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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by stone on Today at 11:19:17 am »
I don't think this "polite communication is all it needs" notion is true.
...and what's your suggested alternative for this 'closed project' situation? A facet of climbing which you openly admit you have no involvement in on either side - either as developer or as climber wanting to do closed projects.
My suggested alternative is that next time there is a situation like the devils gorge one, more people do as you did and remonstrate with the developer rather than denouncing would-be-route-stealers. Perhaps if that had been the case, it might have been realised by him that everyone was massively appreciative of all his development work but would be more stoked for him sending it as the 200th ascent rather than as the 1st.
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by stone on Today at 11:12:29 am »
To me it's good to have this out in the open and talked about.

Discussions such as this will help avoid anyone blundering into developing a project with the intention of keeping it closed for many years as a futuristic training goal.

I also think discussions such as this are good for making people aware of how much gratitude we owe to developers. And I do think naming and guide book entries etc should favour developers much more. For anything but cutting edge routes, the developer and not the first ascentionist gets credit in my eyes anyway.
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by spidermonkey09 on Today at 11:10:49 am »
So, as a community, we indulge a very small minority of developers with decades-old closed projects by way of "payment" to developers at large, most of whom don't close projects for unreasonably long periods anyway.

Indeed. I don't see a problem with this.
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by petejh on Today at 11:04:17 am »
I don't think this "polite communication is all it needs" notion is true.

...and what's your suggested alternative for this 'closed project' situation? A facet of climbing which you openly admit you have no involvement in on either side - either as developer or as climber wanting to do closed projects.
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abroad / Re: font - showers
« Last post by James Malloch on Today at 11:01:13 am »
Swim in the river next to Les Grez camping?

Camping there is really cheap too. Or they might let you nip in for a shower. Nice coffee truck there too which you could maybe sneak a shower after visiting?
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by spidermonkey09 on Today at 10:55:31 am »
What are the closed projects that have riled people up in the past few years, the apparent absence of which this year which prompted you to start the thread? Are they all Peak based ?

I'm arguing the idea it needs a precedent it all is flawed. There is no one size fits all answer. I don't think putting arbitrary time limits on things works for all the reasons that Barrows and Pete have already pointed out. Some years the cornice/north buttress doesn't dry at all.

There's little point continually referencing the case from devil's gorge when it's an outlier. The vast majority of projects get cleared up either by the original bolter or by someone keen who asks if they can get involved; if they're any good that is. If they're actually shit, and that's why they never got finished, then it's no loss. If anything, the fact you're saying there is no aggro over projects currently is indicative if the current, informal system working just fine, no?
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by andy moles on Today at 10:51:05 am »

I'm quite a fan of North Wales Bouldering bantz where the intro to bouldering behaviour says "No Patioing" and the very first problem in the book has a very obvious patio in the topo picture  :2thumbsup:


And then there's the retro-bolting, drilled pegs, glued pegs and conventional hammered pegs, so route climbers can have the bantz too. North Wales leading the way :whistle:
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by stone on Today at 10:49:54 am »
Stone, you appear to be stirring somewhat. That was an acknowledged edge case where it's widely accepted that it dragged on too long. It wasn't on to allow it to drag on that long. It also isn't on to just roll in and climb projects without asking permission. This isn't complicated and doesn't need "rules" or "kudos". It just needs people to have some manners and ask, to communicate like normal humans instead of incels and more often than not people will be fine with it.
I was ignorant about it being widely accepted that it had dragged on for too long in that case. I'm not sure the precedent from that case apparently being considered too long has really filtered through as widely as you're saying (my ignorance being an example).

You're saying this doesn't need rules. But at some point that case evidently tipped over from everyone being on the side of the developer keeping the project closed to it being deemed unreasonable.

I don't think this "polite communication is all it needs" notion is true. Lack of communication is clearly bad. But there are cases where there is communication and what is communicated is that the developer insists on perpetual closure.
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by petejh on Today at 10:43:59 am »
I'm quite a fan of North Wales Bouldering bantz where the intro to bouldering behaviour says "No Patioing" and the very first problem in the book has a very obvious patio in the topo picture  :2thumbsup:

Still, if you're not moving hundreds of tonnes, are you even developing??  :-\

 :lol:

Bro do you even lift?

The climbing scene is full hypocritical bullshit like this.

The routes/boulders we all climb on rely for their existence on some fundamental realities, which many climbers going about their day enjoying their pastime are completely oblivious to: #1 rule is don't get caught doing something someone 'official' might object to. The #2 rule is don't ask. #3 is don't tell.

Then threads like this appear and the metaphorical rock is lifted to partly reveal the skeletons underneath. And people (Stone) suggest seemingly completely reasonable and rational-sounding black&white rules, but which don't work in a messy reality of unique context and human emotions.

Etiquette and manners is all it takes to make the imperfect system work, as many have already said.
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Ross Barker on Today at 10:06:40 am »
I'm quite a fan of North Wales Bouldering bantz where the intro to bouldering behaviour says "No Patioing" and the very first problem in the book has a very obvious patio in the topo picture  :2thumbsup:

I always assumed that was there to stop the average layman from trying to build patios under every boulder they arrive at, particularly to stop them from tearing down an ancient drystone wall for it!

An experienced developer should hopefully understand when it is or isn't appropriate to be modifying a landing, and how it should be done.
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