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the shizzle => shootin' the shit => music, art and culture => Topic started by: stone on April 21, 2024, 09:17:03 am
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I've never been involved in a street protest but I see them as a fairly crucial aspect of democracy.
My impression is that current UK policing is struggling with their endeavours to balance the right to protest and a desire to maintain harmony and order. They seem to be following a (implicit?) protocol where protests are allowed but counter protests confronting such protests are not.
I can see how such a policing strategy has come about. I'm sort of conflicted in my views about it. Is it enough to allow people to stage their own protest so long as it is away from a protest demonstrating the counter viewpoint? Or is that limitation curtailing the most important right of all -the right to stand up against a mob?
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As with many things my views on counter protests and protests come down to what the protests are protesting about. I appreciate that from a legal and policy perspective that's basically useless though.
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As with many things my views on counter protests and protests come down to what the protests are protesting about. I appreciate that from a legal and policy perspective that's basically useless though.
But isn't it crucial to have a system of democracy?
Even, if at a moment in time, we had a government with a viewpoint that perfectly aligned with your own, don't you see that as something precarious that requires democracy in order to keep things OK longer term?
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Do you have actual examples you’re thinking of Stone? There seem to have been plenty of protests and counter protests over the past few years.
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A really interesting topic, Stone. Thanks for posting. There is a lot that could be considered here, but if I may, I will just pick up on one point you make.
I've never been involved in a street protest but I see them as a fairly crucial aspect of democracy.
My impression is that current UK policing is struggling with their endeavours to balance the right to protest and a desire to maintain harmony and order.
Do you think the government is endeavouring to balance -ie to respect- the right to protestt?
Climate protestors might think otherwise. For climbing onto a bridge: 3 years’ imprisonment.
/just-stop-oil-marcus-decker-morgan-trowland-jail-dartford-crossing (https://www.bigissue.com/news/activism/just-stop-oil-marcus-decker-morgan-trowland-jail-dartford-crossing/#:~:text=The%20action%20led%20to%20Morgan,were%20sent%20to%20HMP%20Highpoint.)
For holding a placard reiterating an existing right of juries: on trial at the High Court herself for contempt of court:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68846780
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/13/how-will-recent-and-future-legislation-affect-the-right-to-protest-in-the-uk#:~:text=The%20Police%2C%20Crime%2C%20Sentencing%20and,may%20now%20be%20shut%20down.
UN High Commissioner for Human Rights expresses concern over UK legislation:
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/04/1136107#:~:text=The%20Public%20Order%20Act%20introduces,particular%20people%2C%20or%20even%20to
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Do you have actual examples you’re thinking of Stone? There seem to have been plenty of protests and counter protests over the past few years.
This might be an example. Jewish man threatened with arrest for breach of the peace for being ‘openly Jewish’ near pro Palestine protest march:
https://news.sky.com/story/met-police-chief-mark-rowley-should-resign-says-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-by-officer-13119818
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Do you have actual examples you’re thinking of Stone? There seem to have been plenty of protests and counter protests over the past few years.
This might be an example.
https://news.sky.com/story/met-police-chief-mark-rowley-should-resign-says-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-by-officer-13119818
He wasn’t even counter protesting, he was just there. That was terrible and response so poorly thought through that it’s hard to give any ‘heat of the moment’ benefit of doubt.
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This might be an example. Jewish man threatened with arrest for breach of the peace for being ‘openly Jewish’ near pro Palestine protest march:
Yeah saw this, absolutely mad, I was wondering if this is what prompted the initial post, but not really a counter protest as such as noted?
Also may be worth distinguishing between organised and sanctioned things like the Palestine protests etc. and the Just Stop Oil style gluing oneself to things? There was an interesting article about XR giving up on civil disobedience style protests
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Also may be worth distinguishing between organised and sanctioned things like the Palestine protests etc. and the Just Stop Oil style gluing oneself to things?
Very definitely, good point.
There was an interesting article about XR giving up on civil disobedience style protests
Might be interesting to share this? Coincidentally, I have been listening to Spiral Tribe and reading a bit about the Free Party movement of the 90s recently. You can see links between current youth and climate protests through illegal rave culture back to the earlier 80s New Age Traveller movements.
Two key pieces of legislation in restricting right of assembly and protest are the Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Order_Act_1994 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Order_Act_1994)
and recent Public Order Act (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9899/)
see also https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9899/
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To me, the reporting of the Gideon Falter incident implied that the Police had wronged him in that he wasn't actually counter-protesting, but supposedly, if he had been, it would have been fair enough:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19j892neo
"Mr Falter said he had been walking in the capital after attending synagogue and was not there to counter-protest."
It was that incident that got me thinking about this, but I'm not especially interested that incident, rather the wider point.
Regarding that incident, my impression is that Gideon Falter is an extremely astute activist and that policeman was at best terribly inept. In a previous interview, I've heard police point out that in these Gaza-ceasfire protests there is a very visible "Jews for Justice for Palestinians" presence -with those protestors proclaiming their Jewishness and being welcomed by fellow protestors.
My view is that Gideon Falter must be protected to go wherever he chooses wearing a kippah. I'm asking though whether someone should also be allowed to eg proclaim negative views about the Gaza-ceasfire protests at those protests?
I realise just how fraught and contentious the whole Gaza tragedy is. I've agonised about what to make of it myself:
https://jwmason.org/slackwire/urpe-statement-on-gaza/#comment-15188
https://jwmason.org/slackwire/urpe-statement-on-gaza/#comment-15189
https://jwmason.org/slackwire/urpe-statement-on-gaza/#comment-15190
https://jwmason.org/slackwire/urpe-statement-on-gaza/#comment-15191
....but I think the same policing issue applies to eg EDF marches that get counter-protests and perhaps even some environmental-vs-"freedom" counter protests -not to mention future unforeseen examples.
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I think a lot of people will agree with you Stone, that a maximalist position on either side is doomed to endless conflict without resolution. I'll avoid commenting on that specifically, but if you have not seen The Gatekeepers, I'd urge you to do so. I think you'd find it very interesting.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2309788/
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Might be interesting to share this? Coincidentally, I have been listening to Spiral Tribe and reading a bit about the Free Party movement of the 90s recently. You can see links between current youth and climate protests through illegal rave culture back to the earlier 80s New Age Traveller movements.
Apologies I did mean to share! There was an article in The Guardian around the same time too.
https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/extinction-rebellion-protest-activism-oil-b2264618.html
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On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
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Gideon Falter is renowned as a very prominent and strident activist.
What interested me was that the perceived legitimacy of his complaint is being judged on whether or not he was conducting a counter-protest or just "crossing the road". Shouldn't he be free to counter-protest?
I'm really not sure at all where the police should draw the line. My (armchair ignorant) thought is that he should have been allowed to cross the road with film crew in tow -perhaps even allowed to heckle the marchers. But if he and a dozen fellow activists had eg tried to link arms across the road to block the march, then that should have been stopped by the police.
NB: I want a Gaza ceasefire and I guess have similar views about the Gaza situation as most of the marchers.
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Reading your Skynews link, it makes clear that there was a separate group to the side of the march with Israeli flags and Gideon Faltner objected to the Police asking him to go over to them.
So, my impression (perhaps wrong) is that the Police were happy to allow a counter-protest (with Israeli flags) to the side of the march but weren't happy to risk a sort of hands-on argy-bargy counter-protest. The policeman sort of claimed that Gideon Falter was crossing the road in a way that would have pissed people off irrespective of whether he was "visibly Jewish" -but I guess if some awkward and clumsy person waving a Palestinian flag had walked against the flow of people, the police wouldn't have been concerned for public order.
I'm sort of thinking it was all very artful of Gideon Faltner, but also that he does have a legitimate point that it is very wrong for people to harangue Jews, blaming them for what Israel does -much as it is wrong to eg harangue random Arabs for 9,11 etc. Perhaps a bit of political theatre provoking such a (illegitimate) response from a crowd, is justified?
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For holding a placard reiterating an existing right of juries: on trial at the High Court herself for contempt of court:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68846780
Good to see this one had been thrown out of court https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/22/judge-throws-out-case-against-uk-climate-activist-trudi-warner-sign-jurors-rights
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On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
Essential viewing to get the full context. I think the police in that footage are being the adults in the room and look calm and polite. Of course he has a right of freedom of expression of faith, and to wear whatever he wants and go where he wants. But compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking their own safety and those of the people who would inevitably have to try to sort it out following an inflammation. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.
He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.
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On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
Essential viewing to get the full context. I think the police in that footage are being the adults in the room and look calm and polite. Compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking for their own safety. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.
He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.
That is starting to look like a fair assessment. Especially given the apparent and obvious Jewish presence in the protest (as I understand it). It doesn’t look like it will do either his position or the general “right to protest” much good. The current government don’t need much excuse to move to curtail any form of protest.
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Slightly off topic, but I went on a Criminal Justice Act protest march in Manchester (94?).
It went from the center of town, out along oxford road and ultimately to end in Platt fields park with a stage/speeches etc.
Usual sketch, whistles, horns, noise, banners etc. Generally good vibes.
However, we seemed to march straight past several (locked) entrances straight off Wilmslow road, and were guided into a very narrow side street, (Mabfield Road) down to the 'side' entrance to the park. This street was lined with police horses and the atmosphere instantly went from all fun vibes to a really serious tension. It was quite scary and I was waiting or just one nutter to throw a bottle or something and unleash riotous hell.
If that wasn't a clear case of deliberate 'kettling' I don't know what was. Just so blatent. Words were had in ears and the autorities were just dying for someone to kick off so they could charge in, then label the protesters as hooligans etc. Thankfully, everyone was stoned or loved up ;D (unlike pissed up football fans) so it passed without incident. Probably to the chargrin of the polititians. 8)
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I've been attending protests (and to a much lesser extent, engaging in civil disobedience) for the best part of 40 years.
There's a narrative that in Britain policing is by consent, that is there is some kind of social contract between the authorities, the police and the people that allows for a more consensual, collaborative style (this is often more or less explicitly compared to policing in other countries, as well as being advanced as an explanation for why British police are typically not armed). But the police have always been willing to use violence against protesters and others - witness the killing of Blair Peach in 1979, Orgreave, the Battle of the Beanfield, or the Poll Tax riot. At the same time, over the time I've been involved in protests, one government after another has given them more and more power and discretion. The criminalisation of many perfectly peaceful forms of protest is now getting very worrying. Freedom to protest is significantly curtailed at this point.
I must have been to at least 20 Gaza related protests in Copenhagen over the last six months and the contrast in policing styles is striking. Even on marches of c.60-80,000 people I doubt ever seen more than 10 police officers along an entire route, including outside parliament, where marches typically end. The lightness with which protesting is policed here is pretty mind-blowing.
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That's really interesting Andy. In Copenhagen have there been counter-protests to the Gaza protests and have any of those entailed rowdyness?
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Of course he has a right of freedom of expression of faith, and to wear whatever he wants and go where he wants. But compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking their own safety and those of the people who would inevitably have to try to sort it out following an inflammation. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.
He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.
My impression is that football supporting is sort of viewed as an exception where tribal hostility is allowed to let rip.
I think it is right and proper that other aspects of life are not allowed to be like football rivalry. No one simply being themselves, expressing their faith or ethnicity or whatever, should feel that in doing that they are somehow part of "the wrong team".
Don't get me wrong, I personally view Gideon Falter as something of an adversary. He worked very hard to portray/reveal "Corbynism" as supposedly being a antisemitic and I'm and ardent supporter of "Corbynism". But I also think it is important to protect everyone and anyone from racism etc.
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In Copenhagen have there been counter-protests to the Gaza protests and have any of those entailed rowdyness?
I haven't seen any counter protests, or any trouble of any kind (not claiming there has been none, only that I haven't seen any).
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On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
Essential viewing to get the full context. I think the police in that footage are being the adults in the room and look calm and polite. Of course he has a right of freedom of expression of faith, and to wear whatever he wants and go where he wants. But compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking their own safety and those of the people who would inevitably have to try to sort it out following an inflammation. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.
He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.
There was also a piece on C4 news - where they found phone footage of Gideon F trying to cross the march on at least two other occasions and being asked not to by two different police officers. It appears that his behavior was being observed by a plain clothes officer and when G was challenged about this and denied it - said officer piped up to contradict him.
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Rosa Park's act was also staged political theatre. She is rightly seen as a hero.
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On Gideon Falter there was was an ex superintendent on the TV this morning defending the Lawrence family concerns. He also mentioned it's worth watching the full news clip on Sky news. Gideon had a camera crew ready and was trying to cross the path of the March itself. The superintendent was clear the Jewish comments were totally unacceptable but Gideon doesn't seem to be quite what he claimed.
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
Essential viewing to get the full context. I think the police in that footage are being the adults in the room and look calm and polite. Of course he has a right of freedom of expression of faith, and to wear whatever he wants and go where he wants. But compare with a normal weekend afternoon up and down the country when rowdy opposing tribes of football fans are escorted by police in an effort to try to retain the peace, and not allow potentially volatile crowds to antagonise each other to the point of violence... we don't hear much about self-important football fans claiming they're being victimised by not being allowed their freedom to freely walk into an emotionally-charged crowd of people who may not like you very much, risking their own safety and those of the people who would inevitably have to try to sort it out following an inflammation. And then complaining that the police aren't keeping them safe by allowing public order to breakdown because of their lemming-like fondness for a confrontation with reality.
He's acting like a man-baby. Says it all that now the fuller picture has emerged that he claims he's now being victim-blamed. He has 'want-to-be-victim-of-injustice' stamped all over his core based on that footage.
There was also a piece on C4 news - where they found phone footage of Gideon F trying to cross the march on at least two other occasions and being asked not to by two different police officers. It appears that his behavior was being observed by a plain clothes officer and when G was challenged about this and denied it - said officer piped up to contradict him.
Whatever one may think about GF, a point remains that the marches are not safe places for Jews (nor Iranians) who do not join in with the slogans. The police know this and that is why they police away counter-protesters who insist on placing themselves in the march.
I imagine that GF was seeking to illustrate this. And even if he wasn't I don't really care bc the point still stands.
I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.
I appreciate that it is the first time that it's been quite so hostile; I've been going to synagogue there for decades and this has never happened before. That said, there's usually 10 police around premises at kicking out time but first day Pesach isn't the best attended service.
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a point remains that the marches are not safe places for Jews (nor Iranians) who do not join in with the slogans. The police know this and that is why they police away counter-protesters who insist on placing themselves in the march.
Err, I think there is a considerable difference between “not join[ing] in” and counter-protest. What is evidenced by the police’s response (as was ever thus) is that it’s usually a bad idea to have a large number of people (one one side or both sides) who hold opposing views, both demonstrating these views, to come together.
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Rosa Park's act was also staged political theatre. She is rightly seen as a hero.
Rosa Parks had no recourse to (edit: legal) protest.
A procession in London (and elsewhere in the UK) requires organisers to inform the police (and others). If other groups desired to (counter-) protest, this is often facilitated (witness NI marches), but elsewhere.
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Rosa Park's act was also staged political theatre. She is rightly seen as a hero.
Rosa Parks had no recourse to (edit: legal) protest.
The comparison is a poor one for all kinds of reasons.
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a point remains that the marches are not safe places for Jews (nor Iranians) who do not join in with the slogans. The police know this and that is why they police away counter-protesters who insist on placing themselves in the march.
Err, I think there is a considerable difference between “not join[ing] in” and counter-protest. What is evidenced by the police’s response (as was ever thus) is that it’s usually a bad idea to have a large number of people (one one side or both sides) who hold opposing views, both demonstrating these views, to come together.
Quite. I imagine most protests are not safe feeling places for counter protestors. I wouldn't feel safe going to a pro-X demo as an anti-X person or vice versa, whether X is to do with Gaza, immigration, lockdowns, animal testing etc. I imagine there are some subjects that this wouldnt be true for, probably less "life and death", maybe public sector pay or something, though it would probably still be a sensible idea to keep any sides apart as far as possible.
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I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).
My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".
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Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".
the guy who made the stickers (but didn’t necessarily place them) is now in prison for 2 years (https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/updated-sentence-far-right-organiser-found-guilty-intent-stir-racial-hatred-through)
So the CPS at least take this sort of thing very seriously
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I think maybe Mike's point is…
I think your and Mike’s points both conflate legitimate peaceful protest with bigoted and/or antisemitic behaviour.
There are always opportunistic people with unsavoury/offensive/illegal views who will try pervert a legitimate movement. These people don’t disappear by banning protests. You also have to weigh up the pros and cons of banning protests. It’s a pretty slippery slope to authoritarianism.
I would also highlight the very small number of arrests made at these protests relative to the number of protesters. (There are arguments that there have been too few arrests but, even multiplying by 10 is still small numbers.)
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I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).
My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".
I’m fucking done with extremists of all stripes.
Protesting or fighting for basic freedoms and simple human rights? Crack on, I’m with you.
Rosa, wasn’t advocating the genocide or oppression of others, only the obvious injustice of segregation. Aka, protesting for basic human rights and freedoms.
Any right minded person can see the Oct 7th was wrong, just as the same person should see the subsequent response in the same light.
I work with a Palestinian who is ardently anti-Hummus (for the Google bots, I think he enjoys crushed Chickpeas). I know plenty of Muslims who are passionately anti-religious extremism, despite being devout.
Aside: I traveled to Amsterdam last Nov with an Egyptian friend, who became vocal and (frankly) embarrassingly confrontational, with some Dutch Muslims at immigration, because of how they were dressed and their obviously strict attitude to Islam. Arguing with them about whether theirs was a true interpretation of the Koran. Then endured a long rant about how “these people” discredit his entire religion and the people of the middle East in the taxi to our hotel.
I’ve heard all kinds of different opinions from Muslims regarding Israel and Palestine. Many that surprised me.
There is obviously a huge difference between various groups of Israelis, with the current situation massively protested there.
I’m becoming an anti-extremist, extremist…
(That’s a weak joke, not an actual position).
Fed up with idiots who think extreme acts will solve anything. They just make things worse and make resolution a pipe dream and the lives of ordinary people miserable.
Ultimately, idiots who provoke confrontation are just handing ammunition to those who would like to see all forms of protest eliminated. I absolutely draw a line between legitimate protest against injustice and advocating for discrimination or violence against A.N.Other group.
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There are always opportunistic people with unsavoury/offensive/illegal views
Sorry to be pedantic here, but I’m pretty sure it is (currently..) legal to hold any view, just not always to publically write or say it , or make stickers
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There are always opportunistic people with unsavoury/offensive/illegal views
Sorry to be pedantic here, but I’m pretty sure it is (currently..) legal to hold any view, just not always to publically write or say it , or make stickers
It was shorthand but since you seem to have understood the point being made I think I need not add more.
FYI: it is illegal to incite hatred and there all sorts of public order offences around protests, and various civil matters around defamation, slander, etc, etc, etc
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Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".
the guy who made the stickers (but didn’t necessarily place them) is now in prison for 2 years (https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/updated-sentence-far-right-organiser-found-guilty-intent-stir-racial-hatred-through)
So the CPS at least take this sort of thing very seriously
Ah, that's excellent! I hadn't realised this had happened. That is indeed the organisation that had planted the stickers and I was pleased at the time that the police did attend and look for evidence (they looked for prints and checked CCTV).
Regarding my previous post I wasn't really making a point, just trying to add some extra weight to Mike's point that Jews may have very good reason to feel less safe in the UK than they've felt in a long time. I've read the thread but not felt compelled to respond as don't think I have much to add. I broadly agree with a right to counter-protest but if that's going to involve intentionally provoking the other side to do you harm then the police have a job to prevent that.
I did think that Stone's comment in the OP about "standing up to the mob" was daft. Who decides who is the mob? I think the EDL are a mob, some people will think that Extinction Rebellion/Just Stop Oil/people protesting the Iraq war are/were a mob. Every peaceful protest is somebody else's mob.
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very late to the party, but are you guys debating weather it is a good idea to have separate entries for the manchester united and liverpool ultras berfore the match, and to let the police enforce the separation? It is.
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I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.
That’s grim, sorry to read this.
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I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.
I appreciate that it is the first time that it's been quite so hostile; I've been going to synagogue there for decades and this has never happened before. That said, there's usually 10 police around premises at kicking out time but first day Pesach isn't the best attended service.
Mike, I am appalled that you were subjected to that. Solidarity to you and to anyone else having to put up with that.
Your experience makes me much more sympathetic towards GF's demonstration. Evidently he wasn't provoking something that otherwise wouldn't be there (that was what I had ignorantly presumed). Rather he was revealing what you've had to put up with.
For people saying my Rosa Park comparison is bogus, I'm not sure it is. GF was clumsy in that he was being annoying in walking against the flow of marchers. But if GF had just been walking along and had been harassed (as Mike and his family were) then I think that would have been appalling and a cause for soul searching by all of us.
Like I said, I haven't been on a march ever, but I have manned a "justice for Palestinians" street stall a couple of times. I would have remonstrated with any marchers if I saw them harassing Mike. I think it is shameful that that wasn't the overwhelming response of marchers when Mike was harassed.
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makes me much more sympathetic towards GF's demonstration. Evidently he wasn't provoking something that otherwise wouldn't be there (that was what I had ignorantly presumed).
Judging by the timings, I don’t believe Mike’s (terrible) experience -on Monday- was related to any authorised procession.
The antagonising person to whom you refer, was not assaulted, nor were they the recipient of any hateful speech, etc. on that well publicised day. A police officer in a long conversation with them, used an ill-advised phrase/reason, and the police more generally prevented them from (repeatedly attempting to) counter-protesting within the procession.
The person to which you refer, could have organised and registered their intention to have a procession against the unacceptable abuse and harassment being experienced by the Jewish community (and the Met Police’s response, that appears to be their issue). That may have been facilitated elsewhere. Instead they sought to conflate two issues: pro-Palestinian support and anti- harassment of Jewish people in the UK (especially London). Two issues which, I’m sure, are simultaneously supported by many people.
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I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).
My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".
I’m fucking done with extremists of all stripes.
Protesting or fighting for basic freedoms and simple human rights? Crack on, I’m with you.
Rosa, wasn’t advocating the genocide or oppression of others, only the obvious injustice of segregation. Aka, protesting for basic human rights and freedoms.
Any right minded person can see the Oct 7th was wrong, just as the same person should see the subsequent response in the same light.
I work with a Palestinian who is ardently anti-Hummus (for the Google bots, I think he enjoys crushed Chickpeas). I know plenty of Muslims who are passionately anti-religious extremism, despite being devout.
Aside: I traveled to Amsterdam last Nov with an Egyptian friend, who became vocal and (frankly) embarrassingly confrontational, with some Dutch Muslims at immigration, because of how they were dressed and their obviously strict attitude to Islam. Arguing with them about whether theirs was a true interpretation of the Koran. Then endured a long rant about how “these people” discredit his entire religion and the people of the middle East in the taxi to our hotel.
I’ve heard all kinds of different opinions from Muslims regarding Israel and Palestine. Many that surprised me.
There is obviously a huge difference between various groups of Israelis, with the current situation massively protested there.
I’m becoming an anti-extremist, extremist…
(That’s a weak joke, not an actual position).
Fed up with idiots who think extreme acts will solve anything. They just make things worse and make resolution a pipe dream and the lives of ordinary people miserable.
Ultimately, idiots who provoke confrontation are just handing ammunition to those who would like to see all forms of protest eliminated. I absolutely draw a line between legitimate protest against injustice and advocating for discrimination or violence against A.N.Other group.
Broadly I'd agree with you but I would say that part of the issue is the definition of extremism and how some actors look to use that to influence the narrative. For example, "Free Palestine" is a statement which to the Israeli government and it's supporters is extremist, antisemitic etc. For others it is an eminently sensible and moral thing to state and support. I think that saying, for example, that the UK shouldn't sell arms to a fascistic Israeli gov is perfectly reasonable. Practically and morally how does it benefit us! Suggest that to the Israeli ambassador to the UK and I suspect you'll be labelled something along the lines of extremist. And as Will says, we get "The Woke Mob" chucked around now. To Suella going out on these marches basically makes you an extremist.
This comes along in lots of other areas too, not just this one. So yeah I do broadly agree but also I'm cautious of statements which
appear like basic common sense really but then get muddy when you ask who says what is extremism?
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makes me much more sympathetic towards GF's demonstration. Evidently he wasn't provoking something that otherwise wouldn't be there (that was what I had ignorantly presumed).
Judging by the timings, I don’t believe Mike’s (terrible) experience -on Monday- was related to any authorised procession.
The antagonising person to whom you refer, was not assaulted, nor were they the recipient of any hateful speech, etc. on that well publicised day. A police officer in a long conversation with them, used an ill-advised phrase/reason, and the police more generally prevented them from (repeatedly attempting to) counter-protesting within the procession.
The person to which you refer, could have organised and registered their intention to have a procession against the unacceptable abuse and harassment being experienced by the Jewish community (and the Met Police’s response, that appears to be their issue). That may have been facilitated elsewhere. Instead they sought to conflate two issues: pro-Palestinian support and anti- harassment of Jewish people in the UK (especially London). Two issues which, I’m sure, are simultaneously supported by many people.
The transcript at https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104 says:
As well as chants of "Palestine will be free" there were also shouts of "shame on you" and "scum".
On what basis was it OK for them to shout "shame on you" and "scum"?
Are you claiming that was purely to do with GF walking against the flow of marchers or something?
My interpretation is that the people shouting "shame on you" and "scum" were doing so because they were blaming anyone wearing a kippah for the horrors in Gaza. It is so wrong to do that -don't you agree?
It is not enough to personally not view random British Jews as being to blame for Gaza. What appals me is that fellow marchers didn't step in and remonstrate with those who were shouting such abuse.
The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.
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The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.
Well said, Stone.
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I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.
That’s grim, sorry to read this.
Jon, Stone
Thank you for your kind words.
And, to clarify things, this was an encounter with a pedestrian rather than a demonstration.
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As well as chants of "Palestine will be free" there were also shouts of "shame on you" and "scum".
On what basis was it OK for them to shout "shame on you" and "scum"?
Are you claiming that was purely to do with GF walking against the flow of marchers or something?
My interpretation is that the people shouting "shame on you" and "scum" were doing so because they were blaming anyone wearing a kippah for the horrors in Gaza. is so wrong to do that -don't you agree?
Given the police presence, one might assume that they did not believe this to constitute a hate crime and did indeed come to the conclusion that it would not be beyond reasonable doubt that such remarks were made because that person was deliberately seeking to disrupt an authorised procession, rather than for any protected characteristic.
Do I agree with calling anyone “scum” ? No.
I’d point out it was an extremely large procession and the numbers making insulting comments (as far as we can tell) rather small.
Have you watched the video for the context of those remarks?
What appals me is that fellow marchers didn't step in and remonstrate with those who were shouting such abuse.
You think a procession of that size is a homogenous group of comrades? The majority will be strangers to one another.
A New Testament quote is apt here:
Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
The next time you see a group of lads on the street having some verbal, I hope you will step in (and avoid injury).
On a more minor level, next time you’re at the crag and you see a fellow climber littering with their finger tape or playing music in a nature reserve, I trust you will go over and ask them not to.
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I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).
My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".
I’m fucking done with extremists of all stripes.
Protesting or fighting for basic freedoms and simple human rights? Crack on, I’m with you.
Rosa, wasn’t advocating the genocide or oppression of others, only the obvious injustice of segregation. Aka, protesting for basic human rights and freedoms.
Any right minded person can see the Oct 7th was wrong, just as the same person should see the subsequent response in the same light.
I work with a Palestinian who is ardently anti-Hummus (for the Google bots, I think he enjoys crushed Chickpeas). I know plenty of Muslims who are passionately anti-religious extremism, despite being devout.
Aside: I traveled to Amsterdam last Nov with an Egyptian friend, who became vocal and (frankly) embarrassingly confrontational, with some Dutch Muslims at immigration, because of how they were dressed and their obviously strict attitude to Islam. Arguing with them about whether theirs was a true interpretation of the Koran. Then endured a long rant about how “these people” discredit his entire religion and the people of the middle East in the taxi to our hotel.
I’ve heard all kinds of different opinions from Muslims regarding Israel and Palestine. Many that surprised me.
There is obviously a huge difference between various groups of Israelis, with the current situation massively protested there.
I’m becoming an anti-extremist, extremist…
(That’s a weak joke, not an actual position).
Fed up with idiots who think extreme acts will solve anything. They just make things worse and make resolution a pipe dream and the lives of ordinary people miserable.
Ultimately, idiots who provoke confrontation are just handing ammunition to those who would like to see all forms of protest eliminated. I absolutely draw a line between legitimate protest against injustice and advocating for discrimination or violence against A.N.Other group.
Broadly I'd agree with you but I would say that part of the issue is the definition of extremism and how some actors look to use that to influence the narrative. For example, "Free Palestine" is a statement which to the Israeli government and it's supporters is extremist, antisemitic etc. For others it is an eminently sensible and moral thing to state and support. I think that saying, for example, that the UK shouldn't sell arms to a fascistic Israeli gov is perfectly reasonable. Practically and morally how does it benefit us! Suggest that to the Israeli ambassador to the UK and I suspect you'll be labelled something along the lines of extremist. And as Will says, we get "The Woke Mob" chucked around now. To Suella going out on these marches basically makes you an extremist.
This comes along in lots of other areas too, not just this one. So yeah I do broadly agree but also I'm cautious of statements which
appear like basic common sense really but then get muddy when you ask who says what is extremism?
Absolutely, but this kind of forum makes full expression so hard to articulate. I think everyone here is mostly right, for a given value of right. I had meant to extend my opinions on extremism to (particularly) the current government, who, to my mind, peddle hatred and division (for petty personal gain and power grabbing, rather than deeply held ideological beliefs). Pay/reward them enough and they’d flip 180 on any given position.
Stone makes a good point, but I can’t see GF as more than a self promoting, grandstander, who may have done more harm than good to his purported cause. Blinkered at best.
Does anyone imagine the average Met Copper (already stuck in the middle of an argument even the greatest statespeople have failed to solve for, what, three generations) is suddenly going to feel kindly disposed to people like GF? Policing of a city like London and it’s, often opaque, cliques, racial/national communities, gangs etc etc, is already (probably) enough to beat the ideals out of even the most idealistic recruit, in short order. Is diversity trading actually going to give some hardened old sweat an appreciation of what it’s like to be a Jew in London? Damn sure they already have a fleet of advisors and representatives. Should we be advocating for separate policing of individual communities, by members of that community? I reckon I could see a problem or two there…
Here, we’ve bumbled along under an antiquated political system, set up to govern a vastly smaller population, in a time when education was hard to come by and diversity limited, for centuries and it’s creaking (cracking really) under the strain of a huge, incomprehensibly diverse, population. Political influence is no longer constrained by the ability to read and write, nor by access to the media, all of which is now effectively universal.
It’s all probably going to get much worse before (if) it gets better.
Looking at some of the shit my partner has to deal with in her school, I can’t see it getting better soon. I’d love to think education is the answer, but teenagers are not the most stable or receptive audience…
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The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.
Just to point out: this is a completely specious statement. It actually makes exceptionally little sense in the Israel-Palestine (inc. Gaza) context.
I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.
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I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.
From one pedant to another: I think the intended meaning was clear enough. Wittgenstein aficionados may disagree.
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I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.
From one pedant to another: I think the intended meaning was clear enough. Wittgenstein aficionados may disagree.
Well, “stand up for” does rather imply a more confrontational approach than “tolerance”. They really are quite different.
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I’d love to think education is the answer, but teenagers are not the most stable or receptive audience…
It’s not the single, magic bullet-type answer, but it’s going to be cheaper in the long run than ceding to ignorance. And it doesn’t start and stop at the school gate. We are all involved in educating each other and I thank this forum for that; it’s a stimulating place, with some thought provoking posters (thanks to Stone for starting this thread).
There’s no single answer, but schools have a role play. I’d say formal education is a key component of a successful society, which is why the decline of curriculum time for arts and creative subjects since 2010 is such a loss. Creative and critical thinking is essential in shaping a healthy society.
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Tony, that rather depends on your understanding of ‘confrontational’. Asserting the validity of others’ rights to be different; active tolerance, let’s say. That was my reading and a position I’d agree with.
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Meanwhile, on American university campuses, the right to protest (let alone counter protest) appears to dying a rapid death.
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There was also a piece on C4 news - where they found phone footage of bloke trying to cross the march on at least two other occasions and being asked not to by two different police officers. It appears that his behavior was being observed by a plain clothes officer and when G was challenged about this and denied it - said officer piped up to contradict him.
Bit of a weird flex; I edited that VT.
The episode was plainly a stunt; one that he would argue serves to draw attention to the very real situation such as Mike is describing.
Jewish colleagues, notable very serious journalists, tend to think that it doesn't help at all and fans the flames. I listened to a couple of big rants about his antics and those state funded type organisations that don't represent the views of most jewish Londoners.
I wonder if it does help; keeping the wider antisemitism in the public eye...? Aside from this informed conversation most people just see the initial headlines.
In the footage there are Jewish people who were on the Free GAza march, trying to help the police/ intervene with the stunt because this bloke is a widely known character. Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest; someone mentioned the 'shame on you' more innocent end of it. Unusually the police come out of this whole thing really well.
As Andy points out, things are better here.
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The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.
Just to point out: this is a completely specious statement. It actually makes exceptionally little sense in the Israel-Palestine (inc. Gaza) context.
I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.
What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.
Perhaps your point is that is being intolerant of racist abusers and not respecting the validity of their racism or something. Well yes it is and yes that is what we must do.
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Perhaps your point is that is being intolerant of racist abusers and not respecting the validity of their racism or something.
Er, no, manifestly that was not my point and I’ll sue you for libel should you wish to write that more definitively- I jest.
What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.
And my point was, in daily life this -sadly- happens all the time because: people don’t want to speak out or people feel unable to speak out (due to power imbalance or intimidation or wanting to belong, etc, etc) or people expect someone else to speak out.
In that procession, I expect most people would not agree with insulting behaviour but they may not have felt able or willing to confront it. They may also have felt intimidated.
Can you genuinely say you’ve never turned a blind eye to anything, ever? If not, you’ve either led a very righteous life indeed or you’re very blind.
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Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest; someone mentioned the 'shame on you' more innocent end of it.
For those of us who are ill informed, what do the counter protestors 'want' (notionally, within the confines of them being lots of people wanting different things etc.)? If the protesters notionally want ceasefire, do the counter protestors want IDF to keep smashing civilians or want anyone who supports ceasefire or thinks IDF and Netanyahu are c*nts to STFU? If they just want antisemites to STFU it seems like a pity that it ends up as "protest" and "counter protest" when lots of people probably agree with both :shrug:
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Perhaps some counter-protestors want unwavering support for a military solution to Hamas. -to ensure that Hamas can never again mount an attack -and that people in Gaza will be frightened off supporting a similar organisation in the future.
Like I've said, I think that is a misguided and forlorn course to attempt, that would only lead to worsening tragedy all round. But it isn't so far from what our government (with support from the opposition) is standing behind.
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The episode was plainly a stunt.
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Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest
Part of the difficulty is that individual does routinely claim their actions are as a “private individual” yet they run a campaign group and their private actions frequently appear to be filmed by people in an entourage.
They do not claim on these occasions to be “demonstrating”. They are, therefore, not authorised to demonstrate and they have not discussed policing arrangements and other security and crowd management arrangements.
There are often official parallel-demonstrations. (As abarro81 points out, it’s not clear if it’s sensible to call these “counter-demonstrations”; probably more anti-specific-demonstration demonstrations?) At these, the police do attend and they have investigated incidents of hate crime, intimidation, etc. (Even if there are not arrests, people may be warned and/or records made on the Police National Computer.)
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Perhaps some counter-protestors want unwavering support for a military solution to Hamas... But it isn't so far from what our government (with support from the opposition) is standing behind.
I'm not sure you can consider the government's motivations without noting that it isn't just Hamas that threatens Israel, but a bunch of other actors in the region who do things that we don't like, such as disrupting shipping through the Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea, and thus the Suez Canal.
I'm not writing this to make any case for or against supplying Israel with arms, just to point out that if you don't consider the wider geopolitics of the region then you won't understand our government's position.
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What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.
And my point was, in daily life this -sadly- happens all the time because: people don’t want to speak out or people feel unable to speak out (due to power imbalance or intimidation or wanting to belong, etc, etc) or people expect someone else to speak out.
In that procession, I expect most people would not agree with insulting behaviour but they may not have felt able or willing to confront it. They may also have felt intimidated.
I'm sticking by saying they should be ashamed of themselves for not having the courage to confront it.
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I'm sticking by saying they should be ashamed of themselves for not having the courage to confront it.
“Appalled” and “shame” are strong remarks from a person who calls for tolerance and was not present and has never participated in a procession.
Humility and understanding, anyone?
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Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism. Last time I checked that was a good thing.
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Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism. Last time I checked that was a good thing.
No sean, he’s appalled by people who do not necessarily condone insulting behaviour but did not actively intervene. He says they should be ashamed of themselves.
Trite comments are attractive but usually inaccurate.
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He said he doesn’t want to see “harassment and abuse” at peace marches, and says people who accept it should be ashamed of themselves. It does seem to me that in context of this discussion “abuse” is not just political but also strays into the religious and ethnic. In which case, Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism.
As an aside, how intimidating can marchers be before it stops being a “peace march”?
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For those of us who are ill informed, what do the counter protestors 'want' (notionally, within the confines of them being lots of people wanting different things etc.)? If the protesters notionally want ceasefire, do the counter protestors want IDF to keep smashing civilians or want anyone who supports ceasefire or thinks IDF and Netanyahu are c*nts to STFU? If they just want antisemites to STFU it seems like a pity that it ends up as "protest" and "counter protest" when lots of people probably agree with both :shrug:
There's been a consistent message that they want the hostages released. That's it.
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It does seem to me that in context of this discussion “abuse” is not just political but also strays into the religious and ethnic.
That may be your reality Sean, but Stone specifically refers to the participants of this procession relating specifically to the widely publicised incident. Stating that those participants in the procession who did not actively intervene should be ashamed. As I’ve amply illustrated it is not clear whether that particular insulting behaviour was, in fact, racist.
It was not a general point that people should be ashamed if they do not intervene when they witness racism. Though, as I’ve listed above, there are human factors which may explain why this does not always happen.
Zero tolerance (of anything) is a nice idea but seldom realistic to achieve.