UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Ti_pin_man on May 26, 2015, 01:36:25 pm
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So, I'm heading for a strength training block in the next few weeks and my local gym bunny suggested I use creatine during weights then come back off it towards the end of this training block. 6-8 weeks. I'm not too worried about weight gain having lost a stone and a half since xmas so I dont mind a kilo or two. I'm also not planning to preload as had been advised way back in time. Just uping my bodys creatine in this time while weight training to increase my feeble arm / forearm strength - my forte seems to be technical climbs and balance rather than cave ugh strength. So thought this was worth a look.
I've been looking on here and the net and see that both Gresh and Wolfy see some improvement using small quantities during training phases of strength but despite my research I've not found much info on more detailed studies, or conclusions, for climbers specifically. Do any of your guys know any links to stuidies of climbers recently? hopefully not funded by the maxi muscle companies. ;)
OR maybe even any climbers blogs trying it?
As an experiment I might keep a diary and record how it sort of progresses if anybody is interested.
Come on guys, slag this idea off and do what the internet forums always do. :jab:
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ive tried it in the past and dont rate the stuff at all.any weight you put on is water inside the muscles which goes as soon as you stop.
it might be not what you want to hear but i wouldnt spend any money on the stuff
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Think there was a recent article in climber by Gaz Parry - just skimmed it, can't remember who he was interviewing ...Eric Horst it might have been. I think he mentioned Shauna Coxey was a big advocate but might have that wrong...
Can imagine it would be pretty useful for power endurance stuff but don't you get increased water retention?
I remember trying a protein/creatine mix briefly a few years ago and was amazed at the instantaneous difference it made...but just not amazed enough to pay the price to keep using it...
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(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/douglasmanzelmann/Beef-Cakes/master/assets/pictures/cartman_beefcake.jpg)
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the above is exactly why I poked the bees nest. Current thinking is that low quantities of creatine each day during strength training seem currently supported. The overload use early on is where water retention and substantial weight gain came from. Not a protocol proposed. That was early on in creatine research. C'mon boys keep up. :jab:
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Anecdotally I'd say it's great: used it twice for 8 odd week cycles whilst doing a larger volume of climbing and rings than I would otherwise. Definitely meant I climbed like crap whilst on it due to the added weight but as soon as you stop it's like taking a weight belt off.
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When I did research for this for a project a few years ago. most of the information I found was heavily skeptical of the benefit of creatine for anything other than bulking up quickly or body building when you are exercising excessively.
Most articles I read suggested a change in diet to have a higher protein content is a much better choice and more protein is absorbed through general nutrition than from the drinks/shakes. However this is a few years ago now technology has moved on and most of the articles were from a dietitian point of view so could be biased
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As an experiment I might keep a diary and record how it sort of progresses if anybody is interested.
Come on guys, slag this idea off and do what the internet forums always do. :jab:
Won't find me slagging it off, I use it regularly during phases of strength and power training. My routine is to start taking creatine at 5g per day 14 days prior to start of strength phase, and continue at 5g per day until the end of the power phase. No pre-load, so minimal weight gain from water-retention (still a little). I stop taking at the end of the strength phase. Half-life is long in comparison to something like Beta-Alanine (useful for PE) so your body retains good levels through a peak phase.
A bit oif a diet prior to the peak and you gain all the benefit of training heavy and climbing light. I'm light as fuck but my diet's good..
Good site for most supplements, which collates lots of studies to one place:
http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/
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I've used it in the past and coul not notice any difference except the bloating effect, which was pretty ugly.
It could be beneficial for power endurance, but I don't know.
I wouldn't waste money on it.
If you correctly tailor your weights training on power, you'll not bulk up much at all, if weight is an important issue for you. I would take at least 6 weeks to progressively build your sessions from, let's say, 3x8 (2 weeks), to 4x8 (2 weeks), to 4x6 (2 weeks) and then start the power phase with 4x4 or even less reps.
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It could be beneficial for power endurance, but I don't know.
There's no need to be in the dark, creatine is one of the few supplements (Beta Alanine being another) for which there exists substantial and robust research evidence. Take it or leave it, but there's no requirement to guess. (excuse my sketchy tables)
(from examine.com (http://examine.com/))
Level of Evidence
A: Robust research conducted with repeated double blind clinical trials.
B: Multiple studies where at least two are double-blind and placebo controlled.
C: Single double blind study or multiple cohort studies.
D: Uncontrolled or observational studies only.
Level of
Evidence Effect Magnitude of Effect Size Scientific Consensus
A Muscle Creatine Content Strong 80%
See all 18 studies
Creatine supplementation is the reference compound for increasing muscular creatine levels; there is variability in this increase, however, with some nonresponders.
A Power Output Strong 100%
See all 65 studies
Creatine is the reference compound for power improvement, with numbers from one meta-analysis to assess potency being "Able to increase a 12% improvement in strength to 20% and able to increase a 12% increase in power to 26% following a training regiment using creatine monohydrate".
There does appear to be a high degree of variability, which is correlated with the amount of creatine reaching muscle tissue. There does not appear to be much difference between trained and untrained persons.
An acute study noted an increase in peak torque by 33.4% and reduction in the time to reach peak torque by 54.7%; perhaps useful as comparator.
A Weight Strong 100%
See all 28 studies
Appears to have a large effect on increasing overall weight due to water retention in persons who respond to creatine supplementation. Degree of increase is variable.
A Creatinine Notable 40%
See all 12 studies
Creatine supplementation usually increases serum creatinine levels during the loading phase (usually not maintenance) since creatinine is the breakdown product of creatine;
this is not indicative of kidney damage.
A Hydration Notable 100%
See all 9 studies
Appears to be quite notable due to the increase in water weight in skeletal muscle tissue following creatine supplementation.
A Anaerobic Running Capacity Minor 66%
See all 19 studies
Appears to increase anaerobic cardiovascular capacity, not to a remarkable degree however.
A Lean Mass Minor 100%
See all 19 studies
Does appear to have inherent lean mass building properties, but a large amount of research is confounded with water weight gains (difficult to assess potency).
A Swimming Performance 64%
See all 17 studies
On the whole, there is no reliable improvement in swimming performance with creatine supplementation. In the instances where it could be beneficial, a loading period (no
maintenance) is used prior to short sprint tests (50-100m for 1-3 sprints) in order to reduce time by around 2%, or prolonged swimming (400m) may have benefits in the last stretch only.
Goes on to the 'B's .....
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How come it isn't classed as a performance enhancing drug?.
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+1
Seems to me to be on the fine line between supplementing and doping
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Slightly off-topic but relating to Pete's post: I use beta alanine before/during trips. When I investigated it a year or so ago, my conclusion was that whilst it seemed like consensus was that it increases carnosine, and that carnosine is a lactic buffer, it was much less clear cut as to whether it actually lead to better performance, despite what that site implies. The studies where it did well, however, typically seemed to be ones which involved an all out effort after some sort of initial work to get you tired, which is pretty relevant to climbing.
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Yep that's what I took away from examine ref Beta Alanine. The only significant performance increase is in muscle endurance tests to all-out failure, lasting 60 - 240 seconds. Very relevent to climbing. I took it in combination with high nitrate beetroot juice a couple years ago on the lead up to a trip to Ansteys/SW and couldn't fall off anything. Just kept recovering on holds when pumped, very annoying.
(examine (http://examine.com))
A Muscular Endurance Minor 100%
See all 8 studies
The data from the lone meta-analysis suggesting a 2.5% increase in muscular endurance during exercises between 60-240s (usually measured by time to exhaustion) seems to
be a good summation. The benefit is present, but is pretty small in magnitude.
Cue lots of people with tingly faces at the crag.
(I think a lot of stuff like this goes on which people keep to themselves, partly out of wanting an edge so they can better burn off their mates).
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Does the beetroot juice work without the beta-alanine or do you use them in combination?
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I took it in combination with high nitrate beetroot juice a couple years ago on the lead up to a trip to Ansteys/SW and couldn't fall off anything. Just kept recovering on holds when pumped, very annoying.
:lol:
(I think a lot of stuff like this goes on which people keep to themselves, partly out of wanting an edge so they can better burn off their mates).
I'm too honest. From now on people can expect shit beta, and for me to say 'na, I don't really train' when asked about anything.
Never tried beetroot juice, anyone else use it? Do you still use it Pete?
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'Nah I don't take anything...
(It's the bomb for enduro)
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I can't believe I listened to all those training beta podcasts and even bought that Anderson bros book when all I needed was a trip to Tesco's express.
I bet Ramonet drinks it by the gallon.
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I took it in combination with high nitrate beetroot juice a couple years ago on the lead up to a trip to Ansteys/SW and couldn't fall off anything. Just kept recovering on holds when pumped, very annoying.
:lol:
(I think a lot of stuff like this goes on which people keep to themselves, partly out of wanting an edge so they can better burn off their mates).
I'm too honest. From now on people can expect shit beta, and for me to say 'na, I don't really train' when asked about anything.
Never tried beetroot juice, anyone else use it? Do you still use it Pete?
BJ used to, and he had the worst endurance any man has ever had. You can't afford it either.
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3 years ago there was a supplement called jack3d,that had beta alanine in it,plus some other things.it ended up getting banned. you certainly knew you had taken it.like most supplements that work,it was banned. more because them high up thought it was bad for you rather than because it had steroid like results.
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Is that the one that had an effect like speed.
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supposedly, you were meant to have 1 scoop,but 2 worked better. there is a new version of it but doubt its much good
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I used to use creatine post-working when I used to weight train (before I started climbing) and it was the only supplement that I actually noticed a difference if I skipped it for whatever reason. Decreased DOMS massively.
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3 years ago there was a supplement called jack3d,that had beta alanine in it,plus some other things.it ended up getting banned. you certainly knew you had taken it.like most supplements that work,it was banned. more because them high up thought it was bad for you rather than because it had steroid like results.
