UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: a dense loner on November 29, 2015, 02:08:15 pm
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Can the person going round sika-ing holds at Roche Abbey please stop doing it. It's obviously someone who's a decent climber trying to make the problems harder.
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Lots of stuff at impossible roof has been buggered recently and looks sika'ed up.... The 7c (name has something to do with cats) now seems impossible.....
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Looks like more stuff has been done. The start too the 8c thingy has been half filled in.
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Mike mentioned this the other week, said something like it being mountain bikers who didn't like climbers clearing up their campfire spot or something like that. So apparently not climbers.
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Can anything be done to clean the stuff off?
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That sounds like a weird and hard to do sort of revenge! Why not just smash some holds off??
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Im gonna burn their campfires in an act of revenge...
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So polish Dabe just told me about this last night and sent me a link to this thread. I am absolutely gutted about this!!! I have put so much of my life into that buttress and the climbs there. It was bad enough that the 7c+ into the black got done a few months ago. Now it seems someone has targeted Setendipity. The starting edges and crucial edge just under the roof have been filled in. I ran there in my lunch break to have a look for myself the damage done to Serendipity. It been done very recently and with a textured epoxy resin. It still hadn't quite gone off yet. I tried to scrape at it with a key and I was making an impact, but this was not easy. I do not know it it would be possible to chip the epoxy out of both of these climbs. I have no experience with that? I would be up for trying to do something but I have very little time in my life arm. Also it seems this has been done at night and there are signs of a fresh fire right underneath, as if it it was done by fire light.
Who this is I have absolutely no idea. Every hold that had been targeted, could have been smashed off a lot more easily and cheaply with a rock or hammer. The Resin work is sloppy, but in a way, carefully done. There is none on the floor or surrounding rock. It could be a gamekeeper as I've been challenged before climbing at night on the light. Maybe they are fed up? That's a guess though. It could be a climber that hates the place or me?. I really have no idea. If we could find out who it was and why, we could do something to address the issue. As it is I would expect more is going to get done.
I am so angry about this if I ever catch who it is, heaven help me!!!'
Mike A
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If it is an act of vengance then i assume they are targetting chalked holds within reach of the floor... Its a bit hypocritical being annoyed at night climbing if they are using campfires to see what they are doing... Can sika be filed or use a dremmel?
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Yes and no. The high good hold on into the Black is not really within easy reach and was done. The undercut on Serendipity/Serenity has been left and is easy to get to. None of this makes any sense. That's the worse thing about it all!!!!
I would have though it was worth having a go with a small hammer and chisel, being really careful I thing you could get back to the rock. I doubt the Rock was prepared properly. So fingers crossed it hasn't bonded well with the rock surface. Until you try I suppose you don't know. As soon as possible would be best for serendipity as it not quite gone off yet. I'm unsure about chiselling the stuff out and the damage if done wrong or badly, could completely wreck the problem. I cared less with into the black, but Serendipitg is very close to my heart and I still had a project based around it.
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Purhaps Dense's comment is the closest about a decent climber trying to make the problems harder. Although that's crazy they're hard enough. Also the filled in holds on the 7c+ do not have chalk on them, like someone has tried to do it. kike I said it just doesn't make sense.
I think someone should try and do something about it though. We left Into the Black in fear it might escalate. Maybe all we did was show then this approach works? I really think more will get done and I suspect Apache Static would be next. Maybe showing that we would sort it out anyway would put them of. I'm totally desperate and out of ideas frankly?
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Could you install a trail camera to catch the perps? They have night vision and are activated by movement.
Something like this - http://www.amazon.co.uk/VWTECH%C2%AE-Infrared-Trail-Hunting-Camera/dp/B00O9THPTC/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1454336437&sr=8-7&keywords=bushnell+trail+camera
Would have to be hidden though, or secured at the top of the crag.
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Sounds bizarre.
I reckon a dremel (something like this)
https://www.howetools.co.uk/dremel-8200-1-35-f0138200jb-10-8v-multi-tool?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=CNLD_7j21soCFYPnwgodGoQFgg
with the appropriate wire brush bit or file would be your best bet.
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You know I'm always right Dolph, just takes everyone else a while to catch up ;)
People are strange
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I wasnt aware the good hold had been filled on into the black, i just saw the starting gaston. You cant be that experienced a climber and think its cool to fill in holds. Im not bery familiar with the hold on serendipity so wouldnt want to make matters worse... Unless no one else lives close? (I live 15 to 20 mins away)
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Think ill get a dremmel and chisel off my dad and go have a look. If it isnt coming off easy ill leave it... Be there about half 7 tomorow night...
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Rob in the BMC office has just told me about this - I'm totally gutted for those of you who are passionate about these problems, what an absolute pisser!
Careful work with a Dremel may be worth a go. Depending on the resin used, it may also be possible to carefully heat it and remove it as it goes rubbery - this is one of the ways you can extract resin bolts. I've never tried it though and I think doing a few test runs first on some non-climbable rock would be a good idea to see if it works.
I think we can do something to publicise this as well so if it is a climber, they realise how wrong this is and stop asap. :(
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I spoke with Rob about this to get some advice. We are going to put a small sign up, explaining that it is wrong and if anyone has an issue with regards climbing on this buttress to contact the BMC. That was the best we could come up with to try to reach out to a non climber who might have a problem.
That's great Dan info. I think the attitude of most people is to try to do something to restore the climbs. I heartbreaking that they will probably never be the same. I am willing to help out with this. Does anyone have any objects to trying?
Also any ideas to try to reach a climber, if it is one would be good. Also if people do go there and see something, or have seen, something suspicious please let us know.
This is an obvious first and nothing like this has been encountered before so unfortunately we are in new ground.
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UKclimbing and also the nearest walls might not be a bad place to start.
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Well im heading up tonight to see if it comes off easy. Ill post up
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Well im heading up tonight to see if it comes off easy. Ill post up
Hi.
Would be super keen to travel over with you/lend a hand if possible. I haven't been for years, but used to rave about it back in the day. Keen to go back. Sounds labour intensive, but necessary, if it can be saved.
Seems to be some mention of petrol working if it's not fully cured.
Have PM'ed you anyway. Nether Edge.
Dave.
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Good luck with it Dave.
Anyone else from this side of town fancy heading over, PM me.
Dave T.
Nether Edge.
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Nice signs dolph.... So after an hour i tink ive fully cleaned the crimp rail on serendipity using a hammer and chisel and a wire brush. Didnt damage any rock but i may need to go back with a gentler and smaller brush to finish cleaning it. I started on the foot ledges below and got them mostly clean. Left because i heard loud noises and light coming from near he road (it was pitch black raining and scary) gonna head back friday with more kit to finish the job better in the day....
The glue was hard on the surface but very brittle under that and came away easy.... Was scared of breaking the crimp rail so took me ages to clean that. The glue on the foot holds sounded hollow so it deffinetely hasnt taken hold very well....
Will have to take ladders as im a short arse to reach anythibg higher
Would be brilliant if anyone could join me friday day. Pm me and ill send you my number....
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Also had an epiphany, ill never climb 8b+
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Neither will Dolph, he's filled it all in trying to impress new comers to the crag :o
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Fuck off Dense! I'm not in the mood, not about this.
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Nice one Mason!!! It sounds like you've made a great start! I very busy up to Friday this week. My wife is working until late and I have to do all the sorting out of our kids. I'm heading there tomorrow with Dan to have a good look around with him. It's just a flying visit as I have to pick the kids up at 5:30.
I'm really beginning to think that this might be a game keeper, I got challenged once by someone who accused me of poaching and said that he had to check cars out park on the lane at night. He took my reg. It could be night climbing that is the problem. Hopefully he'll see the signs and get in touch with the BMC if it is.
On Friday if your heading back I will join you. Just pm me. It is probably best if someone who knows the climb/s and the holds is there.
Thanks for getting stuck in.
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Shit job dolph
Edit. Late dick comment.
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Shit job dolph
What's a shit Job?
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That was a reference to denses comment by the way sorry! Ill pm you. I never realised but you can directly see the farm house from the crag. They must beanle to see every flicker of a torch.... I saw their ligts going on and off in their house as i jumped with fear at every noise....
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Yeah let's hope it's something like that and we can sort out a sensible arrangement to keep them happy.
For the first time since seeing getting the photos from Polish Dave (who went out of his way to put the signs up today btw). I'm actually starting to feel hopeful about sorting all this.
Yeah let's get stuck in of Friday. It's certainly no place to be on your own in the Dark.
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I almost chickened out doing any work incase it made matters with the perp worse and rang the bmc but he didnt answer. Im worried if they are that annoyed they will smash the shit out of anything theh see instead
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Oh Christ I hope not. At least with a crap fill in job at least there's hope!
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I'm chatting with Dawid now, who has been there a lot at night and he is mentioning stuff which is making me think even more that climbing there at night is possibly upsetting people. I really think people should stop climbing there at night for now. Until we find out.
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Nice one Mason!!! It sounds like you've made a great start! I very busy up to Friday this week. My wife is working until late and I have to do all the sorting out of our kids. I'm heading there tomorrow with Dan to have a good look around with him. It's just a flying visit as I have to pick the kids up at 5:30.
I'm really beginning to think that this might be a game keeper, I got challenged once by someone who accused me of poaching and said that he had to check cars out park on the lane at night. He took my reg. It could be night climbing that is the problem. Hopefully he'll see the signs and get in touch with the BMC if it is.
On Friday if your heading back I will join you. Just pm me. It is probably best if someone who knows the climb/s and the holds is there.
Thanks for getting stuck in.
I think I remember this game keeper, big dog Sky didn't get on with
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It's just weird that the holds have been filled in gradually. It started in the summer. The perp must have filled some and slowly filled in more as we carried on visiting or they got stronger and needed less holds. If it's the farm owner is it worth approaching him???
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Yes it's all just weired. I'm not sure when Into the Black was actually done. I don't think it was done over time. After spending so much time there last winter I been staying away. Serendipity was done in one hit for sure, as other people where going there that I know off.
I really don't think it's a climber. There is a project hard line just right of Into the Black, which would now be the only way to the jug. That challenge was there.
I'm going to talk things through tomorrow and see what the BMC guys think. Maybe one of them, representing an official body would be best place to go and have a chat?
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Do we still clear the rest of the holds before we find who it is? In hindsight sorting access first may have been the wise approach... I pm you
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Well yes except that whatever this is it still hasn't fully cured yet. I hope the cold damp weather is slowing it down. I think time is of the essence personally.
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Possibly but also its a shit job...
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If poaching is one of the concerns and the BMC do manage to start a dialogue with landowners/gamepkeer, one thing that might help the locals look more favourably on climbers is the fact that at other venues climber presence has discouraged undesirable characters from frequenting the area. Just a thought.
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Who is so desperate for free meat they hang around near a sewerage centre near maltby... Is it not obvious we would rather pointlessly fall of lumps of stone than chase their sky rats... Coy and paste them that in an email... Thatll solve the problem
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What do you mean late dick comment? Are you referring to my joke which would have been taken seriously by no one with an IQ over 70
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Oh and to be honest I've never agreed with climbing in the dark in sensitive areas, or climbing in banned areas. Spoils it for everyone except the selfish person there doing the climbing. Maybe that's for another thread tho
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My comment was after someone elses
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Let's stay on topic. Dense makes jokes that's what he does, normally he does it well. I was just feeling a bit raw about this topic. Sorry.
Oh and to be honest I've never agreed with climbing in the dark in sensitive areas, or climbing in banned areas. Spoils it for everyone except the selfish person there doing the climbing. Maybe that's for another thread tho
I think this is an important point. Night climbing at places like Anston Stones and Roche Abbey I don't think is a great idea. Access is improving in these areas and to a lot of folks Climbing at night with lights is classed as the same kind of nuisense behaviour as fire lighting etc.
With impossible roof, I never thought this was in a sensitive areas. Clearly though it's probably contributing to the problem. I never realised how visable it is. This should stop!
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Oh and to be honest I've never agreed with climbing in the dark in sensitive areas, or climbing in banned areas. Spoils it for everyone except the selfish person there doing the climbing. Maybe that's for another thread tho
I agree about night climbing at banned venues but not the other bit. Where a crag is beyond hope of improved access (I'm chiefly thinking eatswood here and believe me every possible effort has been made to change the owner's mind) who are you spoiling it for by climbing there? Would it be better if everyone had done as they were told and nobody had set foot there in forty years? Who except for one miserable wanker would have benefitted? Where are these examples of obstinate small minded misers suddenly having a change of heart due to nobody visiting there precious crag for years? On the contrary, in my experience antisocial misanthropes tend to be very pleased when you abide by their wishes and are hardly likely to suddenly decide they feel giving and sociable just because you've done so.
There are instances where a ban seems negotiable and the owner is not a closed book and there are instances where one can safely file a crag under 'lost cause'. In the latter case the only way of achieving any kind of access is by going to the crag. A blanket statement that people should not go to banned crags, at all, ever, is misguided, defeatist and in many cases contrary to the advice of the BMC access team.
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Who are you spoiling it for by going to places like eatswood? Quite simply everybody else. If you, not you per se, write on a thread on the interweb telling how to park at these banned places, how to get there etc then people who read this who have issues at their local favourite banned crag will start doing the same, ad infinitum. Then it's not a leap of faith for anyone who doesn't like climbers to visit a climbing site and find out about all the goings on in their back yard. You're so voracious about eatswood since it's a favourite area of yours where you've done a lot of problems, as Mike is with
So for me the best approach would be to not publicise these areas, don't claim them on 8a.bannedcragidontgiveafuck.com. Other people have different ideas tho
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Make your mind up, do you object to people going to banned crags like you said, or to people talking about it on the internet? Did you mean what you said or not?
Who are you spoiling it for by going to... eatswood? Quite simply everyone else.
What?! If nobody is allowed by you to go then they aren't going to be climbing at eatswood ever, i.e. any change to the ban has zero effect on them, because they are never going to go there!
There's a point to be made about making sensitive info in posts on banned crags more difficult for non climbers to find easily, but this is a totally separate issue.
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I agreed with Denses night climbing comment really. However I agree with Bonjoy about it not always being as simple as staying away from banned crags. Everyone has stayed away from Stone Mill and as far as I'm aware nothing has changed or ever will. It's very difficult to know what to do for the best though. Best advice has to be if in doubt, don't I suppose? This is an interesting debate, but for another topic perhaps?
With regards to the resin job at Impossible having looked at this today. I was really impressed with the work Dave has done so far. I really think Serendipity can be restored. In to the Black may be slightly harder, but I remain hopeful about this as well. We are going to go back on Friday and do some more.
Who and why this was done remains a mystery. The best guess is a disgruntled land owner or near by resident. There are Lilly to be two reasons for this:
The first is without doubt, night climbing. In the winter the crag is very visible from the house on the hill and the road. So please do not do this at this crag until we know for certain.
Second is parking at the very top of the hill opposite the path along the top. It has been witnessed that this can cause problems for cars coming up the hill meeting cars going down, as it's fairly blind. The lay-by at the top is a pull in. It is also narrow here and has caused problems for the farm machinery and Lorrys going to the sewage works. Please either park at the bottom, or further back towards the road at the top.
I'm not great with all this forum, social media stuff. So I would appreciate it if you would pass this on to anyone who goes there.
Thanks.
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i don't agree with it Jon, my point was if you're one of the people that doesn't care about access issues and you want to climb there you will but not posting about climbing there all over the net would be an obvious starting point from my pov.
