UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: remus on May 25, 2023, 09:06:22 pm
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I was idly wondering today about examples of famous routes and problems that are chipped. The first few that came to mind were:
- Le Rose et le vampire
- Carnage - Bas Cuvier
- Rock Atrocity
- Hugh - Fred Rouhling's 9a
- Bronx
Im sure there's loads more that are missing. I was mainly thinking of stuff that is blatantly chipped rather than things that have been reinforced a little, though obviously it's all a spectrum.
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Is Pamplemousse in Brione quite a notorious one? Amazing rock features on it and then a perfect carved slot right in the middle.
Also may be completely wrong / committing sacrilege but...Midnight Lightning?
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Do they have to be internationally famous? If not Manic Strain and Cafe Libre
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Colossus on rainbow walls
Manic strain etc
The keel
Downhill racer
Oedipus ring your mother
Pocketeering and the other one on that face
Black chipper
Dave birkett’s made to measure thing at his local slate quarry
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At Kilnsey the trad route Claws is chipped. Some holds on Dalliance are chipped, thread on UKC years ago.
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Another Fred Rouhling: L’autre Côté du Ciel.
Just Do It, Smith Rock?
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Small Brown chip on the arête so you could use rope tension.
The chip on the Keel is a foothold for the 4 plus stand start.
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Pocket at bottom of Milky Way.
I’ll get my coat.
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Font:
Arabesque
Beatle Juice
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Body Machine?
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Much of magic wood is manufactured I believe?
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Pocket at bottom of Milky Way.
I’ll get my coat.
all the peg scarred routes that are now climbed without aid
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Everything at Bout du Monde from Tabou Zizi rightwards I think
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Not a route, but I noticed a couple of days ago that someone has gone to town on the approach scramble to the corner of Dinas Cromlech. Looks like an attempt to counteract the polish. :worms:
Lots of tiny chips all over it.
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Those Mark Edwards routes in Cornwall with the magic cam slots?
Manic Strain and Colossus mentioned, but there are plenty more on slate. Ride the Wild Surf and Menopausal Discharge for starters. Though chipping slate seems somehow less egregious than most rocks, even those in quarries. Maybe because the workings had barely stopped before people started climbing there.
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For the retro fans, Cheat at Wilton 1.
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Pocket at bottom of Milky Way.
I’ll get my coat.
all the peg scarred routes that are now climbed without aid
I guess you could make a distinction between accidental scarring from aid climbers and calculated scarring with the intention of climbing routes free. "Mr X" on Milky Way and Ray Jardine on The Phoenix being examples of the latter. Wellington Crack might be a bit of both: Livesey is supposed to have encouraged his outdoor activities students practice their pegging on it before his free ascent, no idea if it's true but it's so in character I want to believe it!
Jardine's eponymous traverse on The Nose must be one of the more famous and blatant examples.
Taking an ice axe on routes and creating holds was apparently common practice in the 19th century. The Collie Step on Moss Ghyll (1892!) a famous example.
Yorkshire grit is full of examples but the Derbyshire and Staffordshire equivalents much less so. Were the latter much less climbed - more vigorously wardened perhaps - during the era when chipping was more accepted?
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Linden.
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I guess Buckstone Dyno in a sense
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La Dura Dura has to be one of the most iconic. Not a natural hold on the hard part.
Like Bradders, I strongly suspect the lighting-bolt hold on Midnight lighting, but without checking with a ladder I could not say for sure
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Take it or leave it in Verdon is perhaps not famous anymore, as no one goes there nowadays
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I was always quite suspicious of Doubting Thomas at Malham, although not sure if it was a known Livesey indiscretion. The key hold on the crux seemed to me to be "a bit unnatural".
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Cider Soak (created rather than chipped I guess)
There's loads of detail of chipping on slate here:
https://snowdoniamountainguides.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Slate_Historical_Section.pdf
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The Cad was supposed to have been chipped
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I guess Buckstone Dyno in a sense
Likewise Angel's Share etc.
La Balance at Cuvier would be one of more famous and egregious examples. Possibly Abattoir too. Funny old place Cuvier, full of chipped holds to make problems easier, and pokey eliminates and link ups to make problems harder.
