I guess it is inevitable to an extent. Did you ever attempt to broach it with them?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 08, 2015, 01:09:12 pm
I guess it is inevitable to an extent. Did you ever attempt to broach it with them?

As in "make a complaint"? It can be very difficult to deal with institutions that are very well set up to protect their own position and prestige.

But yes, I have a good dialogue running with management within the N.H.S. to explore ways of improving engagement and delivery between (for want of a better way of putting it) service users and providers.

Other people's experiences please!!

Climbing has certainly helped me experience being able to sort things out in my own way, and has helped me act on the courage of my own convictions as to whether any programme of intervention is beneficial.

Interestingly, the article above particularly mentions the experiencing of intense emotions within the climbing context. I've found that actively choosing to take the rollercoaster ride has been far more beneficial than any form of medication - which is why I've deliberately chosen to avoid it.

Of course, I've had to risk being "rejected" on a "well, if you don't want our help basis". I have good dialogue with my gp, which helps.

Oh, and Sarah Holmes through the Citizens Advice Mental Health Advocacy Service, has been amazing. Based in Sheffield.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: benno on October 08, 2015, 01:33:55 pm
I find working physically hard at something so that I'm properly knackered helps. But it's easy to get into a cycle where you're too fucked from lack of sleep to want to do something physically hard, then end the day not physically knackered enough to sleep through the night etc. etc. Mental exhaustion, annoyingly, seems to lead to lack of sleep not better sleep!

Fucking, this! I'm going to wad just for writing that down so concisely.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 30, 2015, 02:50:58 pm
if anyone's interested in getting involved...

http://www.recoveryenterprises.co.uk/new-opportunity-for-volunteers-to-join-the-sheffield-flourish-steering-group/

they could simply direct people to UKB

Quote
a virtual meeting place that will enable people living with mental health conditions to take control over their life – a support and signposting online community where people living can find ways to recover their lives and flourish

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on November 03, 2015, 09:30:52 am
I'm aware of the benefit of forums and hope it does well, but there's something ironic about an enterprise to tackle mental health by engaging through the medium of the internet.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: sherlock on November 03, 2015, 10:18:09 am
I'm aware of the benefit of forums and hope it does well, but there's something ironic about an enterprise to tackle mental health by engaging through the medium of the internet.
Take your point but I think this is the modern world.... for better or worse :shrug:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Simon Brown on November 04, 2015, 01:32:19 pm
That black dog, I've lived with the bloody thing, on and off, for near forty years. Like many others, I find the discipline and community a huge help, but that dog gets in the way. So after too long a break from climbing with that mutt slobbering around in my brain, I'm back playing again.

And I'm as usual delighted by the climbing community. The lack of stigma to my stating 'my brain just flipped out for a few years again' is, well, I do not have the words.

Especial thanks to Dick, Sam and Lucinda, Lucy and Tim, Sooty and the inestimable na'then Nige'.

Bisous a tout

modified because I can't do basic maths; 52-13 is nearer forty than thirty.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on November 04, 2015, 01:55:49 pm
Good man.

Never too late to make a comeback!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Simon Brown on November 05, 2015, 08:40:24 am
Good man.

Never too late to make a comeback!

Thanks Chris.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 13, 2015, 11:59:27 am
"Good mental health isn't something you have, but something you do" :

I thought people might find this pdf booklet thought provoking, perhaps helpful. It was originally from the Mind website, and IIRC co-written with the psychologist Dorothy Rowe.

For me, it emphasises agency, and highlights "attitude", which Victor Frankl (Man's Search for Meaning") acknowledged as one thing - possibly the only thing - we truly have control over.

I've certainly found it a great reference point.

http://www.welllondon.org.uk/files/929/mental-wellbeing/20.How%20to%20improve%20your%20mental%20wellbeing.pdf

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: danm on November 13, 2015, 12:32:48 pm
Just read this blog post, well good: http://www.climbout.co.uk/a-greater-range/ (http://www.climbout.co.uk/a-greater-range/)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Tommy on November 13, 2015, 01:45:33 pm
Yeah it's pretty darn good!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slackline on December 17, 2015, 04:14:06 pm
Shopping is hell and kindness is therapeutic – what I learned from being depressed at Christmas (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/14/shopping-hell-kindness-therapeutic-depression-christmas)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on December 21, 2015, 09:38:51 pm
Copy and pasted from Bipolar UK's Christmas Survival Guide

some good tips here for everyone

Quote
The Christmas Survival Guide

How do you feel about Christmas? We all have feelings about Christmas, good, bad or mixed.

“I love it.” “I dread it.” “I worry about it.” “It’s too commercial.” “I worry about money.” “My family are such a pain.” “It’s so stressful.” “I’m really excited”.

We may long for Christmas or dread it. We may be sad that we can’t be part of a family, or we may be relieved that we aren’t. We may miss someone who is no longer with us or wish someone was far away. We may wonder if the money is going to stretch far enough or wish we had more people to spend it on.

For some people it is a welcome break, for others just another day. For some it is an important religious festival. However you feel, these notes aim to help you cope with it, get through it or enjoy it and to keep some control over what happens.

The number one rule for surviving the season is remembering that you can always say "No" and you can always do things more simply, even if that isn't the way it's been done in the past.

"No, I can't make food for the party." "No, I can't make the office do; I'm just too tired and I need the sleep." It is ok to say no when you really can't do one more thing, and you don't even have to explain why if you don't want to.

SPENDING CHRISTMAS ON YOUR OWN

Whether you are spending Christmas on your own through choice or necessity you can relax, spoil yourself a little and do what you want.

Check out what events are going on and which agencies are open. Think about whether you might like to volunteer at an event for older or homeless people.

Create some new traditions of your own. Have your favourite food for Christmas dinner, whether it’s beans on toast, chips and gravy or chocolate cake. Instead of staying up to the small hours of the morning cooking and baking and cleaning, stay up late watching a favourite film and sleep as late as you want to the next day.

PLANNING AHEAD

* Make a list of things to do and tick them off as you do them.

* Buy your presents and cards a few at a time to spread the cost.

* Wrap them a few at a time to avoid feeling stressed.

* Record, buy or rent some films and keep them for when there’s nothing you want to watch.

* Get some books and magazines and hide them away.

* Revised bus timetables are usually available well in advance.

* If you need a taxi on Christmas day book it a week before.

* Shop online to save the stress of fighting through the shops.

* Gift cards can be an easy but much appreciated present.

MONEY

* If you receive benefits make a note of any changes in payment dates and how long your money has to last.

* Stock up on foods that will keep (check use by dates) a little at a time to spread the cost.

* Put aside any money you will need for taxis.

* Check when banks/post office will be open and remember that cash machines can run out at holiday time.

* If you think you may spend all your money too quickly consider asking someone you trust to keep some for you.

* Homemade gifts, like sweets and biscuits or “vouchers” promising to do something for someone are very personal and much appreciated. You don’t have to spend a fortune for a present to be special.

PRACTICAL ISSUES


* Make sure you have enough medication to last you over the holidays.

* Find out when the GP’s surgery and the CMHT are closed.

* Make a note of the out of hours & crisis team numbers and keep them to hand.

* Check when the shops you use are going to be closed.

* Find out about changes in any bus timetables that are likely to affect you.

LOOKING AFTER YOURSELF


Get plenty of sleep. Whether you are spending the holidays rushing around doing all of your usual things or planning ahead for what to do with your alone time, sleep is essential.

* Don’t worry about dieting – eat and drink what you like for a few days.

* Buy your favourite foods.

* Get some things that are easy to prepare.

* Buy enough for a few days so you don’t have to go out.

* Treat yourself to some nice candles or bath or aromatherapy oils.

* Buy yourself some presents.

* Arrange to meet or chat with people whose company you find supportive.

SEEING AND DEALING WITH OTHER PEOPLE


If the thought of a party, family gathering or other "mandatory" social event leaves you knotted up with anxiety, plan ahead for some "escape time" for yourself. No matter where you are, if you are suddenly feeling overwhelmed, find the nearest bathroom and take some time out until you have mentally gathered yourself together.

* Set your boundaries – time, place, etc. and stick to them.

* Make definite transport arrangements.

* Make it clear to people how long you will be with them but try to consider their arrangements too.

* If people are coming to you make it clear when you would like them to arrive and how long you would like them to stay.

* Say thank you for everything even if you don’t like a present.

* If they criticise your presents just smile and say “I’m sorry you don’t like it.”

* Pack a couple of extra small presents e.g. chocolates, soap, candles, in case you get some you didn’t expect.

* Try to avoid getting into arguments with people if you know you will never agree – change the subject.

* Avoid talking over bad bits of the past – again, change the subject!

Helpful Numbers

In the run-up to Christmas, you can call Bipolar UK’s Information & Support line on 0333 323 3880. Details of opening times over Christmas will be available on the website.

The eCommunity will be available 24/7 as usual over the festive period.

Samaritans are available 24 hours a day over Christmas and the New Year. You can ring them free on 116 123 or email jo@samaritans.org.

SANEline, the specialist mental health helpline, offers confidential emotional support. Available on 0300 304 7000 between 6pm and 11pm each evening. Open as usual over Christmas.

CALM offer a free, anonymous and confidential helpline for men who are feeling down or who need to talk or find information and support. Available from 5pm–midnight, 365 days a year. (They suggest that if you want to talk outside these hours, that you call Samaritans.) Nationwide: 0800 58 58 58, London: 0808 802 58 58, WEBCHAT: www.thecalmzone.net/get-help

The Silver Line is a free, confidential helpline providing information, friendship and advice to older people, open 24 hours a day, every day of the year. 0800 4 70 80 90

Drinkline is the national alcohol helpline. If you're worried about your own or someone else's drinking, you can call free, in complete confidence on 0300 123 1110 (weekdays 9am – 8pm, weekends 11am – 4pm). Open as usual over Christmas.

CALL (Community Action and Listening Line) for Wales only. This mental health information and support helpline is available 24/7 on 0800 132 737 (www.callhelpline.org.uk).
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on February 10, 2016, 10:17:01 am
spread the word

http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/

it would be good if folk could get their work/employer/business organisations to take an interest and make a pledge (http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/pledgewall/organisations)

cheers
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: shark on May 04, 2016, 07:42:45 am
Katy Forrester on her struggle and way back:


http://katyforrester.com/i-had-a-black-dog/
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 04, 2016, 08:15:43 am
Katy Forrester on her struggle and way back:


http://katyforrester.com/i-had-a-black-dog/

Good isn't it?

(Possibly not the right way to put it).

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on May 04, 2016, 02:56:06 pm
Katy Forrester on her struggle and way back:


http://katyforrester.com/i-had-a-black-dog/

Good isn't it?

(Possibly not the right way to put it).

I think it's fantastic. And courageous.

Using the description "Black Dog", avoids all the unnecessary jargon and absurd medical labels, allowing us instead, to communicate something more of the human experience.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 05, 2016, 08:30:55 am
As an aside, does anyone know the origin of the "Black dog" analogy? It was already in common usage, when I was first floored in '95, amongst the Psychologists.
And people have been singing about it for quite sometime.

"Black Dog On My Shoulder"

There's a black dog on my shoulder again
Licking my neck and saying she's my friend
Solitude the one thing that I really miss
Guess my life is a compromise

There's a black dog on my shoulder again
I'm playing with it but it's gone to my head
Like Carlito's way there are no exit signs

Freeze me there until I am numb
My mouth is so dry
My eyes are shut tight
There's a black dog a coming tonight
Black dog's a coming tonight

My dilemma but not my choice
Winston Churchill can you hear my voice
Melodrama there in my kitchen sink
Double vision the way it is

Am I coming home to you again
Or am I stupid just by design
Does it matter if you really ever know

This black dog is out of control
My mouth is so dry
My eyes are shut tight
There's a black dog a coming tonight
Black dog's a coming tonight

Am I coming home to you again
Or am I stupid just by design
Does it matter if you really ever know

This black dog is out of control
My mouth is so dry
My eyes are shut tight
There's a black dog a coming tonight
Black dog's a coming tonight


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slackline on May 05, 2016, 08:44:38 am
As an aside, does anyone know the origin of the "Black dog" analogy?

...with its claim that "Black Dog" was the name [Winston] Churchill gave to "the prolonged fits of depression from which he suffered"1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill)


1 Lord Moran, Winston Churchill: the Struggle for Survival 1940–1965 (Constable)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on May 13, 2016, 07:17:51 pm

Interesting interview. especially the last paragraph.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/13/sacked-childrens-mental-health-tzar-natasha-devon-i-was-proper-angry
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: fried on May 13, 2016, 07:31:10 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PabxhKTkE0U

Another song from a long time ago that was hard listening once.
Title: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 13, 2016, 09:32:51 pm

Interesting interview. especially the last paragraph.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/13/sacked-childrens-mental-health-tzar-natasha-devon-i-was-proper-angry

Good piece.

But...

Robertostallioni is that you in the comments?

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160513/1c87458564e3b571c42d8b024ac65b83.jpg)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on May 21, 2016, 10:50:42 pm
so this week has seen everyone asking me if they should eat magic mushrooms

some science

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(16)30065-7/fulltext
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: cjsheps on July 17, 2016, 07:20:33 pm
I think I should get some help.

This is the second time in two years that I've found myself properly depressed - the kind of state where happiness doesn't last long before laughter starts sounding like monkeys shrieking. This time it boils down to a lot of unpleasant surprises, but they're ultimately small things in the grand scheme.

It worries me that trivial things - often just time away from my usual distractions of climbing and studying - are enough to leave me feeling so low. I've always been quite an unbalanced person (chronically low self-esteem, inferiority complex,...) and I'm scared that if anything goes properly wrong in the future, I could do myself some serious damage.

I'm guessing I should just repeat this to a mental health professional from my university. Aside from that, does anyone have any other tips about getting to the bottom of the issue?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on July 17, 2016, 08:11:23 pm
There is the part of you that wrote the post. Try to let it do the driving for a while.

I guess I up my Fluoxetine dose these days, but head to the Quack and try to get as much sun as possible. I still do the "count your blessings" exercise before sleeping, where you (mentally or physically) write a list of the things you find positive in your life and compare it to your major worries. How's the sleep? I would be irresponsible to recommend a dose of Piriton at 2am when you wake randomly feeling stressed...
I always find the insomnia the biggest bug bear, as it makes everything else such a drag. If I can beat that, I'll usually be ok in a couple of weeks. Temper is hard work and causes friction at home and the only thing that helps me there is, simply, counting to ten and getting control of my breathing. Not alway effective, so really it's just waiting for the increased Fluoxetine to kick in.



All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense. 
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on July 17, 2016, 08:14:15 pm
A really quick reply (your post deserves a longer one - but sorry, screaming baby, cooking dinner etc..)...

I work in a University, and MrsTT is a counsellor -  go and speak to the professionals at your Uni - they are where I work a really good bunch of people, used to talking to many different people with different circumstances. Also, (maybe if the Uni doesnt resonate for you) go and see your GP - they may try and give you antidepressants (which may help - or not) or may instead/as well refer you for some counselling (you get a certain number of sessions free on the NHS etc..).. Also, finding the right counsellor, therapist, whatever they are called is important, so don't worry if the person you first see isnt right, or not a great deal of help - if you can find the right person with who you feel comfortable, or I dunno just seems to click with you then that can make big difference (its a bit like dating in a weird way!).

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: cjsheps on July 17, 2016, 08:33:47 pm
head to the Quack and try to get as much sun as possible.

Good call. I've just moved back from Spain so lack of sunlight may have brought it on in part.

I still do the "count your blessings" exercise before sleeping,  How's the sleep?

That exercise sounds like a good idea. My sleep is pretty good actually - I get 7-8 hours a night with 2-3 hours deep sleep.

Tomtom, your advice sounds good. My best friend in uni sees a mental health professional and says it helps. I might go and speak to him once term time starts. I'd like to see if I can learn to control the problem and, if possible, pull up its roots.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on July 17, 2016, 08:37:05 pm
What Tom says.
However the lack of sunlight will not have caused your poor self esteem/ self worth. Understanding that and coming to terms with it is likely to be way forward.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on July 17, 2016, 09:37:47 pm
I think I should get some help.

This is the second time in two years that I've found myself properly depressed - the kind of state where happiness doesn't last long before laughter starts sounding like monkeys shrieking. This time it boils down to a lot of unpleasant surprises, but they're ultimately small things in the grand scheme.

It worries me that trivial things - often just time away from my usual distractions of climbing and studying - are enough to leave me feeling so low. I've always been quite an unbalanced person (chronically low self-esteem, inferiority complex,...) and I'm scared that if anything goes properly wrong in the future, I could do myself some serious damage.

I'm guessing I should just repeat this to a mental health professional from my university. Aside from that, does anyone have any other tips about getting to the bottom of the issue?

like Tom said, getting the right person to talk to makes a big difference, and it's not clear how to find that person - try different people and approaches until it works - the person can be at least as important as the method

also, having an idea of what you want from help is a good starting point - from what you wrote, it looks like learning some coping skills would be a good starting point - life will continue to throw stuff at you

for something to do right now, maybe start moodscope  (https://www.moodscope.com/) (the free version) as a way of tracking your mood - you may benefit from the facility for your scores to be emailed to other people who can keep an eye on you - or you may just benefit from having a long term mood record that you can present to a professional when it matters. at first it might seem trivial and a bit pointless, but hopefully you will get to a point where it takes very little effort to produce some useful data about yourself
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: k2ted on July 17, 2016, 10:26:42 pm
What others have said already. Ask for CBT at your docs, not sure where youre located but I've been referred three times over 20 years and can't rate it highly enough when combined with antidepressants. For me self esteem is/ was (still is when tired or thinking like I used to) linked to relationships at work, socially etc, so CBT helped me examine how I act around others and slowly change learning new skills. Be patient, it doesn't happen overnight, at least not for me. Be open to it and keep a diary if possible. I have a cbt file on my desktop at work that I continually update. Can only give you my friend experience....don't suffer alone though, there are people who can help and starting at you docs is worthwhile.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on July 17, 2016, 10:38:10 pm
What the others have said.  First stop is to and talk to someone, if you're working or a student you should/may have access to counselling or therapy services.  Like Lager's said it may take a few tries to find the right one so try a few out.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on July 17, 2016, 11:05:07 pm
Counselling services should still be there out of term time btw.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: marcpontin on July 18, 2016, 08:10:22 am

Please consider the following ideas, they are the result of long personal experience and are sent in the spirit of genuine concern:

Recognize that until you 'pull up the roots' you will live on a knife edge, utterly dependant on benign circumstances for your well being and reliant on various distraction techniques to temporarily forget your troubles.

Use this fact to dedicate yourself to self-analyses. Read, study, reflect. Do not rely on haphazard free services provided by the state. Work extra shifts, save every penny to afford the fees (£50/wk) of a highly skilled professional, preferably psycho-dynamically and existentially oriented. Be wary of short term CBT style interventions, they will give you skills to manage your pain but not to go beyond it.
A book to get you started:
Why Do I Do That – Joseph Burgo,

Recognize this will take time and a great deal of hard, tough work, make it your lifes passion to understand what is going on. Your earnestness and dedication to the task will be the deciding factor in your success.

One of the most useful metaphors for this work is to see yourself as made up of a committee of sub-selves: you have an inner child, an inner critic, an inner controller. Also there is a voice in you that wants to be happy. All these voices vie for control of your inner world. Try to frame your experience as 'a part of me is depressed' as opposed to 'I am depressed'. Just this type of re-framing can be immensely liberating. Another way of looking at this from a developmental point of view could be to picture yourself as a set of russian dolls made up of the 2yr old you, the 8 yr old you, the teenage you etc. All these young yous still exist within your psyche, with all their fears, desires and issues. See it as your job to nurture and integrate all these parts of yourself into a mature adult self. Be the chairman of the inner committee!!!

I don't know you but the above is sent with genuine concern and compassion. They represent lessons from my journey over the last two decades. Go for it – there is no more worthwhile way of spending your life.

xx
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: cjsheps on July 18, 2016, 09:14:47 am
Quote
Recognize that until you 'pull up the roots' you will live on a knife edge, utterly dependant on benign circumstances for your well being and reliant on various distraction techniques to temporarily forget your troubles.

You've hit the nail on the head. I reckon that these slips are brought on by something deeper - the dark thoughts are always there, waiting to take the reins.

Quote
Use this fact to dedicate yourself to self-analyses. Read, study, reflect. Do not rely on haphazard free services provided by the state. Work extra shifts, save every penny to afford the fees (£50/wk) of a highly skilled professional, preferably psycho-dynamically and existentially oriented. Be wary of short term CBT style interventions, they will give you skills to manage your pain but not to go beyond it.
A book to get you started:
Why Do I Do That – Joseph Burgo,

As a nearly-broke student, I'm going to try my lower-cost alternatives first and take it from there. Just downloaded the book and I'll start reading it today/tonight.

Quote
Recognize this will take time and a great deal of hard, tough work, make it your lifes passion to understand what is going on. Your earnestness and dedication to the task will be the deciding factor in your success.

I've had a lot of time to reflect about what my issues are, as well as their roots. I've already realised that thinking deeply and being proactive is helping. Interestingly, these ideas became clearer after my first LSD trip this summer.

Thank you so much for the thoughtful responses. It really means a lot right now.


Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Plattsy on July 18, 2016, 09:30:50 am
To add to what the others above have said. If you find yourself having a particularly bad day and you don't feel you have anyone to talk to but know talking to someone would help. You can call the Samaritans 116 123. It's a free number. There'll be someone there to listen without judgement and without lots of advice.

You won't always feel this way.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: JamieG on July 18, 2016, 10:23:21 am
I think you've made the hardest step already, which is admitting that not everything is peachy and you need some support to work through your problems. Re-iterate what has been said above, seek some professional help, counseling, doctors etc.

I would also try to stay clear of drugs especially psychedelic ones. I find if i drink too much (or when I've smoked joints before) and am in a fragile mood, i feel great for a while but then the come down is much worse. But everyone is different.

Good luck and keep climbing (makes the biggest difference to me by miles!)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on August 08, 2016, 06:49:14 pm
Bit of a YYFY on this front.  I got accepted on a five year part-time Diploma (and hopefully MA) in Psychotherapy at the CCPE in London starting next January.  I was thinking about it seriously for the last couple of years as a result of my own therapy and couldn't get my head around how I could do it at the same time as my job when the stars aligned last December with the opportunity to go self employed and create the capacity in my head and schedule to take it on.  I visited numerous schools this year and spoke to a few practicing therapists about their own experiences and it all felt right and plumped for the Transpersonal Diploma at the CCPE as it ticks all the boxes for me.  I'm really excited about it and looking forward to starting a new second career that'll see me through into a ripe old age. Psyched! pun intended...
Title: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on August 08, 2016, 07:46:06 pm
Nice one. MrsTT retrained via a PT MA in Psychotherapy at Manchester (finished last year)... They've canned the course now but she's found it a very positive experience (and got a job at the end of it).
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on August 09, 2016, 01:03:20 pm
That's good to hear TT.  More congrats to Mrs TT
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 25, 2016, 08:23:47 pm
An attic clear out, lead to a picture framing/hanging frenzy today.
And this resurfaced, a self portrait I made only a few months before my breakdown, RTU and eventual P7R discharge. So I guess mid '95, to mid '96 ~ ish.
Needless to say, Polly refused to have it hanging on the house, but damn; I'd forgotten how much I was hurting then.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/73bab0bfccb21f494a22992c0b97e5d2.jpg)

I think I would have gone, completely, then; if I hadn't had the release of art, climbing and surfing.
Though I kept the art pretty quiet at the time...


