UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Fiend on August 13, 2020, 06:45:38 pm
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Yes there is probably a thread on this, no I am not in the mood to search.
Got a tweak inside my knee after a deep drop-knee. Somehow had enough instinct to drop off as soon as there was a slight twinge, but I've done something to it. Never had a knee injury before - never done a deep drop knee before. Got pain and slight impedement when walking normally. Bad getting in and out of car and changing direction. Fine at rest and weirdly fine walking up steps.
Obviously I'm going to try to be sensible, be guided by pain, etc etc. Any other ideas / advice (gentle ones) welcome tho.
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Medial collateral ligament sprain? Try not to make it hurt too much and don't do anymore egyptians on that side till it's better?
That would be my uninformed reckon, but maybe you should wait till someone that knows what they're talking about replies.
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As a complete non expert, but someone who has had a fair few knee injuries, possible cartilage tear? They can be quite pain free, but feel weird. Can restrict movement, but be absolutely fine for lots of things. Does it feel like it needs to click?
Probably worth an expert opinion. Mine ultimately needed surgery, but I climbed on it (without knee drops) right up until the surgery, so not as bleak as you might think.
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Cheers guys.
Ru, a quick google and that makes sense. Also TobyD said might be a meniscus tear (which also seems to fit). No pop nor really sharp pain at the time (adrenaline?) but an abrupt mild pain when twisting into the deepest part of the drop knee (waaaay too deep, I was fighting bad conditions).
Ged, doesn't sound like that, I've got pain but no other weird feelings.
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Re-reading your post you said the pain was inside the knee - I'd initially read it as "on the inside of the knee" - meaning the outside of the knee but on the inside of your body, i.e. where the medial collateral ligament is. If you mean inside as in actually inside the knee, then it's probably not that and a meniscal tear is more likely.
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Errrrr. I can't edit it now, but your first understanding was correct - it's on the inside of my knee referencing the body overall, i.e. the pain is on the right side of my left knee
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Never had a knee injury before
They're very fashionable at the moment.
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Sounds like MCL,minor strains usually heal well with moderation and the usual treatments.
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Never had a knee injury before
They're very fashionable at the moment.
So hot right now.
MCL tweak i reckon too, done it a few times, climbing an running, take it easy and walk on your hands for a week.
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Never had a knee injury before
They're very fashionable at the moment.
Fashionable and Fiend that’s something you don’t often see in the same sentence.
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(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67499395_10157824021393623_4392956579721248768_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=wXktoyctGekAX-JDz68&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=96f84712b19492053d83ec35d8ec5133&oe=5F5ADFAA)
no idea what you're talking about.
Thanks. Yes Serpico I'm blaming you for it being contagious.
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Stand next to a chair, put your left foot on it and then push your right thumb up into the back of the knee. Pain there *may* be indicative of damage to cartilage.
My guess is MCL based on a sample size of 1 with that injury (me). However, a good physio is what you really need. Your GP surgery may have a physio who will see you for free. Better still, I’ve seen John Ostrovskis in person and via Zoom a fair bit recently. I recommend that.
https://www.919clinic.co.uk/
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Matt, I’ve done something similar a couple of times, most recently whilst trying an ill-advised dropped knee on Rubicon. I recovered in 3-4 weeks.
Warning signs of something that could be significant would be the knee swelling up, locking or giving way, or a feeling of something ‘popping’ or going in your knee when you first injured it which would suggest seeing someone. You’ve not mentioned any of those so we’ll go with a tweak!
Could be your medial collateral ligament or coronary ligament/outer portion of meniscus. Hard to make a precise diagnosis and in any case it probably doesn’t really matter. Obviously avoid deep dropped knees, thrashing through knee-high heather, and other hurty stuff for now. You could be maintaining your quads. strength and knee proprioception by doing some single-leg squats (not deep, 4-6 reps. initially) as you let nature take its course.
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Yes Serpico I'm blaming you for it being contagious.
No need to swear at him.