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Body Machine?
Definitely. I was pretty surprised by how blatant it was as it rarely gets mentioned vs stuff like Downhill Racer. The profile of Downhill is likewise hard to fathom once you've been to a few Yorkshire crags.
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Scrittos? Wasn't Johnny vociferous about that one somewhere.
Out of interest, which is the chipped hold on Downhill. I cant see that they were 'all' chipped, so was it one in particular? The one you reach from the mantle.
Loads of JD's routes got chipped after he'd done them. Perplexity was one. What were the others?
Wasn't Hairless Heart another that was retro chipped.
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La Balance at Cuvier would be one of more famous and egregious examples. Possibly Abattoir too. Funny old place Cuvier, full of chipped holds to make problems easier, and pokey eliminates and link ups to make problems harder.
I think even some of the problems that don't look chipped at Cuvier have had a helping hand, putting divots into slopers etc. I think I was told the RH sloper, and possibly the starting rail of Berezina were improved.
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I wonder if the curious pun La Bérézina/L'abbé Résina is an allusion?
https://www.expressio.fr/expressions/c-est-la-berezina
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Out of interest, which is the chipped hold on Downhill. I cant see that they were 'all' chipped, so was it one in particular? The one you reach from the mantle
None of them are obviously chipped like the average yorkshire boulder. I've always thought it was the left hand hold in the break you start the crux off. But I'll give them a closer look next time (might be autumn now mind).
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Yorkshire grit is full of examples but the Derbyshire and Staffordshire equivalents much less so. Were the latter much less climbed - more vigorously wardened perhaps - during the era when chipping was more accepted?
Black Rocks (developed much earlier than most Peak crags due to proximity to public transport and not being on a grouse moor) has lots of ancient chipped routes- Robin Hood’s Stride was popular during the same era and lots of the old routes and problems there are chipped too.
Staffs grit was developed decades later. Only three routes pre-1920s on the Roaches.
Another Livesey one is Guillotine- in his interview in the current guide Fawcett talks about trying it lots unsuccessfully but when he went back to it after Livesey’s FA he found there was a new pocket that enabled him to make the crux move easily.
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Scrittos? Wasn't Johnny vociferous about that one somewhere.
Out of interest, which is the chipped hold on Downhill. I cant see that they were 'all' chipped, so was it one in particular? The one you reach from the mantle.
Loads of JD's routes got chipped after he'd done them. Perplexity was one. What were the others?
Wasn't Hairless Heart another that was retro chipped.
Sad Amongst Friends was one of JD's that got chipped.
Yes Hairless Heart got chipped.
Both these lots of chippings got filled in.
My dad (he was a climber) told me that Joe's Slab at Froggatt was originally done by putting an old penny in a thin horizontal slot and rocking over onto it. Eventually this broke the top lip off the slot leaving a foothold that's now used instead. I've no idea if the story is apocryphal.
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Is there something of an 'art' to chipping gritstone that means when its done it doesn't just leave a sandy mess? eg. the chip on the keel seems totally solid and not sandy at all, but all the newer chips at Robin Hoods Stride still look awful and exposed really soft rock 10 years since they were done. Is it just the passage of time?
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Pickpocket and Kelly’s Eye at Stoney.
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Is there something of an 'art' to chipping gritstone that means when its done it doesn't just leave a sandy mess? eg. the chip on the keel seems totally solid and not sandy at all, but all the newer chips at Robin Hoods Stride still look awful and exposed really soft rock 10 years since they were done. Is it just the passage of time?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_rind ?
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Drilled three finger pocket on Firestarter at Devil’s Gorge (Pantymwyn).
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Never heard of half these routes/problems. Remus came up with a few international A listers but some of these are the equivalent of the line up for celebrity bake off :lol:
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Think it might have been in The Island vol. 1 that Dave Graham says the project on the Biographie wall (which I think became Mr. Hyde?) would be the first completely natural route on that wall.... Which would imply that Biographie has some unnatural holds?
The start boulder of Black Bean/Les Colonettes is unapologetically drilled (unfortunately by someone without much flair for route setting).
I've also heard that Action Direct originally had an easier line breaking out to the right but the pockets got filled in to force the direct - would be curious to know if anyone knows more about that.
Another A-lister would be the Jardine Traverse on the Nose. (Edit - duncan already got that one!)
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Half the famous hard routes in the world are chipped from the sounds of it!
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Think it might have been in The Island vol. 1 that Dave Graham says the project on the Biographie wall (which I think became Mr. Hyde?) would be the first completely natural route on that wall.... Which would imply that Biographie has some unnatural holds?
Originally Biographie did not have any manufactured holds. As I understand it, Lafaille bolted and "projected" Biographie specifically so that the line would avoid the fate of getting manufactured holds, in the same way as M. Le Menestrel protected Bombé Bleu in Buoux. [Source: J B Tribout, as quoted here https://www.grimper.com/news-un-probleme-taille]
I have never heard anyone directly claim that Biographie has had any manufactured holds added later.
I've also heard that Action Direct originally had an easier line breaking out to the right but the pockets got filled in to force the direct - would be curious to know if anyone knows more about that.
Are you sure you have not mixed that up with Wallstreet (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallstreet_(Kletterroute))?
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I've also heard that Action Direct originally had an easier line breaking out to the right but the pockets got filled in to force the direct - would be curious to know if anyone knows more about that.
Are you sure you have not mixed that up with Wallstreet (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallstreet_(Kletterroute))?
Nope, but it is just based off UKB gossip:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21278.msg386951.html#msg386951 (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21278.msg386951.html#msg386951)
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re: quarried routes; all quarries are just chips in the ground anyway :)
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Artificial Route at Widdop you awful elitists snobs!
Also Cow Udder and Doris (?) at Ilkley.
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Why the ? after Doris? It's definitely chipped, always wondered what and amazing extreme it would be without the chips.
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all the peg scarred routes that are now climbed without aid
Collectively and unintentionally chipped over the decades?
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Why the ? after Doris? It's definitely chipped, always wondered what and amazing extreme it would be without the chips.
Cos I forgot.
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Why the ? after Doris? It's definitely chipped, always wondered what and amazing extreme it would be without the chips.
Cos I forgot.
Don't ever let this happen again.
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A friend claimed he saw somebody banging metal objects on an ab rope into Scrittos Republic prior to its free ascent then feeling the holds.
Obviously it's an unsubstantiated story and we have no real idea exactly what the motives were but;
Assuming the objects were pegs, does hammering pegs into existing placements on an aid route presumably for the sole purpose of improving the holds for a free ascent count as chipping?
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Why the ? after Doris? It's definitely chipped, always wondered what and amazing extreme it would be without the chips.
Cos I forgot.
OK, I wasn't sure if the ? was if you weren't sure it was chipped, or weren't sure of the name. At ease soldier.
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UKB delivering the goods again :strongbench:
I've pulled them together in to a list (of course) https://climbing-history.org/list/21/examples-of-chipped-climbs though I've left out some of the more esoteric examples.
I'd be interested in any other examples outside the UK as the list feels pretty UK-centric at the mo.
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Think it's Angel's Share not Angle's Share. Also might be worth adding a sentence to the preamble to make it clear that the FAs weren't necessarily the chippers? Just to make it appear less of a name & shame list! ;D
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I’d be interested in the opinions of others, but I’m not convinced this is a great addition to your lists Remus. The context is really important when it comes to chipping and a list like this removes the context. Two Johnny Dawes routes on there are marked as examples of being chipped but the runnel is a historic thing and nothing to do with Dawes. Most on here will know the context of that, but not everyone. Similar with Linden - chipped by Ward-Drummond I think, nothing to do with the first ascensionist.
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Good point. I went back and forth on adding in the FAs: I like that it gives some extra info about the routes, but like you say there's some (incorrect) implication that the FA was also the person who chipped it. I've removed the FA col.
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Think it's Angel's Share not Angle's Share. Also might be worth adding a sentence to the preamble to make it clear that the FAs weren't necessarily the chippers? Just to make it appear less of a name & shame list! ;D
Hahaha, I was wondering why I was struggling to search for it on the site! Safer to remove all the names per Stabbsy's suggestion imo, lots of nuance to who's chipped what and given it carries some stigma it's better to leave the names off I think.
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Body Machine?
Out of interest which bit of body machine is chipped? I did it a few years ago and don't remember any blatantly chipped holds, though I wasn't looking so could easily have missed it.
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I’d be interested in the opinions of others, but I’m not convinced this is a great addition to your lists Remus. The context is really important when it comes to chipping and a list like this removes the context. Two Johnny Dawes routes on there are marked as examples of being chipped but the runnel is a historic thing and nothing to do with Dawes. Most on here will know the context of that, but not everyone. Similar with Linden - chipped by Ward-Drummond I think, nothing to do with the first ascensionist.
Linden was had sky hook placements chipped for the first ascent. Then a hold chipped for the first free ascent.
Both Linden and Scritto’s Republic chipping are discussed in Peak rock.
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I'd be interested in any other examples outside the UK as the list feels pretty UK-centric at the mo.
Everything in spain?
In the 90's climbing in El Chorro, we were gobsmacked to see the locals abbing and drilling holes for bolts, as well as just drilling pockets. We watched this guy just drilling holds and feeling them with his fingers, then drilling a little more, smoothing them off. It was a real slap in the face, having been brought up in a very strict ethical environment of peak grit/uk trad. I just couldn't believe what I was watching. Ho Hum. :shrug:
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I'd be interested in any other examples outside the UK as the list feels pretty UK-centric at the mo.
Infamously, FAer of Animal House in Bad Kloof redpointed a route, then admitted it was chipped, and chopped the bolts.
https://www.climbing.co.za/wiki/Jurassic_Park
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I'd be interested in any other examples outside the UK as the list feels pretty UK-centric at the mo.
Everything in spain?
In the 90's climbing in El Chorro, we were gobsmacked to see the locals abbing and drilling holes for bolts, as well as just drilling pockets. We watched this guy just drilling holds and feeling them with his fingers, then drilling a little more, smoothing them off. It was a real slap in the face, having been brought up in a very strict ethical environment of peak grit/uk trad. I just couldn't believe what I was watching. Ho Hum. :shrug:
When you have such a surfeit of quality rock its no surprise that there is no such taboo as exists in the UK I guess.
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Not sure which ones, but apparently some of the harder routes in Balmashanner Quarry in Angus were chipped. Just to add some more international flavour ;)
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I remember reading a profile of someone had one of the leading lights in the Gunks and they had drilled out a finger lock in order to do a last great problem.
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Seem to remember mention of it in Pollitt's Bio?
https://gripped.com/routes/punks-gym-worlds-first-5-14a/
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Hybrid Vigour on Creag an Dubh Loch is an entertaining example:
“I […] saw that the overlap looked impossible, I thumped the rock with my hammer in a fit of pique. A chunk of rock flew off leaving a flat, white hold. […] I don't think there was any conscious intent of making a hold. It seemed an odd thing to happen since granite is usually so solid. Maybe it's right I never finished the route, however."
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I think it is a hard list to make work. There are a lot of lines that has to be drawn, and it is extremely hard to be even handed. Almost all routes in Margalef, hard or easy, have lips of pockets smoothed out — otherwise there would be no climbing there as even my rhino-skin would get destroyed in a single attempt. Almost all routes in Rodellar have tons of sika on them, some for making holds, but mostly because otherwise belaying on the routes would be like re-enacting the western front in World War One. Some routes loose holds which get glued back after the first free ascent, some routes have almost been done in free when a hold breaks and get glued back—is the first example preserving history and the other example chipping? Many would think so. (If so, DNA should go on the list as a tufa broke just before the FA and got recreated/sikad back in place)
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Weren't a lot of the holds at Buoux improved / created by finding small holds or features just below the surface and hollowing them out?
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Otto's route had some pretty major work done to it (grand junction, Colorado).
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105758122/ottos-route
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I think it is a hard list to make work. There are a lot of lines that has to be drawn, and it is extremely hard to be even handed. Almost all routes in Margalef, hard or easy, have lips of pockets smoothed out — otherwise there would be no climbing there as even my rhino-skin would get destroyed in a single attempt. Almost all routes in Rodellar have tons of sika on them, some for making holds, but mostly because otherwise belaying on the routes would be like re-enacting the western front in World War One. Some routes loose holds which get glued back after the first free ascent, some routes have almost been done in free when a hold breaks and get glued back—is the first example preserving history and the other example chipping? Many would think so. (If so, DNA should go on the list as a tufa broke just before the FA and got recreated/sikad back in place)
I totally agree with that there's a wide spectrum of "chipping", from some light hold reinforcement that is essentially invisible to proper hatchet jobs.
With the list Im not trying to be definitive, and Im also trying to avoid drawing too many lines. I was hoping to make it literally "some examples of chipped climbs" and choosing famous examples seemed the best way of keeping it relatively un-controversial.
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Climbs relying on historical carved features, which were not manufactured for climbing purposes, should probably not be on the list. Does anyone know what the Angel's Share runnel was intended for? To support a small roof perhaps?
Routes which were vandalised after the first ascent might be better on a separate list, or at least have an asterix. The latter category would include Karma and a bunch of other respected Font classics, which were desecrated around 2001, by a supposedly gun-toting guy attempting to make the problems impossible.
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I heard the AS runnel was to divert rainwater away from pouring over the lip? Probably wrong. Likewise the Buckstone Dyno hold was not made by climbers.
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Out of interest which bit of body machine is chipped? I did it a few years ago and don't remember any blatantly chipped holds, though I wasn't looking so could easily have missed it.
I assumed the dish next to the drilled thread must have been chipped at some point.
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Can I nominate most of Pisa Wall at Pex Hill if you include bullet holes :)
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=24679.0
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I heard the AS runnel was to divert rainwater away from pouring over the lip?
Yeah it must have been done to make the little cave under the slab a more habitable shelter. The same technique has been used at the hermitage at Cratcliffe and inside what is now the Whillans hut at the Roaches.
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The crimp out left of the start of Nemesis at Chee Cornice looks chipped?
Drilled mono on Make it Funky (not necessarily drilled for climbing, but an old aid bolt hole?)
Not quite as famous but plenty of routes in Cheedale have random glued on holds, Stung, Kiss Me Arcy, or well chipped and shaped holds like Blockhead... all the same FA... and great routes :clap2:
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I'd be interested in any other examples outside the UK as the list feels pretty UK-centric at the mo.
There's an entire wall at the Kanzianiberg in Austria with routes consisting of huge - whole hand jug - drilled pockets plus bolt-ons. There are even two grades in the guidebook, one for just pockets and one for pockets + bolt-ons.
At least there's no pretence that the routes are anything like natural. It's just what the locals did for training on their crag before they had indoor walls.
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Not sure which ones, but apparently some of the harder routes in Balmashanner Quarry in Angus were chipped. Just to add some more international flavour ;)
Production Line at Cambusbarron, if we're delving into central belt esoterica...
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The spike foothold on the moves left at the top of Zoolook looked chipped to me.
‘The Angel’s Share’ is the quantity of whisky which evaporates from the cask when it’s stored for aging btw
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My mother-in-law's husband told me that in French, the angel's share refers to any alcohol lost when maturing a fermented beverage in a barel, so also for wine there is a part des anges. The term is supposedly from alchemy, where the volatile liquids where symbolised by angels (I found support for this statement in https://books.openedition.org/pup/2769?lang=fr paragraph 77)
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The spike foothold on the moves left at the top of Zoolook looked chipped to me.
‘The Angel’s Share’ is the quantity of whisky which evaporates from the cask when it’s stored for aging btw
Not a great film, but still pretty good, and worth a watch https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1924394/
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What's the deal with First round first minute by the way? From the ground it looks almost completely manufactured? It was also classified as such on Verhoeven's great/infamous post about possible 9b-projects in Spain that was up for a few hours before his sponsors took it down. Anyone's been up it?
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Not a great film, but still pretty good, and worth a watch https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1924394/
I thought it was pretty good, a sort of Whisky Galore for the Young Offenders generation.
Climbing connection: an old climbing friend sold his first flat to Loach's son way back.
As you were.
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To please Fiend, in these parts, namely Lancs quarries, Cheat is pretty infamous in Wilton... a blank wall with 3 or 4 perfectly chipped and placed crimps. Terrifying to set off up if you're at your limit, but the holds appear just when needed. That said I've seen a couple of heinous videos of lobs from the top, that are very close to disaster. Rumours of the villain of the crime still circulate.
Skip to ends...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG3OdyoZUGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIdJ64SdTPU
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Watching Shauna's new vid about Northumberland, made me think again, is that first right hand hold on the Nadser chipped? Feels and looks like it might be.
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To please Fiend, in these parts, namely Lancs quarries, Cheat is pretty infamous in Wilton... a blank wall with 3 or 4 perfectly chipped and placed crimps. Terrifying to set off up if you're at your limit, but the holds appear just when needed. That said I've seen a couple of heinous videos of lobs from the top, that are very close to disaster. Rumours of the villain of the crime still circulate.
Skip to ends...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG3OdyoZUGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIdJ64SdTPU
An early guidebook says something along the lines 'difficult if you're not the same height as the chipper(n.b. Hank is 5'10").
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Yorkshire grit is full of examples but the Derbyshire and Staffordshire equivalents much less so. Were the latter much less climbed - more vigorously wardened perhaps - during the era when chipping was more accepted?
I asked Dennis Gray about this a while ago (1993-ish I guess). He told me there was a prolific Yorkshire chipper in action when he started climbing. Apparently Dennis and other climbers used to steal equipment from the chipper to try and slow him down. He said some of the chip ladders the guy carved on Caley boulders went up established natural climbs. That conversation gave me the impression that the one guy was responsible for much of the Yorkshire Grit chipping and was hated for it by other climbers at the time..
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Yorkshire grit is full of examples but the Derbyshire and Staffordshire equivalents much less so. Were the latter much less climbed - more vigorously wardened perhaps - during the era when chipping was more accepted?
I asked Dennis Gray about this a while ago (1993-ish I guess). He told me there was a prolific Yorkshire chipper in action when he started climbing. Apparently Dennis and other climbers used to steal equipment from the chipper to try and slow him down. He said some of the chip ladders the guy carved on Caley boulders went up established natural climbs. That conversation gave me the impression that the one guy was responsible for much of the Yorkshire Grit chipping and was hated for it by other climbers at the time..
The chipped climbs around Caley make me sad. Pretty much all of them look like they could have made great natural climbs. Sucker's Wall in particular.
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That conversation gave me the impression that the one guy was responsible for much of the Yorkshire Grit chipping and was hated for it by other climbers at the time..
From Caley all the way out to Widdop? Or was the action of one guy making it seem OK for others? Thin end of the wedge chisel?
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I actually had a couple questions for people regarding this thread:
1) would it be possible to fix a lot of the chips using resin mixed with broken rock and dirt to fill the chips? I’m guessing the fact it hasn’t been done means it wouldn’t work?
2) does anyone know if the right hand flat crimp on bens roof at tor is chipped? Always wondered as it’s essentially the perfect flatty
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I actually had a couple questions for people regarding this thread:
1) would it be possible to fix a lot of the chips using resin mixed with broken rock and dirt to fill the chips? I’m guessing the fact it hasn’t been done means it wouldn’t work?
It would work but you'd never get it to look perfect. There's also the issue that in many instances, the chipped hold was previously just a worse hold and/or the problem might not go with the chip filled in. However, on balance, i'd happily vote for all chipped holds (on grit at least) to be filled in. I'd even fill some myself if the community were for it.
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Historically chipped routes are probably best left alone, you're essentially wiping the shared history of everyone that's done them. Flippant point, quarries are one massive chip, but you work with what you're given.
The classic Black Magic at Pex was fairly successfully repaired (some comments say too well). Years later it's hard to spot, done carefully with local sand was mixed in.
Similar thing happened at another sandstone venue, Harmers Wood where it looked like a router had been taken to the wall to create gear slots. Filled with glue/sand and texture matched to the surrounding rock. Can't fine an 'after' pic right now.
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10158780249097065&set=pcb.1023328484783756
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Yeah I think with careful work and consideration a good repair job is definitely possible. There’s so much stuff in the peak Bonjoy has fixed and you couldn’t even tell.
I repaired a foot this year that broke off and used sand and some grit from below the block and came out good as new!