Infamous stuff to boxing fans - a fair few high profile names (Brandon Rios, Enzo Maccarinelli, Dillian White) have served bans, all claiming that as they bought Jack3 at a sport shop, they assumed it was permitted. Wasn't the active ingredient, Methylhexanamine, blamed for a runner in the London marathon collapsing and dying?
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MY DIARY: so I started adding the 'poison' this week.
TAKING IT: only a scoop a day mixed with 500ml of water in a water bottle. First thing in the morning when I get into the office after the ride and after a finger set. I'm a good boy and drink 1.5 / 2 litres of water most days.
WEIGHT: 74KG
HEIGHT: 6 foot
GRADE PEAK: Several Font 7a's last year
AIM: More of the same this year and on steeper stuff not just techie climbs
TRAINING: I'm currently doing fingerboard sets 3 times a week and a couple of sets of 4x4's around looking after my daughters. I also cycle 20 miles home from work.
Weirdly my ride home knocked 3 - 4 mins off my record time. Whilst pleased with the timing I dont attribute it to the Creatine, just some good luck with the traffic lights and maybe a little placebo. What I did notice after the ride is my legs felt tight, not cramps just tight, I could feel them. I drank more and thought nothing of it. A couple of days later I now attribute this to the creatine, this tightness, as I have gotten the same feeling after my finger sets in my arms, especially the lower arms and fingers. Its not uncomfortable. Just odd.
WATER RETENTION: As for water retention, at this time I clearly haven't seen my weight change but I have notice going to the loo is a little more of a push ;D
SUMMARY: Have I seen any difference, other than the one off cycling day no, and I wasn't expecting to. Bike rides are roughly the same and finger sets feel the same. my 2 fingers sets did seem easier but again maybe in my brain. I can feel my muscles more consciously but other than that, nada after a couple of days use. BUT I didnt expect to. I have 8 weeks of strength training ahead and the real proof will be when I stop that set, stop taking them and return to 'normal' climbing.
Weekly reports to follow.
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How many grams of creatine is in 'a scoop'?
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WEIGHT: 74KG
HEIGHT: 6 foot
GRADE PEAK: Several Font 7a's last year
AIM: More of the same this year and on steeper stuff not just techie climbs
TRAINING: I'm currently doing fingerboard sets 3 times a week and a couple of sets of 4x4's around looking after my daughters. I also cycle 20 miles home from work.
Weirdly my ride home knocked 3 - 4 mins off my record time. Whilst pleased with the timing I dont attribute it to the Creatine, just some good luck with the traffic lights and maybe a little placebo. What I did notice after the ride is my legs felt tight, not cramps just tight, I could feel them. I drank more and thought nothing of it. A couple of days later I now attribute this to the creatine, this tightness, as I have gotten the same feeling after my finger sets in my arms, especially the lower arms and fingers. Its not uncomfortable. Just odd.
WATER RETENTION: As for water retention, at this time I clearly haven't seen my weight change but I have notice going to the loo is a little more of a push ;D
Without sounding like a knob, do you really think it is necessary to take supplements to help improve? Also, it seems odd doing fingerboarding three times a week to help improve your climbing on steep ground?
Don't get me wrong, I know very little about 'training' and supplements, but to me this seems absolutely insane to take supplements like creatine, with the aim of 'more of the same but on steeper ground'. I think it also especially concerning, that it is clear from this thread, people don't really understand the outcomes/side effects fully.
I get the feeling, people think by taking supplements, they are going to get quick gains without the hard work. Maybe I am missing out, but to be honest, I would rather not have muscles full of water!
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My purely anecdotal experience is that a friend of a friend tried dosing with creatine.
He lost his neck. It simply disappeared.
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WEIGHT: 74KG
HEIGHT: 6 foot
GRADE PEAK: Several Font 7a's last year
AIM: More of the same this year and on steeper stuff not just techie climbs
TRAINING: I'm currently doing fingerboard sets 3 times a week and a couple of sets of 4x4's around looking after my daughters. I also cycle 20 miles home from work.
Weirdly my ride home knocked 3 - 4 mins off my record time. Whilst pleased with the timing I dont attribute it to the Creatine, just some good luck with the traffic lights and maybe a little placebo. What I did notice after the ride is my legs felt tight, not cramps just tight, I could feel them. I drank more and thought nothing of it. A couple of days later I now attribute this to the creatine, this tightness, as I have gotten the same feeling after my finger sets in my arms, especially the lower arms and fingers. Its not uncomfortable. Just odd.
WATER RETENTION: As for water retention, at this time I clearly haven't seen my weight change but I have notice going to the loo is a little more of a push ;D
Without sounding like a knob, do you really think it is necessary to take supplements to help improve? Also, it seems odd doing fingerboarding three times a week to help improve your climbing on steep ground?
Don't get me wrong, I know very little about 'training' and supplements, but to me this seems absolutely insane to take supplements like creatine, with the aim of 'more of the same but on steeper ground'. I think it also especially concerning, that it is clear from this thread, people don't really understand the outcomes/side effects fully.
I get the feeling, people think by taking supplements, they are going to get quick gains without the hard work. Maybe I am missing out, but to be honest, I would rather not have muscles full of water!
Not entirely, I dont have any great expectations, I'm experimenting, seeing what it does for a short period as I transition from focus on my finger strength and moving to steep stuff. I only have one week left of the fingerboard set and then go into a 6-8 week block of strength training. Trust me, I'll be doing plenty of hard work and am just interested to see if it helps or not. I dont have high expectations but try this to see what happens. Its not going to kill me, its not illegal, its a subjective test, I dont see it as a magic pill, I do it out of an interest and because the online information doesnt prove one way or another if taking it will help. So I'll see what happens.
5 grams in the official scoop. I'm shy of a full scoop so about 4.
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I prescribe you a book-long course of '9 out of 10 climbers'
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I prescribe you a book-long course of '9 out of 10 climbers'
Already got that one in my library, but thank you for the kind offer.
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Without sounding like a knob, do you really think it is necessary to take supplements to help improve? Also, it seems odd doing fingerboarding three times a week to help improve your climbing on steep ground?
Don't get me wrong, I know very little about 'training' and supplements, but to me this seems absolutely insane to take supplements like creatine, with the aim of 'more of the same but on steeper ground'. I think it also especially concerning, that it is clear from this thread, people don't really understand the outcomes/side effects fully.
I get the feeling, people think by taking supplements, they are going to get quick gains without the hard work. Maybe I am missing out, but to be honest, I would rather not have muscles full of water!
I can't speak for anybody else nor make assumptions about their inner beliefs. But I certainly don't take creatine, beta-alanine, beetroot juice, caffeine or rapidly-absorbed glucose between attempts - 5 actions I take that might be considered 'supplementing' - in the hope that this will lead to quick gains without hard work. I put in more than enough of the hard work, no question about that. And I believe in gathering as much info as I can about something and then making an informed choice.
There's a really complex subject to be explored about how much effort, meaning etc. you allocate to an arbitrary activity like climbing.
Long-term side effects, absolutely. Creatine, beta-al, caffeine etc. may turn out to be as or more harmful than sugar when taken over a lifetime. Have you examined your diet lately and questioned the long-term side-effects of your lifestyle choices? Not a criticism, just putting it in context.
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processed food will be the death of our generation :punk:
I'm teasing with a lot of what I say. I'm an average joe who wants to try this for a brief few weeks of strength training and see if it helps me get some steeper 7a ticks. I experiment with myself simply because there is so little evidence of the benefits, or otherwise, to climbers using Creatine. I actually wouldnt take any supplement deemed illegal. Creatine is used in a lot of anaerobic sports by many people. Its not illegal even for competitors. I'm also not about to chase Ondra up his Dawn Wall one day effort. An average joe just interested in things. :beer2:
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A fair few good climbers I know take creatine and don't want people to know, they all climb 8B, at least.
This is not to say taking it will make you climb 8B but they do and they do. Oh and that's just the Brits.
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To poke the nest a little bit more..
Starting with the assumption that the evidence is accurate that shows creatine, beta alanine and high-nitrate vegetable juice produce marginal gains in different performance parameters relevant to climbing, the question could be turned around to ask: what reasons are there for choosing not to use one or more of these ergogenic aids? - given that better shoes, lighter equipment, better technology for discovering beta, better training programs and facilities, vast sums spent on accommodation and flights to sunny training areas with softer grades and dieting to lose weight are all well-accepted methods to aid improvement at climbing?
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A fair few good climbers I know take creatine and don't want people to know, they all climb 8B, at least.
This is not to say taking it will make you climb 8B but they do and they do. Oh and that's just the Brits.
This is the interesting bit - there's obviously some reluctance to admit to it, why is that? It feels like cheating?
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You'll be using knee pads next Pete
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I've always said I'll use them on routes where they give a benefit, whether or not the route was originally done without. That said, I'd be gutted if someone tamed a boulder-problem/route monstrosity such as Hubble by use of a knee-pad. Boulder problems that were originally done without - I think my personal ethic is to not use a pad but to use any chemical compound known or as yet unknown to science
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Pete why don't you take your point further: there are plenty of performance enhancing substances readily available and not strictly illegal, but that are banned under competitions rules. As climbing on rocks falls outside of these rules, why not use these substances too?
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Haribo.
They always improve my performance.
Especially Star Mix.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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dont forget to buy the most expensive creatine,its proven the more you pay the greater the placebo effect.
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:oops:
A fair few good climbers I know take creatine and don't want people to know, they all climb 8B, at least.
This is not to say taking it will make you climb 8B but they do and they do. Oh and that's just the Brits.
For balance none of the 8B and above climbers I know take creatine.
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:oops:A fair few good climbers I know take creatine and don't want people to know, they all climb 8B, at least.
This is not to say taking it will make you climb 8B but they do and they do. Oh and that's just the Brits.
For balance none of the 8B and above climbers I know take creatine.
none of the strong people i know at the gym bother with it either
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I guess the gym folk may be using more erm 'effective' supplements?!
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That said, I'd be gutted if someone tamed a boulder-problem/route monstrosity such as Hubble by use of a knee-pad.
