Report just in. William Bosi has done Brandenburg :jaw::dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1:
Report just in. William Bosi has done Brandenburg :jaw::dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1:
Great stuff.
A separate news item surely?
I happened to see it yes looked relatively casual.
Yes it was a stroke of luck for Will.
I've heard of this project over the years, but for those of us that aren't peak lime officianados, could someone give some cobtext/pictures/stories as to why this is so significant?
Any indication as to whether it will still be called Brandenburg Gate? Surely as the first ascentionist Will now has the right to call it what he wants.
Please tell me it finishes up 30 and then 18 and goes to the top of the crag?
What's 28 on the topo? That looks like the straightest line to finish 26!
Holy cow!Insane AND inane, ideally!
Cue insane grade debates.
It's famous because it's at Raven Tor, it's really hard and it's been tried by lots of wads over the years. Most notably Gaskins had some really good burns on it but was never quite able to seal the deal.
Great that this has been done as it pretty much closes the Raven Tor book. I saw Gaskins try it a lot in 2002 as I did MiF that summer so was right next to him. Most eagerly anticipated 1* route ever?It's famous because it's at Raven Tor, it's really hard and it's been tried by lots of wads over the years. Most notably Gaskins had some really good burns on it but was never quite able to seal the deal.
Not sure anyone really tried it apart from Gaskins? Don't know who put the bolts in.
To be fair everyone at the crag was taken to the Anglers and BoB threw the credit card behind the bar. Madness. It was like the scenes in the Fat cat after Vickers and Fliss won the Foundry Open in 93.
To be fair everyone at the crag was taken to the Anglers and BoB threw the credit card behind the bar. Madness. It was like the scenes in the Fat cat after Vickers and Fliss won the Foundry Open in 93.
Not sure anyone really tried it apart from Gaskins? Don't know who put the bolts in.
What was Gaskins like on it?
What was Gaskins like on it?
On the moves through the stepped roofs he was mostly pulling on then falling straight off again when I saw him. He was doing bigger links above that (the remaining 2 - 3 moves into MiF). Others saw him do more on it I think.
Tbf that is pretty cool if true.
This is the first time I've actually seen a topo of the Tor. It puts the whole "Gaskins was three moves from easy ground" thing in a different light - that's a third of the route by my eye.
I'm a bit gutted to discover that this is what BG looks like. I'd envisaged a steep wall of non-existent holds soaring up and out of sight.
To be fair everyone at the crag was taken to the Anglers and BoB threw the credit card behind the bar. Madness. It was like the scenes in the Fat cat after Vickers and Fliss won the Foundry Open in 93.
Holy cow!Insane AND inane, ideally!
Cue insane grade debates.
I wonder how many stars this kingest of king line LGPs will get...
If Bosi does not credit his nutritionist and ballet teacher I will unsubscribe
Having witnessed the ascent I’m going with 9a+/b and I’m not accepting any comments on my post. When he got to the Mecca flake he brewed up using a gas cylinder left there by El mocho. Peppermint apparently
Not being familiar with the Tor, why would you not finish up Mega Whore? From the topo that looks the best line.
There isn't any logical reason to finish at the Mecca belay. I'm sure it is only because there is actually a belay there. When I was trying MIF and replacing some of the old bolts I did consider installing an alternative belay on some really good jugs up the line of 28 horizontal to the number 30 on that topo.
Wow :icon_beerchug:
Everyone can stop now, that's rock climbing completed.
Looks like 9a+ is the grade, and footage available tomorrow morning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqoVQxpYwlw
That’s hilarious. Clipping the chains and celebrating after 4 bolts of climbing with the rest of the crag towering above him disappearing off into the distance… :lol:
What a funny sport.
That’s hilarious. Clipping the chains and celebrating after 4 bolts of climbing with the rest of the crag towering above him disappearing off into the distance… :lol:
What a funny sport.
It's almost as if given marginal strength gains post Moon/Smith technique has actually improved. I did think there was no way Gaskins would have used that high heel, although maybe Ru is suggesting he did?This is my reading of the last twenty years. Strength has gone up a bit, technique (and endurance) has gone up quite a lot.
I have the impression that the best climbers in the early 90s did things with absolutely bonkers sequences because they were bad at climbing. That's why they only did 8c/9a despite having 9c strength.
Just seen the video. Looks like a totally logical sequence but being fair to Gaskins it’s nothing like how he was trying it. John was trying a sequence that involved gastoning the right hand side pull with his left hand to get a very poor undercut in the roof with his right hand. From there the three crux moves were reaching to the undercut on the lip of the next roof, but taking it as a down pointing pinch, matching that, reaching to the pocket above with left hand, flipping right hand to an undercut and from there the same sequence as Will does. Might have been a height thing as the reach to the pocket from the sidepull looks like it might be a stretch, or might just have been a case of missing the obvious.In my experience from trying and often failing to climb new things, it's very easy to get lost in over-complex or just plain bad sequences when you're too weak to climb the sequence which actually works if you have the guns.
I have the impression that the best climbers in the early 90s did things with absolutely bonkers sequences because they were bad at climbing.
Fantastic footage
Let’s not get giddy.
And its nothing to do with technique, climbers are way stronger than the top boys were in the 90s. Much much stronger.
Let’s not get giddy.
I assume you're being deliberately hyperbolic. It's obviously not an either/or. Both have increased and neither has an agreed on means of measuring relative advancement. So to a great extent it's a matter of opinion which type of improvement you see as being more instrumental in grade advancements. You've obviously pinned your colours to the strength mast to the exclusion of technique being a relevant factor. Having climbed with lots of people way better and way stronger than me for decades I've seen significant gains in both general technique and strength. And I do think yesterday's climbers would have achieved more with a little better technique than today's climbers would with a little extra strength.
And its nothing to do with technique, climbers are way stronger than the top boys were in the 90s. Much much stronger.
This might help the Tor-uninitiated:
(https://i.imgur.com/xoZ8e1B.jpeg)
4. Indecent Exposure, 7c
7. The Full Monty, 7c+
10. Body Machine, 7c+
13. An In & Out of Body Experience, 8a
14. Body Builder, 8a+
15. The Prow, 8a
16. The Crucifixion, 8a
17. Proud Whore, 7c+
18. Brazen Strumpet, 8a
19. Jehovakill, 8b+
20. Revelations, 8b
21. Rage, 8b
22. Anger Management, 8a+
23. Rage into Crucifixion, 8b
24. Hubble, 9a
25. The Whore of Babylon, A0/ 8a
26. Brandenburg Gate, 9a+
27. Make it Funky, 8c
28. Mega Whore, 8c
29. Mecca, 8b+
30. Mecca Extension, 8c
31. The Hajj, 8c
32. Kaaba, 8c+
34. Stevolution, 9a
IMO, I think the logical thing should have been to take the line as high up as it can go (25-30m). Being the first ascensionist and having that climbing ability, it seems a missed opportunity to make Brandenburg Gate a longer/better and possibly more sustained route.
You what? He's just climbed a 2m bit of rock.
...
Doesn't it go higher?
Wouldn't you just go up to the next blob?
He's so low they could have passed his sandwiches up to him.
I'm annoyed that you made me watch that.
I've just shown the footage to Daisy and the verdict is as follows:QuoteYou what? He's just climbed a 2m bit of rock.
...
Doesn't it go higher?
After I showed her the topo and explained about Mecca Extension etc:QuoteWouldn't you just go up to the next blob?
He's so low they could have passed his sandwiches up to him.
I'm annoyed that you made me watch that.
I love this woman.
IMO, I think the logical thing should have been to take the line as high up as it can go (25-30m). Being the first ascensionist and having that climbing ability, it seems a missed opportunity to make Brandenburg Gate a longer/better and possibly more sustained route.
Re: lack of strength gains since the 90's. Were people 1 arming edges with 20-30kg in their other hand back then?
edit: it seems they all concentrate a lot more on mobility these days too, especially the comp climbers.
I saw an interview with Alex Huber, who did a very early 9a+ thanks to singular focus on training and should be in a good position to know, that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength. Maybe it is self-serving mythologising, but I do not get that impression.
that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength.
Michael Hawkins still holds the Kilnsey Crag Race record, unbroken since 1982. I have no idea if that's relevant to the discussion :tumble:that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength.I find that hard to believe. Maybe they haven't got much/any stronger, but why in spite of ever improving training knowledge would everyone have failed to get close?
Without some actual numbers I'd be very skeptical. It's just way too easy to look back at these things with rose tinted glasses (Im as guilty of this as anyone).
it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.
I assume you're being deliberately hyperbolic. It's obviously not an either/or. Both have increased and neither has an agreed on means of measuring relative advancement. So to a great extent it's a matter of opinion which type of improvement you see as being more instrumental in grade advancements. You've obviously pinned your colours to the strength mast to the exclusion of technique being a relevant factor. Having climbed with lots of people way better and way stronger than me for decades I've seen significant gains in both general technique and strength. And I do think yesterday's climbers would have achieved more with a little better technique than today's climbers would with a little extra strength.
And its nothing to do with technique, climbers are way stronger than the top boys were in the 90s. Much much stronger.
Re: lack of strength gains since the 90's. Were people 1 arming edges with 20-30kg in their other hand back then?
edit: it seems they all concentrate a lot more on mobility these days too, especially the comp climbers.
I saw an interview with Alex Huber, who did a very early 9a+ thanks to singular focus on training and should be in a good position to know, that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength. Maybe it is self-serving mythologising, but I do not get that impression.
Rose tinted specs. Todays wads are another notch up. Megos did AD in how many goes?
The sport is a little more mature now though so the gaps dont look as big on paper.
Other than the new school heels, knees and compression....I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.
Megos is a lot better climber than Güllich ever was. Look at any video of Wolfgang climbing if you have doubts. Stronger? I am far from convinced.
My point in the other thread is that you can't afford to be lacking in either nowadays. I think in the 90s particularly advances in technique lagged behind advances in strength somewhat, which is totally understandable given the types of training that had just been developed. There were brilliant technicians but they arguably tended to not also be the very strongest climbers. Now the top climbers are undoubtedly both.QuoteOther than the new school heels, knees and compression....I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.
Megos is a lot better climber than Güllich ever was. Look at any video of Wolfgang climbing if you have doubts. Stronger? I am far from convinced.
Im sure Megos is pretty technically good, but AD took him 2 hours whereas it took Wolfgang 11 days. Maybe Wolfgang was stronger in some very particular ways, but I really struggle to think of him as a stronger climber overall.
it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.
IMO the best routes always start at the bottom and go to the top. Occasional exceptions exist for rock quality, vegetation etc. At least this one is at the tor, so it was never going to be one of the best anyway! Obvious finish from the Mecca chains would be up Hajj, which while relatively easy for Will, would still be dropable (I guess comparable to doing a short 8b to a big jug then having a 7c+ headwall to put on top - you shouldn't drop it, and it maybe doesn't change the grade, but it still adds spice)
it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.
IMO the best routes always start at the bottom and go to the top. Occasional exceptions exist for rock quality, vegetation etc. At least this one is at the tor, so it was never going to be one of the best anyway! Obvious finish from the Mecca chains would be up Hajj, which while relatively easy for Will, would still be dropable (I guess comparable to doing a short 8b to a big jug then having a 7c+ headwall to put on top - you shouldn't drop it, and it maybe doesn't change the grade, but it still adds spice)
This, 100%.
The idea of stopping when the difficulty eases just makes no sense, I don't care how hard the overall climb is. To compare with say Malham, many of the routes off the catwalk are quite short, but they stop when the difficulty significantly increases, not the other way round. Stopping at a decrease is nothing but a cop out.
I suspect what's really happening with Jerry's comment is that he and others may have worried they'd fall off if they carried on, but if so it's not so easy then is it!
Fair enough to Will for simply climbing what was the original vision, but if I were him I'd be straight back there to take it to the top of the crag. Frankly it's a bit embarrasing for British climbing that this clutch of some of our hardest routes finish in such a poor way, Mutation being the obvious exception, and Evolution as well given the extensions to that do add significant difficulty.
Looks like 9a+ is the grade, and footage available tomorrow morning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqoVQxpYwlwMagnificent. Despite all the armchair negativity in this thread.
Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.
Reading Steve's diary entries and listening to the interview with Will it seems pretty clear that Mutation is an outlier in terms of conditions dependent difficulty. Clearly both climbers would have ticked the route a good deal sooner if they'd got the (rare) conditions window. I don't think it can really be held up to prove technical ability hasn't advanced much, any more than it can be used as proof that modern climbers are light years ahead in terms if strength.My point in the other thread is that you can't afford to be lacking in either nowadays. I think in the 90s particularly advances in technique lagged behind advances in strength somewhat, which is totally understandable given the types of training that had just been developed. There were brilliant technicians but they arguably tended to not also be the very strongest climbers. Now the top climbers are undoubtedly both.QuoteOther than the new school heels, knees and compression....I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.
A bit like that old school route mutation that Will just took 40 days on. Needs to get working on his technique.
Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.
Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.
Jerry needs his eyes tested if he thinks that's the obvious place to finish
Possibly of further interest, here’s the topo from the 1969 guide.
(https://i.ibb.co/q76dbqp/9982-B244-2-C24-4-A4-B-AB1-E-18-D8-F9733-FC4.jpg)
1. Koran, HVS
2. Hubris, A3
3. Prow Route, A3
4. Brandenburg Gate, A2
5. Mecca, A2
6. Bolt Route, A2
7. Sardine, A3
8. Girdle Traverse, A2
Amazing. Now he's got the tick, surely the linkups are the obvious choice.
I'm presuming - looking at the footage - that the first draw was clipped and climbed down from. It certainly looked clippable. (Edit. Yep, watching again, easy peasy.)
If not, then I'd still call that an aided ascent.
Presumably those faint lines between 5 and 6 represent Shark in what would 30 years later become Ben's Roof.
Interesting reading the comments above about the route finishing half way up the cliff, and then seeing the clip from a new 9b just put up at Margalef (link from the other channel's latest 'ticklist' article)
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CV0uck_D846/?utm_source=ig_embed
We are not alone! In this Margalef example the guy is also open that he is still working the route above. It seems strange to me that he has claimed a route at the point he got to, but maybe that's the local ethics.
Dave I hope you were making a jokeI'm presuming - looking at the footage - that the first draw was clipped and climbed down from. It certainly looked clippable. (Edit. Yep, watching again, easy peasy.)
If not, then I'd still call that an aided ascent.
Coincidentally, the replacement for the Hubble telescope (launched 1990) called the Jimmy Webb Space Telescope (yes, really) is due to be launched next month. Meanwhile, 3m to the right at Raven Tor….
haha, I can think of worse names! 8)"Spunk-up lier Ted" is one possible anagram! :blink:
You lot are taking this cack far too seriously.
Is it Mutation? Or Mutations?
Is it Mutation? Or Mutations?
Singular
Will uploaded footage of Persian Dawn.
He must be close to ticking the whole crag now. Does anyone know how close he is?!
He must be close to ticking the whole crag now. Does anyone know how close he is?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot