UKBouldering.com

the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: turnipturned on February 04, 2018, 01:41:56 pm

Title: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: turnipturned on February 04, 2018, 01:41:56 pm
Went to Whitehouses today to find a sign drilled into the cliff saying 'Caution no Climbing' and pretty much any obivous hold been smashed off with a sledge hammer. (Can only presume this is the landowner).

Such a shame. Was such a valuable crag for our local community. It seems extremely short sited and a total overreaction.

I think access issues are going to become a lot more of an issue moving forwards, especially with the huge increase and popularity of bouldering. Think there is some lessons to be learnt here.

For photos; see my Instagram (@highballproductions) or Yorkshire Grit on Facebook.

Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Fiend on February 04, 2018, 02:34:45 pm
 :o :no: :'( >:( :wavecry:
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: tomtom on February 04, 2018, 04:57:00 pm
That’s a shame.... unfortunate no resolution could be found (BMC were involved non?)
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: daprince on February 04, 2018, 04:57:20 pm
Couldn't Agree more, this is a tragedy but you could see it coming, as people parked in daft places and more people started to frequent the place, never went personally I'm too shite to do anything. Access to  the Cliff is already becoming a problem firstly lamping and then wall walking, plenty of people have used it as a bivvy site recently even though it's a few hundred metres from the farmer's house. We either treat private land with respect or we get kicked off.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: 205Chris on February 04, 2018, 05:04:49 pm
It's pretty disappointing to see the perpetrator get called some fairly obscene things by other climbers on that instagram post with only one person (Mark Katz) seemingly acknowledging that climbers might have played some part in things escalating to this. I agree it seems fairly reactionary but the warnings were there.

I've only ever been once but I can see how it's proximity to the road and fast drying nature led to it becoming popular (not to mention appearances in a number of videos). There was even a old post here (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,27779.msg560374.html#msg560374) that alluded to the farmer taking things into his own hands, albeit the reality is worse than the threat was.

If anything comes of this I hope it's that climbers as a community take a long hard look at themselves. Anyone who thinks this is a one off incident only needs to look back at Eagle Tor in the peak where access was lost due to some inconsiderate climber crimping one off in what is essentially someone's back yard where their kids play.

Whether it's an education thing or not but things like this and the recent 'pack every problem with chalk' issue at Stanage make me pretty sad with the current state of affairs.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: sxrxg on February 04, 2018, 05:34:25 pm
Wadded 205chris as you have said what I was thinking much better than I could have done.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 04, 2018, 05:38:49 pm
It's pretty disappointing to see the perpetrator get called some fairly obscene things by other climbers on that instagram post with only one person (Mark Katz) seemingly acknowledging that climbers might have played some part in things escalating to this. I agree it seems fairly reactionary but the warnings were there.

I've only ever been once but I can see how it's proximity to the road and fast drying nature led to it becoming popular (not to mention appearances in a number of videos). There was even a old post here (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,27779.msg560374.html#msg560374) that alluded to the farmer taking things into his own hands, albeit the reality is worse than the threat was.

If anything comes of this I hope it's that climbers as a community take a long hard look at themselves. Anyone who thinks this is a one off incident only needs to look back at Eagle Tor in the peak where access was lost due to some inconsiderate climber crimping one off in what is essentially someone's back yard where their kids play.

Whether it's an education thing or not but things like this and the recent 'pack every problem with chalk' issue at Stanage make me pretty sad with the current state of affairs.

I think I read that exact same tract, in the the letters section of High magazine 35 years ago...

We never bloody learn, do we. As a community, we seem to view ourselves with a distressing exceptionalism, some sort of Robin Hood/revolutionary/anti-establishment/rugged individualists with divine right of access.
To the landowners we piss off, we’re just a bunch of scruffy twats doing something incomprehensible and making a nuisance in the process.

In reality, we’re like kids scrumping in the orchard.

If we’d only asked politely, they’d have let us take a few apples. If we cut the grass, clear the windfalls, fix the fence and oil the gate; we’d be bloody welcome.

Nope. Tins, crisp packets, chalk, loud swearing and abuse. Broken gates and fences and a large turd behind the tree.
If it was your garden?
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Doylo on February 04, 2018, 06:11:50 pm
Things don’t change much. One of the best crags in North Wales, Craig y Forwyn was banned 25 years ago due to similar bad behaviour by climbers. It only takes a minority to fuck it up. Having said that smashing crags up with hammers is horrible .
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 04, 2018, 06:32:34 pm
Things don’t change much. One of the best crags in North Wales, Craig y Forwyn was banned 25 years ago due to similar bad behaviour by climbers. It only takes a minority to fuck it up. Having said that smashing crags up with hammers is horrible .

It’s horrible to us, it’s a lump of rock that looks pretty much like it did the day before the fella with the hammer hit it, to him.
To us it’s like squashing puppies, to them; squashing ants.

We always forget that.
But, can you imagine trying to explain that to the group you saw at crag x/y/z last week?
Would you speak to the dicks talking about their lamp session at a.n.other sensitive crag, as they swan around the cafe at the wall?

Probably not, because you’d just be laughed at. Or, in cases such as mine, accused of being aggressive and threatening (My face telegraphs like bitch). This has been spoken about, lectured about, leafleted about, debated about, for about, as long as I’ve been a climber (since I was 8, so 39 years (yes, one of my earliest experiences as a climber was picking up litter at the Cheesewring, with all the old boys, who thought my dad was “the lad”; because access was at risk. 1979 ish).

Humans suck.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: teestub on February 04, 2018, 09:20:46 pm
That’s a shame.... unfortunate no resolution could be found (BMC were involved non?)

No they weren't really, they did fuck all. All the 'new access arrangements' were just hearsay where some random had spoken to some random at the crag. No official access arrangement was made. At the Yorkshire BMC meeting it was dismissed as being a small 'hardcore' venue that would be no great loss, which is true in the grand scheme of things, but doesn't make it hurt any less for the locals who loved it.

I was patiently waiting for the BMC to get something arranged before heading back...
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 04, 2018, 10:14:57 pm
That’s a shame.... unfortunate no resolution could be found (BMC were involved non?)

No they weren't really, they did fuck all. All the 'new access arrangements' were just hearsay where some random had spoken to some random at the crag. No official access arrangement was made. At the Yorkshire BMC meeting it was dismissed as being a small 'hardcore' venue that would be no great loss, which is true in the grand scheme of things, but doesn't make it hurt any less for the locals who loved it.

I was patiently waiting for the BMC to get something arranged before heading back...

Really gutted with this, has ruined my Sunday.

Disappointed that nothing official was put in place as I was at the meeting and thought there had been. However, I think in the interests of balance I should say that I didn't get any sense of the crag being dismissed as no great loss. They mentioned it was 'pretty hardcore' which I interpreted as a self deprecating remark.

Think we as climbers need to start taking responsibility for this as much as anyone else. Anyone can make a sign and put it on a fence without waiting for BMC apparatus to grind into gear. I include myself in this fwiw. Kilnsey was a flashpoint last summer due to parking and could be again this year. Perhaps it's time to run a load of signs up without waiting for 'official clearance'.

We can't ever be sure that someone who turns up at the crag will have checked the RAD even though I totally agree they should have. Equally, we can't assume that everyone who uses a venue is on the same Facebook page. Important stuff needs be made clear on site so there is no wiggle room IMO.

Out of interest, do we know yet what flashpoint triggered this reaction? Seems a few people were climbing there last week no problems.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: mrjonathanr on February 04, 2018, 10:55:33 pm


We can't ever be sure that someone who turns up at the crag will have checked the RAD even though I totally agree they should have. Equally, we can't assume that everyone who uses a venue is on the same Facebook page. Important stuff needs be made clear on site so there is no wiggle room IMO.



Agree with assuming responsibility, though not sure about signs on private land.

RAD exists to provide key info so it's reasonable to hope it would be checked. There's no reason to assume someone will check Facebook, it's a commercial site, not a service.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 05, 2018, 07:53:05 am


I couldn't agree more, it is totally reasonable, but there are some seriously unreasonable people out there. In my experience it's much easier to challenge someone about something when there's literally a sign to point to alongside saying 'please don't do that.'

Re Facebook, I was referring to the Yorkshire Grit Bouldering page;
I wasn't on it til a week ago which is a case in point! But it does seem to be a forum for access issues etc, which is great as long as it's not the *only* place.

Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Paul B on February 05, 2018, 10:20:44 am
That’s a shame.... unfortunate no resolution could be found (BMC were involved non?)

No they weren't really, they did fuck all...

....At the Yorkshire BMC meeting it was dismissed as being a small 'hardcore' venue that would be no great loss, which is true in the grand scheme of things, but doesn't make it hurt any less for the locals who loved it.

That's more than a bit worrying/damning!

Call me a stuck record but I was fairly unimpressed with how unbothered the BMC Yorkshire area meet was to rubbish behaviour at the big K (not quite as bothered as to the rubbish behaviour itself obviously).

It had the air of it having been handled which IMO it hasn't and nobody seemed overly concerned so I've tried to (/failed to) let it go. Maybe that's far from the correct approach?

Without getting too BMC 'bashy' here (as I acknowledge there's a lot of good work done, on a lot of fronts), it seemed like a fairly huge error to promote a video showing walking on the wall at the cliff on social media.

RAD only shows 1000 downloads on Google play.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: tomtom on February 05, 2018, 10:35:17 am
Well folks theres a BMC yorkshire area meet tonight if you want to bring it up?

http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=3931

And from the minutes of their last meeting (27/11/2017):

Quote
Gritstone: Access & Conservation: Mick stated as per report attached to agenda:
New notices now provided for owner of Almscliffe re: litter, lamping and drones as well as some re: parking.
Farmer has complained of damage to the wall up to the crag from people using it instead of getting muddy
feet.
Whitehouses boulder – has found the owner, access issues still ongoing. The farmer does not want any
climbing on this at the current time

Hawkcliffe has a change of owner and issues may arise.
Crookrise is a work in progress re: surveying and a potential Open Day in 2018.
Brimham - concerns were raised re loose rock above Lovers Leap Chimney – Mick has inspected and can
see no problem and has advised the Army to not use the chimney if they are concerned. Paul Clarke and
friends are busy compiling a

Maybe this wasn't well publicised? (by anyone - not necessarily the BMC) but seems pretty clear to me....

Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: shark on February 05, 2018, 10:45:15 am
No they weren't really, they did fuck all. All the 'new access arrangements' were just hearsay where some random had spoken to some random at the crag. No official access arrangement was made. At the Yorkshire BMC meeting it was dismissed as being a small 'hardcore' venue that would be no great loss, which is true in the grand scheme of things, but doesn't make it hurt any less for the locals who loved it.

I was patiently waiting for the BMC to get something arranged before heading back...

Understand disappointment and it sounds like you did right to hold off going and if others had done as well maybe this could have been averted.

As for the BMC doing fuck all the minutes of the last two meetings suggest that is not quite the case:

Minutes of meeting 11 Sept

Whitehouses boulder – this has created a few access issues as it is on private land with a public footpath alongside. The farmer does not want any climbing on this at the current time – Mick (Johnson) is going to speak to him

Minutes of meeting 27 Nov

Whitehouses boulder – has found the owner, access issues still ongoing. The farmer does not want any
climbing on this at the current time
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: galpinos on February 05, 2018, 10:48:17 am
Quote
Whitehouses boulder – has found the owner, access issues still ongoing. The farmer does not want any
climbing on this at the current time


Maybe this wasn't well publicised? (by anyone - not necessarily the BMC) but seems pretty clear to me....

The RAD didn't reflect that though, which might be where people check instead of the last minutes of the regional meeting.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 05, 2018, 10:56:57 am
Well folks theres a BMC yorkshire area meet tonight if you want to bring it up?

http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=3931

And from the minutes of their last meeting (27/11/2017):

Quote
Gritstone: Access & Conservation: Mick stated as per report attached to agenda:
New notices now provided for owner of Almscliffe re: litter, lamping and drones as well as some re: parking.
Farmer has complained of damage to the wall up to the crag from people using it instead of getting muddy
feet.
Whitehouses boulder – has found the owner, access issues still ongoing. The farmer does not want any
climbing on this at the current time

Hawkcliffe has a change of owner and issues may arise.
Crookrise is a work in progress re: surveying and a potential Open Day in 2018.
Brimham - concerns were raised re loose rock above Lovers Leap Chimney – Mick has inspected and can
see no problem and has advised the Army to not use the chimney if they are concerned. Paul Clarke and
friends are busy compiling a

Maybe this wasn't well publicised? (by anyone - not necessarily the BMC) but seems pretty clear to me....

Am going, so will do. Agree that it wasn't publicised all that well because I would swear blind no one even said we shouldn't be climbing there at that meeting; but maybe my memories are faulty. By contrast I remember Mick saying 'it should be fine, the owner is ok with climbing but the tenant isn't' or words to that effect. Would be interested to hear from anyone else who was there as I may be totally wrong. Either way I'm sure it will come up this evening.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: teestub on February 05, 2018, 11:29:18 am
Unfortunately away with work tonight so can’t go. Likewise I don’t remember any talk of not climbing there at the last meeting. Interesting that the minutes don’t seem to reflect that point at all. They were too busy wanking on about which order in which to arrange their ducks to give much time to access.

Shark: let me amend my statement from ‘done fuck all’ to ‘achieved fuck all’.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 05, 2018, 11:37:00 am
Unfortunately away with work tonight so can’t go. Likewise I don’t remember any talk of not climbing there at the last meeting. Interesting that the minutes don’t seem to reflect that point at all.

Will point it out this eve seeing as it seems to be both of us challenging the minutes. Would also like to see considerably more discussion time given to access.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: teestub on February 05, 2018, 11:46:40 am
Thanks, that would be great.

Good look on the access front, assume you’re in for another night of organisational charts, subcommittee and participation promotion chat from the recent comms.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 05, 2018, 12:04:05 pm
Thanks, that would be great.

Good look on the access front, assume you’re in for another night of organisational charts, subcommittee and participation promotion chat from the recent comms.

Yeah I also suspect that, but they've hauled in Rob Dyer who I gather is the overall access man. I sympathise because modernising the BMC has to be done, and part of that is explaining things (semi)clearly and giving people a forum to discuss it. Flipside is we've all got lives to lead and the desire to go home at some point cuts down on access time which I would say is infinitely more important/relevant to me. Would happily sign off the modernising recommendations now tbh.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Will Hunt on February 05, 2018, 12:13:49 pm
To be fair, I wouldn't ever think to check the RAD before I went bouldering on grit in Yorkshire - maybe I should? I'd normally look at it for bird ban info, limestone access which tends to be more fractious, and if I'm going anywhere on a Saturday where I know there might be shooting. I tend to keep up to date with things by looking on here and at various FB groups, but obviously not everyone will do that. Maybe the answer is to push people to check the RAD more regularly and to make sure it's always got the most up to date info.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Will Hunt on February 05, 2018, 12:18:40 pm
What about a noticeboard at the local walls with the names of the local crags that people are likely to visit, particularly those in shooting areas, or not on CRoW with a red/yellow/green label next to them indicating the state of access.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: andy_e on February 05, 2018, 12:23:01 pm
Good idea Will, a "crag noticeboard" might work, if it's in an accessible place. Also, some form of awareness of access issues on those "indoors to outdoors" sessions that some walls run. Is that a done thing?
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 05, 2018, 12:31:24 pm
What about a noticeboard at the local walls with the names of the local crags that people are likely to visit, particularly those in shooting areas, or not on CRoW with a red/yellow/green label next to them indicating the state of access.

Great idea. Could easily be done, alongside a massive type reminder to 'CHECK THE RAD' in red or something.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: teestub on February 05, 2018, 12:56:31 pm
I guess something this does highlight is a potential landowner response to the ‘I’m sure it will be fine there’s a footpath next to it’ approach to development and the ‘just keep climbing there until a real issue develops’ access approach.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 05, 2018, 01:28:13 pm
True, though I would still argue that this is a very extreme reaction and not one that has happened before where that approach to development/ access has been taken; to the best of my knowledge.

 However you're right, prevention is better than cure and in some cases such as this it can't be cured, so in general the conversation should be had sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: 205Chris on February 05, 2018, 05:54:29 pm
As for the BMC doing fuck all the minutes of the last two meetings suggest that is not quite the case:

Minutes of meeting 11 Sept

Whitehouses boulder – this has created a few access issues as it is on private land with a public footpath alongside. The farmer does not want any climbing on this at the current time – Mick (Johnson) is going to speak to him

Minutes of meeting 27 Nov

Whitehouses boulder – has found the owner, access issues still ongoing. The farmer does not want any
climbing on this at the current time


Hi Simon, someone posted this on the other channel on 4th December:

Quote
Mick has been active and visited landowners in the area. He reported at the last area BMC meeting that there was little problem with people climbing there so long as people are sensible in their approach to parking and access. The outline above seems eminently workable and surely no one could argue otherwise?

If that's true it's hard to work out how people left the meeting with pretty much the polar opposite understanding of what was minuted  :shrug:

I'd be interested in hearing back from anyone who goes to the area meet tonight
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: teestub on February 05, 2018, 06:03:20 pm
From memory at the last meeting Mick said he was still trying to contact the land owner. I’ve not seen any official BMC update beyond that. I’ll hear reports from tonight’s meeting with interest.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 05, 2018, 10:11:33 pm
From the meeting:

I questioned whether Mick had said what was minuted regarding access being a problem but others seemed to remember him saying words to the effect of 'id leave it alone for now.' Either way a disconnect has clearly happened because there's different accounts of who said what all over the place.

As to who Mick spoke to, it was hard to find out for sure because he's recovering from a broken hip. He knocked on a few doors and found it quite hard to find out who actually owned the land. It seems there are three (at least) parties involved: the people who live in the house across from the parking (not the farmer/landowner it seems), the landowner, and the tenant farmer. Consensus seems to be that Mick tracked down the landowner, who was reasonably ok with the idea as long as parking etiquette was observed. To reinforce the point, no one actually knew because Mick wasn't there to ask (personally
I don't really think this is good enough and we need to work out exactly who spoke to who when to ensure it doesn't happen again). However, regardless of what the landowner thought, it looks like the likeliest scenario is the tenant farmer having an altercation/bad experience with parking and taking retributive action. Not that we know for sure, so I'll stop short of fully blaming him!

My personal view of how it all unfolded is that it's a really sad tale of missed opportunities and bad luck, to prevent the problem arising. At exactly the moment access tensions started getting worse, Mick had broken his hip and wasn't around to talk to the landowner/investigate further. By the way, this is totally fair enough and I'm not laying blame. The climbing community proceeded to shoot itself in the foot repeatedly by being rude to a person who asked them to move their car and be rude to the farmer when he asked people to leave. This is probably the saddest thing. Mixed messages and warnings about access bounced around UKC, UKB, Facebook and word of mouth but the BMC failed to put out a proper warning that access was worsening and Mick was still laid up. Paul Clarke updated the RAD but to top it all off the app wasn't working and so many people who might have looked probably simply didn't bother. So many missed opportunities along the way to fix it.

Apologies for long post, hope I've answered a few questions. I'm sure Andy will update on the Yorkshire bmc page as well but if anyone has any q's I'll do my best to answer.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: tomtom on February 06, 2018, 06:08:12 am
Maybe UKB needs a 'Post up evidence of bad crag behaviour'* type thread - like the tick mark hall of fame. Pics of bad parking, litter etc... at the crag.

What made me think of this were the 2 or 3 pics on the YorkshireGrit FB page of people along the top of the stone wall to get to the crag instead of along the muddy path (with pads - not just walkers/stoners)....

*it needs a much snappier name.. it is 6am...