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Warning signs of something that could be significant would be the knee swelling up, locking or giving way, or a feeling of something ‘popping’ or going in your knee when you first injured it which would suggest seeing someone. You’ve not mentioned any of those so we’ll go with a tweak!
Thanks duncan. For those warning signs it's no, no, no and no. (Also: mrJR, no pain in the test you described). So hopefully it is *relatively* minor. There's no swelling this morning (I have taken a few anti-inflammatories, and started icing it), it was tender and inhibitive walking but eased off to almost normal after 10 minutes. Up and down stairs still a bit tender. Any inward movement is sore, any outward movement is absolutely fine. No pain at rest.
I'm still waiting to hear back from a physio about an appointment as I think that's generally useful. In the meantime I'm going to keep mobile / gently active and avoid anything that produces more than "tenderness" (I've just had some advice from a friend who is a sports masseur AND has been recovering from a complete ACL rupture and partial MCL rupture this year).
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If it was me, and i had one handy, I'd wear an elasticated knee support for a bit too, as a precautionary measure. I have a couple of reasonable quality Decathlon ones i use when knees are feeling a bit unhappy.
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https://youtu.be/bqV2ZEO7UE0
I tested negative on these, still hurts on rockovers and heel hooks though.
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If the self test involves doing Charleston dance moves, I'd rather suffer.
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If it was me, and i had one handy, I'd wear an elasticated knee support for a bit too, as a precautionary measure. I have a couple of reasonable quality Decathlon ones i use when knees are feeling a bit unhappy.
Although they may be reassuring, they will do nothing to support a knee. They may be of some benefit in reminding you to go easy on it, and keep your knee warmer!
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If it was me, and i had one handy, I'd wear an elasticated knee support for a bit too, as a precautionary measure. I have a couple of reasonable quality Decathlon ones i use when knees are feeling a bit unhappy.
Although they may be reassuring, they will do nothing to support a knee. They may be of some benefit in reminding you to go easy on it, and keep your knee warmer!
Yes I concur and this is why I've been wearing one.
I saw a local physio today who agreed with the UKB overall diagnosis, approved of the lack of swelling and the general care I've taken with it. He also thinks it's on the minor end of the spectrum, and gave me some nicely simple strengthening / stabilising exercises to do quite soon (strengthening the leg muscles to assist the MCL - additional stability that I might well have been lacking as I haven't been to the gym for a dire 5 months), as long as I either don't feel any pain with them, or only feel mild discomfort that alleviates as I do the exercise (as currently happens with walking normally).
Other caveats include avoiding slippery ground (rough but stable ground seems okay, I walked on some at the weekend with great care and no pain), don't rely on any external supports, be careful when changing direction, and "6-8 weeks before doing any drop knee movements" which TBH is 1. better than I hoped and 2. very far from my intentions anyway.
I've just done a bit of bottom level traversing on The Depot circuit board which apart from having fuck all stamina went absolutely fine (having a regular array of simple footholds to "frontpoint" on helped), I was careful to avoid any twisting (climb open, like Malc), and the only mild tenderness I got was walking across the mats.
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4 week update....still injured. I saw the physio again recently, he approved of my general mobility and gym work, and encouraged me to incorporate gentle MCL-stressing movements, light and often. State of play is as follows:
Improvements:
No pain walking normally.
No pain walking up and down stairs at a normal brisk pace.
No pain doing any "normal knee line of movement" gym exercises including leg raises, leg curls, leg presses (machine only) and deadlifts up to 120kg.
No pain doing front-pointing / inside edging on stamina boards
Coped with an "accidental" 9 mile moor walk okay (with care)
Issues:
Attempted running a fortnight ago, managed to take one step before a sharp pain in the knee stopped me, knee was sorer than usual for two days.
Still tweaky with any moving inwards motion that stresses the MCL.
Sore when I sit with knee bent for a while when stretch it.
Sore if I bend the leg as tight as possible
Sore in the morning (I think I do all sorts of weird manoeurves in the night.
Can't do anything springy or bouncy (shock unweighting)
A bit tweaky walking downhill unless I'm careful
Sore lower back and stiff glutes from more gym and less climbing than usual
What I'm doing:
Gym 3-ish times a week, with at least 30 mins of mixed leg work doing the exercises listed above, generally going for volume and control rather than maxxing out.
