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the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: fatneck on March 19, 2020, 11:04:36 am

Title: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fatneck on March 19, 2020, 11:04:36 am
Planning to climb tomorrow and may get out Saturday.

Keen to be able to climb if someone on the household gets sick and we are self isolating. I also have the option of going fishing within walking distance of my house.

Obviously if we go out climbing, we will be super careful (I'm a shitbag normally anyway).

What are people's thoughts?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 19, 2020, 11:13:22 am
Change thread title to "doing stuff"?

I think if you can go climbing somewhere nearby that is low risk, you should. likewise running, cycling, fishing or whatever. It is important for mental and physical health, especially for those of us with issues. Need exercise, mental stimulation, sunshine. You might be including the kids soon!

I'm going to stash a pad on the coast along with a pair of shoes and can run there in about 10 minutes from home. It's a lowball traverse, with an OK approach.

1) Be safe - no sketchy MTBing, no long runs in the hills, no even remotely dangerous climbs; lowball, sport climb, toprope.
2) Don't climb near other people, or where other people may have climbed in the last 12(24?) hours.
3) Don't travel any further than necessary
4) Keep a low profile. Anything you share or talk about might encourage others.
4) If you can do it in a nice place which improves your mindset, and has positive associations.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 19, 2020, 11:22:29 am
Like Chris said. Also the remoter and wilder the better.

Sun shine - UV will likely zotz virus well!

Though some suggestion that it may quite like chalk (research shows some bacteria does..)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy W on March 19, 2020, 11:25:59 am
It's definitely a no-no here in France now. I did think I might head out bouldering which just about fits the government criteria, ie alone, exercise, but I was never sure if I could justify a half hour drive as near home. The police are on the roads stopping people, it all seems a bit selfish to think about climbing/bouldering currently.

The lock down we have is probably going to get more sever soon. Good luck with the UK I hope the gov there gets it act together and gives some clear messages soon.

I'm lucky I have my own board, feel for the people in the cities and towns.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 19, 2020, 11:44:35 am
Whatever the feeling is on here, the government might force our hand soon and outlaw things.

We're going to have to do something until told otherwise. If nurseries are shutting and you have a 2 year old (:guilty:) then staying indoors is a bit of a non-option.

We're currently driving to Ilkley Moor for a walk. Wide open spaces where we can avoid close contact with others should be ok for now? Brimham will be on the cards, and we're going to Harewood tomorrow to enjoy the gardens.

I'm fortunate in that I live close to lots of climbing that is good quality but is almost never used. I suspect I'll be revisiting some of these places over the next few months (unless outlawed of course).

Driving to the crag is going to need to be very sedate. And obviously no highballing.

I ordered some new holds for the board last night!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on March 19, 2020, 11:47:04 am
My post on the Peak District Climbing FB group:

Quote
Good morning all. With wall closures and other restrictions there might be more desire to seek "individual exercise" via Peak District climbing. I'm not going to make any judgement or have any discussion about the merits of doing so, but please consider adhering the best you can to the principles of social distancing and hygiene:

Avoid popular and honeypot crags, if there are significant numbers of people move on to somewhere else, explore off-piste and quiet areas to maintain social distance, consider travelling separately, always take hand gel or a flask of hot water and soap with you, maintain a sensible distance from belayer and spotter, and of course don't go out if you or any of your co-residents have any symptoms.

Now is not the time to be huddling under Remergence roof, queuing for Flying Buttress or having a big group meet at Horseshoe. Go explore and go quiet.

It might also be worth considering the difference between outdoor activity during general covid restrictions, and outdoor activity when you are either infected or living with an infected person.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 19, 2020, 11:57:12 am
Some interesting commentary on the radio this morning - about how in the UK we police mainly by consent - no national ID cards, no local and federal police.

Implied that a full on France/Spain style lockdown might not be necessary if handled right. I hope so.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 19, 2020, 12:07:22 pm
What people need to understand it is that it is important that young healthy individuals should be the among the first in line to self isolate. They are the most likely to carry the virus asymptomatically — they feel fine and not feel personally particularly threaten by the situation and therefore see no idea of being careful about not touching surfaces, constantly keeping a 5 ft distance from others, washing hands all the time etc — and are most likely to spread the decease.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 19, 2020, 12:09:00 pm
Like Chris said. Also the remoter and wilder the better.

I'm not sure about this. This morning I, as I always do, looked at the weather forecast and the non-pandemic-addled part of my mind instantly went to planning a day hit up to the Lakes. Stuff I'd like to do up there is remote, out of the way, unlikely to be anyone I can't avoid, etc. I wouldn't be going to the Bowderstone. And it looks flipping mint.

But then I remembered it'd be at least a 2hr drive. The A65 is hardly a low risk road. I pretty much always stop somewhere for a wee, coffee, lunch or all 3 (not necessarily in that order). If something happened and I hurt myself there's a good chance it'd be a mountain rescue job, especially going on my own. All of these factors lead me to feel it wouldn't be responsible.

Off the top of my head, my criteria are:
- no visiting public places (services, public toilets, pubs, shops, etc.)
- nowhere likely to have more than a couple of other climbers, so we can maintain distance
- lowball, or good landings etc.
- NOT anywhere particularly remote so as to avoid any possibility that rescue would be required if something went wrong

Am I taking these too far? The list of possible venues looks pretty slim when you take them all into account...

It might also be worth considering the difference between outdoor activity during general covid restrictions, and outdoor activity when you are either infected or living with an infected person.

Seems pretty clear to me on the latter; if you or anyone you live with have symptoms you should not be leaving the house except for a zero contact walk or run.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 19, 2020, 12:20:00 pm
I think a balance needs to be struck between remoteness and risk of injury and chance of meeting others.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 19, 2020, 12:21:52 pm
The trouble is, there is so much grey in the government guidelines that every user group across the country (if we use UKB as an example) will be thinking of ways to continue the activity they enjoy. At least in France and Spain things are very clear even if people don't like it.

I think I generally agree with Bradders currently. Obviously the problem is that there are very few, if any places that truly tick all those boxes. On the other hand, currently the government hasn't said don't do it so I'm reluctant to curtail my own activity unnecessarily when I'm sure that is only weeks away anyway.

Arghh!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 19, 2020, 12:24:13 pm
Also should say my view has changed rapidly over the last few days. I went up to Northumberland over the weekend, and then down to Forest Rock on Monday. I had zero close contact with anyone on those trips, but I still stopped at services etc. and they aren't exactly quiet places (although thankfully no one else at FR).

Another part of me is still going "crack on and take care until told otherwise" though. At least as SM says there's certainty in France, Italy and Spain.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: bigironhorse on March 19, 2020, 12:41:52 pm
Here in Austria I think the restrictions are bit more severe. We are advised to stay in the house (41sqm flat for me  :() except for work, essential shopping or helping people. If you are symptomless going for a walk in isolation is also permitted. I went for a wander yesterday past a bouldering venue and there was a group of people there - in my opinion this is totally irresponsible unless they all live together. I don't start my job until April so was hoping to go exploring for the next few weeks now that the weather is good. I was tempted to go out bouldering somewhere unpopular (shit) on my own but the reaction of people on the Austrian climbing facebook groups has dissuaded me - might get lynched if anyone found out!

Looking a bit grim for the foreseeable, I only moved here recently so I've not got a fingerboard or anything set up. I have nearly completed grand theft auto vice city though  8).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 19, 2020, 01:35:03 pm
Plenty of folk up at bbg today apparently....

What happens if (for example) you’re at remergence. Normally someone else comes along “do you mind if I join in etc..” - will this happen? Will people say piss off I was here first! Or an awkward British silence.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 19, 2020, 01:41:54 pm
It they aren't sensitive enough to the issue, you move on.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 19, 2020, 01:44:49 pm

What happens if (for example) you’re at remergence. Normally someone else comes along “do you mind if I join in etc..” - will this happen? Will people say piss off I was here first! Or an awkward British silence.

Just start coughing dryly as soon as you see anyone approaching.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on March 19, 2020, 02:12:51 pm
Plenty of folk up at bbg today apparently....

What happens if (for example) you’re at remergence. Normally someone else comes along “do you mind if I join in etc..” - will this happen? Will people say piss off I was here first! Or an awkward British silence.

I went to Burbage, chose there because it's close to home so minimal drive and approach.  Bad choice to find quiet but I wasn't expecting it to be rammed, all the parking taken roadside and above West.  Mostly walkers but plenty of boulderers out.
I got a spot at Little Roof, folk mostly keeping to themselves, one guy did come over had a quick look but left before I asked him to. If he'd stuck around I would have suggested he could climb on the Wobble Buttress until I was done in 10 minutes or so, if he'd refused I guess I'd have to leave.
Of course there's those you look at and consider idiots, six lads out walking swigging from beer bottles.  But I guess they'd be idiots, virus or not
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Smith42 on March 19, 2020, 02:21:19 pm
Is it essential you go out boulder?

I ll answer for you, NO!

It is totally selfish and irresponsible.  I m going to go crazy too, stuck in doors, but if we all adopt a selfish whats the harm if i just nip out for a quick boulder attitude to help my mental health then everyone will be out doing their own thing and justifying it for 'my mental health'.

FFS think of other people.

At this rate we are heading for total lock down, (with police stopping and issuing fines etc) and it is because selfish irresponsible people are ignoring the government advice. (which admittedly is geared to shoring up our underfunded and overworked NHS)




Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 19, 2020, 02:28:30 pm
I went to Anston this morning. I didn't feel irresponsible (maybe that makes me a bad person?), and closest I got to others was passing some dog walkers at a distance of 1-2m. Walking home from the shops the other day there were still groups of people in the pub (this surprised me - I defo wouldn't be doing that, and have stopped going to even small private training facilities, of which I have access to 2, as it seems irresponsible when I have fingerboards and TRX etc at home).

I'm significantly more conflicted about going to popular crags on weekends or driving further... not really made up my mind about that yet...

The selfish part of me has this problem with not going out at all: this shit will last months. So no going climbing, at a wall or outside, until 2021??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 19, 2020, 02:32:00 pm
At this rate we are heading for total lock down

The only difference between my current existence and full lock-down is climbing outside. In that sense, if we assume that climbing outside is irresponsible, it becomes irrelevant whether we're locked down or not.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 19, 2020, 02:45:30 pm
Smith 42, so what in your mind is acceptable? Do we all have to stay indoors 24/7 until August? Can I go for a run on the quiet roads around me? Walk round the block? Walk to the shops?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 19, 2020, 02:46:58 pm
Is it essential you go out boulder?

I ll answer for you, NO!

It is totally selfish and irresponsible.  I m going to go crazy too, stuck in doors, but if we all adopt a selfish whats the harm if i just nip out for a quick boulder attitude to help my mental health then everyone will be out doing their own thing and justifying it for 'my mental health'.

FFS think of other people.

At this rate we are heading for total lock down, (with police stopping and issuing fines etc) and it is because selfish irresponsible people are ignoring the government advice. (which admittedly is geared to shoring up our underfunded and overworked NHS)

I don't totally disagree with this but if thats the government position then they need to legislate to that effect and lock down. I already don't leave the house except for food as Barrows has said. I am reluctant to take the moral high ground to the extent of it affecting my sanity when there are other people out taking advantage of the grey areas left by the government. Its really tricky and something I am wrestling with constantly. I don't want to be a bad and irresponsible citizen but equally if the government say its ok then I'm going to listen.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: seankenny on March 19, 2020, 03:06:22 pm
I currently have several of the symptoms and am writing this from my bed - tho it’s the first time I’ve had to properly rest all week, so it’s not that bad at all. Nevertheless from here I am well envious of anyone fingerboarding and using their TRX!

Bear in mind that until Sunday I felt totally fine but was probably highly contagious. So what worries me is when people say “I’m meeting my climbing partner and going to an esoteric venue” is that you have to assume either one of you could pass the virus on to the other.

I totally get the mental health aspect - less than a week inside and more than a week to go, it sucks - but the risk for others is much higher. We could all be part of a chain passing the infection on and helping to infect people we’ve never met.

It’s monumentally shit: my better half spent some of her childhood living in a war zone and says it reminds her of that time, just with regular food supplies and functioning electricity.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 19, 2020, 03:16:12 pm
So what worries me is when people say “I’m meeting my climbing partner and going to an esoteric venue” is that you have to assume either one of you could pass the virus on to the other.

Undoubtedly the safest option would be to go climbing on your own or with people in your household, not to lift share, not to meet people at the crag etc.


I totally get the mental health aspect - less than a week inside and more than a week to go, it sucks [...]

It’s monumentally shit:

I think what me and others are driving at/wrestling with is that we're not talking about a couple of weeks here. If we were, the answer would be trivial - don't do shit. Ok, your full self-isolation phase where no-one steps outside the front door is only 2 weeks, but away from that phase we seem to be looking at a 2-18 month timeframe. Only leaving the house to go to the food shops once a week, for the next 2-18 months would make 2 weeks of self-isolation look like Disneyland. Especially for those that live on their own, old or young.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: seankenny on March 19, 2020, 03:29:54 pm
The safest option or the only option? Hard to say, I think the later unless you’ve both been infected and come out of the other side.

And yes I totally get it’s the timescale that’s daunting and awful. But... there was hardly any climbing done 39-45, Joe Brown got shipped off to the Far East for two years to do national service, etc. That’s the kind of ballpark we are in right now.  :alky:

Personally I think the first few months will be the worst. After that hopefully better testing and a better equipped health service might be enough to give is some freedoms back. But maybe saying that I’m just bargaining to make myself feel better...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Falling Down on March 19, 2020, 03:54:35 pm
Get well soon Sean
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 19, 2020, 04:26:42 pm
We're what, 4 days into more a restrictive  but not total lock-down lifestyle, and this thread points to why a long-term lock-down (more than 4 weeks) is going to be 'probably impractical' as per the SPI-M document.
When those pandemic modellers and behavioural scientists consider the human response to a long-term total lock-down I assume they don't just spend 30 minutes pondering it on their lunch break.. I assume they'll have based the 'probably impractical' assumption on evidence of the way people behave when asked to totally lock-down their lives and the likelihood of compliance over the long-term.
I think the reason we're contemplating one instead of sticking with the 'mitigate' strategy is because currently it's politically and emotionally unacceptable to consider the alternative.
At some point this year, if things play out as they seem likely to, that attitude will change. We'll probably become too weary, the economy too damaged, and unfortunately people become more numb to high death rates and they become abstract.

Alternatively, if we do totally lock-down soon and then within a couple of months a vaccine is miraculously developed then it will have been by far the best move to fully lock-down rather than selectively lock-down the most at-risk (i.e. mitigate).

(And get well Sean)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 19, 2020, 04:28:00 pm
If I have the Corona virus—which is not unlikely even if I have no symptoms as the incubation period can be up to 14 days and I have a job where I meet a lot of young people—I will quite likely have spread the virus to many, including a climbing partner with bronchitis who in this case will be quite likely to die.

For example.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 19, 2020, 04:36:13 pm
If I have the Corona virus—which is not unlikely even if I have no symptoms as the incubation period can be up to 14 days and I have a job where I meet a lot of young people—I will quite likely have spread the virus to many, including a climbing partner with bronchitis who in this case will be quite likely to die.

For example.

Ouch.

I bet that hurts.

I cannot think of any rationale that makes anything you mentioned, your fault, though.
So, really hope you’re not navigating those waters.

Get well soon.

I expect most of us are heading into that story line.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 19, 2020, 05:06:04 pm
Hope you're well again soon Sean.
How's it going with you Falling Down?
I expect with the general lack of people taking social distancing seriously  in the UK we'll end up under lock-down within a week or two.
I live within 10-30 mins drive of loads of crags and I know loads of truly obscure places to hide on them.
I intend to climb on these on my own or with my son until there is a clear prohibition.
I might well change my mind though if it becomes clear climbers are failing to practice strict social distancing and the only option is to knock it on the head.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 19, 2020, 05:15:31 pm
Hope you're well again soon Sean.
How's it going with you Falling Down?
I expect with the general lack of people taking social distancing seriously  in the UK we'll end up under lock-down within a week or two.
I live within 10-30 mins drive of loads of crags and I know loads of truly obscure places to hide on them.
I intend to climb on these on my own or with my son until there is a clear prohibition.
I might well change my mind though if it becomes clear climbers are failing to practice strict social distancing and the only option is to knock it on the head.

This exactly. Completely agree.

I’ve (now) stopped any long distance forays - there are plenty of obscure Lancs/Cheshire spots to go at. Today I went to the Wilton’s - no chalk anywhere. A caked chalk fest at a popular crag would be something I would certainly steer clear of.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: User deactivated on March 19, 2020, 05:46:32 pm
Hope you're well again soon Sean.
How's it going with you Falling Down?
I expect with the general lack of people taking social distancing seriously  in the UK we'll end up under lock-down within a week or two.
I live within 10-30 mins drive of loads of crags and I know loads of truly obscure places to hide on them.
I intend to climb on these on my own or with my son until there is a clear prohibition.
I might well change my mind though if it becomes clear climbers are failing to practice strict social distancing and the only option is to knock it on the head.

This exactly. Completely agree.

I’ve (now) stopped any long distance forays - there are plenty of obscure Lancs/Cheshire spots to go at. Today I went to the Wilton’s - no chalk anywhere. A caked chalk fest at a popular crag would be something I would certainly steer clear of.

Would chalk have an effect on how long the virus is likely to stay present if on a surface/hold? Didn't realise that if so.

Like you I hope to still climb for the time being but won't be gong to any popular or roadside crags hopefully minimising the risk of spread. Last boulder I went to was tidal, a neat solution I thought haha.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 19, 2020, 05:51:47 pm
My wife and I are "doing" social distancing. There seems to be quite a few different thoughts about what we should be doing in the UK right now. Here is what the government's definition of social distancing is:

Quote
Avoid contact with someone who is displaying symptoms of coronavirus (COVID-19). These symptoms include high temperature and/or new and continuous cough
Avoid non-essential use of public transport, varying your travel times to avoid rush hour, when possible
Work from home, where possible. Your employer should support you to do this. Please refer to employer guidance for more information
Avoid large gatherings, and gatherings in smaller public spaces such as pubs, cinemas, restaurants, theatres, bars, clubs
Avoid gatherings with friends and family. Keep in touch using remote technology such as phone, internet, and social media
Use telephone or online services to contact your GP or other essential services
Everyone should be trying to follow these measures as much as is pragmatic.

We strongly advise you to follow the above measures as much as you can and to significantly limit your face-to-face interaction with friends and family if possible, particularly if you:

are over 70
have an underlying health condition
are pregnant

And in the section on staying sane:

Quote
You can also go for a walk outdoors if you stay more than 2 metres from others.

So going climbing on your own or with someone who lives with you is ok according to the guidance. As is walking in the hills. I think the biggest risks are fomite transmission, and not hurting yourself, either in the car on the way there or at the crag. Even if you don't have a ready partner in your household, you can reduce these risks by climbing at places with non-highball bouldering with good landings and driving carefully on the way there (I normally drive the road between Otley and Brimham at a swift, though legal pace, I'd probably slow it down a bit).

Hint: Burbage is not esoteric. There are lots of resources that can direct you to bouldering that is suitable.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 19, 2020, 05:52:14 pm
Plenty of folk up at bbg today apparently....

What happens if (for example) you’re at remergence. Normally someone else comes along “do you mind if I join in etc..” - will this happen? Will people say piss off I was here first! Or an awkward British silence.

Not that many. Just me, Nick and Tom at Remergence. Someone was doing stuff in the vicinity and I asked whether he wanted a go on anything but he declined.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 19, 2020, 05:56:52 pm

Hint: Burbage is not esoteric. There are lots of resources that can direct you to bouldering that is suitable.

Any ideas of websites that may have details of these areas, where the rocks are lesser known?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 19, 2020, 06:36:19 pm
@jackpal

Re chalk. I’ve read a couple of blog posts summarising a study (I think) looking at air quality in climbing gyms.

Their main findings were that the issue was not the particulate effect of chalk dust on lungs - more that certain bacteria quite liked attaching themselves to chalk. Including ones associated with fecal matter.

Toilet > hand > hold > chalk etc... put simply they said that’s why many climbing walls smell a bit stale, Musty etc... because of these bacteria on the chalk.

It’s then an interpretation that virus inc CV19 could behave in the same way / and be quite happily attached to some chalk particles. Cold viruses tend to like cold dry conditions (not damp)....

There are two (I think) instances of where a climbing gym in Singapore (where they really contact trace properly) was the point of infection between people. Whether that happened because they were chatting, sneezed on each other or used the same holds who knows.

So my view is that if something is recently rainwashed and clean - or basking in UV (that kills it) then it’s probably fine. The caked start hold of demon wall roof (for example) would not fit any of those categories!! So would the starting holds of blind date etc.. and most of the Remergence problems that rarely see water...

That’s my view - my interpretation - and my reasons are above. And that’s why I think I’ll be sneaking off to esoteric lowballs that are unpopular. Plenty round here :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 19, 2020, 06:40:37 pm
I think it's really positive that there is a genuine debate about climbing etc at the moment, whatever people's opinions it's low risk compared to the f*ckwits packing out branches of Costa or Wetherspoons every day because they're not at work.
I fully respect people deciding to go out or not to, but at least the debate indicates that they're likely to take reasonable precautions if they do.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Falling Down on March 19, 2020, 06:51:06 pm
How's it going with you Falling Down?

Alright thanks Bonjoy - I put a bit of a ‘life in London’ update on the ‘How many people are going to die? - debate’ thread earlier.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: finbarrr on March 19, 2020, 07:17:58 pm
the forrest of fontainebleau is now "closed".
no climbing, running, cycling, horse riding, etc.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1889115478063384/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 19, 2020, 07:39:27 pm
This. I don't want to belittle this, believe me, but there does seem to be an element of virtue signalling going on (similar to the lynching that occurred when two blokes walked up a wet Mod at Crookrise). People seem to have no idea by what is meant by esoteric. Crags where it's a miracle if somebody's logged climbs there in the last 2 months on UKC. They're not shit either.

Our website is www.unknownstones.com
There's a Peak one as well that I'm aware of. https://esotericboulderingcompanion.weebly.com/

Unknown Stones has grown and grown since it started. Admittedly, there is some stuff on there that is a bit log, but there are more gems. If anyone wants a recommendation then let me know your desired grade and I'll try and help.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Sasquatch on March 19, 2020, 07:42:28 pm
It's interesting to see how other governments are responding.  I'm in Alaska, which I would normally think of as being less likely to put any draconian control measures in place.   As of Monday our mayor closed all bars and restaurants to dine in service, all gyms closed, and any other social gathering places.  On Thursday the governor followed suit for the rest of the state.  Currently Alaska has 6 cases or about 1 case per 100K population. 

In relation to getting outside, I think u here there are so few climbers and so much rock, that the odds of seeing anyone, much less getting on the same climbs within a reasonable window are miniscule.  instead my concern is related to getting injured...

I think every place is different and people should be conservative about it. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: seankenny on March 19, 2020, 07:47:10 pm
Get well soon Sean

Thanks! For me the hardest thing to deal with is the feelings of massive loss of control of my life, that’s way worse than having a bad cough. As jwi says above, right now if I visited my mum or my brother (who just had some chemo) then I could easily kill them. And given the very sudden onset of symptoms, we could all easily kill our loved ones.

Sure we all know this intellectually but it took a while to sink in for me. (I don’t think I’m fully there yet.)

I cancelled some (but not all) social events really early, not enough but I didn’t realise how quickly it would arrive... I did that bargaining thing with myself - “yes you can go to the wall at 9am in Wednesday and as long as you remove all your clothes when you get in etc etc”, (edit: get back home! Not a naked wall sesh to ensure a bit of quiet...  :no: ) and I’ve seen a lot of that (not necessarily here mind).

Personally I can see nothing wrong and lots right with a solo bouldering session at an esoteric cliff.

But... perhaps if we want people to give up what they love when what they love is watching the football in the pub, then we have to do the same. Because right now everyone is going to do that bargaining thing with themselves to avoid the horrible consequences of the situation we find ourselves in. Perhaps it will be easier if we start having lots of deaths..?

I really don’t know what we should do.

 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 19, 2020, 08:59:44 pm
Hope you feel better soon Sean.

Burbage was as busy as a weekend today, encouraging tbh as none were in big groups and it means they weren't at work or shopping etc. But I haven't noticed much change in town around work. Local Supermarket was busier than normal.

Managed a solo bouldering session at Stanage without getting near anyone anyway. Looks like a great forecast for the next week so should be a good chance to get out. If we get limited to local exercise it's a great time of year for birdwatching...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 19, 2020, 09:27:38 pm
But... perhaps if we want people to give up what they love when what they love is watching the football in the pub, then we have to do the same.

I really can't see the equivalence here. One activity very clearly does not involve any sort of social distance, the other is practically the definition of if practiced cautiously and undertaken solo. Equating the two just doesn't make any sense.

Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on March 19, 2020, 10:04:34 pm


Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.

Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 19, 2020, 10:09:23 pm
Claiming exceptional status, regardless of the logical argument, is not going to “make friends and influence” amongst those whose lifestyles have been hamstrung.

If life followed any sort of logic, we would not have supermarket shelve devoid of bog roll.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: seankenny on March 19, 2020, 10:15:52 pm
But... perhaps if we want people to give up what they love when what they love is watching the football in the pub, then we have to do the same.

I really can't see the equivalence here. One activity very clearly does not involve any sort of social distance, the other is practically the definition of if practiced cautiously and undertaken solo. Equating the two just doesn't make any sense.

Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.

Oh gosh, logically there is absolutely no equivalence. But we’re all bargaining with ourselves on what we can do. Looking for loopholes that let us find a way to carry on normally. (Mine is that I can go back to more normal because I’ll be immune... well maybe.) Everyone in the pub will have found one, for sure. The point is that this isn’t just about networks spreading disease, but networks spreading the best way to survive this thing, and to find new ways to live for the time being.

You tell you’re dad you’re stopping climbing for the time being. Your dad and his mates discuss this, appreciate what a massive deal it is, quit doing their social thing for a bit. Great - one more step towards making everyone a bit safer.

I don’t think anyone is under any moral obligation to do this, and I’m not going to judge either way. Maybe everyone in your network of family and friends is doing just great, or is totally intransigent. Maybe you think my multiplier effect is just “be the change you want to see in the world” hippy bullshit. I don’t think it’s black and white... but I do think we should consider it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 19, 2020, 10:48:10 pm


Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.

Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.

Is this because they wish to set an example, or because proper athletes are the most massively paranoid people about even common colds? Safer to stay in a private air con gym on a turbo trainer!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kingholmesy on March 19, 2020, 10:55:34 pm

that’s why I think I’ll be sneaking off to esoteric lowballs that are unpopular.


What’s new?  ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 19, 2020, 11:03:27 pm
It still stands that, at the moment, it is possible to adapt our hobby to comply fully with government guidance. This may change in the future. Climbing outside is not merely a way to while away the hours that can be replaced by doing some ancap on a fingerboard, it is also an escape which may be very much needed during the next months.
I can understand the bit about setting an example to others, but why not do this by telling them about the group trip that you cancelled, the changes you've made to what you'd normally do etc?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on March 19, 2020, 11:04:51 pm


Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.

Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.

Is this because they wish to set an example, or because proper athletes are the most massively paranoid people about even common colds? Safer to stay in a private air con gym on a turbo trainer!

The only proper discussion I have heard was on the cycling podcast and the guy (?Mitch docker) said it just felt like the wrong thing to do plus you don't want to be that guy who falls off his bike and takes up a hospital bed which is needed by someone with severe respiratory failure

I am not saying not to go out,  I don't know what my feelings are about it but people are still spraying on insta about doing problems at the tor and advertising lamp sessions which I think is pretty distasteful and irresponsible
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on March 19, 2020, 11:11:56 pm
Been pondering this all day.

My other half is a bit of a germaphobe and has been all over this the last week or two. Works for the NHS as geneticist.  Our parents are elderly and her mum has cancer and has just finished chemo.

I'm working from home, cause I'm perfectly able to. One child is off school, the other not (same school Y7 in, Y9 off. go figure)

However, she's cool with us going out climbing etc.  As she pointed out, the current advice is only the 70 plus and vulnerable should be self isolating at the moment.

Nobody has come out and said, as yet, that healthy, young ish folk cant carry out their normal business, go to work,  go to the shops, go for a run. etc.

Large gatherings are not on, so pubs, cinemas etc, are all out the question, but a bit of solitary bouldering out at the crags hasn't been ruled out at all. 

And it may be to do with this way of thinking..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl6tTwxzCi8&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on March 19, 2020, 11:15:36 pm
Quote
Nobody has come out and said, as yet, that healthy, young ish folk cant carry out their normal business, go to work,  go to the shops, go for a run. etc.

Prepared to be told otherwise if I've missed something. ..

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 19, 2020, 11:21:39 pm
If going for a walk is fine, as most of the official advice seems to say I can't really see what's wrong with going bouldering on your own, or in eg pairs whilst maintaining a reasonable distance.

The greatest problem here is that there are people filling bars pubs cafes and restaurants all over the country, which isn't on.

The setting an example thing isn't really that valid, if I drive to the peak to go bouldering noone will be any the wiser, same drive as my commute to work anyway. I also like reading I shouldn't have to stop doing that to convince toe rags out of Wetherspoons.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: erm, sam on March 20, 2020, 07:24:45 am
Sam, that leaking bottle analagy has been discussed at length on the other thread. Basically, it doesn't work as well if the over flow above the lateral hole is only a centimetre high. The capacity of the NHS to cope with increased severly ill cases is so low there is practically no real life buffer.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 20, 2020, 07:46:11 am
people are still spraying on insta about doing problems at the tor and advertising lamp sessions which I think is pretty distasteful and irresponsible

This I very much agree with.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 20, 2020, 08:22:17 am
If we get limited to local exercise it's a great time of year for birdwatching...

And given the lack of human activity might be a great year for birds.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 20, 2020, 08:24:58 am
Thought about this a lot last night during an extremely grumpy fingerboard session!

I have concluded that for now there is nothing wrong with continuing to climb as long as you do it sensitively and maintain social distancing. Anywhere that doesn't allow you to do this is out. Social distancing is staying more than 2m away from people which should be achievable at most crags currently. As Toby said, going for a walk is fine (National Trust are maling a lot of their spaces free to access for precisely this reason) and so I can't see how climbing is any different. As yet a full Spanish-style lockdown is not in place; once it is (and I don't think we're far away) I think we'll have to wave goodbye to climbing for the foreseeable. Goes without saying to not spray about your day outside on social media. These people have no brains.

Really good thread though. Heartening it can be discussed with such sense.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy W on March 20, 2020, 09:03:11 am


Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.

Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.

Is this because they wish to set an example, or because proper athletes are the most massively paranoid people about even common colds? Safer to stay in a private air con gym on a turbo trainer!

In France at least cycling is prohibited, basically you can't run or walk further than 2k from your home, that's on your own as well. Most likely the confinement will be extended to six weeks.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 20, 2020, 09:18:35 am
2 km means I've got sport, trad, boulders and DWS to choose from. Can live with that. Just need a partner for 1, 2 & 4 though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy W on March 20, 2020, 09:22:04 am
unfortunately here climbing is prohibited as well. DWS could be seen as suicide attempt, but guess would be seen as selfish  ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 20, 2020, 09:42:04 am


Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.

Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.

Is this because they wish to set an example, or because proper athletes are the most massively paranoid people about even common colds? Safer to stay in a private air con gym on a turbo trainer!

In France at least cycling is prohibited, basically you can't run or walk further than 2k from your home, that's on your own as well. Most likely the confinement will be extended to six weeks.

2k might just include bell hagg for me. I'd stick to running in that case!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 20, 2020, 09:43:43 am
unfortunately here climbing is prohibited as well. DWS could be seen as suicide attempt, but guess would be seen as selfish  ;)

I jest of course. I might stash a bouldering pad though at a spot that will never b seen and just go for a "run" nearby.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Nutty on March 20, 2020, 09:44:42 am
I'm resigned to not climbing outside for a while. Had a trip to the Peak planned this weekend that I've cancelled. I live at least two hours from any suitable rock so usually end up stopping at a services or something on a day trip. I also work in London (commute in on the train) and whilst I'm working from home now I have been into the office two days this week - I don't want to be the asymptomatic super-spreader leaving a trail of infections in my wake on a day trip to climb some boulders. That's my situation though - if I was more local to rock (and less local to the epicentre) then I probably would still go out, but modify choices of venue to maintain social distancing. I'll hopefully get out for a walk or a run this weekend, but it'll be local and either somewhere that's generally quiet or at a time that's quiet. I've a board in the garden and a fingerboard (and no social distractions now) so as long I maintain psyche and don't get injured I'll be stronger when I do eventually get out again.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on March 20, 2020, 10:21:59 am

2k might just include bell hagg for me. I'd stick to running in that case!

Bell Hagg is a good little venue, why not go clean it up so its even better.   Quiet local low risk bouldering, climbing, top-roping or whatever for the under 70s is fine. The issue with climbing somehwre like that or other popular walks  is avoiding hassle from the ignorant.

If people have time on their hands many old people really need help ...shopping etc (see the link below). Food banks need help and other charities probaly do to. The NHS may soon need help.

https://covidmutualaid.org

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: User deactivated on March 20, 2020, 10:33:58 am
people are still spraying on insta about doing problems at the tor and advertising lamp sessions which I think is pretty distasteful and irresponsible

This I very much agree with.

Aye I totally agree with this.

Will, in response to the esoteric stuff I’m not sure it has to be super esoteric. It’s not a competition to find the least climbed bit of rock. If going out climbing is legit at all I don’t see any difference in going somewhere a little less esoteric and getting on something you want to do, (big cavaet coming) so long as there aren’t people on it already. Why would climbing that empty boulder be any worse than climbing your esoteric one? Your solution obviously heightens your chances of finding something deserted admittedly.

But yeah, don’t go the tor and don’t spray about it. I went somewhere last weekend that ended up busy. I stopped climbing when folk arrive and it became apparent they were staying, it wasn’t a big crag and everything shared the same holds.

Tbh though the more it goes on the more selfish it feels.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy W on March 20, 2020, 10:36:50 am
unfortunately here climbing is prohibited as well. DWS could be seen as suicide attempt, but guess would be seen as selfish  ;)

I jest of course. I might stash a bouldering pad though at a spot that will never b seen and just go for a "run" nearby.

I'd do the same too!  I've just been out to get chicken feed and saw quite a few older folk, flouting the 'rules', makes you quite cross. Basically I could easily drive to a secret bouldering spot, see no one, no risk etc. I choose not to though, yet see the people we are trying to protect, walking round in groups, close proximity and with kids!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 20, 2020, 10:47:39 am

Will, in response to the esoteric stuff I’m not sure it has to be super esoteric. It’s not a competition to find the least climbed bit of rock. If going out climbing is legit at all I don’t see any difference in going somewhere a little less esoteric and getting on something you want to do, (big cavaet coming) so long as there aren’t people on it already. Why would climbing that empty boulder be any worse than climbing your esoteric one? Your solution obviously heightens your chances of finding something deserted admittedly.


I think its all a spectrum isn't it. Tor, Parisellas, Remergence, DWR, basically any confined area with lots of problems on it seems a poor idea to me. There is a middle ground between these places and the hypothetical Windy Choss Clough, which should be fine with a bit of care. Just got to be willing to walk away if theres already someone there.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 20, 2020, 10:52:58 am

Bell Hagg is a good little venue, why not go clean it up so its even better.


