UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: gme on October 03, 2014, 05:34:19 pm
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I have separated this from a certain other thread where the initial conversation started so it is disassociated from any particular individual’s performance. My comments in there were never intended to be about a single achievement but about something I am genuinely interested in both climbing and, more pertinently to me, recruitment, management and development of my employees.
In the 15 years I have been in business I have employed 100s of people from backgrounds as diverse as prison and privately educated graduates. The levels of attainment that these people had reached varied massively and were linked with a number of external and internal influences, of which, in my opinion, the effect of the level of expectation that had been put on them was a major contributor.
Possibly one of the most rewarding things I have had from my businesses has been the development of a number of my staff, seeing them grow from kids, who had pretty much failed school and left with very modest ambitions, into positions well above anything they ever thought they would be able to do. These are not kids who were told they would be failures but ones that were given achievement targets at a pretty average level, had attained them, and been rewarded and praised for their success. So having achieved what they had been told was a really good job for them they assumed that was a high point of the career and settled in for the duration rather than trying to go further.
Over the years I have learned that It is only when the same people are told that, whilst their achievements so far are ok they are nowhere near what they are capable of, they can really go on to maximise their potential. And in order for them to realise this they need someone they listen too (coaches, teachers, managers etc.) to truly believe they are capable of much more and to be ambitious for them
The effect this belief by the coaches/teachers/managers has on the performance of the individual is widely documented as Self-fulfilling prophecy. I could give you links but it’s easy just to google “the Pygmalion effect”, or the “Galatea effect” or if you want to see the negative side of it look up “the golem effect. There are dozens of papers written about it.
I had a good diagram to go in here but no idea how to get it to work.
So what has this got to do with climbing and the reporting of an ascent of route x by person y.
Firstly I want to point out that I am talking about performance based climbing here which involves grades, competition and a desire to be really good. I am not talking about people who just want to potter about having experiences, nothing wrong with that but it is totally irrelevant to this subject.
I personal believe that British climbers and the climbing media are holding back the progression of our young climbers by overly celebrating relatively minor achievements. I feel that we are setting our bar far too low and therefore having a negative effect on their development.
I think one of the major causes of this is the fast food style of reporting on the internet and, more pertinently, chatrooms. In the age of interactive news reporting everyone can influence the media and therefore the athlete, inadvertently filling part of the role of the coach/teacher/manager and therefore have an effect on young climber’s expectations. And i believe the problem is caused by the fact that most people have very low expectations themselves and often have little concept of what constitutes high level performance. If you look at the two popular climbing forums here-
UKB is a lot better than UKC in its levels of knowledge (with one or two very vocal exceptions) and a lot of people on here have climbed at a high enough level to really have an idea of what the difference between 8b and 9a is, and they have an idea of where real cutting edge climbing is at. However many dont but the levels are such that there is no majority and therefore a balance is met. This probably lead to the way the other topic was approached.
UKC however is heavily populated by people who think E6 or 8a is pretty much living end and anyone climbing those grades is up there with the best. This has an effect of dumbing down everyones expectations, it reduces the level of when something becomes news and therefore the expectations of people in the sport.
With the exception of Steve McClure British sports climbing has not really moved on for 15 years whilst the number of participants has increased and the facilities have both increased in number and improved in standard. This can easily be written off by saying that everyone is into bouldering but whilst there has been a lot of bouldering only walls built the number of good quality lead walls has increased as well and therefore we would assume that participation has as well. We are also told that there is no funding available for young kids! Well sorry but this has always been the case and perhaps its due to the fact that most of the companies doing the funding are global and therefore base who they sponsor on globally significant ascents. So we have better facilities, more participants, it’s easier and cheaper to travel, knowledge of training is much better and more easily available, equipment is better, coaches are available at every wall etc. etc. etc. To me it leaves our low expectations as the key thing that’s holding us back, something that wasn’t an issue in the 80s and 90s when we had the best climbers in the world and therefore 90% of the news was about the cutting edge and it was in hard format so generally written with a bit more care and attention and in much less quantities.
I am not trying to be all doom and gloom as we do presently have a large pool of young climbers who look like they have what it takes to operate in the upper levels of the sport, what Shauna, Mina and now Michaela (see a trend of raised expectation) has done for women’s bouldering levels proves what is possible . But we and the media need to raise our expectations to help them get there.
I am sure a lot of people will think this is just a load of bollocks, so please just ignore it and don’t comment. If you disagree and can put points forward to counter or support my beliefs I would genuinely like to hear them. I have no objective with this it’s just something I have become interested in, mainly with management of teams at work, and am open to other people’s thoughts on the ideas.
I also wasn’t happy with how the thread about Jim Pope’s ascent had been perceived, as I think it was looked at by some, who I don’t think read the whole thread, as being some kind of put down on the lad which I can assure him it never was, well on my behalf anyway.
Sorry about the length of this but I don’t have a blog or anywhere to put it so here seemed a suitable place. I hope it’s of interest to others if not feel free to log pile.
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Gav this is really intersting, I disagree with you on several of your points, but rather than hashing out something quick on the phone now I'll write something more cogent when it's raining tomorrow.
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On the whole I agree with most of that. Although I'm not convinced that this effect is actually that great, and that the reasons for Brit sport standards being shit aren't more down to other things (think we did this a few years ago in a thread entitled "British standards - shit or not shit"). Having said that, I've never been a kid who's good, so maybe that warps my view. Incidentally, all those who I looked up to as talented youths from my first few years climbing (Bristol) never developed to anywhere near their full potential. I (who was always shit) have stuck with the 'trying to get good' shit more and now climbed harder than most of them, so maybe you're right? Or they're just cooler and less OCD. [Feel free to punter me for being an arrogant prick]
With the exception of Steve McClure British sports climbing has not really moved on for 15 years
Is that true? How many Brits climbed 8c+ or harder from 1997/8-2000? I count 13 from the last couple of years. (Clearly our standard compared to the best has declined from your day, but given the expansion of climbing in other countries that's not really surprising)
(Ste Mac, Jordan B, Tim P, Caff, Robins, Dave Mac, Ted, Ryan, Me, Tom B, Pearson, Ben D, The Fresh Prince)
P.S. I too think it's interesting. But then I enjoy foot-on-campus aero cap...
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Interesting post Gav, and better separated from the Jim Pope thread. I too think what you describe is a factor affecting UK standards, but not the main factor - I think a cultural focus on grit and bouldering has been more influential, but I don't want to drag this thread off topic.
One area I think the Pygmalion effect might be large and detrimental is how we handle the transition of competition climbers from junior to senior competitions. This is a tricky thing to get right for all athletes; senior competition implies a big step up in performance. Expose an athlete to it too early and it can be overwhelming.
But if you leave an athlete in junior competition too long then the effects you talk about are very strong - the athlete feels they are at the top of the sport and eases off, thus limiting attainment.
The UK has a proud history of youths who place highly in european and world youth events who never quite cut it on the senior stage. Maybe the Pygmalion effect is why?
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With regards to reporting, I wanted to write a separate post. I agree it's an issue, but I think it is more to do with how things are reported, rather than them being reported in the first place.
Some ascents are reported on UKC as if they were great achievements in themselves, as opposed to an indicator that some young kid has promise.
I think it's great if people get recognition on UKC and here for "minor" news stories, but you have to get the tone right, if you don't want people to feel like they're a big cheese.
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It was nice to read Ben Davison say the other day that La Dura Dura is a goal. Maybe someone should point him in the direction of the world's first 9c tho? Someone has to do it first, why not Ben?
The lad I'm off to Spain with next year has only been climbing three years and is at 8a+ just about but I'm always bangin' on at him to train (he does non). I asked him the other day what his aim is for the trip and he replied 8b - well, he's under orders to buy a 100m rope and then he'll have no excuses to get on Fisheye. I just want him to aim far higher than he thinks he can achieve.
Personally, I'm not much of a runner, never have been and three years ago after another knee surgery, I was told not to run anymore. A mate who's a personal trainer suggested we run across the country (Rat Race's The Wall) over two days, which at 69 miles was gonna be a big ask as I'd never ran anymore than ten miles before and not for a long while. So I set the bar real high - entered the Expert class to do it in a day and got training. Everyone told me to aim for 20hrs and be happy but that sounded a bit pathetic to me. I decided I'd be happy with 17hrs but really wanted nearer 14 - must set high goals eh? Ended up tweaking my achilles a few weeks before but was on for my 17hrs anyway, so much for everyone including my physio, PT mate etc saying be happy with 20hrs. As it happened, I stopped running to help a guy who was about to stop and walked with him for the last few hours and we finished in 20hrs anyway ;D Point being - nobody really pushed me to aim high and that happens all the time in all the sports I've participated in. It does my head in.
It's not about pushing youngsters but rather, showing them that they can be something a whole degree better than they ever imagined.
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I think this is a well needed discussion, and I'm sure it will branch out a bit because the pygmalion is likely just one of a number of factors responsible for the trends in British sport climbing. Anyone care to guess why our expectations/standards dropped/stalled after the mid 90's despite steve's efforts. There is clearly a big gap between our standards and those on 8a.nu for example - 9a's get reported on there pretty frequently and no one bats an eye lid unless the climber is either very young, hasn't been climbing long, or its a route with a serious reputation.
I think Stu makes a good point regarding the tone of reporting. After all, even if we re-set our standard to 9b+ being the top (assuming they're not there for most climbers) there will be a period of disequilibrium until the new standards are met. I suspect we are probably at that stage now, as there has been a clear rise in standards over the last 5 years. The uk climbing media still have to publish news, and not all of it is going to be cutting edge stuff.
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It's also worth mentioning the role of coaches in setting the bar for expectations. Arguably this is more important as I reckon for many youngsters the coach is their view of the top level, or at least where they get their view of where that level lies. This isn't as simple as the coach telling them that 6c is good but really you're shit until you've climbed 9a+. It's important to give the kid the confidence in their own abilities, and in the coach, to reach that level, and this has a lot to do with expectations. I certainly know that in all the sports I've done that often a big motivation is not wanting to let the coach down, and that should not be underestimated, but it has to be done carefully; based on real belief in the climbers potential.
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Anyone care to guess why our expectations/standards dropped/stalled after the mid 90's despite steve's efforts.
- Grit
- Bouldering
- Probably didn't help that Ste isn't seen as someone who's into training and all that lark, whereas Ben and Jerry are, so those looking up to Steve - but without the raw talent - potentially had a worse role model than when Ben and Jerry were top dogs?
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Good points Ben - coaches play a massive role and I know folk like Tom Greenall think that motivating your athletes is the most important, and the hardest part of the job.
I think an un discussed factor holding back progress is the nature of UK sport climbing. If you're a young climber starting climbing in northern Spain, or in the Basque, the huge lines in Rodellar and Baltzola are going to be hugely motivating. To climb 8c+ on this territory you've got to be a good all round climber.
In the UK, most of the lines people aspire to will be short and cruxy. There are literally hundreds of climbers in the UK with the finger strength to climb a euro 9a, and a handful with the fitness...
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In the UK, most of the lines people aspire to will be short and cruxy. There are literally hundreds of climbers in the UK with the finger strength to climb a euro 9a, and a handful with the fitness...
The lack of friendly 9as definitely limits the chances of the 8c+ brigade on home soil. Apart from Rainshadow the others are all hideously crimpy. Pete Robins has done quite a few 8c+s in Wales but the Big Bang is so hideously sharp it's just not a nice project unless you're under 9 stone. Pasquills been trying Mutation for years but that's probably 9a+ in reality and the others are Mcclure crimp horror shows too. I don't know how much this Pygmalion effect has on British standards but the lack of variety in our hardest routes doesn't help.
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+1 to that. What I wouldn't give for a Santa Linya, Gorge de Loup, Pic st Loup or Baltzola within driving distance!
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Clearly the 'expectation' of an easy escape to a sunny endurance paradise has lowered expectations of what's achievable on home soil! Expect to crimp and suffer and ye shall succeed.
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+1 to that. What I wouldn't give for a Santa Linya, Loup or Baltzola within driving distance!
Yes but you'd be a solid 9a climber and your ego would be unbearable ;)
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I'm sure the limitations of the available rock must play a part. There was an interview with Alex Megos recently where he said the reason he hasn't climbed 9b yet is that there aren't any in the Frankenjura.
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I'm a total outsider and have never climbed in the UK, so ignore if you like. BUT, I live in Alaska which is really remote from anything resembling hard climbing. I've been the strongest boulderer in Alaska for 15 years, and when I could be bothered to rope up, one of the best (if not the best) sport climber in the area. However, I was a minnow in a puddle (not even a pond). Compared to world or national standards, I was/am nothing special at all. Over this time, I've watched 20-30 kids come through all with the potentail to take it well beyond me, but they never did. And for 10 years, I was stuck at the exact same spot. Why?
I've always been convinced that your day-to-day experience is what will shape your expectations in climbing. What you see and experience on a day-to-day basis will dictate what you percieve as hard. For example, if you regularly climb with a bunch of guys who onsight 8a, then after some time your view will be that an 8a onsight is no big deal. I think this applies regardless of your own level. So this would apply to coaches, trainers, and climbers.
How does this fit with GME's theory? If everyone thinks 8a is hard, then the expectation is to reach 8a. If you think 8a is "it", then it's very rare and to have the vision to go beyond that. Locally that has meant that 5.12 was "hard". The gym rarely sets anythign harder. All of the older guys have plateaued for years at 5.12 and for no real reason. The kids around here never really seem to take that next jump. There's always 1 kid on the local climbing team that is the #1 kid and even he's barely at the 12+/13- level. Even after they leave for college, very few of them seem to take that next step.
Historically in the US there have been "pockets" of talent that seems to pop up and push the standards (at least the local national standards). Smith Rocks in the 80's, Salt Lake City in the 90's, and Boulder in the 2000's.
Sometimes you get exceptions, but as a whole, it seems like you have to have that constant standard around you to push on. In the last 3 years I've finally had 3-4 guys here pushing the v10/11 envelope, which has in turn helped push me further along as well. Being able to join in the loving UKB community has helped me communicate directly with others who climb as hard and harder. I've been able to share training ideas, motivation, etc. Those have all helped me push through further than I would have ever guessed.
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I have separated this from a certain other thread where the initial conversation started so it is disassociated from any particular individual’s performance. My comments in there were never intended to be about a single achievement but about something I am genuinely interested in both climbing and, more pertinently to me, recruitment, management and development of my employees.
In the 15 years I have been in business I have employed 100s of people from backgrounds as diverse as prison and privately educated graduates. The levels of attainment that these people had reached varied massively and were linked with a number of external and internal influences, of which, in my opinion, the effect of the level of expectation that had been put on them was a major contributor.
Bonkers to have to copy this essay to make it a relevant post.. But there is something in this for me, a really really thought provoking post. IMO
Possibly one of the most rewarding things I have had from my businesses has been the development of a number of my staff, seeing them grow from kids, who had pretty much failed school and left with very modest ambitions, into positions well above anything they ever thought they would be able to do. These are not kids who were told they would be failures but ones that were given achievement targets at a pretty average level, had attained them, and been rewarded and praised for their success. So having achieved what they had been told was a really good job for them they assumed that was a high point of the career and settled in for the duration rather than trying to go further.
Over the years I have learned that It is only when the same people are told that, whilst their achievements so far are ok they are nowhere near what they are capable of, they can really go on to maximise their potential. And in order for them to realise this they need someone they listen too (coaches, teachers, managers etc.) to truly believe they are capable of much more and to be ambitious for them
The effect this belief by the coaches/teachers/managers has on the performance of the individual is widely documented as Self-fulfilling prophecy. I could give you links but it’s easy just to google “the Pygmalion effect”, or the “Galatea effect” or if you want to see the negative side of it look up “the golem effect. There are dozens of papers written about it.
I had a good diagram to go in here but no idea how to get it to work.
So what has this got to do with climbing and the reporting of an ascent of route x by person y.
Firstly I want to point out that I am talking about performance based climbing here which involves grades, competition and a desire to be really good. I am not talking about people who just want to potter about having experiences, nothing wrong with that but it is totally irrelevant to this subject.
I personal believe that British climbers and the climbing media are holding back the progression of our young climbers by overly celebrating relatively minor achievements. I feel that we are setting our bar far too low and therefore having a negative effect on their development.
I think one of the major causes of this is the fast food style of reporting on the internet and, more pertinently, chatrooms. In the age of interactive news reporting everyone can influence the media and therefore the athlete, inadvertently filling part of the role of the coach/teacher/manager and therefore have an effect on young climber’s expectations. And i believe the problem is caused by the fact that most people have very low expectations themselves and often have little concept of what constitutes high level performance. If you look at the two popular climbing forums here-
UKB is a lot better than UKC in its levels of knowledge (with one or two very vocal exceptions) and a lot of people on here have climbed at a high enough level to really have an idea of what the difference between 8b and 9a is, and they have an idea of where real cutting edge climbing is at. However many dont but the levels are such that there is no majority and therefore a balance is met. This probably lead to the way the other topic was approached.
UKC however is heavily populated by people who think E6 or 8a is pretty much living end and anyone climbing those grades is up there with the best. This has an effect of dumbing down everyones expectations, it reduces the level of when something becomes news and therefore the expectations of people in the sport.
With the exception of Steve McClure British sports climbing has not really moved on for 15 years whilst the number of participants has increased and the facilities have both increased in number and improved in standard. This can easily be written off by saying that everyone is into bouldering but whilst there has been a lot of bouldering only walls built the number of good quality lead walls has increased as well and therefore we would assume that participation has as well. We are also told that there is no funding available for young kids! Well sorry but this has always been the case and perhaps its due to the fact that most of the companies doing the funding are global and therefore base who they sponsor on globally significant ascents. So we have better facilities, more participants, it’s easier and cheaper to travel, knowledge of training is much better and more easily available, equipment is better, coaches are available at every wall etc. etc. etc. To me it leaves our low expectations as the key thing that’s holding us back, something that wasn’t an issue in the 80s and 90s when we had the best climbers in the world and therefore 90% of the news was about the cutting edge and it was in hard format so generally written with a bit more care and attention and in much less quantities.
I am not trying to be all doom and gloom as we do presently have a large pool of young climbers who look like they have what it takes to operate in the upper levels of the sport, what Shauna, Mina and now Michaela (see a trend of raised expectation) has done for women’s bouldering levels proves what is possible . But we and the media need to raise our expectations to help them get there.
I am sure a lot of people will think this is just a load of bollocks, so please just ignore it and don’t comment. If you disagree and can put points forward to counter or support my beliefs I would genuinely like to hear them. I have no objective with this it’s just something I have become interested in, mainly with management of teams at work, and am open to other people’s thoughts on the ideas.
I also wasn’t happy with how the thread about Jim Pope’s ascent had been perceived, as I think it was looked at by some, who I don’t think read the whole thread, as being some kind of put down on the lad which I can assure him it never was, well on my behalf anyway.
Sorry about the length of this but I don’t have a blog or anywhere to put it so here seemed a suitable place. I hope it’s of interest to others if not feel free to log pile.
*edit* as I lost it posting via iPad... Anyways.. I have no answers or direct comment, except this concept adds more than a little food for thought, which I find fascinating.... What the future holds.. Christ.. I have no idea! Looking forward to the Further UKB response
:popcorn:
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The UK has a proud history of youths who place highly in european and world youth events who never quite cut it on the senior stage. Maybe the Pygmalion effect is why?
I don't think so. It's because at about the same time they get driving licences and then leave home. That means they can get stuck into real climbing (as in rock), and probably drink, drugs and girls too. Of the three british junior champs I climb with all have gone on to a full and varied climbing career, they just don't bother with comps.
I have made this point before, and on the other thread, but I think a big problem is the cliquey nature of the Sheffield scene, and the numbers of folk it sucks in. I'm sure Gav will dispute this, being a founder member of the School, but if you look at the UK's top sport climbers how many live and train in Sheffield? Gaining the respect of respected elders and peers is an achievement in itself and stymies further ambition. Performing well in training is seen as almost the ultimate - look at the respect and credibility given to Simpson for being good in the School. At the same time the scene tends to create a pecking order and folk seem to settle into their places. I'll add that the worst I've seen this was in Yorkshire, where nobody even tried the projects because Matt and Tim had, and if they couldn't do them you wouldn't be able to. So youths either get sucked in to competitive training with no outcome, or get rejected by the clique for not being strong enough (this is what I assumed Gav meant by overhyped initially).
The current best seem to be those who keep their distance and their focus.
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competitive training with no outcome
Beautiful concept. I want it tattoed on my back.
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I wrote something similar to JB.
About being an outsider to the Sheff scene in the early 90's.
Then deleted it because.
Wrote it again.
Deleted it again.
JB might have summed it.
I think if you want blame something for the lack of progress, then I would first point to the prevailing "Trad is the only real climbing" attitude of the Establishment (you can decide who they are). How many sport crags are there, Outside a certain radius of Sheff?
If you live in the SW, south of Bristol, three? And no low grade sport (when I take my kids I would usually drive to Portland so they can lead a 4/5).
Then there's the climate...
If there is a problem with the "community's" attitude, I would have thought it's a lack of support for hard sport outside of the scene up north.
Maybe it's far better accepted up there, but down here it's not.
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I suspect cliques and cliquiness may not be a uniquely British phenomenon.
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My post came out way whinier than I'd intended.
I lived and climbed outside the UK most of my adult life and didn't really experience too much cliqueiness.
And I've been seriously disappointed with the prevailing attitude in this region since returning in 2008.
There are some great climbers here, but so many old codgers.
Oddly around my age and they have a big influence over their kids attitude.
There's nowt wrong with trad! It's just still the most important playing field in UK climbing and as long as that holds hard sport will be a minority activity.
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Good thread, good replies, but as before it boils down to not having enough good sport climbing and not having enough dry weather. Move UK to Catalyuna and the standards would rise for sure.
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Sorry fiend - i don't think that's right. We've got loads of good sport climbing, right up to the standard needed to be world class. I don't think it's quite the right style to make it easy for people to reach the magic grades, but the quality isn't an issue. And the weather in the UK is actually ideal for hard climbing. Try climbing 9a in Spain in the middle of summer.
Also, I don't recognise JBs characterisation of the sheffield scene. I think the sheffield scene has been quite detrimental, but more because of the amount to which power is idolised, rather than because of an obsession with training.
In fact, up to a few years ago, the Sheff scene was very anti-training. I still remember the reaction Jules got when she returned from Spain and started stamina training to a stopwatch. It was enough to make her feel very uncomfortable about doing it. Now of course, everyone's at the ancap and aerocap and - guess what - standards are going up. Not because everyone's stopped worshiping at the altar of training, but because they're doing the *right* training now.
In other parts of the UK, the trad fetish has been actively harmful, perhaps especially in the SW. It actually held back read standards for a while, since our best tradsters didn't have the sport chops for the hardest lines. John Dunne made this point pretty forcefully way back in the mid 90s at a Q&A at the Kendal film festival...
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john Dunne made this point pretty forcefully way back in the mid 90s at a Q&A at the Kendal film festival...
Go on...
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Yeah, good point about power. You say you don't recognise my characterisation only to give an example of what exactly I was talking about - just substitute 'stamina' or 'power' for 'training' as appropriate.
Agree there isn't much inspiring sport in the UK. The fact we have world class trad and bouldering means folk are understandably going to focus on them instead. The Uk does very well on the world stage given the lack of proper mountains and little quality limestone.
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And the weather in the UK is actually ideal for hard climbing. Try climbing 9a in Spain in the middle of summer.
Are two dry summers making you forget the years when the hard routes were seldom dry? It's hard to dispute that we suffer from extended periods where you can't get on hard routes because they are wet, it's to cold, or they are covered in ice. Both France and Spain seem to have pretty good options for climbing in the high 8's and 9's for most of the year.
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Good thread, good replies, but as before it boils down to not having enough good sport climbing and not having enough dry weather. Move UK to Catalyuna and the standards would rise for sure.
Along with expectations...
Interesting discussion at the crag this afternoon about expectations. One idea mentioned: Ron Fawcett - world's best climber at one point - could have climbed so much harder physically. He did loads of 7cs - 8a. Why not harder? It's not like he wasn't physically capable.
GME, agree totally but I've thought that way for years (ask Doylo), and was going to write something almost identical but I don't have the pedigree, so best that one of the climbing establishment from Sheffield start the debate, it keeps things as they should be. Keep it simple - what levels should be considered significant (in your opinion)? Put a firm number on what you consider a significant level for various disciplines, or you're just talking abstracts. I know what I think is significant and it isn't men repeating 8cs or E8s, or women repeating 8bs or E7s, fine achievements as these are. I'm not sure much is going to change with the way ascents are reported until an editor or website owner has the balls (or tits) to draw firm boundaries, and also, as Stu says, to be a bit more thoughtful about the tone of reporting. And then there'll still be company websites with their own news feeds, which are increasingly looked at by people wanting the latest 'news', and linked to the discussion forums.
JB - Yep. Daniel Coyle's 'Talent Code' and various of the other literature on excellence describe many outliers of excellence and I think it's the same in climbing. Think about it, why were Moffat, Moon et al the best? - it wasn't because they were doing what other climbers around Sheffield were doing. It was because they were doing something different to what everybody else was doing. It's the same with certain other climbers who've achieved excellence.
And you're talking utter bollocks about availability of quality sport as usual. You shouldn't be allowed to post about sport climbing other than to say you're shit at it :P
Weather's obviously an issue and it filters out the less die-hard who might actually be better climbers than the ones prepared to suffer the ming. N.Wales is a paradise of quality new routing at the moment, unlike the Peak/Yorkshire scene. I've just got in from the diamond (mint) where me and a certain 8c+ climber were trying our respective 3 star grade 8 new-routes. Plenty more to go at for those with the motivation. Again it comes down to not doing what other people are doing.
I think the general level has actually jumped quite a bit over the last few years - E5/6 os and 8a-8b ascents are relatively commonplace cf. a few years ago.
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Thinking about the weather theory some more, it seems to me that it’s highly unlikely to be responsible for lower top-end sport-climbing standards amongst brits.
Imagine a sport-climber wad living in a climbing town somewhere in mainland Europe who wishes to climb good quality hard sport routes with year-round reliable conditions. Disregard Spain and France for the moment.
First of all, if they're top-end they're likely to be partly funded to travel to crags...
Say they live in Austria… no year-round conditions there?
Switzerland.. nope.
Czech Republic/Slovakia, no.
Italy - maybe year-round quality hard climbing, but the distance you’d need to travel must be similar to London-Aviemore? (Nibble?)
Belgium, nope.
Germany, no.
How about the US and Canada. Canada’s rock season is short – the Rockies season is May-Sept but the best hard sport crags are high in the alpine with a 3-month season, and you have to hike an hour uphill for anything that could be described as good quality hard sport. West Coast Canada has a similar rock season to the UK. In Canada you have to travel fucking light years to get to the non-local crags. That's why the rock-climbers head south to the US each winter.
The US – year-round quality hard sport? Yeah. But again, you need a spaceship to get between areas. If you live in Boulder, or anywhere, realistically it isn’t year-round quality hard sport routes unless you can spend weeks and weeks road-tripping…
France/Spain. Year-round quality hard sport – tick. It still isn’t easy though – say you live in Chamonix, you still have to travel significant distances in the colder months if you want quality hard sport. Or Paris etc. etc.
Really most Euros, Yanks and Canadians have to travel just as much as any Brit, if they wanted to climb ‘year-round quality hard sport’. Weather can’t be the reason for our lower top-end sport-climbing standards. The UK is actually well-placed, relatively, for access to endless good-quality hard sport climbing - with plenty in the UK itself and a lifetime's worth either a short flight or the equivalent of a Euro’s, Canadian's or Yank's weekend’s drive away.
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Really most Euros, Yanks and Canadians have to travel just as much as any Brit, if they wanted to climb ‘year-round quality hard sport’. Weather can’t be the reason for our lower top-end sport-climbing standards. The UK is actually well-placed, relatively, for access to endless good-quality hard sport climbing - with plenty in the UK itself and a lifetime's worth either a short flight or the equivalent of a Euro’s, Canadian's or Yank's weekend’s drive away.
This would go a long way to explaining why the majority of the world's best sport climbers are from France and Spain then?
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Say they live in Austria… no year-round conditions there?
Winter in the Alps probably has more climbable days than winter in the UK - less damp greyness, more clear crisp days with blue skies - and there's a lot of low down south facing rock in the general vicinity of Innsbruck. Definitely possible to climb there all year round. Don't have personal experience of how much of it is high quality hard stuff.
Germany, no.
Ditto for general weather and there are winter climbable crags in the Frankenjura, but a lot of the steeper stuff tends to seep from autumn onwards. I remember the late Ian V mentioning in a previous incarnation of this thread that he spent a winter in Erlangen and didn't climb any more than he could have done in the UK. So probably right on that one.
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This would go a long way to explaining why the majority of the world's best sport climbers are from France and Spain then?
Quite, and yet goes nowhere in explaining why only one brit has ever climbed 9a+ when other nations face the same route conditions issues as Britain.
(Gaskins? So maybe two)
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Always found Swiss/northern Italy to have long periods of stable dry weather through Jan to March. And I've had some baking hot days at Creci in Feb.
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Quite, and yet goes nowhere in explaining why only one brit has ever climbed 9a+ when other nations face the same route conditions issues as Britain.
(Gaskins? So maybe two)
But how many have climbed the same grade from not-France-and-Spain, only a handful from each country, not significantly more than the UK?
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You'll have to do your own research of nationality but here's a quick google search, only 8a.nu stats as at June 2014
( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AUgngrG97iOlIOr9pxeJsmeE0kzSoiFA0mmhnCEZQu4/edit#gid=191254885 )
It's missing Alex Megos, so I imagine quite a few more must be missing (apols for messed-up layout):
Climber 8c+ 9a 9a+ 9b 9b+ Climbers "Harder" 3.6
adam ondra x x x x x 9b+ 1 2.0 1.0
Magnus Midtbø x x x x 9b 2 8.5 3.6
Ramón JP x x x 9a+ 17 4.9 13.0
David Graham x x x 9a 84 2.0 47.0
Patxi Usobiaga x x x 8c+ 170 169.8
Sachi Amma x x x
Daniel Woods x x x
Daniel Jung x x x
Eduard Marin x x x
Steve McClure x x x
Reffo Silvio x x x
Ethan Pringle x x x
Tino Lois x x x
Edu Marin x x x
Yuji Hirayama x x x
Josune Bereziat x x x
Vasa Vorotnikov x x x
Lukasz Dudek x x
Mateus Haladaj x x
Domen Škofic x x
Toni Lamprecht x x
Dai Koyamada x x
C. Bindhammer x x
Daniel Fuertes x x
Stefano Ghisolfi x x
Stephan Schibli x x
Jon Cardwell x x
Geoffray De F x x
Cedric Lo Piccolo x x
Matej Sova x x
Daniel Moreno x x
David Firnenburg x x
Piotr Schab x x
Matteo Gambaro x x
Iván Hernández x x
Thanasis Htenas x x
Markus Jung x x
Mikail Chernikov x x
Felipe Camargo x x
Ben Spannuth x x
Kévin Aglaé x x
Sasha Digiulian x x
Erik Lopez x x
Rémy Bergasse x x
Riccardo Scarian x x
Greg Sobczak x x
Tom Bolger x x
Pierre Bollinger x x
Gabor Szekely x x
Nick Duttle x x
Iris Mata Quero x x
Guillaume Lebret x x
Mathieu Bouyoud x x
Cedric Lachat x x
Sasha Gerzha x x
A. Bindhammer x x
Diego Marsella x x
Gautier Supper x x
André Neres x x
Alexey Rubtsov x x
Bogdan Rokosz x x
Shoda Shinichi x x
BJ Tilden x x
Manu Lopez x x
Jure Golob x x
Alizée Dufraisse x x
Pierre Soule x x
Peter Kamitses x x
Jan Hojer x x
Alberto Gnerro x x
Geir Söderin x x
Rosta Stefanek x x
Said Belhaj x x
Muriel Sarkany x x
Alex Chabot x x
Piotrek Czarneck x x
Evan Hau x x
Keita Mogaki x x
Markus Bendler x x
Ruben Firneburg x x
Jordan Buys x x
Pedro Bergua x x
Luke Parady x x
Adam Stack x x
Adam Pustelnik x
Evgenya Malamidx
Alex Honnold x
Luis Penín x
Carlos Jiménez x
Alfons Dornauer x
Laurent Hogan x
Justen Sjong x
Erik Grandelius x
Giusep Nolasco x
Christian Münch x
Ivailo Krastev x
Paul Smitton x
Jason Campbell x
Mike Doyle x
Yuriy Dzyubyak x
Izidor Zupan x
Rafal Porebski x
David Fuentes x
Gareth Parry x
Rudi Moroder x
Hugo Meignan x
Petr Blaha x
Tim Unuk x
Marco Jubes x
Kensuke Hamadax
Steve Townshendx
Michal Jagielski x
Roland Wagner x
Alan Cassidy x
Maja Vidmar x
Vonarburg Nicola x
Markus Eberl x
Matthias Schiestl x
Future Roden x
Milky Williams x
Eric Siguier x
Marcell Bombardi x
Alberto Nasarre x
Shawn Diamond x
Matteo Pino x
Andoni Txertudi x
V. Shevchenko x
Maksim Petrenko x
Matic Obid x
Aleksand Taistra x
Mikel Linacisoro x
Urs Moosmüller x
Mikhail Shalagin x
Samuel Darmond x
Jenny Lavarda x
Àlex Hernández x
Marti Galobart x
Keller Rinaudo x
J. Perschmann x
Daniel Fisher x
B. Antheunisse x
Luka Zazvonil x
Stefano Carnati x
Wiz Fineron x
Tatsumi Nitta x
Eva López x
Clinton Martin x
Pavel Lieven x
Tamás Farkas x
Dylan Barks x
G. Glairon-Mondt x
Lars Gudevang x
Bálint Kámvás x
Z. Christophe x
Kymy de la peña x
K. Watanabe x
Adam Mach x
Julien Panigot x
Zeb Engberg x
C. Feistmantl x
robin henon x
Francois Legrand x
Hernan Garcia x
Samuel Hammer x
Arjan de Kock x
Hannah Midtbø x
Jarle Kalland x
V. Motilevsky x
Mar Álvarez x
Natalija Gros x
170 84 17 2 1
2.02 4.94 8.50 2.00
49.4% 20.2% 11.8% 50.0%
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There're at least 3-4 US people missing, so I'd guess alot in the end. Old school guys in particular like Fred, Klem, and Rouhling are all missing as well.....
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Not everybody uses 8a.nu.
Missing 9a+(+) climbers off the top of my head Sharma, Alex Huber, Markus Bock, Alex Megos (Germany starts to come out rather well) Toni Lamprecht ??
There's also Udo Neumann' list (http://www.udini.com/climboid/hardestmoves)
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http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php (http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php)
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Not everybody uses 8a.nu.
Missing 9a+(+) climbers off the top of my head Sharma, Alex Huber, Markus Bock, Alex Megos (Germany starts to come out rather well) Toni Lamprecht ??
It's just meant as a start point to give an idea of the numbers. And the numbers for 9a+ don't really tally with a theory about the weather in Britain, or the availability of hard sport climbing to Brits compared to nations other than France/Spain, holding back top-end standards.
That French site lists Steve McClure as having done 10 grade 9s, is that right?
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Probably including Hubble and link ups. He's not done any abroad I don' t think.
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The site lists 18 illustrious Grimpeurs Britanniques as having done 9a but it should be 16 including a boulder trav (is Stamina-Power link 9a?):
Delete - Dyer, Robins, Barrows, Simpson(???).
Add - Moon (Hubble), Dunning
Boulder traverse (9a?) - Paul Smitton
Unconfirmed - Gaskins, Haston, Dunne
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What I'm getting from these numbers is:
There is a massive (>90%) drop from those achieving 8c+ (roughly 200ish) and those achieving 9a.
And moving on to 9a+?
So, 23 years after Action directe, only two humans have moved convincingly past that point.(or is it three)?
I'm not convinced that 9a is about to become a "Trade route" or commonplace in the way that 8a did.
And proportion of Brits reaching that level is not as far off the mark as I'd imagined.
There have been considerable improvements in shoe/rubber, rope weights, rack weights etc etc since Big Ron (and who knows what he might have done with all that and his raw talent).
Take that 9b+ for a moment.
A Yank and a Czeck, climbing in Spain.
Hardly local for either.
Rambling and incoherent perhaps, but I'm neither stupid nor ignorant of climbing and I do not see compelling evidence or indicators, that the next twenty years will see a similarly large advancement.
The jump from the start of "Training" (arguably Wolfgang) and today has been large and whilst there is room for improvement in training techniques etc, will it really be able to produce such a large shift again?
I agree there is infinite scope for "Harder" and I'll avoid using extreme examples this time as people seem to miss the intended irony.
I agree to an extent with the op's conjecture about praise vs honest appraisal by coaches and the public at large.
But how much that holds back development, or any of the other factors described in the thread; compared to the simple physical difficulties of moving beyond a certain level of difficulty?
Adam O seems most likely to break new ground and I can't wait to see how far he takes it. Perhaps the first generation who have trained from a very early age, so perhaps with the greatest potential we've ever seen.
If they don't make it, in droves, to the bar and pass it; how much further is there?
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A Yank and a Czeck, climbing in Spain.
Hardly local for either.
Sharma lives in Lleida doesn't he?
And when you're a full time climber (or in earlier years have the whole school holidays to play with and incredibly supportive parents), does your original nationality matter that much?
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A Yank and a Czeck, climbing in Spain.
Hardly local for either.
Sharma lives in Lleida doesn't he?
And when you're a full time climber (or in earlier years have the whole school holidays to play with and incredibly supportive parents), does your original nationality matter that much?
Yes.
Opinion only, but the culture in Franc, Spain and Italy; to my certain knowledge , see's climbing as a much more legitimate sport. Britain is only slowly coming around to that way of thinking.
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More interest than I thought in the topic and its done a pretty good job of staying on subject. It has produced all of the responses I suspected and that I feel go a good way to confirming my original thought that our lack of ambition and grudging acceptance that we can’t be as good as the French or Spanish is a major contributor to why we are lagging behind world standards in sports climbing.
Firstly to the question of whether we are behind world standards I would suggest we are. 9b+ has been climbed by 2 people, 9a+ has been done in a few hours and 9a has been on sighted by two people, 8c+ by more and 8c on sights by more again. Other than our geriatric leader the performance of our top climbers has been equalled, if not bettered, by women (and please don’t go down the sexism route as that is not what is implied, standards in women’s climbing have risen dramatically,especially here, but there is still a substantial difference in levels compared to men as there is in most sports).
Looking at the lists that nikeair linked to and taking out the link ups/traverses/myths we have 9 or 10 people that have broken into the 9th grade, more comparable to Poland, Canada, japan and Switzerland than to the big boys.
So I think we are behind.
My response to points raised.
1. Grit/trad/bouldering- I do think that the trad obsession has not helped, but the bouldering thing has taken off all over the world and not held back the level of sports climbing, in fact I would say the opposite in that it has pushed things forward so should have had the same effect here. Despite what Barrows (and Steve) may be trying to convince us all you cannot climb the hardest routes by being weak; the top boys all boulder well up in the high 8s. The trad thing, the medias focus on it and the UKCs readerships obsession with “real climbing” has held sports climbing back, but even more so held trad climbing back as the Pygmalion effect is even stronger in the UK trad scene(E8 headpoints of 30 year old routes are still seen as something to aspire to.) This is exactly the point i am trying to make.
2. Steve McClure- I think Steve being portrayed as some kind of freakishly talented climber who never trains (yeah right) has really had a bad effect on peoples belief. Steve has focused every waking minute of his life on the pursuit of hard redpointing and trained harder than anyone else. The British media love this in every sport, its still so very ungentlemanly to have to work hard at something, so have lapped it up and Steves gone along with it. The early 90s was all about training and it was seen as the thing to do, Malc being the ultimate example. We all believed we could do the hardest routes if we trained really hard as that’s what we were told.
3. We don’t have the right routes/weather here- This has been rolled out for decades and, in relation to the development of our climbers, is a total load of bollocks. Its easier to travel now, cheaper to do so and there is much more choice. Most breakthrough levels in the 80s and 90s happened outside of the UK. I would suggest that Ben and Jerrys first 8bs,8b+s, 8cs were all done abroad on trips, as were the 8As, 8A+s and 8Bs. Hubble was the only 1st that happened on our shores. Ben Davison hinted at this in the interview I did with him on UKC saying it seems easier to go abroad for a trip to focus on a hard route than stay in Britain. Ondra lives in a pretty similar set of circumstances as here, in fact I would say worse. Limited local resource and what there is looks a very similar standard to ravens tor. So yes our lack of rock could be responsible for our lack of hard routes but not lack of hard climbers. Ditto weather.
4. The Sheffield scene- I am not even going to comment on the perception of the so called “scene” that JB hints at as I don’t think its relevant or true. I will however say that the major thing that living in Sheffield brought to the development of standards was the raising of everyone’s expectations. You constantly saw the best climbers doing the hardest things, these things then became very tangible and therefore possible in your mind. You also saw first-hand that it was the ones who worked hardest who were the best, full stop. The development of “honey pots” happens in all sport and is now actively promoted as a way to push athletes on. Team sky relocating its cycling team to Manchester being a classic example. Surround yourself with people who are really good and have hugely high expectations’ and you will be dragged along with it.
5. Oldmanmatt/limits- Another classic example of low expectations making it harder for everyone to believe. We are so far from what is capable it hardly even deserves comment. I think the opposite to you and believe we are in the middle of the biggest improvement in standards we have seen since the 80s. Its probably a different topic but I think 9c will be done within 5 years, 9b will be getting done with regularity and 9a+ will be onsighted. The improvement between 9a+-9b+ has been far quicker than 9a-9a+ and shows no signs of slowing down. Ondra and megos are nowhere near there limit and are 20 years old.
To me all the above points only reinforce my beliefs that we are talking ourselves out of being world class and without a fundamental change in the medias and the public’s attitude will continue to do so.
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The problem in this country is not always the rain or cold it is the humidity. The effect humidity has on performance at the top end is proportional to the hold size. i.e. we often have humid conditions and very small holds.
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The problem in this country is not always the rain or cold it is the humidity. The effect humidity has on performance at the top end is proportional to the hold size. i.e. we often have humid conditions and very small holds.
Another good excuse. See point 3 above.
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Gav do you think it's fair comparing Ben and Jerry's achievements in a time when, as far as I can see, neither of them had to work at all, and were therefore free to spend endless months abroad, with that of today's economic situation where it's not quite as easy to just sign on ever two weeks and live in a shed?
You keep on putting down the excuses raised, and individually they may not amount to much but perhaps there's a cumulative effect?
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A fat, injury prone punter's perspective, having cragged or climbed indoors with three of the GB youth team in the last month.
I know Tara Hayes best I guess, her mum is my physio, we play add-a-hold in the boulder room and on Saturday she won the British Leading Youth A comp to go with the bouldering title she held already. She's number 4 I think in the world boulder rankings for her age. She managed 8a at 13 indoors.
She's hardly been outside climbing at all, a couple of trips to Suirana the highlight and if you mention a boulder problem in the Pass to her - blankness. Very little knowledge of climbing history or climbers BUT she's totally psyched to get into a Sheffield Uni, as that would mean she'd be in the 'honeypot'. For her that's a positive thing, it would only help her to progress.
Then there's my mate's lad Cameron, who won his age group on Saturday as well. The lad's like a sponge, soaks in knowledge and is starting to get outside plenty.
Catrin is only 14, loads of talent and has thoroughly supportive parents like the other two - in fact, I'd say that that's the biggest asset for all three of them have when it comes to comp climbing. Their parents are with them every step of the way, belaying, fetching and carrying. It seems like that makes all the difference to me.
I know Tara would love to be world number 1 one day but I can't think of one conversation with her were she's stated she'd love to climb 9a one day. Catrin's mum thought that 8c was the hardest a woman had climbed. Maybe for a Brit but there's five women who've clipped the chains of a 9a... and I think that that's definitely an issue. I hear people complaining that ukc has too many foreign news reports but how can you ever engender a sense that 9b is a totally realistic goal for someone like Cameron to have, if he never gets to read about people climbing that grade?
9a trad? Maybe I've missed something but I've never read or heard of a Brit having that as an ambition but I've a South African mate who's bouldering like mad at the moment, getting stronger before turning his attention to sport next year. He's already managed 8b trad and 9a trad is certainly a long term goal for him.
Brits are said to love a good looser (Eddie 'the eagle' Edwards) and I think that certainly plays a part in dumbing down ambition in the British. Being seen to be openly ambitious often leads to accusations of being arrogant etc. I find that sad.
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Gav do you think it's fair comparing Ben and Jerry's achievements in a time when, as far as I can see, neither of them had to work at all, and were therefore free to spend endless months abroad, with that of today's economic situation where it's not quite as easy to just sign on ever two weeks and live in a shed?
Personally - I find that an excuse. I've had a few mates potter off and live in vans, with no income at all and that's something I'll be doing myself next year. Hopefully for 18 months and I'm just a punter with a goal of 7a and 7A one day in the future.
Some people are prepared to sacrifice central heating, the latest iPhone etc for their goals and ambitions. I can easily convince myself the sensible thing would be not to head off to Spain but it would be just a long list of excuses. I'm crap, I really am but some days I climb really well for me - I wanna find out what I can do. That's gonna cost me a fortune in lost income alone, I'm shaking my head whilst I write this but I can find no reasons for not going. Only excuses. I'm with Gav on this.
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The more I think about it and read the responses, the more obvious it is how important and not total bollocks the weather / rock issue is. We have, what, 5 or 6 good crags for good hard sport climbing - say, Kilnsey, Malham, Raven Tor, LPT and in theory The Diamond. Out of those, one merely seeps, two both seep and become unfeasibly hot in the sun, one is merely tidal and conditionsy, and the other is tidal, conditionsy, bird-banned and needs a boat to get to. Then being in North Wales / Peninnes, well it rains a fuck of a lot there. And if it doesn't, as JohnM says, it's humid and the fiddly tricky small holds rock sucks. Maybe if we had a load of roadside round-the-compass sport crags on the East Coast of the UK....but we don't.
Sure you can point to some wunderkid from somewhere as awkward to excel in, and hey we have our own wunderkid / wunderelderstatesman too - but they're very much the exception rather than the rule.
Sure getting abroad to have a much better choice of rock and good conditions is relatively easy....but not nearly as bloody easy as having it on your doorstep, because, well, it requires getting abroad, organising flights free time partners accomodation etc etc. Not quite the same as living in Barca and rocking up the La Rambla each weekend. You could live in Sheffield and rock up to Overshadow each weekend and I'd hazard a very vague guess that it won't be in condition quite as much.
What does all this bloody obviousness mean? Nothing to contradict GME's main point about low expectations, but it is another clear factor (not an excuse) that should be taken into account. As a sport climber trying to push the limits in this country, objective issues (routes/rain - too few/too much) make it much harder than many places abroad. WRT this debate maybe the question is how can people deal with / avoid that?? (In perhaps more interesting ways than the Catalunya commute...)
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Thanks Kelvin, you kind of answered the question for me.
I will add a bit to it with the comment that how is it any harder for UK climbers than any other country. Obviously if you live in the hot spots you dont have to travel but somehow it costs more money to be at home and the reason we used to go away for long periods was it was cheaper.
You could spend a month camped below ceuse for the price of an iphone and i am not talking about properly roughing it. £6 camping fees, £10 per day for food and an easy jet flight. Only needs a little bit of hitching and your done. If you have not done your project in 4-6 weeks you probably need to come home and train a bit more anyway, Ondra kind of back this up on Dura Dura.
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we have 9 or 10 people that have broken into the 9th grade, more comparable to Poland, Canada, japan and Switzerland than to the big boys.
I'm not following here. Why would we be up with 'the big boys'? You've chosen four countries with vastly different populations, climbing and climbing culture. I don't know enough about Japan other than their population is twice ours, but competing with the other three would seem to be more like something to celebrate?
Seems like the main problem here is that Gav spent his formative years with Ben and Jerry, during an anomalous time when the UK punched far above it weight in sport climbing. What happened to their hotpot effect eh? And yet we've had world class climbers in other disciplines since. Again, something to celebrate for me.
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The more I think about it and read the responses, the more obvious it is how important and not total bollocks the weather / rock issue is.
Fiend - I hate to make arguments by authority, but you should maybe listen to people who've tried to climb hard sport in the UK and Europe. For the Peak and Yorkshire crags there are days all year round where conditions are excellent. Even in a soaking wet summer the 9a aspirant is guaranteed some primo days on dry holds on Rainshadow. You could make a moany list like the one you wrote about almost every major crag in France or Spain. It's been said in the thread above that Spain and France have loads of good mid-summer options. They have a few, but even there conditions can be highly non-optimal. Flatanger is becoming such an awesome summer destination because the rock is amazing, and because there are very few places in continental Europe that allow hard climbing insummer.
There's a potential issue with the lack of choice in the UK - if you want to climb 9a in this country you don't have a lot of options, so if they don't suit you, you're buggered. And Gav - it's not 'bollocks' to say this makes a difference. It's all very well to say "Go abroad and climb hard then". Obviously, not everyone is free to spend weeks abroad trying hard routes. If you've got a wide range of >9a routes on your back door then people like me with busy jobs can try them. This means more people with the potential to reach the top grades. QED.
Gav seems a bit obsessed that there can only be one answer to the question. It's quite likely that everything mentioned in this thread (including self-limitation) has made a difference to a greater or lesser extent.
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I've tried climbing in Suirana in September... dear god, it was far too hot.
With some financial shrewdness, flights abroad can be had for free. If you have a mortgage, pay that on a credit card that gives air miles or something like. I have a Natwest Your Points card and have started using it for materials at work. It's not much but I've got to buy the materials anyway and the customer has to pay for them... result? I have £130 of points after a year or so. Enough for a flight to Barcelona ;D
I've spent no extra and I have a flight to sunshine and Spanish rock. I know for those that are work focused that time can still be an issue but funding trips abroad needn't cost anymore for someone like me who has to travel two hours to the Peak anyway.
(*having said this, I'll be spending lots of this winter kipping in a 12yr old Berlingo chasing good grit days)
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Assuming you don't believe in some sort of UK exceptionalism, it would be surprising if the UK were to have the best sport climbers in the world on a regular basis. The world climbing population is large, only a small proportion of them are from the UK. Do the mathS. Is it really any more complicated than that?
The other factors even themselves out to a large extent, all countries have their pros and cons, the UK is probably one of the better countries of the world to be a sport climber in (all things considered), but it's no France/Spain.
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we have 9 or 10 people that have broken into the 9th grade, more comparable to Poland, Canada, japan and Switzerland than to the big boys.
I'm not following here. Why would we be up with 'the big boys'? You've chosen four countries with vastly different populations, climbing and climbing culture. I don't know enough about Japan other than their population is twice ours, but competing with the other three would seem to be more like something to celebrate?
Seems like the main problem here is that Gav spent his formative years with Ben and Jerry, during an anomalous time when the UK punched far above it weight in sport climbing. What happened to their hotpot effect eh? And yet we've had world class climbers in other disciplines since. Again, something to celebrate for me.
Well thanks for quite the most negative point i have heard in quite some time. We were lucky back in the 80s and punched way above our weight. Pretty much sums it up really. I suppose i kind of expect it from you though as you profess to not really have an interest.
re the country thing we have a population similar or bigger to the "big boys" and climbing population probably similar (excluding france) with a long history with climbing so why shouldnt we.
And please tell me of the world class climbers we have in other disciplines. Do you mean world class as in something people do around the world that we are good at or more the world series type of thing that gritstone is. I presume its something to do with big walls or mountains which i will be the first to admit i know little about. But if it is pray tell how we are so good at them when we don't have any on our shores and have to travel so far in order to do them.
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Fair enough Stu. In that case can the people who've tried to climb hard sport in the UK and Europe confirm how often their UK 9a-and-upwards projects are in climbable (or workable, even if it's too warm to send) condition compared to their 9a-and-upwards projects abroad, throughout the year overall??
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With some financial shrewdness, flights can be had for free. If you have a mortgage, pay that on a credit crad that gives air miles or something like. I have a Natwest Your Points card and have started using it for materials at work. It's not much but I've got to buy the materials anyway and the customer has to pay for them... result? I have £130 of points after a year or so. Enough for a flight to Barcelona ;D
This is not going to get you up 9a, but anyway it's got nothing to do with money. I've got enough money to fly to Spain every weekend this year if I choose to spend all my savings doing so. I, and many others in the same position, don't have the time to do this. I can spend every weekend at Malham.
I had a post all written about stats, but Bonjoy said it better than I can. We're doing OK in the UK. However, this is a reasonably recent thing. Five years ago things would have looked very different. My personal opinion is that it's because people have started training differently, and because Gav has a point and a few people climbing hard makes it easier for others to do the same
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Well thanks for quite the most negative point i have heard in quite some time. We were lucky back in the 80s and punched way above our weight. Pretty much sums it up really. I suppose i kind of expect it from you though as you profess to not really have an interest.
re the country thing we have a population similar or bigger to the "big boys" and climbing population probably similar (excluding france) with a long history with climbing so why shouldnt we.
Well, you've been given a whole thread full of reasons, but you're only interested in one of them. It's a perfectly good reason, but not the only one
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The more I think about it and read the responses, the more obvious it is how important and not total bollocks the weather / rock issue is.
Fiend - I hate to make arguments by authority, but you should maybe listen to people who've tried to climb hard sport in the UK and Europe. For the Peak and Yorkshire crags there are days all year round where conditions are excellent. Even in a soaking wet summer the 9a aspirant is guaranteed some primo days on dry holds on Rainshadow. You could make a moany list like the one you wrote about almost every major crag in France or Spain. It's been said in the thread above that Spain and France have loads of good mid-summer options. They have a few, but even there conditions can be highly non-optimal. Flatanger is becoming such an awesome summer destination because the rock is amazing, and because there are very few places in continental Europe that allow hard climbing insummer.
There's a potential issue with the lack of choice in the UK - if you want to climb 9a in this country you don't have a lot of options, so if they don't suit you, you're buggered. And Gav - it's not 'bollocks' to say this makes a difference. It's all very well to say "Go abroad and climb hard then". Obviously, not everyone is free to spend weeks abroad trying hard routes. If you've got a wide range of >9a routes on your back door then people like me with busy jobs can try them. This means more people with the potential to reach the top grades. QED.
Gav seems a bit obsessed that there can only be one answer to the question. It's quite likely that everything mentioned in this thread (including self-limitation) has made a difference to a greater or lesser extent.
Stu- i am guilty of thinking about the younger generation here which is what the initial thread was about. Obviously travel becomes harder as we get older and tie our selves down with the trappings of life. if your in your late teens early 20s and want to climb the hardest routes there should be no reason why you cant find the time.
You do seem to manage ok though, and get a good few hard routes done abroad.
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Well thanks for quite the most negative point i have heard in quite some time. We were lucky back in the 80s and punched way above our weight. Pretty much sums it up really. I suppose i kind of expect it from you though as you profess to not really have an interest.
re the country thing we have a population similar or bigger to the "big boys" and climbing population probably similar (excluding france) with a long history with climbing so why shouldnt we.
Well, you've been given a whole thread full of reasons, but you're only interested in one of them. It's a perfectly good reason, but not the only one
Is it a reason? seems like a pretty negative view to me. if it is surely the question is Why did we punch above our weight?
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Fair enough Stu. In that case can the people who've tried to climb hard sport in the UK and Europe confirm how often their UK 9a-and-upwards projects are in climbable (or workable, even if it's too warm to send) condition compared to their 9a-and-upwards projects abroad, throughout the year overall??
I can only give you two data points. I've never had a day on Rainshadow when it was unworkable, and I think it's in a climbable state more than three quarters of the time. In the four weeks I've spent in Baltzola hoping to try a 9a it was wet or condensed out for 3.5 weeks.
I've probably spent around three months of my life climbing in Europe outside the prime sending season of Sep-Apr, and of those I've only had a week or two when the conditions would have been good enough to try a hard route (Ceuse). This includes time spent at spots which are well known for good summer connies, like Gorge du Loup, but they've been dogshit (hot and humid) when I've been there.
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Another factor to consider is, in the loosest sense, class and the parental ambitions of parents.
The amount of time it takes to become an elite performer in any sport is significant and while in many sports the reqards of reaching the elite are sufficient to aspire to the elite (with all the sacrifices and compromises that entails) in climbing that is not a factor and parents would rather their son/daughter worked hard at school, got good grades and went to a good university than risked all that to be 'a great climber' (as climbing 8b is not enough).
Most footballers are 'working class' and from families with low(er) aspirations and as such if they fail to make the Premier League and end up playing in league 2 they're still making a living and perhaps much more than a consultant surgeon, if thy don't make it to that grade and only scrape through with a few GCSE's then that could be in line with expectations.
In other words for the stereotype of the middle class climber the upside of being 'the best' is tiny and the downside of going for it and failing is massive, the reverse is true for those seeking to be elite footballers etc.
I think if you asked most folk on here with children, would you rather they went to a good university and took a good degree and climbed HVS or 'nearly' made it to the elite level but then spent their life doing low paid rope access work (I'm aware some rope access work can be well paid, but I imagine you need more than the ability to climb 8c) I think we know what the answer would be.
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Stu- i am guilty of thinking about the younger generation here which is what the initial thread was about. Obviously travel becomes harder as we get older and tie our selves down with the trappings of life. if your in your late teens early 20s and want to climb the hardest routes there should be no reason why you cant find the time.
You do seem to manage ok though, and get a good few hard routes done abroad.
Even for the younger generation it makes a difference. In Spain you find 9a working class heros who finish their jobs as firemen and go work there local projects. You don't have to have the cash/time to go abroad and so more people have the opportunity. I think you're looking at going abroad and arguing that because it's possible, it doesn't matter whether it's harder or not. If it's harder to climb 9a here, fewer people will do it.
Looking at why we were world class in the 80s - it's impossible to say for sure. It was such a small group of people, and so many things were different between then and now. We got on the systematic training bandwagon early. There was a massive dole scene. Any of those could be part of the reason, but the numbers are so small it could just have been a fluke.
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but anyway it's got nothing to do with money.
You're right - and that's the point I was trying to make. Someone else mentioned today's economic situation as perhaps a reason for not being able to swan off climbing and I was trying to answer that.
I also take your point about being able to spend every weekend climbing at Malham. That's just a long drive away for me and no excuses, I choose to live in the south east.
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Do you mean world class as in something people do around the world that we are good at
Yes, of course. I am not talking about grit headpointing.
I say we should have reason to celebrate our climbing successes and you say that's negative. Well that about sums up this thread - epic negativity from you whilst swearing blind it isn't.
Britain isn't brilliant at sport climbing because there is no compelling reason why we would be. We don't have inspiring sport climbing. Thankfully we have a fantastic track record at adventurous trad climbing, because we have world class trad, it is inspiring and hence where the talent mostly concentrate, but you can't be bothered to learn about it. Then moan that folk do it and not what you'd rather.
Gav has a point and a few people climbing hard makes it easier for others to do the same
I'd agree it should do. So why didn't the Ben/ Jerry/ School produce anyone else world class? Because they were anomalously good. How the fuck that can be construed as a negative statement is beyond me...
I think if you asked most folk on here with children, would you rather they went to a good university and took a good degree and climbed HVS or 'nearly' made it to the elite level but then spent their life doing low paid rope access work (I'm aware some rope access work can be well paid, but I imagine you need more than the ability to climb 8c)
You need considerably less. Can you breathe? Whereas most of our 8c climbers seem to have good degrees.
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We don't have inspiring sport climbing. I don't like sport climbing.
There. Fixed that for you.
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C'mon Stu, on a world stage? This is really the root of the debate - in Spain sport climbing *is* climbing. In the UK it isn't. That's the problem, if you want to be negative and call it a problem.
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I think the Brit quality thing is a touch misleading. Britain may have world class sport climbs in quality terms, but the climbing just isn’t as fun as elsewhere. Think Schubert versus the Venga Boys. You can argue the former is of better quality than the latter, but which is going to get more people dancing at the wedding?
PS I like UK sport climbing... but not half as much as Spanish sport climbing.
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Jerry liked the Venga Boys, perhaps that's it Jon? You've nailed it.. More cheesy Euro pop.
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I say we should have reason to celebrate our climbing successes and you say that's negative. Well that about sums up this thread - epic negativity from you whilst swearing blind it isn't.
Britain isn't brilliant at sport climbing because there is no compelling reason why we would be. We don't have inspiring sport climbing. Thankfully we have a fantastic track record at adventurous trad climbing, because we have world class trad, it is inspiring and hence where the talent mostly concentrate, but you can't be bothered to learn about it. Then moan that folk do it and not what you'd rather.
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First i have absolutely no issue with trad climbing, or any aspect of climbing, nor do i think one is superior to another but do we really have world class trad climbing compared to other countries. Do loads of climbers come to the UK to do our trad routes from abroad because its world class or do they come here as it has a very healthy scene if your into trad climbing created by the attitude of the people involved in it rather than the quality of what we climb up. I would suggest its the latter. Everything that is said about UK sports climbing not being inspiring compared to the Euro hot spots could easily be applied to our trad climbing as well if compared say to to the valley etc.
Also I have never once suggested we don't celebrate all aspects of our climbing or suggest you saying that was negative.
I do think your comment that we punched above our weight is exactly the type of response that does not help future generations try to achieve what i feel they are capable of. It doesn't stop them but doesn't help.
You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers and tell them not to bother trying to get really good at sports climbing as they have no chance. All our crags are shit, it always rains, we were just lucky before and no one is interested anyway. Not particularly helpful.
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Where else in the world has the wealth and variety of accessible, well documented, normal trad (not just big walls) that the UK does in such a small area??
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You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers and tell them not to bother trying to get really good at sports climbing as they have no chance. All our crags are shit, it always rains, we were just lucky before and no one is interested anyway. Not particularly helpful.
Your viewpoint could be paraphrased in such disparaging terms quite easily!
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You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers and tell them not to bother trying to get really good at sports climbing as they have no chance. All our crags are shit, it always rains, we were just lucky before and no one is interested anyway. Not particularly helpful.
Your viewpoint could be paraphrased in such disparaging terms quite easily!
Yes quite easily. I appologise as it brings nothing to the conversation but JBs comment " Seems like the main problem here is that Gav spent his formative years with Ben and Jerry, during an anomalous time when the UK punched far above it weight in sport climbing. What happened to their hotpot effect eh" deserved such a retort.
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Gav could you possibly sum up why you believe that Ben and Jerry weren't outliers and that the UK has been underperforming in sport climbing terms since? I guess this is sort of the root of some of the disagreement on the thread.
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Also, are we talking about why youngsters with raw talent/ support (in sport climbing) don't perform as well as should be expected, or why the pool of talent isn't bigger in the first place?
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Someone from Barcelona who lived over here for a year was saying he was astounded by how we could climb outdoors after work all summer. They don't have our long light summer evenings over there apparently.
I think the reason for so many of us all being crap is because the "go with the flow" way to go climbing in the UK entails getting disco leg terrors on runout E1s and believing that if you are scared then you need to keep doing more of that until it no longer scares you (however long that may take).
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Another interesting discussion. I’ve enjoyed reading it all, so thanks for the contributions.
FWIW, whilst I don’t doubt that Pygmallion *could* contribute in some way to a glass ceiling kind of effect, it’s clear to me that no one has much more than tenuous anecdotes to bring to the table. I think Stu mentioned that all of the above are likely to play some kind of role. That seems sensible.
I have a few points:
1. When referring to ‘loads of studies’ supporting one point or another it’s worth bearing in mind how unfortunately correlative much of psychology, sports science and the like are. We are rabid pattern seekers.
2. Focussing on the minuscule number of the very best in a search for the “why?” is misguided because chance, genetics and circumstance are going to trump everything, IMO. I think a lot more can be learnt by looking at achievement at the mid-high end. Probably in the >8c neck of the woods.
3. It’s interesting to me that this debate is being had at all – I think that the rise of comps as a major component of the climbing game has heraded a shift towards professionalism and competitiveness in the sport more generally.
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You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers
My god, the irony! From the man who started all this by having a pop at one of Britain's brightest young talents. How do you motivate your sales force, threat of dismissal? When young climbers ask me for advice I give it based on what might help them enjoy a lifetime of the wonderful diversity climbing has to offer. Not some cod-psychology that might possibly engender a competitive winning mindset.
The effect is named after the Greek myth of Pygmalion. Pygmalion was a sculptor who fell in love with a statue he had carved.
On the other hand, maybe it does explain why the School never produced any winners.
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Absolutely spot on JB, it may come as a shock to some, but there's more to life than climbing x grade or y (or indeed why).
If you look at sports where people are pushed, coached and compete you'll find for every 'winner' there are hundreds of losers who end up hating the game, stopping playing it and being damaged by the whole process (there will be a few who carry on for the love it it, but not many).
How many competitive swimmers, gymnasts (who don't make it) and so on are still participating in their late 20's (not exactly a ripe old age), how many people who love tennis, golf and so on who are good but not 'elite' enjoy their sport into their 60s or beyond.
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Ok, despite my negativity with regards to the realms of the possible, which is blue sky thinking and speculation.
I'm new to the Coaching/wall running thing (or at least it's been 20 years since I was last involved) and I lived overseas from 91 until 2008 (and even then I was commuting to France, Italy and Spain two or three times a month and not climbing much here, until 2013).
But I'm trying hard to develop the scene here in the Bay and encourage kids into the sport.
And getting a lot of shit for it!
If I start listing the incidents, then it's too obvious who I'm talking about.
But, the anti-Sport/Bouldering league is endemic, vitriolic and aggressive.
I don't recall or know of any Sport climbers/Equippers who treat it as some kind of religious crusade, but can point to many Choppers who do.
My conjecture, to your assertion, Gme; is that there is not enough encouragement for young climbers.
Sloper makes a very valid point in terms of the socio-economic dynamic and the points mentioned by all the other commentators on this thread are all valid (for a given value of "valid").
And it matters not how hard I personally climb (and my days of climbing anything of any interest are long gone), I still remember how it felt to try bitd and see my guys training and pushing themselves every day.
So I give them free training and encouragement.
And actually get hate mail for it.
Now, it may be a very different environment up north, I admit I've not been t'peak these 20 years past, so I don't know how it feels to be there.
My (very, very mild) ire was raised a little on the original thread, slightly, by Dave's "who or what" comment (have I made it clear how minor I mean that to sound)?
But I know how your comments were perceived by Jim and his peers, because it has been much discussed across Farcebook and Twatter and amongst the young guys at work. (They think UKB are bunch of old farts).
I get where you are going with it.
I agree.
I'm sorry my worries about physical limitations have given you the impression I think it's all pointless (don't just tell me we haven't gone anywhere near as far as we can go, tell me why you think it, suggest how we can do it. Because I'll be right behind any viable strategy and you are better at that than me).
I believe you cannot have the stick without a bloody good carrot and I'm struggling to find that carrot.
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Absolutely spot on JB, it may come as a shock to some, but there's more to life than climbing x grade or y (or indeed why).
If you look at sports where people are pushed, coached and compete you'll find for every 'winner' there are hundreds of losers who end up hating the game, stopping playing it and being damaged by the whole process (there will be a few who carry on for the love it it, but not many).
How many competitive swimmers, gymnasts (who don't make it) and so on are still participating in their late 20's (not exactly a ripe old age), how many people who love tennis, golf and so on who are good but not 'elite' enjoy their sport into their 60s or beyond.
In fairness most of the tennis/golf/etc are people who started as adults, likely long after the "competitive" window.
And while I've no idea on gymnasts, we have an active and robust masters swimming program locally with competitions and such, so that doesn't seem all that different to me. There are also loads who swim for exercise and enjoy it much like those who go play tennis, but don't ever compete. Rambling and disjointed, but I'd say there's not much difference in sport types. I played competitive soccer into college. Got burnt out and didn't play for close to 10 years (also fell in love with climbing so that filled the spot instead). Came back into it and enjoy playing again.
I'd guess that many of the "losers" ended up in a sport they were good at and derived joy from winning, rather than playing. Then when they hit their peak and weren't winning easily the enjoyment faded and they quit. But I've ne real idea. I know many of our local kids go through the climbing team and move into other sports in college. they climbed as a reasult of the socail group, rather than personal love for it.
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Oldmanmatt I'm genuinely shocked by the grief you seem to be getting for trying to motivate and inspire younger climbers. If I wasn't at the other end of the country (Cumbria) I'd freely offer my coaching time to help sort this out.
If you want any info and [evidence based] reading on fostering motivation in young people, PM me.
John
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You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers and tell them not to bother trying to get really good at sports climbing as they have no chance. All our crags are shit, it always rains, we were just lucky before and no one is interested anyway. Not particularly helpful.
But that's really not what people are trying to say here! The way I see it, the argument isn't that climbing hard sport in the UK is impossible. After all, I'm pretty sure that everyone here agrees it's possible to climb hard sport in the UK? The argument seems to be that a variety of factors act together to make it harder for the UK to produce people who climb hard sport when compared to places like France and Spain.
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I know how your comments were perceived by Jim and his peers, because it has been much discussed across Farcebook and Twatter and amongst the young guys at work. (They think UKB are bunch of old farts).
Not so daft, then. ;)
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(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/06/d9c7dc372ad643fff84cb47d528ddcb3.jpg)
There is already quite a lot of "stick" available.
Surely it's not the place of the "media" to provide it?
A coach, yes.
Mates, yep.
Peers? Definitely.
But any perceived negativity, made publicly, can be detrimental and discouraging for an individual. A youngster even more so.
So, the UKB debating society has been arguing the point "This house believes that undue media/public hype of mediocre achievement is holding back British sport climbing standards".
Whilst missing the irony, that a Mod of the second largest forum of the said media/public, did not know who the catalyst for the whole debate was. Had not heard any hype prior to that point and the catalyst went on to prove some merit at competition, within a week.
It maybe part of the problem, but it is not THE problem.
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Oldmanmatt I'm genuinely shocked by the grief you seem to be getting for trying to motivate and inspire younger climbers. If I wasn't at the other end of the country (Cumbria) I'd freely offer my coaching time to help sort this out.
If you want any info and [evidence based] reading on fostering motivation in young people, PM me.
John
That was written while I was typing.
I'll pm you, for sure. Ta.
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Absolutely spot on JB, it may come as a shock to some, but there's more to life than climbing x grade or y (or indeed why).
It's a point of view I've heard, but never from anyone who's actually climbed grade x. I wonder what that means.
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Yeah the threads not about pottering about diversifying it's about smashing big numbers!
On the other hand, maybe it does explain why the School never produced any winners.
Moon, Moffatt, Sellars, Smith.
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Yeah the threads not about pottering about diversifying it's about smashing big numbers!
On the other hand, maybe it does explain why the School never produced any winners.
Moon, Moffatt, Sellars, Smith.
Bennett.
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Wtf jb why the massive personal attack. I knew that you wouldn't agree with me on this and have kind of hinted so right from the off.
First I didn't start the subject of whether Jim popes ascent was newsworthy that was the owner if the site. I also went out of my way to try to make sure it wasn't an attack on him. I don't need to bully kids two years older than my own son to get my rocks off.
I then proceeded to isolate this conversation from the original thread to distance it as for once I wanted to have a relatively serious conversation into something. I took time to write both my original post and response and all went well until you posted a half assed attempt at dismissing me and my idea of "hotpot" eh!
I then have a little go back only using ideas such as uninspiring crags , shit weather and an anomaly all of which have been mentioned on this thread and suddenly you have a totally personal go at me. My slightly factious post only underlined how I thought all of these points would not help motivate people to want to try to get really good.
I was aware that you have issues with sports climbing and the idea that it is some how wrong to want to treat our pastime as a sport but I didn't realise that you were so fucked up over it. And wtf did the school ever do to you.
Thanks for basically fucking up what was a reasonable thread.
You have issues.
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Yeah the threads not about pottering about diversifying it's about smashing big numbers!
On the other hand, maybe it does explain why the School never produced any winners.
Moon, Moffatt, Sellars, Smith.
Bennett.
Seb Grieve ;)
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Absolutely spot on JB, it may come as a shock to some, but there's more to life than climbing x grade or y (or indeed why).
It's a point of view I've heard, but never from anyone who's actually climbed grade x. I wonder what that means.
Actually, I think that's something you hear from those at the very top quite often.
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And sloper. As a legal man you should read the facts through. I said from the very beginning that it was about performance climbing. Nothing wrong with anyone enjoying climbing in what ever form, style or grade they wish. We all do it for fun but is it not possible that driving yourself to tick high numbers could be more fun for some than being an average all rounder.
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We also have climbers with the potential to climb in the 9's but seemingly without the motivation. I've little doubt Bransby and Ed Hamer could climb 9a/+ if they really wanted too but the mindset to specialise that much isn't present.
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Maybe they're just as shit at training as you ;)
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We also have climbers with the potential to climb in the 9's but seemingly without the motivation. I've little doubt Bransby and Ed Hamer could climb 9a/+ if they really wanted too but the mindset to specialise that much isn't present.
My point entirely. I think the pool of talent here is massive but for some reason the motivation to do the hardest routes is not there. And I feel the media and general attitude of uk climbers doesn't help. Everyone needs there egos massaging when you can get this done by doing averagely hard routes the reward/effort ratio to do really hard routes may make it all not seem worth it.
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But I'm trying hard to develop the scene here in the Bay and encourage kids into the sport.
And getting a lot of shit for it!
You seem to be doing a reasonable job - on my odd visits down the Cove this summer I've been impressed how the local youth have been ripping it up on Ferocity Wall... 8)
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But in the spirit of the thread Matt, don't let the kids think they're too good else they'll never get anywhere... (try and make them all think they can be better than Ellis for starters :whip: )
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Can we get back on topic and deal with some actual real-life data instead of half-baked opinion. All this negative bullshit and presuming to have an insight into what other people find inspiring (or should find inspiring) is just that, bullshit, and has nothing to do with the question.
GME's premise for the debate is that the UK sport-climbing scene has relatively low expectations of its top-performers (in sport climbing) cf. other nations, and that this is holding back standards to some degree. The data is key to showing if GME's premise holds any water.
So, what standard are we talking about: 9a+.
How many brits have climbed 9a+: 1 person.
And how many people from other nations have climbed 9a+:
Germany 7.
US 10.
Argentina 1.
Austria 2.
Korea 1.
Spain 9.
France 5.
Italy 2.
Japan 1.
Norway 1.
Russia 1.
Switzerland 1.
Czech Republic 1.
Source: http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php (http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php) No split grades included (including split 9a/+ grades significantly increases the numbers for lots of other nations, but not for the UK). Gaskins isn't included - no dodgy data!
Then, also compare the figures for 9a. (it paints a different picture to above)
And compare the figures for females who've climbed 9a+, 9a and 8c+.
Then, the next step is look at how those other nation's circumstances compare to ours.
Do all that, present the data in a clear format and we can have a well-informed debate.
Slackline, we need you, come back all is forgiven!
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Well, that would be misleading.
For a start, you'd have to lump all of the European countries together to compare them with the US.
And then wonder why so few Yanks are making the grade?
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And while we're on the subject of underacheiving - Stu, not being able to even get down the grass bank to get to the start of the Diamond hand-line is taking the underachievement biscuit. No Fiend - you do not need a boat to climb on the Diamond and nobody has done since 2009, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good prejudice ;D
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Well, that would be misleading.
For a start, you'd have to lump all of the European countries together to compare them with the US.
And then wonder why so few Yanks are making the grade?
Oh ffs, someone just do the math.
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Can we get back on topic and deal with some actual real-life data instead of half-baked opinion. All this negative bullshit and presuming to have an insight into what other people find inspiring (or should find inspiring) is just that, bullshit, and has nothing to do with the question.
GME's premise for the debate is that the UK sport-climbing scene has relatively low expectations of its top-performers (in sport climbing) cf. other nations, and that this is holding back standards to some degree. The data is key to showing if GME's premise holds any water.
So, what standard are we talking about: 9a+.
How many brits have climbed 9a+: 1 person.
And how many people from other nations have climbed 9a+:
Germany 7.
US 10.
Argentina 1.
Austria 2.
Korea 1.
Spain 9.
France 5.
Italy 2.
Japan 1.
Norway 1.
Russia 1.
Switzerland 1.
Czech Republic 1.
Source: http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php (http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php) No split grades included (including split 9a/+ grades significantly increases the numbers for lots of other nations, but not for the UK). Gaskins isn't included - no dodgy data!
Then, also compare the figures for 9a. (it paints a different picture to above)
And compare the figures for females who've climbed 9a+, 9a and 8c+.
Then, the next step is look at how those other nation's circumstances compare to ours.
Do all that, present the data in a clear format and we can have a well-informed debate.
Slackline, we need you, come back all is forgiven!
I think it would be interesting to get something that accounts for population/climbing population. The UK has pretty good stats on how many people participate in climbing - wonder what it's like for other countries?
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If you want to continue enjoying this thread while driving, listen to Robbie Savage and Danny Mills discussing the England football team on 5live. And whenever they say the word 'football' simply exchange it with the word 'climbing.'
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Which one's the trad zealot?
Danny Mills is my guess.
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Can we get back on topic and deal with some actual real-life data instead of half-baked opinion. All this negative bullshit and And how many people from other nations have climbed 9a+:
Germany 7.
Spain 9.
France 5.
Here's something else that occurs to me as maybe worth measuring:
Five of the seven Germans climbed 9a+ in Germany and/or within an hour's drive of where they live. Only two followed the "just go and climb friendlier hard routes somewhere else then" plan.
The French all did theirs in France. The Spaniards all in Spain.
Being able to pursue your project from the comfort of you own living room may affect the probability of success after all.
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Germany has quite a lot of 9a+ climbs I believe, which are in their own way friendly, especially if you climb and train a lot on pockets.
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Germany without doubt has more grade 9s than we do by a good margin. However all of the other points that have been made about British routes such as weather, conditions, specialized, uninspiring (to some) could be directed at them.
So yes it obviously makes it easier to climb 9a if its on your doorstep but having to travel should not be seen as an barrier to success. I have not got time to go through the whole list but i would suggest that a fair amount of climbers will have done there hardest routes away from home.
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Not as many as you might think. Only two on 8a.nu, four if you prefer to believe Markus Bock's website (http://www.markusbock.com/charts).
Increasingly relatively rapidly as such things go, as Alex Megos works his way through Markus Bock's stash of unfinished projects.
Plus that French site has Alex Huber's Om as "only" 9a/+ and in Austria, but I'm pretty sure it's actually in Germany.
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Wtf jb why the massive personal attack
Tit for tat Gav.
You've ignored or dismissed a lot of sensible points on this thread. It's tedious 'discussing' something with a brick wall with tunnel vision. I don't have a problem with sport climbing, it's my least favourite form of my favourite activity. I still do a fair bit of it. How much trad or winter or alpine do you do?
I am genuinely interested (as are others) as to why you don't think Ben and Jerry were outliers. No response. Whether they were or not, why no hotpot effect? Genuine question, dismissed. Sellers, Smith, aren't these exactly the sort of under-performers you're talking about?
I don't agree the UK under performs at climbing. You are ignorant of our high performance in other disciplines and then make random comparisons to other countries. Did you know Poland dominated high altitude mountaineering for many years? Did you know London walls are full of Polish climbing mutants? Did you know Japan produced Yuji, perhaps the closest thing Jerry had to a successor as a winner in every discipline? Did you know the Japanese have been the most radical exponents of single-push alpine style in the last ten years? Did you know that most of the best mountaineers in the world also climb hard on bolts? Have you been to Switzerland, or Canada, or France or Spain? We are not the same as them, why should we be better or worse than these countries? How does the Uk so regularly feature in the Piolet d'or when we don't even have a single fucking mountain worthy of the term? How is it we have the best female granite climber in the world and the two most accomplished male crack climbers?
I don't agree it is a problem that the best young British climbers don't have a narrow focus on redpointing. I don't agree it's 'a problem' the mags don't push a redpointing agenda. Otherwise we wouldn't have the above. I think it's a fantastic thing that we excel in other disciplines. Yet you construe that as as being negative. WTF?
Others have made plenty of points about why it might or might not be harder to climb hard bolted limestone in Britain. You've dismissed or ignored their points.
The problem with your argument is that it stands on a very wobbly tower of these assumptions. And then it's not a very good argument to boot. Jerry talks in his book about getting in a magazine for the first time and what a massive deal that was for him. If you'd been editor he wouldn't have got in.
Some kids thrive on the carrot, some the stick. You seem obsessed with waving a stick whilst stood on a wobbly tower. Get down before you hurt yourself.
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I am pretty much going to ignore you as you seem bent on having ago at me rather than a theory i have as to why I think SPORTSCLIMBING in britain is lagging behind the rest of the world.
I have neither claimed to have knowledge of other aspects of climbing or linked them to this argument. In fact i do not know how to put it more clearly that the whole topic is about SPORTSCLIMBING.
I think i am responding to all points raised but am taking my time to try to give a decent answer back. i have not dismissed all the points at all if you read my posts just put an opposite opinion. The only one i really have dismissed is the weather issue as i do think its not true.
The one point you raised that i will respond to is the bit about what you call outliers.
In 95/96 the hardest confirmed grade in the world was 9a (even though action direct was 8c+/9a at the time) There were a hand full (3-4 routes) of this grade and maybe 3-4 people who had climbed them. Pretty similar to today where we have 3 routes at 9b+ and 2 people have climbe that grade.
At this time in the UK we had the following people climbing at that grade or 1 grade less than that grade. ( Equivilent to 9b+ 9b or 9a+ today)
Ben Moon
Jerry Moffat
Malcom Smith
John Gaskins
John Dunne
John Welford
Nic Sellers
Mark Pretty
Neil Carsons
Steve Dunning
Tony Mitchell
Mark Leach
Ian Vickers
Possibles (i cant remember dates)
Robin Barker
Rich Heap
Stevie Haston
So you can see that Moon and Moffatt where far from the exceptions 4 people climbing the hardest grade and potentially 16 people climbing with in 1 full grade of the top.
And to say that Malc and nic under performed at sports climbing when Malc climbed the hardest route in the world at 18 years old and Nics resume was pretty much on par with jerrys shows your lack of knowledge.
I always try to speak to people on these sites in a manner i would in the pub. You obviously dont as if you spoke to me as you have it would not have ended up amicably.
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Fiend - you do not need a boat to climb on the Diamond and nobody has done since 2009, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good prejudice ;D
I'm not prejudiced you dome (not least because I think North Wales sport limestone is actually worth climbing), from everything I've seen it looks like a very good crag. But, take the boat out of the equation and even then I suspect it's just slightly trickier to access from the road and get in condition than Siurana or Santa Linya??
Also what Muncehauser wrote is pretty damn important.
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Trickier to access from the road than Siurana/Santa Linya - yes. But in much better condition in July, August and September than those crags are if you want to climb hard routes.
And miles quicker to access than Ceuse, which is also too hot in July /August.
The conditions argument is a non-starter for me. Ask Pete Robins how many days he's climbed at the Diamond this season (and every season) and how many of those days were ming - you'll get the answer 'about 2 in 10'. That's my experience too - only started climbing again in early September and I've been projecting at the Diamond 6 days so far. Of those 6 days, 1 day has been greasy and the rest have been mint. And that's late Sept/early Oct. In late July through Aug to early Sept it's better again.
The window will close soon for sure, lucky then that euro crags are just coming into season...
Not specifically aimed at you Fiend (I know you're psyched) but as usual, high psyche and actual experience trump pessimism and hearsay.
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Well thanks Gav I appreciate a considered response. I am really not trying to have a go.
I must admit I didn't realise several of those had climbed 8c+ in 1996. I guess for context though I'd need to know how many French/ Spanish/ Poles etc were at the same level.
What I'm not convinced of is the reality of trying to separate sports climbing. Following the late eighties/ early nineties sport boom the fashion swung back to trad in the late nineties. Worldwide massive advances were made in free climbing big-walls. Several of the world's best sport climbers put their energies in that direction. Likewise bouldering was not seen as proper climbing until the late nineties.
Nowadays we have a more fractured scene; many/ most of our top sport climbers are not exclusively sport climbers, whereas from that list I can only see Heap and possibly Haston who put any effort into freeing big walls - which now takes up big chunks of most top UK climbers' lives, those for instance that Doylo suggest could climb 9 if they wanted. In the UK big trad has more sponsorship potential too than hard sport - I daresay it makes for a more interesting slideshow or article.
You can ignore as irrelevant if you want, but it clearly isn't. Energies are directed elsewhere.
Malc climbed the hardest route in the world at 18 years old and Nics resume was pretty much on par with jerrys shows your lack of knowledge
I'm well aware of what they did. But neither put up the hardest route in the world or were recognised as the best climber in the world. Ben and Jerry did. Hence the suggestion that comparatively, they underperformed. Do you honestly think Malcolm fulfilled his potential post-Hubble?
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JB have a look at some of Malcs 8B/+s at Dumby, they are pretty :sick: :strongbench: Maybe all will be revealed in Chris / Shark's endlessly delayed Malc film...
The conditions argument is a non-starter for me. Ask Pete Robins how many days he's climbed at the Diamond this season (and every season) and how many of those days were ming - you'll get the answer 'about 2 in 10'. That's my experience too - only started climbing again in early September and I've been projecting at the Diamond 6 days so far. Of those 6 days, 1 day has been greasy and the rest have been mint. And that's late Sept/early Oct. In late July through Aug to early Sept it's better again.
That might be something to do with having the nouse to go down on the right days, rather than the number of "right days" being extremely large. I've only been rained off the North / West of Scotland once out of about 12-15 days up there this year, that doesn't mean it's always in condition...
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Again, I'm well aware of Malc's bouldering. But sport he seems to have lost interest? We are talking sport climbing in isolation remember - loads of our best climbers concentrated on bouldering.
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Sorry yeah I forgot about SPORTCLIMBING. Maybe he just found bouldering at Dumby far more inspiring than British sport climbing?
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In the UK big trad has more sponsorship potential too than hard sport - I daresay it makes for a more interesting slideshow or article.
To you maybe but not everyone. There is a new group of keen climbers coming from the walls that have little interest in this and that is who i have been talking about. The media and vociferous parts of the web shout down sports climbing as not real and therefore this effects both the support and where the (limited) sponsorship money goes to. Thus this has the effect of reducing the motivation of the climbers to put the effort into red pointing really hard routes.
If you put to one side personal achievement as a motivational reason(which is always going to be anyone who gets to the tops driving force or they wont get there) can you not see how this could put someone off sacrificing, time, money and effort into training in gym for 12/24/36 months to get to there peak level to do a properly hard route only for the media to report things much easier with the same level of excitement.
For once you seem to be agreeing with me as that was the basis of the whole topic and i agreed trad had effected it in my second post.
And from the little knowledge i have of mountaineering i think the same issue of what and what is newsworthy exist there as well.
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Good thread. Seems there are a couple of interlinked questions:
(1) Do the cream of British climbing youth get into sport-climbing as opposed to other climbing disciplines? If not, why not? Is hard British sport climbing seen as uninspiring or are there cultural factors at play - prejudices against sport climbing by early mentors, the Pygmalion effect?
(2) Do the British underperform in sport climbing versus comparable nations in terms of population, funding, climbing participant population? If yes, why? Do we have worse conditions, on the whole, than rival nations? Or do we have a problem with over-hyping early promising performances, leading to the Pygmalion effect and the suppression of ambition? Or are there other reasons, like a British cultural attitude that frowns upon 'trying hard' as opposed to 'just being good'?
I don't know the answer to (1). Personally I'm most into sport climbing and bouldering as I enjoy the nature of these activities more, but I do think the scenery and lines for British trad climbs are way more inspiring than their limestone cousins, on the whole. Depends what each individual is like I think and what motivates them.
As for (2), I don't know what the stats will tell us. I remember in school it was OK/cool to be good at something, but only if you weren't seen to be a 'try hard'. It's the 'talent' vs 'hard work' debate. I think there is an element of British culture where it's OK to have talent, but not to work hard. This is an awful attitude. Not sure it's the same for boys and girls or in all strata of society. I think as a nation/culture we tend to underperform in the big, popular sports - the ones that everyone plays at school - and do OK in more niche sports where it's the passion of the individual that gets them into it in the first place, and drives them on. In the former, people take them up because they have talent, in the latter, people pursue them out of love.
I'd have thought climbing falls into the latter category, so we should have as good a chance as having top performers as any other comparable nation. My 2p.
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To be fair Malc did put up the first Scottish 9a (Hunger) a few years back and those routes he repeated in the mid nineties like Evolution and Progress are regarded as 8c+ now.
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I'm well aware of what they did. But neither put up the hardest route in the world or were recognised as the best climber in the world. Ben and Jerry did. Hence the suggestion that comparatively, they underperformed. Do you honestly think Malcolm fulfilled his potential post-Hubble?
I don't think malc reached his potential post hubble. He did do the 1st ascent of Scotlands only 9a however and probably still one of the fastest british ascents of an 8c, but yes i think he could have done harder. Like a lot of people he got into bouldering during its boom in the late 90s put up some of our hardest boulder problems including a couple of traverses that were among the hardest bits of climbing in the world at the time and repeated what was at the time the hardest boulder problem in the world. So he did go on from Hubble.
I have also not suggested that being 1/2 or 1 grade behind the best in the world is under performing. If we had a bunch of climbers at Steves level in the UK this conversation wouldn't even be happening. But then i also suspect that we wouldn't be seeing news at the levels we do now either.
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The one point you raised that i will respond to is the bit about what you call outliers.
In 95/96 the hardest confirmed grade in the world was 9a (even though action direct was 8c+/9a at the time) There were a hand full (3-4 routes) of this grade and maybe 3-4 people who had climbed them. Pretty similar to today where we have 3 routes at 9b+ and 2 people have climbe that grade.
At this time in the UK we had the following people climbing at that grade or 1 grade less than that grade. ( Equivilent to 9b+ 9b or 9a+ today.
Not sure you're equivalence is too good since the current top sports routes are heavily dominated by only 2 climbers. As far as I know as well as being the only people to have done 9b+ Ondra and Sharma are the only confirmed ascents of proper 9b routes (as opposed to boulder / route link ups). If you drop the grades to 9b, 9a+, 9a the comparison of with the 90s doesn't look quite so bad, though I still would agree that we dropped in the 'world rankings' for sport climbing.
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I'll declare my position before I go on.
In my view sports climbing is shit, it's boring, tedious and not really climbing at all. ohh and its overhyped and over graded too. (I haven't had a punter point for a while and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms).
Anyway, the point is why should sports climbing as GME seems to indicate be seen as an area where there is a need to 'compete' at all and does it matter that there are too few (if indeed there are) British climbers at the elite level.
In simple terms it doesn't matter at all.
Even if I'm wrong and it does matter greatly of all the factors that are likely to reduce the number of climbers from the nominal level to the actual level I would suggest that the 'pygmalion effect', the climbing media and so on are almost certain to be trivial beside the major factors which are, the number of hard climbs, their accessability, weather and other factors.
If you have 3 9as then you could find them all don't suit your style, if you have 100 then the chances are a few willl and therefore you'll become a '9a climber'.
If you can work a 9a 10/20 minutes away from your house your chances of success must be higher than if you have to travel from Sheffield to LPT, Malham etc.
Right off to be a bastard.
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i agreed trad had effected it in my second post.
Well yes of course. But you seem to think limited ambitions is more important though? I think it's irrelevant by the time you consider the distractions of trad, bouldering, big walls etc.
Like a lot of people he got into bouldering during its boom in the late 90s put up some of our hardest boulder problems including a couple of traverses that were among the hardest bits of climbing in the world at the time and repeated what was at the time the hardest boulder problem in the world. So he did go on from Hubble
Agreed, But but not in sport. He inspired a lot of the current stars, who've done similarly. Again, you can't treat sport in isolation.
My beef is also the pejorative terms you're using. I think sport gets the attention it merits in the UK. We don't have that much and we aren't currently excelling - so not much press. The media haven't shouted down sport climbing as not real since the nineties. UKC trolls may still do so - I don't pay them enough attention to know. Getting (over)excited for trad is not the same as shouting down sport. There is more press given to trad climbing because there is more to celebrate. No conspiracy. I can't see how suppressing news of up-and-coming youth doing 8b is going to help?
how this could put someone off sacrificing, time, money and effort into training in gym for 12/24/36 months to get to there peak level to do a properly hard route only for the media to report things much easier with the same level of excitement
Well the appropriate level of excitement is entirely down to your perspective. People get excited by what they can relate to. Tom and Pete took a huge gamble that that level of training for US wide cracks would be worth it. They took a photographer and film maker and it was. Who can say if what they did is much easier or that they'd been 'put off' working towards a Spanish 9a+ that ends at a higher belay than the 8c+ they did last year? What press did Mickey get for climbing 8C (was it?) in Rocklands? Enough? He didn't seem to get much sponsorship... it's not just sport. Climbing has always rewarded personality as much as success. That's life.
I think in '95 sport was the blue riband event and that was that - it was what counted, what most folk did and was arguably easier to understand. Bouldering hadn't taken over as the 100m sprint equivalent. Post Akira, Chilam Bilam, (not accepted) Es Pontas etc (not graded), Simpson (not believed) and the Ondra era etc etc it's harder to know what the hardest or to see it's relevance to UK climbers. Whereas the appeal of free climbing El Cap is obvious and imho requires a wider set of skills. How easily they are gained you could debate...
(1) Do the cream of British climbing youth get into sport-climbing as opposed to other climbing disciplines?
(2) Do the British underperform in sport climbing versus comparable nations in terms of population, funding, climbing participant population?
Good summary. 1 - yes. Most of the guys I climb with started out indoors in the sport-soaked atmosphere of the mid-nineties. 2 - yes - but just in sport. Because once they left home and got cars the world opened up a fair bit and they diversified into other areas of climbing. Other nations are less likely to. I haven't seen much to convince me that the current bunch will be any different.
Not sure you're equivalence is too good since the current top sports routes are heavily dominated by only 2 climbers
Including Akira in 95 would make a big difference. You could consider 95/6 a period of consolidation - how would 90 compare? Two climbers out ahead again? Further ahead than was thought at the time too - you have to remember grades are far from an exact science and consensus requires quantity, which by definition doesn't exist at the top.
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Bouldering and sports climbing are intrinsically linked, the first is required to get really good at the later, i already said that. Bouldering and big walls are not.
We will never agree on any other point in this conversation due to your heavily slanted view of what is more deserving of praise. You think that sports climbing gets as much publicity as it deserves and i cant see you changing your opinion. You constantly confirm what i think but without even knowing it with comments like "There is more press given to trad climbing because there is more to celebrate". Which kind of takes me back round to why do we not have more to celebrate in UK sports climbing.
Back around again. But i cant be bothered.
Unfortunately the topic has gone very much UKC re trad is better and more justified than sports climbing which is a shame. If we continue down that path things will stay the same which is a shame.
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FFS, I thought we were getting somewhere for a minute. Try reading what I wrote instead of what you think I mean.
There is more press given to trad climbing because there is more to celebrate
A while back you said you didn't follow trad climbing. Uk climbers are doing very well at trad climbing on a world stage. Uk sport climbers are not - the point of this thread is it not? Hence 'more to celebrate'. What I care about or what you care about is not relevant.
The young climbers vote with their feet and don't seem to concentrate on sport any more. If they had current heroes maybe they would. But surely reporting what little does get done is better than no sport in the news?
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Unfortunately the topic has gone very much UKC re trad is better and more justified than sports climbing which is a shame.
I somehow overlooked the bit where anybody said anything even faintly resembling that.
It has been pointed out that many uk climbers choose to pursue other avenues than hard sport climbing, and in some cases are definitely world class at those other things. How is this denigrating sport climbing? Perhaps it reduces the potential pool of people who might otherwise have gone on to become top sport climbers, perhaps it doesn't, but either way I feel to see how it's automatically a bad thing.
You seem to me to arguing/assuming the exact opposite: that sport climbing is better and more justified than other forms of climbing and somebody like Hazel F is wasting her talent / setting a bad example to the youth.
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Well thank god for that I thought it was me for a minute.
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You misunderstand me. I agree that we don't have much to celebrate in sports climbing, hence why we report minor ascents, and we do have major ascents to report on in the trad world.
One of the major reasons i feel we dont have much to celebrate in sports climbing because climbers and the media fail to perceive the difference between hard and really hard and therefore we have set the bar too low, and this level is not worth reporting when compared to world standards.
Discuss
We seem to be going round in circles.
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Unfortunately the topic has gone very much UKC re trad is better and more justified than sports climbing which is a shame.
I somehow overlooked the bit where anybody said anything even faintly resembling that.
It has been pointed out that many uk climbers choose to pursue other avenues than hard sport climbing, and in some cases are definitely world class at those other things. How is this denigrating sport climbing? Perhaps it reduces the potential pool of people who might otherwise have gone on to become top sport climbers, perhaps it doesn't, but either way I feel to see how it's automatically a bad thing.
You seem to me to arguing/assuming the exact opposite: that sport climbing is better and more justified than other forms of climbing and somebody like Hazel F is wasting her talent / setting a bad example to the youth.
I have not said anything of the sort, i have agreed that the UK has a focus on trad climbing in my posts and have never once said sports climbing is better.
I give up.
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Did Malc (or anyone else for that matter) simply "get into bouldering" or did he find himself with a job, limited time to train and living nearer to bouldering areas with potential to develop new lines.
Ben & Jerry were sponsored weren't they and climbed full-time? Pretty sure Jerry was at least. And the 80s scene was fuelled by the UK's high unemployment and so many young climbers choosing to sign on and just climb. Would that explain why standards were so high overall?
Has any UK climber since been supported to the same degree as Ben & Jerry? Steve holds down a job and family doesn't he?
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And the 80s scene was fuelled by the UK's high unemployment and so many young climbers choosing to sign on and just climb. Would that explain why standards were so high overall?
It was more the "Enterprise Allowance" than the dole (or purely "signing on") that had such a positive effect on UK climbing in the late 80s. But yes.
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climbers and the media fail to perceive the difference between hard and really hard and therefore we have set the bar too low, and this level is not worth reporting when compared to world standards
Or not that they don't know the difference, but that no one is climbing really hard. So nothing to report. Would you really prefer sport wasn't reported at all? Or is there a particular ascent you think wasn't given its due?
have never once said sports climbing is better
Ah, but we all we know how you really feel.
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And the 80s scene was fuelled by the UK's high unemployment and so many young climbers choosing to sign on and just climb. Would that explain why standards were so high overall?
It was more the "Enterprise Allowance" than the dole (or purely "signing on") that had such a positive effect on UK climbing in the late 80s. But yes.
Also didn't you only have to sign on once every 2 weeks? Strong and adventurous Leeds climbers would hitch to Scotland to go winter climbing then hitch back down to sign on. Nowadays they make you keep an online diary that you have to update every day to prove you're 'searching' for work. It would be much harder to do that these days (the winter climbing)
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Yes it was sign on every two weeks, giro arrived 2 days later so effectively 12 days in between. I think they asked if had you been looking for work and had you done any work paid or unpaid, a Yes and a No, sign your name and that's you til next time.
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Off topic but I remember signing on for GME and Cupboard when they were in France.
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There's an interesting bit in (I think) Deep Play by Paul Pritchard, where he talks about the levels of unemployment and the morality of removing oneself from the competition for the few jobs available.
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Yes it was sign on every two weeks, giro arrived 2 days later so effectively 12 days in between. I think they asked if had you been looking for work and had you done any work paid or unpaid, a Yes and a No, sign your name and that's you til next time.
'Project Management'.
Easy life compared to today. Reminds me of the EI (Employment Insurance) they used to get in Canada, not sure if they still have the same scheme (Habrich?) - Basically a dole scheme that's banded based on how much you were earning prior to 'losing your job' (in reality, prior to leaving your highly-paid summer tree planting job for a winter of alpine/mixed climbing). 6 months of work / 6 months of EI. Easy life, designed for climbers.
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There's an interesting bit in (I think) Deep Play by Paul Pritchard, where he talks about the levels of unemployment and the morality of removing oneself from the competition for the few jobs available.
:lol: Moral justification for doing fuck-all but climb. What a hero. 'Leave me, save yourselves!'
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:thumbsup: Great innit?
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Basher mentions the Enterprise Allowance in Char's video about Mecca, and how back then you could sign on by post.
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There is more press given to trad climbing because there is more to celebrate
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to trad, so sorry if this is sounds either offensive or stupid, but I don't really know how UK trad compares to the stuff abroad and how our trad achievements compare to our sport ones on their respective scales of difficulty. For example, I don't really know how a repeat of Captain Invincible or Equilibrium compares to Recovery Drink (Nico Favresse' route in Greenland I think... I recall hearing 8c+/9a trad?) and where they sit on the 'trad' scale.
So can anyone in the know try and compare just how world class we are at trad compared to sport? Are repeats of 20 odd year old trad routes any more impressive than repeats of 20 odd year old sport routes? Because that's sort of where it seems like the majority of hard climbers in the UK are at, barring a few harder FA in both disciplines.
As an example, Caff repeated The Big Bang, 9a and has openly admitted that it took a lot of effort over a period of months. He then repeated Indian Face in an afternoon? Maybe two? I'm pretty sure that the latter was more celebrated despite this.
Sorry for being slightly off topic.
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...
So can anyone in the know try and compare just how world class we are at trad compared to sport? Are repeats of 20 odd year old trad routes any more impressive than repeats of 20 odd year old sport routes?
Bloody hell, batten down the hatches...
http://youtu.be/VJ3j5jp5IoY?t=1s (http://youtu.be/VJ3j5jp5IoY?t=1s)
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Might be a stretch...
How does UK trad/trad ascents by UK climbers compare to the rest of the world then? Leading the pack?
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As an example, Caff repeated The Big Bang, 9a and has openly admitted that it took a lot of effort over a period of months. He then repeated Indian Face in an afternoon? Maybe two? I'm pretty sure that the latter was more celebrated despite this.
Ben I guess this comes back to being able to tell stories as JB eluded to earlier; it makes for more of an article returning to a wall where you very nearly died a decade before to repeat one of the seminal trad routes of the UK. Compared to this going on a diet and doing a lot of deadhanging lacks a certain amount of interest for the masses!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63370 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63370)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5736 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5736)
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As an example, Caff repeated The Big Bang, 9a and has openly admitted that it took a lot of effort over a period of months. He then repeated Indian Face in an afternoon? Maybe two? I'm pretty sure that the latter was more celebrated despite this.
Ben I guess this comes back to being able to tell stories as JB eluded to earlier; it makes for more of an article returning to a wall where you very nearly died a decade before to repeat one of the seminal trad routes of the UK. Compared to this going on a diet and doing a lot of deadhanging lacks a certain amount of interest for the masses!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63370 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63370)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5736 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5736)
You mean most people aren't interested in deadhanging? What do they do in their spare time then? :shrug:
That is a good point. I've certainly had more people interested in how I injured myself in Norway rather than what I climbed there. Good interviews and videos etc do go a good way to making sport ascents more interesting, people do seem interested in the process.
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Exactly! Although Flatanger certainly lends itself to more interesting sports vids than a lot of venues. Imagine the article you'll be able to write about your ascent of Little Badder next year, you should make a Rocky style montage of your recovery!
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I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to trad, so sorry if this is sounds either offensive or stupid, but I don't really know how UK trad compares to the stuff abroad
I'll take the bait :worms: :worms: - flame me as an ignorant punter if you like
I personally wasn't thinking so much about repeats of twenty year old British routes, and I understand the general irritation at Indian Face Syndrome. But I have the impression that Pete and Tom are going around other countries repeating & putting up cutting edge routes, and that Hazel is in the top handful of international lady tradders.
See also Caff & Co on the Salathe - ok freed 20-odd years ago but still doesn't get done every week, so at least a bit newsworthy. There are plenty of 15 to 20 year old sport routes, repeats of which still seem to be at least somewhat newsworthy too: Realisation, AD, Hubble etc.
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For example, I don't really know how a repeat of Captain Invincible or Equilibrium compares to Recovery Drink (Nico Favresse' route in Greenland I think... I recall hearing 8c+/9a trad?) and where they sit on the 'trad' scale.
They don't really, apples and oranges. Nico's efforts on granite can be compared to Tom R and Pete's exploits though: If you read Tom's blog he has a go: http://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2014/06/30/the-pura-pura-project/ (http://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2014/06/30/the-pura-pura-project/)
Favresse and them have done some similar stuff like Greenspit but he has also done 9a and big walls, whereas they've basically repeated all the supposed hardest cracks in the world. Be interesting to see how they get on on El Cap.
You can't really have a sensible discussion about Indian Face. It is like catnip to UKC and nearly thirty years old, not twenty. Interesting how hard Meltdown turned out to be though, shame Johnny never did it.
Likewise I don't think it's worth trying to compare grit routes with elsewhere. It's worth noting Equilibrium stopped the yanks and Andrada dead, but Pearson did it quickly. And Nico put on a good show in Wales but left the gritstone with his pants round his ankles.
Until Echo wall is repeated we probably won't know what the hardest trad climb in the world is. And Caff will probably downgrade it anyway...
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Recovery drink is in Norway on Profilveggen. I asked Mr Favresse about the route, and he claimed it was really very hard for him, it took two trips and lots of attempts
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Interesting discussion for sure, but can people stop saying 'sports climbing', it makes me twitch almost as much as when I read that people are going climbing in the 'Peaks', or that they 'smashed' a route (what? - broke the holds off?).
Sport climbing (with no second 's' will do just fine).
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Exactly! Although Flatanger certainly lends itself to more interesting sports vids than a lot of venues. Imagine the article you'll be able to write about your ascent of Little Badder next year, you should make a Rocky style montage of your recovery!
That could be brilliant. Not sure how good my Rocky impression is though, but I could pretend that the training 'secret' is punching big pieces of meat and running up stairs.
Thanks for the replies Muenchener and JB. It does sound like there are British climbers who have climbed trad at the highest level of their niche (this isn't meant to sound belittling, I'm aware different styles/areas of sport climbing are niche - I avoid pockets like the plague and love edges/pinches but its all sport).
I suspect that in a few years UK sport climbing will be doing pretty well in the pecking order too - not at the top, but a handful of 9a-9a+ climbers and hopefully Steve will have done his Malham project which sounds like 9b. Its logical that having more people climbing at that level, so presumably more news reports about them, that the youths will raise their expectations if they're not already aiming for 9c.
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Oh, and by the way, I heard similar grumblings from French acquaintances. (Why are we crap at climbing? The reason most frequently heard it that the best french climbers are lazy and don't train enough.)
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Enzo Oddo seems to have gone a bit quiet.
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Except the French stats don't back up the French grumblings - they're just that, grumblings.
Whereas the Brit stats, if anyone could be bothered to trawl through below 9a+ (and remove boulder travs/myths) somewhat back up the Brit grumblings.
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Whilst they have a lot of 9a climbers I can see why they might feel they are behind as they only have 4 9a+ climbers (if you dont count Akira as 9b).
Like has been said a few times i dont think the world outside of the UK sees 9a as that hard any more.
Based purely on difficulty (redpoint and onsight,)and not quantity they are behind the Czechs, Germans, spanish, norwegians, americans.
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Based purely on difficulty (redpoint and onsight,)and not quantity they are behind the Czechs, Germans, spanish, norwegians, americans.
i.e. Ondra, Megos, Ramon (?), Midtbo and the almighty Shamra (who is basically Spanish now)?
It's not as if the countries you've listed have masses of 9b climbers or 9a onsighters!
Didn't Ondra say that Overshadow could be 9b? THat way you'd be able to add the UK to that list too!
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I only said that i can see why they might think they are under performing due to not having a top climber or someone climbing the top two grades.
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Yeah, the top-level is shockingly high: 8c+ or 9a onsight, 9a flash, or 9b or 9b+ redpoint. Below that are the also-rans. :blink:
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I'm late to most of this since, topically, I'm in Spain trying to redpoint a hard (for me) route. I'be not read everything but just wanted to back Stu up in his assessment that conditions are not the limiting factor in his the UK, and, IMO, choice of routes is a far bigger deal, as Doyle mentioned on about page 1. If I could move the route I'm trying to the tor or malham - complete with their conditions and seepage - I'm convinced that it would make it easier for me than having to go on a trip, where conditions are an equally big risk (e.g. its been 25 degrees since I've got here and looks set to stay like that). The big difference is that round here you can pick crimps, pockets or pinches, vert or thug, and short medium and long in all of those styles, often with a few to xhoose even adter that, whereas in the uk its short crimps or medium crimps or rainshadow.
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Knee pad must be constricting in that heat ;)
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If I could move the route I'm trying to the tor or malham - complete with their conditions and seepage - I'm convinced that it would make it easier for me than having to go on a trip, where conditions are an equally big risk (e.g. its been 25 degrees since I've got here and looks set to stay like that).
Conversely, if you lived in Spain, I doubt you would be really wanting to go on your trips to Malham to get the most reliable conditions ::)
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I'm late to most of this since, topically, I'm in Spain trying to redpoint a hard (for me) route. I'be not read everything but just wanted to back Stu up in his assessment that conditions are not the limiting factor in his the UK, and, IMO, choice of routes is a far bigger deal, as Doyle mentioned on about page 1. If I could move the route I'm trying to the tor or malham - complete with their conditions and seepage - I'm convinced that it would make it easier for me than having to go on a trip, where conditions are an equally big risk (e.g. its been 25 degrees since I've got here and looks set to stay like that). The big difference is that round here you can pick crimps, pockets or pinches, vert or thug, and short medium and long in all of those styles, often with a few to xhoose even adter that, whereas in the uk its short crimps or medium crimps or rainshadow.
good luck barrows, keep on truckin'
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I'm late to most of this since, topically, I'm in Spain trying to redpoint a hard (for me) route. I'be not read everything but just wanted to back Stu up in his assessment that conditions are not the limiting factor in his the UK, and, IMO, choice of routes is a far bigger deal, as Doyle mentioned on about page 1. If I could move the route I'm trying to the tor or malham - complete with their conditions and seepage - I'm convinced that it would make it easier for me than having to go on a trip, where conditions are an equally big risk (e.g. its been 25 degrees since I've got here and looks set to stay like that). The big difference is that round here you can pick crimps, pockets or pinches, vert or thug, and short medium and long in all of those styles, often with a few to xhoose even adter that, whereas in the uk its short crimps or medium crimps or rainshadow.
You only cite this as a disadvantage because you're not Spanish, if you were this wouldn't be a problem. "Where the sun don't shine the Euro's don't climb" - are the Spanish people having trouble in the sun? My experience is people in hotter climates tend to deal better with the heat than a pasty Brit tourist.
I heard somewhere an amount of time (that I can no longer remember) that it takes your body to adapt to such climatic changes. It was vast when compared to the length of time most people (even you Barrows) would spend on a redpointing trip.
I will at some point (probably long after the debate has finished), get around to writing my full considered reply. Probably when my manager is in a meeting I'd imagine.
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Can we have a picture of a cat now?
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i couldn't disagree more with most of what gme has posted but…..
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69236 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69236)
Newsworthy?
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Amazing.
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Not newsworthy in terms of difficulty (i.e. if they had done Urgent Action for example it probably wouldn't have been reported) but it is a story of interest. From a personal perspective it is good to hear about these ascents as they are not done often so now I know they are relatively clean and the gear is ok on them. The other aspect I find with the British climbing media is that it tends to have it's favourite "media darlings" who tend to always be in the news whether the ascents are newsworthy or not.
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Not newsworthy in terms of difficulty (i.e. if they had done Urgent Action for example it probably wouldn't have been reported) but it is a story of interest. From a personal perspective it is good to hear about these ascents as they are not done often so now I know they are relatively clean and the gear is ok on them. The other aspect I find with the British climbing media is that it tends to have it's favourite "media darlings" who tend to always be in the news whether the ascents are newsworthy or not.
Not sure if Ben is a media darling?
Though I should have given him the job when he applied last year...
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:off: Wild looking route! it would be cool if they had a look at Bob's route Endeavour while they were down there
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Not newsworthy in terms of difficulty (i.e. if they had done Urgent Action for example it probably wouldn't have been reported) but it is a story of interest. From a personal perspective it is good to hear about these ascents as they are not done often so now I know they are relatively clean and the gear is ok on them. The other aspect I find with the British climbing media is that it tends to have it's favourite "media darlings" who tend to always be in the news whether the ascents are newsworthy or not.
Yeah totally, I don't give two hoots if british climbers are "world class", I just thought it was a nice example of what gme thinks is route cause of the lack of 9a climbers in the UK, but I reiterate I totally disagree with him.
:off: Wild looking route! it would be cool if they had a look at Bob's route Endeavour while they were down there
I can't imagine a better example of what gme was talking about…. see above
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Sorry Tim could you explain that one
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gme (on page 1 i.e. the topic of the thread) says that over reporting of ascents of mid - grade sport routes as "news" is one cause of the lack of 9a and above climbers in the uk. I was just providing an example, I thought maybe the dead horse had not been sufficiently flogged
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oh yes I know that's the main topic I was just struggling to see how my off-topic comment you've quoted linked into that
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:sorry: I my understanding of emoticon syntax is poor
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I was just providing an example, I thought maybe the dead horse had not been sufficiently flogged
Why bring it up again if your so sure the horse is dead. And thanks for referencing a very good example of what i was talking about.
I still think i am right in my thinking, am still very interested in the subject, and am still doing a fair amount of researching into it but cant be arsed to discuss it on here as i have found the nature of forums not suitable to have a constructive discussion.
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I was just providing an example, I thought maybe the dead horse had not been sufficiently flogged
Why bring it up again if your so sure the horse is dead. And thanks for referencing a very good example of what i was talking about.
I would try and argue with you but it is clear that you are not taking in to anything anyone else has posted. All I will say is correlation is not the same as causation.
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Tim what are you saying? Has someone spiked yours and stu littlefella's drinks recently? I can't make any sense of what you've both been trying to talk about
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Those routes do sound fantastic, the sort of things I'd love to check out if I was in the area and going well. It's cool to hear about such off-the beaten path adventurous sport routes although I was already well aware of Infinite Gravity as a goal to go and try one day.. I think stories like this, with accompanying sponsorship information for the climbers because that's important to readers, could be reported in a new UKB thread specifically designed for this purpose:
SPRAY - Significant Personal Repeat Ascents: Yes!
With possibly a coastal sub-thread: SEA SPRAY
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I would try and argue with you but it is clear that you are not taking in to anything anyone else has posted. All I will say is correlation is not the same as causation.
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Tim you are very wrong. i have listened to an noted everything people have said and am far from the "i am right so fuck everyone else position" you think i am. Lots of interesting points have been raised some i agree with some i don't.
The reason i don't want to discuss it on here is due to the chat room format which i find is difficult to have a relatively serious conversation. Bit like sitting in a meeting with people walking in an out of it as they please adding comment only to the last 5 mins they have been involved in.
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I think the problem was mainly that the thread quickly turned to discussing the broader question 'why is the Uk shit at sport climbing?'. Which wasn't what the thread was really aimed at originally.
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I don’t know if this point has already been made but news content in mags and websites is purely a function of what content is available to the producer at any given time, and has very little to do with producing outcomes other than entertaining the readers and increasing sales/site traffic. I assume this model is universal not just a UK thing. If the only thing of note on a given day is something of a modest grade with some other interest value then that is what will get published, to expect otherwise is folly. Personally I’d rather have something to read than nothing. I really can’t imagine this is any different in other (by whatever measure successful) countries. I also think that it’s getting your chicken and egg the wrong way round to think that a lack of high grades in the news is the cause of said lack. Surely a simpler explanation is that folk don’t climb that hard so the ascents that get in the news reflect that. How could you possibly prove the causation was reversed anyway?
<Said the guy walking into the meeting for 5 minutes>
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Just popping by on way to the water-cooler..
GME - what other options do you have for discussing your idea that: 'the media reporting of ascents may contribute to a lowering of standards among top sport-climbers in the UK by lowering expectations of what constitutes a significant performance level'?
You could write an article for a mag, the pro's of that are you could possibly go into more detail than on here, although I doubt it, as long as you're prepared to ignore every little comment and focus instead on staying on topic you can have more detail on a forum. The cons of a mag article are no-one is talking back to you so it isn't dynamic, it's just your idea up to the point of publishing.
You could write a blog. Pro's - you can go into as much detail as you like although you'd lose a percentage of readers if it's too long and/or bland. Also it's more dynamic than a mag article. Con's - less people will see it than here or in a mag, although probably more now than if you hadn't started the topic here first.
You could keep it to yourself and talk among friends at the crag/wall and just accept that's how it is.
I think airing ideas on a forum like this is a good way to do it, but perhaps better is if it's linked to a well-researched blog post or article. And you don't have to respond to every little comment. Most people can see if a poster is missing the point you're trying to make or going off on a tangent. People will read what you write and the silent majority will take away what they will from it. And if people want to pink anasazi/pain o'raisin the thread there's not a lot you can do about it.
Even though I agree in parts with your idea, I don't think you've made a very strong argument. What you haven't done so far is back up your idea with any compelling evidence, either in terms of how we compare overall with other countries - someone else had to find out the numbers for you and I'm still not clear how we compare below 9a; nor given an alternative for how the media could report stuff in a way that you think would encourage higher expectations - obviously higher grades, but what's your cut-off for Men/Women, and Youths - what age? What about sponsors driving news stories (of 8cs and E9s that aren't?), whose interest is that in and what's the alternative? Or what about sponsors driving climbing websites in general - and their news - because websites and mags are largely paid for by advertising? How do you suggest to change editorial policy and what should it be like?
One sure-fire way to improve standards quite quickly would be if there were a significant financial incentive to climb very hard - say £6-8K per calender year? (so 1K each from some main UK companies connected to climbing) - open to all-comers. To be the first Uk male to repeat 3 9as in a calender year or one 9a+, and for each of the first two women to climb both a confirmed 8c and a confirmed 8c+ in a calender year. Two women, to promote greater depth of talent. Routes could be in any country but perhaps a 15% bonus for including a UK route, 30% if all in the UK. That should raise expectations and standards.
<leaving for lunchbreak>
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It seems that Labour aren't going to put any resources into fighting the Rochester & Strood by election.
Ohh sorry, wrong meeting.
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news content in mags and websites is purely a function of what content is available to the producer at any given time, and has very little to do with producing outcomes other than entertaining the readers and increasing sales/site traffic.
This is a very important point.
As someone who works on a daily TV show, if there is no news, we still have to make a programme. Does this mean that apparently undue emphasis is often given to a woman whos cat is up a tree? Of course.
If anything I think youngsters nowadays are in a far better place than say twenty years ago when you had to wait for the mag to come out to discover what the editor had arbitrarily deemed worthy of publication/ had space for.
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Gme, do you seriously imagine your point, as originally stated, has not caused everyone reading this to (at the very least) reconsider their position?
This has been one of the liveliest debates on the forum for some time.
And it is important.
...ish.
Within the context of climbing, anyway.
For what it's worth, my read of this is that most people agree that your original point is valid and accept it as a contributing factor to the current climate.
After that, we all disagree with each other about it's ranking within the list of other, possible, factors.
And you and JB disagree.
About everything.
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Oh, and if you think this is bad...
Try the planning meeting for a new Mega-yacht, where the Engineers go to war with the interior designers. Both of those groups fundamentally disagree with everything the exterior stylist has ever said, done or excreted. The Architect is in a dream world and the owners wife thinks she is the only one who understands anything.
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For what it's worth, my read of this is that most people agree that your original point is valid and accept it as a contributing factor to the current climate.
After that, we all disagree with each other about it's ranking within the list of other, possible, factors.
And you and JB disagree.
About everything.
I also totally disagree with the original point, I think it is far more likely that moderate achievements are celebrated because not a lot of hard sport climbing is done (rather than the other way round) and some individuals or companies push their own achievements no matter how minor.
I agree with alex that the cause of few people climbing 9a probably does lie in the relative lack of hard routes and lack of steep rock conducive to hard routes, I am confident if rodellar or even the frankenjura was transplanted to buxton that there would be a decent number of 9a climbers in the uk.
Possibly the lack of full-time climbers might have something to do with it, but I think this may not be a bad thing for the long term future of the sport in the UK.
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Actually, Rodellar is bad for 9s really, but if we transported Santa Linya there then I'd back you to be right.
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I also totally disagree with the original point, I think it is far more likely that moderate achievements are celebrated because not a lot of hard sport climbing is done (rather than the other way round) and some individuals or companies push their own achievements no matter how minor.
Yes.
The original analogy with business would have made more sense to me if the conclusion had been that we need more mentors in sport climbing, and the mentors need to have bigger vision.
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I am confident if ... the frankenjura was transplanted to buxton that there would be a decent number of 9a climbers in the uk.
I would be opposed to this.
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The original analogy with business would have made more sense to me if the conclusion had been that we need more mentors in sport climbing, and the mentors need to have bigger vision.
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But we are all playing the role of mentors and the media is a mentor. That's entirely the point. But even on here nobody truly believes that we can compete with the best. All we have are reasons why we can't, not the right routes, not the right weather, not the right amount of time, etc etc We therefore celebrate mediocrity as if that's as good as it gets which rubs off on the kids with the potential to be really good.
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Can you paint us a picture of what you see as the alternative then? All can see is less sport climbing in the media, and less sport climbers as a result.
I don't agree we are really all playing the role of mentors, we might be part of a landscape of influence but a mentor is more than that. And as others have pointed out above the new media is not really about news any more. Whereas there are lots of actual coaches about nowadays acting as actual mentors. All the young talent in recent years seem to have been brought to our attention via a 'celeb' coach.
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But even on here nobody truly believes that we can compete with the best. All we have are reasons why we can't
I think that's a massive mis-characterisation of many on here. It's perfectly possible to believe that UK climbers can reach 9a+/b, whilst acknowledging that it's easier to do so in some other countries, and that therefore more climbers from these countries will do so.
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But on here, as has been said before, is a very small relatively well educated in climbing terms)bunch. Other sites have much greater traffic and a lot less knowledge.
JB I am not ignoring you but not going to reply now as it's late and I am on the vino.
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Ha!
But even on here nobody truly believes that we can compete with the best
Not my impression. We have done before, and could again. Dare I mention the other areas in climbing in which we manage to compete despite far greater disadvantages?
The bottom line for me is it's just not very fashionable at the mo in the UK.