Wobble board a few times a week
Inward knee motion with a slight bent knee using a theraband, 2 x 15 sets every other day, will increase as I get used to it. I do this gently to the point of very mild discomfort (not pain).
Stretching legs (glutes hamstrings groin and occasionally quads) daily.
Hill walks or moorland walks occasionally
Depot stamina board once a week
At the moment it's kinda sore-ish at rest but not tweaky in any particular motion. Did have a heavier than gym session yesterday but there was no pain / aggravation at the time.
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Sounds like we're having completely identical experiences - I've been following this thread since I did mine (~1st Aug).
Slightly different mechanism - mine was a really bunched sit down start, foot near navel, hands on undercut/sidepulls. guess putting a huge force through the knee as you start to push down. It went clunk/twang/kerpow all at once.
Area sounds exactly the same as yours. inside side of the knee. Physio has wavered between meniscus, hamstring insertion and now calf insertion.
Ruled out meniscus and MCL. Think it might be both hamstring and calf insertions/tendon tears, but who knows.
Physio ruled out MRI as a bit pointless, unless surgery is required, as the physio treatments would all be the same, regardless of the exact site of the injury.
I was starting to heal after about 3 weeks, but tore it again, quite badly crossing the road. Car was approaching faster than expected and I instinctively broke into a little jog and it went ping again.
That was about 3 weeks ago so about at the same place now. Went out climbing yesterday for the first time and felt terrified of tearing it again. Lead some HS's and a VS. So depressing (but a nice day out) .
Scared of putting any force through my knee , let alone rocking out some heinous left foot rockover anytime soon.
Ho Hum, Off to physio at 4 to see how we're doing.
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Sorry to hear that Sam, that's shit.
Springing out of the way crossing roads if something I'm wary of, aye.
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Injuries are horrible, commiserations both. My knee was difficult in February. Didn't exactly go twang but got inflamed enough to get stuck upstairs one evening, just too painful to move. And 7pm is a bit early to call it a day...
Jon O recommended some exercises - and when it improved, running uphill (short strides going up). Once a week I run up a short hill, walk down, run up, walk down etc It feels loads stronger now. It might help once you are over the worst?
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So after a few short months ( :shit: ), my knee healed up pretty well. It can cope with anything fine although I haven't tested in road-running nor falling off highballs (normal bouldering no problem). The only activity that has produced any feeling in the last month is some sprint cycling, and that was only very slight tenderness that soon eased.
HOWEVER. I still get mild pain overnight with it, rolling over in bed and wriggling around as usual. This is irrespective of the previous day's exercise and as soon as I get up in the morning it's fine. I'm not sure if it's being in one position and then suddenly moving or what that's causing it. Anyone else get this sort of thing and any idea what to do about it (apart from sleeping in a straight jacket and not listening to speedcore before bed)??
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HOWEVER. I still get mild pain overnight with it, rolling over in bed and wriggling around as usual. This is irrespective of the previous day's exercise and as soon as I get up in the morning it's fine. I'm not sure if it's being in one position and then suddenly moving or what that's causing it. Anyone else get this sort of thing and any idea what to do about it (apart from sleeping in a straight jacket and not listening to speedcore before bed)??
It might be the joint twisting a little and aggravating what ever it was that you had slightly damaged, or it could be the fact that part of the reason that almost anything hurts more at night is that you are concentrating on it more, as there are few other distractions compared to the daytime. It may well also be both.
I'd judge that if it isn't waking you up with a jolt of pain, then it probably isn't much to worry about and that it will get better slowly.
Alternatively, I'm sure there are a great number of special interest websites that will sell you a straight jacket to sleep in. They might throw in a complimentary set of handcuffs into the bargain.
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Cheers Toby. I'm definitely not worrying about it given the general functionality is fine. I wonder if a small part of it is that the surrounding muscles are relaxed and so not giving additional support, compared to general usage....
Just signing up for RestraintsRUs.org the now....