UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: tallsop on September 06, 2009, 04:31:13 pm
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Hi, has anyone done 'Nefertiti' at burbage? i was tryin to come in from the nose on the left like the original line but i think the holds (pebbles) for your hands under the overhanging bit hav be knocked off? defo feels harder than 6c now. were there pebbles ther before or was i just havin a crap day??? cheers, tom
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Have spotted someone on it. Slightly committing undercut with your right on that nose to reach over for a pocket with your left, then shouldery rock rightwards into the break? Don't remember any pebbles.
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Had a probe at this one time a few years ago. I think I might remember vaugely undercurring the nose then swinging right into the scoop where there are poorish crimps in the break, then trying to rock up to the next break above and more poor crimps. As Tiberius Brickstocking said, no recollection of crimps. It wasn't living end style stuff, so it's probably just a matter of getting the sequence.
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There's a tickmark below the break on this that I could see from the valley path, is that necessary?
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pulled through the crux on this years ago to find the break covered in sand resulting in imediate lob. good job its safe! if theres a tick mark on it hopefully somebody cleaned it :)
there was nothing involving pulling on pebbles
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cool, wasnt sure how high up to start! yeah i cleaned the top break, it was absolutely filthy, green an wet!
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Tried this yesterday with El Mocho. He did it, I didn't. Crux for anyone under six foot seems to be the first move - from the gully Ben did a nasty match on the break where the arete meets the roof, then a nastier reach right to the pocket/ good bit of the break.
undercut with your right on that nose to reach over for a pocket with your left
Please tell me you didn't manage that whilst stood on the ledge?
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spotted brown on it who did the start a few times b4 committing to the upper lock betwixt breaks. he didn't seem to find the bottom particularly tricky tho tbh i can't remember the precise sequence.
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Bizarre, we must have missed something. Ben breezed up the top once he got through the start. I reserve the right to fail to do the same though...
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Tried this yesterday with El Mocho. He did it, I didn't. Crux for anyone under six foot seems to be the first move - from the gully Ben did a nasty match on the break where the arete meets the roof, then a nastier reach right to the pocket/ good bit of the break.
undercut with your right on that nose to reach over for a pocket with your left
Please tell me you didn't manage that whilst stood on the ledge?
was up there with tallsop on the day.the first sections desperot if ure four foot fuck all.a pebble has deffinatley broke which would not nessacitate the initial reach off the undercut to the break as you could slink right through the scoop at no change in grade.said pebble would have been an obvious choice off foothold for the upper wall.havin said that it does go without.
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Is this not a solo!!! thought it pretty straight forward..
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Bizarre, we must have missed something. Ben breezed up the top once he got through the start. I reserve the right to fail to do the same though...
on the start don't you pull on from that rock embedded in the floor?
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You can do, pulling on from the floor is straightforward though. Its the next move that's the problem, whether you go direct or come in from the left.
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Is this not a solo!!! thought it pretty straight forward..
yeah, course its a solo - wind ur neck in mate
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idol eyes! if u gona solo this let us all know CAUSE THAT WOULD BE MIGHTY FUCKIN IMPPRESSIVE TO WATCH.Do you value your legs,knees.ankles,life?
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Err, I think everyone so far has been talking about soloing/ highballing. What are you on about?
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I think there may be a Nosferatu/Nefertiti confusion situation.
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I'd consider that a solo as well.
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so its a solo?? despite the mention of pre-placed gear in all the guidebooks its in? Can we please just leave the bravado bullshit out of this??? I just wanted to know how the bloody thing starts!
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.
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Pre-placed gear on a 20ft 'E6'? Its 2009 not 1992. Next you'll be telling me you've done it on a toprope and are considering a headpoint. Stick a couple of pads underneath and get on with it.
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I think it was done originally with side-runners, i suspect baby-bouncers, at E5 6c. It is possible to place small gear around where happy Ever After is, but it's all a bit fiddly and not massively inspiring even on HEA where it is very close for the crux. on Nefertiti it would be a lot further away. The burbage guide gives it E6 6c, but also says that it was 'originally climbed with side-runners, it now makes a fine, scary highball'.
To be honest it might be safer as a highball. I really don't know of anyone doing it as a lead since JA. Having said that I bet it's still quite high. I know I bottled it.
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I know Welford did it, told me it was easy so i went for a go, fell off before getting to above my mat, twatted my ankle, haven't been back, cant remember any pebbles.
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e6!its got a bit of meat.solo or not this is a good effort.pads or not,font or e?92 or2009?whatever.if u have done it did u enjoy it?think thats the main thing .personanally found it nails at four foot fuck all.but enjoyed tryinging.i soloed angles share at black rocks(above a fuck load of pads)but found nerfertiti desperate.jb can u explain this?
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personally mr long, (JB) i think ur elitist attidude stinks and u should be more suportive and more accepting of other peoples abilities and enjoyment of climbing. routes are lead/soloed/top roped by choice, with regards to the persons personal goals, motivations and aspirations. who are you too say how i should climb a route? people have different stimuli/ motivations and everybody should respect that. as long as climbers are having fun, surely thats all that matters??
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Look Tallsop, chill out dude. People have actually been trying to give you some useful info on this route.
Can we send this thread to the shit heap? It's annoying.
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Pre-placed gear on a 20ft 'E6'? Its 2009 not 1992. Next you'll be telling me you've done it on a toprope and are considering a headpoint. Stick a couple of pads underneath and get on with it.
He shoots .... He scores.
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Woefull.... feel sorry for some of the folk on this thread/forum/crag/planet?....
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Can we send this thread to the shit heap? It's annoying.
Now known as "The Log Pile" I believe.
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>as long as climbers are having fun, surely thats all that matters??
No.
I've seen climbers having fun kicking pebbles out of routes on top rope, frigging up fragile flakes and breaking them in the process, wire brushing soft sandstone etc. etc.
Like the man said, this is 2009 not 1992.
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Fair play, im gettin pretty annoyed too (which worries me - very sad), but maybe someone should write some kind of '2009 rule book' for climbing in the peaks as im not sure anymore what im 'allowed' to do as i seem to be reading from the 92 text apparently? ive personally never seen anyone do route in this style hennce my obvious lack of understanding. is headpointing not allowed anymore? kicking off pebbles??? - im sure you lot ave kicked off your share, everyones guilty of it. Wire brush? - never owned one! i apprecciate the 'useful' advice on the route i was given, thanks
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F*ck this shit ( Christ, how off topic is this?)
look, you can TR and headpoint without trashing the route.
This current * back to ground up* stuff has much milage, is the ultimate grit outcrop style and is to be applauded.
If you are a good climber.. As is respectful to the sport, rock
and are honest quite frankly I don't give one with regards to the pre practice you do.
When that affects the rock... Then you are doing it wrong.
Back in the day I did near every E6 at Millstone in 18 months.. I TRed damn near all 1st
those that have since OSed them have done a far more impressive feat.
But I managed not to trash anything...
Climbers can be their worst enemies.
Just respect the scarce resource, enjoy the rock for what it is, ans give respect for achievement.
- rant over -
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ive personally never seen anyone do route in this style hennce my obvious lack of understanding.
you need to set up some kind of CCTV shit or summert then, or hang around it a bit more.
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maybe someone should write some kind of '2009 rule book' for climbing in the peaks
Allow me. Rule 1: it's "peak" not "peaks".
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christ..
this happens about once a year..
I agree with dave.
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Just as well its only once a year because it sure didn't make any sense!
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reckon tallsops got a point!climbing in whatever style is about fun(or at least should be).maybe we should all remeber that.its easy to get all fired up when ure passionate(as we all are)."peaks"peak" ive lived ere all me life and eard both many a time.as a local born and bread im not massively offended."cofe"as regards the cctv i reckon thats game on.maybe it would help with much needed betta."grimma"whens that chatsworth guide out!?
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might i add, im also a local born and bred, ill call it wot i chuffin want son ;)
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ive lived ere all me life
im also a local born and bred
all the more reason to get it right then.
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i'm pretty sure those two are the same person.
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Could have just had the same English teacher :-\.
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grimma"whens that chatsworth guide out!?
A little bit after you respond to the personal message i sent you :)
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Could have just had the same English teacher :-\.
woteva.
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listen.we aint the same person!and as far as i know we didnt av the same teacher.sorry"grimer"for the spelling mistake.dislexia aint a gift more of a curse.comment about the guide was certainly not a dig,ive seen u out and about grimer ,and from what i understand ure doin a sterling job.lookin forward to checkin out the guide whenever its ready.now cofe ,when u installin this cctv?can we ave a camera overlookin superman?
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Sorry, I just fail to believe that every lazy (i.e. can't be bothered to use a spell checker) ignorant (I expect you to try to translate what I have to say) fecker is 'dislexic'.
Try using a spell checker, try writing in 'grown up' not some bastard teenage txtspk.
Although no expert on the subject I have known and worked with people with dyslexia and none of them would ever type such utter drivel.
Yours not feeling too charitable
Sloepr
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i'm pretty sure those two are the same person.
You never see them in the same forum at the same time.
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There's also the grammar. You've used full stops to separate sentences, but failed to remember that you leave a space after the end of a sentence and the next word and also capitalise the first letter of the first word of a new sentence. This is a simple rule that could easily be applied irrespective of any other spelling issues (i.e. "I've just typed a period '.', I must hit the space-bar twice and hold down shift when typing the next character).
I don't know how it stacks up but would have thought typing removes some of the confusion from dyslexia being that the letters on the usual QWERTY keyboard are all over the place to begin with, and you also have to generally spell each and every word as you type (supposedly the lay out is derived in part from the frequency with which each letter is used, and when touch typing this is to an extent true).
There are some very useful typing tutors out there (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=windows+free+typing+tutor). I sat down and went through several years ago when I was doing menial offices jobs so I could improve the clarity and speed with which I post shit on internet forums. This skill has served me well. :P
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(i.e. "I've just typed a period '.', I must hit the space-bar twice once and hold down shift when typing the next character).
Sorry, that's the copy editor in me. ;)
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(i.e. "I've just typed a period '.', I must hit the space-bar twice once and hold down shift when typing the next character).
Sorry, that's the copy editor in me. ;)
whats his name?
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derek the dog nobbler.
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Derek you say?
Anyway, I was always of the view that it should be two spaces after a full stop, not one.
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cheers for the tips.shall put some effort into improving my computer litracy.
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good start.
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https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3366
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nice one. ;)
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(i.e. "I've just typed a period '.', I must hit the space-bar twice once and hold down shift when typing the next character).
Sorry, that's the copy editor in me. ;)
Too nu-skool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_spacing_at_the_end_of_sentences) for me.
(Personally I use TeX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_spacing_at_the_end_of_sentences#TeX) (well a variant called LaTeX (http://www.latex-project.org/)) which automagically increases the space above a single space following periods so not something I ever really have to worry about when writing papers).
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Back in the day I did near every E6 at Millstone in 18 months.. I TRed damn near all 1st
But I managed not to trash anything...
Not even your finger-tips? 'Effort!
What did you make of Adam Smith Jon?
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Adam smiths has some of the best moves on the crag.
Word.
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i was hoping for a tad more although that's encouraging. Did you have much confidence in the gear, I forget what it is exactly.. threaded tats and an old peg? Thanks
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preplaced wires over the back of the bolt studs.
didnt fall... reckon now with a few pads, esp one of my airpads :P, you could sequentially rip all the gear and come to no harm off the crux... knees at level of top bolt, you turn the arete by way of a slap up to a brick shaped pinch and then balance over. a move never to forget.
the top peg is a swine to clip. I did the route the same week as Mike Lee, he had kindly replaced the tat on the peg for those of us with a less then average height.
BTW, this was in excess of 15 years ago... the bolts may be well well shite by now.
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See routes cleaned thread pages 2 and 3:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,9392.25.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,9392.25.html)
Pretty sure I replaced the tat on the peg too, don't remember it being much of a stretch to clip so must have either put equally long tat on or climbed a bit higher (I am just like Mike Lee. Short, strong and only do headpointing now as I have a kid ;))
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I am just like Mike Lee
Never thought I'd see anyone admit that in public.
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Dan fell on one of the wired bolt heads when a hold snapped off. It held, this was over 10 years ago though and I'm guessing their condition hasn't improved...
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I am just like Mike Lee
Never thought I'd see anyone admit that in public.
me too, may i offer my sincere condolences
( ;) )
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is that Mike Lee, the 2004 PBR World Champion, 2004 PBR World Finals Champion , 2005 PBR Challenger Tour Finals Champion bull rider?
http://www.mikeleebullrider.com/ (http://www.mikeleebullrider.com/)
or Mike Lea the strong short climber?
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Thanks for the answers guys particularly your account of the crux Jon. I haven't been to Millstone for something like 10 years hence the questions but it always looked a great route and I vaguely remember the pinch featue and overlap with peg etc. Doesn't sound too practical to just 'have a look' if you need to preplace wires tho.
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I have a strong feeling we know eachother from a previous life.
Give me a PM and I'll gladly discuss the route further.
To be fair, this ain't our thread
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I replaced the tat on the bolts so no need to pre place wires. Just clip the tat.
There is a Mike Lee who climbs? Sorry, bull riding is my area of expertise, am I on the wrong website? Thought this was UKbull. Def seems like it when you read some of the posts.
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That would have been a more appropriate name for the red-tits website.
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Thought this was UKbull. Def seems like it when you read some of the posts.
you'll have to forgive sloper
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might i add, im also a local born and bred, ill call it wot i chuffin want son ;)
"Theres nothing for you here!!!"
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There is a Mike Lee who climbs? Sorry, bull riding is my area of expertise, am I on the wrong website? Thought this was UKbull. Def seems like it when you read some of the posts.
:lol:
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personally mr long, (JB) i think ur elitist attidude stinks and u should be more suportive and more accepting of other peoples abilities and enjoyment of climbing. routes are lead/soloed/top roped by choice, with regards to the persons personal goals, motivations and aspirations. who are you too say how i should climb a route? people have different stimuli/ motivations and everybody should respect that. as long as climbers are having fun, surely thats all that matters??
Personally mr Sop, you should be a lot more sodding grateful that someone like Adam is standing up for quality climbing experiences and treating routes with respect (all under the banner of good ethics) and encouraging you to do the same. If you had some nouse you'd try to learn from that and trying to learn to improve so you can approach these climbs as equals rather than trying to work them (and by "them" I mean well-sub-cutting edge routes that are regularly onsighted / ground-upped) into submission. Just seen your UKC logbook - says it all - have you considered actual climbing rather than serial top-roping??
+1 vote for The Log Pile.
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Just seen your UKC logbook - says it all - have you considered actual climbing rather than serial top-roping??
Just read this ressurected thread and being a bit bored and feeling like a bit of rubbernecking, I checked out the UKC logbook too. Oh my god, I have never seen such nonsense. Sorry if this sounds bad, condescending and like we're getting the boot in, but Tallsop you really need to think about your approach to climbing. Your logbook shows you failing to onsight low E grades yet constantly attempting to toprope E5/E6/E7/E8. I honestly thought it was a bit of a myth that there were people out there trying to toprope stuff way, way beyond their capabilities. A best onsight of E1 and best worked grade of E6? Nonsense.
Again, apologies for having a dig (and probably sounding like a patronising tw*t) but just as Fiend has pointed out, the advice contained within this thread is very pertinent and I think that if you just chilled out, stopped trying to thrash your way up various testpieces you'd a) become a better climber and b) achieve more.
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Just seen your UKC logbook - says it all - have you considered actual climbing rather than serial top-roping??
Just read this ressurected thread and being a bit bored and feeling like a bit of rubbernecking, I checked out the UKC logbook too. Oh my god, I have never seen such nonsense. Sorry if this sounds bad, condescending and like we're getting the boot in, but Tallsop you really need to think about your approach to climbing. Your logbook shows you failing to onsight low E grades yet constantly attempting to toprope E5/E6/E7/E8. I honestly thought it was a bit of a myth that there were people out there trying to toprope stuff way, way beyond their capabilities. A best onsight of E1 and best worked grade of E6? Nonsense.
Again, apologies for having a dig (and probably sounding like a patronising tw*t) but just as Fiend has pointed out, the advice contained within this thread is very pertinent and I think that if you just chilled out, stopped trying to thrash your way up various testpieces you'd a) become a better climber and b) achieve more.
Nefertiti (or spelling variations thereof) aren't in the wishlist either!
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Incidentally has anyone else had a play on the supposed direct start to the right? Ok to get stood up in the break but it seems a very long way to the poor pocket. Anyone?
Ohh yeah and ground up is the only way to do routes like this and maintain any personal credibility.
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Your logbook shows you failing to onsight low E grades yet constantly attempting to toprope E5/E6/E7/E8. I honestly thought it was a bit of a myth that there were people out there trying to toprope stuff way, way beyond their capabilities.
when was the last time you felt inspired/strong and spied a line you were almost certain you could do but didn't fancy two broken legs?(accepted some of the nurses at the hallemshire are tidy)i'd bet a pound to a penny climbing on grit wouldn't be where it is today were it not for the humble top rope.i accept styles of accent have moved forward and the use of mats allows us to try routes in a purer style, but come on cards on the table i bet 90% of people posting on her are guilty of the odd cheeky top rope at some point in there climbing career.
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when was the last time you felt inspired/strong and spied a line you were almost certain you could do but didn't fancy two broken legs?(accepted some of the nurses at the hallemshire are tidy)i'd bet a pound to a penny climbing on grit wouldn't be where it is today were it not for the humble top rope.i accept styles of accent have moved forward and the use of mats allows us to try routes in a purer style, but come on cards on the table i bet 90% of people posting on her are guilty of the odd cheeky top rope at some point in there climbing career.
Ok so I'll bite that.
An odd cheeky toprope? Have you actually seen the logbook in question? Best onsight E1 but repeatedly trying E7's on a toprope, get a grip this is way beyond "having a look" at a harder climb because you're dead keen and want to get better. Most of the listed ascents in the logbook are topropes. Anyway, enough said I'll p*ss off and stop grumbling now.
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hey guys, all fair comments. I cant beleive people are still posting on this thread!
Firstly,id like to apologise to mr long, the comments in question were written after quite a few pints, and i tend to get a bit (unjustly) uppety about things when that happens! Adam is an extraordinary talent, and i respect his ethical practises.
Yes, my logbook sucks, and im quite aware that my head isnt where my body is at the moment. if you would have looked more closely at my lobook and wish list, you would perhaps notice that a) i have been doinng lots of bouldering lately, so i can become better, stronger and more confident in my ability b)i have started to try and do some hard/safe/falloffable routes ground up, and c) that the majority of routes on my wish list are routes with good gear, and are generally groundupable.
This is (ill be honest)partly as a result of this despute, and as a result of me becoming bored of top roping, ive realised lately that if i do something on a top rope, i dont really feel like/see the point in leading it.
I also noticed that by spending last year toproping, i never seemed to get anything led, out of like twenty/thirty routes that i top roped, i only led 2! so yeah, that was a bit of a wake-up-call.
Once again, adam - i sincerely apoligise for my comments,and i completely withdraw them.
i alo promise never to leave a tick mark on a problem again (i even cleaned three off T-crack yesterday!!! - my present to you ;)) and as an eternal good will gesture, i vow to clean off at least one tick mark each time i go out :)
happy crankin, much love, The piss artist formerly known as Tom 'TR' Allsop :spank:
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i'd bet a pound to a penny climbing on grit wouldn't be where it is today were it not for the humble top rope.
To be fair I doubt the history of gritstone climbing owes much to the serial toproping by aspirant E1 leaders. Not since the 1940s anyway.
Anyway good to see a decent reply there by tallsop.
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Nice one Tallsop.
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Yes, my logbook sucks, and im quite aware that my head isnt where my body is at the moment. if you would have looked more closely at my lobook and wish list, you would perhaps notice that a) i have been doinng lots of bouldering lately, so i can become better, stronger and more confident in my ability b)i have started to try and do some hard/safe/falloffable routes ground up, and c) that the majority of routes on my wish list are routes with good gear, and are generally groundupable.
This is (ill be honest)partly as a result of this despute, and as a result of me becoming bored of top roping, ive realised lately that if i do something on a top rope, i dont really feel like/see the point in leading it.
I also noticed that by spending last year toproping, i never seemed to get anything led, out of like twenty/thirty routes that i top roped, i only led 2! so yeah, that was a bit of a wake-up-call.
I take it all back. Nicely articulated, keep it up and I'm sure you'll feel that you're achieving more. You're obviously enjoying onsighting/ground upping more than toproping, so nice one. More apologies for yet more potentially condescending comments by me!
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i'd bet a pound to a penny climbing on grit wouldn't be where it is today were it not for the humble top rope.
To be fair I doubt the history of gritstone climbing owes much to the serial toproping by aspirant E1 leaders. Not since the 1940s anyway.
Anyway good to see a decent reply there by tallsop.
lets be fair most e6/7 routes and above on grit were not put up by aspirant E1 leaders but many were practiced on top rope prior to the first ascent.any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.
well in tallsop.
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I don't think you need to apologise Ben, it was fair comment on the logbook as it stood but Tallsop also deserves some credit for his response and generally seeing the light.
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any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.
No.
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sorry to rattle you're cage andy.obviously ground up is ethically the purist way,and any improvement on style of ascent highly commended.in retrospect can see why you were so blunt.
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any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.
No.
the first ascentionist is climbing without the benefit of the knowledge that the route already exists at whatever particular grade. everyone else afterwards is, and is at an advantage, and as a route acrues more and more ascents this factor only greatens (is that a word?).
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(is that a word?)
Yes. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/that)
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any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.
No.
the first ascentionist is climbing without the benefit of the knowledge that the route already exists at whatever particular grade. everyone else afterwards is, and is at an advantage, and as a route acrues more and more ascents this factor only greatens (is that a word?).
fair point.(a general consensus being reached then recorded in the local book of lies) ;)
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there's also that theory that the more often something is done, the easier it is for people as a collective to do it again.
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any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.
No.
the first ascentionist is climbing without the benefit of the knowledge that the route already exists at whatever particular grade. everyone else afterwards is, and is at an advantage, and as a route acrues more and more ascents this factor only greatens (is that a word?).
Exactly the sort of point I'd be arguing half a decade ago and getting shouted down by X amount of people ;)
Tallsop, good reply, hope you keep progressing stylistically.
dr crimp - being able to do a route is not just about being physically strong enough to do it on a top-rope, it's about being mentally strong enough to do it as a climb. It's an overall experience and an overall challenge, not just a series of moves.
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any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.
No.
the first ascentionist is climbing without the benefit of the knowledge that the route already exists at whatever particular grade. everyone else afterwards is, and is at an advantage, and as a route accrues more and more ascents this factor only greatens (is that a word?).
Exactly the sort of point I'd be arguing half a decade ago and getting shouted down by X amount of people ;)
Tallsop, good reply, hope you keep progressing stylistically.
dr crimp - being able to do a route is not just about being physically strong enough to do it on a top-rope, it's about being mentally strong enough to do it as a climb. It's an overall experience and an overall challenge, not just a series of moves.
dave ,i'm fully aware of the overall challenge.being born and bred on on grit and having climbed with some the best gritoners in the country over my climbing career i know exactly what wicket you're batting off.i have climbed e7 ground up and headpoint e8 on grit.can see how you took what i said the wrong way.obviously any improvement on style of ascent is to be commended.and we should all be be striving for the ultimate.however,my point was should someone top rope a route before leading it,if the route was worked on top rope before the first lead its been repeated in the style of the first ascent...i.e pre practised(not battered into submission).And its worth noteing that many notable british climbers top rope hard routes before an ascent/headpoint(u seen grit flick?)for an up to date example.should all boulder problems be repeated in the the style of first ascent(battered into submission,tried on a regular basis until successful ,flashed?).guess the most important thing on grit is respect and care for the routes and the style they are attempted in whatever the grade.
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I don't think it's dave you were meaning to reply to there. Quotes can be a bitch. :)
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It probably wasn't me he was replying to, but still a couple of points:
i have climbed e7 ground up and headpoint e8 on grit.
have this one on the house:
(http://www.torresfoundation.org/tt/pics/GoldMedal.jpg)
however,my point was should someone top rope a route before leading it,if the route was worked on top rope before the first lead its been repeated in the style of the first ascent...i.e pre practised(not battered into submission)
that fact is the putting up a new route is fundamentally different from repeating an established route. A headpoint of an established route is worse style than a headpoint of an unclimbed route. Even if you turned up and headpointed a route that had been put up on the headpoint and even had the same number of attempts on the rope as the first ascentionist had, even down the the same number of minutes spent on the rope, its fundamentally a worse style of ascent, because the route is already established. And the more repeats a route as had, the more of a worse style of ascent it is. This is regardless of arguments about what people should or should not be be doing, or how the style in which everyone should be climbing.
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there's also that theory that the more often something is done, the easier it is for people as a collective to do it again.
Funnily enough, John Watson is going on about morphic resonance on his blog
http://stonecountry.blogspot.com/2009/11/four-fontainbleau-problems.html] [url]http://stonecountry.blogspot.com/2009/11/four-fontainbleau-problems.html (http://[url)[/url]
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sweet dave.cheers for the bling.you're dead on the money.obviously opinion's towards styles of ascent evolve over time and i respect you're opine and agree hole heartedly.
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hole heartedly.
That a come on? You go girls.
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yorkshire.might ave known you'de be batting for that side. :wank:
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http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1494 (http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1494) sorry for the ego trip but I think it deals with the 'issues'.
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A well written piece there, i'm definately on the wagon. However, (at the risk of making this thread even more off topic) we've established that working routes to death is definately not cool and a little bit limp, so, what abbout boulder problems, shouldnt we be looking after those as well? i know we cant expect to flash hard boulderproblems, but should there be guidelines? for example, i can usually do v6 in one session, (depending on the problem - usually whether its easier for lankies or not!) knowing this, would it be wrong of me to have anything more than a V7/8 as an aspiiration/project? im pretty sure im not good enough to do a V9/10, so having repeated attempts at one would surely just damage the problem for others who are better suited to the problem? Take 'Brads wall' at stanton for example, that crumbly foothold? Maybe just a 'take things one grade at a time' approach would be reasonable? Some people might just think - oh, theyre only boulders!- but to some these classic problems mean just as much to them as classic hard routes do to others.
Just a thought, im probably just reading to much into it...
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I think that's the central hypocracy in the argument that you shouldn't headpoint or top rope because it damages the route.
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Grimer, I don't follow, are you suggesting that it's hypocritical to suggest that one shouldn't headpoint / top rope routes (that are regularly onsighted, eg pedlars slab) because working boulder problems causes damage?
If so, with respect that's a bit on a non sequitar.
My view is that the real reason that you shouldn't top rope and headpoint etc is that you'r demeaning the challenge of climbing and without the challenge climbing means nothing.
As to boulder problems, working problems isn't wrong per se but it does lead to the situation where people ge tfixated and frustrated by failure and begin to resort to donkey lines, wire brushing and even chipping.
I think the 'bridies rules' i.e. three goes and move on is probably a good place for an ethical foundation stone.
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I think its more relevent on delicate routes that rely on pebbles etc. Plus there's the kit - a badly set up toprope can trash the top of a crag, whereras bouldering tends to impact the ground more, and the ground is at least reparable to some extent.
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I think that's the central hypocracy in the argument that you shouldn't headpoint or top rope because it damages the route.
Thats what i find confusing, its wrong to work routes to death, but but it seems that its not wrong to do the same to boulder problems - their all made of the same stuff.
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Again, I would suggest other than high bold stuff on tope rope where the forces exerted on pebbles (particularly) are different on the onsight the issue is not one of erosion of the rock but degradation of the ethic which is what makes climbing what it is.
The challenge of bouldering is not about the head game (well usually it's not) but about the physical and technical difficulties which is why the ethical standards in sports climbing are different to trad: consider the reception you'd get dogging Sardine at the snore as opposed to dogging London Wall at Millstone.
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Well the point only really applies to starting holds. Mosty boulder problems are more than one move. If a boulder problem is too hard, you don't get anywhere. Its hard to trash a hold when you can't get to it. The key difference is a top-rope allows you to get to anywhere, and try anything, like standing on pebbles where you would never have had the skill to climb onto them.
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Well, it's just that it seemed that Tallsop was genuinely looking for clarification on ethical issues that for several pages on this thread, he was considered to be found wanting.
Fair enough as Sloper said, that the main issue may well be one of diminishing the challenge. But, for anyone who suggests that the reason top roping is wrong because it damages the rock, and if Tallsop were to meet you attempting Deliverance, or West Side Story, or Vienna, or the arete at Higgar East, all of which are probably attempted 10 - 20 times for each actual ascent, then would he not be justified for wondering what the difference is.
After all, in these examples, you don't just get to polish / snap / crumble / erode the rock, but you also get to destroy the ground underneath.
Hypocrisy is a naff word, but bear in mind that his are genuine enquiries, and to me the argument that working routes is damaging while working problems is forgivable doesn't hold water.
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Have you had a look at his logbook? An E1 climber top-roping E8s is likely to be damaging, far more so than a 6a boulderer trying an 8a. Because the boulderer won't get anywhere.
Yes some bits of rock are more easily damaged than other. Yes for an individual ascent style is primarily an ethical issue. But in the great scheme a general ethic of improving style (ascents in as good or better style) is bound to help preserve most routes. The fact that the boulders are getting trashed too is a problem, but it seems daft to throw out the opportunity to preserve routes just because it throws up an ethical inconsistency with the starting holds of some boulders.
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Kind of agree with both Johnny and Grimer's last posts.
The implication seems to be though that routes are somehow more important than boulder problems?
Perhaps it is that with bouldering comes the acceptance and expectation of erosion etc, it comes as no surprise that the pebble on WSS breaks, but if a crucial pebble broke on Equilibrium the specific circumstances of the incident would have bearing on the reaction; you have to earn the right to be up there.
On a long enough timeline they will all break - did Beau Gest receive the right kind, (climbers who have earned the right etc), of attention over the years or did toproping cause the pebble loss? Is it important?
And as I previewed Johnny pipes up again, answering some of the questions; its about damage limitation, lets preserve as many things as possible for as long as possible, it being inevitable that boulders will fall first. And yes you do have to earn the right.
Its like Gattaca.
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Cowboyhat, you make a serious point that you should have to earn the right to be in a position on some routes where you can do some damage, as you say a VS punter on a tight tope rope trying the moves on Equilibrium and damaging a ket hold would be excoriated whereas causing the same damage whilst on the lead would not meet with that reaction.
The problem is that rhere is, it is undeniable, a thematic consitency a between working a route on a top rope and 'sessioning' a boulder problem.
I don't however think that the comparison is valid as in the former one is engaging with the route in style x while preparing to do it in style y. This differene is the cause of the dissonance between how we regard ground up ascents (as being as close to ethical perfection as makes no difference (how many times have you blown the onsight by failing to notice a hold etc)) and headpointed / top roped / battered in submission ascents; even when a ground up ascent can have numerous attempts, take large numbers of falls onto runners which can cause damage and so on.
That aside top roping can and does lead to damage that ground up and onsight attempts do not. A few years ago I say an utter moron trying to top rope the E3/5 on the left of the great slab at froggatt in the rain, and do you know what? He wasn't making much progress, but he was scrabbling away with drity and wet shoes causing I am sure significantly more damage than an onsight / ground up attempt in the dry. I've also seen people trying things in trainers covered in grit, walking boots etc etc which are in general due to ignorance.
The problem is however that if one tries to deal with the ethical and other issues and dissuade people from top roping one is met with a barrage of people shouting nonsense about elitism which is why I wrote that article for Summitt.
Ethics aren't black and white, they're a grey area with nuanced shadows and to tread lightly and avoid, methaphorically, stepping on people's toes requires maturity and experience which are attributes that few teenagers and young adults have and herein lies the problem it is the teenagers and young adults that are the 'yoof', 'next generation' 'little bastards' etc.
One of the reaosns I perfer areas like stanage far right is that there's still vegitation at the base of the crag and so on, the situation at the plantation and other popular areas is such that it really puts me off going there, but hey the 'honeypot' theory has been done to death in tourism theory and I really can't be arsed in going down that route now, not when I've got some exciting hoovering to do and then a haircut to contemplate.
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Can you really claim the E grade if you toprope the fucker until the outcome is no longer in doubt?
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Not if you're honest with yourself.
No do I go for a tint or just some curls.
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Not if you're honest with yourself.
remember this is climbing. honesty is pretty rare in this game.
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What is this 'claim the grade' thing that people talk about? Having toproped some fuckers until the outcome was still a doubt myself, I'm not familiar with the concept. How do I claim a grade? Does it involve coupons?
No doubt, if a person flashes a route rather than headpoints it, they will do less damage. But it seems to me that the rates of erosion on and around boulder problems is much greater than that on routes.
I think a lot of the argumentts you see are fine as long as they are in the vacuum of something like this board - eg the tickmarks thing, but take a few steps back and I would say that if you look at the environmental and visual impact of bouldering / climbing, eg ground erosion, parking, holds covered in chalk, chalk caking everdry holds etc then tickmarks are a tiny issue. And while all that is cool, if people are setting themselves up in a position to educate someone (Tallsop), then it's worth checking your textbooks.
I'm not saying tickmarks and top roping are good, but it's very easy to point at things that you think are on the wrong side of the line in order to make you think you are on the right side of it.
As I said, the challenge argument is the one that stands up better.
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What textbooks Grimer? What you seem to be saying is don't discuss this, because the only logical extension is that we all have to give up climbing lest we damage the place. I know from my geomorphology textbooks a) quite how much this landscape was man made in the first place and b) quite how quickly natural processes would reclaim it.
So taking a realist view, the fact is we all go climbing and erosion is a problem. All I'm proposing is folk put the rock first when considering their ethics. Given the current trends, the bouldering is always going to get hammered. What can we do about it? Good practice for ourselves, try to encourage good practice amongst others. Personally, I've gone a bit further and helped to do something about ground erosion too.
So its all very well picking holes in this, but what have you added thats actually constructive, helping us to either the answer or the cure? Nothing. I'm sure that's a great lesson for Tallsop.
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Just trying for myself to answer a question he asked which I thought made a very valid point. But maybe you're right that it hasn't added anything.
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You're right, it is a valid point. Working boulders to death isn't going to do them any good. But unlike for routes, its hard to come up with a simple ethical guideline that will help.
Bouldering is still climbing from the ground up though, and as I said above, that means the problem's difficulty raises a bar to suitors that top-ropes do not. I really don't see any hypocrisy.
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You're right, it is a valid point. Working boulders to death isn't going to do them any good. But unlike for routes, its hard to come up with a simple ethical guideline that will help.
Bouldering is still climbing from the ground up though, and as I said above, that means the problem's difficulty raises a bar to suitors that top-ropes do not. I really don't see any hypocrisy.
erm..... you watched ben bransby on grit flick?they sell that as a highball.worked on a rope.
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Many of the routes on natural grit are best classified as highball boulder problems, which is why I like the idea (adopted in the Northumberland bouldering guide) of grading them as such, e.g. Font 7a (H). This also conveniently solves the problem of the Great E-grade Swindle, where tiny climbs are given gigantic grades.
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Well the point only really applies to starting holds.
I can think of plenty of problems that can be started half way up, missing out sit starts, traverses, ive even seen people pushing eachother into position. its not just the starting holds man.
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Many of the routes on natural grit are best classified as highball boulder problems, which is why I like the idea (adopted in the Northumberland bouldering guide) of grading them as such, e.g. Font 7a (H). This also conveniently solves the problem of the Great E-grade Swindle, where tiny climbs are given gigantic grades.
point taken.but where do you draw the line between soloing and highballing.the line can be only drawn by the individual ,or do we have to call on the nhs to settle this one from there stats.lets be fair they mop up all the misjudgements.
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Many of the routes on natural grit are best classified as highball boulder problems,
They already are in the current BMC guides.
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Many of the routes on natural grit are best classified as highball boulder problems,
They already are in the current BMC guides.
do the bmc collaborate with nhs for a concise opinion on how many people get hurt on these highball routes?historically many people don't get massively nailed/seriously injured by bouldering,highball or not.od turned ankle ect.
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Many of the routes on natural grit are best classified as highball boulder problems,
They already are in the current BMC guides.
Jesus, you know you're getting old when you agree with the BMC!
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Brilliant I've bumped into the proxy uk cock thread, I knew it was hiding some where.
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So its all very well picking holes in this, but what have you added thats actually constructive, helping us to either the answer or the cure? Nothing. I'm sure that's a great lesson for Tallsop.
I thought slopers idea of three tries then move on was a good idea - might adjust it to 5 goes a session? makes sense and could help limit erosion? would also probs help mentally, got to get in 5 goes or ill have to wait till next time! make every go count?
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The three goes was something 'imposed' at the Bridestones due to the erosion at the place, if you've seen Jerry's arete you'll know what I mean.
Basically if you can't climb it in style in three goes move on. Cue people mentioning the huge number of times I've broken this rule, just goes to show rules are for the obeyance of fools and the guidance of wise men.
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just goes to show rules are for the obeyance of fools and the guidance of wise men.
Wow....thats deep man... :bow:
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erm..... you watched ben bransby on grit flick?they sell that as a highball.worked on a rope.
Well highballs are blurred, especially first ascents. Personally I don't give a toss how you or Al Lee wants to classify it, as far as I'm concerned (and 99% of UKB I'm sure) bouldering does not involve ropes.
A 3 or 5 go rule is a nice idea, though for me its rather arbitrary and contrived. Climbing ground-up is not contrived, its the basic premise of the sport.
Whats more important when bouldering is engaging your brain - using a mat to protect the ground and keep mud off your boots, making sure your boots are clean, being aware of how soft the rock is, and stopping if you think you are damaging it.
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Of course the 3 / 5 go 'rule' is arbitrary and largely unenforceable, however if it pervades and becomes the norm then helps, after all no one's going to tell a visiting californian that they've had their three goes on Careless Torque, but on the other hand a local punter having their 15th go on Zippy's traverse mught be politely told to try something else or come back another day.
if you're preparede to come back another day you're less likely to use offensive donkey lines, wire brush, scream abuse etc etc
It's all about the attitude and the attitude is a product of the ethic.
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stopping if you think you are damaging it.
There lies the rub. Thinking is not often at the forefront of many people's thoughts.
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Of course the 3 / 5 go 'rule' is arbitrary and largely unenforceable, however if it pervades and becomes the norm then helps,
I don't think its achievable as a pervading ethic - I'm not sure its why folk go bouldering unfortunately. You or I might enjoy a big circuit day with a three go rule, but I think the majority aim to warm up and then session a particular problem or two. I don't see an answer other than stressing respect for the rock.
There lies the rub. Thinking is not often at the forefront of many people's thoughts.
Maybe. Though I think this generation will be aware more than ever that you can't just do what you like and ignore the consequences.
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From what I've seen the attitude is precisely that; it almost always takes the form 'what I'm doing (eg top roping a classic VS) doesn't hurt anyone else so I'm perfectly entitled to do it' and this is often coupled with things along the lines of 'well there's so much chalk on it already my excessive use doesn't make a difference' and 'if it's ok for people opening new routes to use a wire brush why can't I use one on this clean 4+ problem'.
In short as things eg cars, cameras, climbing kit becomes cheaper and we become more affluent the 'me generation' and 'have it now' attitude means that people are less aware of the consequences of their actions and more likely to ignore the consequences of their actions.
After all how many 'grim up north london' eco luvvies do you see buying 'organic' veg flown in from Peru and listen to banging on about their multiple overseas holidays.
I know it's depressing but I am very pessimistic about societal mores and attitudes.
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Well I know where you're coming from but I do believe that climbing and being outdoors generally is a force for good in this world.
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It is, but that's only because it requires some effort, sadly the amount of effort required is dminishing and the number of fuktards in increasing, see any media reporting of idiots going up Snowdon in November without waterproofs etc and the behaviour at the crag in general.
Anyway enough of this I'm off for a meaningless drive to buy some disposable nappies and battery farmed chicken wrapped in plastic ohh yeah and some aerosols, can you still get CFC based ones?
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seing as everything is so shit slopes, you may as well just kill youself and get it over with. you're going to die anyway eventually.
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He is just depressed because he lost at cribbage in the Sheaf last night - all will be sweetness and light in his life again once he watches England get turned over in the Rugby at the weekend. ;)
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Care to mention the score on the trip to Ireland?
Anyway, I'm a neutral tomorrow the real match is sunday in Dublin.
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Of course the 3 / 5 go 'rule' is arbitrary and largely unenforceable, however if it pervades and becomes the norm then helps,
I don't think its achievable as a pervading ethic - I'm not sure its why folk go bouldering unfortunately. You or I might enjoy a big circuit day with a three go rule, but I think the majority aim to warm up and then session a particular problem or two. I don't see an answer other than stressing respect for the rock.
There lies the rub. Thinking is not often at the forefront of many people's thoughts.
Maybe. Though I think this generation will be aware more than ever that you can't just do what you like and ignore the consequences.
ok. so you gave angels share highball font 7c+.was this part of you're black rocks circuit and sent within 3 goes?or did you warm up and session it.the latter i belive!
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Angels's Share took about ten goes, and in the same session I did every other route/ problem on the block to warm up/ down within the three go rule. So somewhere in between. Could I have done better? Certainly yes. Does the grade mean much? No. The moves would feel much easier without the fall, but neither is it E7 with pads; folk will demand an opinion, highball 7c+ is my best approximation.
My whole point here is that rules are not the way forward. I believe in a ground up ethic because to me its the most basic premise of the sport. Its the antithesis of the 'tick by any means' approach, and I think by adopting it you are far more likely to treat the rock with respect. But the only thing that will preserve the rock is intelligent use, and if ground-up becomes the fashion no doubt it will attract idiots who miss the point.
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Angels's Share took about ten goes, and in the same session I did every other route/ problem on the block to warm up/ down within the three go rule. So somewhere in between. Could I have done better? Certainly yes. Does the grade mean much? No. The moves would feel much easier without the fall, but neither is it E7 with pads; folk will demand an opinion, highball 7c+ is my best approximation.
My whole point here is that rules are not the way forward. I believe in a ground up ethic because to me its the most basic premise of the sport. Its the antithesis of the 'tick by any means' approach, and I think by adopting it you are far more likely to treat the rock with respect. But the only thing that will preserve the rock is intelligent use, and if ground-up becomes the fashion no doubt it will attract idiots who miss the point.
The highlighted point is your ethic, i.e. rule, not necessarily everyone else's.
T'is a good one though, and similar to my own, but others will have different beliefs that aren't in the vein of ground up.
I do, in general, agree with you, but the crux is convincing those who don't share this stand point that its a good place to be.
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Yes, that's what I was trying to say. Its my personal ethic, not a rule I expect others to comply with. I don't believe rules are appropriate in climbing, I do believe in folk taking time to consider their own ethics.
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I too dislike the idea of rules being applied to climbing but I am in favour of ethical norms and mores being imposed in a quasi rule like manner, e.g. no bolts on traditional crags.
The more established rules and mores, which are approaching what some would consider as 'memes' are fine, the difficulty arises when you have new developments that render the old memes or mores less valid; take for example chalk.
At first it was controversial there was the clean hand gang, then it became accepted on ";owt 'arder than VS" and now? Well it's clear that some folk almost chalk up when walking up to the crag. In fact the moral standard with regard to chalk has yet to settle hence the debate over tick marks and so on.
As for people thinking and applying their own ethic in a subjective manner; think of the circumstances where this is considered valid: in short there aren't many. The application of ethics, mores and memes are almost always considered with reference to the affects on others.
Sadly we know that young blokes don't actually think about others that much, I think it's rare to come across considerate 19 year old blokes; so bring about the outcomes that we desire we need a framework which predisposes the individual to conform.
This pressure to conform I think sits rather well with climbing as, to be blunt you're conforming with a non conformist tradition and can draw from and position yourself within that history.
A bit like goths, gosh aren't they individual and rebellious? ::)
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A bit like goths, gosh aren't they individual and rebellious? ::)
Yep good point. I'm off to the kitchen now to find me a blunt bottle opener and self harm, that'll show em.