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Depends what you mean by 'care about access issues'. Most of the access we have now was only won by sustained responsible trespass convincing the landowner they might as well have a formal agreement and some control. But if you think we should all doff our caps to the landowner and respect their wishes however unreasonable that's fine. I'm not sure that approach ever won any access though. The big problem nowadays is fear of liability. You just can't convince landowners they wouldn't be liable.
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Mods - should this be spit from the sika thread??
The access problem is very common in the caving world (generally down to the unfounded myths about liability) and far far more areas/sites are subject to bans, or formal access arrangements (often with a small fee payable). Many of the venues around castleton require to you knock on the farmers door and pay a couple of quid 'Trespass Fee'. The current politics surrounding the CRoW act and access to caves across the country makes the EU in/out referendum politics pale into insignificance.
I've always marveled at how lucky as climbers we are to have incredible levels of freedom and access to the vast majority of crags.
Like anything in life, its not a black and white issue and every case should be taken on its own merit.
You'd be surprised how far a nice bottle of plonk to the land owner at chistmas goes with retaining good relations and our caving club has a list of various farmers around the peak that we organise a bottle for at christmas.
Dense is right that by going to (or 'pirating' as its called in the caving world) banned venues, you risk spoiling any future potential access for the masses.
Lovejoy is right by that by going to banned venues, you potentially create a status quo of access, by dispelling myths about what access means for the land owner, or by a few dedicated protagonists, striking up a relationship and thrashing out a resolution.
There's a few cases in the caving world I could mention in the peak where by the old grumpy land owner has recently moved on, sold up, died or some such and the new owner has been very welcoming of cavers, sometimes wanting to organise someone to take them on a trip to see whats under their land!
If we'd all stayed away, never to have gone there 'because it was banned' we'd never have known about the change of land owner and their views on access.
As always, the answer it to remain reasonable, polite, listen to the landowners and try and work it out. If they say no, they say no, and if you're still hellbent on going there, do it subtly and dont get caught!
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Sound then Johnny I'll just go where I want when I want then. Can't wait for the bird restrictions to come back to stanage when I'll go and spend my time shitting in the nests.
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Back on topic, it seems a rather calm and collected attrition against climbers. Wouldn't it just be easier for someone to hack the holds off or spray paint the crag? (This is not a suggestion btw). It just seems a very minor way in the grand scheme of things to piss people off. They could have put resin in every hold upto head height without too much bother :shrug:
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Can't wait for the bird restrictions to come back to stanage when I'll go and spend my time shitting in the nests.
you could spray on social media about how you are doing something that no-one else is doing
that's what all the cool people do
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Mumra they kind of have... im worried they will hammer the holds...
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Mumra they kind of have... im worried they will hammer the holds...
Idiots. Need their fingers breaking
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Gonna lay rat traps on the floor with white lightening as bait. Sould be effective in rotherham
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The access problem is very common in the caving world
Dense is right that by going to (or 'pirating' as its called in the caving world) banned venues, you risk spoiling any future potential access for the masses.
Caving access is at least twenty-five years behind climbing, so I'm not sure how useful a comparison is. It's about to be proved legally that the last fifteen years you've been avoiding or paying for many caves you had a legal right to access.
Banned climbing venues in the Peak fall broadly into two types: those where the conservation value has been deemed too important, and those where a landowner doesn't like the idea.
In the first type, despite the ban, we have a good dialogue with the owner/ land manager and the issue is typically broader than the single venue. All the conservation bodies own several crags, and decisions are not down to the whims of individuals. There are no decent crags where we've agreed a ban, but a load of crap ones where it buys us goodwill elsewhere. And of course bird bans are limited in time and extent and demonstrate a good relationship, and as a rule should be adhered to (the odd ones are excessive).
At the ones owned by single landowners, they fall into those where a ban seems reasonable (crags that are basically in poeple's gardens), and those where it doesn't. Of those, they've all refused to budge in their position. Despite bottles of whisky, assurances as to their non-liability, all repeated. In many cases where access is uncertain it is better not to ask and get an official refusal than leave the situation as is. This idea that capitulating to a ban will somehow make the owner more likely to agree access is out of touch with reality. They are not interested in rewarding good behaviour. They are interested in getting rid of you. Avoiding a banned crag only reinforces the idea that an access issue will disappear if the landowner says no.
Access is only ever won by demonstrating a ongoing history of responsible access. That means low-key and well behaved. If you don't know what that means, for starters no dogs, no litter, no noise, no lights, no knocking down walls, no drilling, no damage to vegetation, no shitting.
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Caving access is at least twenty-five years behind climbing
I think thats a little dis-ingenuous. It just so happens that the vast majority of grit climbing in the peak is on land with access already thanks to Benny Rothman et al. And much of the limestone climbing, Stoney, Wye valley, Raven Tor etc lies in areas where access has never been an issue. Obviously Water Cum Jolly has had its issues, but the fact that the riverside footpath was extremely popular with walkers and not just climbers has made it hard to exclude climbers.
It's about to be proved legally that the last fifteen years you've been avoiding or paying for many caves you had a legal right to access.
I suspect your thinking of caves on CRoW land (mainly affects the Dales) and I'm not sure its something that is close to being resolved legally, if you know different, PM me - I'm all ears.
The Swallets around Perryfoot and Eldon Hill and much of the bradwell and stoney catchments are on tenant farmers land with no history of open access.
Anyway - we digress.
Cant disagree with following the common sense low key approach.
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Sorry, re-reading that it does come across a bit harsh. But when the CRoW act came in it from my perspective it does seem the cavers dropped the ball spectacularly.
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Just to update on (Sika or whatever it was?), this has now been carefully removed and all climbs are back climbable. fortunatly this had not been done that well in the first place and came away very easily. I just hope that the signs work and whoever is doing this contacts the BMC, rather than hammering the holds off, or does it again.
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Well done guys!
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Swear to god if some one hammers the holds now ill find them
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excellent work guys
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:thumbsup:
glad it was 'restorable'
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There was a large fireplace which had recently seen a fire under impossible roof yesterday, plus someone had torn down the BMC signs and thrown them down the bank.
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Were the signs knackered or could you put them back in place?
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The one taped to a tree couldn't be replaced due to us having no tape and the one which was possibly attached to a board couldn't be replaced due to the board having been snapped and it was also damp and starting to rot.
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There's a large chalked flat edge on the ground that has come off near the start of one of the problems on the right side of the roof. I think it is from Into the Black, but I'm not sure exactly where the lines go around this section of the roof. I was here yesterday and didn't notice it but it might have been there then.
It doesn't look crucial but I've left it behind the block on the right in case someone more qualified than me wants to put it back on.
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a hold came off Into The Black a few years ago, did it look like the one pictured in this thread? https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,28179
It was originally left behind the block on the right of the buttress and I'm not sure it was ever put back on.
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a hold came off Into The Black a few years ago, did it look like the one pictured in this thread? https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,28179
It was originally left behind the block on the right of the buttress and I'm not sure it was ever put back on.
came off by itself did it? #fatboy :tease:
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http://imgur.com/a/Y80Qe2u (http://imgur.com/a/Y80Qe2u)
Hopefully the image works.
The hold and where it came from are circled in red.
Do you still have the video of you on it? I would be interested to see how the problem is climbed. It looks like there is a huge gap before the good hold on the lip. Maybe the hold that broke before never got put back on and that's why the gap looks so big?
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ah that's a different hold to the one I was referring to. The one I pulled off was the first hold Joe goes to with his left hand in this viddy at 11 seconds.
https://vimeo.com/166934487
It looked like it had already been glued on once and, if I remember correctly, it left a pretty noticeable scar in the roof.
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Doesn't look like the new break is going to change anything, it's lower than where he starts. I had assumed it started lower but I don't think a low start would add any difficulty.
I don't remember seeing a hold where the old one came off. I'll look closer next time I'm there now I know where to look.