SShhh... you'll encourage Barrows
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A fair few good climbers I know take creatine and don't want people to know, they all climb 8B, at least.
This is not to say taking it will make you climb 8B but they do and they do. Oh and that's just the Brits.
Name and shame then you fuckin pussy
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I don't want to be rude but you have absolutely no idea what people do in the privacy of their own home if they don't want people to know Stubbs. Maybe the depot is more reluctant to talk about it? I'd tell you people who I know you know that take it but like I said they don't want you to know. Capice?
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Pete why don't you take your point further: there are plenty of performance enhancing substances readily available and not strictly illegal, but that are banned under competitions rules. As climbing on rocks falls outside of these rules, why not use these substances too?
Go on then, why not?
I'm not up on other stuff apart from the well-known ones I've mentioned, plus Bi-carb of soda which is proven to significantly buffer lactic and improve performance in anaerobic tests and has been used by athletes for a long time (I know, lactic isn't the issue etc. etc.) but it gives you the terrible shits and has high salt content. I think a well-known Scottish wad may have experimented with bi-carb...
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I don't want to be rude but you have absolutely no idea what people do in the privacy of their own home if they don't want people to know Stubbs. Maybe the depot is more reluctant to talk about it? I'd tell you people who I know you know that take it but like I said they don't want you to know. Capice?
How utterly pathetic. Be a man
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To be fair to Stubbs I can understand where he's coming from. When there's a couple of people stood stooped out of the wind and sheep shit at almscliff and you've gotta put your shoes back on in the break in the blizzard it's hard to believe that some people take climbing seriously.
:ohmy:
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Why the fuck wouldn't you want people to know? Presumably because you think it's useful enough that you want to keep it a secret? Unless they're a comp climber that's pretty lame. Actually, even if they're a comp climber that's pretty lame.
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To be fair to Stubbs I can understand where he's coming from. When there's a couple of people stood stooped out of the wind and sheep shit at almscliff and you've gotta put your shoes back on in the break in the blizzard it's hard to believe that some people take climbing seriously.
:ohmy:
Is this you still trying not to be rude?
I don't know who you are referring to but I'm talking about climbers who are close friends, not those who I happen to to the same was as. And as none of them know you I'd be surprised if they'd confided secret supplement habits to you. That is unless your new price for spotting people on the Ace is that they tell you a secret.
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Hold up, don't be hating on Dense's legion of junkie 8B-bouldering buddies - he's got their backs.
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I dabbled with some creatine mono hydrate a couple on years back on top of some whey protein twice a day for a few months whilst campussing/weighted pull-up-img and weight training. It seemed to help me put on 4kg and push/pull/lift heavier weights. I felt stronger and briefly threatened to develop a chest and arms... but the extra weight counterbalanced this, so the climbing stayed the same. It did induce the good habit of drinking a lot more water whilst training though.
Having moved to Wales and just climbed all winter indoors with a massive reduction in alcohol (1-2 beers a week)/having a 90% vegan diet/working on my feet more, the resultant leanness has made a much bigger difference to climbing whilst not losing too much if any strength.
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I've used it on occasion it definitely increased the number of redpoint attempts l got. :strongbench:
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They're nothing to do with me 3-9
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Focused traing for bouldering is no longer something my body can take, however often I try the cycle of improvement to then injury is at an all time short frequency interval.
I have used creatine, whey, branch chain AAs - esp luecine etc... Extensively end of 2014/ early 15. Until injuring myself on a 8 to 13 rep max free weight regieme - caused me to bow out of Sharkathon a week early. Many trivial ramblings about my experiences on there.
My power to body weight ratio for pull pumps, lat pull downs went up dramatically. I also lost a lot of bady fat. Like needing new trousers sort of girth loss.
Fluid retention didnt seem a problem.
My aims were general strength gains. The vast amount of bodybuilding knowledge on losing fat, and being able to control anabolic muscle mass with timing of protein shakes post work out, reduction in DOMS and having a really good diet, with severely limited alcohol really improves overall strength. In fact I'm hitting up another booze free, very low carb high protein month cycle starting on Monday.
That's for an mountain bike endurance event in the alps ( 40,000 ft of descent in a day) and some obstacle course events back the uk later on in the year.
Back in th day I did all of the training, good and bad, that most of us that are ascertain age did in the late 80s / early 90s.
Would I employ the above method I use now to redpoint harder? Probably not. Would I eat more protein, use protein supplements with creatine in after long training sessions, probably yes. Would I not solely focus on climbing to get better at red pointing. Bit of cross training sort of stuff, yes I'd do a bit.
Have I helped the discussion, I doubt it.
Everything in moderation, if your diet is not perfect, your sleep pattern not ideal then same as any training for any sport... Pills for breakfast isn't going to show a noticeable benefit.
However, creatine responders can, and as above is well evidenced, make very impressive gains...... Go on, give it a go and see if it helps.
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Oh come on guys, all this power endurance induced creatine frenzy is making you all missing the point.
The point is: take speed, climb Hubble, bask in glory for the rest of your life.
;D
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Well done everyone, interesting thread. I didn’t realise denise knew anyone who climbed 8B for example, that changes everything. I did know that stubbles shares my love of windy hills in proper Yorkshire.
Bickering and sarcasm aside, I’m up for some doping(*). It won’t fix the dodgy footwork that caused me to break my nose on a volume down the wall on Wednesday, but it may mean I can get strong enough to warm up entirely on the board and avoid such mishaps in the future.
Questions of those in the know
- you say the loading phase causes all the water retention, so you skip it; what effect does skipping it have on the effectiveness of the protocol? Would it be a better idea to cycle off it and lose the extra water then?
- If you cycle off it, to lose the water, don’t you use the benefits too (i.e. have less CP in the muscles)? Or is it strictly a training aid to help with larger volumes in a particular training phase, with negligible peak performance effects?
- Nitro rich beetlejuice? What’s this for?
I assume you’re all chugging whey and glutamine too... but I guess that’s off topic.
(*) it can’t be banned, as otherwise you’d have to ban red mean, yes looking at you stubbs…
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Creatine loading:
The theory goes that instead of spending a week loading up your body's stores at 20 grams per day, you do it over a longer time period at 5 grams per day and this avoids much/all of the weight gain associated with water retention.
Timing:
Creatine has a long half-life in the body - you'll need to DYOR to find out the exact rate at which it degrades but I seem to remember 6 weeks to half-life as a rule of thumb. In practice this means you can stop taking it at the end of a strength phase (or a power phase), having benefited from increased performance during strength training, and keep the benefits for a significant time afterwards - i.e. through a peak climbing phase. Until such time you choose to restart supplementing.
Creatine improves the 1 -2 move power aspect of performance in climbing. In theory.
Beta-Alalnine:
Beta-Al is the rate-limiting substrate of a substance called Carnosine. L-Histidine is the other main substrate of Carnosine but the body can produce enough of this to not require supplemting. Your body uses Carnosine in muscles as a buffer for lactic acid acid, among other things. Therefore in theory the more Carnosine your body can produce, the better you'll be able to perform under high lactic acid conditions (yes, lactic acid isn't the bogeyman for muscle performance it once was considered but still..).
The performance aspect Beta-Al improves is high-to-mid intensity power-endurance type climbing - i.e. a sustained sequence of powerful moves.
Beta-Al has a more rapid ha;f-life than Creatine and, I think, washes out within 2-3 weeks.
High Nitrate (Beetroot juice, etc.):
The inorganic Nitrate content in concentrated beetroot juice converts within the body to Nitrite, which is a precursor of Nitric Oxide, a vasodilator. In short it improves blood-flow to muscles under resting conditions by relaxing certain blood vessels, among other effects. This improves the low-end long endurance aspect of climbing performance - think recovery on jugs following hard climbing below. In theory.
It works in one-dose. I don't think it works cumulatively i.e. you don't need to build up a store of Nitrate - not sure on this though DYOR.
The three substances complement each other well by covering different aspects of climbing fitness. In theory.
Caffeine also has a small performance benefit for low-end endurance (and mental clarity). For some, in theory.
There are reasons to be cautious about using Creatine, Beta-Al and high levels of inorganic Nitrate - taurine depletion is one related to chronic use of Beta-Al, but there are plenty other reasons to be careful. DYOR.
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The main thing I think that's been overlooked is there is no need to use supplements if you stand around in a shop or sit in an office all day doing fuck all except watching how much you eat and climbing on rock 4-5 times a wk, conversely if your parents are wedged out of their minds and you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for a person or in other words a trustafarian you'll also be ok but god forbid if you do something for a living you need to make up the deficit then you can do a lot worse than creatine.
Quick tip for people that think they know things; if someone trains or climbs twice a day or more they're taking something.
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The main thing I think that's been overlooked is there is no need to use supplements if you stand around in a shop or sit in an office all day doing fuck all except watching how much you eat and climbing on rock 4-5 times a wk, conversely if your parents are wedged out of their minds and you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for a person or in other words a trustafarian you'll also be ok but god forbid if you do something for a living you need to make up the deficit then you can do a lot worse than creatine.
Quick tip for people that think they know things; if someone trains or climbs twice a day or more they're taking something.
I'm actually with you entirely on this thread Dense (yeah, I know, shocking) except the last bit.
I am now climbing AND training every day (not this week, rest week); typically 1.5-2hrs of climbing (indoor) and circa 2 + hrs of training. I take a Matrix recovery shake after the training session.
Otherwise, just a slight modification to my diet (slightly less Pizza).
Losing weight, getting stronger, still climbing like a spastic hippo on acid but improving.
Nothing else (except the Haribo and Esspresso).
Can't see me ticking "Tuppence" (which was a very real aim four years ago) but a respectable twilight grade should be obtainable.
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That's to me the least comprehensivable post I've ever seen from Dense ever...
And what Pete said is just about my understanding on the subject, very well said. Though I should have added... I Add taurine to my protien shakes for the reasons explained.
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So given that I spend 5 days a week at work, climb 3 or 4 times a week and drink a shed load of red wine. I'm wasting my money buying creatine, steroids and amphetamine in order to keep climbing at 7a.
Well that's a bit of ball ache, if only I'd asked your advise before starting my training.
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I translated Dense's "do something for a living" as "have a physical job", seemed moderately more intelligible then.
The valid point being that for most of us there are limited returns from supplementation that do not compete with just getting out and doing some climbing.
Still, I've just bought 2.5kg of Hurricane XS, Tiramisu flavour was a bit tempting...
I have read that rather than loading creatine a protocol of 15mg daily for 3 weeks and getting straight into training is just as effective. Cannot recall where though, might well be T Nation.
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I'd seriously go for all types of the met amphetamine ring.. What could possibly go wrong... With your knowledge... It's all gravy.
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Seriously rate the hurricane XS, agree. Loading in our line of sport is useless... As said above.
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I'd seriously go for all types of the met amphetamine ring.. What could possibly go wrong... With your knowledge... It's all gravy.
That was Tom Simpson's (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson) view...
Btw how much of the Hurricane do you consume / day Jon?
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One shot, every 3 days after a training sesh.. And once again as a lunch substitute. So 4 a week mate.
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I was expecting 2 times a day or some such, that's not v much creatine unless you're taking it more directly in OJ or something?
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Can't see me ticking "Tuppence" (which was a very real aim four years ago) but a respectable twilight grade should be obtainable.
Get it done!
Ken was on Smarties, though he wouldn't tell me what colour ;D
*****
On topic, I trained with creatine for a short time about 10 years ago. I used a serum. The main effect seemed to be to increase the duration at peak output, meaning my capacity for relatively explosive work was higher.
I also used whey protein drinks as part of my recovery.
I'd say I believe I benefited significantly. This may be partly to do with having a predominantly vegetarian diet, no red meat etc.
As with all these things, RECOVERY is the most important factor. These days I can't afford the supplements, and train for lots of reasons, but my sleep is generally less than ideal. The other day, I woke up after 10 hours sleep ... and felt amazing.
8)
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Still, I've just bought 2.5kg of Hurricane XS, Tiramisu flavour was a bit tempting...
I have read that rather than loading creatine a protocol of 15mg daily for 3 weeks and getting straight into training is just as effective. Cannot recall where though, might well be T Nation.
So, are you fixed then? :2thumbsup:
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The main thing I think that's been overlooked is there is no need to use supplements if you stand around in a shop or sit in an office all day doing fuck all except watching how much you eat and climbing on rock 4-5 times a wk, conversely if your parents are wedged out of their minds and you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for a person or in other words a trustafarian you'll also be ok but god forbid if you do something for a living you need to make up the deficit then you can do a lot worse than creatine.
Quick tip for people that think they know things; if someone trains or climbs twice a day or more they're taking something.
You live in a strange strange world, I've heard of the Boulder bubble, didn't realise there was a Sheffield bubble too!
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I was expecting 2 times a day or some such, that's not v much creatine unless you're taking it more directly in OJ or something?
That's over Three grams a day. One shot being three pills of 1000mg.
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Ah ok I thought you were referring to a protein shake like Hurricane. 3G isn't huge but sounds about right for your build from what I've read. You probably ingest another couple of grammes in diet I guess.
DT- cheers Dave, I think so, let's get out sometime soon. Stoney awaits ( though other crags exist too, I believe..) :)
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The main thing I think that's been overlooked is there is no need to use supplements if you stand around in a shop or sit in an office all day doing fuck all except watching how much you eat and climbing on rock 4-5 times a wk, conversely if your parents are wedged out of their minds and you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for a person or in other words a trustafarian you'll also be ok but god forbid if you do something for a living you need to make up the deficit then you can do a lot worse than creatine.
Quick tip for people that think they know things; if someone trains or climbs twice a day or more they're taking something.
Sounds like you have lost touch with reality pal!
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I'm struggling with the science here a bit, bear with me.
So, having done my own reading as suggested, and this is what I think I've found out.
* The loading phase - 20g a day for a week - is to fill the muscles up, i.e. fill up the tank. The 5g a day is to keep the tank full, combo of what you use and what just degrades away. Right? If you just go with 5g a day, then eventually, you'll end up full, probably - but this time varies depending on what the delta between how much degrades, how much you use, and what you're supplementing. Once the muscle is full, extra creatine isn't absorbed into the muscle, instead you excrete it and waste money.
* The water retention is water entering the muscle along with the creatine.
So here's Q.1. If the water gain is as part of creatine going into the muscle, and leaves when the creatine does, how does filling the tank slowly (5g a day, no loading phase), vs. fast (20g a day, loading phase), make any difference? The muscle is full of creatine, the creatine comes with a water cost, so... riddle me that somebody with some knowledge?
Next up:
* The benefits of creatine use is power for longer, as you've got more in the tank. So you can train harder. This is because there's more fuel available to the muscle. Hurrah. Once it's gone, it's gone.
* Stopping supplementing means that the creatine level will drop (along with the water...). So the effect will drop.
Q.2: that's not what I thought you guys were saying.
Perhaps Q2 is more subtle, or perhaps I've misunderstood. But unless I'm not getting it, I think that:
- you eat creatine, your fuel goes up, and your weight goes up
- you train hard for longer: body grows more muscles and adapts etc. more than it would before as you are heavy and have more gas.
- if you stop taking it, and wait 4-8 weeks for the creatine level to drop, your weight will also drop, and you can make use of the extra power (and the now returned to normal weight).
- if you stop taking it, and don't wait long enough, you'll have more gas but you'll still be heavy
So if we care about being heavy most, then we need to cycle off for performance or we're just trying to peak perform wearing a weight belt. If you care about fuel most, then never stop taking it...
All that right? Or am I missing something?
In particular, I'm struggling to see the "creatine level up without weight gain" bit...
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You're missing the recovery of the muscle happens much faster, allowing you to train more often
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Resynthesis of ATP happens faster and so v short term recovery is faster, sure, but overall recovery :-\
Is that gleaned from reading round, others' or your experience? Just interested.
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No he learnt that at the Yoga classes Lund recommended.
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Here's something you won't hear very often.
I've tried loads of shit, from healthfood (swipe only offered halfords or halitosis rather aptly for that word) and weightlifting shops and can honestly say that (anecdotally) these expensive supplements all help you believe you can train more frequently/better etc., but none have helped me, while in the (ridiculously) short term they may have made me feel better/stronger. They are crutches, and expensive ones at that, well except from creatine which is really cheap these days.
Eating clean also makes next to no difference (to me, but I'm a youngster on this forum at 39, no not that three nine) compared to just eating well.
All of my best progress has been made when simply looking after myself and training really, really hard and really, really well.
I don't even bother with protein shakes any more. I mean I understand why one may feel they need it, I certainly used to , but by the time you feel you need it that horse has well and truly bolted.
Dense, young Mr Turner is right, you've totally lost it. Even in my late twenties I could train twice a day, every day for a month using only a second coffee. The only reason I can't now is due to being a "proper" grown up.
I don't have any science to add, but will add this; CLA made me look ripped; creatine made me look bigger (and looking back at photos my face looked puffy); caffeine makes me shaky and a wee bit stronger, but contracts the length of session; pseudoephedrine makes me shaky and a wee bit stronger but contracts the length of a session; sugary drinks make me feel better between attempts but contract the length of a session; protein shakes made me believe that the hard work I had put in would pay off.
The very first time I took the stimulants above (not everything above just the ones ending "ine") in relation to training I felt superhuman, but the subsequent sessions they were necessary just to feel normal, rather than weak. It took me years to realise how much bullshit they are and how much of a crutch they are.
I'm going to do an almost dense, but without any name dropping. A strong boulderer who shall not be named asked me about peptides and if I used them. He said that I should look into it and let him know how I got on. I did look into it, but didn't act; £1,000 a dose injected into your fucking thigh something you bought online.
Long and short of it, if you don't have to order it off the dark net, or by it from a shady character on a street corner, it's a crutch; but maybe that's all you need to push your grade so go for it, or don't and just change your training without spending money on extra calories, or snake oil. So if you can have a little fucking faith in your body's ability to adapt to the new training. Otherwise, take the supplements if they help you to do so.
That is all, my red wine supplement is well and truly running dry and it's almost pumpkin time.
Edit: typo and clarity
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An almost dense? I didn't drop any names at all :ras:
All I did was point out that a lot of climbers I know, or know of, operating at the higher grades take it. Then gave a general rule of thumb, which works. To your point on age rodma, I agree with you completely btw, most of them taking it are late teens or twenty something's! Why people don't want people to know is beyond me.
Stubbs i take it you're not gonna watch Vail tonight? A lot of pumped up athletes strutting round with excess shit in their bodies when all they need to do is smoke tabs n go ont moor.
Mrjonathanmr I only took it re lifting weights, I was a lot bigger and stronger then so couldn't comment on it's crossover to climbing from a personal pov. I have dabbled a couple of times I suppose but not even for a wk both times, makes me piss like a racehorse!
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I meant I didn't do any name dropping by that statement. Not that you had named names on this occasion [emoji14]
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Chris says hi
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Thanks for the answer.
In my case I suspect the key to improvement is very simple: climb more, get injured less, and wind the clock back 20 years.
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Look at your baseline body composition. If you are someone who can't gain weight or muscle regardless of food intake or workouts, then it may be a good idea. If you're like me, (easily gain weight/muscle) then maybe not. I tried it for a very brief time, and the weight gain was extraordinary. I added about 10-15lbs over 5 weeks with very little dietary change. And when I stopped taking it, only about 5lbs dropped off. My #1 peformance limiter these days is weight and health, which are intertwined for me. If I drop below about 165lbs, then I'm more prone to injury, so I walk a fine line...
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Is Sasquatch a pseudonym?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq0fUa0vW_E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq0fUa0vW_E)
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;D
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Well TPM are you strong yet?
I thought id have a go, and have been taking 5mg on training days for about two weeks now. Only result i can see so far is im 2.5lbs heavier and I get a nasty flash pump feeling on boulder probs longer than 2 moves :'( (tho one of these might be cake-related rather than creatine related).
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Well TPM are you strong yet?
I thought id have a go, and have been taking 5mg on training days for about two weeks now. Only result i can see so far is im 2.5lbs heavier and I get a nasty flash pump feeling on boulder probs longer than 2 moves :'( (tho one of these might be cake-related rather than creatine related).
They both might be.
Depending on whether the cake is being consumed mid-problem...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Nah the cake is always on a strict timetable as part of my cake-loading phase.
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Well TPM are you strong yet?
I thought id have a go, and have been taking 5mg on training days for about two weeks now. Only result i can see so far is im 2.5lbs heavier and I get a nasty flash pump feeling on boulder probs longer than 2 moves :'( (tho one of these might be cake-related rather than creatine related).
Started taking a protein/creatine mix a few weeks ago on training days and noticed this a couple of times- wasn't sure if I imagined it.
Definitely I think my session endurance for bouldering seems significantly better -quicker recovery between problems and feeling stronger longer into the session - but have felt myself getting pumped/powered out on sustained routes in a way I didn't notice before - i.e. not recovering on shakeouts and the pump harder to shift - a bit like a flash pump but even after warming up .
Has anyone else experienced this?
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Long-term creatine supplementation does not increase
muscular strength in habitual strength trainers
J.P. Folland and D.A. Jones
Long term creatine doesn't make up for the adjustment in bodyweight
Long term creatine = incr BW approx 2%, but also incr strength (4% in elbow flexor in this particular one)
BUT.... did find significant increase in isometric strength in novice female strength trainers (9% above placebo).
Overall, I suspect there's no big advantage here if you're a long termer.
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Can you post a link to the study? Just had a brief search and couldn't find one. I don't think you can take too much away from a single study about anything.
Here's more than enough information from the body of knowledge about Creatine; Beta-Al; Caffiene; Beetroot and other stuff, to occupy any training geek's reading homework for the summer. Taken from the 'Gatorade Sports Science Institute' so it's totally unbiased and objective :lol:
:coffee:
SSE #130: Supplements for Consideration in Football (http://www.gssiweb.org/Article/sse-130-supplements-for-consideration-in-football)
Creatine
In addition to caffeine, creatine is also one of the most widely researched supplements that has a strong supporting evidence base. Creatine is a guanidine compound that it is synthesized in the liver and kidney from the amino acids arginine and glycine. From a dietary perspective, the predominant sources of creatine are fish and red meat. The largest store of creatine in the body is skeletal muscle (Wyss & Kaddurah-Daouk, 2000), where approximately 60-70% is stored as a phosphorylated form known as phosphocreatine (PCr). Creatine supplementation has traditionally been associated with strength and power athletes such as weightlifters and sprinters given the role of PCr hydrolysis in regenerating ATP during the initial seconds of supra-maximal activity. In the context of football, however, creatine supplementation is also of particular reference given that phosphocreatine stores exhibit significant declines during football match play (Krustrup et al., 2006). Accordingly, creatine supplementation improves repeated sprint performance during both short duration (Casey et al., 1996) and prolonged intermittent exercise protocols (Mujika et al., 2000), likely due to increased resting muscle PCr stores as well as improved rates of phosphocreatine resynthesis in the recovery periods between successive sprints (Casey et al., 1996). In addition to augmenting repeated sprint performance, players may also wish to consume creatine with the goal of augmenting training-induced improvements in muscle mass, strength and power (e.g., Branch, 2003).
Harris et al. (1992) provided the initial evidence that creatine supplementation (using a loading protocol of 20 g/d for 5 d) increased (in the magnitude of 20%) both total creatine and PCr stores in skeletal muscle. As such, the conventional creatine dosing strategy is to undertake a loading protocol (usually involving 4 x 5 g doses/d for 5-7 d) followed by a daily maintenance dose of 3-5 g/d (Hultman et al., 1996). However, given that player adherence to such a protocol may be limited, it is noteworthy that daily consumption of a lower dose over a longer period (i.e., 3 g/d for 30 d) will eventually augment muscle creatine to a similar level as that observed with classical loading protocols (Hultman et al., 1996). Upon cessation of supplementation, the elevated muscle creatine stores tend to return towards basal levels within 5-8 weeks (Hultman et al., 1996). To maximize creatine storage to a given dose, it is also recommended that creatine be consumed post-exercise and in conjunction with carbohydrate and/or protein feeding given that contraction and elevated insulin are known to increase muscle creatine uptake (Robinson et al., 1999). In a practical context, this means ensuring creatine provision before and after training periods in conjunction with other sports nutrition products containing carbohydrate (and/or protein) or with whole food provision at the main meals of breakfast, lunch and dinner. Prior loading with creatine may also enhance post-exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis rates (Robinson et al., 1999). Considering the difficulty of replenishing post-game muscle glycogen stores even with sufficient carbohydrate and protein intakes, this strategy appears relevant during those periods of intense fixture schedules when multiple games are played with limited recovery time.
Analogous to caffeine, it is noteworthy that not every individual will respond similarly to creatine supplementation in terms of both augmentation of muscle creatine stores and subsequent improvements in performance. Indeed, the magnitude of elevation of muscle creatine to a given dose of creatine supplementation is highly variable and appears to be largely determined by the initial level of muscle creatine concentration prior to supplementation, the latter likely determined by habitual diet (Hultman et al., 1996). In general, individuals with lower muscle creatine stores exhibit greater increases in total muscle creatine during supplementation compared with those individuals who already exhibit high concentrations of muscle creatine (Hultman et al., 1996). Accordingly, creatine-induced improvements in intermittent exercise performance are greater in those individuals who exhibited larger increases in muscle (especially Type II fibres) creatine and PCr (Casey et al., 1996).
Acute creatine supplementation (i.e., loading) can also induce a 1-1.5 kg gain in body mass, an effect that is greater in men compared with women (Mihic et al., 2000). Such increases in body mass are confined to fat free mass and are likely due to an increase in intra-cellular water accumulation. For this reason, not all players may choose to supplement with creatine given the perception that they feel heavier and slower, an effect that may be especially relevant for those lighter players (such as strikers and wide midfielders) who rely on speed and agility as key physical attributes. Additionally, creatine supplementation is also often perceived to have negative health effects in terms of liver and kidney function. It is noteworthy, however, that prospective studies demonstrate no adverse health effects in healthy individuals who were long-term creatine users (Poortmans & Francaux, 1999). Nevertheless, given that it takes weeks for creatine stores to return towards basal levels upon the cessation of supplementation (hence ergogenic effects should still occur), it may be prudent for players to “cycle” creatine supplementation to specific stages of the season (e.g., pre-season, congested fixture schedules) and/or training goals (e.g., strength / hypertrophy goals).
β-alanine
In skeletal muscle cells, β-alanine combines with L-histidine to form the dipeptide β-alanyl-L-histidine, the latter more commonly known as carnosine. Carnosine is of particular reference for high-intensity exercise performance given that it can act as an intracellular buffer to H+ due to its imidazole ring having a pKa of 6.83 whilst also being present in muscle at fairly high concentrations (e.g. 10-60 mmol/kg d.w) (Hobson et al., 2012). Given the repeated sprint nature of football match play, muscle pH declines to levels that may impair the capacity to generate ATP through glycolytic metabolism (Krustrup et al., 2006). As such, it has become common practice for football players to consume daily β-alanine supplements (as the rate-limiting determinant of carnosine synthesis) so as to increase muscle carnosine stores and hence, potentially improve high-intensity exercise performance. Indeed, in relation to the former, daily β-alanine supplementation has been consistently shown to elevate skeletal muscle carnosine concentration by approximately 50% in both type I and II human skeletal muscle fibres (Hill et al., 2007; Harris et al., 2012). Furthermore, in recent meta-analyses, Hobson et al. (2012) concluded likely ergogenic effects of β-alanine supplementation during high-intensity sports lasting in duration from 1- 6 min such as track and field events, cycling, rowing and swimming.
Unfortunately, investigations evaluating the effects of β-alanine supplementation during high-intensity intermittent exercise protocols that are applicable to football are both limited and conflicting. For example, Saunders et al. (2012a) observed no beneficial effect of four weeks of β-alanine supplementation (6.4 g/d) on sprint performance during the Loughborough Intermittent Shuttle Test, a prolonged field test designed to mimic the activity pattern of team sports. In contrast, the same researchers later observed improved performance during the Yo-Yo Intermittent Recovery Test Level 2 following 12 weeks of daily supplementation with 3.2 g of β-alanine (Saunders et al., 2012b). Unfortunately, both studies did not report changes in muscle carnosine stores following supplementation though it is possible that the enhanced effect observed in the latter study was due to the longer period of supplementation. This hypothesis is especially relevant given that length of β-alanine supplementation is a determinant of increases in muscle carnosine concentration (Hill et al., 2007).
A negative side effect of β-alanine supplementation when administered as single doses >10 mg/kg BM (especially when in solution or as gelatin capsules) is a flushing of the skin and tingly sensation (Harris et al., 2006), a phenomenon known as paraesthesia. To reduce such symptoms, sustained release formulations have been developed that allow two 800 mg doses to be ingested simultaneously without any symptoms (Decombaz et al., 2012). Although the optimal dosing and delivery strategy of β-alanine supplementation is not currently known, it is noteworthy that a significant linear relationship exists between total β-alanine intake (within the range of 1.6-6.4 g/ d) and both relative and absolute increases in muscle carnosine (Stellingwerff et al., 2012a). To this end, Stellingwerff et al. (2012b) observed that four weeks of supplementation with 3.2 g of β-alanine induced 2-fold greater increases in muscle carnosine stores compared with 1.6 g/day. Moreover, these researchers also observed that subsequent daily doses of 1.6 g/d continued to induce further increases despite already high carnosine stores following the four weeks of higher dose β-alanine supplementation. More recently, Stegen et al. (2014) also observed that following six weeks of 3.2 g β-alanine/d a further daily maintenance dose of 1.2 g/d was required to maintain muscle carnosine content elevated at 30-50% above baseline values. Indeed, upon cessation of supplementation, muscle carnosine stores typically return towards basal levels within 10-20 weeks (Baguet et al., 2009). On the basis of the above background, it is therefore recommended that where muscle carnosine stores are required to be elevated quickly (perhaps during important stages of competition such as intense fixture schedules), loading with larger doses (e.g. 3-6 g/d for 3-4 wks) would be initially beneficial followed by daily maintenance doses >1.2 g. To minimize symptoms of paraesthesia, players may benefit from consuming slow-release formulas in a number of doses spread evenly throughout the day.
Nitrate
In recent years, dietary inorganic nitrate supplementation has received a significant amount of research attention due to the effects of nitric oxide on a variety of physiological functions. Indeed, nitric oxide has well-documented roles in regulating blood flow, muscle glucose uptake and contractile properties of skeletal muscle (Jones, 2014). The traditional pathway of endogenous nitric oxide production is recognized as that of L-arginine oxidation, as facilitated by the enzyme nitric oxide synthase. However, it is now known that dietary ingestion of inorganic nitrate can also be metabolized to nitrite and subsequently, nitric oxide, thereby complementing that produced from the L-arginine pathway (Hord et al., 2009). Identification of this biochemical pathway has therefore led to a series of studies conducted in the last decade evaluating the effects of inorganic nitrate ingestion on exercise performance.
Nitrates are especially high in green leafy vegetables such as beetroot, lettuce and spinach though the exact content can vary considerably based on soil conditions and time of year. As a means to provide a constant dose of nitrate, most researchers have therefore used standard doses of beetroot juice (0.5 L is equivalent to approximately 5 mmol nitrate) so as to elevate nitrate and nitrite availability. Using both chronic (ranging from 3-15 d of 0.5 L beetroot juice per day) and/or acute ingestion 2.5 h before exercise, it was collectively demonstrated that nitrate ingestion reduces blood pressure, lowers oxygen consumption for a given workload or velocity during steady-state exercise as well as improving exercise capacity during short-duration high-intensity cycling or running (Bailey et al., 2009, 2010; Vanhatalo et al., 2010; Lansley et al., 2011a). These initial studies were later supported by experiments demonstrating that acute (Lansley et al., 2011b) and chronic beetroot juice ingestion (Cermak et al., 2012) in trained but sub-elite athletes also improved cycling time trial performance in distances ranging from 4 km to 16.1 km (i.e., approximately 5-30 min of exercise). It is noteworthy, however, that the performance-enhancing effects of nitrate is not readily apparent in elite athletes (Wilkerson et al., 2012), likely due to a combination of underpinning differences in the physiology of elite versus sub-elite athletes that collectively render a trained athlete less sensitive to additional nitric oxide availability, e.g., higher nitric oxide synthase activity, plasma nitrite values, greater muscle capillarization, higher type I fibres (Jones, 2014).
The mechanisms underpinning reduced oxygen cost of exercise and improved capacity / performance are currently thought to be due to improved muscle efficiency and energy metabolism (Jones, 2014). For example, Bailey et al. (2010) observed that reduced oxygen uptake during exercise (following six days of 0.5 L beetroot juice ingestion per day) was associated with reduced PCr degradation and accumulation of ADP and Pi, thus implying a reduced ATP cost of contraction for a given power output and hence reduced signals to stimulate respiration. Using three days of sodium nitrate ingestion (0.1 mmol/kg BM), Larsen et al. (2011) suggested that mitochondrial efficiency in mitochondria might be improved in isolated from human skeletal muscle following supplementation. More recently, Haider and Folland (2014) observed that seven days of nitrate loading in the form of concentrated beetroot juice (9.7 mmol/d) also improved in vivo contractile properties of human skeletal muscle, as evidenced by improved excitation-coupling at low frequencies of stimulation as well as explosive force produced by supra-maximal stimulation.
The optimal loading dose to facilitate the ergogenic effects of nitrate is also not currently well known, especially in relation to whether acute (i.e., 2.5 h before exercise) or chronic (i.e., several days) loading protocols are required. Nevertheless, in the acute context, Wylie et al. (2013a) observed that the improved exercise tolerance (relative to placebo) was not different when 8.4 or 16.8 mmol of nitrate was ingested 2.5 h before exercise. It is noteworthy, however, that the reduction in oxygen cost during exercise associated with nitrate ingestion was greater with the higher dose. Such data suggest that inability to detect physiological effects of nitrate in acute scenarios (especially with elite athletes) may be overcome by using higher pre-exercise dosing strategies and/or longer duration dosing protocols (>3 days).
Despite the data reviewed above, convincing evidence demonstrating ergogenic effects of nitrate ingestion during intermittent exercise protocols relative to football is not yet available. However, using a more aggressive loading dose of concentrated beetroot juice (approximately 30 mmol in a 36 h period), Wylie et al. (2013b) observed significant improvements in the distance run on the Yo-Yo Intermittent Recovery Test Level 1 when compared with placebo supplementation. Interestingly, these researchers observed reduced plasma glucose during exercise in the beetroot trial, suggesting that muscle glucose increased and that improved performance may be due to muscle glycogen sparing. Additionally, improved performance may have been due to maintained muscle membrane excitability given that plasma K+ was lower during exercise following beetroot juice supplementation. From a practical perspective, the use of an intense 36 h nitrate loading protocol is likely to gain more acceptance amongst football players than the conventional 3-6 day loading approach. Nevertheless, the practical application of nitrate supplementation (even in concentrated form) may be limited due to the taste and palatability issues of the current nitrate products that are commercially available. Given the limited available evidence for football-specific protocols, it is therefore highly recommended that players experiment with nitrate supplementation (perhaps even more so than the supplements reviewed previously) prior to implementing in high-level competition.
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:coffee:
References
Baguet, A., Reyngoudt, H., Pottier, A., Everaert, I., Callens, S., Achten, E. and Derave, W. (2009). Carnosine loading and washout in human skeletal muscles. J. Appl. Physiol. 106: 837-842.
Bailey, S.J., Winyard, P., Vanhatalo, A., Blackwell, J.R., Dimenna, F.J., Wilkerson, D.P., Tarr, J., Benjamin, N. and Jones, A.M. (2009). Dietary nitrate supplementation reduces the O cost of low-intensity exercise and enahcnes exercise tolerance to high-intensity exercise in humans. J. Appl. Physiol. 107: 1144-1155.
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Yeah but does it give you a flash pump?
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:clap2: Can't believe I got puntered for not linking every study - I assume?! The point being made was that there are shit-loads of studies on this stuff that you can use to go and educate yourself. To post up just one study and say 'overall, xyz probably applies' doesn't really provide much context.
Yeah but does it give you a flash pump?
It does with me, unless I work on endurance (aerocap in €).
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Pete, I don't think you will be able to get a link to the study as it's a paper from a conference - British Assoc of Sport and Exercise Sciences. If you have Pubmed etc you'll be able to get it with the usual search functions.
And yes, as ever, you can't take too much away from a single study. That said, if I'd found convincing evidence and findings that lead me to think I could get more out of my climbing performance by taking it long term then I would.... And I don't....
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It was a jocular puntering for pasting A MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT instead of just the (perfectly adequate) link in your first post.
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Just got on board the creatine train. Apparantly something like 80% of competitors in the 2012 olympics were using it during training :o
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Source?
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Source?
He said "Apparantly" isn't that enough evidence for you? perhaps if he'd written "it's a well known fact that" you'd be happier with the validity of the statement :lol:
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"They say that ... "
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Blah. I'll retract that, as I can't find whatever article I dug that snippet out of. Google chrome bookmarks let me down once again
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Blah. I'll retract that, as I can't find whatever article I dug that snippet out of. Google chrome bookmarks let me down once again
Why? You're just quoting hearsay. No problem. Usual caveats apply..
This is hardly peer review ;D
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Blah. I'll retract that, as I can't find whatever article I dug that snippet out of. Google chrome bookmarks let me down once again
Why? You're just quoting hearsay. No problem. Usual caveats apply..
This is hardly peer review ;D
What?!?!
I'll have you know Professor L. A. Dense is the worlds leading authority on Omni Scientia... And we are all his acolytes!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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:ohmy:
I prefer to look at it like dense just knows quite a few people who use creatine as a supplement for climbing
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:ohmy:
I prefer to look at it like dense just knows quite a few people who use creatine as a supplement for climbing
I forgot to put the [emoji12][emoji317] etc stuff, to indicate the extreme insertion of tongue into cheek, required when reading my post...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Just got on board the creatine train. Apparantly something like 80% of competitors in the 2012 olympics were using it during training :o
Radio 4 mentioned an old stat (http://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/aug/13/olympics-2012-gb-medallists-private-schooling) today: that 37% of Britain's Olympic 2012 medal winners were public school educated; and that public schools educate 7% of the overall population. They must put creatine on the cornflakes at Eton!
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We get groups of private school and Grammar school kids at the Bunker. Because their teachers organise it and parents will pay for it (not huge amounts).
We don't get groups from state schools.
There must be plenty of kids that would enjoy it and teachers that would organise it, in state schools too. I just imagine the students are drowned out by their peers and teachers just drowned by their workload. PE will consist of that which will entertain the majority the longest, not inspire the the nascent Olympian.
I suspect the ratios are explained more by class size and teacher time-to-pupil, than by lack of opportunity. Plenty of sports clubs for the interested, not enough interest generation input.
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Teachers' workload may well be a factor as well as cost depending on school context. LA guidance/risk assessments can be a hindrance too.
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I found this interesting and useful reading. There is a overview of creatine and other supplements on page 37 and plenty of other useful info on sports nutrition.
It is sponsored by coca cola though and it even recommends cola as a good source of caffeine in one section.
http://www.olympic.org/documents/reports/en/en_report_833.pdf (http://www.olympic.org/documents/reports/en/en_report_833.pdf)
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Just got on board the creatine train. Apparantly something like 80% of competitors in the 2012 olympics were using it during training :o
Radio 4 mentioned an old stat (http://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/aug/13/olympics-2012-gb-medallists-private-schooling) today: that 37% of Britain's Olympic 2012 medal winners were public school educated; and that public schools educate 7% of the overall population. They must put creatine on the cornflakes at Eton!
I thought it went on the biscuits...
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Just got on board the creatine train. Apparantly something like 80% of competitors in the 2012 olympics were using it during training :o
Radio 4 mentioned an old stat (http://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/aug/13/olympics-2012-gb-medallists-private-schooling) today: that 37% of Britain's Olympic 2012 medal winners were public school educated; and that public schools educate 7% of the overall population. They must put creatine on the cornflakes at Eton!
Isn't that just because one of the sports we did well at is rowing, and it's also a sport where there are a bunch of people who all win medals together?
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Where's a tame statistician when you need one?
I suppose to know if the 37% privately educated figure is indicative of social inequality or just a quirk due to a factor like 4-person rowing teams, you'd need to know the total number of UK olympic atheletes (medal-winners and non medal-winners) and what the breakdown is for state and private education.
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Radio 4 mentioned an old stat (http://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/aug/13/olympics-2012-gb-medallists-private-schooling) today: that 37% of Britain's Olympic 2012 medal winners were public school educated; and that public schools educate 7% of the overall population.
Sport's 7:84?
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I've just finished a two month experiment with creatine monohydrate. I took 5g on training days. The only effects ive noticed have been:
1. getting really pumped when I do more than 4 moves in a row
2. weight gain
3. pissing more
Not sure any amount of science or anecdotes about olympic athletes is going to convince me to persist. Anyone want some creatine monohydrate?
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I promised a reply.
I loved the debate the question raised.. cheers all. That was one of the reasons I posted up originally, to get the feedback :popcorn:
I took 3-4mg of creatine for 4/5 weeks. The intension was to take it through a strength/power phase.
I did indeed feel bloated. I did put a couple of kilo's on. I did feel mild cramps when climbing. My grade remained static. None of this was unexpected. It has taken a few weeks to drop the weight and my grade remains the same. I also expected this.
Did I see, or have I seen any improvements. Nope. In fact it left me feeling rubbish and I stopped taking it before I finished the phase. A couple of times I climbed I subjectively felt stronger, just a bit more oomph to finish a climb but I cant scientifically say it was the creatine, I might have just been having a good day, maybe I ate better that day, dunno. But this certainly didn't happen enough to make me attribute it to creatine. On climb days I also felt, as others have said, like my arms were starting to get cramps, not actual cramps but soreness, sort of early pump. It didn't stop the climbing but was noticeable and it basically felt weird but not painful. The main reason I stopped early was because how bloated it made me feel. It was subtle but always present and I just didn't feel comfortable. So I quit. In Dragon style: I'm out.
I claim no science behind either my training approach or the taking of creatine. I read a bit and thought 'yeah, why not give it a go'.
Now back to the normal !
Anybody want a cheap tub of creatine? ;D
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I too have been experimenting on my own body.
During June I took 5g after training, so with the schedule as it is now, 3-4 times a week. During that time I crushed font 7c (indoor training problem), but probably would have anyway. I also stayed resolutely at 65.4kg.
This month I have had a bit of a poor start due to other commitments, but have been trying to eat 5g a day. Weight has stayed fixed at 65.4kg. Done all the moves on another 7c - but the link is the living end. Not yet attributing this to anything. The experiment continues.
With the lack of changes, I wonder if I'm on the placebo. Except, of course, that would imply that there is any SCIENCE whatsoever to this anecdotal bullshit. :-)
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I've been taking 4 anecdotal grams per day for the last 6 weeks during my training block. Just stopped 2 days ago prior to starting route'ing. Weight dropped to 64Kg with some fairly minor dieting assistance over the last 2 weeks. Boshed out personal bests on my fb routine during strength phase, and should have done 1-4-7 even with sleep deprivation during my very short power phase but didn't, but I did do 1-4-7 last training block anyway (also whilst taking creatine).
I get pumped chalking up prior to setting off on routes. Maybe I should stop the creatine earlier.
39 I'll swap you a diet plan for your creatine
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Sorry its gone already. Looks like a corpulent future awaits me...
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@petej,
how do you factor the weight loss into your fb progresses? Just curious.
Losing weight while taking creatine is well strange.
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Hi Nibs, I started my recent training block at 67Kg. It's a shortened phase of training due to trying to squeeze in a good 6 weeks on the Diamond.
Base phase (2 weeks): ate anything I wanted and climbed mileage. Took creatine@ 4g per day
Weight 67Kg.
Strength phase (2 weeks): fingerboarded and ate anything I wanted. Took creatine @ 4g per day. Weight 67 Kg.
Power phase (2 weeks): campussed and dieted for 14 days @ 1600 calories per day. Took creatine @ 4g per day.
Weight 67Kg at start of phase, 64/65Kg at end of phase.
Power endurance and routing phase (6 weeks, I'm 1 week in): Stopped dieting, stopped creatine. Foot-on campussing, route intervals and redpointing.
Weight 64/5 Kg.
So I didn't have to think much about flucuating weight during the fingerboard phase. And I log all my workouts with my weight at the time. Next training phase, if I'm 68 or 66 Kg I'll be aware of how that affects whatever weight I'm adding or taking off. As long as everythings' logged it's easy to look back and compare.
ps. Yesterday I sent my first proj - sure-fire contender for one of the best 8as in the country, a 35 metre pure endurance climb without any hard moves, very unusual style for the UK and my total anti-style. woop.. :smart:
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If you can 'eat what you want' for two weeks and not gain weight, you either have very meagre wants or are very very genetically lucky!
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As an anecdotal countermeasure, I don't take creatine and I get pumped after two moves.
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If you can 'eat what you want' for two weeks and not gain weight, you either have very meagre wants or are very very genetically lucky!
You may have noticed I have a real thing against refined sugars and shit food in general. My diet is good - vpower versus two-stroke, I believe this makes a large difference to how easy it is to manage weight, especially as you age (although Ally S. assures me vpower's a load of bull..)
edit - but... yeah meagre wants - I guess I didn't drink much except 2 bottles of wine in that whole 6 weeks and none at all for the last 4 until a beer last night. I thinkj if I'd been drinking even a beer (refined sugar innit) every other night I'd be at 67-68Kg now.
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Cheers, was especially curious about your fingerboarding progresses, because I think that they could be the least related to creatine, due to the specificity.
Good job on the project!
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I have a feeling /have read in various places that fingerboarding progress/finger strength is culmative long term, so my training block in March this year will go towards improving my finger strength for this most recent training block, and so on and on into the long term. Seems a bit counterintuitive - I wonder what the 'half-life' for tendon strength is?!
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I was referring to this actually. Two weeks aren't much, and teamed with some weight loss or better eating regimen and more structured training, it's natural to have sudden gains as you said.
The key factor is to make this adaptive gains become permanent.
The quicker they came, the quicker they'll go.
Don't want to diss your achievements, was just curious. It turned out that you were asking yourself the same questions!
Keep up the good work.
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I'm pretty anti-sugar too, and I never ever touch alcohol. I guess I eat a ton of fruit which as a lot sugar, but its mainly frozen berries which arent too bad as fruits go (tho I eat a lot of them).
So yesterday I ate. Man this is embarrassing:
Breakfast:
1 myprotein scoop of oats
1 myprotein scoop of why isolate (sugar free)
2 tablespoons chia seeds
Sprinkling of pumpkin/sunflower seeds
Lunch:
Big can of chickpeas
350g blueberries, frozen. Man im weird, but i fuckin love them
Before training: Protein flapjack with 2g of sugar in it (300cal)
After: Protein flapjack with 2g of sugar in it (300cal)
Dinner:
Few raw carrots, pack of green beans, pack of broccoli
2x 60p tins of mackerel in brine
500g of mixed frozen berries with some natural yoghurt on
Pre bed:
Scoop of whey
Doesnt seem outrageous to me? Its funny, im heavy as fuck, but im also quite ripped (for me)
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In most houses there's a room which is specifically dedicated to preparing food, to avoid living on canned/frozen/precooked food. This room is called "kitchen". Don't you have one in your house?
;)
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In most houses there's a room which is specifically dedicated to preparing food, to avoid living on canned/frozen/precooked food. This room is called "kitchen". Don't you have one in your house?
;)
Me mother's dead and I dont have a girlfriend
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I'm pretty anti-sugar too, and I never ever touch alcohol. I guess I eat a ton of fruit which as a lot sugar, but its mainly frozen berries which arent too bad as fruits go (tho I eat a lot of them).
So yesterday I ate. Man this is embarrassing:
Breakfast:
1 myprotein scoop of oats
1 myprotein scoop of why isolate (sugar free)
2 tablespoons chia seeds
Sprinkling of pumpkin/sunflower seeds
Lunch:
Big can of chickpeas
350g blueberries, frozen. Man im weird, but i fuckin love them
Before training: Protein flapjack with 2g of sugar in it (300cal)
After: Protein flapjack with 2g of sugar in it (300cal)
Dinner:
Few raw carrots, pack of green beans, pack of broccoli
2x 60p tins of mackerel in brine
500g of mixed frozen berries with some natural yoghurt on
Pre bed:
Scoop of whey
Doesnt seem outrageous to me? Its funny, im heavy as fuck, but im also quite ripped (for me)
I hope you are climbing 8B now! As that diet seems very oppressive.
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yeah ive done a few 8Bs now
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Are you a vegetarian 39? If not, probably good to get some lean meet in there as opposed to powdered alternatives.
Do you put anything with those chickpeas? Spices, onions, herbs, etc? Same questions for your veggies? I used to eat a pretty boring diet, so I'm used to boring food but not sure how long I could sustain that sort of diet.
Edit* I'd also have a look into pre/post workout nutrition as they seem off to me.
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No not veggie, that was just a sample day where I had fish.
Really? I thought protein flapjack, which has oats and whey in it was quite a good thing for before and after 'training' (ie. the period when I went down the wall and pissed around for 1.5hrs)
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I could be wrong but my understanding would be that you should be eating something high in carbs 2-3 hours before training, straight before is not really necessary. Protein and fat will slow down digestion (those flapjacks seem high in both) and ideally you want the stomach quite empty.
During training, I think they recommend something like 50g of carbs/hour.
Post-workout, I'd say something fast digesting, high in carbs, perhaps a little protein within 30 mins. Then a normally balanced meal, reasonably hi gi carbs to absorb faster.
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Kind of sounds like minutiae to me? Im not short of energy and im only training for bouldering. Im sure there are many good alternatives, but they're very convenient and I bought a load cheap.
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Yeh, I suppose. I'd personally be worrying about consuming 600kcal of flapjack within 2 hours but I put on weight quite quickly.
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and I never ever touch alcohol.
No wonder you are such miserable git. :icon_beerchug:
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I don't personally see the point in giving a flying fuck about whether it's a large quantity of shit or a large quantity of high quality organic ingredients (Nibile is italian?, so I think healthy means boiling the shit out of vegetables and then frying them... Italian is obvs. the prime cuisine of the planet, fuck that french variations-on-gravy-shit, but the traditional starter-pasta-meat/fish-desert meal is not exactly low in calorific content :) ), to a first order it's the quantity of calories that counts.
I was going to comment that I stay svelte through genetics, and that surely there are a lot of calories in 350g of blueberries, but then I realised on reflection that there are only about 200 calories max in 350g of blueberries, and that mostly, my weight stays down through not eating.
Mostly I can't be fucked eating breakfast. During the week it's a cup of coffee. Then I hit lunch at 12, proper square meal. If I go and waste time making my DIP joints sore down the wall, then I'll usually not eat dinner either - maybe a pot noodle and a protein shake (and latterly, some creatine) and a can of stella before bed if I'm lucky. On non-training days I do eat a second proper meal in the evening, so two squares a day.
I don't know how genetics can play a factor - is one genetically predisposed to absorb less fat in the gut? Don't start telling me skinny people run a higher metabolism - what, so their body temperature is higher or something? Or they sit there fidgetting? Never understood that one.
So basically, I think you do whatever works for you, if you get heavier, eat less. If you need to gain weight, eat more. Whatever. 8B = 8B innit. We should all copy 39, although not sure at 36 my DIPs can take 8B.
...
...
Now back on topic... weight gain with creatine. How does this actually work? I did a quick google, failed to find any SCIENCE, other than it "drags water in with it". Er, well, so does glycogen, so does that mean we should stop eating carbs too because if we deplete the carb stores we'll weigh less? Is it a comparable factor? Etc.? How does a different protocol for loading with creatine mean that somehow you don't gain weight yet still get the benefit of larger creatine stores? Not getting it...
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I am speechless.
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Your nation's gelatos are excellent, take heart.
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Don't worry, was only kidding, except for the bit about the vegetables.
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Vegtables aside, the old bodybuilders' adage "A calory is a calory", to which you seem to refer, has been proven wrong.
Nutrient partitioning plays a big role in sport nutrition, so different foods have different effects and same foods have different effects depending on when they're consumed.
It was just this.
But now I think that your whole post was a joke and I am confused.
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But now I think that your whole post was a joke and I am confused.
Its probably due to eating all those boiled vegetables.
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Vegtables aside, the old bodybuilders' adage "A calory is a calory", to which you seem to refer, has been proven wrong.
Nutrient partitioning plays a big role in sport nutrition, so different foods have different effects and same foods have different effects depending on when they're consumed.
It was just this.
But now I think that your whole post was a joke and I am confused.
No, the whole post wasn't a joke. Only the bit about italian cuisine. Sorry for the confusion.
I don't disagree that some calories are different from others. However, I do - strongly - think that there's little point worrying about what type of calories you are taking in BEFORE worrying about how many. Too many people worry about how healthy their diet is, in terms of processed food etc., whilst ignoring the fact that they simply eat too much.
In order of importance, I would go with
* quantity
* food group balance (protein, fat, carbs)
* supplementation with extra vitamins, creatine?, etc. that you cannot get from your easily available food in the quantities appropriate
* ... whether your food came from a can or not
Are you saying that ordering is wrong?
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Depends on what your goal is. If I'm in training-hard-not-dieting mode I'm basically caring about recovery, so quality of calories counts for more than quantity - I'd rather be eating 3500 calories with loads of good nutrients than 3000 calories of crappyness
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What if your goal's to be a fat cunt?
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I'd rather be eating 3500 calories with loads of good nutrients than 3000 calories of crappyness
Who wouldn't?
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So basically, I think you do whatever works for you, if you get heavier, eat less. If you need to gain weight, eat more. Whatever. 8B = 8B innit. We should all copy 39, although not sure at 36 my DIPs can take 8B.
..
It may not be strictly true about the 8Bs, but hell, if Ellis doesnt have to prove it then why should I?
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So what happens to those extra 500 calories a day?
Even though there is a certain amount of bollocks in "1lb of fat = 3,500 calories", it's mostly in the error bars, not the fundamentals, so we may as well keep it for sake of argument, as otherwise we'll just end up arguing about the mass (haha) of the problem.
500 calories a day = 3500 extra calories a week = 1lb of flabby bastard weight gain a week - that you need to yo-yo off again later, ricky hatton stylee. Which is clearly not a good idea.
What am I missing?
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Lund,
I agree that some people just eat too much, but it's important to know whether this "too much" comes from fat, carbs or proteins, because each one has different effects. Also related to the time of the day (insulin sensitivity, cortisol and testosterone levels, etc.), at least according to what I've read.
It's quite hard to get fat with an excess of lean proteins, for example. What could make you fat is the amount of fat that you eat with them (think greasy meat).
Anyway, didn't want to drag the discussion off topic.
Sorry.
Edit: hadn't read the reply. The same applies to eating too little. It depends whether the 500 cals less are from fat, carbs or proteins.
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I find it easier to cycle weight up and down than hold it - I like to go on trips at a weight that I'd struggle to hold constantly
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Ahahahah, exactly my opposite. I want to keep my weight always constant.
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The topic's been dragged off into the bushes of every topic going, I'm expecting it to veer into a discussion of the labour party leaership contest.
Lund I agree with your ordering in general:
* quantity
* food group balance (protein, fat, carbs)
* supplementation with extra vitamins, creatine?
* ... whether your food came from a can or not
But if we're going to look at eating as a means of giving marginal gains for performance (what I believe), in those simple terms I'd want to optimise each section and tailor each as and when I see a benefit:
(I know you know all this)
*Quantity - tailored to energy demand/output. High at times, low at times and a baseline average to remain a constant weight. (this is what overweight people just can't get a handle on, and refined sugar appears to be a chief culprit in knocking out of skew our energy balance without us self-adjusting)
*Food group balance - tailored to needs. i.e. High intensity training = xyz grams of protein immediately after, with simple carbs. Low intensity long duration training = more emphasis on carb replenishment.
*Supplementation with extra vitamins, creatine? - Cycles through the year according to demands i.e. prior to and during Strength & Power training phases. Cycle off for routing. Zinc and omega 3 etc. etc. etc. if high intensity training or even very long duration low intensity/long road trips/expeds.
* ... whether your food came from a can or not - agree this should come last. But if you can afford to choose I'd choose the highest quality and least refined food in the belief of long term health benefits, and marginal gains, including placebo.
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Lund,
I agree that some people just eat too much, but it's important to know whether this "too much" comes from fat, carbs or proteins, because each one has different effects. Also related to the time of the day (insulin sensitivity, cortisol and testosterone levels, etc.), at least according to what I've read.
It's quite hard to get fat with an excess of lean proteins, for example. What could make you fat is the amount of fat that you eat with them (think greasy meat).
Anyway, didn't want to drag the discussion off topic.
Sorry.
Edit: hadn't read the reply. The same applies to eating too little. It depends whether the 500 cals less are from fat, carbs or proteins.
I'm not convinced by this Nibs as in places where people mainly live on meat, there would be no fat people. :-\
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Lund,
I agree that some people just eat too much, but it's important to know whether this "too much" comes from fat, carbs or proteins, because each one has different effects. Also related to the time of the day (insulin sensitivity, cortisol and testosterone levels, etc.), at least according to what I've read.
It's quite hard to get fat with an excess of lean proteins, for example. What could make you fat is the amount of fat that you eat with them (think greasy meat).
Anyway, didn't want to drag the discussion off topic.
Sorry.
Edit: hadn't read the reply. The same applies to eating too little. It depends whether the 500 cals less are from fat, carbs or proteins.
I'm not convinced by this Nibs as in places where people mainly live on meat, there would be no fat people. :-\
Like Texas - or Rotherham?
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Lund,
I agree that some people just eat too much, but it's important to know whether this "too much" comes from fat, carbs or proteins, because each one has different effects. Also related to the time of the day (insulin sensitivity, cortisol and testosterone levels, etc.), at least according to what I've read.
It's quite hard to get fat with an excess of lean proteins, for example. What could make you fat is the amount of fat that you eat with them (think greasy meat).
Anyway, didn't want to drag the discussion off topic.
Sorry.
Edit: hadn't read the reply. The same applies to eating too little. It depends whether the 500 cals less are from fat, carbs or proteins.
I'm not convinced by this Nibs as in places where people mainly live on meat, there would be no fat people. :-\
Like Texas - or Rotherham?
The idea that excess protein doesn't make you fat is simply not true.
Your liver is far to clever for that. In fact, most (?) proteins produce fat as well as amino acids as part of the process. Excess protein certainly gets converted.
All protein gets broken down to amino acids, glucose and lipids.
At the level of marginal gains, it might be important. Most of us kid ourselves as to the relevance of this to our own amateur athlete existence. Most I said. :-)
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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instead of fucking around around with supplements that have dubious benefits
go to thailand,walk into any chemist and buy supplements that have no doubts on their effectiveness.