Also - I have a relative on the BMC Yorks committee - I'll ask next time I see them if there is any back story or not..
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: tomtom on February 06, 2018, 09:17:48 am
"WHITEHOUSES
Many of you will have seen Dan Turners post about damage to Whitehouses. The BMC clearly deplores such actions and the Area Access Rep is investigating this further to try and identify who did this and why. However in the mean time to address some of the comments we have seen:
1. The Area Access Rep had spoken to the Land Owner and understood he had their agreement that climbing could continue, unfortunately he was unable to speak to the Tenant and local residents before he was house bound by a serious injury. There was no suggestion by him that as it's only hard problems nothing was, or would be, done to address it.
2. This area has been a 'friction point' for a while. More unfortunately some climbers have been unhelpful in their conduct and even when asked, by other climbers, to not park irresponsibly etc have refused. This clearly has not helped the situation.
3. Access to private land is not a right. Landowners get no benefit from allowing access and if allowing climbing costs them time and/or money they will stop it. It is beholden on us ALL to ensure that we act in a way that does not damage their property or make their job harder. i.e. Check RAD (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/) for up to date restrictions, don't block gates or roads with bad parking, don't leave litter, keep noise and disturbance to a minimum and be polite. #Respecttherock
4. If there is any problem with access to private land please comply with the request (however unreasonable you think it is) and report it to us or the BMC Access officer so we can negotiate a solution. It's far better to lose access to a project or area for a short time than to lose access permanently (Eagle Tor), or irrevocably (as in this case)."

Copied from BMC Yorkshire area FB page... Not sure it says anything else new but here it is anyway,,,
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Fiend on February 06, 2018, 10:00:28 am
Good report from you guys. It does sound like a culmination of "small" issues from difficult communication on their side (landowner vs tenant farmer vs nearby residents) to poor behaviour by some climbers. Hopefully something useful can come out of this like TT suggests.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: nai on February 06, 2018, 10:32:05 am
If the parking at my kids' school is anything to go by we've got no chance of changing things.

Despite ample parking 2 minutes away a number of folk still try to park 100m either side of the school gate every day, rendering the road a single carriageway with passing spaces, latecomers park across drives and encroach onto the zig zags, thus filling the passing spaces and causing chaos.  Wet days are the worse, absolutely carnage.

We get a letter twice every half term (just had one today which made me think of this), about every four weeks, regular walk-to-school initiatives, even have the police down a couple of times a year to monitor and educate. Nothing ever changes, basically you have otherwise responsible parents saying fuck other kids' safety as long as mine don't have to walk too far and I can get off to work pronto.

A farmer's gate? Fuck that, I want to go climbing and I've only got while the baby's asleep.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: joeisidle on February 06, 2018, 01:30:11 pm
If the parking at my kids' school is anything to go by we've got no chance of changing things.

Despite ample parking 2 minutes away a number of folk still try to park 100m either side of the school gate every day, rendering the road a single carriageway with passing spaces, latecomers park across drives and encroach onto the zig zags, thus filling the passing spaces and causing chaos.  Wet days are the worse, absolutely carnage.

We get a letter twice every half term (just had one today which made me think of this), about every four weeks, regular walk-to-school initiatives, even have the police down a couple of times a year to monitor and educate. Nothing ever changes, basically you have otherwise responsible parents saying fuck other kids' safety as long as mine don't have to walk too far and I can get off to work pronto.

A farmer's gate? Fuck that, I want to go climbing and I've only got while the baby's asleep.


Whilst I suspect there might be some who come to the crag with this mindset surely a it's worth trying something like signage to raise awareness at specific popular venues - I'm thinking somewhere with private land access issues and lots of visitors next to North Rigton. Until the BMC or local climbers try something like signage so that absolutely no-one can fail to be aware of what you should/shouldn't be doing on a specific piece of land I suspect most will remain conveniently 'unaware' of any sensitivites. Given that I doubt many people look at the RAD, surely it's worth seeing what happens when people can't claim they're not aware that they shouldn't be walking along that wall/across that field...
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 06, 2018, 02:29:34 pm
Quote

Whilst I suspect there might be some who come to the crag with this mindset surely a it's worth trying something like signage to raise awareness at specific popular venues - I'm thinking somewhere with private land access issues and lots of visitors next to North Rigton. Until the BMC or local climbers try something like signage so that absolutely no-one can fail to be aware of what you should/shouldn't be doing on a specific piece of land I suspect most will remain conveniently 'unaware' of any sensitivites. Given that I doubt many people look at the RAD, surely it's worth seeing what happens when people can't claim they're not aware that they shouldn't be walking along that wall/across that field...

To be fair there is now a sign at this particular crag advising of sensitivities regarding lamping/drones etc. Would like to see more at other crags for the reasons you suggest.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Paul B on February 06, 2018, 02:48:04 pm
Maybe UKB needs a 'Post up evidence of bad crag behaviour'* type thread - like the tick mark hall of fame. Pics of bad parking, litter etc... at the crag.

What made me think of this were the 2 or 3 pics on the YorkshireGrit FB page of people along the top of the stone wall to get to the crag instead of along the muddy path (with pads - not just walkers/stoners)....

It's just posturing though; what you actually need is a method of education that captures the growing routes into climbing (which would've usually entailed someone older/more experienced with an outdoor background) and those willing to actively challenge bad behaviour.

People were more than happy to post on FB about parking etc but only a small minority actually asked people to move or walked the length of the crag asking who's blue Mazda was parked blocking the gate etc.

Also IMO ambassadors for brands/institutions should be called out when leaving kit in etc.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: nai on February 06, 2018, 04:40:26 pm
what you actually need is a method of education that captures the growing routes into climbing

Anyone attempting to buy a bouldering mat has to watch a short film on the countryside code and sit an exam.

Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Paul B on February 06, 2018, 04:59:18 pm
I'm not entirely sure of the solution (as it's complex) but believe it warrants some thought (especially for those promoting the uptake of climbing; including the BMC), as a start, simple things such as:

(http://www.westrock-climbing.com/weblog/files/IMG_6454-420x315.jpg)
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Will Hunt on February 06, 2018, 06:24:02 pm
what you actually need is a method of education that captures the growing routes into climbing

Anyone attempting to buy a bouldering mat has to watch a short film on the countryside code and sit an exam.

You know, that's actually not a terrible thought. Get rid of the exam bit, but it would probably be easy to persuade some of the pad producers to slip an A5 BMC promotional flyer in with all the pads they ship when bought online. Didn't the BMC used to make a poster for walls like "the ten commandments of bouldering"? Something like that? With a link to a website with more info.

Coupled with an increased resolve to call out perpetrators.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Obi-Wan is lost... on February 06, 2018, 07:05:19 pm
Didn't the BMC used to make a poster for walls like "the ten commandments of bouldering"? Something like that?
(https://cdn.ukc2.com/i/28157.jpg)
May need an update.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: nai on February 06, 2018, 07:12:01 pm
For stuff like parking across gates and not damaging walls you could point to the Countryside Code but really they're just about respect and common sense and unfortunately a lot of folk seem to leave that behind when they go out.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: nai on February 06, 2018, 07:14:26 pm
Actually here you go, a RAD App, with location sensor so it'll give you a warning of any access issues when you get close to a particular crag.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: nai on February 06, 2018, 08:05:42 pm
Actually here you go, a RAD App, with location sensor so it'll give you a warning of any access issues when you get close to a particular crag.

Only I see an app already exists  :-[

Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: rginns on February 07, 2018, 02:02:20 pm
If the parking at my kids' school is anything to go by we've got no chance of changing things.

Despite ample parking 2 minutes away a number of folk still try to park 100m either side of the school gate every day, rendering the road a single carriageway with passing spaces, latecomers park across drives and encroach onto the zig zags, thus filling the passing spaces and causing chaos.  Wet days are the worse, absolutely carnage.

We get a letter twice every half term (just had one today which made me think of this), about every four weeks, regular walk-to-school initiatives, even have the police down a couple of times a year to monitor and educate. Nothing ever changes, basically you have otherwise responsible parents saying fuck other kids' safety as long as mine don't have to walk too far and I can get off to work pronto.

A farmer's gate? Fuck that, I want to go climbing and I've only got while the baby's asleep.

Bang on with every point.  :agree:
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: shark on February 07, 2018, 05:11:24 pm
Article on bmc website:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/whitehouses-bouldering-crag-damage-banned
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: turnipturned on February 07, 2018, 05:49:04 pm
My opinions on the Whitehouses situation. Also highlights the damaged caused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsK83G9KjEw&t=4s

Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Will Hunt on February 08, 2018, 08:21:24 am
I think the difference is that the Vixen Tor ban was always seen as being pointless and gratuitous. I'm this instance there is clear documentation of climbers failing to comply with very reasonable requests from the landowner/tenant.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: SA Chris on February 08, 2018, 09:51:55 am
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Sypeland on February 09, 2018, 02:07:11 pm
Today I have been to Cliffe Farm, opposite the gate to see if I could find out more.

When Whitehouses became know via yorkshiregrit.com the land belonged to the farm, but when the house was sold a few years ago the land was not sold with it. The current owner of the house believes the land stayed within the Family. Which is odd because their son was one of the first to climb there.

The current owner of the house does not have a Problem with cars parking near the gate, in fact he has asked climbers why they park down the road!! He thinks it's great that People climb at Whitehouses and sees it as a positive.

So why the landowner has done this is still a mystery, he must have some reasoning no matter how trivial. The good News is that the right Hand side has not been vandalised and not all the Problems on the left are effected. Lets hope the guy sees the Errors of his ways.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Sypeland on February 09, 2018, 02:42:42 pm
One point I noticed on the BMC article is that it sates there is no legal public right of Access. What about the public footpath that runs directly under the crag?
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 09, 2018, 03:35:00 pm
I thought the footpath ran past, rather than underneath the crag?
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: 205Chris on February 09, 2018, 03:51:07 pm
One point I noticed on the BMC article is that it sates there is no legal public right of Access. What about the public footpath that runs directly under the crag?

Might have been OK if everyone just tagged the back of their hand and dropped off  ;)
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: highrepute on February 09, 2018, 03:56:02 pm
Good work Sypeland - the plot thickens.

I believe the footpath runs the other side of the wall beneath the crag. Even if the path ran directly beneath the crag would that give us the right to climb there? - Legally we could walk by and even stop for a picnic.

The other peculiarity is that the gate was clearly only used for access by foot - no track to it down from road, wouldn't open fully - so it's hard to imagine it ever being blocked so badly that it couldn't be used by the farmer in this way. Although, I admit to not knowing the habits and routines of farmers.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 09, 2018, 04:08:23 pm
I've also thought this; you had to lift it to open it and as you say, there's no track...strange. Can imagine the farmer might want to drop some sheep off in the layby but didn't look like he was in the habit of driving through it.

Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Sypeland on February 09, 2018, 04:11:35 pm
Footpath under/next to the Crag;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=418533&y=465072&z=115&sv=418533,465072&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=857&ax=418533&ay=465072&lm=0

Red arrow pointing to the right of the Crag.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: danm on February 09, 2018, 04:16:53 pm
One point I noticed on the BMC article is that it sates there is no legal public right of Access. What about the public footpath that runs directly under the crag?

Why don't you ask Rob directly? He might not see something posted on a forum.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: andy_e on February 09, 2018, 04:42:48 pm
The problem with the gate is not that it was being blocked, but that it was being left open.
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: Sypeland on February 09, 2018, 05:56:58 pm
The problem with the gate is not that it was being blocked, but that it was being left open.

I have passed that gate several times a week for the past 26 years and never seen it open.

That seams remarkably like an excuse being used as a reason?
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: uptown on February 18, 2018, 02:59:57 pm
very sad news...
words fail me
Title: Re: RIP Whitehouses
Post by: tomtom on March 04, 2018, 05:43:34 pm
A moment of humour from a largely bleak story....

http://livingwithwads.tumblr.com/post/171519980518/bad-omen
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal