UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: kc on May 08, 2014, 07:05:08 pm
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So following on from a previous thread about bolts on Peak Limestone where there was a general feeling that the need to bring the areas bolts up to modern standards was no longer necessary and most annoyingly the weird persons would be risking litigation.
If anybody is interested here is a list of some of the routes that need attention. No doubt there are many more.
You only need to ask and all the kit will be provided.
Raven tor
Remove and relocate a shockingly badly placed bolt on a route right of indecent.
There is a dodgy bolt or two around Mecca extension/Kaaba junction.
Top section of Tin of + move lower off above break.
Obscene\ toilet lower off needs replacing.
The replacement of all the bolts and lower off on Call of Nature is not of immediate concern but they are made of substandard materials so will need doing sooner or later.
The only worthwhile route right of here to do is Mortal Combat.
There are a few old bolts/studs to remove on Hot Flushing’s and Hooligan.
Rubicon
There is a lot of tiding up to do here and there is a case for placing/replacing discreet lower offs on some of the trad routes. Apparently they are quite good and having top roped them all I would consider the damage caused by cleaning the top outs unjustifiable. Gardening the top outs would need to be done regularly with the added danger of falling debris onto a busy footpath.
New discreet Belay points for the following routes are worth considering.
Jezebel, jaws, Piranha, White Bait, Millers Tail
The collection of routes that finish up Dragon Flight currently rely on a single bolt.
As for sport routes there is Too Old/Bold, Last but not least, Bastard and the rubbish to the right of Rubicon roof.
Moat Buttress
Two Sheep to Leicester and Searching For the Yeti. That is if the latter is still possible.
Crunch Buttress
Mission impossible
Karma Killer belay
Agent Provocateur
Perfecto
Trainer Tamer
WCJ Cornice
The dole
Ape index
Yorkshire 8b mix of rubbish
The weakling (some)
Brachiation Dance
Free Monster (better lower off arrangement)
Superfly
Eclipsed
Glue machine
Sirius
Atilla the Hun
Dale cornice
There are 7 routes to do left of Taylor Made namely the power trip routes, but rarely come into condition.
Nemesis couple of bolts
Malcolm X
A few on roof warrior and cry of despair
Poppy Fields lose bolt in odd position
Armistice Day bolts all in wrong place
Big zipper and bored bolts are a bit random and as it is so popular could really do with the full resin treatment. Clarion too?
42
Butterflies
Think that’s it here??
Nook
All sorts??
Nettle Buttress
Not too familiar with this but Stung is particully bad.
Two-Tier Buttress
Dodgy lower off on reboot
Stogumber Club
Why Me
Orange Sunshine
Start of Minos and bolt out left on Aberration
Buster
Lightweight
7 pounds
Long Wall
First bolt on Kiss hardy now out of reach. The joint lower offs above this are quite poor
Moldwarp wall
Balancing act/trick show have lost their belay.
Breathless.
Embankment
Don't know but there will be something here.
Beginner’s wall
Let’s get Physical and a load of old bolts to chop.
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Hi Kris
I was at Rubicon last week armed with drill, BP bolts and resin. I was going to do Too Old and the lower off on Dragon Flight. However, conditions were too good and I ran out of time :-[ .
I will be back shortly to do them. If I can get a supply of BP bolts from BMC, I will do more.
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Excellent! Whatever and whenever you need it you can come and get it.
As you know glue is a perishable item and will need topping up soon. Apparently the PBF is very low so extra donations will be needed to buy glue for all the bolts we got.
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Nice work on the list Kristian.
The BMC have got a decent drill and set of kit for bolting which I can keep at my gaff in Sheffield. I'm happy to loan this out for short periods if this helps get stuff done.
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I'm keen to help out. Can I come and shadow someone when they are next bolting? I've placed rawbolts but never glue-ins. Would be happy to lend a hand and learn the way and point me at some suitable reading material, data sheets specs etc.
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I don't know when anyone will be out next bolting, but for all the info look no further than this
http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm (http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm)
and
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/anchor-report-published-by-technical-committee (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/anchor-report-published-by-technical-committee)
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Peak Bolt Fund donation link?
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Peak Bolt Fund donation link?
Fill your boots (http://www.ukboltfund.org/)
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'Too old to be bold' now has 3 new resin BP bolts. Need to strip the old gear and replace the belay.
Will get round to do doing the Dragonflight belay and the bolt on Jezebel too. ..and Tribes... and and and....
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Good effort. Does TOTBB still have that runout to the belay at the top?
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Yes it does and i was thinking that you could deck out if a hold broke as you were clipping the belay. (Not entirely unfeasible).
I've been debating with myself whether to
a: stick an extra bolt in
b: move the lower off to the break as per dangerous brothers.
c: leave as is.
I was leaning towards c. It adds a little frisson to the vdiff finish.
Thoughts?
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Its rubbish climbing up a wide crack isnt it ? IIRC
My view would be to put the lower off at the break - that's where the climbing really ends.
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Its rubbish climbing up a wide crack isnt it ? IIRC
My view would be to put the lower off at the break - that's where the climbing really ends.
I agree.
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Its rubbish climbing up a wide crack isnt it ? IIRC
My view would be to put the lower off at the break - that's where the climbing really ends.
My view would be to leave it as is. Maybe it's slightly alarmist to post the following:
Accept bolts, and more will appear nearby. Give me an example where this hasn't happened - I have had enough private conversations with pro-bolters to know that what they would like to see is american-style 'trad-lite' with bolted belays and lower-offs, and scary-but-safe tamed runouts. They won't admit to that on here, but it's already happened on most of our limestone, and is creeping on to grit through the quarries.
and it may be scrappy, it may be crappy but we ARE in the UK. Does every point of difference in every sport route in the UK have to be removed/tamed? Run-out routes at Malham, high first bolts at Kilnsey, War Memorial etc. etc.
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Its rubbish climbing up a wide crack isnt it ? IIRC
My view would be to put the lower off at the break - that's where the climbing really ends.
My view would be to leave it as is. Maybe it's slightly alarmist to post the following:
Accept bolts, and more will appear nearby. Give me an example where this hasn't happened - I have had enough private conversations with pro-bolters to know that what they would like to see is american-style 'trad-lite' with bolted belays and lower-offs, and scary-but-safe tamed runouts. They won't admit to that on here, but it's already happened on most of our limestone, and is creeping on to grit through the quarries.
and it may be scrappy, it may be crappy but we ARE in the UK. Does every point of difference in every sport route in the UK have to be removed/tamed? Run-out routes at Malham, high first bolts at Kilnsey, War Memorial etc. etc.
I agree with the gist of what you're saying but I think the problem in this case is that the route is so short it falls into the "hit the ground if you fall off" territory. It might be easy climbing but it's crap quality rock.
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My view would be to leave it as is. Maybe it's slightly alarmist to post the following:
Accept bolts, and more will appear nearby. Give me an example where this hasn't happened - I have had enough private conversations with pro-bolters to know that what they would like to see is american-style 'trad-lite' with bolted belays and lower-offs, and scary-but-safe tamed runouts. They won't admit to that on here, but it's already happened on most of our limestone, and is creeping on to grit through the quarries.
Whoever said that either has a very narrow view of who is a pro bolter or hasn't met very many. I've bolted routes and been involved in a bolt fund and this is far from my position. Doubt it's your's either.
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;D :tumble:
not entirely (I came over a little too UKC), but this is:
My view would be to leave it as is...
and it may be scrappy, it may be crappy but we ARE in the UK. Does every point of difference in every sport route in the UK have to be removed/tamed? Run-out routes at Malham, high first bolts at Kilnsey, War Memorial etc. etc.
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As stated earlier. . I was leaning towards "leave it as it is" anyway. . So thats what I'll do.
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;D :tumble:
not entirely (I came over a little too UKC), but this is:
My view would be to leave it as is...
and it may be scrappy, it may be crappy but we ARE in the UK. Does every point of difference in every sport route in the UK have to be removed/tamed? Run-out routes at Malham, high first bolts at Kilnsey, War Memorial etc. etc.
It really pissed me off when some cheesewhip put an extra bolt in the top of The Thumb/Urgent Action.
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I'd say either leave as is, or stick an extra bolt in. But I'm guessing the reason for the lack of a bolt there in the first place suggests the rock isn't good enough, or wasn't judged to be in the 1980s. Maybe today with a deep glue-in it would be fine.
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The rock is fine. .. I reckon its far more likely that an eighties dole cheque would only stretch to 3 hangers not 4.
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I'd say either leave as is, or stick an extra bolt in.
I hear theres a spare one at Millstone. :clown:
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Too Old to be Bold E5 6b 1987.
Mark would not wast time or money trying to protect VS ground especially if it could be easily clipped from the E4 Coot just right.
I used to try and maintain the feel of routes and respect the style of the FA within reason, however people have still gone an added extra kit to routes like Sardine and Body Machine.
Anyway well done Sam, at least someone is getting their hands dirty.
If you need any kit or an angle grinder you know where I am.
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Accept bolts, and more will appear nearby. Give me an example where this hasn't happened - I have had enough private conversations with pro-bolters to know that what they would like to see is american-style 'trad-lite' with bolted belays and lower-offs, and scary-but-safe tamed runouts. They won't admit to that on here, but it's already happened on most of our limestone, and is creeping on to grit through the quarries.
Whoever said that either has a very narrow view of who is a pro bolter or hasn't met very many. I've bolted routes and been involved in a bolt fund and this is far from my position. Doubt it's your's either.
My quote, taken rather out of context - from the thread about the lower-off at Millstone. 'Pro-bolter', meaning those who would place such a thing. Koscis, who proposed the lower-off, writes lower in the thread about how nice it would be to have lower-offs on mountain crags.
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Apologies, I typed words to that effect but deleted them, instead replacing them with a ;D
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Old kit removed from TOTBB and 3 resins put in on Tribes. rop bolt on the roof of tribe is stainless and good so didn't bother replacing that one. need to remove the old bolts from tribe now. Couldn't get up to the belay ledge to replace the belays so that needs doing.
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Anyone got any thoughts about replacing the bolt in Jezabel. I thought if I had a rope down Dragon Flight to replace the belay on that, I could do the bolt on Jezabel at the same time.
I know hardly anyone ever does some of these routes ever. If they do, do they just highball to the break above pads.
Should the old manky bolt(s - there are two - just one without a hanger) be removed and the route left as a highball. much like piranha - white bait etc.
Or should decent loweroffs be placed on all these routes so they can be done to the top by those that wish, without the need to thrash up through the undergrowth to top out.
Thoughts ??
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I didn't know there was a bolt belay on Dragonflight - there didn't used to be. If so makes sense that there's one on Jezebal as well and in general I would say that the upper walls should have lower offs as they get overgrown and dirty pretty quickly and usually the decent climbing is on the lower half of the routes.
Also when I attempted to clean Millers Tale a while back I noticed there was a peg or bolt belay in the upper wall that could do with replacing. Be great if you cleaned that up (no retro bolts on the route though please).
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Agree its a good deed to replace the belay on Dragonflight as it has been in there since around 91 when Jim Kelly installed it.
Replacing Jezebel bolt is not a bad idea either.
On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.
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On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.
Depends, are they covered in this thread (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,23922.0.html)?
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On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.
The topos are on Gibson's site. Can you be specific about which bolts on which routes interfere
http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm (http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm)
I recall Neil Foster has passed comment on some of the new bolts interfering with existing routes at one of the previous Peak Area meets and was considering whether to remove them.
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Another vote for replacing the Jez bolt and Dragonflight lower off. If you have a spare 12mm hangar+nut the first one on Salar needs replacing (currently missing).
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Another vote for replacing the Jez bolt and Dragonflight lower off. If you have a spare 12mm hangar+nut the first one on Salar needs replacing (currently missing).
Can do - Are they stainless.. if not - I might get round to replacing with resins. Isn't the belay some weird 1 bolt and a peg arrangement.
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If you have a spare 12mm hangar+nut the first one on Salar needs replacing (currently missing).
The first bolt was a 10mm SSteel that was high up above the faint break. If there is a 12mm stud below then that is new. The belay bolts are spaced apart as one was above the original direct finish 8a+ and the newer one is above the easy lefthand finish 7c+/8a?
I would put a new pair somewhere in between so both can be worked on top rope.
The routes to the right may have a bolt and peg arrangement for the belays. This may have already been altered. Not sure?
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It was stainless but I could be wrong about it being 12mm, best bring both if you can.
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Got a 12 and 10 hangers but no stainless nuts.. kris? Have you.
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loads or if you are going to sort the belay take one from there. It will be 10mm.
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The maillon on it is tiny and will need an adjustable spanner to remove. Could do with swapping for something bigger.
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Just to be clear - I'm not suggesting we retro anything at rubicon walls.
I'm just replacing bolts and belays at the moment.
There is a question mark as to whether or not to put some loweroffs at the top of some of the routes. things like jezabel. Topping out at Rubicon I imagine is a deeply unpleasant experience and with a popular footpath below, seems like a sensible idea to me.
This is not an Eastern Grit crag ;)
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I climbed Jezebel, Kingfisher, A Miller's Tale etc a few years back. They were all really good. The top sections were pretty dirty and I don't really remember the belays being that inspiring - sorting the belays out would be great. Can't remember much about the state of the gear on the routes - don't think it felt too gnarly but I can't see an issue with replacing any existing bolts. Might be worth taking a long clipstick to reach the belays from the break?
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As mentioned before.
Nettle Buttress
Not too familiar with this but Stung is particularly bad.
This has see a fair bit traffic recently and I am surprised that so many seem not to notice or care.
It would be great for you to help sort some stuff out as we are all equipped and ready to go.
But will you join the queue of all the others that have said the same thing???
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Posted in wrong bit. Stupid thing.
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kc I guess you meant to reply to my post.
I do care, they look shit, so I'd love to learn how to bolt and re-equip them, i'll ask around those who know. For now you can just add me to the queue as the proof is in the pudding.
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But will you join the queue of all the others that have said the same thing???
I've meant to get in touch for a while kc, I'd like to help but I'd need to be shown how.
If you, or someone else, is able I've got the time to help.
Hi Guy, were you with Mal last night? If so :wave:, I should've introduced myself.
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KC, I've got a box of glue and spare nozzles to drop round if you are about on Friday.
If there are 2 or 3 people interested, who are keen and are really going to get involved and do some rebolting, I could do a quick workshop one evening. It's better me doing it in BMC time than zapping any of KC's remaining enthusiasm. :)
If you are keen pm me and I'll fire off a Doodle link to set up a date. Will go to Horseshoe as we own it and it's quick to get to from Sheff.
I'll need to get my drill back first though, it's still on loan.
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I'd be happy to turn up and lend a hand dan if its on a monday or tuesday (or friday eve) - include me on a doodle.
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I could bring a drill and a pull-tester if I'm free and it would help...
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OK, as there seems to be some interest, let's do an evening workshop.
Venue: Horseshoe Quarry
Time: 6pm to 9pm, followed by a quick BMC funded pint and de-brief in the Moon Inn
Kit to bring: any bolting gear, drills you have, pull tester if you can bring it JB, scruffy clothes. Gloves and eye protection if you have it, will provide anything you don't have.
Sign up using the Doodle link http://doodle.com/ipqf2qgxqc589kk6 (http://doodle.com/ipqf2qgxqc589kk6)
I'll post which date we go for once I've had a few responses.
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OK, as there seems to be some interest, let's do an evening workshop.
Venue: Horseshoe Quarry
Time: 6pm to 9pm, followed by a quick BMC funded pint and de-brief in the Moon Inn
Kit to bring: any bolting gear, drills you have, pull tester if you can bring it JB, scruffy clothes. Gloves and eye protection if you have it, will provide anything you don't have.
Sign up using the Doodle link http://doodle.com/ipqf2qgxqc589kk6 (http://doodle.com/ipqf2qgxqc589kk6)
I'll post which date we go for once I've had a few responses.
Cheers Dan!
Hi Guy, were you with Mal last night? If so :wave:, I should've introduced myself.
Hi Iain, yes I was, good to meet you
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Thanks Dan, I've put in times.
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Hi All,
Based on replies, the workshop is set for Wednesday 16th July at Horseshoe. See you all there from 6pm onwards.
It may be worth doing a bit of lift sharing to stop filling the parking spots/save money/be green. I can give one spot in my van from Sheffield if needed, pm me if interested.
Sam, to save messing about, just bring the BMC drill with you, just make sure both batteries are fully charged, cheers.
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Friendly reminder that this is happening in a weeks time. See you there.
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Is it too late to express an interest in attending this Dan?
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Please feel free to turn up - it will be pretty informal. Grimer is coming to provide comedy value (although I think it's the free pint afterwards that he's really after)
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I'll try and be there Dan. If not, I'll get the drill to you before then.
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I'll bring my drill and any PBF gear I have.
Kristian howaboutyou draw up a rota for (say) for each person that goes (but doesn't have a drill) to have the drill for (say) 3 weeks with a list of routes to rebolt before passing on to the next person
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This is assuming anything will get done. I will hold my breath on that one. Been there before.
I would rather the kit is brought back to base camp after each excursion unless someone is really going for it.
Anyway an update on the list. Anyone wish to add?
Raven tor
Remove and relocate a shockingly badly placed bolt on a route right of indecent.
There is a dodgy bolt or two around Mecca extension/Kaaba junction.
Top section of Tin of + move lower off above break.
Obscene\ toilet lower off needs replacing.
The replacement of all the bolts and lower off on Call of Nature is not of immediate concern but they are made of substandard materials so will need doing sooner or later.
The only worthwhile route right of here to do is Mortal Combat.
There are a few old bolts/studs to remove on Hot Flushing’s and Hooligan.
Rubicon
There is a lot of tiding up to do here and there is a case for placing/replacing discreet lower offs on some of the trad routes. Apparently they are quite good and having top roped them all I would consider the damage caused by cleaning the top outs unjustifiable. Gardening the top outs would need to be done regularly with the added danger of falling debris onto a busy footpath.
New discreet Belay points for the following routes are worth considering.
Jezebel, jaws, Piranha, White Bait, Millers Tail
The collection of routes that finish up Dragon Flight currently rely on a single bolt.
As for sport routes there is Too Old/Bold, Tribes, Last but not least, Bastard and the rubbish to the right of Rubicon roof.
Moat Buttress
Two Sheep to Leicester and Searching For the Yeti. That is if the latter is still possible.
Crunch Buttress
Mission impossible
Karma Killer belay
Agent Provocateur
Perfecto
Trainer Tamer
WCJ Cornice
The dole
Ape index
Yorkshire 8b mix of rubbish
The weakling (some)
Brachiation Dance
Free Monster (better lower off arrangement)
Superfly
Eclipsed
Glue machine
Sirius
Atilla the Hun
Dale cornice
There are 7 routes to do left of Taylor Made namely the power trip routes, but rarely come into condition.
Nemesis couple of bolts
Malcolm X
A few on roof warrior and cry of despair
Poppy Fields lose bolt in odd position
Armistice Day bolts all in wrong place
Big zipper and bored bolts are a bit random and as it is so popular could really do with the full resin treatment. Clarion too?
42
Butterflies
Think that’s it here?? Too Pumpy For Grumpy has got 2 lumps of rust. Not sure which way to make it finish to avoid the blocky finish? Greendale has an unsatisfactory lower off position.
Nook
All sorts?? Life in the old log
Bit of Nookey
Storm
and old bolt removal from Lockless & Theora.
Nettle Buttress
Not too familiar with this but Stung is particully bad.
Two-Tier Buttress
Dodgy lower off on reboot
Stogumber Club
Why Me
Orange Sunshine
Start of Minos and bolt out left on Aberration
Buster
Lightweight
7 pounds
Long Wall
First bolt on Kiss hardy now out of reach. The joint lower offs above this are quite poor
Moldwarp wall
Balancing act/trick show have lost their belay.
Breathless.
Embankment
Don't know but there will be something here.
Stone The Loach and Arachonothera amongst others
Beginner’s wall
Let’s get Physical and a load of old bolts to chop. Lets Get Fossilized is done but not the direct
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Barbarosity at WCJ Cornice has a single bolt/biner lower-off. It's a bad combination as the biner traps your rope against the rock and with all of the drag it's a royal PITA. I'm pretty sure a small chain affair would hang free but maybe it's a bit visible when the trees aren't there?
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Moat Buttress
Two Sheep to Leicester and Searching For the Yeti. That is if the latter is still possible.
Does this mean you/someone has bolted these or discovered that they are/aren't possible?
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This is assuming anything will get done. I will hold my breath on that one. Been there before.
I would rather the kit is brought back to base camp after each excursion unless someone is really going for it.
Rebolting work isn't the best way to spend a day/evening but arranging to pick up the gear and return it each time makes it more onerous. People are willing in a general sense and having some structure /organisation in the form of a rota could harness that. Your commitment to the cause is commendable but this is potentially a way that you can spread the load with the less hardcore and committed (like me).
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Moat Buttress
Two Sheep to Leicester and Searching For the Yeti. That is if the latter is still possible.
Does this mean you/someone has bolted these or discovered that they are/aren't possible?
I top-roped Yeti recently and can confirm that it still works as a route despite hold loss. Two very bouldery sections with a good rest in the middle. A lot of effort for a 7b+
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This is assuming anything will get done. I will hold my breath on that one. Been there before.
I would rather the kit is brought back to base camp after each excursion unless someone is really going for it.
Rebolting work isn't the best way to spend a day/evening but arranging to pick up the gear and return it each time makes it more onerous. People are willing in a general sense and having some structure /organisation in the form of a rota could harness that. Your commitment to the cause is commendable but this is potentially a way that you can spread the load with the less hardcore and committed (like me).
Whatever!
My main concern is the drill. These things seem to have a tendency to break when out of my sight. It's never been the same since the last workshop. An expensive bit of kit that could wipe out the entire PBF balance in an instant.
I would suggest 18mm drill bits (17mm better but harder to source) for setting the final inch of PB bolts as it's doing the drill no good opening the end out. You will know what I mean when you have a go.
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Kris - When you say the "the drill" I assume its a different one to the BMC one, which I have in my possession and its in mint condition.
DCA use the hilti tri jet drill bits - http://cdn.toolstation.com/images/130125-UK/images/library/stock/webbig/46800.jpg (http://cdn.toolstation.com/images/130125-UK/images/library/stock/webbig/46800.jpg)
expensive but by god do they mince into the limestone. Its like drilling cheese, which of course saves on battery power and general wear and tear on the drill.
I still find it hard to believe that the BMC doesn't have a central fund for stuff like this and that it remains the remit of a dedicated few to dip their hands into their pockets and part with their hard earned for the benefit of the greater climing community. I'm mean forgive my french, but feck me, how much BMC cash is being pushed towards the idealogical purchase of Blencathra.
[/rant]
sorry - off topic.
I might try and do the belays of Tribe/TOTBB/Caviar this weekend, or monday night. Then I can give the drill back feeling like I've finished the job.
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It's the PBF drill. Power and drill bits are not the issue here with regard to PB bolts.
As you know they start to flare an inch before the eye and no two bolts are the same. It takes time and trigger control to ream out the last inch to get the thing to seat well. It is this jiggling that seems to strain the controls and chuck. According to PB web site the flare helps hold the bolt in on steep rock after a firm whack home. In reality most placements aren't that steep and its a pain getting the thing out for a final clean or more jiggling.
My main problem of course being a perfectionists, they tend look like ornaments set in place forever, even if the routes aren't.
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Totally agree kris, they are a pain and I I think I suffer from that ailment a bit too.
The dca 'prescribed' method is to switch to an 8mm bit to cut a little channel vertically down from the main hole (and over into it a bit, for the flare and the back edge of the bolt to sit into. This gives a considerable strength advantage if sideways or twisting loads are likely (much more likely in caving situations). However, this does seem to alleviate the issue with the flare. I've found it nigh on impossible sometimes to 'whack' it home, especially when its got resin oozing out too. I try to avoid reaming with the drill bits, i.e. using the sides of the drill bit, its def. bad for the chuck and bearings on the drill. instead I try to drill in at an angle at the edges of the hole vertically up and then vertically down to widen out the hole in a vertical direction. It is faffy though.
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Yes and that's how I finish it off myself. Works well with the "Fixe" as it is only the eye that needs seating, especially given the 2mm extra gap around the shaft.
The "BP" tends to get stuck (depending on how tightly that bolt has been twisted) an inch back. By increasing the diameter of the first inch to 17/18mm all that is left to do is slot the eye.
I suspect there are some that just drill the whole thing at 18mm.
Not quite sure how that effects the untwisting camming action that is part of the design?
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We use the bolt product (BP) bolts on NW lime - mostly the smaller 12mm (double 6mm twisted rod) design. Cue 'they're too small' from clueless resident bozo's / cue 'minimal visual impact, marine grade stainless, 37Kn(!) and 12 mm hole versus 16mm hole' from me.
The same issue with tight fit exists when placing the 12mm twisted leg as the 16mm - I've always found this is easily overcome with a few solid hits with a hammer; then they always sit flush. The trouble with doing that is people who are lazy/don't give a fuck about their own work/don't know just hit the bolts with the steel head of a hammer and 6 months later in our salty environment you have a bolt with a rust spot on its eye caused by the reaction of the dissimilar mild steel from the hammer head becoming embedded in the stainless steel of the bolt's eye during twatting.
All that's needed for a proper job is to twat the bolts flush with the hammer while covering the eye of the bolts with a little bit of wood or thick rag to prevent mixing the two steels. Most bolts can be hit flush just using the plastic/rubber handle of a hammer, a few stubborn ones require the full treatment with the steel hammer head and bit of protective wood/thick rag.
Larger holes/reaming out, I never ream a slot for the eye to sit in - see here from the BP webpage:
Recessing Bolt Heads
'Some companies tell you to do this as well as bolting "experts" however it takes time, wears the drill bit and may weaken the placement in some kinds of rock. With a well designed bolt there are no advantages but one big disadvantage- recessing the head will prevent it being cut off at a later date and removal with a core drill'.
except when I don't have the correct size drill bit for placing DMM eco's (require an 18mm bit, recently lost mine and only have a 17mm).
I never drill a larger hole either, I drill a 12mm hole for the little ones and 16mm for the larger ones:
Again from BP's webpage:
Glue Line-or better described by some authorities as Critical Glue Mass, is often overlooked but is very important (I have tried to simplify this to make it easier to understand).
Epoxies and esters are exothermic, that is they require heat to cure and therefore they rely on the fact that they can raise their temperature (normally to ca 65°c) faster than this heat is conducted away by their surroundings. Placing a relatively large metal bar in the glue is obviously not the ideal situation as it will conduct the heat away and prevent full cure, for this reason most manufacturers call for a hole 2mm larger than the object to allow a thick enough glue line or glue mass and therefore an adequate heat build up and cure. Interestingly this effect was also discovered in the early 80´s in the timber industy and they also recommend a 1mm glue line when embedding metel fasteners.
A problem is then to ensure the glued object is in the centre of the hole, commercially this is done by various methods, the most obvious is the perforated plastic sleeve often supplied with chemical fasteners for hollow blocks but impractical for our purposes. Another way is to supply the glue in a glass cartridge which is designed to break up and act as a spacer/filler, a third way is to give the bolt a shape in which parts of the bolt are large enough to centralise while the rest is left for the glue, typically this is the approach used by Bühler bolts and by the newest Hilti chemical anchors. The illustration of the Petzl bolt above shows this clearly, the neck of the shaft is larger than the rest, they are also supplied with glass ampoules.
We have sufficient glue mass in the twist of the legs on our bolts and do not require a smaller hole to be drilled.
I take it that Jim wrote a typo in that final sentence and he means 'larger hole', not 'smaller'.
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This reminds me - The bolts on Theoria are stainless but have non stainless washers which are corroding badly already. The washers need ideally replacing with stainless or just removing. The belay also needs something to lower off (the chain is small and the krab looks dodgy and is on the bad bolt end of the chain).
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People are willing in a general sense and having some structure /organisation in the form of a rota could harness that.
I would definitely benefit from this, if only because being held to account for specific routes in a specific timeframe will be more likely to make me get off my arse and do it. It would be good at least to agree among the participants next week which routes we intend to sort out.
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Well there are two camps with regard to recessing the bolt heads then. I have read Jim's web site many a time but there are pros to recessing as well.
Directional pulls as Sam has already said and aesthetics. A well seated bolt blends in to the rock far better, which is very important here in the peak.
Bolt removal with a core drill is a fantasy that may work on a test bed but not in the real world swinging around on a rope.
Will life or climbing as we know it still exist by the time a well placed PB bolt expires? Except for punters misusing lower offs etc!
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Ha yeah I agree about the lifespan.. Minimal visual - the 12mm's are almost invisible ;) (I know you've pull-tested and don't like them cos they bend).
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I think there great. Used one at the Tor where the air gets thin. I would however reserve them for compact rock and off crux sections on popular routes.
In the Peak all two foot of the choss is a crux move!
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Went trad climbing at Stoney yesterday, rather disappointed with the unnecessary proliferation of bolts since the last time I did these routes.
The tat on the trees above Dead Banana/ Bitterfingers has been replaced with a triple 'P' bolt lower-off. Total overkill in my opinion and appears to have been placed by someone inexperienced - bolts sticking miles out, and why the third bolt? Why any bolts in fact? What's wrong with tat on the trees?
The handline to approach the left routes on Garage buttress is rigged on new bolts which replace the old thread belay below Helicon, Gerremdown etc. This is rigged on alloy caving hangers with steel bolts, and judging by the dust underneath quite freshly installed. Given that these hangers are both weaker (15kN vs 25kN), more expensive (£3.50 vs £2) and shorter lived, I can only assume they were chosen to allow the bolter to use 8mm bolts instead of 10 or 12mm. Which presumably are cheaper and saved his drill bit. The handline is then badly rigged only illustrating the rigger doesn't understand what Bunny knots are for. I would have sorted this but the maillons needed a spanner. All quite irritating given there is a perfectly adequate thread two feet away and good natural gear placements.
Given these were the only areas I accessed I daresay there is plenty more of this bullshit to discover. If folk insist on drilling the crap out of crags that did perfectly well without bolts for fifty (million) years at least do a decent job.
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Given these were the only areas I accessed I daresay there is plenty more of this bullshit to discover.
Yep
Northerners can't climb ** E5 6a
This climb is in 2 logbooks, and on no wishlists.
Has been retrobolted presumably by mistake and even had a new name proposed. Grade is about 7a. Pumped out trying to clip the last bolt which seems in the totally wrong place. Next go I just missed it out completely - its harder to clip than to just do the moves. Looks like it might have been quite pokey as a trad route (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=261235)
This route is on a clean bit of rock BTW and looked like it could be climbed without cleaning when I walked under it last year. The bolting of routes further right made total sense but not this. Its a Paul Mitchell route. He is going to go apeshit.
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I had a walk under Stoney West a few weeks back - having assumed due to the in situ cars in the layby these last two years that it had been retro-bolted. Surprised in fact that there were a few trad routes left. I wouldn't say I was overjoyed but it was at least a genuinely neglected crag.
Having done some research the Froth/ Bitterfingers lower off was placed by Ian Carr. Apparently the general subject was debated at an area meet in Glossop (raised by Ian, I didn't attend), but there is no record in the minutes of anything specific such as a lower off here, just the normal 'like-for-like' fluff lest an unspecified fantasy E2 become E5 when the 'crucial' pegs go. In fact the only specific case mentioned is Kellogg, which having done five times in the last few years I can assure folk does not 'rely on pegs' nor does it need them replacing with bolts. I like Ian but I don't believe Stoney in the main needs saving from unpopularity, let alone in this manner.
In response to your comment on the other thread, the 'backward' Peak area comment came from Koscis, in reference to Wilton and other Lancs quarries where selected retro-ing and lower-offs had been mandated at a BMC area meet... though that has since blown up in their face with Phil Kelly resigning his membership of the BMC etc, and I believe many of the bolts are now being chopped.
I'm sure Paul will go apeshit, he has every right....
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A bolted lower off at the top of bitterfingers, WTF. The tree abseil or walk round and down the terraces above wee doris always seemed fine to me, and an essential part of the trad climbing experience. I'm not sure where this is going but it seems like a bit of a poke in the eye to peak limestone trad climbing. I can't believe the BMC thought it was a good idea? :chair: In the same league as the bolt at Millstone.
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The BMC didn't think it was a good idea. As far as I can gather this has not been mandated by anyone other than the perp.
Whilst on the subject, worth noting that the BMC exists as a representative body, not a governing body (with some recent exceptions on comps I think). So if 'the BMC' think something is a good idea, it should and usually does mean interested local climbers have voted on the issue in a democratic manner.
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Fair enough, I guess I just assumed it had been discussed and then acted on based upon the democratic process you describe.
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Perhaps the phantom millstone anglegrinder fairy will pay stoney a visit.
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In response to your comment on the other thread, the 'backward' Peak area comment came from Koscis, in reference to Wilton and other Lancs quarries where selected retro-ing and lower-offs had been mandated at a BMC area meet... though that has since blown up in their face with Phil Kelly resigning his membership of the BMC etc, and I believe many of the bolts are now being chopped.
Have you been talking to Phil? ;)
Retro-ing was only for bolts to replace pegs in water courses. Where trad gear is now possible, pegs are to be removed. Lower offs will be placed at specific parts of Lester Mill and Anglezarke.
"Blown up in their face"? Phil wasn't happy with the decision, so is complaining. It was a democratically voted decision. Phil's complaints have caused some discussion on facebook.
The only bolts being chopped are those in the lower-off on one route at Wilton 1, that have been placed with no BMC agreement. This has nothing to do with the lower-offs agreed at the meeing. As far as I'm aware, none of these have even been placed yet.
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Robin
You have completely missed the point. I was not only unhappy at the decision, but the way the decision was arrived at, and a whole range of other factors which were not discussed at the meeting.
One of these factors was sufficient to see the resignation of the NW area chair, as you will be aware.
All this of course in reference to placing bolt lower offs at a venue which has been proud to be an almost totally traditional venue for decades and which, now it is owned by the BMC, is in the first throes of being brought to its knees in the name of climbing.
To me, that's shit.
In future, please don't make assumptions about my actions. Speak to me first.
Phil
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The tat on the trees above Dead Banana/ Bitterfingers has been replaced with a triple 'P' bolt lower-off. Total overkill in my opinion and appears to have been placed by someone inexperienced - bolts sticking miles out, and why the third bolt? Why any bolts in fact? What's wrong with tat on the trees?
The handline to approach the left routes on Garage buttress is rigged on new bolts which replace the old thread belay below Helicon, Gerremdown etc. This is rigged on alloy caving hangers with steel bolts, and judging by the dust underneath quite freshly installed. Given that these hangers are both weaker (15kN vs 25kN), more expensive (£3.50 vs £2) and shorter lived, I can only assume they were chosen to allow the bolter to use 8mm bolts instead of 10 or 12mm. Which presumably are cheaper and saved his drill bit. The handline is then badly rigged only illustrating the rigger doesn't understand what Bunny knots are for. I would have sorted this but the maillons needed a spanner. All quite irritating given there is a perfectly adequate thread two feet away and good natural gear placements.
This just sounds like a total clusterfuck.
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Don't see the point in all these bolts at stoney when there's plenty needs doing at intake quarry? Several anchors need a second bolt on the takeaway wall. Understandably there's higher priorities as these are 8m of f6 climbing in a banned location. (Would the latter exclude it from the PBF or BMC drill rota thingy?) but still, the condition of the lower offs probably make's the risk of an accident higher :whistle:
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Robin
You have completely missed the point. I was not only unhappy at the decision, but the way the decision was arrived at, and a whole range of other factors which were not discussed at the meeting.
One of these factors was sufficient to see the resignation of the NW area chair, as you will be aware.
All this of course in reference to placing bolt lower offs at a venue which has been proud to be an almost totally traditional venue for decades and which, now it is owned by the BMC, is in the first throes of being brought to its knees in the name of climbing.
To me, that's shit.
In future, please don't make assumptions about my actions. Speak to me first.
Phil
Sorry Phil, I was trying to be concise and objective about the situation. I am aware you have other grievances but what I said was my best attempt to convey the gist in a straightforward way. Perhaps I failed.
At the very least, I hope I cleared up a few misconceptions about retro-bolting and bolt chopping.
It is a shame Nick has resigned, I thought he was doing a good job.
However, this thread isn't about Lancashire and I don't think anyone except you and me want to argue about it. I don't really either - it just seemed that a false narrative of events had somehow evolved, and I made the foolish error of trying to straighten out the story. Doh.
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We discovered the bolts at the top of dead banana and bitterfingers a couple of months back. Hadn't been up for a couple of years before that so not sure how 'new' they are or aren't.
One thing I will say is that I thought the two trees up there now both look pretty knackered and in my opinion the 'traditional' descent of abbing off them is now unacceptable and dangerous. So if the bolts are chopped, its important to ensure that people know a path exists (via the new guide if nothing else). I think a lot of people ab because they think it's the only way.
I thought the bolts were unnecessary but to be fair they are at least well hidden - you can't see them until right on top of them. Personal view is that now they are there, for now they are best left alone.
Agree about the poor configuration of the rigged rope on garsge. I hadn't been to those routes before so didn't realise it was new.
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the new guide
:lol:
I guess that might see the light of day in a few years.
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:offtopic:
This thread got split before into "Retro bolting of Peak Trad".
It was about technical and organisational issue regarding the Peak Bolt Fund which has nothing to do with the issues being discussed here. No PBF drills or bolts will be used for this kind of thing unless requested for assess and conservation.
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Now split. Beat me to it Sam well done!
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Sorry, my mistake. Perhaps someone could rename the threads so it is clearer which is which. Though fwiw I'm not sure any bolt thread will ever be entirely free from ethical concerns...
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Keeping the thread back on topic, final reminder that the workshop is tomorrow at 6pm, Horseshoe. Looking forward to seeing some of you. Adam, are you planning to come and bring your bolt tester, if not I will bring the BMC one (it's not as portable though!)
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I'll be there, see you tomorrow.
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Yes I will bring our pull tester.
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Great to see so many of you turn up for the workshop! Thanks for coming, now get out there whilst the psyche is there :)
KC is making sure that the PBF have glue etc to go with the bolts, and the list of what needs doing is up on the other thread http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24464.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24464.0.html). As KC suggested, best to look at routes in your grade range, and even better that you are familiar with.
If you need any kit like a drill, blower and brushes and the PBF stuff is already out, you can loan the BMC kit from me via this site.
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Abracadabseil's angle grinder is also available to borrow, free for good causes, be assured applications will be treated in the strictest confidence.
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Yep, thanks for coming Adam and showing the other side of the coin. Long live the Phantom de-Retrobolter :ang:
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Props to Dan, Kris, Adam and all those that turned up. Was a good evening and good to see some psyche !! Lets convert that into some action and see some of the things on the list sorted out! :great:
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Thanks all, was very useful. :beer2:
I've got a big comfy harness if anyone wants to borrow it, maybe it could stay with the PBF kit
I look forward to getting stuck in and sorting some routes out
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Was indeed very useful, thanks all.
To the other Ian, drop me a pm if you want to head back to Toys.