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense. 
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on September 26, 2016, 08:26:29 am
decent array of self help guides from Sheffield IAPT services

I may have posted the link earlier in the thread?

anyway, no harm in repeating myself

http://www.selfhelpguides.ntw.nhs.uk/iaptsheffield/
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 13, 2016, 09:32:39 am
This Saturday last, was the annual Xmas party for the Children and Families in Grief charity.
My partner and I are both widows and have gone through their counselling and their "Grief retreat" weekends  etc.
I'm a huge sceptic of much of this but grudgingly admit to getting a benefit from the process as a whole, whilst sneering inwardly at some of the more "airy-fairy" activities. Not just with them, but all the stuff I've done over the years including the PTSD/Depression counselling I had from the Navy mid '90s.

However, this year something was different.

Mid way through, looking around the faces of the other "patients", I started to feel really out of place. The exaggerated concern of the counsellors and staff, started to grate. An exchange of looks with my better half and I realised she felt the same.
We snuck into a corner and simultaneously blurted out the same thing, "I feel like a fraud!"
And that's it.
I don't feel sad anymore.
I mean, there are painful memories, but they're not agony.

I just re-downloaded Soundgarden's  Superunknown album and listened to Blackhole Sun without flinching!


Now, I also ran out of Fluoxetine this morning and I'm thinking I might not renew the prescription. I might see how the temper goes. Possibly I might not be so aggressive and intimidating these days.
I hope.
Light at the end of the tunnel and it wasn't a train!


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on December 13, 2016, 09:37:44 am
Good man Matt, a moving post. Might be worth seeing your consultant / specialist before dropping the meds though.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on December 13, 2016, 09:38:57 am
I also ran out of Fluoxetine this morning and I'm thinking I might not renew the prescription. I might see how the temper goes. Possibly I might not be so aggressive and intimidating these days.

abruptly stopping it can be a bit rough
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 13, 2016, 10:07:49 am
Was down to one a day anyway and often forgot. But you're right.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Bubba on December 22, 2016, 12:51:56 pm
Luckily I'm good atm but for those who are in a bad place "Christmas Cheer" can be a fucking nightmare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrEQIjYWRvQ

Stay strong  :boxing:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on May 02, 2017, 11:28:35 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04yy0r8

Some interesting views on here about running (and exercise to a larger extent) and depression and other mental issues.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on May 06, 2017, 08:01:03 pm
Okay, here goes...

I've lived with the black dog for over 6 years and recently its been a very constant companion. Things came to a head last night and ended with the police giving me the choice of taking myself to hospital or being sectioned under the mental health act. I went today, saw a specialist mental health nurse, have been prescribed sertraline 50mg to begin with and lined up for CBT. Going was hard, admitting that I was depressed and suicidal even harder. But, I feel better for it.

Thanks for the thread.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on May 06, 2017, 08:18:32 pm

You've taken the first and usually hardest step towards making things better - well done.   :thumbsup:

Good effort for sharing too.

I've never been 'that' bad, but simply the act of going to the docs and admitting I was suffering a number of years ago was an enormous relief and set me on the track back upwards.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on May 06, 2017, 08:48:34 pm
Good effort Andy F

in case you've not experienced it before, CBT works best if you do the homework - and if you don't feel up to doing the work, be honest about it - it also works best if you understand the mechanism by which it works, so it is worth asking for the process to be explained again if you aren't convinced that there is a mechanism that can work

also - it's pretty normal (not necessarily every time) to come out of a session feeling knackered and worse than when you went in - so it can be helpful to have a plan of what you are going to do after a session so you can just go into auto pilot and do what you planned

if you feel that there is a missing connection between you and the therapist, or that one of you is not understanding the process, be bold and say something - well trained therapists know that the relationship is important - this can be hard to do, so ask here if you need backup
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on May 06, 2017, 08:55:29 pm
Good effort Andy, it's great to hear. Have you seen the WHO black dog videos? Available on YouTube a great watch and really de-stigmatising of depression while importantly recognising it as a very common and treatable illness. Good luck with the treatment! Just backing up what Lagerstarfish said if CBT isn't for you Interpersonal Therapy for Drpression is also very effective, you can access it on the Nhs via your local IAPT service and it's homework free!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 06, 2017, 09:34:14 pm
I had to go back in the Fluoxetine, about a week ago.
Andy's post prompted me to ask about temper.
I'm big, ugly, scary and have a face that betrays my emotions way too clearly.
I'm sort of on a final warning for my explosive temper. I'm not actually violent, in fact I have quite good control of my fists. But, my partner is aware of my past and has witnessed me take on and put down a gang of 15 men that attacked our elderly neighbour. She never looked at me the same afterwards and doesn't grasp the difference between my vocal outbursts when frustrated and the other thing (which comes with little rage, actually).
I've never been able to hold it in or keep my tongue in check. Lately it's really out of control and I'm scaring my family.
So, any tips on anger management? Because I never get enough time to try the counting to ten thing, I've gone before I know it's coming; I'm thinking it would need to be chemical...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on May 06, 2017, 09:46:15 pm
or mutual counselling, like Relate, Matt?

it can make "final warnings" something that all sides understand

starting or restarting Fluoxitine can be pretty shit for the first couple of weeks in terms of anger and self destructive outbursts
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on May 06, 2017, 09:57:58 pm
I might be teaching you how to suck eggs here. However don't let things fester deal with issues that are causing you grief at the time I.e. don't leave it then other things add to the frustration. So when you go you go big.
Also try to think where and when it started.
Many years ago I did counselling course part of which was an encounter group. One time I got be arsey with one of the other group members who made a very controversial statement and then would not reply or comment I.e would not listen to anyone else.
In a tutorial I was asked who or what she reminded me of. At first I couldn't think but then it clicked it was my history teacher who refused to teach me because I put in some homework he felt was not satisfactory even though I was in the top five for history and would not even give me the chance to justify myself. I ended doing religious education instead.
So when people are not prepared to even listen to what I have to say, I tend to lose it.
The choice I have is whether I let it go that far.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on May 06, 2017, 10:19:32 pm
similar to what Webbo says

it can be very helpful to review in as much detail as you can remember the times when you have become scary - and run through the better alternatives to how you could have behaved/felt

try to recall the full details of what happened and how you felt and then replay the situation with the optimum alternative reaction from you and imagine how it would have worked out better - you probably have a reasonable stock of memories/evidence to work with; that is what you can learn from - go through them methodically

*I am not a counselor, psychiatrist etc.

edit - it can be a bit painful thinking through times when you have not been the person you want to be, but it does pay off spending a bit of time remembering those events in order to imagine how you might have reacted better - and run though that better alternative until you are sure it would be what you would do if it happened again
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on May 06, 2017, 11:00:53 pm
What I was trying to say is look for the triggers and excuse me for maybe being presumptuous( I blame the red wine) given your military background and the way you reacted in the situation with your defence of your elderly neighbour. It seems a bit like the guy charging the machine gun post. The vikings used call it the berserker, right place right time it's appropriate and to me it sounds like it was at the time. But I wasn't there and I guess your partner who was felt it was over the top.
I suspect that most men are hard wired to be the hero but but in modern society you have to channel it else where but in a world full of arseholes it isn't easy.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Catcheemonkey on May 07, 2017, 07:15:24 am
The best advice I've had on controlling anger, from a therapist a few years ago, is to simply remove myself from the situation.

Calming myself down or bottling it up might work 9 times out of 10 - but simply excusing myself and immediately leaving is much more reliable in the heat of the moment. (I've also learnt it is best to make it clear you're coming back when you've calmed down).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on May 07, 2017, 08:07:41 am
Lagers, Dan, Matt, Sam,

Thanks for the advice and support. I know it's going to be a long battle but hey, I've always liked a good old siege.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on May 07, 2017, 12:10:39 pm
Hi Andy,

Good for you for taking that step.  Things will get better...

The book I mentioned earlier in this thread "Depression: The curse of the strong" helped me understand what was going on.  It's quite cheap on Amazon.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: andy popp on May 07, 2017, 12:49:53 pm
I don't have any advice Andy but just wanted to say good luck. That can't have been any easy post to make, and even harder to admit to your feelings. Hopefully this will be the turning point.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on May 08, 2017, 10:33:51 am
All Strength to you Andy. Holler if you need any of us.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Monolith on May 08, 2017, 10:35:13 am
Lagers, Dan, Matt, Sam,

Thanks for the advice and support. I know it's going to be a long battle but hey, I've always liked a good old siege.

Andy, sending you all the best mate and props to you for airing your thoughts. Always happy to chat when you want to beast.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: roddersm on May 08, 2017, 10:54:37 am
I've never been able to hold it in or keep my tongue in check. Lately it's really out of control and I'm scaring my family.
So, any tips on anger management? Because I never get enough time to try the counting to ten thing, I've gone before I know it's coming; I'm thinking it would need to be chemical...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This might be worth a read:-

https://www.amazon.com/Chimp-Paradox-Management-Program-Confidence/dp/039916359X
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 08, 2017, 01:42:07 pm
The best advice I've had on controlling anger, from a therapist a few years ago, is to simply remove myself from the situation.

Yep, trying that one now.


This might be worth a read:-

https://www.amazon.com/Chimp-Paradox-Management-Program-Confidence/dp/039916359X

Will do.

similar to what Webbo says

it can be very helpful to review in as much detail as you can remember the times when you have become scary - and run through the better alternatives to how you could have behaved/felt

try to recall the full details of what happened and how you felt and then replay the situation with the optimum alternative reaction from you and imagine how it would have worked out better - you probably have a reasonable stock of memories/evidence to work with; that is what you can learn from - go through them methodically

*I am not a counselor, psychiatrist etc.

edit - it can be a bit painful thinking through times when you have not been the person you want to be, but it does pay off spending a bit of time remembering those events in order to imagine how you might have reacted better - and run though that better alternative until you are sure it would be what you would do if it happened again

I do the whole reviewing my actions thing at ~4am, which leads to further poor reactions a few hours later when my tired arse comes up against that day's irritating dick head... ;)

I might be teaching you how to suck eggs here. However don't let things fester deal with issues that are causing you grief at the time I.e. don't leave it then other things add to the frustration. So when you go you go big.
Also try to think where and when it started.
Many years ago I did counselling course part of which was an encounter group. One time I got be arsey with one of the other group members who made a very controversial statement and then would not reply or comment I.e would not listen to anyone else.
In a tutorial I was asked who or what she reminded me of. At first I couldn't think but then it clicked it was my history teacher who refused to teach me because I put in some homework he felt was not satisfactory even though I was in the top five for history and would not even give me the chance to justify myself. I ended doing religious education instead.
So when people are not prepared to even listen to what I have to say, I tend to lose it.
The choice I have is whether I let it go that far.

This has made a difference. A week ago, I couldn't see any way out of the hole we were in. I was constantly knackered and not sleeping properly (4am awake, sweating and running through all the shit in my mind). I was in and out of the hospital, another arthritis flare up, a nasty eye infection, severe and abrupt Reynauds. Problems with my boy at school etc etc etc. Work took a huge dive in April, with the good weather and the Easter holidays (that are usually a boom) saw a reduction of 50% on our normal monthly footfall/takings and left us having to reorganise staff rotas to save money. I had thought we were going to have to let go some staff and that kills me; when ever we've had to do it before I get really worked up and stressed. Fortunately we dodged that bullet as one staff member switched to part time.

I've also torn my MCL, only a grade 1/2 (I think) but it's been giving me enough gyp to keep me grinding my teeth. It's in the same leg as my Hallux rigidus and (apparently) likely a result of "unusual " movement of my leg because of the arthritis. They are now compounding each other exquisitely... [emoji53]

But, it's now been almost three weeks since I went back to the Quack for the Fluoxetine. That felt like such a failure. It's been 5 years since my nadir and I was sure I'd crossed the bridge on my grief etc and I should be "normal". And, this isn't grief related; I'm just not able to cope as I once could. Every little thing feels like the start of something huge. Every lump or pain is a potential Cancer. Every brown envelope is a herald of financial misery. Every domestic tiff is the end of the world. It's all never ending. It's all huge.
Then the Fluoxetine kicks in. It feels like that happened, suddenly, yesterday.
Both of us, Polly and I. Possibly just a blip, but feels more. I will be heading back to the quack to ask for counselling and anger management, though. I've not had any formal counselling since leaving the mob in '96 and it might be overdue...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on May 08, 2017, 02:45:20 pm
As ex forces you should be able to access the Veterans Mental Health outreach team. It's part of the NHS and they might be able to see you quicker than main stream mental health/ counselling services.
However like any NHS service it's can vary from region to region. In Yorkshire and Humber it's no longer a project as there is funding for 3 years but they've only coughed up enough for half a team.
If nothing else you should be able get an assessment by Mental Health Professional who understands the military and then either offered therapy or directed to the appropriate therapist.
I might be able to get you your local teams number tomorrow when I go into work, if you let me know what area you live. I know you are in Devon somewhere.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: andy popp on May 08, 2017, 03:03:27 pm
I was sure I'd crossed the bridge on my grief etc and I should be "normal". And, this isn't grief related

I hope this doesn't come across as contrarian, but I can't help wondering why or how you're sure this isn't at least in part grief related? Very obviously there are a number of much more immediate stressors in your life right now, and its probably right to focus on them, but even as the years pass grief can remain as part, however submerged, of how we react to stress. I think a lot of expectations around "normal" as it relates to grief can be very constrictive or even counter productive.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on May 08, 2017, 03:23:02 pm
AndyF - (it sounds trite but..) well done for posting. Matt - sound like a. lot. of stuff going on... :(

I don't think there is a normal for grief - or a right or wrong 'way' or 'amount' to grieve. Everyone seems to have their own way, time and pace... and (IMHO) there is nothing wrong with that...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 08, 2017, 09:09:08 pm
Yeah, just re-read my own drivel... "This isn't Grief related, I just can't cope like I used to". And why is that Sherlock? Because you can't shrug it off like you used to, you plonker.
I had reached a point where I was struggling to talk to people or cope in any social environment. In other words, depression had crept up on me again and despite all these years of dodging the fucker; I didn't spot it.
For whatever reason, reading Andy's post, Fluoxetine kicking in, sorting out some of the problems, having a crisis zero sleep night and then collapsing into 10 hours straight undisturbed slumber the next night or just plain realising what was happening; I woke up on Sunday in a different place and it seems to be lasting. Actually managing to get things done.

Andy, let me know how you find the CBT, if you don't mind. I've always been cynical of "counselling " in general. Our whole tribe trooped off for a "Grief retreat" last year, over a long weekend, with a very well meaning charity. The kids seemed to benefit from throwing clay at walls and meeting fellow bereaved children etc, but Polly and I just felt out of place and slightly patronised (not by all of the counsellors, just a few). So I'd like to know how a professional approach differs. My experience in the final year of Naval service was patchy. I think PTSD was still considered a "Syndrome " and not real then, the Psychologists were quite good (who I saw weekly) but the Psychiatrist I saw once a month was a complete wanker (a view shared by the entire cohort in our monthly "group therapy" sessions).
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on May 09, 2017, 06:48:24 am
Matt, of course I'll let you know how the CBT works for me. Hope you get yourself sorted.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Monolith on May 09, 2017, 09:43:28 am
Really good to see folk talking to one another here and helping each other out. Sending psyche to all of you.

I struggled with a bout of anxiety in my teens/20s  and at peak anxiety I was on a heart rate monitor for three days hallucinating in hospital. That was in part due to a vodka/Dr Pepper binge whilst playing scrolling Japanese shoot em ups for 10 hours. Bit of a deadly storm but it's funny looking back. Should really have written to let Dr Pepper know the answer to their question "what's the worst that could happen?".

Irrespective of whether you're climbing or otherwise Andy F, keep your body and mind honed with an activity. In truth I miss climbing massively but the cycle of back pain it brings me is just plain frustrating and switching to another sport that I can throw myself in to has helped me massively. Given your propensity for hard training, I think it's important to supplant this with another focus.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on May 09, 2017, 09:54:08 am
Andy, let me know how you find the CBT, if you don't mind. I've always been cynical of "counselling " in general. Our whole tribe trooped off for a "Grief retreat" last year, over a long weekend, with a very well meaning charity. The kids seemed to benefit from throwing clay at walls and meeting fellow bereaved children etc, but Polly and I just felt out of place and slightly patronised (not by all of the counsellors, just a few). So I'd like to know how a professional approach differs. My experience in the final year of Naval service was patchy. I think PTSD was still considered a "Syndrome " and not real then, the Psychologists were quite good (who I saw weekly) but the Psychiatrist I saw once a month was a complete wanker (a view shared by the entire cohort in our monthly "group therapy" sessions).

Hi Matt, good to hear you're feeling a bit better than you were.
Regards military psychological counselling service - it's changed a lot since you and I were in the forces. At least in my NHS area (Wales) the service is very well set up and staffed with well-trained veteran therapists used to dealing with a lot of issues from Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as older stuff from n.Ireland and Bosnia etc. The issue doesn't need to be related to military service though.

My experience: I buried an event that happened in Bosnia in 1995 for twenty years in a locked box at the bottom of an ocean. I didn't tell a single soul even partners. It finally hit home hard in November 2015, the trigger is unimportant. I was severely floored and realised I needed to seek help and to tell someone about what had happened in Bosnia.
In Wales (don't know if it differs from elsewhere) you get priority service if you're ex-military and request mental health services. I requested via my GP to see a veteran therapist but you can just go direct without the GP and you'll be able to see them. I think it took 2 weeks until the initial meeting then another few weeks to arrange a series of counselling sessions.
I would have run a mile at the thought of a 'grief retreat'. I'm pretty cynical about anything I consider hokey. Suppose everyone's different. The NHS Wales Veterans service is one-to-one sessions with a psychologist trained in counselling. After 4 one-to-one counselling sessions I was done. It did me a ton of good and 'got it out of my system'. I'd recommend seeing a VT for anyone suffering mental health difficulties.


The NHS Wales Veterans  service is here: http://www.veteranswales.co.uk/
The English NHS veterans service contacts are here: http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Militaryhealthcare/veterans-families-reservists/Documents/TIL%20veterans%20mental%20health%20services%20contacts%20for%20the%20web.pdf
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 09, 2017, 05:26:30 pm
Thanks Pete. [emoji106]
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on May 10, 2017, 08:42:05 pm
Really good to see folk talking to one another here and helping each other out. Sending psyche to all of you.

I struggled with a bout of anxiety in my teens/20s  and at peak anxiety I was on a heart rate monitor for three days hallucinating in hospital. That was in part due to a vodka/Dr Pepper binge whilst playing scrolling Japanese shoot em ups for 10 hours. Bit of a deadly storm but it's funny looking back. Should really have written to let Dr Pepper know the answer to their question "what's the worst that could happen?".

Irrespective of whether you're climbing or otherwise Andy F, keep your body and mind honed with an activity. In truth I miss climbing massively but the cycle of back pain it brings me is just plain frustrating and switching to another sport that I can throw myself in to has helped me massively. Given your propensity for hard training, I think it's important to supplant this with another focus.

Your very right about this thread helping out Tom, its helpful and cathartic at the same time.

Since the diagnosis I've looked back at my periods of depression in a new light. I know I've said and done things that weren't the real me, but the depressed me. I've disclosed to work and they have helped greatly, putting things in place to support and hopefully overcome this problem.

Not climbing is difficult and I know it would help if I got out, but that is a bridge to cross at a later date.

Again, thanks all for the support.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Hoseyb on May 10, 2017, 10:54:05 pm
Thinking of you Andy. Those of you ( like yourself)  who know me a little, may have cottoned on that I'm not always 100% mentally.  But knowing that you're not alone is the main thing for me. That, and having friends and family that accept me as I am, warts and all. Slasher was my friend despite the piss taking, and, well, piss. And I'm happy to still be a friend.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on May 11, 2017, 08:50:53 am

Not climbing is difficult and I know it would help if I got out, but that is a bridge to cross at a later date.


Doesn't have to be climbing Andy. Anything helps. I went off the rails a bit when I  couldn't climb 2 years ago due to tennis elbow. When I did my thumb in last year and was out again, I decided to find other outlets and started running and cycling. Anything to get you out the house and accelerate the heartrate a bit helps otherwise its a downward spiral.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on June 01, 2017, 11:31:57 am
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170525161321.htm
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on June 01, 2017, 12:12:02 pm
[open goal]They've clearly never been to Parisella's or they'd hesitate recommending bouldering as treatment for depression.. cause of perhaps?[/open goal]
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on July 07, 2017, 10:59:26 pm
Thinking of you Andy. Those of you ( like yourself)  who know me a little, may have cottoned on that I'm not always 100% mentally.  But knowing that you're not alone is the main thing for me. That, and having friends and family that accept me as I am, warts and all. Slasher was my friend despite the piss taking, and, well, piss. And I'm happy to still be a friend.

I thought I'd give you an update. I've had some very productive sessions and the meds are working well. The black dog is still there, but distant and vague.. I look back on my Facebook posts as a different person. I am a climber. I always will be. Life is hard. Fight to the end. Never give up.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on July 07, 2017, 11:58:53 pm
Andy, I hope you're doing OK. Depression can be/is such an isolating experience. I remember, when I moved to Sheffield, the only thing that seemed to matter - re climbing - was that you loved it (most of the time). You knew the score, and so did everyone else. It was the most profound feeling of being accepted into a community. I'm not sure that things are quite the same now, but we can all help to make sure that the most important part of being a climber, remains being part of a community where everyone else knows why you love what you do. I hope we all remember that people don't disappear when they aren't actively out there climbing - or posting here. I've found just being at the crag, hanging out, an important thing to try to do, regardless of whether you get on the rock. You don't have to be pulling down, to be part of the family  8)  Good posts, and great thread.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on July 08, 2017, 12:33:44 pm
Pleased to hear your news Andy.  It's good you're doing some therapy along with the meds.. it all helps.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tk421a on September 03, 2017, 10:19:12 am
Thought this might be interesting to some:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2234616/life-after-near-death-cory-richards
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on September 03, 2017, 04:56:12 pm
Great article - thanks for sharing it.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on September 29, 2017, 12:00:50 pm
http://knowrecall.com/10-photos-prove-depression-no-face/

Look out for yourselves, and each other.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on September 29, 2017, 04:20:25 pm
 :agree:

 :no:
 
Def coming into that time of the year.. I can't see the Black Dog yet, but can hear something barking.. off in the distance.

Keep fighting..  :boxing: keep dancing..  :dance1:

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: kelvin on September 29, 2017, 08:09:04 pm
Andy, let me know how you find the CBT, if you don't mind. I've always been cynical of "counselling " in general. Our whole tribe trooped off for a "Grief retreat" last year, over a long weekend, with a very well meaning charity. The kids seemed to benefit from throwing clay at walls and meeting fellow bereaved children etc, but Polly and I just felt out of place and slightly patronised (not by all of the counsellors, just a few). So I'd like to know how a professional approach differs. My experience in the final year of Naval service was patchy. I think PTSD was still considered a "Syndrome " and not real then, the Psychologists were quite good (who I saw weekly) but the Psychiatrist I saw once a month was a complete wanker (a view shared by the entire cohort in our monthly "group therapy" sessions).



Hi Matt, good to hear you're feeling a bit better than you were.
Regards military psychological counselling service - it's changed a lot since you and I were in the forces. At least in my NHS area (Wales) the service is very well set up and staffed with well-trained veteran therapists used to dealing with a lot of issues from Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as older stuff from n.Ireland and Bosnia etc. The issue doesn't need to be related to military service though.

My experience: I buried an event that happened in Bosnia in 1995 for twenty years in a locked box at the bottom of an ocean. I didn't tell a single soul even partners. It finally hit home hard in November 2015, the trigger is unimportant. I was severely floored and realised I needed to seek help and to tell someone about what had happened in Bosnia.
In Wales (don't know if it differs from elsewhere) you get priority service if you're ex-military and request mental health services. I requested via my GP to see a veteran therapist but you can just go direct without the GP and you'll be able to see them. I think it took 2 weeks until the initial meeting then another few weeks to arrange a series of counselling sessions.
I would have run a mile at the thought of a 'grief retreat'. I'm pretty cynical about anything I consider hokey. Suppose everyone's different. The NHS Wales Veterans service is one-to-one sessions with a psychologist trained in counselling. After 4 one-to-one counselling sessions I was done. It did me a ton of good and 'got it out of my system'. I'd recommend seeing a VT for anyone suffering mental health difficulties.


The NHS Wales Veterans  service is here: http://www.veteranswales.co.uk/
The English NHS veterans service contacts are here: http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Militaryhealthcare/veterans-families-reservists/Documents/TIL%20veterans%20mental%20health%20services%20contacts%20for%20the%20web.pdf

Just to echo what Pete has said - I was diagnosed with PTSD in 2009. Sitting in the waiting area with before the first session was difficult, I'd worked often in mental health hospitals as a decorator but being a patient/client felt overwhelming for a few minutes sat there, plus I'm generally suspicious of what I view as mumbo jumbo and it seemed to me that counseling came under that. I only had two sessions, that was all I needed and it turned everything around. I can only say how astonished I was at the difference it made to me at that time, truly wondrous.
Apart from an accident this year triggering the nightmares again for a week or so, I've been okay. Nice to hear it worked for someone else too.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on September 29, 2017, 08:56:17 pm
I'm 7 weeks in to the 9 week course of Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy which Sheffield IAPT offer to people who want to increase their chances of avoiding a recurrence of depression

the course itself has been very well run, the homework has taken some serious determination to get through (an hour a day for 8 weeks!), but I've learned a whole bunch of useful stuff about being able to observe my mind's workings and see them as just that rather than as FACTS

the basic principle is to start on long meditations and then be able to apply what you learn to shorter exercises for regular use in everyday life

there are a lot of resources around - search for MBCT. Bangor uni have a fine collection of audio tracks to download for free

I don't think I would have persisted to the point where I am learning really useful stuff if I hadn't had the guided sessions and discussions

I feel pretty optimistic about this as a tool for keeping me well
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on September 29, 2017, 09:31:43 pm
Largers, I'm very glad to hear the therapy is working for you. Keep it up. My own CBT helps me see the world and my position in it in a much more positive way and I urge anyone feeling down to try it.

To anyone who is struggling, keep fighting. You can keep the black dog away from the gates.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 29, 2017, 09:46:10 pm
Largers, I'm very glad to hear the therapy is working for you. Keep it up. My own CBT helps me see the world and my position in it in a much more positive way and I urge anyone feeling down to try it.

To anyone who is struggling, keep fighting. You can keep the black dog away from the gates.

I'm actually just quite pleased to now be sure that you were not the Andy F that died in Yosemite.
I was reasonably sure after I found out the age of the poor bloke, but it was still too embarrassing to ask...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on September 29, 2017, 09:53:04 pm
Largers, I'm very glad to hear the therapy is working for you. Keep it up. My own CBT helps me see the world and my position in it in a much more positive way and I urge anyone feeling down to try it.

To anyone who is struggling, keep fighting. You can keep the black dog away from the gates.

I'm actually just quite pleased to now be sure that you were not the Andy F that died in Yosemite.
I was reasonably sure after I found out the age of the poor bloke, but it was still too embarrassing to ask...

That makes two of us, but it must be terrible for that lads family  :wavecry:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on September 29, 2017, 10:29:04 pm
 :lol:   Not sure its politic to use the laughing emotithing in this thread but This....
Quote
I'm actually just quite pleased to now be sure that you were not the Andy F that died in Yosemite.

(I actually looked at Andy F's recent posts earlier today to see if he'd been talking about a forthcoming trip to the valley).

Glad its not you Andy, but still sorry for someone else and their loved ones.. :(

sorry #offtopic
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on September 29, 2017, 11:36:50 pm
Largers, I'm very glad to hear the therapy is working for you.

cheers dude

I'm OK at the moment and therefore in a good state to learn new stuff

a relapse prevention approach is new to me - feels odd doing this work when I feel/function OK - it's interesting when we discuss how to apply the techniques to depression related stuff; normally, when I'm well, I don't think about those bad times in any detail and try my best not to think about them at all.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on October 10, 2017, 06:52:36 pm
Hope everyone is feeling okay today. If not, talk about it  :goodidea: :great:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on October 18, 2017, 01:11:08 pm
I thought about which thread to stick this in and figured this one was probably the most appropriate http://mountainjournal.org/when-tragedy-hits-a-mountain-town (http://mountainjournal.org/when-tragedy-hits-a-mountain-town)

I also don't think this need to measure up against peers is unique to the young. 

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: duncan on October 19, 2017, 08:22:27 am
Thanks Ben. It reminded me to get in touch with someone, so thanks for that.

I'm not remotely connected with that world any more, and I'm not a Millenial, so I'm not sure how much of it I go along with. I lived in Tahoe for a time and, if that was anywhere to go by, affluent mountain towns can be weird places.

More generally, I'm less pessimistic about Millenial mental health. Gut feeling: there seem to be fewer deeply f*cked up people than in my youth, a lot of moderate anxiety perhaps but more openness about mental health issues and willingness to seek help. Data: suicide and self-medication with hard drugs and alcohol all a lot lower than in the 1980s.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on October 24, 2017, 11:48:07 pm
And now you're trembling on a rocky ledge
Staring down into a heartless sea
Can't face life on a razor's edge
Nothings what you thought it would be
All of us get lost in the darkness
Dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter
Dreamers turn to look at the cars
Turn around and turn around and turn around
Turn around and walk the razor's edge
Don't turn your back
And slam the door on me

Neal Peart may well get some shit for his earlier lyrics, but he combined hammer and nail here.

This is one of the songs I go to when things are hard.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on November 29, 2017, 08:34:40 pm
I should have listened to my own advice...

Just spent 3 nights in a MHU, voluntarily, after a major down on Saturday night. The family and staff in the unit have been amazingly supportive, things are looking a little brighter.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Wil on November 29, 2017, 09:10:54 pm
Sorry to hear that Andy, but glad you were able to seek help.

The people around you can be amazing with helping you deal with this stuff, even when you might feel guilty for having to take advantage of it.

This thread has been really helpful to me in putting some things in perspective, seeking help and understanding that the people in my life are happy to be there for me.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on November 29, 2017, 10:05:21 pm
I should have listened to my own advice...

I recognize that, Andy!

I tried (several times) to make a video of my well self offering advice to my unwell self - I found myself laughing at times, angry at others, but still couldn't say what I wanted to the camera in a way that I thought would work.

I have stuff written down, but when I am really down I generally think it's not worth looking at and, if I do look at it, it doesn't mean anything to me (edit - this isn't quite true, it has helped a few times, but mostly I remember it not working, coz that's what us stupid humans do)

What works best for me is non verbal/language reminders - I have a few photos that usually remind me of feeling OK and a few videos (that I made) that can really hit the spot; not always, but way more than other advice I have tried to record.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on November 29, 2017, 10:10:14 pm
Just spent 3 nights in a MHU,

not just for you Andy, but there is a lot of wellness to be gained from bigging up the people that help us

Radio 4's All in the mind awards (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1Rs8XTsq0gxfS2v66X4kbW9/all-in-the-mind-awards-2018)

I've written stuff to people who have helped me and the process helps me a lot - also helps me be more clear about why help works.

manly  :hug:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: iain on November 30, 2017, 08:12:15 am
... The family and staff in the unit have been amazingly supportive, things are looking a little brighter.
That's really good to hear Andy, take care
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Monolith on December 01, 2017, 08:22:21 pm
Keep on the up Andy. Here any time you want to chat beast.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on December 21, 2017, 07:38:20 pm
Just finished reading Dawes' book. Very interesting overall. Pretty topical for this thread.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 25, 2017, 11:10:52 pm
Hi folks.

Hope everyone's doing OK.

All I have to say about this video is..

ONE. HUNDRED. PERCENT.

https://youtu.be/PY9DcIMGxMs

For a long time, I've been revisiting climbing, and looking at it through the lens of bonding and separation.

How lucky am I to have such a healthy drug to turn to? There are distinct times when, like the rats and the drug infused water, I find myself not wanting or feeling I need to turn to it, and I'm painfully aware of that.

If you do have to join the club, there is no "price of admission" beyond the peace or enjoyment you find, no grade to mark your arrival .. and that is precisely what we should extend to the world and people around us.

xx
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on March 30, 2018, 03:54:25 pm
https://www.facebook.com/CASMCLIMBING/

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on May 11, 2018, 11:25:28 pm
I'm just bumping this. Because it's fucking important.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Downclimber on May 30, 2018, 10:46:01 pm
It is.

Kudos to all the posters, and I hope you're all well :-)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Downclimber on June 15, 2018, 07:44:36 am
OK, so not so much of a black dog question, more of a technicolour kaleidoscope question but has anyone ever taken quetiapine?

DID IT MAKE YOU FAT BECAUSE I'M QUITE GOOD AT CLIMBING AND THIS MAY MATTER  :popcorn:? Also will it mean that I can no longer hang the beastmaker 6s with 5 kilos?  :weakbench: :dance1:  :beer2: :boxing:

Flip it, I'm gonna take it anyway and trying super hard but I can't take zopiclone forever, and it makes me sleep for about four hours before springing out of bed like a five year old on christmas day  :bounce:.

Also why is there a sexy times emoticon thingy? Hehe  :lets_do_it_wild:

Much love xx
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: hansmaro on June 15, 2018, 01:41:38 pm
It wont make you fat, unless you are on very high doses over an extended period. If you take it due to sleeping-problems, most likely it will be sufficient with 25 or 50 mg. At such a low dose, the Quetiapine only has antihistamine-properties.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Offwidth on June 15, 2018, 06:01:13 pm
Some positive stuff. This year was the most satistied I've ever been in my 30+ year academic career in terms of helping those students cope on my course who are dealing with ongoing mental health problems. Nearly a fifth of my final year students are suffering from mental health difficulties,  mainly varying degrees of depressive illness or severe anxiety. Support from my University for these students really improved just because each of the academic schools employed someone, and, importantly, we could refer students to them as course leaders. They acted in a triage role before appropriate further support could be arranged or just provided a regular extra voice of support. The guy in my school has seen several hundreds of students this year. This is in contrast to what happened until a few years ago  when students had to self refer for centralised Uni counselling and there was then often a massive queue for appointments at busy times  (not helpful, if problems are acute... often such students had to rely on the chaplain services).  I've railed against some pretty horrible treatment in the past, including students timed out of a degree course as in the past we had a 6 year limit: often bright students who had to take long periods away from their studies and in their better periods just couldn't quite get all the assessments completed in time.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Downclimber on June 15, 2018, 06:39:41 pm
It wont make you fat, unless you are on very high doses over an extended period. If you take it due to sleeping-problems, most likely it will be sufficient with 25 or 50 mg. At such a low dose, the Quetiapine only has antihistamine-properties.

Cheers for the reply, it's 200mg for now, to be reviewed in a week or so. It's not really for sleeping problems.

Offwidth, that's awesome news. I had a terrible experience at the first uni I went to.I failed all of my second year university exams, in the midst of a period of severe depression. This signified the end of a somewhat disastrous first attempt to obtain a degree at Imperial College.

The interactions I had with some (not all) academics there were so discouraging that I'd never been able to ask for help. I'd received various levels of verbal abuse from those who were supposed to offer pastoral care, ranging from my personal tutor to my head of course. For example: “Your exam results are really, really bad (58%). Anyone walking past this university could get these results”.  Or on the fact that I knew, after year one, that my seventeen-year-old self had chosen the wrong course: “If you don't finish this course, you'll never finish anything”.

That experience destroyed my self-belief. I left broken. In the interview I had to determine whether or not I should be allowed to retake the year, they asked if I thought I had any extenuating circumstances. I said no. I wasn’t even sure if I believed in mental health; and if I did, I didn’t want to attribute my failure to it. To this day, I don’t believe that that was the main problem with my experience.

At the second uni I tried, I had a personal tutor who wanted to help, and felt able to ask lecturers when I didn't understand a concept. I made some amazing friends and I loved my degree. I think you are right, universities have made good progress here. If we want to get the best out of people they need appropriate support.


Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: andy popp on June 16, 2018, 03:11:59 am
Like Offwidth I have 30+ years in academia. I am just aghast, appalled, at your description of the treatment you received at the hands of some academics. It is completely unforgivable, cruel and unnecessary. I'm truly sorry you had to endure that. The department you were in had clearly developed an extremely unhealthy culture, perhaps linked to seeing themselves as part of an "elite" institution. I'm glad you have since had a much better experience. Learning should be a shared, enriching experience.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Downclimber on June 16, 2018, 09:03:11 am
I'm truly sorry you had to endure that. The department you were in had clearly developed an extremely unhealthy culture, perhaps linked to seeing themselves as part of an "elite" institution. I'm glad you have since had a much better experience. Learning should be a shared, enriching experience.

Thanks Andy, I suspect you're right about the elite institution. It's a shame.

Having experienced a third university while doing a PGCE and then a fourth (trying to get a PhD if I can only get my mental health under control) I've met similar attitudes to you and offwidth, nothing like Imperial, and I'm glad.

On the plus side, I've been as involved as I've had time to be with teaching and demonstrating to undergrads which I absolutely love and I would do anything to help them learn so hopefully, If I can make it as far as teaching, I can use the experience wisely.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: duncan on June 16, 2018, 10:10:58 am
Shocking. If it’s any consolation, I think institutions are somewhat better at supporting students today than they were 20 years ago, if mine is anything to go by. This has nothing to do with compassion and everything to do with National Student Survey results.

Meanwhile ~38% of academics report mental health problems but only 6% feel able to disclose them to their university (https://royalsociety.org/~/media/policy/topics/diversity-in-science/understanding-mental-health-in-the-research-environment.pdf).
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Offwidth on June 16, 2018, 11:30:08 am
I dropped Imperial as my plan B on UCAS when I realised from talking to friends I met on my pre Uni industrial year as a graduate apprentice (a fabulous initiative that Thatcher did for soon afterwards)  that Imperial had a reputation in the late 70s and early 80s for almost testing some of the brightest students in the UK to destruction, in a few of their STEM teams. Progression rates were sometimes dreadful, which was idiotic given the quality of intake (3/4 A's and 2 S leveles were the norm).  From a course design perspective  Cambridge turned out to have the exact opposite attitude.. well planned courses with good academic support and superb flexibility if the course you started on was not for you. Plus a big push to do other stuff, than just academic work. Hardly anyone failed. Mental health support was still a bit patchy (depended on your colllege and tutors) and sadly I had friends take their lives in both institutions due partly to pressure to succeed. It was weird, even if prepared and healthy, moving from being one of the brightest kids in your school to being ordinary.

Anyhow, it all cemented my view on how I should treat students as an academic.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on June 16, 2018, 01:52:04 pm
There are many issues at play with student mental health. Many universities now have good/excellent units for this - but - the student has to refer themselves. (They’re 18 so aside from ask students to go - we can’t do much else).


A big change since maybe some of us went to university is that now children are under FAR more pressure at school to pass exams - reach targets etc.. once they come to university - with the freedom and lack of parental support that comes of living away from home (and being 18 as above) then things can suddenly release - and people have real trouble. Like they’ve been patched together to get through A level s then......

The recent Bristol cases highlighted in the Guardian this week also flagged up how centralised student welfare has made getting help (for a student - from their perspective) much less personal an experience. There is a website or w phone number or a generic email address rather than a PERSON. for sure - for some this mah be preferable - but for most our research says not. This is what’s happened st our place - no more student welfare staff  in departments - instead ‘just call the Student hub’ etc...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on June 16, 2018, 05:09:28 pm
My experience which is now a couple of years past and this is from supervising mental health staff supporting students. Is that if the student has a serious mental heath problem and their behaviour is impacting on the department they are in or effecting other students they may share accommodation with. There is little sympathy for their condition and the university can’t get rid of them fast enough.
After all its effecting their figures and business.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on June 17, 2018, 01:07:39 pm
Quick (?) hypothetical / speculative (??) question about depression / climbing:

Are there any top climbers (or generally very dedicated / focused / passionate climbers) who have managed to climb or keep climbing are a high standard despite having "conventional" depression??

I'm talking about bog standard hide-under-the-duvet-can't-get-up-can't-face-the-outside-world-struggle-to-eat-and-wash-can't-keep-in-contact-with-friends-no-energy-no-emotion-no-pleasure-even-in-nice-stuff-can't-do-things-to-help-oneself-rotting-away-waiting-until-bedtime-just-to-sleep-life-away depression.

That to me seems like highly incompatible with the active / energetic / social / challenging / intense nature of regular, determined high-standard climbing - pretty much the polar opposite. So are there any cases of people managing to do it anyway and juggle both contradictory aspects??
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on June 17, 2018, 06:09:24 pm
PMed you Fiend
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Herbert on June 24, 2018, 03:31:39 pm
I've been a lurker here for longer than I care to remember. I'm going through some shit at the moment that's hard to bear, but reading this thread through from begining to end and reading about others who have shared a lot and helped each other a lot has, in turn, helped me. The Internet can be a dark and poisenous place much of the time but there are pockets of light. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Offwidth on June 24, 2018, 04:08:38 pm
Very apt and praiseworthy: UKB being a pocket of light that can help to pull through a tricky looking problem.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on June 25, 2018, 09:16:14 am
Yes indeed.  I hope you have someone to talk to Herbet.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on June 25, 2018, 10:06:41 am
Indeed. If you need a complete stranger to talk to, feel free to message.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on June 25, 2018, 11:53:57 pm
reading this thread through from begining to end and reading about others who have shared a lot and helped each other a lot has, in turn, helped me.

the thread isn't finished yet!

asking and contributing can only help you, us and other people in the future

thanks for posting Herbert, you inspired me to go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all again

nice one

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Herbert on June 26, 2018, 09:30:29 am
Thanks all, kind words. I'm lucky that I do have people to talk to, but this thread still helps. Perhaps it's something to do with reading thoughts on the subject from people I don't know, but through climbing can identify with in some way.

My brother killed himself almost two months ago which I can't begin to describe the impact of. I feel anonymous enough to mention this without feeling uncomfortable. So my only contribution is (as others have said) if you're contemplating suicide please, please speak to someone, call someone. Call anyone. Send me an email. The Samaritans are always there https://www.samaritans.org

And if you think someone might be at risk of harming themselves, try to say something to them. Its difficult, it's uncomfortable, but the consequences of not talking about it can be so much worse.  :hug:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on June 26, 2018, 10:00:17 am
Condolences on your loss Herbert. And very brave of you for posting this.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on June 26, 2018, 03:32:10 pm
Fuck that is very harsh Herbert. I hope coping with it improves eventually. And glad you could glean something useful from here.

Wise words about seeking help or trying to help others.





...

Not to derail Herberts situation as I'm sure we can have concurrent discussions on here. But: When I posted my previous post I was actually feeling okay, it was a matter of genuine curiosity. Thanks to lagers and one other for the response (and someone who replied with suggestions of help). Does anyone else have any anecdotes or ideas related to that?? It is still something I'm interested in.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on June 26, 2018, 04:15:48 pm
Hi Fiend, in my experience and anecdotally people experiencing a significant range of physical (psycho-vegetative) symptoms of depression e.g sleep disturbance, weight loss / gain, slowing down or agitation etc would struggle to perform at a high level during that period?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: JamieG on June 26, 2018, 04:23:08 pm
Hi Herbert,

So sorry for your loss. Depression is a truly horrible illness. I can't imagine how you are feeling, but I hope you find a way through it. And find this thread useful.

As someone who has struggled with depression over the years, talking with family and friends has definitely helped.

Cheers Jamie
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on June 26, 2018, 09:14:21 pm
Herbert,

Things may be desperate now. They will get better. There is light at the end of the tunnel. You. Are. Worth. It.

You've taken the first step. That's the hardest. Keep talking, keep sharing. People do want to know.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: mrjonathanr on June 26, 2018, 09:39:23 pm
Ouf Herbert!  My  sincere condolences.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on June 27, 2018, 08:17:24 pm
On this thread... as helpful as it is.  The only thing I would change about it. Knowing what I now know, having been through the downs and ups and the subsequent learning and change, is the emphasis on meds. 

The citalopram and CBT certainly helped me in a difficult period and alleviated the symptoms, but after I’d finished it, I realised I had to dig in a lot deeper and it took some more work with a therapist to sort it out.

A few years on and two and bit years into training as a Psychotherapist and working on my Saturdays this year as a volunteer counsellor with drop-in clients at http://www.thecaravan.org.uk/ (http://www.thecaravan.org.uk/), I’m learning about and experiencing a much broader and deeper appreciation of depression and anxiety.  What it is, how it plays out and what might be causing the symptoms to manifest.  That and a whole lot more...

This article (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/07/therapy-wars-revenge-of-freud-cognitive-behavioural-therapy) from Oliver Burkeman has a controversial title and an overemphasis on Freudian psychodynamics that I don’t fully agree with.  However, the core argument and supporting research points toward an increasing recognition of the value of a longer term therapeutic relationship in healing and helping.

It’s a real tragedy that longer term therapy isn’t available on the NHS and the debate continues between the NHS, UKCP and the Government.  That said, there are many low-cost options offered by private therapists and free-of-charge centres staffed by volunteer qualified practitioners and trainees (most of whom have more experience than a CBT counsellor) available in many cities and towns that I’d recommend to anyone who’s looking for help with ongoing problems or something more than a quick fix.  Also, if anyone is working with CBT, don’t stop, don’t doubt its efficacy; it’s brilliant and it works - it just might not be the one thing that sorts it all out.

I’ve written and then deleted several versions of this post for several months out of fear of a “Well he would say that wouldn’t he” reaction but, fuck it. I started the thread in 2012 and it seems to have had a positive impact so this post might help somebody.


Reply to thread or PM me (I might not answer immediately) with any questions.  I’m not in able to deal with anything personal but might be able to point in a useful direction.


Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on June 27, 2018, 09:01:03 pm
I get what you’re saying, but I can’t seem to make “therapy” work.
So I live on Fluoxetine.

Stupid things can precipitate me into a steep decline.
Losing my Pads on Sunday sent me into a crash of epic proportions that has only begun to retreat today. I have had maybe five hours sleep since Sunday and three of them were last night.
(That’s losing the pads on top of several other things, not least taking the Lad to the park to play footy that same evening, only to end up in A&E because he broke his wrist).

But, every time I get sufficiently organised to seek professional help, I sit there feeling like a total fraud.
Or, feel like that and give up even looking for help, convince myself it’s fine, I’m fine, life is fine, it was just a blip and I’ll see it coming next time, and what do I have to worry about really, and (fucks sake) I’m a big scary, back end of a bus, bloke ‘wot old ladies cross the road to avoid.

So, today, I borrowed some pads, climbed in the sun, or lay there reading my book between bouts, went and lifted some weights, had a swim and cooked a dinner for the family before heading into work this evening. So now I feel fine, it’s fine, life is fine and that help I swore I would look for, when confronted by a shaken Mrs OMM on Monday, it’s not a priority anymore.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on June 28, 2018, 11:15:05 am
Good post FD and interesting post OMM - you do not sound like a total fraud at all! And the things you've been through and the things you're trying to do.....warrant any help you need.

....

SSRIs / NSRIs = NSAIDs
CBT = movement coaching to work around condition
Long term therapy = long term physio to rectify underlying cause

Maybe  :-\
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on June 28, 2018, 04:52:56 pm
Those sound like reasonable analogies.

I’ve developed too many self coping mechanisms, all too able to stick a bandage on the wound and ignore it until the bandage gets knocked off again.

As long as the bandage is there, it’s easy to imagne it’s healing, and hard to commit precious time to seeking the help I actually need.

Too painful and consuming, when the bandage is dislodged, to do anything beyond slapping on another; whilst growling at those who would help.

And yet, intellectually, recognising what I’m doing, but...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on June 29, 2018, 08:57:20 am
Good post FD and interesting post OMM - you do not sound like a total fraud at all! And the things you've been through and the things you're trying to do.....warrant any help you need.

....

SSRIs / NSRIs = NSAIDs
CBT = movement coaching to work around condition
Long term therapy = long term physio to rectify underlying cause

Maybe  :-\

It’s a hard analogy to make, maybe ssri’s or antidepressants in general would be more equatable to treatment for diabetes. E.g insulin, metformin etc and depression can be thought of as having both genetic and environmental / nurtured factors to individual degrees e.g. type 1 or type 2 diabetes to continue the analogy. Therapeutic factors outside the specific technique are probably at least as important than the technical apspects of therapy itself, CBT could be analogous with exercise therapy for the mind. In longer term therapy depending on the type offered relational dynamics may play a more front stage role. CBT has just had more funding and active interest in proving its efficacy over the years which is why it’s been more popular with the government- because they can prove it works. However there is a growing recognition that humanistic, interpersonal and psychodynamic approaches are also very important and effective particularly for those with a long standing relationship / interpersonal aspect to their depression. In routine therapy accessed from the gp hopefully there will be an increasing range of options over the next 10 years e.g. dynamic interpersonal therapy DIT for depression. The main problem is that IAPT would like to train people and offer these therapies but something like DIT training requires a solid foundation in psychodynamic psychotherapy which isn’t currently recognised by IAPT for funding. The most important thing is recognising depression as a common and treatable ‘illness’ and continuing to de-stigmatise it with open discussions like these.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on June 29, 2018, 01:37:52 pm
Good post, interesting to read. I agree my analogy was tentative (but I know nothing about diabetes).

Thanks for your earlier response to my question. I've realised, after further discussion, that I am looking at things from a less useful way. I'm looking at the seeming incompatibility of "psycho-vegetative" (great term) depression and elite (effort and/or success) physical activity only at one point in time - rather that considering that someone might be overall the latter, whilst having periods of the former in between times. Approximately.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on June 29, 2018, 07:58:00 pm
Absolutely, for many depression is episodic. I think there’s a few accounts of famous athletes talking about this. Like Ian ‘thorpedo’ Thorpe. It’s often a complex mix of longitudinal experiences (life’s timeline) leading to psychological vulnerability, genetic / hereditary factors and current environmental / relational factors that all play a role in an episode developing. One theory suggests that dips are inevitable for some but the key is catching it before it drops with appropriate treatment / self coping strategies for improved long term management. Psycho-vegetative is a strange term huh! Sounds a bit old school unpleasant medical terminology
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on June 29, 2018, 08:08:12 pm
It does sound like the sort of thing they'd prescribe trepanning or leeches for! But I think it captures the mind-caused ridiculousness of the situation well.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Downclimber on July 05, 2018, 09:40:28 am
Firstly, Herbert, I, like many others, want to send love and good wishes. I hope that you still have some light. I can't say I know what you're going through but I can say that we care.

Seocondly,

I get what you’re saying, but I can’t seem to make “therapy” work.
So I live on Fluoxetine.

OMM, have you ever read "Voluntary madness"? https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0031RS8X0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 . I thought it was really good - she's American so very different experience of mental health "treatments" but although she learns a lot about the way she thinks, over the course of the book, fluoxetine plays a significant role.

Like many, hers is not a simple case of "recovery", and I found the book fascinating. Slightly amusingly, in hindsight, I stole my copy from a bookshelf in a psych ward ( :ninja: I promise I don't normally steal) but it's actually quite light reading for something on such a heavy topic and I don't think the reader is expected to come to a pre-meditated conclusion.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on July 12, 2018, 12:18:23 pm
Have been meaning to mention this for a little while. Recently finished reading The Inflamed Mind: https://shortbooks.co.uk/book/the-inflamed-mind

I got it because I'm interested in the link between nutrition and inflammation.
The author doesn't actually make any mention of nutrition - probably because the science isn't there? - but it's a fascinating story of the failure of modern science in understanding the causes of depression and other mental illness; written by someone who's been involved both in diagnosing mental illness (and prescribing SSRI's) as well as working at the heart of developing SSRI's (for GSK); but who readily admits the link between low serotonin and depression is flaky, and there's no marker to prove it.

The breaking down of the philosophical division between body and mind is brilliantly explained, and it goes on to describe how the mechanism works where bodily inflammatory markers can cross over into the brain and hence go on to produce mental illness symptoms.

Recommend anyone suffering depressive symptoms reads it. Maybe you'll reconsider mental symptoms in the light of times in life when you've suffered acute or chronic bodily inflammation.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on July 16, 2018, 10:26:56 pm
Will give that a try.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on July 17, 2018, 07:33:23 am
Thanks for sharing that Pete.  There was a Grauniad article over the weekend covering similar ground - it will be good to see more research being conducted.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on July 19, 2018, 10:47:51 am
Interesting.
Anyone beat me to a non-paywalled version, post it up please!
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2680311 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2680311)

Shit the bed! I beat myself (Phnar, phnar)...

https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2018-gordon.pdf (https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2018-gordon.pdf)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on July 26, 2018, 02:15:46 am
Possibly off current topic, if not thread.

I want to try to emphasise the difference between distress and psychological "ill health".

I'm worried that too much emphasis on “mental health" makes it (distress) a "thing", something that can be pointed at and labeled, but not felt.

It's the capacity to feel, empathise and share distress too, which allows us to connect and be with, in a way that diagnoses and names separate.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: mrjonathanr on July 26, 2018, 11:25:19 am
Categorisation can create distance- good observation Dave.

I think distress in distressing situations in a sign of normal adjustment. It’s when that distress is not a reasonable response to the external environment, or it is but is severe enough that someone can no longer cope, that I’d be thinking in terms of mental ill health.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on August 10, 2018, 11:17:35 pm
I'm struggling. Sorry.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on August 11, 2018, 12:35:49 pm
Hi Andy.

Just sent you a pm.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on August 12, 2018, 05:13:15 pm
Hi Folks.

Anyone been in touch with Andy?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 12, 2018, 06:27:12 pm
Hi Folks.

Anyone been in touch with Andy?
No, but he logged into the forum at 8 am this morning.

Andy, pretty sure you could PM any of us and we’d do anything we could.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on August 12, 2018, 07:40:36 pm
Hi folks, thanks for the concerns. I was 'having a moment' and just needed to shout out rather than bottle it up. Dave, sorry I didn't reply to the PM, only saw it late last night and was out climbing early this morning. Which was good and helped (as it always does).
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on August 13, 2018, 02:07:38 am
Great to hear from you Andy!

 :thumbsup:

Anytime, btw.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on August 13, 2018, 09:48:05 am
Keep with it Andy.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on August 13, 2018, 09:51:34 am
Well done for getting out at all, glad it helped.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on August 13, 2018, 06:18:19 pm
Have been meaning to mention this for a little while. Recently finished reading The Inflamed Mind: https://shortbooks.co.uk/book/the-inflamed-mind

Hey dude. I read the book. Fairly interesting despite somewhat repetitively hammering the point home. It is a sensible logical argument though. Interesting that the very existence of SSRIs self-defeats Cartesian duality.

Quote
The author doesn't actually make any mention of nutrition - probably because the science isn't there?

It was interesting discussing this with my partner in illness Lynne - she is very adamant about the importance of diet and lifestyle over medication. The vague conclusion / what now at the end of the book is very roughly "inflammation -> depression makes sense; anti-inflammatory medication should benefit depression, need to get anti-inflammatory medicine to be profitable in anti-depression terms, get more money into it, more testing, more refining, big pharma involved etc". Lynne's quote was "no no fucking no, avoid reliance on drugs, it should all be about nutrition". She may have a point although no doubt there is room for both.

There is a lot of information about anti-inflammatory foods although I'm not sure how much hard science is on the go.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on August 13, 2018, 06:55:14 pm
Do you think the benefits of diet and exercise on mental health are (aside from physical benefits + endomorphine releases etc..) also that it empowers you - it provides you with with some form of control? Whether or not it actually helps - it makes you feel that you are controlling your physical state and mind? As opposed to medication that is (often) beyond your control?

(Please - I’m way out of my depth here - so if this is blatant crap please ignore me.. and you is you as in one etc..)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on August 13, 2018, 06:58:39 pm
Personally, no.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on August 14, 2018, 12:02:40 am
Do you think the benefits of diet and exercise on mental health are (aside from physical benefits + endomorphine releases etc..) also that it empowers you - it provides you with with some form of control? Whether or not it actually helps - it makes you feel that you are controlling your physical state and mind? As opposed to medication that is (often) beyond your control?

(Please - I’m way out of my depth here - so if this is blatant crap please ignore me.. and you is you as in one etc..)

TT, it's something I've used in that way a lot; the sense of something coming from within, rather than prescribed/external.

For me, it helps offset many things, provides a focus, and emphasises action.

I'm a firm believer that mental health is something that we do, rather than "have" - though life situations can make this really difficult, or present us with challenges that feel really scary.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 14, 2018, 01:07:59 am
Do you think the benefits of diet and exercise on mental health are (aside from physical benefits + endomorphine releases etc..) also that it empowers you - it provides you with with some form of control? Whether or not it actually helps - it makes you feel that you are controlling your physical state and mind? As opposed to medication that is (often) beyond your control?

(Please - I’m way out of my depth here - so if this is blatant crap please ignore me.. and you is you as in one etc..)
I think I use exercise exactly like that. Particularly climbing, diving and tabbing/yomping.
Usually, alone.

Edit:
Being on drugs bothers me not a Jot.
Just another tool in my box of tricks. Always figured the stigma is just white noise from the ignorant.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tommytwotone on August 14, 2018, 12:03:45 pm
Do you think the benefits of diet and exercise on mental health are (aside from physical benefits + endomorphine releases etc..) also that it empowers you - it provides you with with some form of control? Whether or not it actually helps - it makes you feel that you are controlling your physical state and mind? As opposed to medication that is (often) beyond your control?

(Please - I’m way out of my depth here - so if this is blatant crap please ignore me.. and you is you as in one etc..)

TT, it's something I've used in that way a lot; the sense of something coming from within, rather than prescribed/external.

For me, it helps offset many things, provides a focus, and emphasises action.


Forgive the poorly remembered BSc Psychology fooder here but...

As well as any neurochemical benefit (of which I think there definitely is) the other element to this could be that exercise provides a good way of regaining a feeling of self-mastery over one's life / situation - as the lack of it (or perceived lack of it) has been found to be a contributing factor in depression.

In that respect, I've found climbing a double-edged sword. A good session can definitely improve my general outlook, but a bad / frustrating session can leave me more down than when I started.

For me, that's where something more mechanical - be it running, gym cardio, chucking weights about - is more effective, as I just have to turn up and do the work.




Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on August 15, 2018, 01:05:59 am
Andy, are you still with the current thread?

I've generally found classic trad a wholesome experience, and always when shared with a good friend.


TTT:

'In that respect, I've found climbing a double-edged sword. A good session can definitely improve my general outlook, but a bad / frustrating session can leave me more down than when I started."

In that way, I hear you! But just being at the crag is something I've found particularly therapeutic.

I've found that moving the emphasis from outcome to application has helped. Application is something I can always work on improving. As I get older it means I rest more too.

TTTT..  ;D
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 15, 2018, 07:40:46 am
Actually, this “bad day at the crag” aspect, is why I prefer solo missions on such occasions.
Obviously, it’s a Bouldering or light soloing session (for me, anyway), but without an audience, I’m never doing anything except working a problem, nothing is ever an “attempt” unless you actually finish it. If you feel shit, you just go off and finish easy things. If you want to take an hour out, lie on your mat, read a book and drink coffee, no one’s going to moan. If you climb for ten minutes, decide you really can’t be arsed and go for a run instead, no one gets their panties in a wad.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on August 15, 2018, 08:24:40 am
Actually, this “bad day at the crag” aspect, is why I prefer solo missions on such occasions.
Obviously, it’s a Bouldering or light soloing session (for me, anyway), but without an audience, I’m never doing anything except working a problem, nothing is ever an “attempt” unless you actually finish it. If you feel shit, you just go off and finish easy things. If you want to take an hour out, lie on your mat, read a book and drink coffee, no one’s going to moan. If you climb for ten minutes, decide you really can’t be arsed and go for a run instead, no one gets their panties in a wad.

This.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tommytwotone on August 15, 2018, 10:49:59 am

I've generally found classic trad a wholesome experience, and always when shared with a good friend.


Yeah, same here - but at my current time of life / with family commitments it's hard enough to get out, let alone sort partners etc. I did enjoy a therapeutic evening soloing at Burbage recently.


I've found that moving the emphasis from outcome to application has helped. Application is something I can always work on improving. As I get older it means I rest more too.


+1 to that - thought I'm finding it easier said that done at the moment.

In my head I'm still the early 30s / non-parent version of myself that could train loads, get strong and climb 7a+, when in reality I'm lucky to scratch up at 6a+ nowadays.




Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: cheque on August 15, 2018, 11:59:54 am
But just being at the crag is something I've found particularly therapeutic.

Me too. I used to get frustrated at myself for being so easily distracted from my performance but if my only interest in climbing was how good I am at it then I don’t know how well I’d be dealing with the recovery from my injury.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Johnny Brown on August 15, 2018, 03:59:03 pm
Quote
Do you think the benefits of diet and exercise on mental health are...

My working theory has always been that depression is a symptom of living in a society which is wholly artificial and is largely estranged from the natural environment we and the rest of the animal kingdom evolved in. Broadly, the more time you can spend doing more natural things in a more natural setting the better, and vice versa the worse.

Climbing adds to that aspects of danger and required concentration that forcibly break negative thought patterns very reliably in my experience. Those times spent lying on my mat I often muse on how much 'work' primitive life would have required - remarks on expansive leisure time are very common in anthropological reports. In fact I find it quite hard to even imagine the freedom afforded by the twin birthrights of land access and survival knowledge that every animal in history had until we cashed ours in for the agricultural revolution.

I also think some key aspects of climbing culture are an expression of latent traits that evolved during the part (99%) of our history we spent as intelligent hunter gatherers. Acts like retracing ceremonial pathways laid down by larger-than-life ancestors are fairly universal in primitive societies, and often include real but 'unnecessary' challenges, particularly for initiations etc. This is probably all far from your mind when topping out on The Sloth, but the parallels seem pretty clear to me and may be a part of why some routes give such lasting satisfaction.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on August 15, 2018, 04:50:28 pm
Interesting Johnny B.

Not to mention the release of oxytocin / seratonin / dopamine / adrenaline from not just being outdoors, but also doing something energetic which is release trigger (not necessarily climbing - could be cycling, running, skiing, walking, even playing golf).

These can be released alone, but I think are further enhanced if done socially; oxytocin is the "hug drug" which I think is why grown men will happily give each other a good old cuddle after achieving something (scary route, hole in one) that they would not normally do in another context.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: rich d on August 16, 2018, 12:18:08 pm
I don't have too much to add to this really but came across these 2 bits on a skiing forum which seemed kind of relevant to us as we all play in the outdoors. First is about the (2 years old) increasing suicide rates in the rockies.

https://www.newschoolers.com/news/read/Unbuckling-suicide-belt

2nd one is a very honest post from a skier who was on the brink of US Olympic freestyle/bigAir selection but missed it by half a point.
 
https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/857340/The-truth-behind-my-complete-destruction-

"What’s good NS!?

You may or may not have noticed but I completely Houdini’d shortly after future spinning... and I may have actually believed I was in the future!

Here is what happened at the end of my career (so far ;) ) that led to losing everything.

I think some of you can benefit from this...

— This post is explicit and VERY deep —

None of this is easy to write.

Up until now, I could count on one hand the people that know this.

This is real. I’m not the only person going through these things. I want to share to expand knowledge and give an inside perspective.

Please keep in mind... I am NEVER trying to tell anyone what to do. That shit is on you 😉
Also... I absolutely do not have everything figured out. I am trying to organize my thoughts and learn.
I am not looking for attention.
I figure it would be helpful to share...

One of the BIGGEST keys to getting by day to day life for me is reminding myself that the world is exactly what I make it. If I live in a negative thought dominant world, then everything around me seems negative and if I don’t catch myself in these thoughts... then that negativity will continuously grow and eventually at an exponential rate.
A lot of negative things happened. I blamed myself.
Next thing you know I was back to being cold. The pain of my ill perceived world became overwhelming... and I turned evil. I mean fucking evil. I go to absurd lengths to try and hurt myself and also horribly hurting others... and I didn’t even realize it.
When I reached that level of numb, I block out so many positive emotions that I become cold. I was exhausted and stuck in a dark world only seeing and feeling heart demolishing negativity and only identifying the world around me with that negativity, which lead to heavy heavy depression and savage anger that seemingly could only be escaped with drugs. Drugs take away the pain. Drugs also falsely identify as love, happiness, friendship... everything good that I would not, could not, see or feel before.

Eventually I found solace at the homeless shelter in $10 bags of “life” for the majority of every day. Alone I would float, mindless, content, focused... on drugs. The rest of my day I spent relentlessly searching everywhere, mostly in or around dumpsters, for something to turn for profit, which would turn into drugs.
Needing drugs to cope with my emptiness/emotional void = selling everything to my name. Eventually breaking into cars, stealing things that I did not earn, and I did not deserve. In my broken mind I deserved it.
I AM NOT a thief. I am so fucking heartbroken by the fact that I had become the person that people fear. A person who disregarded morals. I’m not saying people are scared of me... but knowing what I was able to do without feeling... is the scariest thing of all.

My excuse for doing all of these fucked up drugs... “it’s ok- it’s just for fun” “I’m not addicted, I can stop whenever!”
Eventually these thoughts subsided and I simply needed drugs to cope... and barely cope at that.
I 100% believed that I could only exist at the capacity at which I had accepted the world wanted of me if I was so high I basically did not exist.
I believed that I was the most horrible person on earth. I couldn’t understand why the world was so evil and relentless.

I believed the world wanted me gone.
I wanted myself gone.
My sadness and self hatred eventually took control of me and I threw in the towel.
I was under the influence of drugs, alcohol, and depression one night, remembering very emotionally destroying occurrences (One very prominent example is missing the Olympics by less than half of a point, others were much more personal) I jumped off a cliff ranging somewhere between 80-100ish feet high. Not on skis. Not into snow.

I died on impact.

I saw so many people whom I missed and idolized. I wanted to be with them. They told me I had not served my purpose on earth. I started screaming and begging them to let me stay...
I came to on a beach. I was alone. It was 3am. I crawled and limped about 1/4-1/2 mile down the shore to find any street possible and called myself an ambulance.
I found myself in the ICU with brain bleeding and punctured bleeding lungs.
I was supposed to be in the hospital for a long time... and I was 100% convinced that it wouldn’t take that long.
I was right.
Less than a week after admittance, I was released and cleared by a doctor.

This was a miracle.

And it wasn’t enough.

A few months later on an absolutely beautiful sunny day just before Christmas, with a fresh blanket of snow coating the ground, I was toggling with the pressure I was applying to the trigger of a gun which was resting against my temple.
The scary thing is... I wasn’t scared.
I started to apply more consistent and heavy pressure to the cold metal piece as continued playing the horrible things in my head over and over. Finally I could put these thoughts to rest and do the world and myself a favor.
The trigger grew closer to the grip as my grip tightened. I closed my eyes...
My dad called.
He called with news that someone very very close to me had just lost their mother, who happened to be like a second mom to me, by taking her own life.
I immediately turned my truck around and drove home. I had a breakdown. Just like other times, I blamed myself.

Built up sadness from so many horrible experiences along with anger, hatred, and loneliness strengthened my drug use to a deadly level.

Recipe for survival:

Heroin, crack, Xanax... everyday. I mean EVERY day. (1-3g heroin (BLK-Black) or 60-500mg OxyContin), 0.5-3.0g of white (crack) 2-10mg Xanax (bars, busses, etc)
A SHIT load.
Hundreds of dollars a day.
Meth, alcohol, coke, Molly, thizz (ecstasy), sassafras, OxyContin, morphine, oxymorphone, weed... etc... on occasion... definitely more than occasional— meaning not reliant on, but would use if in the presence of, or absence of other drugs and also would use additionally to the primary drugs.
Nothing... not even those drugs, could numb the absolute hatred within.

The truth behind the drug abuse? I wasn’t just physically addicted. I was IN LOVE. I absolutely loved the freedom I got from my emotions with these “supplements” (I consider drugs a supplement for lost emotions...) (I am just figuring this out as i write!) Basically, I affiliated drugs with happiness and love— the only happiness and love I could ever feel with the sad lonely darkness ravaging my perception of this fucking BEAUTIFUL life that I am so damn blessed to have the opportunity to live and fuckin dominate!

I have finally taken the time to deal with my forgotten emotions and focus on the good things as well now.
I am happy to be alive.

I hope any of this helps.
The world that some people are in is not the same as your world... and reminding them of that doesn’t help.
Remind people you love them. Tell them the good things. We need to hear it.

So, there’s a little insight as to why I haven’t been around.

I plan to be back.

Keep shredding and keep lovin!"
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on August 16, 2018, 01:42:19 pm
Quote
Do you think the benefits of diet and exercise on mental health are...

My working theory has always been that depression is a symptom of living in a society which is wholly artificial and is largely estranged from the natural environment we and the rest of the animal kingdom evolved in.

I haven't even read the rest of the post but this is a good thought and runs parallel to a thought I have, that depression (and mental illness) is, despite potential credibility issues, very real and increasingly prevalent in modern society due to pretty much what you said, or more specifically that we are monkeys whose brains, intellect, technological capabilities and societal formations have evolved far quicker than our emotional abilities to deal with them and make sense of that pace of development.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on August 16, 2018, 11:05:54 pm
Apes, together, strong

[fists together]
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 13, 2018, 07:56:23 am
So...
I’m back on the drugs...
My dealer (GP) didn’t even pause when I asked for my Fluoxetine to be renewed.

Now, and this is serious, does anyone have any experience of dealing with someone with very real psychiatric issues?

Particularly where that person has decided to fixate on you (or at least, looks likely to). It turns out that this person has feudes with many other people and organisations (interesting, expletive filled, YouTube videos, Facebook pages (with 23 likes), endless threats of legal action and even attempted suits (failed))?

I know (now) this person is known to Health services, they’re trying to sue them too, does this mean they have a Case Officer? Any possibility of contacting someone there, who might be able to reign them in?

Just any advice on handling such people would be welcome, and I mean, even just trying to talk to them.


Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on September 13, 2018, 09:14:33 am
Matt
Just because a person is known to mental health service or has even received a service in their past does not necessarily they have a key worker.
They may choose not receive a service and unless they have a presentation which would require detention under the mental health act services will respect that choice.
However if a person has a presentation of a severity that would indicate treatment services may persist in trying to engage with them.
Also if a person has been detained under section 3 of MHA ( There are some other sections 35 or 37 which are similar but are related to Forensic mental health services) they can be placed on a community treatment order which they are required to accept treatment, visits and reviews with a psychiatrist. If they don’t comply they can be recalled to hospital.
If you try to find out whether or not they have a worker, you will probably hit confidentiality where no one will give you any information.
Probably the best you could do is contact the mental health team for the area in which they live and pass on your concerns or speak to the local police as they are likely to have knowledge of this person.
I hope this sort of makes sense.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on September 14, 2018, 05:02:43 pm

Just any advice on handling such people would be welcome, and I mean, even just trying to talk to them.

Matt, I can completely understand why that might sound like a great idea, but I'd suggest it might be best avoided.

Despite your very best intentions, how things are conveyed may be rather different.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 14, 2018, 07:02:25 pm
Thanks guys.

Unfortunately, we’re almost certainly going down the lawyer route and bringing in better qualified people to handle the situation.

Which is just going to cost everyone a packet for no good reason...

Absolutely fucked right off with life right now, with bells on.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on September 17, 2018, 09:43:55 am
It sounds like a very difficult situation Matt, but something you probably do need to be covered for, or protected against.

Keep up the great work, and please keep reminding yourself of the value of what you're doing for everyone else!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: JamieG on September 18, 2018, 03:01:38 pm
Along the lines that Johnny B was mentioning. Here is a review article which finds that potentially many features of modern life may contribute to depression. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330161/

However, in my personal experience I have found medicine necessarily to allow me to get out and exercise/socialise/work, which then leads to a greater improvement in my health. It is a double whammy.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 18, 2018, 08:29:47 pm
I honestly find modern life a great struggle.

I think I spent a lot of my life running away. I thought I was traveling and leading a dynamic and exciting life. Always onwards, on to the next adventure, lusting after the next challenge.

Then came kids.

That meant settling down.

And over the last decade, I have realised how often I just ditched my entire life, when it got too complicated to be fun anymore. I no longer have that option.

It sucks.

Life here is petty, repetitive and utterly beyond your control. If you’re an expat and don’t like the local Government? Leave.
At home?
Suck it up.

Oh and the fun with our friendly Psyco began in earnest today. Ten minutes before I opened the Bunker, the Firebrigade are banging on the door.
Someone has reported x,y and z, breaches of the fire safety regs in this business (including locked and permanently blocked fire exits), serious enough that they had to be on premises within ten minutes of recieving the complaint...

No faults found.

None.

Fortunately, we were able to suggest a possible name of the person making the complaint, which the guys were unable to confirm as the claimant for obvious reasons...
But, apparently, they do prosecute people who make malicious complaints, should they be silly enough to use their own name.

Which is nice.

Staff member had his motorbike mysteriously moved to another street, from where he parked it...

Just waiting for the first Pizza delivery now...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on September 18, 2018, 08:36:34 pm
Once upon a time when I had a caseload of folk like you describe Matt. One such gentleman on walking down a dark street was suddenly grabbed from behind and bundled in to the boot of a car driven 50 miles away let out and then had to get himself back home.
He behaved himself for a good while after that.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: danm on September 19, 2018, 01:39:43 pm
Sorry to hear about the grief and aggro Matt. With any luck this person will get the treatment/comeuppance they need/deserve. Sounds like they already messed up by getting their name on record with the fire brigade, if they do get a stern word from them that might back them up a little, and if not it is something that hopefully you will be able to use as evidence if it comes to t. Best of luck mate.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 10, 2018, 09:34:43 pm
Hope the dog is getting used to taking walks by himself and leaving everyone alone.

This may be of use to some folk - useful pdf on mental health and debt

https://images6.moneysavingexpert.com/images/documents/mentalhealthguide_new_October_2018.pdf?_ga=2.67977107.327842280.1539203536-374984246.1537267173

from

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/mental-health-guide/

nicely put together
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on October 11, 2018, 10:09:34 am
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/27/health/staying-well-rock-climbing/index.html

Nice read.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: cjsheps on October 11, 2018, 10:50:57 pm
It always comes back to climbing, right?  :wall:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 28, 2018, 12:18:57 pm
Hi everyone.

I thought I'd make people aware of something that I'm pretty sure I experienced when taking anti depressants back in the early 00s.

Akathisia:

https://youtu.be/qH9PUnPjqEM

This was an endless internal agitation that I couldn't escape from. It's the one time in my life when I actually drank to find some respite.

I'll be dropping the doctor I saw at the time a note to ask about this, but it's one of the principle reasons I've preferred to live with the rollercoaster of emotions at times, rather than resort to anti depressants.

At the time, I was desperate for a way out. I did wake up covered in vomit on one occasion, having taken too much Zopiclone. Not good.

The account given here is so close to what I felt at the time, I'll be very surprised if that isn't what I was experiencing.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on November 04, 2018, 09:29:04 am
Hi everyone.

I thought I'd make people aware of something that I'm pretty sure I experienced when taking anti depressants back in the early 00s.

Akathisia:

https://youtu.be/qH9PUnPjqEM

This was an endless internal agitation that I couldn't escape from. It's the one time in my life when I actually drank to find some respite.

I'll be dropping the doctor I saw at the time a note to ask about this, but it's one of the principle reasons I've preferred to live with the rollercoaster of emotions at times, rather than resort to anti depressants.

At the time, I was desperate for a way out. I did wake up covered in vomit on one occasion, having taken too much Zopiclone. Not good.

The account given here is so close to what I felt at the time, I'll be very surprised if that isn't what I was experiencing.

Dave.

I'm not watching the video because I'm fairly sure it'd be too close to home for me -- I got bad akathisia as a medication reaction once and yeah, it's a fucking horror. You want to claw your own skin off to escape. It doesn't surprise me at all if it leads to suicides, and doctors really need to be aware of it and take people off a med immediately if it starts.

(That was part of an episode I refer to as my Epic Psychiatric Misadventures, during which my doctors and I discovered that I'm really prone to freakishly awful meds reactions.)

As a data point, though: getting akathisia from one anti-depressant doesn't mean you'll get it from others.

I do need anti-depressants to keep me from plummeting into very severe depression, and mercifully the Misadventures ended up with me on a cocktail of meds which are pretty good to me, with minimal side-effects.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 09, 2018, 05:14:23 pm
I wanted to share this video, not for any immediate reason, other than for the urgency which should always surround this. I think this is amazing in it's openness and frankness:

https://youtu.be/CRyGhQJzFNg
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: nik at work on January 23, 2019, 07:47:08 pm
I've lurked on this thread for a while but think the time has come to contribute.
I have over the last 12-18 months had a fairly dark spell which came to a head at the start of this year. The reasons for this are numerous and complex and I'll not go into them here. However this thread, along with other factors, helped me to open up to my wife in a way I didn't think I could.  At this stage I don't feel the need to look for further help, although I am aware it is available. I am definitely coming out of the hole, in ups and downs, so just wanted to extend a big thank you to all who have contributed here, it has made a difference to me.
Thanks.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on January 23, 2019, 08:47:28 pm
Big up nik.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 23, 2019, 08:50:41 pm
nice one Nik

 :hug:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on January 23, 2019, 09:30:38 pm
Well done Nik. You've made the hardest step, keep making the rest  :punk:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on January 23, 2019, 11:37:05 pm
 :thumbsup:

Echo the above really.   The first steps are always the hardest and sounds like you're a few steps in now.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on January 25, 2019, 11:35:45 pm
I'm injured. He's barking in the distance. He won't prevail.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy P on January 26, 2019, 02:26:44 am
To all but specifically Andy F regarding 'hearing him barking in the distance'.

I guess forewarned is forearmed? The little b*strd bit me two weeks ago totally without warning resulting in nine days bed rest with seven sleepless days & nights. My wonderful employers paid me in full and on my return to work rather than a scolding I had a massive hug and a "welcome back And" from both of them.

Two days later [two days ago now] I had an early fork lift booked for our steel delivery to one of my construction sites but was kept waiting for almost two hours. This brought on anxiety and a brief panic attack. Having finally been unloaded I had two choices: Go home, hit the booze & try to sleep or keep fighting the fight. I chose the latter, swung past our office, grabbed some active tender files and drove home to work remotely. Three hours later I'd been awarded The Biggest Single tender I've Ever won [in 28yrs here] followed immediately by another Very Healthy one. Personally, my biggest day ever and four times the biggest our company's ever had. So the abject misery of the morning went to pure elation in about seven hours though it did leave me emotionally drained. Employer absolutely stoked and gave me the next day off on full pay. Then reality hit with that 'oh f*ck, I've got to do it now' feeling so the anxiety's right back and red-lining and due these two significant, successful awards I've gone and tripled the extreme pressure I'm already under managing sixteen live construction sites with 16 site managers, 16 forepersons, 16 architects, 16 engineers, dozens of other consultants, fabricators, suppliers, labour force Etc Etc it never ends!

Sorry for the lengthy post and lets all try to 'Be The Best We Can Be' and not let the bstrds grind us down.
Cheers,
Andy.




Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 26, 2019, 08:18:07 am
16 architects

*shudder*



Nice one Mr P - embrace the workload (and maybe hug an architect, just to see what happens)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy P on January 26, 2019, 02:42:30 pm
Ta Lagers, I follow your posts stood on me 'ed here in Upsidedownland, you're very entertaining.

For sure, when 'in the mode' I thrive but hugging architects is a big call coz most of them these days are extremely attractive females and mostly half my age too [bites fingers]. Oh to be young again.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on January 26, 2019, 02:50:54 pm
Nik, Andy F and Andy P - sending positive thoughts your way. 
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: nik at work on January 27, 2019, 08:49:04 am
Thanks guys  :2thumbsup:
Andy and Andy and anyone else struggling, keep on keeping on.
I think for me the big take home from this thread was that, even if it isn't explicitly expressed, there is a broad and deep support network around all of us. Both on here and in the wider world. If help is needed it can be found.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on January 28, 2019, 02:08:33 pm
I'm injured. He's barking in the distance. He won't prevail.

Find a different outlet? Many ways to skin a dog.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on January 28, 2019, 06:13:59 pm
Unfortunately the injuries (hand and now back) limit what I can do. But this helps.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on January 29, 2019, 02:24:07 pm
Learn to play the flute? Learn French? All I'm saying is, do something, just don't get back to wallowing in a pit, I know how easy it is to do.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: duncan on February 05, 2019, 07:38:58 am
Changing diet improves (sub-clinical, mostly) depression (https://journals.lww.com/psychosomaticmedicine/Abstract/publishahead/The_effects_of_dietary_improvement_on_symptoms_of.98656.aspx). Most interventions were Mediterranean type diet: more fruit, veg., oily fish, nuts; less processed meat, sugar. Interestingly, no improvemets in  anxiety which is sometimes thought to be the opposite side of the same coin.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on February 05, 2019, 03:42:21 pm
As a data point in case it's of use to anyone else:

I do get a lot of use out of my lightbox (on top of the meds cocktail and the B-vitamins; my brain's a high-maintenance fucker).

The thing with lightboxes is that they're not the same as full-spectrum lightbulbs or dawn lamps, and you have to look out for the magic specs of 10,000 lux at a distance which it's plausible to have your eyes at, e.g. 30cm (there are some cheaper lightboxes which advertise 10,000 lux but if you read the fine print that's at 5cm, which is very little use unless you fancy spending half an hour every day with a lightbox 5 cm from your eyes).

But there's decent research supporting their usefulness for all depression, not just the seasonal kind.

Though like all antidepressants, if you're bipolar they can send you manic, which is to be avoided.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: seankenny on February 05, 2019, 04:18:56 pm
As a data point in case it's of use to anyone else:

I do get a lot of use out of my lightbox (on top of the meds cocktail and the B-vitamins; my brain's a high-maintenance fucker).

A second data point - I find mine very useful in combating winter blues. Well worth getting one.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on February 05, 2019, 04:49:13 pm
Forgot to add -- for anyone who wants to get seriously geeky about this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chronotherapeutics-Affective-Disorders-Clinicians-Therapy/dp/3318020907
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on March 06, 2019, 04:41:32 pm
Research on nutrition and depression. A recent study found no link. (I'm surprised).

https://www.inverse.com/article/53821-nutritional-psychiatry-supplements-depression?link_uid=7&utm_campaign=inverse-daily-2019-03-06&utm_medium=inverse&utm_source=newsletter
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 06, 2019, 05:43:55 pm
Research on nutrition and depression. A recent study found no link. (I'm surprised).

https://www.inverse.com/article/53821-nutritional-psychiatry-supplements-depression?link_uid=7&utm_campaign=inverse-daily-2019-03-06&utm_medium=inverse&utm_source=newsletter

I don’t think that ship has sailed yet:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ab.21769 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ab.21769)
Edit:
Sorry, not enough info, was it.

The study shows an improvement in behaviour of children given the Omega 3 supplement, but concentrates on non-supplemented care givers of those children; where a significant reduction in inter-parent conflict was noted.

But, to me, the significant implication is the Omega 3 effect upon the child behaviour. As mentioned here:
https://bigthink.com/stephen-johnson/want-your-kids-to-behave-give-them-omega-3-supplements-study-suggests?facebook=1&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1551769072 (https://bigthink.com/stephen-johnson/want-your-kids-to-behave-give-them-omega-3-supplements-study-suggests?facebook=1&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1551769072)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 06, 2019, 05:58:48 pm
Also, the study you linked to, Pete, was only carried out on Obese subjects, and I wonder what else was going on in those subjects, that might skew the results, as opposed to the same study in the general population.

It’s like training for one-armers on the bottom slot of a BM2000; it introduces an extraneous limiting factor.

As does the study, using only children, of course.

My point being, it’s still in the air...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on March 06, 2019, 06:19:14 pm
Why I said I was surprised.

I've long been interested in the theory that some foods are inflammatory. Plenty of evidence.

And the theories that inflammation in the body can cross the blood/brain barrier; and that bodily inflammation has been linked with depression and other mental illness - as per Edward Bullmore's recent book on the topic.

Not a great leap therefore to link diet to mental health.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on March 07, 2019, 08:39:08 am

The thing with lightboxes is that they're not the same as full-spectrum lightbulbs or dawn lamps, and you have to look out for the magic specs of 10,000 lux at a distance which it's plausible to have your eyes at, e.g. 30cm (there are some cheaper lightboxes which advertise 10,000 lux but if you read the fine print that's at 5cm, which is very little use unless you fancy spending half an hour every day with a lightbox 5 cm from your eyes).

Any particular one you'd recommend?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on March 07, 2019, 12:24:44 pm
Most (all) illness / disease processes involve inflammation of some kind. I’m sure steroids used to manage this can have a secondary effect of lifting mood, which has been known for a long time. I’m not sure of the mechanism though, wether it’s anti-inflammatory? Depression of course is a very complex multifactorial illness. The question is not whether it’s inflammation due to diet or not, but what treatment(s)might be most beneficial to the individual? And do we take a ‘kitchen sink’ approach to treatment? On a side note someone who is struggling to cope with depression might also struggle to manage their dietary needs and even if they at all the optimum quantities of omega 3 and bananas while avoiding cheese and gluten, they most likely won’t improve without an effective treatment.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on March 07, 2019, 01:44:20 pm
Most (all) illness / disease processes involve inflammation of some kind.

This is bollocks surely? Ignoring the rest.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on March 07, 2019, 01:47:03 pm
https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Inflammation_A_unifying_theory_of_disease
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on March 07, 2019, 02:09:13 pm
I read the first line, I'll highlight the differences to your statement;

Quote
Research is showing that chronic inflammation may be the common factor in many diseases.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on March 07, 2019, 03:24:31 pm
From the common cold and gum disease to cancer and multiple sclerosis and arthritis I can’t think of an illness or disease that doesn’t*  involve an acute or chronic immunologicaly mediated immune response. I’m not sure a thread on depression is the best place for that to be debated? I’d be keen to know if you can let me know of one.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on March 07, 2019, 03:55:20 pm
From the common cold and gum disease to cancer and multiple sclerosis and arthritis I can’t think of an illness or disease that doesn’t*  involve an acute or chronic immunologicaly mediated inflammatory** response. I’m not sure a thread on depression is the best place for that to be debated? I’d be keen to know if you can let me know of one.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on March 07, 2019, 04:25:06 pm
No it's not the right place, and no i can't think of one.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on March 07, 2019, 05:18:47 pm

The thing with lightboxes is that they're not the same as full-spectrum lightbulbs or dawn lamps, and you have to look out for the magic specs of 10,000 lux at a distance which it's plausible to have your eyes at, e.g. 30cm (there are some cheaper lightboxes which advertise 10,000 lux but if you read the fine print that's at 5cm, which is very little use unless you fancy spending half an hour every day with a lightbox 5 cm from your eyes).

Any particular one you'd recommend?

I've used various different models successfully. The Lumie models have a good reputation -- my current light box is:

https://www.lumie.com/collections/light-therapy-sad/products/desklamp

But as long as you get the magic 10,000 lux at a decent range, you're good.  Beyond that, it's more practicality, like having one that's convenient for the place where you're going to use it -- for example, ones that are on a neck work well for me because then I can have the lamp just above my laptop screen and check my e-mail and pootle around on the internet during my ligbtbox stint in the morning. I also find it quite handy being able to use it as a task light when doing fiddly shit like sewing.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on May 03, 2019, 10:27:36 am
https://www.wavelengthmag.com/2000-world-champ-sunny-garcia-intensive-care-suicide-attempt/?goal=0_25a9ca0d9d-a3026ac932-133807721&mc_cid=a3026ac932&mc_eid=a24970269f

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48135091

No matter how charmed a life appears from the outside, everyone has their struggles.

I'm halfway through reading this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reasons-Stay-Alive-Matt-Haig/dp/1782116826/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=reasons+to+stay+alive&qid=1556875508&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Recommend it to anyone who struggles with, or knows anyone who is struggling with depression. Insightful and positive. I'm happy to post it on to anyone who would like to read it once I'm done.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on May 03, 2019, 11:03:35 am
Thanks for sharing Chris, as it says in the fantastic WHO video

“The Black Dog is an equal opportunity mongrel”

I know my other posts on here are often pretty daft, annoying etc. But Mental Health is something I’m very passionate about.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: user deactivated on May 03, 2019, 11:04:50 am
https://youtu.be/XiCrniLQGYc
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on May 03, 2019, 11:07:47 am
Thanks Dan, that vid was the first post in this thread, so worth revisiting.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on May 15, 2019, 07:03:01 am
It's mental health week.

Huge shout out to anyone who's suffered, is suffering or helping sufferers.

Never give up
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: TobyD on May 15, 2019, 11:08:50 pm
This is a great interview:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2019/05/how-alastair-campbell-confronting-westminster-s-mental-health-crisis
*full disclosure it's by my brother so I would say that, but I think its objectively good  anyway.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on May 16, 2019, 09:02:20 am
Is Alastair Campbell your brother? Kidding, good interview.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on May 16, 2019, 03:44:17 pm
Just a quickie that might be of interest to some people on this thread...

People interested in having their genes tested with a company such as 23andme etc. might like to trawl their raw data for which COMT gene variations they have. Lots of interesting research around the link between the different COMT gene variations and how they affect the body's ability to process stress hormones and neurotransmitters. Also interesting associations between COMT gene variation and ability (or lack of) to focus and concentrate.

DRD2 gene also an interesting one to take a look at - either increases or decreases dopamine signalling depending on which variation.

All useful info for anyone suffering from poor stress response.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on May 17, 2019, 02:55:13 pm
Just a quickie that might be of interest to some people on this thread...

People interested in having their genes tested with a company such as 23andme etc. might like to trawl their raw data for which COMT gene variations they have. Lots of interesting research around the link between the different COMT gene variations and how they affect the body's ability to process stress hormones and neurotransmitters. Also interesting associations between COMT gene variation and ability (or lack of) to focus and concentrate.

DRD2 gene also an interesting one to take a look at - either increases or decreases dopamine signalling depending on which variation.

All useful info for anyone suffering from poor stress response.

Did the COMT stuff give you any pointers re: things you could do that helped? Last time I read up on that, I didn't run into  info about specific stuff that works better or worse depending on those variations, but I don't know what the start of the art is.

(Whereas finding out that I'm compound heterozygous for MTHFR and adding a super low dose of methylfolate to my meds cocktail has been super-useful for me.)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on May 17, 2019, 04:12:57 pm
So I'm Val/Val (i.e. G/G) for the COMT rs4680 variant, so supposedly more of the 'warrior' than the 'worrier', i.e. I'm less prone to ruminate over previous failures. I supposedly produce greater amount of the enzyme that breaks down stress hormones, so don't suffer prolonged negative effects of stress as easily as other variants.

So I haven't researched very hard for information on beneficial actions because it doesn't feel like an issue for me.

I'm still reading around the subject however and learning more..

The trade-off is that I'm supposedly not as adept at concentration and focus under normal conditions; but under conditions of stress or new experiences my focus is less impaired than norm. So not great at repetitive tasks or focused study.


I'm like you for MTHFR. Only discovered this year. I'm not looking good in multiple of the MTHFR gene variants: MTHFR, MTHFRD1, MTHRR. All significantly impaired for methylation. I've recently started taking choline (mostly via lecithin and eggs), vit B12, and supplemental creatine. I'm extremely active (in fits and starts) but have had periods of fatigue over the years.. who knows..


BTW for a good site that runs free reports (I guess they get to keep your DNA data, so not 'free') try 'foundmyfitness'. Good for nutrition info too.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: joel182 on May 17, 2019, 04:49:59 pm
The trade-off is that I'm supposedly not as adept at concentration and focus under normal conditions; but under conditions of stress or new experiences my focus is less impaired than norm. So not great at repetitive tasks or focused study.

Very wary of trying to link genotype to broad behavioural profiles. Hard to find quantitative results just flicking through some abstracts linked from snpedia (https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs4680)

What I can find seems to suggest only a small effect:


"In spite of the strong effect of the COMT genotype on enzyme activity, its effects on behavior are moderate, accounting for only 4% of variance in task performance."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16878403?dopt=Abstract


Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on May 17, 2019, 06:15:37 pm
FWIW: the methylfolate was slow to have an effect, but I started noticing changes after several months, and after a year, there's been a very major improvement -- it raises the "floor" under my mood dips, and has seriously improved my executive functioning.

I haven't changed the overall dose of B-vits I'm taking, just switched folate to methyfolate.

I'd already noticed that I need to supplement B-vitamins (but that too high a dose does bad things to my anxiety), which is one reason why I did the whole 23andme thing in the first place -- was curious to see if anything would show up re: MTHFR.

On the other hand, I've seen at least one paper arguing that people with treatment-resistant depression are SO likely to have at least one variant MTHFR SNP that there's little gain in testing, you might as well cut to the chase and give everyone with treatment-resistant depression some methylfolate to augment any other treatments and see if it helps.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on May 18, 2019, 12:44:52 pm
The trade-off is that I'm supposedly not as adept at concentration and focus under normal conditions; but under conditions of stress or new experiences my focus is less impaired than norm. So not great at repetitive tasks or focused study.

Very wary of trying to link genotype to broad behavioural profiles. Hard to find quantitative results just flicking through some abstracts linked from snpedia (https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs4680)

What I can find seems to suggest only a small effect:


"In spite of the strong effect of the COMT genotype on enzyme activity, its effects on behavior are moderate, accounting for only 4% of variance in task performance."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16878403?dopt=Abstract


Completely agree. I thought the subject might be of interest to some on this thread, chiefly those who like to delve into the nuts and bolts of how the body works.
I don't actually go around believing 'I have this SNP, therefore I will have this behaviour' if that's what it came across as. I'm just raising awareness of some theories around the subject, for others to do their own research and see if any of it might be of help to them.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on June 02, 2019, 02:13:03 pm

Fantastic video from Russell Brand:

https://youtu.be/MFY0SuJissI

Re the way "the body works", I find it creates problems for me if I view my body as a separate discrete "bean" - somehow disconnected, in and of itself.

I often try to put myself in difficult situations - often where there isn't the luxury of being able to think about loss of one form or another, where critical engagement is the only option.

Other ways of doing this, are activities where "feeling the balance" is the place you need to occupy - even thinking about that helps, because it's something you can't grasp. (Think slackline or handstands perhaps. Used to be soloing.)

The spiritual values that Russell espouses are all about being part of the world and life around us.

Going back to ideas about "body", I find it helpful to think in terms of "What bodiness/embodiment do I experience connectivity with life/the world around me through?". This isn't about identifying it, or "owning" it, but more experiencing where it's happening.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on June 04, 2019, 09:58:08 am
Good post Dave (though I’ve not watched the video).

Being embodied is a natural way of being and becoming embodied is, in itself a healing process.  Hence the value of exercise, gardening, yoga, climbing, swimming, dance and other gentle ways of coming into the body.

It’s also why ‘mental health’ as a phrase can be counterproductive.



Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on June 04, 2019, 03:59:30 pm
Bloody 48 years old.



And I still sn**gered at “gentle ways of coming into the body”...

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on June 04, 2019, 04:50:24 pm
 :-[  ::) too late to edit now ha!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: nik at work on June 15, 2019, 10:39:28 pm
A dark day.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on June 16, 2019, 08:42:51 am
A dark day.

You ok Nik?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: nik at work on June 16, 2019, 08:52:16 am
I think so, yesterday wasn't great.

Apologies for the rum induced cryptic post last night...
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on June 16, 2019, 09:57:03 am
I think so, yesterday wasn't great.

Apologies for the rum induced cryptic post last night...

Good 👍
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Offwidth on June 17, 2019, 04:28:17 pm
Womans hour today had a really good piece on the chronic underfunding of teenage mental health support. Shocking stuff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000612b
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: duncan on June 24, 2019, 08:09:22 pm
After several years of hinting at this, Dave MacLeod's experience with diet and mental health.

https://youtu.be/UPi41bSrFdI
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on June 24, 2019, 08:56:38 pm
One snoozes, one loses, by a whole 45 minutes....

Quite likely one for PeteJH as "The Inflammed Mind" came to mind just looking at the references.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on March 26, 2020, 10:36:15 pm
Good time to resurrect this, everything must feel like a struggle for many right now. If anyone want to talk please do.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on March 27, 2020, 06:26:44 am
Well done Chris - for posting and jogging.
I've nearly posted up a few times before but always managed to pretty much reel things back from where they were going.

Last week I started getting angry at people - in a fairly irrational way (though anger often isnt rational I guess!) - even more than usual. This culminated in a shouting standoff with someone (badly) parked at the car park near Blackstone in Sat - after I'd just had a very good and theraputic bouldering session (EG should have been at my most chilled). I was probably more 'snarky' on here than usual too - sorry. There was also the cycle of not sleeping then not sleeping because I was not sleeping.

This week I feel much better - the lockdown has reduced alot of the uncertainty of the last couple of weeks. Uncertainty in terms of how work works (for me and MrsTT), how school will (not) work, how shopping and home life will work etc.. even how climbing outside will end for now. I now feel like I have a set of rules and constraints within which I can plan. This has helped me see the positive in alot of things (even HIIT :D ) rather than descend into the spiral of mire that last week was. Sleeping has improved by moving to a different room (has helped MrsTT sleep too) and now 9-5 or whatever it was has disappeared - the daily structure and NEED to get sleep between 10 and 6 has relaxed.

I thought this post when it came from me would be a bit more of an outpouring - but its not left my fingers that way ~ which is probably a positive sign. I'll bet these last few weeks have not been easy for anyone - and hope you are all OK out there.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: sheavi on March 27, 2020, 08:29:26 am
After several years of hinting at this, Dave MacLeod's experience with diet and mental health.

https://youtu.be/UPi41bSrFdI

In August last year I started to suffer with IBS.  This required dietary changes.  The main change was no gluten.  A side effect was improved mood which I noticed dipped again if I ate gluten.  Anyway the improvement has been startling.  It was not something I expected so did a little research.  I know this is only anecdotal but there you go.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6266949/
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Offwidth on March 27, 2020, 11:11:42 am
Well done Chris - for posting and jogging.......I thought this post when it came from me would be a bit more of an outpouring - but its not left my fingers that way ~ which is probably a positive sign. I'll bet these last few weeks have not been easy for anyone - and hope you are all OK out there.

Seconded that. My bipolar pal in Malaysia is saying things are weird but in some ways (maybe being used to controls) he is coping better than he expected. Do to their lockdown he can only jog around his block of flats!  Working from home is OK with him he can stop and start when he wants and support his elderly parents better. Not going out also stops him facing the constant social stigma... as many problems as we have in the UK, things are still a lot worse elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on March 27, 2020, 01:03:30 pm
Stay strong everyone. We're all in this boat together, let's try and focus on the positives.
Spending more time with the family has actually brought us closer (even the 15yo has been exceptionally pleasant!).
A prospective 3 months of fingerboarding and core can only help in the long run.
The weather has been great, so the crags may well be nice and dry when we can get back on them.
Pollution levels have dropped, the sky seems clearer at night.
The NHS is finally getting the recognition it deserves (along with all the other key workers - shop staff, delivery drivers etc).

Look for the silver lining. If all you see is clouds, shout. You will be heard
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: sherlock on March 27, 2020, 03:48:25 pm
I don't often post (indeed don't think ever on this thread) but having suffered on and off for 40 odd years, I'd just like to say you folks are fantastic.
Stay well.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: RobinB on April 17, 2020, 10:48:57 am
Morning - I am currently working with a team on the NHS.UK website (http://www.nhs,uk). We are currently working on a new set of web-pages to allow people with mental health issues to easily access telephone line support. Part of the design philosophy that we work to is that we research and develop new features based on feedback from real users who have experience of the issues we are providing solutions for.
However, because of the current Coronavirus issues, we are struggling to recruit and interact with volunteers via our usual channels.
We are currently looking for volunteers to help with some User research sessions this Monday (20th April). Sessions last about 30 minutes and are done via Microsoft teams (no prior software install needed - access is via a URL link). Any information given or discussions that take place would obviously be confidential and our team of User researchers are very experienced with working with volunteers in these sessions, I am not directly involved in these sessions myself. If you have 30 minutes spare and would like to help out, the link to sign up is as follows:

https://nhsdigital.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_a4uXgzvTpz2Pj2R

If you do sign up but are not contacted, this will be because we have enough volunteers for the day.

If you want any further info, please feel free to PM me.

Cheers

Robin Barker
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on April 17, 2020, 11:44:24 am
Good stuff Robin. I'll see if I can spare some time. Your url in the first line looks a bit crook though, think you've linked wrong.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: RobinB on April 17, 2020, 11:51:47 am
Thanks Chris - you're right - URL is a bit crook - should be:
https://www.nhs.uk/
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: shark on April 17, 2020, 12:29:47 pm
Original link works ok
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on January 16, 2021, 06:54:20 pm
A bump for this important thread. I hope everyone is coping with lockdown/isolation. If you're struggling then say so. Talking always helps and things will get better.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on January 16, 2021, 06:57:30 pm
 :thumbsup:

Been fine of late, but fuck me I'm feeling super pissed off today for no discernable reason.  I have to help my dad log onto a zoom meeting he wants to attend at 7, via a phone call.  Christ, I'd rather poke myself in the eye right now the way I'm feeling.  >:(

Humbug.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on January 16, 2021, 07:00:15 pm
Thanks for bumping Andy.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 16, 2021, 07:17:52 pm
A bump for this important thread. I hope everyone is coping with lockdown/isolation. If you're struggling then say so. Talking always helps and things will get better.

Exactly.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on January 16, 2021, 09:08:24 pm
Given the number of suicides increased during lockdown one, we all need to check on each other. A text, WhatsApp, Messenger, phone call. Whatever it takes. Too many of our community have been taken from us too soon.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on January 16, 2021, 09:26:41 pm
I've a confession to make. Jon Pearson randomly, out of the blue, made friends on Facebook. I accepted of course, having known Jon from years back. I liked some of his posts, but never actively communicated with him. He them took his own life.
It eats at me that I should have reached out. I should have said hello. It might have helped. He might still be here if I'd have done something.
I don't want that to happen to anyone else.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fultonius on January 16, 2021, 09:40:25 pm
I was just reflecting on the "investment" thread, could be seen as a bit crass this year when a lot of people are really struggling financially, and mentally. I've had a shit year, with lots of really low mood and being generally negative. Been doing some coaching and had some counselling, the former seems to have been having the best effect. I think I'm more "stuck in a rut" than actually depressed, but it's certainly borderline. The episode with the crypto gambling was a clear sign things weren't going well.

I guess this year, with no regular interaction it could be easy to miss the signs someone has got withdrawn. One of my girlfriend's friend's committed suicide just before the first lockdown which was hard to deal with, to say the least. In a way, I'm glad she didn't have to deal with lockdown as she would have struggled severely.

Andy - just noticed your last post. Don't beat yourself up, there's always a million things you think you could have done. We missed the signs. My gf got a call from her, very distressed and acting odd (worse than normal, she was a regular depression sufferer). My gf jumped on her bike, went straight round, made her pack a bag and brought her round to ours to stay as long as she wanted. She was very distant, confused and kind of zombie like. The next morning she said to my GF she needed to go and do a few things, gf asked if she wanted her to come but she insisted not.

Later that day we'd not heard anything from her and started to get pretty worried; we discussed if she could be a harm to herself but we felt she was too apathetic to be able to do anything. We tried phoning her many times, went round to her place but couldn't get her. We phoned her GP to see if they could do anything, they said they'd call her but of course that was pointless. We found out that night she'd taken her own life.

If you know anyone who ever suffers from being down, isolation etc., give them a call.

 
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 16, 2021, 10:07:30 pm
I've a confession to make. Jon Pearson randomly, out of the blue, made friends on Facebook. I accepted of course, having known Jon from years back. I liked some of his posts, but never actively communicated with him. He them took his own life.
It eats at me that I should have reached out. I should have said hello. It might have helped. He might still be here if I'd have done something.
I don't want that to happen to anyone else.

I know that feeling, Andy. Sometimes feels like it's the normal way for things to end for people my age. I don't like it.

Can everyone please ask for a chat instead of killing themselves?

If the first person you ask can't chat, ask someone else.

Actually, if possible, don't wait until it gets that bad before you ask for a chat.

Thanks
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Herbert on January 16, 2021, 10:39:14 pm
I think I know that feeling too. Look after yourselves Andy & Fultonius. That’s a good idea L.Starfish, let’s all give talking a go before it gets too hard to try.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on January 16, 2021, 10:58:16 pm
Simple idea. Contact 5 people at random from your contacts. Ask how they're doing. Be nice.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 16, 2021, 11:09:45 pm
Simple idea. Contact 5 people at random from your contacts. Ask how they're doing. Be nice.

That's prompted me to contact a few people. Not at random, but people I haven't spoken to in a while.
Thanks Andy 👍
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on January 18, 2021, 08:42:47 am
This is a good call. 5 people.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on January 18, 2021, 11:15:17 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000n1gh/mortimer-whitehouse-gone-fishing-series-3-episode-6

In case anyone missed this episode, 20 mins in the have a conversation with the doctor about men's health, including mental health. Worth a watch, at least that bit, if not the entire series.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on January 18, 2021, 01:14:18 pm

Love that series.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: bigironhorse on January 20, 2021, 09:42:05 am
Thanks for resurrecting this thread, I have been meaning to post for a while but have kept putting it off.

Around 2-3 years I started to develop obsessive compulsive disorder, I am not sure exactly when as I didn't realise that it was happening at first. Initially I just attributed it to stress in the third year of my PhD but it has continued long after. I had a pretty low ebb around 18 months ago and found myself retracing my steps everywhere I went incase something had happened (like what?) and washing my hands repeatedly incase I'd done it wrong. I managed to get a lot better on my own by October or November last year but still not 100%.

Unfortunately I've got a lot worse again since then. I mainly have a contamination type OCD, I worry about infecting other people with undiagnosed illnesses that I don't realise I have (eg if I cut myself when out bouldering and get blood on a hold I worry that the next person might touch it), or transferring dangerous substances to friends, family, and stangers. Covid has definitely not helped with this but my main problem is with chemicals. At work I am doing research on tissue clearing and microscopy, and this involves using a range of chemicals in a lab environment. I have struggled with this intermittently since I started last year but recently it has become unbearable. I become completely anxious and have to go home and thoroughly 'decontaminate' myself and anything I have touched since being in the lab. I'm pretty gutted that this has happened to me and I'm also pissed off about the major concern it is causing for my girlfriend and family.

I am currently seeing a psychotherapist weekly. At first this was really useful and allowed me to tackle a lot of the smaller problems. The way it works is that you put yourself in a triggering situation and then don't give in to washing your hands or retracing steps etc. Gradually you become less stressed in the situation until the compulsions are no longer necessary. The problem with the lab work is that the stress is absolutley intolerable and I think that is why I am struggling to deal with it.

I have not taken any medication so far but I am definitely considering it now.

Has anyone else on here experienced anything similar? I would love to hear from you if you have as I have not met anyone with similar experiences to this so far.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 20, 2021, 11:15:00 am
Hi! I have some OCD traits as part of my general psychiatric clusterfuck, though not enough to meet the threshold for a separate diagnosis as it's mostly at a level I can keep beaten down (and I'm on SSRIs anyway). Mine's mostly pure-O type stuff, though.

One of my best friends has full-on OCD (leaning more towards checking stuff); she's done well with CBT, has a therapist she goes back to for "top-ups" when it starts flaring up again.

I have not taken any medication so far but I am definitely considering it now.

Yeah, I'm a big advocate of not having any shame over using meds if you need them. They're a valid tool.

Standard caveats: different people react differently to psych meds, can be a bit of a faff finding something that works for you without too many side-effects (or you might hit the right one first try), your mileage may vary, etc.. But SSRIs can be really great for OCD; it's one of the things they do particularly well.

Also, I remember "Brain Lock" by Jeffrey Schwartz as being good (DIY CBT-type stuff with a framework I found useful), but I've not reread it in ages.

By way of solidarity, here's Rachel Bloom doing a stand-up routine about her experience of OCD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0wxFB1AeAc
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tk421a on January 20, 2021, 02:44:11 pm
I don't have any experience myself. However someone close to me does. I had not noticed any of it until a time of particularly high stress for them. Similar things to you such as the repeated hand washing. I can't comment on therapy / medication, but just wanted to say that they're doing much better now and that it can and does improve.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: shark on January 20, 2021, 03:42:56 pm
Been chatting to Lagerstarfish and we are starting a weekly zoom session/support group tomorrow at 9pm full details here: https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31079.0.html
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: JamieG on January 20, 2021, 04:16:12 pm
Thanks for resurrecting this thread, I have been meaning to post for a while but have kept putting it off.

Around 2-3 years I started to develop obsessive compulsive disorder, I am not sure exactly when as I didn't realise that it was happening at first. Initially I just attributed it to stress in the third year of my PhD but it has continued long after. I had a pretty low ebb around 18 months ago and found myself retracing my steps everywhere I went incase something had happened (like what?) and washing my hands repeatedly incase I'd done it wrong. I managed to get a lot better on my own by October or November last year but still not 100%.

Unfortunately I've got a lot worse again since then. I mainly have a contamination type OCD, I worry about infecting other people with undiagnosed illnesses that I don't realise I have (eg if I cut myself when out bouldering and get blood on a hold I worry that the next person might touch it), or transferring dangerous substances to friends, family, and stangers. Covid has definitely not helped with this but my main problem is with chemicals. At work I am doing research on tissue clearing and microscopy, and this involves using a range of chemicals in a lab environment. I have struggled with this intermittently since I started last year but recently it has become unbearable. I become completely anxious and have to go home and thoroughly 'decontaminate' myself and anything I have touched since being in the lab. I'm pretty gutted that this has happened to me and I'm also pissed off about the major concern it is causing for my girlfriend and family.

I am currently seeing a psychotherapist weekly. At first this was really useful and allowed me to tackle a lot of the smaller problems. The way it works is that you put yourself in a triggering situation and then don't give in to washing your hands or retracing steps etc. Gradually you become less stressed in the situation until the compulsions are no longer necessary. The problem with the lab work is that the stress is absolutley intolerable and I think that is why I am struggling to deal with it.

I have not taken any medication so far but I am definitely considering it now.

Has anyone else on here experienced anything similar? I would love to hear from you if you have as I have not met anyone with similar experiences to this so far.

Sorry to hear about your OCD bigironhorse. I have had quite bad struggles with OCD, anxiety and depression for a number of years now. OCD is such a frustrating and at times debilitating condition. Mine particularly seems to focus around keeping the house and family safe. I.e. checking doors are locked, ovens off, taps off, etc etc. Not so much about germs and illness but that can flair occasionally too.

What I find particularly annoying is how arbitrary it can be. I'll check some things a ridiculous number of times and others not at all (which are in all likelihood just as "dangerous"). I am also aware that I have to be very careful not to start a habit since once it develops it is very hard to shake. I have developed quite a good and sweary inner monologue for myself when I get stuck in a loop. Amazing how brutal you can be on yourself. :-) I think it can also be hard for family since it is frustrating waiting for me to triple check everything before leaving the house, but my wife has been great about it and it does come and go a bit depending on how tired and stressed I am.

The bright (?) side is that I do take some medication which started because I had a bad depressive episode, but it also helped with my anxiety so I continued taking it. I don't think there is any shame in needing medication. I'm not particularly pleased about it, but it does help me so I continue. I have tried to come off it before and I fairly quickly relapsed into quite bad depressive episode and I don't really have any side effects so I stay on a low "maintenance" dose. I did CBT too which was helpful, but I found it hard to stick to. You need to be good at keeping the CBT up for it to be effective I think and I wasn't a good patient in this sense. The exposure part where you force yourself not to engage in the behaviour is horrible, but it does help if you can be consistent, since once I start checking something it tends to spiral quite quickly. I think the problem is it is easier and requires less energy to just quickly check than to fight the impulse at times. But is does seem to help if you can avoid the repetitive behaviour.

I'm not sure if this is particularly helpful to be honest. But I have learnt to live with and manage it. It doesn't impact my life too much I don't think. Whereas at some points the anxiety and OCD were pretty bad and I would get stuck not being able to leave the house for ages due to running back to check things. So it does get better with time. I think you just need to quite vigilant about it, get help were appropriate, and be kind to yourself. If it was a physical ailment I think it would be easier to accept, but fighting your own brain is weird and hard. Good luck with it and hope you are doing better soon.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: bigironhorse on January 21, 2021, 11:04:10 am
Thanks for the replies everyone. Just had a meeting with my boss, he was extremely understanding and is just going to let me return to the aspects of work that I find easiest first and then hopefully go back to my normal routine once things improve again. Feeling optimistic  :)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: JamieG on January 21, 2021, 12:29:11 pm
That's good news. I'm glad your boss was so understanding. I do think awareness of mental health issues has definitely improved. Good luck and hope you are doing better soon.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on January 21, 2021, 10:54:52 pm
Been chatting to Lagerstarfish and we are starting a weekly zoom session/support group tomorrow at 9pm full details here: https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31079.0.html

Just seen this .
Bravo!
 :clap2:   :clap2:

And Bigironhorse and everyone else  :thumbsup: :punk:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: colin8ll on February 01, 2021, 11:31:39 pm
I've been admiring from a distance the proactive approach members of this group have taken towards addressing mental health challenges   :great:. I'm hoping to tap into the wisdom of this group for some advice in dealing with my best mate who is going through a bad patch (I hope the hijack is okay). Here's the background...

He was ill last winter with OCD issues and I think some depression too. He received counselling and medication and over time things improved. However, his issues have returned and he's now in a materially difficult situation. He recently bought his first house with his partner and the move took them away from his parents who they had previously lived with, and the rest of their support network. The recent lockdown has meant he has been unable to work which has left him with no income and he is concerned about loosing the house. Obviously, due to current circumstances friends have not been able to visit. Last month he informed our social group that he would no longer be joining our Zoom socials as he finds them too alienating. When we spoke last week he told me about how he was feeling and I gently suggested he visit his doctor which he agreed would be a good idea. He's now not taking my calls but will text later, apologising and saying he lost track of time and will call the following evening - this is not like him.

The question is what should I do to support my friend?

Thanks   
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on February 02, 2021, 01:52:14 am
Tough position to be in.

Good question to ask.

Some of my ideas...

Not rocket science, nothing new  and certainly not the only things to consider...

Generally, doing something is better than doing nothing.

Keep calling, texting.

If he says outright that he doesn't want to talk, then explain that you are concerned that this is not how he usually is and would feel better if you did talk. (I mean say that you yourself would feel better for a talk)

Say that you will keep trying to contact him because you want to talk.

When stuff goes wrong for us mentally, it is common to feel that we don't have the ability or even the vocabulary to explain what is going on. This is a barrier to talking on it's own, but combined with a feeling of not wanting to drag others down or avoid feeling like we're moaning (again) makes talking really hard. Let him know that you are happy to let him rant and moan at you.

Talking about your own problems with your friend can be a good way to start talking. Thinking about other people's problems is loads easier than thinking about our own and helps get the brain and mouth working. Normal conversation is a two way thing anyway.

If communication dries up completely, tell him how concerned you are and that you now need to contact his partner (or other people) to help with your own worries. Give him a day or so to respond before going ahead with this (time frame could be different depending on the person, circumstances).

If you do talk, let him know how much better you feel for having talked.

The process of accessing appropriate support/treatment can seem painfully slow. This can be something helpful to talk about even if he doesn't want to talk about details of his symptoms.

(Possibly speculating too far, but if he's not picking up your calls, he may not be addressing other stuff like opening letters. With financial pressures, this has obvious consequences.)

You'll have a good feeling about which of these things are appropriate for your situation.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: tomtom on February 02, 2021, 08:07:58 am
That’s a hard position to be in Colin.

Lagers advice is much better than anything I could say - but having been in the position of not replying to people like your friend is (for a variety of reasons) - I ALWAYS appreciated getting a message and hearing from others. Even if I couldn’t summon the effort/courage/been too long - to reply I appreciated them.

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on February 02, 2021, 08:53:56 am
Lagers is your guy, sound advice there.

Even if he's being uncommunicative, keep in touch. Don't get worked up of there's no response, no ARE YOU OK, REPLY PLEASE ASAP or anything like that, just touch base, share things you normally would about the world, be it amusing videos, etc, just so he knows someone from the outside world is thinking about him.

Are you guys allowed to meet up with one person for exercise in England? Assuming they are nearby you obv.  Even just going for a walk and a chat might help?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: colin8ll on February 02, 2021, 09:30:05 am
Thanks very much Lagers, Chris and Tom. I am sure this is good advice. So I texted him this morning, and he's replied apologising again for 'loosing track of time' and not calling and has suggested we have a chat at the weekend. Given it's Tuesday I feel like he's using a bit of a delay tactic. However, I feel like I should respect this and wait until the weekend to call him but in the mean time I'll try and text him over the next day or so with something along the lines of 'I saw this and thought of you' just to keep the channel open and let him know (as you guys suggest) that he's being thought about.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on March 13, 2021, 07:07:22 pm
Public service announcement, because I just got reminded of this and am passing it along:

"Anniversary effects" are a thing -- an anniversary effect being when you "inexplicably" feel like shit around the anniversary of a traumatic event, even if you've not consciously registered the date.

As assorted psychologists have pointed out, the pandemic meets all the criteria for a traumatic event and, while it's been an ongoing one,  we are all hitting the anniversaries of our OH FUCK THIS IS GOING TO BE REALLY, REALLY BAD AND EVERYTHING IS SUDDENLY CHANGING VERY DRASTICALLY moments.

So for anyone who's found they're suddenly doing worse and don't know why, this might be one reason.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 13, 2021, 07:42:12 pm
Public service announcement, because I just got reminded of this and am passing it along:

"Anniversary effects" are a thing -- an anniversary effect being when you "inexplicably" feel like shit around the anniversary of a traumatic event, even if you've not consciously registered the date.

As assorted psychologists have pointed out, the pandemic meets all the criteria for a traumatic event and, while it's been an ongoing one,  we are all hitting the anniversaries of our OH FUCK THIS IS GOING TO BE REALLY, REALLY BAD AND EVERYTHING IS SUDDENLY CHANGING VERY DRASTICALLY moments.

So for anyone who's found they're suddenly doing worse and don't know why, this might be one reason.

Anniversaries suck.

But it’s funny which innocuous “Happy” days can be difficult. Tomorrow being Mothers day, gets split awkwardly around here. Starting with pressies and treats for Polly, before dropping off gifts to Grandma and then visiting the grave.
That gets repeated in a reverse family split, on Fathers day.
By the time we factor in birthdays, wedding anniversaries and death anniversaries, we don’t get a whole hell of a lot of year left. There’s always one coming or just passed.

So, we have practice and coping techniques, now, but it caused all sorts of issues in the early days.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: seankenny on March 13, 2021, 08:19:52 pm
It’s coming up to the first anniversary of my father in law dying suddenly of covid, so this post really resonated with me. Later this month will be my partner’s first birthday without her dad and that’s going to be really hard too.

Luckily my in-laws are Buddhist so there is a special first anniversary ceremony that takes place, which acts as some kind of focus. But still, dreading the whole period.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 13, 2021, 08:25:08 pm
It’s coming up to the first anniversary of my father in law dying suddenly of covid, so this post really resonated with me. Later this month will be my partner’s first birthday without her dad and that’s going to be really hard too.

Luckily my in-laws are Buddhist so there is a special first anniversary ceremony that takes place, which acts as some kind of focus. But still, dreading the whole period.

I like these things.

The Romanian Orthodox tradition is that after death, the spirit travels the earth visiting all the people and places they visited or knew in life. The spirit returns to their close family at six months, one year and 18 months before departing. On those dates, they celebrate the departed, often as if they were there.

It helped.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on March 20, 2022, 03:56:57 pm
Might be of interest?

https://www.mentalhealthswims.co.uk

Peer support and chucking yourself in cold water.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Falling Down on October 10, 2022, 03:23:06 pm
On October 10th 2012, ten years ago today, I started this thread with the post I’ve quoted below.  I hope it’s been a useful place for us to reach out and open up and it even led to the marvellous Black Dog club that Lagerstarfish so kindly started and led.

It’s been quite the journey for me personally, and now, a decade on, I’m in the very closing stages of a six-year training as a psychotherapist with a PGDip and (soon to be finished) MA under my belt and over 700 hours of client work gained in placements since 2018 and more recently in private practice.  By this time next year I’ll be UKCP certified and winding down the day job with a view to going into full-time private practice at the beginning of 2024. (Humblebrag over)

If anyone had told me all that back in 2012 I would thought they were in La La land.

Once I’ve got the MA out of the way in November, I’ll be gently attempting a climbing comeback of sorts so will see some of you out at the crags and blocs hopefully.



The/My Black Dog?

"My biggest fear was being found out"

"He used to wake me up with repetitive and negative thinking and remind me about how tired I would be the next day"

"Activities that previously brought me pleasure suddenly ceased to" But I'm on the road to recovery.

It doesn't matter who you are, if you're in difficulty don't be afraid to ask for help, there's no shame in doing so, the only shame is missing out on life.

I had a black dog, his name was depression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc#)

At its worst, depression can be a frightening, debilitating condition. Millions of people around the world live with depression. Many of these individuals and their families are afraid to talk about their struggles, and don't know where to turn for help. However, depression is largely preventable and treatable. Recognizing depression and seeking help is the first and most critical towards recovery. In collaboration with WHO to mark

World Mental Health Day, writer and illustrator Matthew Johnstone tells the story of overcoming the "black dog of depression". For more information on World Mental Health Day, please visit: www.who.int (http://www.who.int)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on October 10, 2022, 04:41:14 pm
Good work FD, that's a lot of effort.

I think we know what your comeback route needs to be; https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/vivian_quarry-639/psychotherapy-8710

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: lagerstarfish on October 10, 2022, 07:23:50 pm
If you know anyone who might benefit from this, get to it

https://twitter.com/VertebratePub/status/1579526952054329344?t=op71thIyVrtgEg0XNp9Amg&s=19
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on October 11, 2022, 08:19:52 am
Just when I thought I couldn't like what VP do any more.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on December 14, 2022, 03:03:00 pm
A question about anti-depressants (since I couldn't find a specific thread for those). I'd like some advice about increasing / changing my medication due to having more acute / severe depression (+anxiety +moodswings +emotional lows) than previously.

I've been on 10-20mg of Citalopram for 13 years. Started at 20mg, then dropped to 10mg and mostly at that until upping it back to 20mg at the end of 2021 to cope with injury/age-derived depression. Have recently upped to 30mg to cope with more acute depression.

I've found the Citalopram to be effective at reducing anxiety and overthinking, and thus the low moods that come from that, and being generally soothing. I think it was still having an effect as the 10mg helped get me through lockdowns and the 20mg took the edge off earlier this year. Side-effects are having a bit of a "wrapped in fog" feeling, less determination, lower sex drive. I'm wary about those increased side-effects with a higher dose. And also the 30mg doesn't seem to be alleviating things as much as I'd hoped.

...

I've spoken to the GP recently who is happy for me to increase my dose but also happy for me to change to another common anti-depressant. Possibilities:

Sertraline - I know a few people on this and all have given favourable reports (alleviates anxiety whilst still feeling like themselves). I've been warned that it can have affect stomach issues (may or may not be a problem for me given my residual digestive issues are small intestine based??)

Venlaflaxine - A friend is on this, reported similar benefits as I had with Citalopram, but said it was much better ("Venlaflaxine is the real deal, when I tried other ones they were like Aldi budget anti-depressants").

Fluoxetine - an unknown quantity. I was briefly switched from Citalopram to something else when I was in hospital with DVTs, the switch over was easy but whatever I changed to was too much of an "upper", less anxiety-reducing and more mood/energy-boosting, which was completely unsuitable at the time when I needed to rest a lot. This MAY have been Fluoxetine (GP didn't have my records to check), the name sounds familiar.

...

I have a follow up appointment next Tuesday and may try a change over. But advice would be welcome (feel free to PM / Whatsapp / FB message me if you want it to be confidential). I don't mind trying to switch to something that might have slightly different effects, or have most side effects (except nausea - I'm not put off by others). But I'm wary of switching to something that doesn't have as strong an effect overall as the 30mg Citalopram - now is not the time to be risking being without that crutch. My only prior experience of switching was pretty smooth at that time though.

(P.S. Yes I am trying to do a lot of other stuff in terms of self-care, maintenance, getting support etc (which I started months previously), as much as mood allows, the anti-depressants are to try to get some stability in an acute situation to feel able to cope and then take more practical steps).
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on December 14, 2022, 03:33:08 pm
Fluoxetine is Prozac, which is usually prescribed for mild depression.
Sertaline or Prozac would often be tried first but if they have little effect you would try Venlafaxine or Citalopram.
I might be wrong though as my recent knowledge is 5 years old having be out of the service for that long.
There is quite a lot of medication that will help with anxiety however it is often a side effect as the medication will be for something different. You usually need to see a Psychiatrist to get these meds.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 14, 2022, 03:37:14 pm
OH HEY IT'S ONE OF THE TOPICS I CAN NERD OUT ABOUT

Venlafaxine: very effective for a lot of people, it's an SNRI so can hit the parts SSRIs don't reach, but notorious for having a rough withdrawal syndrome if you need to come off it, so it has to be tapered slowly.

That's not a reason not to use it, especially if like me you're looking at being on meds for the foreseeable future, just a thing to be aware of.

Yeah fluoxetine can lean towards the "jittery" for some people; yeah sertraline is more likely than other SSRIs to cause stomach stuff/nausea in the start-up period, though often SSRI start-up effects will settle down after a few weeks so it can be worth trying to ride it out.

Query: worth asking your GP if escitalopram might be an option? It's basically a "cleaner" version of citalopram, bit more effective and lower side-effects.

So if you know citalopram works for you, you might have decent odds that escitalopram will work too, and you might be able to get a decent result with lower side-effects. Also it tends to kick in and start working faster than a lot of SSRIs.

Side-effects are having a bit of a "wrapped in fog" feeling, less determination, lower sex drive. I'm wary about those increased side-effects with a higher dose.

If you keep getting those side-effects and your GP is willing to go outside the box a bit: adding bupropion to your meds might be an option to consider.

It's only licensed for stopping smoking in the UK, not as an antidepressant, but using it off-label to cancel out SSRI side-effects (and for its own antidepressant capacity) is a fairly common thing.

I have a very small dose of bupropion in my meds cocktail and it's just because otherwise I get emotional flattening.

Downside: being on multiple meds does cement the feeling of officially being A Psychiatric Patient now.

(P.S. Yes I am trying to do a lot of other stuff in terms of self-care, maintenance, getting support etc (which I started months previously), as much as mood allows, the anti-depressants are to try to get some stability in an acute situation to feel able to cope and then take more practical steps).

Have a fist-bump of solidarity!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: joel182 on December 14, 2022, 03:54:40 pm
Sertraline - I know a few people on this and all have given favourable reports (alleviates anxiety whilst still feeling like themselves). I've been warned that it can have affect stomach issues (may or may not be a problem for me given my residual digestive issues are small intestine based??)

Another positive review for Sertraline from me. Generally makes me more energetic and motivated, less anxious. Have gone on and off it over the last couple of years depending on my situation.

When starting a new cycle I notice some GI tract side effects - general awareness of my gut, sometimes a bit nauseous. Makes a lot of sense to since the GI tract has a huge number of serotonin receptors.  Always fades for me after a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: webbo on December 14, 2022, 04:01:32 pm
The drug I was thinking of is Pregabilin, it’s an anti epilepsy drug. However it works for anxiety, we used see great results with it, not sure whether your GP would prescribe it though.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 14, 2022, 04:14:21 pm
That's the third item in my meds cocktail! Has a lot of off-label uses, including as an add-on to antidepressants if they're not working on their own.

My late psychiatrist was a big fan of it as an add-on for people with treatment-resistant depression and anxiety.

However, like other anti-convulsants, it can have really heavy side-effects (I used to have a functional short-term memory ...). And it's now a controlled drug because it can be abused, so you have to get prescriptions for a month at a time, which is tedious.

So I wouldn't rec going on it as a first choice, but it's definitely got its uses when other stuff isn't enough.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on December 14, 2022, 07:40:56 pm
Thanks people especially tablet_happy

Rough withdrawals:  I think I can deal with this, when I've dropped my cpram from 20mg to 10mg I've done it very carefully over a few weeks. I did try to go off completely in the early 2010s but I couldn't handle it. I also fully expect to be on something lifelong so don't anticipate and to-zero withdrawals!

Stomach stuff / nausea: Is a risk I'm wary of. I could deal with cramps and runs and whatever but pure nausea I struggle with. I guess I might have to chance something.

Venlaflaxine:  Is something I'm more tempted by because as you say it hits other parts so could be an improvement over cpram (which although I say it has been working, it doesn't feel like enough). I've got another friend to chat to tomorrow who should know more.

Escitalpram: Could be an option and will mention it to the GP.

Combatting side-effects: I guess is more of an issue if I'm upping the cpram further. Not sure if that's the course of action I will take.

I don't mind being a bit of a rattling pill box. I do try to keep chemical influences on my brain to a bare minimum (hence fluctuating around the lowest doses of cpram), but I realise at certain stages I might have to put those qualms aside.



Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Duncan campbell on December 14, 2022, 10:29:41 pm
I was on Sertraline for a fair chunk of 2021 and found it to be very helpful.

No real side effects for me. Felt a bit worse for the first couple of weeks but after that felt much better.

Sorry to hear things aren’t great atm Fiend. Hope you find something to help  :)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: edshakey on December 14, 2022, 11:02:13 pm
Got no knowledge to offer I'm afraid, but best of luck mate, fingers crossed the solution isn't too hard to come by. Glad you're trying to find it!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 15, 2022, 08:22:50 am
Combatting side-effects: I guess is more of an issue if I'm upping the cpram further. Not sure if that's the course of action I will take.

Yeah, I figured I'd just mention it in case you end up going that way.

Btw, if you've not already given them a go, might be worth taking some B-vitamins (moderate dose, you don't need the mega-doses that are in a lot of supplements, and in fact I find mega-doses worsen my anxiety).

Not remotely a substitute for meds, but being deficient in them can fuck with you and make it harder for the meds to work (many of them are involved in synthesizing neurotransmitters).

So, could be worth adding to the general self-care stuff while you work on getting the meds sorted.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: hansmaro on December 15, 2022, 01:38:54 pm
Regarding venlafaxine. I was successfully taking escitalopram to counter som pretty nightmarish OCD which i develped during the first year of uni. Fast forward a few years and the med seemed not to be working anymore. OCD flared up worse than ever, and it felt like i was living in a perpetual nightmare. Psychiatrist suggested trying venlafaxine (amongst others..) For me personally, the side-effects were horrible. Severe urinary retention, erectile dysfunction, night-sweat and itchy skin. Tapering was impossible due to the withdrawal symptoms, the worst being sensations of mild electrocution in the head and arms whenever i moved my head around... Managed  to go off SSRIs completely in the end after switching to sertraline. Side effects were more tolerable due to its longer half-life. Obviously there are many people who respond well to venlafaxine, but the horrible withdrawal-symptoms seems to be a common theme... What has helped me most in the end has been to cultivate a more accepting attitude towards my own emotions (however bad) and a daily dose of lamotrigine.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on December 15, 2022, 08:10:07 pm
Cheers for the input hansmaro. That's scary stuff although the side-effects definitely vary from person to person. I'll recheck with my friend who is on it too.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 16, 2022, 11:33:14 am
Yeah, it's worth saying explicitly (if it hasn't been said already) that people's reactions to psych meds can vary hugely, so there's often a fair amount of trial and error in finding something that works and doesn't cause un-manageable side-effects.

A.k.a. the meds merry-go-round, on which I have spent a lot of time.

You can get an idea of the direction side-effects tend to lean in for a lot of people, but no way of predicting what you personally will or won't get.

It's frustrating as fuck, but on the plus side, if whatever you try doesn't work out: there are other options.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on December 20, 2022, 09:40:45 pm
Update from seeing the GP this morning.

Switching to Escitalopram, Sertraline and Venlaflaxine are all options. Switching to the first two is a fairly easy "fade one out, fade the other in" process. Switching to the last seems to be a more complicated process of tapering off the Citalopram completely and then starting taking Venlaflaxine which seems a recipe for a month of utter shitastrophe.

Since even the first two have some risks of disruption, and there's less chance of getting follow-ups, emergency prescriptions and what-have-you over the festive period, I've decided to stick to the 30mg of Citalopram for now and tackle any switches in the new year. The 30mg of Cpram currently doesn't feel enough, and previously going on it or going from 10mg to 20mg has had beneficial effects in 2 weeks, but maybe this increase is taking longer to help because I'm in a bit more of a state, who knows. Also I could sneakily increase to 40mg of Cpram if things felt worse as well as trying to tackle acute periods without more outside support.

TL,DR - not changing right now due to switching disruption over festive period.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on December 20, 2022, 11:09:06 pm
Having been on Sertraline (up to 150mg at my worst) I'd say be prepared for the numbness. I quit it after being sick of feeling nothing. I thought to myself "I'd rather feel down than feel nothing".
It was tough quitting Sertraline, I felt as if I had electric shocks in my brain, but I'm much, much better for doing it.

In the short term, low doses it's useful, but longer term or higher doses it's horrible. Just my opinion though.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 21, 2022, 03:34:07 pm
TL,DR - not changing right now due to switching disruption over festive period.

Makes sense, but sympathies, it's stressful to have to wait and try to hang in there while you're in limbo.

The 30mg of Cpram currently doesn't feel enough, and previously going on it or going from 10mg to 20mg has had beneficial effects in 2 weeks, but maybe this increase is taking longer to help because I'm in a bit more of a state, who knows.

There's also a delightful phenomenon often referred to as "Prozac poop-out" (technically "antidepressant treatment tachyphylaxis"), where some people find that a given antidepressant gets less effective for them over time (apparently SSRIs may be more prone to this than other classes of antidepressant)

On the plus side, it can usually be fixed just by swapping to a different one.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on December 21, 2022, 04:00:08 pm
Cheers.

Andy - noted. From what I understand 150mg is a high dose (I think my ex fluctuates around there lifelong to manage her BPD). The GP said Sertraline starting dose would be 50mg. So if the effectiveness increase is remotely comparable to Cpram then I guess 150mg would have strong numbing / wrapped-in-wool effects. TBH there are times recently when I would definitely take the numbing (or being sedated / comatose) as a valid option short term. But not long term I concur. That's partly why I've kept the Cpram at the minimum manageable dose for me.

Slab_happy - yes, other people have mentioned that "you could be just used to the citalopram and getting less of an effect from it now". I haven't been sure about that because I've felt stable on the 10mg for years, upping to 20mg for the digestive-depression seemed to work, and I got through the pandemic and lockdowns on 10mg. Maybe it suddenly drops off after 10 years?? Or maybe it the current mental disruption just exceeds a threshold where it's effective enough?? Hmmm in that context, would switching to Escitalopram be worthwhile? Or too similar??
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 21, 2022, 04:37:09 pm
Slab_happy - yes, other people have mentioned that "you could be just used to the citalopram and getting less of an effect from it now". I haven't been sure about that because I've felt stable on the 10mg for years, upping to 20mg for the digestive-depression seemed to work, and I got through the pandemic and lockdowns on 10mg. Maybe it suddenly drops off after 10 years?? Or maybe it the current mental disruption just exceeds a threshold where it's effective enough?? Hmmm in that context, would switching to Escitalopram be worthwhile? Or too similar??

Yeah, I found myself wondering the same thing about escitalopram when I wrote that, but unfortunately this all falls into the vast psychopharmacological category labelled "Who The Fuck Knows???", with no way of answering it except trying it and seeing.

FWIW, I actually found myself weirdly feeling a lot better about psychiatry when I found out that the first antidepressants got discovered by accident in the 1950s when they were testing new tuberculosis drugs and found that a couple of them seemed to cheer the patients up. And since then, it's all been throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks and we still don't really know why it works, when it does; we have some theories but that's it.

Like, it's not that doctors are being cryptic and unhelpful, it's that this is an incredibly young field of medicine (and concerning an organ system where there are a lot more practical problems with cutting it open to see what's gone wrong with it), so of course we're floundering round desperately trying stuff.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: MarkJ on December 21, 2022, 07:54:28 pm
These seems like an odd way to use my first post on the forum ( long-term lurker ! ) but it may be that I can add something useful from my own experiences to this discussion. It would be great if can help Fiend, because I like his vids a lot !

I ended up taking AD's back in 2007 with a really rough period of work stress which was compounded by taking Zopiclone for sleep. I found however that SSRI's just made me hyper and I had a mini breakdown from this combination.
Eventually a consultation with the local hospital put me on Trazodone ( an SNRI ) which has worked very well for me, but my problems are less about pure depression and more about anxiety and poor sleep causing depression.

In the process of the last few years I've found a small number of nutritional additions that help quite a lot, as well. They are :

Vitamin D - since I was starting to suffer from SAD, like my father, I tried taking more vitamin D, but found that capsules beyond 1000iu would tend to give me anxiety. In the end I bought a UV-B sun canopy in 2008 which I use once a week in the Winter, and now my winters are normal and productive, as much as other times of the year. My Vit D level is textbook perfect these days.

Vitamin B6 : tricky this one but I find it's essential for me to take some. I have tried reducing or stopping taking it but depression comes in. I take about half of a 50mg in the evenings. It can be anxiety or insomnia-inducing if you take too much, so if you don't take any, try something like 10mg/day to try , preferably pm.

Zinc : I have found this equally as important to me as B6, I take 25mg all the time and 2x25mg if I get into some acute stress or have been drinking too much eg. at Christmas. I have done an RBC zinc test a while back and my levels are just below midline, so I think I might have been mildly deficient before I started taking it, and it's known to cause depression if low.

Magnesium : another one that I have taken for years and have tested. I take a maintenance dose of about 200mg/day these days. I only take the chelated form, and a lot of the off the shelf common ones are oxide which is useless ( for me ) . I was mildly deficient in this for a long spell, maybe as a result of overtrianing as a cyclist.

Hope this is of some use.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 21, 2022, 07:55:39 pm
Btw, Fiend, while you're hanging in there, my other rec apart from B-vits would be to try getting an hour or so of daylight into your brain each morning if possible.

Even if your depression isn't seasonal per se, getting adequate amounts of bright light can help (including with setting sleep patterns, which in turn impact on mood) and can be a major challenge at this time of year.

Again, not a substitute for the meds, but can help them work as well as possible.

A lightbox (for shorter durations) can be very effective, but also jittery/over-stimulating for some people; I wouldn't want to try that while about to start changing meds, as it makes it too hard to sort out what's causing what.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 21, 2022, 08:31:01 pm
Hi Mark -- thanks for adding your experiences!

I have the same thing with finding B-vitamins essential, but anxiety inducing in high doses (and a lot of supplements seem to go for very high doses of some of them, presumably because they're cheap and it looks super-impressive to have 50 times the RDA of B12).

Biocare do some liquid B-vitamins, which are very handy because you can tinker with the dose by number of drops.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on December 22, 2022, 12:31:46 pm
Thanks for the further replies, noted and appreciated.

(and concerning an organ system where there are a lot more practical problems with cutting it open to see what's gone wrong with it)
:unsure: Oh. So it might be a waste of time seeing if I can get trepanning on the NHS??

Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 22, 2022, 12:46:08 pm
Yeah, "what if we cut a hole to let the demons out?" is no longer considered best practice.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Andy F on December 22, 2022, 01:10:22 pm
Thanks for the further replies, noted and appreciated.

(and concerning an organ system where there are a lot more practical problems with cutting it open to see what's gone wrong with it)
:unsure: Oh. So it might be a waste of time seeing if I can get trepanning on the NHS??
Trepanning. Officially better for your mental health than the Tories.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on December 26, 2022, 01:38:49 pm
Btw, Fiend, while you're hanging in there, my other rec apart from B-vits would be to try getting an hour or so of daylight into your brain each morning if possible.

Even if your depression isn't seasonal per se, getting adequate amounts of bright light can help (including with setting sleep patterns, which in turn impact on mood) and can be a major challenge at this time of year.

Again, not a substitute for the meds, but can help them work as well as possible.

A lightbox (for shorter durations) can be very effective, but also jittery/over-stimulating for some people; I wouldn't want to try that while about to start changing meds, as it makes it too hard to sort out what's causing what.


R4 prog on SAD lamps here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001f4xg

If you skip to around halfway through, 'Professor of Circadian Neuroscience' Russel Foster has this to say about SAD lamps:
Quote
A 2016 research paper looked at both seasonal and non-seasonal depression and compared 30 minutes of 10,000 lux in the morning with Prozac. "What was fascinating was that the light treatment was statistically more effective than Prozac and placebo at two weeks," says Russell, "and eight weeks is when Prozac became statistically significant from placebo, and light treatment was really much more effective than Prozac."

"So, we've got good evidence that bright light in the morning can reduce levels of depression, both in Seasonal Affective Disorder and in non-seasonal depression as well."

Not sure which study he's referring to, a quick search shows there are loads out there.

I don't suffer from depression but find my energy levels can sometimes drop during periods of prolonged low light (aka winter). I bought a 10,000 lux SAD lamp years ago and use it for 10mins at breakfast whenever I find myself feeling lethargic through the winter months. I notice the increase in mood and energy using it brings. I also take vit D drops daily from around mid Nov to end of Feb.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 26, 2022, 02:44:09 pm
Yeah, there's a solid amount of research and it's fascinating. I can rec the Big Orange Book of Chronotherapeutics for anyone who wants to get hardcore nerdy about this stuff (and related topics like dark therapy for mania):

https://www.karger.com/Book/Toc/257464
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on December 26, 2022, 03:48:26 pm
Btw, for anyone thinking about a lightbox for depression, it's important to check the specs, because you need 10,000 lux at a feasible distance (usually having your eyes within 30cm of the box). Last time I looked, there are some cheap boxes which will claim "10,000 lux", but it then turns out that this is only true if your eyes are 10cm from the box, so watch out for that.

Dawn simulators and full-spectrum lights are not the same thing (though they have their own uses).

Needs to be right after waking, and the usual starting dose is 30 mins but may need to be adjusted up or down from there.

The downside is that it can have some of the side-effects of other antidepressants, notably making you feel jittery/overstimulated, or kicking you into mania or a mixed state if you have bipolar tendencies.

Which is why I wouldn't rec trying it while adjusting meds at the same time. But they can be extremely effective, including for non-seasonal depression.

I use mine in tandem with meds, though as we've probably established by now, my brain is a very special snowflake that requires a whole cocktail of stuff to keep it vaguely functional.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on January 05, 2023, 09:23:19 am
Okay next question...

20mg of Cpram made me a bit dozy a few hours after taking it, and taking an evening dose generally got me to sleep well and sleeping through the night (I tend to sleep a fair bit probably due to metabolism / DVTs / digestion).

30mg of Cpram makes me get to sleep just fine as before, but I'm consistently waking in the very early morning and struggling to get back to sleep (not too much anxiety going on, just awake), inevitably before finally falling asleep just as the alarm goes off, feeling very sluggish, struggling to eat in the mornings etc.

To try to alleviate this, I'm taking 10mg Cpram in the morning, and 20mg in the evening as before, which doesn't help, neither did taking 30mg in the evening.

So....

Are there any supplements I could take to help me sleep through the night (not just get to sleep)?

Do I just need to paint more orcs before bed?

Is this an inevitable consequence of an increased dose?

Would Escitalopram with it's apparently reduced side-effects alleviate this problem?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 05, 2023, 12:47:57 pm
Waking early and not being able to get back to sleep is, for a lot of people, a depression symptom (it's even a diagnostic marker for the "melancholic" subtype of depression -- for anyone who thought that "melancholia" went out with the 17th century, nope, still a thing).

It's so predictable for me that I can use it as a warning sign of when stuff's starting to slide in an ominous way, rather than just a passing dip.

So it could well be something that'll resolve when you get on meds that are more effective for you, rather than being a meds side-effect itself.

I realize that doesn't help in the meantime.

Supplement-wise, magnesium's helpful for sleep in general, melatonin is great (but needs a prescription), but I don't know of anything that targets the early-morning waking in particular.

I'd suggest avoiding bright light and blue light from computers, phones, etc. until you reach the time when you'd actually want to be waking up, but that's damage limitation to prevent it from worsening, rather than something that'll make the core problem go away.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: jshaw on January 05, 2023, 12:56:05 pm
Waking early and not being able to get back to sleep is, for a lot of people, a depression symptom (it's even a diagnostic marker for the "melancholic" subtype of depression -- for anyone who thought that "melancholia" went out with the 17th century, nope, still a thing).

Do you have any more info on this?

I get this a LOOOT but haven't been able to pinpoint why.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on January 05, 2023, 01:32:19 pm
Me too. Normally go to bed around midnight, up at 3-4 for a pee, then about an hour to get back to sleep, and in deep sleep when alarm goes off about 7:15.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 05, 2023, 01:44:50 pm
Like everything else in psychiatry, this is the subject of ongoing research and debate, and the classifications get shuffled around over time, but there's a school of thought that "melancholia" a.k.a. "major depressive disorder with melancholic features" (in DSM-5) is a distinct subtype of depression, or possibly even a different illness from other forms.

On top of meeting the criteria for a depressive episode, current criteria for "melancholic features" are that you have to have anhedonia and/or not feeling better (except very briefly) when something good happens, and also three or more out of (I quote):

    a mood defined by “profound despondency, despair, and/or moroseness,” or feeling empty
    worse depression in the morning
    waking up early, such as 2 hours earlier than usual
    intense restlessness (psychomotor agitation) or visibly slowed movements
    significant weight loss
    excessive feelings of guilt

"Melancholic" features are believed by many psychiatrists to be associated with depression that's more biological in origin, less responsive to psychotherapy (but still responsive to meds), possibly with some connection to things going wacky in the body's hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (the early morning waking may be to do with cortisol), and more likely to be severe.

The opposing school of thought says this is just bog-standard depression that happens to have a particular garnish of these secondary symptoms rather than others, but that this doesn't make a meaningful difference in treatment or prognosis.

Obviously you can also get early-morning waking as a sleep problem without being depressed at all; this is just about early-morning waking in the context of depression.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 05, 2023, 01:52:29 pm
Me too. Normally go to bed around midnight, up at 3-4 for a pee, then about an hour to get back to sleep, and in deep sleep when alarm goes off about 7:15.

Oooh, biphasic sleep! If you can get back to sleep after an hour and aren't depressed, then I recommend getting a copy of A Roger Ekirch's amazing book At Day's Close and not stressing about it, because that may actually have been the normal sleep pattern for a lot of human societies pre-Industrial Revolution. It's FASCINATING.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieval-habit-of-biphasic-sleep
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep

Just use the hour to read or do something else that's relaxing and won't wake you up more, and don't worry that it means you're sleeping "badly".
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: jshaw on January 05, 2023, 02:00:36 pm
Like everything else in psychiatry, this...

Very interesting, thank you!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Liamhutch89 on January 05, 2023, 02:44:33 pm
Okay next question...

20mg of Cpram made me a bit dozy a few hours after taking it, and taking an evening dose generally got me to sleep well and sleeping through the night (I tend to sleep a fair bit probably due to metabolism / DVTs / digestion).

30mg of Cpram makes me get to sleep just fine as before, but I'm consistently waking in the very early morning and struggling to get back to sleep (not too much anxiety going on, just awake), inevitably before finally falling asleep just as the alarm goes off, feeling very sluggish, struggling to eat in the mornings etc.

To try to alleviate this, I'm taking 10mg Cpram in the morning, and 20mg in the evening as before, which doesn't help, neither did taking 30mg in the evening.

So....

Are there any supplements I could take to help me sleep through the night (not just get to sleep)?

Do I just need to paint more orcs before bed?

Is this an inevitable consequence of an increased dose?

Would Escitalopram with it's apparently reduced side-effects alleviate this problem?

Obviously I have no medical advice whatsoever, but I have spent the last few years maximizing sleep quality and quantity after reading 'Why We Sleep' by Matthew Walker (a leading neuroscientist specializing in sleep). Anecdotally, after going from around 6 hours of irregular sleep up to usually a solid 8 hours (when kids allow!), I have much more energy, my mood is better, my testosterone levels 'feel' higher (no bloodwork to confirm), I'm seemingly less injury prone, and my basal metabolic rate has increased from c.2,600kCals up to about 3,000kCals to maintain my weight.

His book provides many examples of how insufficient sleep (less than 7-8 hours of actual sleep) affects almost every aspect of your physiology and psychology, as well as its links to other health problems, but the key takeaways in terms of improving sleep are:

Go to sleep and wake up at a consistent time every day including weekends. Setting a bedtime alarm is a practical step to help with this.

Get at least 30 minutes of daylight in the morning. Sitting near a window does not seem to be enough - get outside! For me this isn't always practical so I have one of those SAD lamps and blast myself with it in a morning at my desk.

Ensure your bedroom is cool and pitch black. I've installed blackout blinds to help reducing light pollution and my phone is always placed screen down in case it tries to notify me (obviously on silent).

Reduce all light exposure in the evening. Blue light and LED's appear to be particularly bad, but all light matters. Again this one is hard for me as I record/mix music using a computer in an evening. Although there's not much quality evidence supporting them yet, I wear amber tinted blue light reducing glasses for 2 hours before bed, which make me look like a weirdo, but they help a lot in my experience (much better than the blue light filter on screens which does nothing for me).

No caffeine after mid day (long half life) and no alcohol/cannabis. If you have to drink then preferably do it in a morning!

Drugs which aid sleep are actually bad for sleep quality, which is equally important as quantity. Of course, this may be unavoidable when they are needed for other issues e.g. anxiety.

Regular exercise, but not too close to bed time.

Don't eat close to bed time.

Don't drink anything for an hour or two before bed.

Most people's lives won't allow them to hit all of the above, but hopefully improving some of them could have noticeable effects after a few days. Sorry if this is all old news to you.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on January 05, 2023, 02:51:30 pm
Just use the hour to read or do something else that's relaxing and won't wake you up more, and don't worry that it means you're sleeping "badly".

I'll have a look at the book thanks. Me reading for an hour would be fine, but not for partner!
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 05, 2023, 02:57:31 pm
Just use the hour to read or do something else that's relaxing and won't wake you up more, and don't worry that it means you're sleeping "badly".

I'll have a look at the book thanks. Me reading for an hour would be fine, but not for partner!

Podcast on headphones, then?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 05, 2023, 03:07:31 pm
Like everything else in psychiatry, this...

Very interesting, thank you!

Yeah, it's been argued that "depression" as a diagnostic category is probably kind of like having "chest pain" as a diagnostic category would be: you've got similar symptoms that are probably caused by an assortment of different underlying conditions that need different treatments, but we don't yet have any of the knowledge when it comes to brains to identify the different conditions and distinguish the mental equivalents of heartburn and angina and heart attacks. Because, as previously mentioned, it's such a young field.

So right now, psychiatry is doing the equivalent of "Some people get chest pain! Sometimes they're fine the next day and sometimes they die. We did a study where we gave aspirin to everyone who has chest pain, and ... sometimes that seems to help?"

Hopefully in the future, people will be able to look back and laugh at how little people in the early 21st century understood any of this stuff.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on January 05, 2023, 05:08:34 pm
Thanks for the replies.

A couple of things:

This early morning waking wasn't happening on 20mg of Cpram, NOR was it happening regularly in the pre-30mg stages of my recent depression. I did often get anxiety spirals in the night before ever going on meds, but this feels different to that.

I tend to do almost all the things that Liam98 says and indeed being able to sleep even in depressive periods has previously been pretty reliable. Although I did find that last night at 5am reading on my phone about historical serial killers enabled me to get back sleep quicker than expected  :blink:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on January 05, 2023, 05:26:20 pm
Another recco for the ‘Why we Sleep’ book.. really good. And the chapter describing the progression of symptoms for sufferers of a rare disease that completely stops sufferers being able to sleep -terminal in all cases - is truly horrific! (Would say the stuff of nightmares, but sufferers would do anything for the opportunity to have a nightmare).

SAChris, might be worth trying some pygeum (prunus africanis tree bark extract) if nighttime peeing is linked to prostrate. I went through a six month phase a few years ago of being woken by this, tried pygeum and it eliminated the issue v.quickly. Haven’t taken it since then and the issue hasn’t returned so it was possibly linked to stress.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 05, 2023, 05:52:59 pm
And the chapter describing the progression of symptoms for sufferers of a rare disease that completely stops sufferers being able to sleep -terminal in all cases - is truly horrific! (Would say the stuff of nightmares, but sufferers would do anything for the opportunity to have a nightmare).

Oh god, fatal familial insomnia, right? Yeah, there's a horror.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 05, 2023, 06:55:11 pm
Just use the hour to read or do something else that's relaxing and won't wake you up more, and don't worry that it means you're sleeping "badly".

I'll have a look at the book thanks. Me reading for an hour would be fine, but not for partner!

I’ve started using the red head torch I use for stargazing to read in bed without disturbing the wife. She gets to sleep fine. Petzl bindi but cheaper alternatives obvs.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on January 05, 2023, 10:10:54 pm
Good suggestions, but she's a very light sleeper too. Will see how it goes. And thanks for the extract suggestion pete, I'll look into.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 07, 2023, 11:48:58 am
The main thing is to find something to do so you're not just lying with your eyes shut thinking about how you're still awake, because that tends to prolong the sleeplessness and make it more stressful.

Ironically, accepting it as a pattern that can be natural and normal tends to lead to being able to get back to sleep much faster.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 16, 2023, 12:34:42 pm
If anyone's thinking about a lightbox, btw, this is the one I've got and you can currently get a refurbished one for 40% off:

https://www.lumie.com/products/desklamp-sad-light-refurbished

It's a handy one because, as well as lightbox-ing, you can bend it down and use it as a task light for any craft activities.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: seankenny on January 16, 2023, 02:26:20 pm
I have exactly the same make and model, it works well for me too.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on January 16, 2023, 09:31:06 pm
Nice one.. been perusing for ages (years even) and never got round to taking the plunge and parting with some cash.  I've struggled this year in particular (lots of other stuff going on) and was looking again.  However, never sure how much to spend, whether to believe reviews, etc etc.
Happy to have had a recommendation on here from satisfied users.. so grabbed one of these

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 16, 2023, 10:05:06 pm
With apologies for the dumb question, but could you use this as a desk lamp as well as a light box or is that just the model name?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on January 16, 2023, 10:19:14 pm
Website seems to suggest you can indeed.

4 levels of light, so you can dim it down, and use the diffuser for more general use.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 17, 2023, 07:13:18 am
With apologies for the dumb question, but could you use this as a desk lamp as well as a light box or is that just the model name?

Yeah, absolutely.  For using it as a lightbox, you want it about 20cm from your eyes. But move it further away, stick the diffuser on it if you want, dim it and/or angle it down as needed, and it's just a nice bright light.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on January 17, 2023, 11:53:34 am
So, another dumb question.. how do you use it, practically day to day, as a light box.. 

Do you literally sit staring at it 20cm from your eyes for 30min each morning?  Sounds like a recipe for retina damage!

I'd have to juggle my morning routine somewhat to fit that in.

This is more for next year.. I'm generally feeling a lot better in Jan Feb towards spring, naturally. Especially when the weather is like today  :bounce:  Its Nov/Dec I generally struggle with. 
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 17, 2023, 12:30:44 pm
Do you literally sit staring at it 20cm from your eyes for 30min each morning?

Slightly above your eye-line, if possible. So you don't have to be staring into the light, and you can do other stuff while you get your lightbox time in.  But yeah, 20 cm (or whatever the appropriate distance is for that lightbox to get 10,000 lux).

I try to arrange mine so it's shining down into my eyes at an angle while I look at the internet and drink my coffee.

30 minutes is a "standard" dose, but I'd recommend with starting with 15 mins initially and seeing how that feels, then titrate up -- some people find they feel jittery initially, or get headaches.

(Also, just like chemical antidepressants, if you're bipolar it can flip you into being manic.)

Some people only ever need 15 mins; some people need longer than 30. You might only need it for a few months a year; some people (like me) use it year-round for non-seasonal depression.

The nice thing is that (unlike most meds) light therapy can have a very rapid effect, so you can adjust it by feel to a large degree. If you feel like you just drank five espressos, you know that was too much time!

Sounds like a recipe for retina damage!

It's not bright enough to cause damage in the short-term, but it is a legit concern whether over a lifetime the extra bright light exposure might conceivably increase the risk of macular degeneration or other problems; research isn't clear on this yet.

However, for context, it's not any brighter in lux than being outdoors on a clear day.

Advice seems to be that if you've got pre-existing eye problems, or are on meds that have a photosensitizing effect, check with a doctor.

The highest risk of eye damage comes from UV light, though, which is why good quality lightboxes (like this one) are UV-free.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: seankenny on January 17, 2023, 12:35:11 pm
So, another dumb question.. how do you use it, practically day to day, as a light box.. 

Do you literally sit staring at it 20cm from your eyes for 30min each morning? 

I absolutely don’t use mine 20cm from my eyes and it has a positive effect. Even on the lowest setting it’s quite bright and I just have it across from the sofa where I have my breakfast.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 17, 2023, 12:50:41 pm
Its Nov/Dec I generally struggle with.

If it's that predictably seasonal, then fingers crossed bright light therapy will really help.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on January 17, 2023, 01:02:20 pm

Cheers guys..  :2thumbsup: I can probably arrange to get on my bedside, then turn it on in the morning and will try 15mins browsing while my better half is in the shower.

Will probably work out well.

Looking forward to getting one at long last.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on January 17, 2023, 06:52:14 pm
With apologies for the dumb question, but could you use this as a desk lamp as well as a light box or is that just the model name?

Yeah, absolutely.  For using it as a lightbox, you want it about 20cm from your eyes. But move it further away, stick the diffuser on it if you want, dim it and/or angle it down as needed, and it's just a nice bright light.

P.S.

Probably obviously -- because it's still a very bright and blue-heavy light, I'd try to avoid using it for anything in the evenings.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SA Chris on June 02, 2023, 05:49:10 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5ssGdiWXac

Frank, honest and slightly uncomfortable to watch. Truth for some behind "living the dream"
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on August 15, 2023, 10:48:10 am
I can't be objective because I suggested one thing and am thus technically a contributor, but anyway, The Sad Bastard Cookbook (subtitle: "Food you can make so you don't die") is free to download:

https://traumbooks.itch.io/the-sad-bastard-cookbook

It contains various ways to get nutrients into your body in the interests of not dying, from people who get why making food when you're depressed or otherwise exhausted can be difficult.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 28, 2023, 02:35:15 pm
Hey guys. I can’t remember who the mental health professionals are on the forum? But if anyone knows anything about DDPT, recognising it or dealing with it, could you pm me?
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on August 28, 2023, 05:52:49 pm
Google tells me the acronym stands for delusional disorder of the persecutory type -- I'm not one of the mental health professionals here and it's not something I know about, but I just wanted to send sympathies because that sounds very rough to deal with.

Als, while Googling I ran into a link to a recent study on a specialist cognitive therapy programme for it which seems (in this trial at least) to be performing way better than the default CBT-for-psychosis. Since I can't resist a citation, here it is, just in case it provides a useful lead for you:

https://www.psych.ox.ac.uk/news/ground-breaking-treatment-offers-new-hope-for-patients-with-persecutory-delusions
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(21)00158-9/fulltext
Also: https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/papt.12421 (a peer research qualitative study of the same trial)
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: stone on September 04, 2023, 08:48:31 am
I thought this BBC R4 series about psychiatry was superb (I'm keen to hear other people's opinions). It probably deserves to be in the podcast recommendations thread but I guess is most relevant here. I really liked the co-presentation by a patient and a psychiatrist together with varied guests. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001h3y5
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on September 20, 2023, 08:31:56 am
Public service announcement: "severe mental illness" is one of the conditions that qualifies you for a Covid booster.

Now, SMI is defined as "schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or any mental illness that causes severe functional impairment", so it's fairly unclear where the cut-off is, if, for example, you have major depressive disorder.

But GPs have been asked to apply "an inclusive approach to defining SMI" ( https://www.england.nhs.uk/blog/if-you-have-a-severe-mental-illness-its-time-to-get-your-covid-19-autumn-booster-vaccination/ ) and there's no shortage of vaccines around at this point, so you're not going to be taking anyone else's spot in the queue.

So it's worth asking your GP (or psychiatrist or other mental health professional) if they think you're crazy enough to qualify.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fiend on September 20, 2023, 09:04:08 am
Can you vouch for me slabs??  ;D

Also do anti-vaxxers / covid-5g loons count as having "severe mental illness"??
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on September 21, 2023, 07:34:14 am
Can you vouch for me slabs??  ;D

Unfortunately my extensive experience of being insane does not qualify me as a mental health professional. Very disappointing.

Also do anti-vaxxers / covid-5g loons count as having "severe mental illness"??

Oi, don't mix us innocent severely mentally ill people up with that lot!  ;D
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on November 04, 2023, 10:19:53 am
I just got some free Moderna for being crazy. So if you're significantly fucked up in the head in a severe and chronic way, it's worth asking!

For context: the reason why this qualifies you for a booster is that there's a documented correlation between severe mental illness and worse outcomes if you get Covid, though it's unknown why.

It may be partly because of the increased incidence of comorbidities like heart disease and diabetes that you also get with SMI, and therefore not a worry if you're not affected by those. But it's also been suggested that various mental illnesses (including depression) involve wonky inflammatory processes, which would mean that the inflammation caused by Covid is being added on top of an existing problem.

Anyway, the correlation exists, so there's a legit reason for getting the booster if you're eligible.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: MarkJ on November 04, 2023, 12:38:19 pm

For context: the reason why this qualifies you for a booster is that there's a documented correlation between severe mental illness and worse outcomes if you get Covid, though it's unknown why.

My explanation would be that both could be explained by low vitamin D. I bought a UV-B sunlamp canopy back in 2008 and it more or less cured my Winter depression ; also I hardly ever catch a cold, since then, & I only had one mild brush with Covid for about 3 days. You can get a home test kit for Vit D and I would strongly recommend doing it.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: stone on November 04, 2023, 01:27:32 pm
It's great that you have sorted out your winter depression and avoided colds etc. Keep it up!

VitD has been said to be involved in a very wide spectrum of diseases. But the huge problem has been that our vitD levels also correlate with a host of other factors that influence disease (various aspects of social deprivation and lifestyle etc). I found it interesting that Mendelian Randomisation studies using UK Biobank data drew a blank for a connection between vitD and a variety of diseases. That seemed to me a great way of definitively testing whether vitD was actually the culprit. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-80655-w

The sunlamp might be doing something other than vitD. A whole host of things get changed by sunlight don't they?

PS: This link is a great explainer about Mendelian Randomisation as a method https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-021-01173-3
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: seankenny on November 04, 2023, 06:00:35 pm
My explanation would be that both could be explained by low vitamin D. I bought a UV-B sunlamp canopy back in 2008 and it more or less cured my Winter depression ; also I hardly ever catch a cold, since then, & I only had one mild brush with Covid for about 3 days.

I use a sun lamp and it definitely keeps winter depression at bay. However it doesn’t do a thing for my long covid, nor the original and repeat covid infections I’ve had.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Wellsy on November 04, 2023, 06:13:53 pm
I've always struggled a bit more with brain stuff in the winter tbh
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: shurt on November 04, 2023, 09:32:07 pm
I have got rid of depression using Vit D supplements. Been taking high dose every day for a while now. I had problems whatever the season since being a teenager but no more. As other people.

I think it helps that I am not drinking anywhere nearly as heavily as I did from 17-late 30s. Having said that even if I get drunk these days I don't have the horror hangover the next day anymore.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: stone on November 04, 2023, 09:48:27 pm
That study of UK biobank data looked at thousands of people who differed in their body vitD levels not because of diet or sun exposure but because of genetic differences in vitD metabolism etc.

They looked for an effect of vitD on mental illness but there didn't seem to be one.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on November 15, 2023, 08:13:45 am
If anyone's considering a lightbox at this time of year, Lumie have a flash sale for the next 24 hours:

https://www.lumie.com/shop/sad-and-energy-lights

You want 10,000 lux for a solid effect, so check the distance at which you get that.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: Fultonius on November 15, 2023, 01:14:53 pm
Thanks Slab, been meaning to buy one for years. This year's been extra tough (coming from 2 months in central Europe to darkest, dankest Glasgow). The alarm one ticks another box I'd hoped to tick for years.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: petejh on November 15, 2023, 05:49:55 pm
I've owned one of their 'brazil' ones for years, it's mega! Using the lightbox for 15mins while having breakfast makes a drab 7am November morning feel like summer. I don't suffer depression but I can sometimes feel a bit of lethargy coming on this time of year and find it harder to maintain my usual sleep/wake rhythm. A few days using the lightbox seems to help get rid of that feeling.
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: SamT on November 16, 2023, 05:19:28 pm
+one.

I got a refurbed Lumie Desklamp last year in a sale advertised on this thead last year. (thanks slab happy!!)
If anyone's thinking about a lightbox, btw, this is the one I've got and you can currently get a refurbished one for 40% off:
https://www.lumie.com/products/desklamp-sad-light-refurbished
It's a handy one because, as well as lightbox-ing, you can bend it down and use it as a task light for any craft activities.

This is the first winter I've ever used one.  Half an hour in the morning with it upright and pointing at me on my desk at work, then I just fold it down and its tucked away.  Whilst I cant specifically say its directly down to the SAD lamp, but my mood is generally pretty good at the moment, which is the first November in decades that I can say that with confidence.
 ;D
Title: Re: The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day
Post by: slab_happy on November 17, 2023, 05:32:09 pm
That's excellent to hear, whether it's the lightbox or not!
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