Accept that like during Foot and Mouth it may rise in popularity though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 10:57:26 am

Bell Hagg is a good little venue,

 :lol: You must be delirious with fever or have never been to a good crag.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 20, 2020, 11:10:29 am
Will, in response to the esoteric stuff I’m not sure it has to be super esoteric. It’s not a competition to find the least climbed bit of rock. If going out climbing is legit at all I don’t see any difference in going somewhere a little less esoteric and getting on something you want to do, (big cavaet coming) so long as there aren’t people on it already. Why would climbing that empty boulder be any worse than climbing your esoteric one? Your solution obviously heightens your chances of finding something deserted admittedly.

Agree with this too. I reckon a lot of esoterica is less frequently travelled more because they tend to be limited to either a single problem or a handful of problems. If 5 people all turn up to try a single boulder problem at a crag with no other options, that's arguably worse than if those people all went to Caley but spread themselves out.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ballsofcottonwool on March 20, 2020, 11:15:15 am
"To the person who drove within a few centimetres on the open road and insulted me that I wasn't out enjoying myself, I was just doing my job," Filippo Fiorelli of the Bardiani-CSF team wrote on Facebook.

I think pro-cyclists are more worried about the aggression of drivers who see themselves as some kind of vigilantes, doing good by scaring cyclists of the road for their own good.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 20, 2020, 11:16:27 am
Yeah, I'm not insisting everyone sticks to utter shitholes, but the more esoteric it is the more likely you are to be able to distance. And often there are good problems to do at esoteric venues, they just aren't in vogue.

Obviously if you turn up to Almscliff and you're the only one on DWR then you're onto a winner, but what are the odds? Moose got in touch for recommendations and one of the problems I pointed out was Racing Raymond - one of my favourite 7Bs and really off the radar. There are more like that out there.

Fair point, Bradders, if suddenly everyone's after quiet crags then the exercise is self defeating!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 11:22:47 am
Agree with this too. I reckon a lot of esoterica is less frequently travelled more because they tend to be limited to either a single problem or a handful of problems. If 5 people all turn up to try a single boulder problem at a crag with no other options, that's arguably worse than if those people all went to Caley but spread themselves out.

It strikes me that the main rule should be: try to avoid climbing close to others. So if you go to a boulder and someone's already there then move on. At somewhere like the tor - I can't see an issue with having one person on Ben's, one on pinches wall and one on Powerband, whereas having three people in the Bens/Keen area would be uncool.

I'm surprised that today I've already heard of people from different housholds lift-sharing to go to Malham, and other people having their parents round for dinner.  :wall:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: crzylgs on March 20, 2020, 11:38:15 am
Friend who is very local to them has taken his lad out for a stroll to the roaches, reported the car park is rammed and its very busy with climbers / boulderers. Is far from the masses of Spring Breakers in USA mixing in bars/beaches but it doesn't seem ideal.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: JamieG on March 20, 2020, 11:44:57 am
I snapped already and went for cheeky morning session to hobson moor. One guy turned up and we chatted a bit (at a distance) and then he asked if he could jump on the same problem I was trying. I said "normally I would say no problem, but at the moment i think it is better to try to maintain social distancing". It was awkward. He looked a bit perplexed I felt like a total dick! Told him "Sorry, I feel like a dick!" He was good about it. Asked him if was worried about corona and he said not really. He doesn't know or interact with anyone vulnerable. Whole thing was weird. I normally really like the social aspect of bouldering and meeting people at the crag. Weird times.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 20, 2020, 11:50:36 am
Going to Malham at all at the moment I don't really get. Fondling the holds on Consenting after someone else has done with them is so clearly a bad idea. Makes me sad as I miss it and want to go back a lot!

Think you did the right thing for what its worth Jamie.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 20, 2020, 11:54:26 am
Right thing. If nothing else you may have changed his perspective, and he will hopefully do the same thing.

Even if he doesn't interact with someone known to be vulnerable, you might.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Liamhutch89 on March 20, 2020, 11:55:51 am
Going to Malham at all at the moment I don't really get. Fondling the holds on Consenting after someone else has done with them is so clearly a bad idea. Makes me sad as I miss it and want to go back a lot!

Think you did the right thing for what its worth Jamie.

Genuine question, is this really any worse than fondling the tin of beans at the supermarket (or even home delivery)? Obviously we should wash our hands afterwards and not touch our face but it seems the risk of transmission would be incredibly low in this scenario?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Hoseyb on March 20, 2020, 11:56:18 am
Any North Wales types needing escape, I can recommend researching moel meirch. You won't see anyone pretty much from the road onwards, and there's at least one unclimbed 3* bloc tucked away out there. Wellies recommended
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 20, 2020, 11:57:20 am

Genuine question, is this really any worse than fondling the tin of beans at the supermarket (or even home delivery)? Obviously we should wash our hands afterwards and not touch our face but it seems the risk of transmission would be incredibly low in this scenario?

No idea on the science. Just feels like the sport climbing equivalent of a session on Demon Wall Roof. No way does the catwalk count as social distancing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 12:09:46 pm
My guess is that it's less likely to be a risk than going shopping, but that going shopping is - to some extent - required for living, whereas Malham isn't. This being why even French/Spanish style lockdown would require a long time to totally remove the virus - transmission still continues, just hopefully at below 1 transmission per infected person and you get a slow decay to zero...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on March 20, 2020, 12:21:24 pm

Bell Hagg is a good little venue, why not go clean it up so its even better.


Accept that like during Foot and Mouth it may rise in popularity though.

I climbed there and much more often at Wharncliffe during Foot and Mouth. Lots of climbers were sulking online but the venues were never that busy despite the quality. Also had a look at Stannington Ruffs and promised myself never to return except in a super cold snap in winter for the small ice fall.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fatneck on March 20, 2020, 12:32:13 pm
I'm going to somewhere in Lancs with the wife tomorrow afternoon. All being well, I will report back afterwards to say how it felt morally...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 12:35:51 pm
Lots of climbers were sulking online but the venues were never that busy despitebecause of the quality.

Fixed ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on March 20, 2020, 12:54:33 pm
Lots of climbers were sulking online but the venues were never that busy despitebecause of the quality.

Fixed ;)

It's funny for the eilte but for bumblies like me Wharncliffe is different....it is in my top ten grit crags. Reliable year round and with good exploration potential for low grade boudering and lower grade micro-routes. One of the fun aspects is tracking down all those Puttrell routes: there were supposedly over 100 routes in 1900, more at those grades than in the "89 guide
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 20, 2020, 12:56:23 pm
Paradoxically, 2020 could well be a breakthrough year for UK/world bouldering standards!
Video evidence required though...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 01:15:16 pm
It's funny for the eilte but for bumblies like me Wharncliffe is different....

For context I guess I should point out that I think most grit crags are a bit meh, even the best ones
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 20, 2020, 01:44:44 pm
 I've already made my fairly relaxed attitude to climbing at the moment plain, but lift sharing up to Malham isn't right.
I'm at work in the peak today. Lots of big groups of ramblers wandering around and into cafes etc. It really annoys and upsets me, I want to shout at them that they're just helping to overload hospitals, accelerate virus spreading, and putting NHS staff at personal risk.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mikester on March 20, 2020, 01:53:51 pm
Going to Malham at all at the moment I don't really get.

Agree. Very public and, from Sheffield, a 2 hour drive each way! Although I'm not sure what distance/duration is considered acceptable.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on March 20, 2020, 01:57:42 pm
Quote
Genuine question, is this really any worse than fondling the tin of beans at the supermarket (or even home delivery)? Obviously we should wash our hands afterwards and not touch our face but it seems the risk of transmission would be incredibly low in this scenario?
Other corona viruses can survive on surfaces for up to 9 days but some think significantly longer in cold conditions.  Not sure about chalky holds at caley. You would think a long time at the glassy malham.

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(20)30046-3/fulltext
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 02:00:26 pm
Going to Malham at all at the moment I don't really get.

Agree. Very public and, from Sheffield, a 2 hour drive each way! Although I'm not sure what distance/duration is considered acceptable.

It was the lift sharing that surprised me the most tbh

Tim - I thought it didn't get on well with UV?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on March 20, 2020, 02:07:56 pm
Yeah this was just one random paper I saw.   This seemed to be looking at different chemical disinfectants.   God knows about UV.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 02:21:57 pm
A quick google and pick of the most reliable looking sources suggests that unless you nuke it with high doses of UV (i.e. not just a sunny day) then UV maybe isn't the panacea I was assuming it might be...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: JamieG on March 20, 2020, 02:35:26 pm
Seeing as the amount of time we are going to be getting outside (or inside for that matter) is likely going to be somewhat curtailed. Is this a good time for a mass effort on improving the info on peakbouldering.info? Or does it only see limited use?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 20, 2020, 04:14:57 pm
Just been to millers dale with the lad and MrsTT so he could zoom on his balance bike. Not busy - 10 cars in car park?? People polite but keeping a distance. Small groups on picnic tables.

In contrast Lyme park was full on the way there and back when we went past...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 20, 2020, 04:21:48 pm

In contrast Lyme park was full on the way there and back when we went past...

National Trust are going to seriously regret making everything free. Intentions were good though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 20, 2020, 04:44:58 pm
We went for a stroll along Derwent edge today. We’ve decided we’d feel better not climbing for the foreseeable future.

I really struggled to contain my anger at what I saw. Groups of 5 or 6 lads walking together in close proximity. 4 Old folk sat together having a sandwich. As we arrived at the car park a tiny car disgorged four teenagers.

I appreciate the thought people have put into things on this thread. It’s a bit depressing to hear of people car sharing to malham, or climbing on remergence with “only” a couple of other people.

Suppose one person at that remergence session was an asymptomatic carrier. At current growth and death rates that little remergence session could directly kill 5 people on a timescale of a month. That’s not ok.

There’s lots of good thoughtful advice on this thread but if you are climbing on the same bloc with someone you do not live with, that’s a dick move.

Sorry if that’s harsh. Still wound up by my walk.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 05:04:12 pm
Stu, did your walk in any way make you reconsider your decision not to climb? I find it really hard to think of binning off climbing when everyone else is still doing way dumber stuff (going to the pub, meeting up for picnics, going out for meals etc.)
EDIT: much of the above just banned
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 20, 2020, 05:42:04 pm
There’s lots of good thoughtful advice on this thread but if you are climbing on the same bloc with someone you do not live with, that’s a dick move.

Sorry if that’s harsh. Still wound up by my walk.

Agree. I don't think that's any different to what many have been saying. It's not harsh, it's the (utterly mind-boggling) reality.

Stu, did your walk in any way make you reconsider your decision not to climb? I find it really hard to think of binning off climbing when everyone else is still doing way dumber stuff (going to the pub, meeting up for picnics, going out for meals etc.)
EDIT: much of the above just banned


Even with all those things banned, I still think climbing exclusively on your own is okay. In fact watching the briefing at the moment the Deputy CMO has specifically called out exercise on your own outside as something she would encourage.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy W on March 20, 2020, 06:33:26 pm
There’s lots of good thoughtful advice on this thread but if you are climbing on the same bloc with someone you do not live with, that’s a dick move.

Sorry if that’s harsh. Still wound up by my walk.

Agree. I don't think that's any different to what many have been saying. It's not harsh, it's the (utterly mind-boggling) reality.

Stu, did your walk in any way make you reconsider your decision not to climb? I find it really hard to think of binning off climbing when everyone else is still doing way dumber stuff (going to the pub, meeting up for picnics, going out for meals etc.)
EDIT: much of the above just banned


Even with all those things banned, I still think climbing exclusively on your own is okay. In fact watching the briefing at the moment the Deputy CMO has specifically called out exercise on your own outside as something she would encourage.

It'd not ok in France, where I live, or Italy or Spain, why do you think the UK isn't going to follow in terms of infection rates? It's really difficult to maintain the discipline of restraint, whilst you see others not doing so, but I can't really see any other morally acceptable alternative.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 20, 2020, 06:38:15 pm
Stu, did your walk in any way make you reconsider your decision not to climb? I find it really hard to think of binning off climbing when everyone else is still doing way dumber stuff (going to the pub, meeting up for picnics, going out for meals etc.)
EDIT: much of the above just banned

Reconsidering your communal board sessions yet?  :worms:

I've had a similar experience to Stu today here in the Ribble Valley. The pubs were fairly packed and from early too.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 20, 2020, 06:46:59 pm
I think our decision not to climb at all is over cautious but I’m happy with it.

I’ve never been one to think “fuck it, if everyone else is doing it...” If you keep the moral high ground and the world does go full zombie apocalypse at least I’ll not feel I made it worse.

I am still fuming though, but I alternate between being mad at the government for not being clearer and mad at the individuals for being berks.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 20, 2020, 07:19:19 pm

Reconsidering your communal board sessions yet?  :worms:

Huh? Not been to a wall (commercial or otherwise) since middle of last week and don't see that changing any time soon ...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 20, 2020, 08:35:37 pm
I think our decision not to climb at all is over cautious but I’m happy with it.

I’ve never been one to think “fuck it, if everyone else is doing it...” If you keep the moral high ground and the world does go full zombie apocalypse at least I’ll not feel I made it worse.

I am still fuming though, but I alternate between being mad at the government for not being clearer and mad at the individuals for being berks.

The pub opposite my flat is absolutely rammed. Berks does not even begin to do justice to my feelings about these people.  Selfish assholes just don't seem to care they're prolonging the situation and effectively killing people
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 20, 2020, 08:46:25 pm
I don't think they're malicious, I think they just don't get their heads around exponential growth. Mass of the population have form in not grasping the compound interest they pay (but don't seek to earn by saving) is what keeps them working for the man; so why would they understand compound growth in deaths among people they'll never meet. Frustrating yes but surprising, really?   
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on March 20, 2020, 09:57:38 pm
Not enough people distancing for it to be effective and there’s no prospect of it being enforced even in London. This country’s totally fucked.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on March 20, 2020, 10:08:20 pm
Treating the closure like Mardi Gras in half the pubs in town... You cant make this stuff up  :shrug:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 20, 2020, 10:38:29 pm

In contrast Lyme park was full on the way there and back when we went past...

National Trust are going to seriously regret making everything free. Intentions were good though.
Fake news... (from me - sorry) car park wasn’t full (signs said it was) they’ve closed the estate to all except pedestrians.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Liamhutch89 on March 21, 2020, 09:06:09 am
Went to Caley last night. Didn't see a single person and my car was the only one parked in the lay by. Washed my hands as best I could when I left the crag and then again when I got home.

Drove home past all the people in fancy dress doing the Otley run then had my riskiest moment of the day chatting to my neighbour on the drive.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 21, 2020, 09:26:14 am
I don't think they're malicious, I think they just don't get their heads around exponential growth. Mass of the population have form in not grasping the compound interest they pay (but don't seek to earn by saving) is what keeps them working for the man; so why would they understand compound growth in deaths among people they'll never meet. Frustrating yes but surprising, really?

That doesn't mean I feel any less anger at these c**ks when me and all my colleagues are shitting ourselves about trying to get effective PPE in rural Derbyshire and being sent out to crisis patients and hospital discharges with no idea if they're infected.
I think this degree of willful carelessness should merit punishment. Unfortunately Im sure the police have better things to do.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 21, 2020, 09:32:25 am
I don't think they're malicious, I think they just don't get their heads around exponential growth. Mass of the population have form in not grasping the compound interest they pay (but don't seek to earn by saving) is what keeps them working for the man; so why would they understand compound growth in deaths among people they'll never meet. Frustrating yes but surprising, really?

That doesn't mean I feel any less anger at these c**ks when me and all my colleagues are shitting ourselves about trying to get effective PPE in rural Derbyshire and being sent out to crisis patients and hospital discharges with no idea if they're infected.
I think this degree of willful carelessness should merit punishment. Unfortunately Im sure the police have better things to do.

Agree.

Given everything many of us are sacrificing for this, I don’t feel inclined to either forgive or forget, those who think it’s all a joke.

Worse, if the sacrifice pays off, the c&£nts are never going to realise their c&£ntishness.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on March 21, 2020, 10:06:39 am
Pretty hard to get 66 million people to behave when a large proportion of them are cunts. Bank holiday levels of business in the Pass and Anglesey yesterday.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 21, 2020, 03:34:39 pm
Pictures on TV over coming weeks may have an impact on people’s behaviour. Fear may do more than govt recommendations.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 21, 2020, 03:44:46 pm
Pictures on TV over coming weeks may have an impact on people’s behaviour. Fear may do more than govt recommendations.

Might be a bit late then :( pics from Italian hospitals are shocking... but only Sky are running them. Maybe a steer not to scare people too much.

Who knows.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 21, 2020, 04:12:35 pm
The only thing you can really know is that the true picture today will not be visible for a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 21, 2020, 04:30:20 pm
Various reports of popular crags super busy with groups today 🤯

Why couldn’t have corona coincided with the terrible weather we’ve had up until now...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 21, 2020, 04:45:50 pm
Various reports of popular crags super busy with groups today...

Why are people so fucking lazy. That’s all I can put it down to. Mentally lazy really not to think of going somewhere else.

I went to Blackstone today.. 20 min walk in (good for you apparently!) cold and windy but plenty sheltered and great conditions on the rock.

Not one other person climbing in the 4 hours I was there (and there’s a lot of rock to go around too..) Lots of walkers and the car park was busy.. but no climbers.

You’re killing people ffs.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 21, 2020, 04:57:38 pm
I took the kids down the park v early today and there was a group of 10 people doing an outdoor fitness class.

The Peak is heaving this afternoon.

I don’t see this as a failure of individuals or callousness on their part, the message simply hasn’t been communicated effectively.

Also, how are people supposed to understand that it’s ok to go to the supermarket with literally thousands of others, yet they can’t go for a walk with anyone outside their household?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 21, 2020, 05:18:24 pm
Agree - people just don’t get it.

It’s pretty bleeding obvious to see where this is going. It’ll be like the pubs - you ask people not to go. They still go. You shut the pubs.

Same will happen outdoors I recon. By early next week I expect. Couple of bad days of numbers and we’ll enter the lockdown proper.

To be fair that was probably always going to be where this ended up...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 21, 2020, 05:42:47 pm
I was having a look at the guidance again earlier, and there doesn’t seem to be anything in there about not travelling, just no unnecessary travel by public transport (unless I missed something).  I wonder if people are just putting this together with the ‘get some fresh air’ guidance and ignoring some of the social distancing stuff (may not seem as appropriate outside)?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on March 21, 2020, 05:43:51 pm
Various reports of popular crags super busy with groups today 🤯

Why couldn’t have corona coincided with the terrible weather we’ve had up until now...

I know right!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkey boy on March 21, 2020, 06:38:24 pm
I went to an esoteric place earlier on today and didn't see a soul all day, even walking in and out. It's totally possible to do but it seems a lot of people aren't doing it. I hear Curbar and Gardoms were very busy!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on March 21, 2020, 06:42:37 pm
Think the lovely weather this weekend after such a miserable winter is too tempting for lots of folk. Probably an element of "it may be the last chance to get out for months" too.

I went sport climbing with the gf today, some observations:

It's very easy, even at relatively small crags with several pairs operating, to keep well over 2m distance. The groups going for a walk past were much closer together than any climbers.

Even when there's plenty of routes, there's rarely that many at a suitable grade, and not that many good ones, so it's hard to avoid climbing routes that have already been done that day.

It's a fairly quiet crag but there was at least 6 pairs there, and 4 of those seemed to be folk who didn't live together - think this and lift sharing is much more likely to be an effective vector than using the same holds as others.

Hand Sanitiser before and after routes was easy enough, but clipping without using your mouth is mostly unfeasible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wood FT on March 21, 2020, 07:02:57 pm
Is this Brean, Duma?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 21, 2020, 07:04:12 pm
Given how the new cases has just rocketed - I’d be amazed if we make it to Monday morning before a complete lockdown...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 21, 2020, 07:04:55 pm
Had two hours out up here. Never saw a soul, no walkers either. Typically of county crags it didn’t actually look like anybody had been there in months.
15 mins drive from the house, no high balls and guess my feet never went more than 6 ft off the deck.
Can’t see how I put anyone at risk and it’s cleared my head after a mental week.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on March 21, 2020, 07:20:24 pm
Is this Brean, Duma?

No, Tirpentwys (S Wales sandstone). Brean is about the last crag I'd describe as fairly quiet! I wouldn't consider it at the weekend atm.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wood FT on March 21, 2020, 07:42:36 pm
Is this Brean, Duma?

No, Tirpentwys (S Wales sandstone). Brean is about the last crag I'd describe as fairly quiet! I wouldn't consider it at the weekend atm.

I was going to say.

Will pm you.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 21, 2020, 07:58:08 pm
Started a poll.

Having read comments and reflected I agree travelling to and climbing on Malham Catwalk is unacceptable.

Undecided what outdoor climbing, if anything, is acceptable.

 :'(
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 21, 2020, 08:04:17 pm
For reference current BMC guidance with caveats is here:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/should-you-go-climbing-outdoors-and-hill-walking
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 21, 2020, 08:12:12 pm

Having read comments and reflected I agree travelling to and climbing on Malham Catwalk is unacceptable.



Did you go to Malham today? Heard it was like a bank hol weekend up there...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 21, 2020, 08:25:55 pm
Took the dogs a kids for a walk today. Kept away from everyone else, took a flask.
Felt ok about it.

But, this evening, there are a good deal of posts, like the one below, by various MR teams. They don’t want to have to get together to come get you if you fuck up.

(https://i.ibb.co/my1bkQj/C33218-FC-19-AC-4907-AA1-F-29-A2-D3-DF990-F.jpg)

And, I kinda see their point.

Just can’t see walking or climbing as an infection risk. As long as nothing goes wrong.
Then a Welsh friend shared pictures of the Snowdon car parks today.
It’s nuts.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 21, 2020, 08:27:19 pm
Started a poll.

Having read comments and reflected I agree travelling to and climbing on Malham Catwalk is unacceptable.

Undecided what outdoor climbing, if anything, is acceptable.

 :'(

I went to Rubicon today. Deserted, although extremely muddy.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 21, 2020, 08:31:12 pm
why do you think the UK isn't going to follow in terms of infection rates?

I don't. I think the measures in other countries are impractical and unsustainable, especially when they infringe on activities that are very unlikely to spread the virus if practiced safely. But that's just me.

I went to Simon's Seat today. Very busy with walkers, almost all seemingly family groups. Three pairs of climbers. Didn't go anywhere near anyone the whole time and Fiend's idea of taking a flask of hot soapy water was genius.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkey boy on March 21, 2020, 08:32:09 pm
Had two hours out up here. Never saw a soul, no walkers either. Typically of county crags it didn’t actually look like anybody had been there in months.
15 mins drive from the house, no high balls and guess my feet never went more than 6 ft off the deck.
Can’t see how I put anyone at risk and it’s cleared my head after a mental week.

Totally agree with this. I really think getting outside somewhere quiet and on your own or with person you live with will be very good for the head over the coming months.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 21, 2020, 08:35:50 pm

Having read comments and reflected I agree travelling to and climbing on Malham Catwalk is unacceptable.



Did you go to Malham today? Heard it was like a bank hol weekend up there...

Anston, Woodys. Just me and my son there.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on March 21, 2020, 08:43:26 pm
Re the poll, there's a big diff in my mind between solo bouldering on highball/sketchy landings/remote stuff and solo bouldering on lowball/decent landing/nearby stuff. Also I do think it's possible, though tricky and more effort, to sport climb with a partner you don't live with. Not lift sharing to start with would make a big diff.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cheque on March 21, 2020, 08:57:30 pm
I’m not going to climb until we’re in a less scary stage of this. Probably an easier decision for me to make than most given that I don’t climb on my own these days anyway and had a long period of not knowing when or if I’d climb again fairly recently.

Explored a new bit of Bleaklow with my other half today- it was great and we didn’t go near anyone.  :ang: Parking situation was like you’d expect for the first nice weekend of any spring but we only saw one group larger than a family unit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sheavi on March 21, 2020, 08:59:59 pm
[
Just can’t see walking or climbing as an infection risk. As long as nothing goes wrong.
Then a Welsh friend shared pictures of the Snowdon car parks today.
It’s nuts.
[/quote]

Climbing is an infection risk though.  If you use the same holds as someone has that day, who is infected, or visa versa.  Not sure how long the virus stays on surfaces outdoors but the duration being spoken of indoors is 3 days.  Unless you thoroughly scrub your hand before and after plus use new chalk from a unused container every time.  Then probably wash the holds down after just in case.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: moose on March 21, 2020, 09:40:06 pm
My day was inadvertently Covid mindful. I intended to climb at an esoteric crag, couldn't find it, walked for an hour though deep mud carrying mats, gave up and went home and spent an hour and a half on my neglected Beastmaker. 

Probably the best result in the circumstances - isolated exercise in the open air, then maintaining climbing strength in a fairly risk free manner. Providing there is no lockdown, I might make a habit of it - visiting crags with long walk-ins, to eye up future projects and keep psyched, but not climbing, and keeping my fingers in shape by fingerboarding.

PS Incidentally, using the Beastmaker app made me realise why I avoid repeater based protocols - too much like hard work! I thought I had decent finger strength but I can barely do the 2nd easiest routine! (it involves back 2 hangs, crikey). Still, I guess I'm  going to have plenty of time to improve!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Falling Down on March 21, 2020, 09:48:30 pm
This from Llanberis MRT  https://www.facebook.com/llanberismrt/posts/3535354009870995/ (https://www.facebook.com/llanberismrt/posts/3535354009870995/)

Hope they are OK.  But still FFS
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 21, 2020, 10:16:17 pm
Re the poll, there's a big diff in my mind between solo bouldering on highball/sketchy landings/remote stuff and solo bouldering on lowball/decent landing/nearby stuff. Also I do think it's possible, though tricky and more effort, to sport climb with a partner you don't live with. Not lift sharing to start with would make a big diff.

I agree totally, route climbing is definitely potentially ok in the right location, remember the primary transmission mechanism is airborne droplets not touch, which is far less likely. The fact that we're out in the fresh air makes a massive difference. Car sharing probably not really okay even if you had all the windows open!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 21, 2020, 10:17:48 pm
My day was inadvertently Covid mindful. I intended to climb at an esoteric crag, couldn't find it, walked for an hour though deep mud carrying mats, gave up and went home and spent an hour and a half on my neglected Beastmaker. 

Probably the best result in the circumstances - isolated exercise in the open air, then maintaining climbing strength in a fairly risk free manner. Providing there is no lockdown, I might make a habit of it - visiting crags with long walk-ins, to eye up future projects and keep psyched, but not climbing, and keeping my fingers in shape by fingerboarding.

PS Incidentally, using the Beastmaker app made me realise why I avoid repeater based protocols - too much like hard work! I thought I had decent finger strength but I can barely do the 2nd easiest routine! (it involves back 2 hangs, crikey). Still, I guess I'm  going to have plenty of time to improve!

Nice one. I intend to get a fingerboard sorted out asap. Rock rings are not going to cut it for the next few months
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 21, 2020, 10:43:08 pm
It’s going to be shut down.

It doesn’t matter what we think or reason. Absolutely everything about the daily figures here, match or exceed the Italian numbers at the same point relative to the first 10 deaths, but we’re now behind on counter measures.
And their counter measures are not, in the main, working well enough yet.

Given the rhetoric that is coming out of Bojo’s office today, we’re days away from shut down. He’s virtually pleading.
 Coronavirus: Lombardy region announces stricter measures https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51991972 (http://Coronavirus: Lombardy region announces stricter measures https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51991972)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 21, 2020, 10:54:41 pm
Given the rhetoric that is coming out of Bojo’s office today, we’re days away from shut down.

Weird for an arch Libertarian to be taking the lead on this
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 21, 2020, 11:22:06 pm
Given the rhetoric that is coming out of Bojo’s office today, we’re days away from shut down.

Weird for an arch Libertarian to be taking the lead on this

Much as I've always regarded him as a self interested toe rag with no morals or integrity, I have to say I respect what Johnson is doing. I think he's trying his best to give people s chance to behave sensibly before legally enforceable measures are brought in. What they've done for wages etc already is miles further left than any serious left wing party has ever considered.
The sad thing is, Johnson may have over estimated the intelligence and public spiritedness of the British people.
The death figures increased 30% in a day today. I wonder if all those people in the pub last night had a good think about that.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 21, 2020, 11:25:34 pm
“They” know more than we do and “They” are scared.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 22, 2020, 12:01:06 am
Went to Ilkley Back Quarry and Rocky Valley today. I appreciate these aren't unpopular crags, but my MO was to keep social distancing up. Didn't go near anybody all day, I think the closest I got was a couple in the back quarry who were sat under Ilkley Bar Kid while I warmed up on Blue Cock Wall. They left and I eventually walked on to Crimson Tear.

Despite maintaining distance, I feel a bit uncomfortable about this. Although I kept my distance from everyone, it's not helpful to have such a large number of people all in one place. Cars overspilling the car park! And people in big multi-generational groups!

I feel like I can still keep climbing responsibly but really need to dial down the popularity and get to some of the places where no climbers go and which aren't mobbed with walkers.

Though I expect a nationwide shut down will beat me to it. Here's praying that the new board holds arrive before that happens!

The worst thing was how so many people are not heeding the advice at all. There was even a group of three teenage boys who piled out of a taxi and ran over to their mates while shouting that they'd skipped the fare. They all legged it into the quarry. That taxi driver is probably going to be trying to scrape by on 90 quid a week in a few days. Cunts cunts cunts.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 22, 2020, 07:25:46 am
Yesterday I was a 3 on the poll list - today I’m a 4.

I see all the articles about idiots going out in groups and doing things - and realise that really I’m an idiot. My trip to the boulders - whilst very good for my wellbeing - is completely non-essential.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 22, 2020, 07:42:09 am
My concern is that this is going to go on for a year or more and it's not practical to isolate for that entire period. I think we will end up in a complete lockdown because that will be the only way to get the careless to comply, but is responsible climbing/walking as discussed above really that dangerous when compared against the threats associated with a housebound population? For instance, I'm quite worried about my kids' development if housebound for a year. Then there's obesity etc
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 22, 2020, 07:42:51 am
Yesterday I was a 3 on the poll list - today I’m a 4.

I see all the articles about idiots going out in groups and doing things - and realise that really I’m an idiot. My trip to the boulders - whilst very good for my wellbeing - is completely non-essential.

I'm beginning to come to the same conclusion. I went out but it just didn't really feel right. It's hard because it's objectively less risky than so much of life that's continuing but, as you say, non essential.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 22, 2020, 07:47:20 am
My concern is that this is going to go on for a year or more and it's not practical to isolate for that entire period. I think we will end up in a complete lockdown because that will be the only way to get the careless to comply, but is responsible climbing/walking as discussed above really that dangerous when compared against the threats associated with a housebound population? For instance, I'm quite worried about my kids' development if housebound for a year. Then there's obesity etc

I'm increasingly not sure that something not being practical is an argument against it. The world is really changing at the moment. What's now every day I wouldn't have believed a few months back.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 22, 2020, 08:12:06 am
@will.

I day or two ago I’d have agreed with you. But the problem I see is that our ‘sneak out for solo exercise on a nice day’ strategy relies on most other people in the country NOT doing the same. Which clearly from yesterday didn’t happen.

Everyone I saw yesterday (the pennine way at Blackstone was busy with walkers) were couples or small family groups.  So I expect most people thought the same as me/us - let’s find somewhere quiet and do some self isolated exercise. I’ll wager many of those who flocked to the seaside yesterday thought the same too - but everyone had the same idea.

Having our kids cooped up or just doing garden/back yard based activities is far from ideal - but better do this for a year than 100k people die?? Etc..

Wish it wasn’t like this. I guess we can’t ignore that our activity however esoteric we make it still engages with going outside and travelling.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on March 22, 2020, 08:18:44 am
Same here tom. I took the kids out of school & nursery a couple of days early and have since been a bit disappointed by the disregard going on out there still. Parents groups really are arranging meet ups and fun things for kids, people are going on holiday and it's all innocent fun but it's ridiculous. If that medium article is only half right the healthcare system really is going to collapse and when it does 100k is going to seem like a birthday present. I dont think the message has been communicated at all really let alone not really getting across.

If outside has turned into a bank holiday weekend then though I'm sure where I was going wouldn't be busy I really don't think I should go and add to it even at 7am. It isn't essential by any means.

Probably an overreaction as where I would go really wouldn't be busy...hmm..anyway spent so long thinking about it it isn't 7am any more!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 22, 2020, 08:31:11 am
Having a poll is a bit like turkeys organising one for whether Christmas should go ahead and the it helped my mental health argument is irrelevant to why we are being asked to do this. I hate to judge others and if I wasnt ill, hopefully just with a cold, I know how tempted I would be to go climbing. However, Tomtom is spot on. Anyone who thinks its fine needs to consider why its banned in France and Italy. Do you really think its just an unnecessary over reaction? I suspect theres a fair bit of lock in style pub drinking going on by those who think the same. Its easy for us to see how selfish this would be and we are finding arguments to justify what we want to do as individuals. If everyone does that we really will be in the shit
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 22, 2020, 08:43:48 am
There is a photo doing the rounds today, of a piece of Chinese graffiti (supposedly) that translates (again supposedly) as:

“ We can’t go back to normal. Normal was the problem”.


Fake or not, it’s not far off the mark.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 22, 2020, 08:48:06 am
is responsible climbing/walking as discussed above really that dangerous when compared against the threats associated with a housebound population?

This I think is the salient point. Responsible, solo, bouldering and walking, from everything I've seen, is pretty much completely safe from a transmission perspective and has multiple benefits.

Separately, we might end up having to stop doing it because people are simply incapable of acting responsibly in general. It has nothing to do with whether the activity itself is a risk (which it really isn't).

Anyway, I'm going to follow the official advice. There's enough to worry about without trying to second guess things myself.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 22, 2020, 08:49:42 am
Actually, if this becomes prolonged, Organization is likely the best option.

BMC (?) organised, authority sanctioned, monitored sessions.


Now,

Doesn’t that sound like dystopian, hellish, soul crushing, shit?

Yes, it does.

However, it’s not really any worse than A.N.Other climbing club weekend meet, or even a night at the wall.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on March 22, 2020, 09:00:37 am
For me even if I go somewhere esoteric by myself there's still a risk I'll be involved in an RTC on the way to the crag, or at the very least at some point I'm going to need to put fuel in my car, which even if I take precautions still increases the risk of transmission.

I get both of the above seem like tiny details but I think on the scale of impact that's being talked about, the tiny things will make a difference.

I'm concerned that Italy has far stronger social distancing measures in force than the UK at the moment but currently it doesn't seem to be working.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 22, 2020, 09:10:10 am
This weekend is showing that people don't 'get it' and lock down is necessary, the sooner the better IMO. In the meantime people with the intelligence to find a truly isolated corner to mourn the death of all fun should perhaps keep it to themselves.


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 09:10:30 am
My concern is that this is going to go on for a year or more and it's not practical to isolate for that entire period.

Having our kids cooped up or just doing garden/back yard based activities is far from ideal - but better do this for a year than 100k people die?? Etc..

The following post may prove controversial...
Initially I would have agreed with you without thinking about it too much tomtom. Then I googled how many people die in the UK, it's ~600k/yr. Obviously 100k is a number plucked somewhat from thin air, but (big but), were this to be accurate, that's a 17% increase in death rates for a year (would actually be less than this given that those closest to death are the most likely to die from this - let's plump for say 10-15% since these are swags anyway). is a 15% spike in death rates for a year worth locking the entire population inside apart from a 2hr visit to the shop each week, for a year? We're back to Pete's ethics question here, but when you frame it with those numbers (huge swags obviously), it seems to me that you're into the realm of the answer not necessarily being obvious.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on March 22, 2020, 09:16:01 am

I'm concerned that Italy has far stronger social distancing measures in force than the UK at the moment but currently it doesn't seem to be working.

And just under 800 died there in a day.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 22, 2020, 09:17:39 am
Weird for an arch Libertarian to be taking the lead on this

I have to say I respect what Johnson is doing. I think he's trying his best to give people s chance to behave sensibly before legally enforceable measures are brought in.

I disagree completely with this. You can’t blame people for doing what they’ve been doing when there’s been no clear and consistent advice from the government. In his Friday press conference Johnson said about mother’s day that he would “certainly be sending her my very best wishes and hope to get to see her”. Today that’s shifted to advising everyone to stay away from their mothers. The journalists asking the question re: Mother’s Day could see that people might need advice on what to do and he didn’t have the foresight to come up with an answer in advance and just waffled.

Similarly, the public health advice has been vague guidance that getting outside and exercising with family members is ok. So it’s not really a surprise that on a sunny Saturday people are going to flock to parks, beaches, national trust properties etc thinking that they’re going to be relatively isolated.

There’s been no foresight or proactive advice. It’s all been reactive.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 22, 2020, 09:18:36 am
is responsible climbing/walking as discussed above really that dangerous when compared against the threats associated with a housebound population?

This I think is the salient point. Responsible, solo, bouldering and walking, from everything I've seen, is pretty much completely safe from a transmission perspective and has multiple benefits.

Separately, we might end up having to stop doing it because people are simply incapable of acting responsibly in general. It has nothing to do with whether the activity itself is a risk (which it really isn't).


I think the problem is that the relative risk of things is not what is at issue, rather the perception of the situation.

I was going to go to a remote crag where you park in a small hamlet today, and the more I thought about it, I just saw this as a microcosm of what happened in all the honeypots yesterday. I just imagined the people in the hamlet thinking ‘who is this incomer spreading the virus’. People are not particularly rational at the best of times and even less so in extreme circumstances.

It’s for these sorts of reasons I’ve come down on 2T’s side of the line now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 22, 2020, 09:22:09 am
Abarro, that is back to the fallacy the govt promoted 2 weeks ago -that a number from a data model represents completely controllable reality.

It is also wildly out because if the virus spreads uncontrollably the NHS will crash and mortality will be very high. Deaths from accidents and other illnesses will also soar as a result.

Take the initial assumption of 80% infection, 4% of 53m is well over 2 million  people. I see no reason to view that as improbable or exaggerated.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on March 22, 2020, 09:23:41 am
Personally I am also concerned about the balance here between who (and how many ) we are saving and the harms we are doing to achieve this. We have and are about to shut down the country with no clear end game and I am not sure we have had enough discussion of whether or not this is overall the right thing. We are asking many young people, families, etc to make enormous sacrifices to save a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway. Shutting businesses, the schools and the country down will undoubtedly cause much financial hardship and damage mental health, I see no easy way to balance this out myself. For example we have a six year old that is an only child, is it really fair to keep him on his own for the next 3-6mths? That seems like nigh on child cruelty to me...

Also, I wonder about those older people who are currently fit eg someone who is 78 with good health and lives alone but is out and active and social. To them 3-6 mths of isolation is actually a significant part of their quality life expectancy and I am not certain that in their position I would isolate.

I would not question the lockdown so much if I felt that the scientists and the govt had debated this and have us an idea of the costs and benefits here.

I suspect this sounds harsh to many here but it is just my uninformed opinion
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 22, 2020, 09:36:01 am
Dave, I hate to point out that everyone will die at some point and you get into pretty muddy ethics with the best interests of one individual against another arguments. 
In Wuhan,  extremely draconian measures seem to have improved the situation.  Noone knows that much about this virus yet but doesn't this seem worth a go?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on March 22, 2020, 09:45:10 am
Hi Toby

Yep I agree, I just think that we need to talk about it rather than just assume that everyone agrees with what is happening. In terms of Wuhan I also agree it looks promising but I do wonder whether or not it will just resurface somewhere else. In terms of value of life, the NHS does this all the time when it allocates scarce resources
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on March 22, 2020, 09:50:02 am
I'm concerned that Italy has far stronger social distancing measures in force than the UK at the moment but currently it doesn't seem to be working.

They introduced isolation on 9th March and shut the shops on 11th yet still the cases rise.  Hopefully they might be about to peak if it is a 2 week incubation.  Looks like we're about three weeks behind them

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

We need to isolate so that the NHS have a dripping tap to deal with rather than a bursting dam although I fear now that it's too late.  It's going to be very messy for anyone in the NHS, everyone I know who works in healthcare is pretty scared right now.  Lack of direction from management and lack of PPE equipment. Can you believe Sheffield have no FFP3 masks.

And it's not just old people dying, it's other patients not getting their treatment and operations because all resources are being deployed on this.

I was also a 3 but now a 4.  Everyone stay at home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 22, 2020, 09:55:41 am
It's going to be very messy for anyone in the NHS, everyone I know who works in healthcare is pretty scared right now.  Lack of direction from management and lack of PPE equipment. Can you believe Sheffield have no FFP3 masks.

And it's not just old people dying, it's other patients not getting their treatment and operations because all resources are being deployed on this.

I'm absolutely shitting myself at work at the moment. Half of my colleagues are in denial, the others seem to be constantly on the edge of a nervous breakdown
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 22, 2020, 09:59:08 am
If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

It’s going to be hard, after this, to respect a lot of people.

Couldn't agree more. I'm reading elsewhere that some tosser took a big fall off of Cyrn Las yesterday and had to be rescued. Should have been left to die, or self-rescue by crawling back to fucking Sussex. I hope they're being treated with the contempt they deserve in Ysbyty Gwynedd
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on March 22, 2020, 09:59:38 am
how many people die in the UK, it's ~600k/yr. Obviously 100k is a number plucked somewhat from thin air, but (big but), were this to be accurate, that's a 17% increase

Totally get your thinking here Alex but i reckon 100k would be a really good outcome from where we are now if the medium article is right, social distancing is applied loosely and the virus mutates etc. It could be really bad. 100k would just be a really bad flu season (sometimes claiming c25k) and the economy wouldn't have been turned off to prevent it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 22, 2020, 10:03:42 am
Simon.

I will post it again

Even if I moderate the language.

Ban me if you will.

What is being said here is disgusting.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 36chambers on March 22, 2020, 10:10:57 am
We are asking many young people, families, etc to make enormous sacrifices to save a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway.
...
For example we have a six year old that is an only child, is it really fair to keep him on his own for the next 3-6mths? That seems like nigh on child cruelty to me...

and my good friend has an otherwise healthy 5 year old, who is in the uber high risk category. It's about way more than just old people.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 22, 2020, 10:12:23 am
Can't help but agree with what's been said today.
In spite of agreeing that this is what needs to be done, I still predict that there will be fallout because of the shutdown. I'll posit that in about 10-15 years we'll have a phrase in usage. Corona Kid. Noun. A person of a particular generation who is socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted due to a period of necessary isolation during the 2020-21 Coronavirus pandemic.

Then there'll be those kids who are actually killed or otherwise critically neglected by their parents during the shut down.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on March 22, 2020, 10:14:40 am
If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

It’s going to be hard, after this, to respect a lot of people.

Couldn't agree more. I'm reading elsewhere that some tosser took a big fall off of Cyrn Las yesterday and had to be rescued. Should have been left to die, or self-rescue by crawling back to fucking Sussex. I hope they're being treated with the contempt they deserve in Ysbyty Gwynedd

I really don’t think this kind of language or way of discussing things is acceptable. I think if you feel this way you are better not posting at all. I would much rather we have a vigorous discussion about what is acceptable etc and try to see each other’s points of view without resorting to black and white offensive statements as above

Dave
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 22, 2020, 10:18:22 am
I really don’t think this kind of language or way of discussing things is acceptable.

Fair enough. I didn't up until a week or so ago either.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 22, 2020, 10:21:35 am
In the short term full lockdown is necessary. Its unrealistic to expect people will behave in societies best interests without hard rules.
In the longer term, once infection rates are under control, I think a staggered weekend should be introduced. The traditional shared weekend is pointless and counterproductive when kids aren't at school and most are working from home or not working. It just funnels everyone out of the house at the same time. Social distancing would be much more achievable if the load was spread across 7 days rather than 2. But only once infection rates have been suppressed by lock down.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 10:23:38 am
Totally get your thinking here Alex but i reckon 100k would be a really good outcome from where we are now if the medium article is right, social distancing is applied loosely and the virus mutates etc. It could be really bad.

Yeah, I fear you're right, I was just struck by Tomtom's post, because at 100k (just the number he wrote down) it's not clear to me that a 12 month lockdown would be worth it. Purely from a tax and spend perspective, the economic difference would probably be so large that you could (in theory) take the difference in government coffers between the two scenarios and spend that money on increased funding elsewhere to save more than 100k lives. The numbers here are conjecture, but I'm sure you get the general point. As I write this it occurs to me that the gov is no doubt doing the same sums behind closed doors, and that the shudowns and resulting stimulus package we've already seen might imply that they're pretty scared about how big the numbers could get.

If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

I didn't see your post before it was removed so I only have Muencher's quote to go off, but I'd suggest you've not really thought hard about this. Every time you drive to the crag you increase the chances of someone dying in an RTA (indeed, this is being used as an example of why not to drive to places further away right now). But you, and I, still do it, despite the fact that that you believe that that makes you, and I, a fucking cunt. It's all probabilities and stats, and there's a debate to be had about where those probabilities and stats sit, whether the self-righteous vitue-signalling part of you likes it or not.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on March 22, 2020, 10:25:29 am
I'll posit that in about 10-15 years we'll have a phrase in usage. Corona Kid. Noun. A person of a particular generation who is socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted due to a period of necessary isolation during the 2020-21 Coronavirus pandemic.

Then there'll be those kids who are actually killed or otherwise critically neglected by their parents during the shut down.

Similarly there could be several thousand NHS staff who'll never return to work and spend the rest of their lives on benefits suffering with PTSD.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 22, 2020, 10:30:46 am
I'll posit that in about 10-15 years we'll have a phrase in usage. Corona Kid. Noun. A person of a particular generation who is socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted due to a period of necessary isolation during the 2020-21 Coronavirus pandemic.

Then there'll be those kids who are actually killed or otherwise critically neglected by their parents during the shut down.

Similarly there could be several thousand NHS staff who'll never return to work and spend the rest of their lives on benefits suffering with PTSD.

Yes. That too. Just to clarify again, I'm not saying that the lockdown shouldn't happen, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that it will be consequence free.

I'm not completely ignorant of the risks to NHS staff either. My wife could be recalled from maternity as she is a nurse.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mikester on March 22, 2020, 10:33:34 am
I can see a schism developing in the climbing community similar to the miners' strikes of the 80s. We're not there yet, and I hope I'm getting ahead of myself, but if climbing outside becomes restricted, either by mandate or by some kind of community consensus, then those who flout the restriction could be the modern scabs. I grew up in an area hard hit by the pit closures and the social ostracism of scabs was severe.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 22, 2020, 10:35:25 am
Since Simon didn’t like my last post...

If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.

If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.

My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter  hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.

As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.

Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.

Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.

If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.



 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy W on March 22, 2020, 10:52:11 am
Since Simon didn’t like my last post...

If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.

If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.

My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter  hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.

As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.

Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.

Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.

If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.


Completely with you on this Matt. Here in France there is still a debate about what you can and can't do, as if finding loopholes is somehow a worthwhile thing to do. Get a grip people!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 22, 2020, 10:53:43 am
If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

It’s going to be hard, after this, to respect a lot of people.

Couldn't agree more. I'm reading elsewhere that some tosser took a big fall off of Cyrn Las yesterday and had to be rescued. Should have been left to die, or self-rescue by crawling back to fucking Sussex. I hope they're being treated with the contempt they deserve in Ysbyty Gwynedd

I really don’t think this kind of language or way of discussing things is acceptable. I think if you feel this way you are better not posting at all. I would much rather we have a vigorous discussion about what is acceptable etc and try to see each other’s points of view without resorting to black and white offensive statements as above

Dave

I see you were assuming I was referring to you?

Why is that?

No. My opinion of people who think this way, is not going to change because you are upset by swear words.

It’s not a debate, is it? It is the wholesale dismissal of thousands of human beings, simply because the person doing the dismissing believes themselves outside the categories to be dismissed.

There are always hard decisions to be made. Like many others, I’ve made a few myself. This is not such a hard decision. Or at least it shouldn’t be.

If we lose our business and have to start again, so be it.
It will be the third time for me, starting again with nothing, it hurts, I’m too old for that shit again, but I will do it, we will do it; even if it saved a single life.

I’m letting my children read these threads, I want them to understand what happens when things get hard and why people think the way they do.
Make of that what you will.
Ultimately, it’s possible to justify almost anything, with seemingly impeccable logic.

Go for it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tc on March 22, 2020, 11:02:45 am
Since Simon didn’t like my last post...

If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.

If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.

My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter  hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.

As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.

Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.

Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.

If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.


Completely with you on this Matt. Here in France there is still a debate about what you can and can't do, as if finding loopholes is somehow a worthwhile thing to do. Get a grip people!

Amen to that, brethren. Recommended reading for anyone still thinking about finding loopholes:

 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html?utm_source=fb&fbclid=IwAR03kX55HtUS8tvRwiXw8E_Uf6JEjkENPKAcX-Lp-veBycQJ5koN_NsjgJc

Stay safe.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 22, 2020, 11:09:23 am
This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

My ex is on immunosuppressants for rheumatoid arthritis; our son is firmly staying with me and not going anywhere near her for the duration.

She is also btw a pharma project manager with expertise in late stage clinical trials, so could (hopefully) be a handy person to still have around in a few months.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 22, 2020, 11:12:12 am
There are likely about 1 million people infected by the virus in UK.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340066404_Predicting_the_number_of_COVID-19_cases_from_the_reported_number_of_deaths

A few of you already have the virus.

The new trolley dilemma:

You are in a trolley. On the track infront of you there are people. Do you break?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 22, 2020, 11:16:52 am
 :
Since Simon didn’t like my last post...

If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.

If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.

My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter  hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.

As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.

Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.

Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.

If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.
Question:
This is a genuine example. I have a friend who is a severe asthmatic. His partner is a key worker in the NHS. As such he is forced to isolate from his partner and young kids in his (small) living room. Normally he's an extremely active individual (running, climbing, cycling, gym). Does your blanket condemnation extend to him if he chose to venture out and did so in a truly solo safe way? What about off duty physically and mentally exhausted NHS workers?
I'm not offering an answer. I'm just interested to know how absolute a position you're taking.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 22, 2020, 11:25:46 am
Totally get your thinking here Alex but i reckon 100k would be a really good outcome from where we are now if the medium article is right, social distancing is applied loosely and the virus mutates etc. It could be really bad.

Yeah, I fear you're right, I was just struck by Tomtom's post, because at 100k (just the number he wrote down) it's not clear to me that a 12 month lockdown would be worth it. Purely from a tax and spend perspective, the economic difference would probably be so large that you could (in theory) take the difference in government coffers between the two scenarios and spend that money on increased funding elsewhere to save more than 100k lives. The numbers here are conjecture, but I'm sure you get the general point. As I write this it occurs to me that the gov is no doubt doing the same sums behind closed doors, and that the shudowns and resulting stimulus package we've already seen might imply that they're pretty scared about how big the numbers could get.

If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

I didn't see your post before it was removed so I only have Muencher's quote to go off, but I'd suggest you've not really thought hard about this. Every time you drive to the crag you increase the chances of someone dying in an RTA (indeed, this is being used as an example of why not to drive to places further away right now). But you, and I, still do it, despite the fact that that you believe that that makes you, and I, a fucking cunt. It's all probabilities and stats, and there's a debate to be had about where those probabilities and stats sit, whether the self-righteous vitue-signalling part of you likes it or not.

Alex, Bonjoy, I’m not really talking about people going to the crag.

I can see a thousand ways to make that as safe as taking a shower at home and the risk of RTA is no greater than that on your next food run. It is less important, but no riskier.

I’m talking about the way all three threads about this bloody virus, keep swinging back to the “it’s not worth it” line.

It is.

The worst part of that, of course, is that if what is done helps and we reduce the death and suffering (can we just stop calling it “numbers”? Face the reality, it’s real people, experiencing real pain, suffering and death), then those same people will be whinging forever how their loss wasn’t worth it.

Nice, for them, to get to whinge and hopefully they get a long healthy life to do it in.

It is mother’s day and that’s a hard day here, probably partly why I’ve snapped, finally. So I’m out.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 22, 2020, 11:49:53 am
OMM for what it's worth I agree we need hard suppression measures asap.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 22, 2020, 11:59:13 am
a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway.

Yeah, fuck 'em.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 22, 2020, 12:29:05 pm
As above, it's not just the elderly. There are people who post on this board who are immuno-suppressed, or their partner is, or someone they love is otherwise at risk.

I completely understand Matt's post, and brutal language is useful for shocking others into action. But. We're in the process of a complete paradigm shift in what is acceptable. The rate of progression of public thought over the past week has been unlike anything we've ever known. It is regrettable, but ultimately understandable, that various people in different demographics are at different points on the progression. If we rip each other to shreds with a complete scorched earth policy in this transition period then the long months ahead are going to be made much more unpleasant.

UKB should be like family. We need to stick together and be decent to each other.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 22, 2020, 12:36:11 pm
Amen to that, brethren. Recommended reading for anyone still thinking about finding loopholes:

 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html?utm_source=fb&fbclid=IwAR03kX55HtUS8tvRwiXw8E_Uf6JEjkENPKAcX-Lp-veBycQJ5koN_NsjgJc

Stay safe.

 :o
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 22, 2020, 12:46:19 pm
As above, it's not just the elderly. There are people who post on this board who are immuno-suppressed, or their partner is, or someone they love is otherwise at risk.

I completely understand Matt's post, and brutal language is useful for shocking others into action. But. We're in the process of a complete paradigm shift in what is acceptable. The rate of progression of public thought over the past week has been unlike anything we've ever known. It is regrettable, but ultimately understandable, that various people in different demographics are at different points on the progression. If we rip each other to shreds with a complete scorched earth policy in this transition period then the long months ahead are going to be made much more unpleasant.

UKB should be like family. We need to stick together and be decent to each other.

Yes, my wife is seriously ill in hospital with an auto-immune disease and my daughter is a type 1 diabetic.

If Davo wants to say that "a large number" of elderly people might die, but so be it, then I'm sorry but I'm just not going to find that a "relatable" position.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on March 22, 2020, 12:47:52 pm
Yep, emotional subject. This is going to be very serious. Yet plenty of people carrying on as normal - all sorts of mothers day meet ups are happening today and the thinking even among those thinking seriously about it is often why not - it hasn't been banned - I am keeping social distance etc. Not enough you arent.

In wuhan they allowed one person out per household every three days to buy food. Really good compliance. That got it licked. Current uk policy though obviously changed quite a bit in a week feels like the duck and cover policy when the A bombs start going off.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on March 22, 2020, 01:00:54 pm
a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway.

Yeah, fuck 'em.

Doesn’t really seem a fair reflection of what I wrote. Possibly you should read it again?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on March 22, 2020, 01:14:13 pm

[/quote]

Yes, my wife is seriously ill in hospital with an auto-immune disease and my daughter is a type 1 diabetic.

If Davo wants to say that "a large number" of elderly people might die, but so be it, then I'm sorry but I'm just not going to find that a "relatable" position.
[/quote]

I hope sincerely that you and your family stay safe. I have not at any point said “so be it”. My point is that any option here comes with serious harm attached. The long term issues from what we are doing are hard to see but they will certainly entail a large amount of financial hardship for a large number of families with people who are self employed and the main bread winner. This period seems to me guaranteed to result in an increase in mental health issues due to financial stresses. The effects of our school age children will be very hard to determine. I have no idea what stressing the importance of keeping 2 metres away from everyone and being ultra clean etc  is likely to do to the psyche of your average child - nothing good I am sure! I think most people would agree that the financial crisis of 2008 caused serious harm to many people for example in terms of health outcomes etc and especially hit the poorest hardest. This is (in my opinion) what will happen here again.

If you think that I am being heartless then I really don’t think you have read my post at all. I am simply saying what we are doing comes with a consequence and that it is not straightforward to weigh up the right answer.

Also, allocation of scarce resources with serious consequences for lives is something that we live with on a day to day basis. The allocation of money into various areas of the NHS all comes with trade offs. The money we pump into paediatrics can not be pumped into elderly care and vice versa. These decisions cost and also save lives at the same time.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 22, 2020, 01:17:42 pm
The reason I come here - a lot - and eschew Ukc is the quality of debate. To me that means if you are incensed by a post, replying calmly.

It would be a shame to lose the ability of the forum to discuss things, especially very difficult and contentious things, productively.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 22, 2020, 01:35:57 pm
Davo you’ve written about talking about the options and having a discussion here before deciding on a course of action. Who do you think should be having these conversations? Do you not think they’ve already happened at government level (assuming this is what lead the rapid change from the BS ‘herd immunity’ strategy.

It’s hard to see how the government could decide to take any course besides those taken by other countries when it’s not going to take much variation in spread of the virus and fatality rate (not just from virus but over run ICU etc.) to put us into millions of deaths.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 22, 2020, 01:47:25 pm
More back onto this narrow Covid topic, Brimham closed

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/brimham-rocks
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 22, 2020, 01:54:29 pm
Have we not decided on a course of action as a society and whether we personally agree with the approach should be immaterial in how closely we follow the rules. Otherwise as a society we still get all of the negatives of the social isolation policy but also thousands of unnecessary deaths. Just because some people think that as they know best the rules shouldn't apply to them.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 01:56:51 pm
Have we not decided on a course of action as a society and whether we personally agree with the approach should be immaterial in how closely we follow the rules. Otherwise as a society we still get all of the negatives of the social isolation policy but also thousands of unnecessary deaths. Just because some people think that as they know best the rules shouldn't apply to them.

This doesn't seem really to tie into the debate given that the rules currently allow for all sorts of outdoor climbing, just not close to other people.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on March 22, 2020, 02:25:24 pm
Hi Teestub

Yes, I think it should be the government and I think they should publish their thinking and reasoning. Personally from what I have read and heard I can’t see that they have done what I would like but I am happy to be corrected.

Dave
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: J pratt on March 22, 2020, 02:45:21 pm
I saw on ukc logbooks kaluza Klein got a lead yesterday.ffs
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 22, 2020, 02:49:43 pm
I'm sorry if I was intemperate, I would never wish to drive anyway from here. But Davo, though you may not have said "so be it" your post is extremely difficult to read in any other way. I understand there are consequences to every choice we make. My son works in hospitality and could very well lose his job, something that would be catastrophic for him. But, and I think this is what Teestub was saying, I find the idea that there is still somehow a debate to be had about this baffling. Yes, there are hard to calculate consequences from every possible course of action. But let's not pretend there's not a growing body of evidence about what does and doesn't work.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 22, 2020, 03:16:49 pm
Alex - I thought tomtoms post earlier summed up why climbing should be avoided. Basically it is non essential travel and social contact. What do you think the government have asked us to do?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 22, 2020, 03:45:33 pm
Can I just say, the starting point for any decision-making in this situation (and this debate) must be the evidence. Most of the evidence about the health implications of different approaches to COVID is summarised in the Imperial College paper, which anyone debating on here should read. As many times as it takes to absorb and then reflect.

More evidence will emerge in time on the social and economic impacts of our approaches.

Seems to me that the two factors that will most change the cost-benefit outlook are:
1. Time
2. Vaccine/anti-viral

If we were a world of automatons facing a new computer virus that spread via automatons meeting each other, then it'd be a no-brainer (literally!) for our automaton society to attempt to suppress COVID using every measure open to it. I.e. the total shutdown of all movement except the vital necessities to keeping society in existence.   

We aren't automatons. Obviously emotions, sentiment and power structures cloud the picture and the cost-benefit involves human life. So the ideal choice is more fuzzy. I still think the only rational choice in the short-term is as complete a shutdown of movement as possible while keeping the vital functions of society going.

Over time, given no progress in vaccine trials or anti-viral, then that picture would likely change. But if a vaccine was found in 6 months from now, how would people feel about arguing right now at this point near the beginning that it wasn't worth the cost-benefit of totally shutting down in the short-term? It must be worth at least the short-term pain of trying to make it work, if not more.

Conclusion from the ICL paper on which the UK's (world's..) current approach is based:
Quote
Perhaps our most significant conclusion is that mitigation is unlikely to be feasible without emergency surge capacity limits of the UK and US healthcare systems being exceeded many times over. In the most effective mitigation strategy examined, which leads to a single, relatively short epidemic (case isolation, household quarantine and social distancing of the elderly), the surge limits for both general ward and ICU beds would be exceeded by at least 8-fold under the more optimistic scenario for critical care requirements that we examined. In addition, even if all patients were able to be treated, we predict there would still be in the order of 250,000 deaths in GB, and 1.1-1.2 million in the US.
In the UK, this conclusion has only been reached in the last few days, with the refinement of estimates of likely ICU demand due to COVID-19 based on experience in Italy and the UK (previous planning estimates assumed half the demand now estimated) and with the NHS providing increasing certainty around the limits of hospital surge capacity.
We therefore conclude that epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time. The social and economic effects of the measures which are needed to achieve this policy goal will be profound. Many countries have adopted such measures already, but even those countries at an earlier stage of their epidemic (such as the UK) will need to do so imminently.
Our analysis informs the evaluation of both the nature of the measures required to suppress COVID19 and the likely duration that these measures will need to be in place. Results in this paper have informed policymaking in the UK and other countries in the last weeks. However, we emphasise that is not at all certain that suppression will succeed long term; no public health intervention with such disruptive effects on society has been previously attempted for such a long duration of time. How populations and societies will respond remains unclear.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 03:49:17 pm
Alex - I thought tomtoms post earlier summed up why climbing should be avoided. Basically it is non essential travel and social contact. What do you think the government have asked us to do?

Your post was talking about rules. I'm not saying there aren't good reasons for giving up climbing at the moment, just that it doesn't really break any of the rules. That's the exact problem - I think it's easier to have more rules and less leaving it open to interpretation. Perhaps I've missed it but to me it seems that the talk has all been about social distancing and avoiding unnecessary social interactions. Until the Welsh gov tweet earlier today using the term non-essential travel, I think I'd only seen the gov use it in FCO advice about foreign travel, not movement domestically.

As an aside, but on the same general point, I think when the gov goes to the next step it should go hard and immediate. When the pubs were about to shut people went out for one last time. When you think lockdown is coming it's very tempting to nip out for a secluded climb. When you think lockdown 2.0 is coming (no-exercise outside the home stage), it will be very tempting to be going out for a run or bike ride because you're still allowed to etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 22, 2020, 04:37:09 pm
Perhaps I should have said advice rather than rules and I totally agree the government haven't been clear at all. I'm sure soon we will have a France/Italy style ban and know where we stand. It was a similar lack of leadership with the pubs but when it was advice rather than a ban i'm sure most us thought the people still going out drinking were idiots - even if it was in a quiet pub!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 04:46:41 pm
Yeah, I think maybe it's just easy to kid ourselves because it's obvious that people going to pubs and cafes are being idiots, but less visible as far as touching climbing holds a day later goes.

Anyway, over the course of today you can count my vote as having moved from option 3 to option 4 in the poll. Guess April is fingerboard month.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 22, 2020, 04:47:29 pm
[Perhaps I've missed it but to me it seems that the talk has all been about social distancing and avoiding unnecessary social interactions.

Updated today
“The government has also urged the public to take further steps to protect themselves and the wider population from the coronavirus, including: 

- Everyone to stay at home unless they need to get essential supplies such as food and medicines.
- All those able to  work from home  to do so, unless their work is essential. 
- Only traveling if absolutely necessary - while public transport won’t stop, this should only be used for essential travel  - for example by key workers to travel to and from work. “

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-further-measures-on-social-distancing

These still aren’t ‘rules’ but I bet they will be by the end of this week.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mikester on March 22, 2020, 04:55:50 pm
And there we have it!

Now just waiting for the CV Bill to become law...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 05:00:06 pm
Looks like it was from yesterday? In which case they've not done a very good job of pushing it hard IMO
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 22, 2020, 05:38:03 pm
That advice settles the question then. I think Barrows is correct that the previous advice was against non-essential international or intercity travel (might have got that wrong). This left room to go off to the country, which is now off the cards if we are to be compliant.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 05:41:45 pm
I have the guardian love updates rolling in the background.. despite the last few posts, based on the updates of the ongoing press conference, it basically sounds like the gov is fine with us going climbing and the like  :shrug: if we're genuinely supposed to be avoiding non essential travel this is not being communicated adequately...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 22, 2020, 05:55:01 pm
Looks like it was from yesterday? In which case they've not done a very good job of pushing it hard IMO

Watching the press briefing at the moment and couldn't agree more. Extremely confusing position being taken by both Boris and the Deputy CMO; on the one hand saying that people should still go outside and take exercise whilst practising social distancing, then on the other saying stay indoors.

Boris even said something along the lines of he was "following the science and the science is saying that the benefits of outdoor exercise outweigh the negative impacts of increased transmission".

The Deputy CMO has at least been a little clearer in saying that it's those gathering outside who are creating a risk.

But either way, they're still effectively saying that option 3 in the poll is okay (not necessarily my position, but that's what they're saying).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 22, 2020, 06:03:13 pm
Just watched the brief and yeah, you could arguably interpret the advice as option 3 on the UKB poll if you wanted to justify going climbing.

You could also arguably interpret the advice as don't go outside except: to buy food/medicine, work if unable to WFH, and limited exercise close to home by yourself or with other householder.

It all depends what you're trying to justify doesn't it. Climbing? Or behaving in ways that *minimise* potential for transmission - thus behaving in ways that potentially save the most lives down the transmission chain.

Who do you want to be?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on March 22, 2020, 06:15:25 pm
It needs to be a lot clearer than ambiguous if it's to be taken up. Millions of people went to see their mums today and millions more in the week will be having birthday parties kiddie meet ups and rambling get togethers.

It could be really straight forward. Stay indoors unless your life depends on it. Essential services only. Do that and this thing would be over in a month. Dont do that and it's going to last a long time.

Anyone see how busy it was today? Was the peak full again parking logjammed at curbar gap? I'm betting it was pretty bad. Pubs had a mini new years eve on friday. It really needs to be spelt out really clearly for a good fraction of folk.

Maybe I'm overdoing it. Probably am. Hope I am. But that medium article about the big picture and the other one about transmission sort of left me cold.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 06:17:45 pm
Just listened to the press conference out of interest, to see how the rolling news updates reflected it. If I were just taking my advice from gov press conferences I would be going outside climbing tomorrow...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 22, 2020, 06:30:35 pm

You could also arguably interpret the advice as don't go outside except: to buy food/medicine, work if unable to WFH, and limited exercise close to home by yourself or with other householder.

This is my take on the current advice.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 06:35:49 pm
But isn't this the problem, surely we shouldn't need to have a take on it because it's explicit and well communicated??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 22, 2020, 06:40:08 pm

You could also arguably interpret the advice as don't go outside except: to buy food/medicine, work if unable to WFH, and limited exercise close to home by yourself or with other householder.

This is my take on the current advice.

Yup.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 22, 2020, 07:20:40 pm
But isn't this the problem, surely we shouldn't need to have a take on it because it's explicit and well communicated??

In a perfect world yes. But I'd say the *most important* problem is there's a microbe spreading rapidly among us which kills people.

Which is the more pressing problem *right now*: clarity of message or trying to reduce spread of microbes killing people?


edit, yes I'm aware this isn't the only dangerous microbe which is spread by social contact.The important considerations  are the relative lethality versus the relative triviality of not doing some everyday things for now. Obvs.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on March 22, 2020, 07:51:26 pm
Good update from the Peak District National Park:

Coronavirus Update – Sunday 22 March

The Peak District National Park has seen extremely high numbers of visitors in recent days.

The government has been clear on the need to avoid unnecessary contact with others to maintain the social distancing measures that are vital for us all to help reduce the impact of Coronavirus (COVID-19). It is important that we all consider our social responsibilities to help tackle this outbreak, and as government advice states, travel should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. This is no more important than in the Peak District, which is a living and working landscape and community for many thousands of people.

These are unprecedented times for us all, and this situation remains fast-moving, complex and challenging.

If your visit to the National Park is not absolutely necessary, please consider alternative green spaces closer to home, and we will update our coronavirus pages regularly with how government guidance may affect our activities.

Working together we can all help during this coronavirus crisis and the National Park, our businesses and communities will be ready to welcome everyone when it is once again safe to do so.

Thank you, and stay safe.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 22, 2020, 08:00:09 pm


Guess April is fingerboard month.

And May and June poss a bit of July.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Falling Down on March 22, 2020, 08:11:26 pm

You could also arguably interpret the advice as don't go outside except: to buy food/medicine, work if unable to WFH, and limited exercise close to home by yourself or with other householder.

This is my take on the current advice.

Yup.

Yep.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: GazM on March 22, 2020, 08:13:42 pm
Fascinating discussion, keep it up folks.
It was the same up in the Highlands this weekend. Yesterday I went to a minor boulder 15mins from home that I've never ever seen other people at in my 10 years of regular visits and there were people there yesterday, aiming to escape other popular places I guess. Fortunately they were leaving as i arrived but still, a surprise.
My dilemma is what constitutes essential travel. I'm a self employed ecologist and work currently involves driving to remote forests in the Highlands to spend the day doing surveys without seeing anyone else, then driving home again. I'm isolated from any one all day long. Its work that can't be done from home but it's not essential for society to function. But it is essential for my bank balance. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 22, 2020, 08:17:35 pm


Guess April is fingerboard month.

And May and June poss a bit of July.

They're rehab months after my elbows explode
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 22, 2020, 08:26:07 pm
Fascinating discussion, keep it up folks.
It was the same up in the Highlands this weekend. Yesterday I went to a minor boulder 15mins from home that I've never ever seen other people at in my 10 years of regular visits and there were people there yesterday, aiming to escape other popular places I guess. Fortunately they were leaving as i arrived but still, a surprise.
My dilemma is what constitutes essential travel. I'm a self employed ecologist and work currently involves driving to remote forests in the Highlands to spend the day doing surveys without seeing anyone else, then driving home again. I'm isolated from any one all day long. Its work that can't be done from home but it's not essential for society to function. But it is essential for my bank balance. Thoughts?

Sounds unlikely you could transfer or pick up the virus during your working day?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on March 22, 2020, 08:29:34 pm
Only obvious necessary contact is re-fueling?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on March 22, 2020, 08:32:19 pm
Fascinating discussion, keep it up folks.
It was the same up in the Highlands this weekend. Yesterday I went to a minor boulder 15mins from home that I've never ever seen other people at in my 10 years of regular visits and there were people there yesterday, aiming to escape other popular places I guess. Fortunately they were leaving as i arrived but still, a surprise.
My dilemma is what constitutes essential travel. I'm a self employed ecologist and work currently involves driving to remote forests in the Highlands to spend the day doing surveys without seeing anyone else, then driving home again. I'm isolated from any one all day long. Its work that can't be done from home but it's not essential for society to function. But it is essential for my bank balance. Thoughts?

Word on the twitter-sphere is an announcement to be made tomorrow about the self-employed. My works gone, but I've got the kids anyway.

I've been banging on on the other channel about knocking climbing on the head. Putting food on the table is another ball game. Don't envy you.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: GazM on March 22, 2020, 08:35:04 pm
I filled the car using pay at pump yesterday, so this week's fuel is sorted.
And yeah, pretty much no chance of meeting anyone while out working. But still, it feels a bit odd when the general feeling is that you should only really be leaving the house to buy food.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on March 22, 2020, 08:49:29 pm
Still have to touch pump handles etc.? Worth being aware of.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 22, 2020, 08:52:06 pm
All work is essential. Essential for the worker, the business and the overall economy.

My guess is a lot might bank on the 80% salary being paid and sit back but it’s not yet clear what is defined as not being able to work. It’s my intention to keep doing everything we can until we are literally stopped from doing so.
Pretty much same attitude to my climbing.

As an aside the golf course I live on is packed. Club house shut but course couldn’t be busier.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 22, 2020, 08:52:47 pm
Caught up on the thread, which has been great reading. Solidarity everyone  :boxing:

GazM, I think you're fine for working as far as I can see? Stick some gloves on for refueling and you've ticked every box.

I went climbing and walking this weekend. I enjoyed the walking significantly more. The climbing left me stressed out about either the amount of people already at the crag or the potential for others to turn up. I think that might be it for me until things change but still deciding, as I can definitely see the benefits of getting out somewhere quiet. As to how that's enforced, god only knows. I don't get out on the week so fortunately won't need to consider it for a while. I would welcome a lockdown to clarify things for everyone. Pictures of a rammed north Wales and Malham made me feel very uncomfortable.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 22, 2020, 09:00:13 pm
What a cluster fuck from the government and media on this.

Talk about mixed messages.

In his presser Boris seemed to make it clear that ‘congregations’ of people should not happen (how many in a congregation?) - and that the scenes seen in some places around the country were not great. But then it was fine to go out to the park as long as you don’t get closer than 2m... the problem is you could go somewhere busy and still be 2m apart...

And the (updated one hour ago) advice in the BBC website implies it’s fine to drive to wherever and go for a walk etc... just stay 2m away.

But the govt advice as quoted here is no unnecessary journeys.

No wonder we’re going round and round (a bit) on this thread. What a fucking lack of clarity from the government and mainstream media.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on March 22, 2020, 09:07:41 pm
Germany just introduced max groups of 2.
They were warned over the weekend to behave, guess that didn't get through.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on March 22, 2020, 09:08:30 pm
Where is the avoid unnecessary travel?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-on-social-distancing-and-for-vulnerable-people/guidance-on-social-distancing-for-everyone-in-the-uk-and-protecting-older-people-and-vulnerable-adults

says unnecessary transport on public transport. Was updated 20th march.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 22, 2020, 09:12:58 pm
I linked it one page ago  :coffee:

They seem to have helpfully split into two pages rather than updating one main one...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 22, 2020, 09:13:29 pm
Re: petrol stations. Gloves are provided. Unbelievably, at Keighley earlier in the week, they were left unused by 50% of the patrons. Why would you choose NOT to use them?

I might have jumped the gun on unnecessary travel and just gone off what was said by somebody else. Very frustrating. The country is crying out for clear, unambiguous guidance. It should be so simple to provide.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: GazM on March 22, 2020, 09:18:29 pm
Its here DunnyG: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-further-measures-on-social-distancing

Thanks for the replies to my earlier post. Makes me feel a bit better about working this week, although I fully expect it'll be out of my hands by the end of the week.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 22, 2020, 09:23:30 pm
I do the admin role for the North Wales Climbers facebook page (ironically, as I have a general dislike of social media).

This evening I posted this as a sticky post at the top of the page (and no this is not virtue signalling, I'm not after likes or karma harvesting, it just seems to me the correct action):

''The government's latest daily COVID advice as it relates to climbing can be interpreted in one of two ways:

1. You can arguably interpret the advice as allowing climbing, if you wanted to justify going climbing.

2. You can arguably interpret the advice as don't go outside except:
i. to buy food/medicine,

ii. to work if you are unable to WFH,

iii. and to take limited exercise close to home by yourself or with another with who you share the house.

It all depends what you're trying to justify. Climbing? Or behaving in ways that *minimise* potential for transmissions - thus behaving in ways that potentially save the most lives down the transmission chain.

Who do you want to be?

What's clear is congregating with others, however essential the reason, spreads COVID-19.

That doesn't mean there's one easy answer to 'should I go climbing', nor are there any justifications for ostracising others who we should assume are acting with good intentions, even if possibly not good sense.

It won't do a lot, but no further posts for climbing partners, conditions info or beta will be accepted on this page until we're in a better, clearer situation.''
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 22, 2020, 09:25:59 pm
I filled the car using pay at pump yesterday, so this week's fuel is sorted.
And yeah, pretty much no chance of meeting anyone while out working. But still, it feels a bit odd when the general feeling is that you should only really be leaving the house to buy food.

For what it’s worth, state of emergency lockdown over here (Bavaria) specifically  allows going to work if wfh isn’t an option. For now. Drive carefully.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on March 22, 2020, 09:26:23 pm
Cheers, sorry teestub, im finding it hard to stay in top of all the info. Sounds like unless that crags in your garden, you are going against advice.

Id probably work if I were you, but id be paranoid about touching anything, e.g. gates etc.. Good luck!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 22, 2020, 10:07:32 pm
The only people I trust on this are experts with experience from Asia. They say that the lockdown in Lombardy is way too lax.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 22, 2020, 10:33:05 pm
Interesting post from a BMC rep on the other channel https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/um__folks__we_need_to_talk_about_this-717331?v=1#x9155556  Sounds like they will be taking a firm line from tomorrow.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mikester on March 23, 2020, 07:46:29 am
And yeah, pretty much no chance of meeting anyone while out working. But still, it feels a bit odd when the general feeling is that you should only really be leaving the house to buy food.

I'm in the same boat with my work (ecology/environmental). I've been happy to curtail my climbing and outdoorsy stuff and assoc. journeys but find myself saying yes to work offers. Hopefully CIEEM will come out with some mealy-mouthed advice!

On the driving thing, I'm not sure it's just refueling that brings risk. There are potential breakdowns, RTAs, medical emergencies - affecting me directly or indirectly, as a passerby/responder - none of which are expected but all of which I've experienced many times.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on March 23, 2020, 08:40:50 am
It was interesting yesterday, to drive by burbage north, past thousands of cars..

(parked all over the moor - 6 cars parked out on the moor by the elbow, on the path to the cowper stone which I've never seen before)

.. but I actually scanned the crag, and nobody was climbing.. on the way out, I could see one person at remergence, on the way back nobody.  Which was actually heartening.

We'd been out to Hathersage to see my mum who's in her 70s, has had a stroke, is on immuno-suppressants for all sorts of conditions.   We stood around at the end of her drive, some 5 meters away for 20mins and had a chat.  All very surreal.

Her and her partner, whilst fully into the self isolating thing, don't seem to get the gravity of it all.  He seems to think that its ok for him to head into town, go shopping etc just cause mums at home.  They just dont seem to get it.

To quote her partner, "Well your mum might be one of the 1.8 million vulnerable ones"  .. no shit Sherlock. 

I'm coming round to thinking that mine, and my wife's parents (her mum has stomach cancer and has just finished 4 heavy rounds of chemo). will not likely survive this, if we end up like Italy, which is the direction we're rapidly heading.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 23, 2020, 09:06:27 am
Must he very hard Sam. I am really very relieved now that my last close elderly relative died in January
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: James Malloch on March 23, 2020, 09:09:06 am
Cheers, sorry teestub, im finding it hard to stay in top of all the info. Sounds like unless that crags in your garden, you are going against advice.

Id probably work if I were you, but id be paranoid about touching anything, e.g. gates etc.. Good luck!

I had a gate opening stick this weekend to avoid any contact  ;D
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 23, 2020, 09:28:12 am
Must he very hard Sam. I am really very relieved now that my last close elderly relative died in January

I'm not sure it's relief, but I had similar thoughts about my own parents. However, my late wife's parents are still alive and in their 80s. I worry about them but sadly we're estranged at the moment.

Your situation sounds tough Sam; I hope they make it through.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 23, 2020, 09:43:45 am
My recently deceased relative was in a care home with severe dementia. Care homes over here now have an absolute ban on visitors, and staff in rooms only in protective gear. He would have been utterly bewildered and terrified - although probably not for very long.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fatneck on March 23, 2020, 09:53:12 am
The Wife and I met up briefly with Fiend at a terrible Wirral venue on Sat PM. He was much better at social distancing than I. Looking likely we will not be climbing in the foreseeable but feeling lucky that I have a park on my doorstep that I can run and fish in without using the car or going more than 2k from my house. This is going to be a Godsend in the coming weeks / months...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 23, 2020, 10:33:18 am
Must he very hard Sam. I am really very relieved now that my last close elderly relative died in January

I'm not sure it's relief, but I had similar thoughts about my own parents. However, my late wife's parents are still alive and in their 80s. I worry about them but sadly we're estranged at the moment.

Your situation sounds tough Sam; I hope they make it through.

My late wife’s mother is a nurse, living in Lecco (Lombardy), working in a care home. In her late 60’s herself. My eldest daughter (14) has cottoned on to her risky position, but seems stoic.
The kids are close to her and she’s a fit, mountain climbing, woman. They would normally spend a chunk  of their summer holidays with her on the farm, quite high up in the Carpathians above Campulung in Romania.
 I was supposed to go out this year too. I was largely estranged from the extended family there, due to disputes about Lili’s treatments towards the end and have been building bridges again for the past couple of years.
That’s not going to happen. I might have left it too late. I regret that.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 23, 2020, 10:37:05 am
Just been to Sainsbury’s, the bakery and post office wearing a mask.

People looking at me in horror.

I don’t disagree with most of what’s been posted here about bouldering, but I do think we need some perspective.

At the moment, given the collective denial of a massive swathe of the population, it might be more helpful to nip down the shops in a mask than stay at home!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: steveri on March 23, 2020, 10:46:27 am
I climbed Saturday, 10 mins from home, only me on the crag, fresh chalk - first one up there in a while. Steady stream of people out for a stroll. Said hello to a climber on the way out (as it happens late 60s/70+). Car park was rammed when I got back, busiest I've seen it. My cold is back again today, I don't think it's *that* one but I've stopped my (immuno suppressant) arthritis meds again. I feel like a dick, wanting my 2h of entertainment.

This thing's moving so fast that yesterday's opinion counts for nothing and we'd all do well to be hyper cautious.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 23, 2020, 10:51:43 am
I cycled past Quernmore yesterday and it was pretty eye opening to see that despite the car parks (used mainly by walkers I'd say) at places like Windy Clough being closed (barriers), people had just parked on the road and carried on as normal. As if seeing the place they intended to park closed off didn't even make them reconsider.

 :tumble:

I'm not talking one or two cars either. I saw very few people on bikes and no groups. Gisburn Forest (MTB trails etc.) is being closed by the Forestry Commission but you can park at various track/entrances (and people do to avoid the parking charge). I can see what's going to happen.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 23, 2020, 11:02:49 am
This thing's moving so fast that yesterday's opinion counts for nothing and we'd all do well to be hyper cautious.

I got my big scare / tipping point in early. I was in Austria nine days ago - washing my hands, keeping my distance, carrying on. Previously they had pre-announced that they would be closing ski areas and tourist accommodation in a couple of days. Then on Sunday morning they declared national lockdown at one hour's notice. :o

Got home to Munich with strong advice to regard myself as a leper and self-quarantine, only to have Bavaria declare a state of emergency the next morning - although full lockdown due to idiots ignoring the previous advice didn't come until Friday.

A week for a major shift in one's perception of reality isn't a very long time and I'm still feeling pretty shocked. So I can sort of understand people still being behind the curve on their comprehension of the situation - but I'm still finding it increasingly hard to raise any tolerance or sympathy for them.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 23, 2020, 11:29:04 am
I've a friend who was walking in Nepal. When he came down from the Himalaya he was totally behind on what has been happening and was joking about overlanding it across Europe for a laugh. Some strong words brought him more up to date and he then spent £800 on a ticket aboard the last flight out of Nepal. He had a stopover in Abu Dhabi and fortunately is now back in the UK.

Of all the social media and information sources that I have, UKB seems to be at the most heightened state of caution. For those who are just watching the BBC, not reading online articles etc, I can understand why they haven't yet cottoned on to the seriousness. People naturally look to their government for leadership and clarity and timely action has been completely lacking.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 23, 2020, 11:39:24 am
some strong words brought him more up to date and he then spent £800.

The in-laws are still treating Aus. (Sydney) like a holiday saying they'll stay another week or so then fly back (and not bothering their Son in terms of getting them shopping etc.). The government advice on this is still pretty unclear (if I've misread it then please point me in the correct direction); I take it to mean don't travel anywhere unless you have to, they seem to think that includes coming home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 23, 2020, 11:54:44 am
The conversations I'm talking about were a few days ago now, so I'm not sure what the guidance was at that time. I'm not sure what I'd advise your in-laws to do, but one factor is that Sydney will probably be a much easier place to stick around than Kathmandu.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 23, 2020, 12:12:49 pm
some strong words brought him more up to date and he then spent £800.

The in-laws are still treating Aus. (Sydney) like a holiday saying they'll stay another week or so then fly back (and not bothering their Son in terms of getting them shopping etc.). The government advice on this is still pretty unclear (if I've misread it then please point me in the correct direction); I take it to mean don't travel anywhere unless you have to, they seem to think that includes coming home.

Around 130 000 French citizens are stuck abroad without possibilities to return, due to cancelled flights etc.

In France we hope to return to the crags at the earliest by mid may or so, at least if the confinement is continuing to be relative lax compared to what Chinese experts are recommending. It seems likely that there will be some restrictions on climbing gyms after this to lower the number of people in the gym at the same time etc. Good overview in grimper magazine here https://www.grimper.com/news-coronavirus-quand-pourra-on-retourner-essayer-projets-falaise

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on March 23, 2020, 12:56:46 pm
some strong words brought him more up to date and he then spent £800.

The in-laws are still treating Aus. (Sydney) like a holiday saying they'll stay another week or so then fly back (and not bothering their Son in terms of getting them shopping etc.). The government advice on this is still pretty unclear (if I've misread it then please point me in the correct direction); I take it to mean don't travel anywhere unless you have to, they seem to think that includes coming home.

My sister is in rural Queensland and is working on the assumption that in a few days, it probably won't be possible to return to the UK.

She is in a weird position as a healthcare worker who emigrated shortly before things got weird. With all the panic, the Australian authorities haven't been able to process her final registration documents so she is currently unable to work.

The NHS have reinstated her registration over here (as they have done automatically for anyone who stopped working within the last 5 years, no additional training required! She has also heard of people in similar positions being offered double their old salaries to return). If her registration didn't come through soon, and if returning to the UK is still an option, they may have to reconsider their decision to emigrate soon.

Quote
The conversations I'm talking about were a few days ago now, so I'm not sure what the guidance was at that time. I'm not sure what I'd advise your in-laws to do, but one factor is that Sydney will probably be a much easier place to stick around than Kathmandu.

Isn't Sydney by far the worst hit place in Australia?

In Queensland, they have had rationing on food, loo roll and medical supplies since the weekend. The entire town went 6 days after loo roll supplies ran out before the next delivery arrived.

When new stocks arrived, they were dished out according to the waiting list and were limited to one roll each.

Although they are quite remote and there are no confirmed cases near by, the seriousness of the situation has been hitting people hard there over the last few days.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 23, 2020, 12:58:05 pm
Just been to Sainsbury’s, the bakery and post office wearing a mask.

People looking at me in horror.

Good on you. It strikes me that fear of embarrassment is the main reason we aren't all wearing homemade mask. That and the myth that they don't reduce risk. The science is clear, even homemade  masks lower risk.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 23, 2020, 01:28:03 pm
I'm making do with a Buff. At least it's cold and windy here.

Wearing a hockey mask and bloodied overalls would guarantee people keep away!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 23, 2020, 01:45:47 pm
I'm not sure what points (if any) are being made. It had seemed obvious to me that being caught in a developing country whose healthcare system is not likely to be very resilient and where there may be varying quality of sanitation provision was a bad idea.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 23, 2020, 02:26:33 pm
Whatever peoples personal views on UKC this seems a good and timely piece.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/03/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-72250
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 23, 2020, 02:27:47 pm
No outdoor climbing statement on UKC

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370

Assume the BMC will do something similar in due course...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 23, 2020, 02:32:53 pm
No outdoor climbing statement on UKC

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370

Assume the BMC will do something similar in due course...

I’m not surprised.

Some experienced climbers can’t even manage to refrain from overburdening the NHS, in their own back gardens...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cheque on March 23, 2020, 03:25:47 pm
Just had an email from the BMC saying don’t go climbing or hillwalking.

EDIT: It was a whole mailing list thing, not just aimed at me personally.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 23, 2020, 03:40:48 pm
Hi jwi, who are the Chinese experts you referenced. Have you got a link- would be interested to know more what they say.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 23, 2020, 04:03:37 pm
Read it on France info or les echos, do not remember exactly where right now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 23, 2020, 04:05:42 pm
Merci

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 23, 2020, 04:25:54 pm
I don't think the poll attached to this thread is particularly valid. I suspect the consensus is moving  and people's vote yesterday or the day before may not necessarily match their view today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on March 23, 2020, 04:57:37 pm
No outdoor climbing statement on UKC

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370

Assume the BMC will do something similar in due course...

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-and-hill-walking-its-time-to-put-it-on-hold
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 23, 2020, 05:08:38 pm
I don't think the poll attached to this thread is particularly valid. I suspect the consensus is moving  and people's vote yesterday or the day before may not necessarily match their view today or tomorrow.

I’ll pull it and run again to see for sure

For the record the poll results are/were:

Views on climbing outside at the moment

Ok with it 4 (3%)

Ok at unpopular crags and using social distancing 18 (13.6%)

Ok with above if on own or with someone in household 63 (47.7%)

Don’t climb outside full stop 41 (31.1%)

Undecided 6 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 132

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tc on March 23, 2020, 05:09:01 pm
I don't think the poll attached to this thread is particularly valid. I suspect the consensus is moving  and people's vote yesterday or the day before may not necessarily match their view today or tomorrow.

Yeah, I had the same problem with the one we had in 2016  :worms: ;D
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 23, 2020, 06:48:38 pm
Merci jwi
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 23, 2020, 07:17:54 pm
I don't think the poll attached to this thread is particularly valid. I suspect the consensus is moving  and people's vote yesterday or the day before may not necessarily match their view today or tomorrow.

Agree. I was very strongly a 3, but moved to a 4 yesterday.

Sounds like the decision might be taken out of our hands this evening anyway but TBC.

Would just like to thank everyone for the debate in this thread. There have been a lot of carefully reasoned and thoughtful points put across from all different angles and I think UKB has shown itself to be amongst the most considerate communities imaginable. I know personally I'm absolutely devastated to have had climbing taken away from me, at a particularly difficult time generally irrespective of the coronavirus, and I'm sure others feel the same or similar. The debate on here has really helped though. Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 23, 2020, 08:38:24 pm
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 23, 2020, 08:52:37 pm
Every climber who has already got a road bike or a pair of running shoes was one step ahead!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 23, 2020, 08:55:00 pm
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.

The way I interpreted that was from your house. Just me?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 23, 2020, 08:59:17 pm
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.

The way I interpreted that was from your house. Just me?

Buildering is about to become a thing again...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 23, 2020, 09:06:08 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/SPbnncv/7-DAF0514-DE63-4-B81-B6-EC-23-B939-A2128-F.jpg)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 23, 2020, 09:09:14 pm
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.

The way I interpreted that was from your house. Just me?

I think that would be best.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 23, 2020, 09:13:10 pm
https://youtu.be/LtKe1ZnyRK8
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: GazM on March 23, 2020, 09:17:06 pm
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 23, 2020, 09:20:04 pm
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.

Gaz - if your work is non essential - then I’d say no.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 23, 2020, 09:22:39 pm
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.

The way I interpreted that was from your house. Just me?

Quote
People in the UK will only be allowed to leave their home for the following purposes:

Shopping for basic necessities, as infrequently as possible
One form of exercise a day – for example a run, walk, or cycle – alone or with members of your household
Any medical need, to provide care or to help a vulnerable person
Travelling to and from work, but only where this is absolutely necessary and cannot be done from home

I can see how you (not 'you', but people) could kid yourself and interpret the above, if you were desperate to stretch the interpretation of the rules as far as possible, to mean 'drive to a national park and go for a run (or a boulder etc.), drive home again'. Because being pedantic that's 'leaving your house to engage in one form of exercise'.

But again, why would you do that?
Should just add in the line - 'Leaving your house on foot or by bike, and only exercising within a local radius of xxkm.'
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: GazM on March 23, 2020, 09:31:35 pm
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.

Gaz - if your work is non essential - then I’d say no.

Yeah, I agree Tom, it's just annoying that I'm still having to read between the lines. I'll talk to the client tomorrow for their take.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 23, 2020, 09:36:50 pm
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.

Gaz - if your work is non essential - then I’d say no.

This is still a problem until employers step up and show leadership. Currently lots of firms still keeping people at work for non-essential purposes given the circumstances. There seems to be plenty of employers - mine is guilty - of pushing the definition of essential work as much as possible, just as individuals have tried pushing the definition of essential travel and recreation.
I'm still driving into the office and making visits. Today I visited a petro-chem facility in the NW to view a job the client wants us to start within 2 weeks. Me plus 5 site engineers in a meeting discussing the job. There's no way the job is essential to society in this situation. But unless and until my employer steps up and says stay at home then I'm supposed to be continuing to turn up to work. As it stands I'm organising labour and equipment to be there. But I can't see it happening, just waiting for people to wake up. So many people are still in denial.
I have plenty of flexibility and no-one looking over my shoulder so can just work from home even if unofficially, which is what I've been doing except for when I really need to be in. But there'll be plenty of people for who it all depends on the employer making the call to shut down.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 23, 2020, 09:49:30 pm
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.

There still seems to be some ambiguity with this that’s actually just down to where the word ‘essential’ appears. This guidance doc says you’re on travelling to and from work where this can’t be done at home

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/874714/Full_guidance_on_staying_at_home_and_away_from_others.pdf

From here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others

This page (which has changed colour to show how serious they are now) says only travel for ‘essential work’

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 23, 2020, 09:57:36 pm
Every climber who has already got a road bike or a pair of running shoes was one step ahead!

In my case several steps!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: GazM on March 23, 2020, 10:05:01 pm

There still seems to be some ambiguity with this that’s actually just down to where the word ‘essential’ appears.

Absolutely. That last link is clearer and makes me much happier about my decision to stay at home. 

Not that strolling round forests looking for capercaillie  :shit: isn't essential.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 23, 2020, 10:11:02 pm
Messaging is still clear as mud.

This is not a question of employers lacking leadership. It’s a question of the government lacking leadership.

Until they are specific about which businesses MUST close then of course the vast majority (including the self-employed) will continue to work. We’ve just had an email from the CEO of our company saying that the announcement tonight wasn’t clear and that site operatives must still attend sites where clients request it. Of course businesses are going to push the limits of what they think is essential work if they’re scared of putting off clients.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 23, 2020, 10:18:32 pm
Don't know why the media are reporting the advice as 'crystal clear'.

Someone I know just messaged me this about going outside for recreation:

''I'm choosing to interpret it as broadly as possible! I think the government are hoping people will interpret it as narrowly as possible!''


Said like a member of the species that invented lawyers  ::)



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 23, 2020, 10:21:36 pm
As I understand it, and I may be wrong, we’re waiting for the publication of the list of essential businesses (tomorrow) and they were actually quite clear with addition of “other premises” in the non-essential category. Any employer “stretching” that, is begging for an almighty law suit should one of they’re employees succumb and have any basis for blaming work conditions.

I can’t see a future court or tribunal accepting that anyone saw this as anything other than the most extraordinary threat to life and limb since the war ended.

I would guess, if you go to work tomorrow, then begin displaying symptoms 12-14 days hence, then become critical etc etc; it would be hard for your employer to argue that you had not been exposed (based on that time frame) because you had attended work, for instance.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 23, 2020, 10:23:28 pm
Don't know why the media are reporting the advice as 'crystal clear'.

Someone I know just messaged me this about going outside for recreation:

''I'm choosing to interpret it as broadly as possible! I think the government are hoping people will interpret it as narrowly as possible!''


Said like a member of the species that invented lawyers  ::)

Fortunately, this person is very likely to discover exactly what your average Copper thinks of amateur (or real, for that matter) lawyers....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fultonius on March 23, 2020, 10:24:12 pm
Messaging is still clear as mud.


Totally agree.

I run an experimental wind turbine that get used for research and development, but also generates electricity for the grid and helps us tackle climate change. If our projects go back a year, that could delay crucial progress that might save a lot more lives through reducing climate change. But how the hell do you weight those things up? We're currently prioritising essential maintenance, but what about essential projects? If we find some new tech or control theory that improves wind farm output by 5%, is that worth the risk?


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 23, 2020, 10:26:52 pm
Messaging is still clear as mud.


Totally agree.

I run an experimental wind turbine that get used for research and development, but also generates electricity for the grid and helps us tackle climate change. If our projects go back a year, that could delay crucial progress that might save a lot more lives through reducing climate change. But how the hell do you weight those things up? We're currently prioritising essential maintenance, but what about essential projects? If we find some new tech or control theory that improves wind farm output by 5%, is that worth the risk?

Pretty sure that’s not going to be seen by “them” as essential.

If it was vaccine research...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 23, 2020, 10:28:21 pm
I should add, many of the site guys in the company attend multiple construction sites a day (which are still open) travelling up and down the country. They are the perfect vectors for virus dispersal.

And that is one of thousands of similar businesses which will still remain open until they’re specifically told to stop.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fultonius on March 23, 2020, 10:29:54 pm
We've blocked all visits, so it's only our guys going on site. Considering additional PPE. I think we'll all be feet up on 80% soon enough...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 23, 2020, 10:38:27 pm
It's well confusing. We read it as only travel which is essential to your work. Confusing as hell.

The list of open shops is on bbc, includes hardware, vets, pet stores, banks, post office etc. Not clear for other jobs eg plumbers, builders etc, presumably because some of their work is essential and some isn't, and the gov doesn't want to have to try to define that??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 23, 2020, 10:39:57 pm
Police cars touring the streets here and Newton Abbot, with loud speakers, telling everyone to get in doors..

That’s a bit different,

Ooh.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on March 23, 2020, 10:43:34 pm
I should add, many of the site guys in the company attend multiple construction sites a day (which are still open) travelling up and down the country. They are the perfect vectors for virus dispersal.

And that is one of thousands of similar businesses which will still remain open until they’re specifically told to stop.

I'm so torn.  We employ someone to drive around to building sites on a daily basis.  We're here there and everywhere.. but the work is quite solitary.  Easy to give the site manager a wave from a few meters away and disappear to the houses.

Thing is, as everyone alludes to, is that every working man woman and business is going to have their own interpretation of essential.

I've had to read/listen/try to understand Bojos announcement numerous times tonight.  He never said 'building sites' are to shut.  There needs to be a clear and concise definition/list of 'essential' work.

Our work us one of the last steps in getting a house signed off by building control. Its often high pressured, since it can hold up house sales etc.  There are 22 families in Bolton right now who don't know it, but were only able to move in last weekend, because we pulled out all the stops to test on Friday and get the houses handed over.

We've got similar sites this week, where there may well be all sorts of house sale chains held up, if people cant get mortgage/buy/move etc. 

The sites are desperate (not nearly strong enough word) to get their plots finished and handed over.

We've going to see how tomorrow goes, then at some point, I know we've going to have to call it and cancel the next 2 weeks work.  I know we're not alone in all this, but the construction industry is quite cut throat and the last thing we need is to drop clients right in the shit.

 





Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: remus on March 23, 2020, 10:52:57 pm
While it is regrettable that a lot of people are going to interpret what's been said as broadly as possible so they can keep working it's pretty understandable. Large swaths of the population have no meaningful savings so no work means no money, and with no money how do you eat? Or pay the rent? Or put the heating on when it gets cold?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 23, 2020, 10:59:29 pm
Two words can cover so much territory when you stop to model all the little things: 'probably impractical'.

(verdict on total lock-down from the SPI-M document) 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 23, 2020, 11:04:37 pm
the construction industry is quite cut throat and the last thing we need is to drop clients right in the shit.
If we find some new tech or control theory that improves wind farm output by 5%, is that worth the risk?

If the well informed interviewee (can't remember exactly who) on 5 live is right, then basically unless you're the NHS, essential current transport infrastructure or technology infrastructure or making stuff for either of the above, it's less important than limiting virus spread.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 23, 2020, 11:05:44 pm
To be fair to the government, the reason that they can't be more specific is that the types of work that go on in this country are so varied that they can't possibly sit down and go through it in the detail that people seem to want.
"You're a plumber so you can go and fix a burst at somebody's house if it's pissing water everywhere, but you can't go and fit a new bathroom, but maybe you can go and finish installing a new kitchen if it means they can cook food.
And now onto the carpenters..."

The stuff mentioned thus far sounds non-essential to me. The thing I have to grapple with is river water quality studies. We have sampling kit in rivers and sewers right now which needs to be maintained by two person teams. The contractor has a very few people who could go out in pairs to do this who live in the same household. The data that we collect drives studies which are required by our regulator (an arm of government). If we stop collecting useful data we will need, possibly, a sizeable extension to the delivery deadline of the studies, which in turn will affect the government's ability to write the next River Basin Management Plan within the legally required timeframe.

So if government won't grant an extension then that makes the work essential. But you're all going to tell me that it's not. The crux is that all our work sounds essential to us because we all care about it. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether we care about it more than somebody else's gran or vulnerable loved one. Because if I send out 4 people to move around the region maintaining monitors, then why shouldn't somebody else move around to maintain their wind turbines, or sign off their houses? Multiply by thousands upon thousands of business equals business as usual equals unnecessary death.

Speaking to contractors today, they sounded desperate. There's going to be a lot of pain ahead, but the instruction has come from the top. The very top. And it is the government's job to minimise that pain by supporting businesses so they can keep their staff in pay.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Hoseyb on March 23, 2020, 11:10:50 pm
I can pretty much see my boulder from my house, I could walk there in under 2 hours..

However, it is a privilege and a luxury to be in this position. The opposite of essential.

I'll go climbing when you lot do.

See you on the other side.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 23, 2020, 11:16:48 pm
My work is non-essential, and about to be non-existent if the Saudis and Russians continue to play silly buggers.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fultonius on March 23, 2020, 11:22:53 pm
To be fair to the government, the reason that they can't be more specific is that the types of work that go on in this country are so varied that they can't possibly sit down and go through it in the detail that people seem to want.
"You're a plumber so you can go and fix a burst at somebody's house if it's pissing water everywhere, but you can't go and fit a new bathroom, but maybe you can go and finish installing a new kitchen if it means they can cook food.
And now onto the carpenters..."

The stuff mentioned thus far sounds non-essential to me. The thing I have to grapple with is river water quality studies. We have sampling kit in rivers and sewers right now which needs to be maintained by two person teams. The contractor has a very few people who could go out in pairs to do this who live in the same household. The data that we collect drives studies which are required by our regulator (an arm of government). If we stop collecting useful data we will need, possibly, a sizeable extension to the delivery deadline of the studies, which in turn will affect the government's ability to write the next River Basin Management Plan within the legally required timeframe.

So if government won't grant an extension then that makes the work essential. But you're all going to tell me that it's not. The crux is that all our work sounds essential to us because we all care about it. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether we care about it more than somebody else's gran or vulnerable loved one. Because if I send out 4 people to move around the region maintaining monitors, then why shouldn't somebody else move around to maintain their wind turbines, or sign off their houses? Multiply by thousands upon thousands of business equals business as usual equals unnecessary death.

Speaking to contractors today, they sounded desperate. There's going to be a lot of pain ahead, but the instruction has come from the top. The very top. And it is the government's job to minimise that pain by supporting businesses so they can keep their staff in pay.

I guess working in pairs is based on a risk assessment against lone working (we have the same). You know have a 3-way toss up between:


Will people die/suffer if you stop doing the work?

For us, realistically we could just shut down and it would barely make a difference. But, if each small wind farm makes the same call...it all adds up to a fairly major cut to power supplies. nightmare.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 23, 2020, 11:24:23 pm
I agree with the principle of everything you said Will but unfortunately that isn't the reality. As other posters have said - unless the government stops some non-essential firms from operating, then they will continue operating. And as you point out the rules can't be anything except full of loopholes and reliant on following the spirit rather than the letter.
It *should* be a question of only doing what's essential to health and supporting the effort to deal with the covid virus. but it isn't. For some people and businesses it's still a question of what they can continue to justify under the broad banner of 'essential' for as long as possible until forced to stop.

On a positive note, it doesn't take 100% compliance to get transmissions down to a manageable level.

'probably impractical' but I hope I'mthe modellers are proved wrong.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 23, 2020, 11:25:40 pm
Will, can they work together, but still maintain safe distance? Arrive in separate cars, keep 2 m apart??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 23, 2020, 11:38:24 pm
Sending people out on their own is out of the question. We would never consider it safe practice before Covid so I don't see why we should consider it safe during.

In theory they could probably maintain two metres if traveling in separate vehicles but if somebody needs assistance then that goes out the window. It's also pretty impractical.

Besides all that these people would inevitably touch stuff, breathe on other "essential" workers while out and about etc etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 23, 2020, 11:50:16 pm
Fair enough, just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fultonius on March 24, 2020, 12:09:38 am
Will, I guess my point was - what's considered "as low as reasonably practicable" during normal times, might be a different calculation now.

i.e.  If the work *is* essential, and lone working is *still* considered too high risk (reasonable), then maybe PPE and procedures can help?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 24, 2020, 06:45:34 am
Number 10 tweeted an Emergency Covid-19 Alert last night stating:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (if you’re a key worker)”

And then deleted it and changed it to:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (but work from home if possible)”

No wonder they’re causing so much confusion.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkey boy on March 24, 2020, 08:41:35 am
Driving back from Edale this morning (we had been staying out there, long story) saw someone going out bouldering at 8 o'clock this morning at Burbage  :wall:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 24, 2020, 08:56:47 am
Driving back from Edale this morning (we had been staying out there, long story) saw someone going out bouldering at 8 o'clock this morning at Burbage  :wall:

Words fail me. The utter selfishness is genuinely disgusting. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 24, 2020, 09:01:54 am
There was a tearful phone call from a palliative care consultant on the today programme this morning basically saying before you step out of the door,  think what is the best way to stop any more preventable transmission.  I think that if you have to stop to ask yourself whether something is okay,  it's not, stay at home. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 24, 2020, 09:04:57 am
Driving back from Edale this morning (we had been staying out there, long story) saw someone going out bouldering at 8 o'clock this morning at Burbage  :wall:

Wankers.

With no guidance for the self employed its pretty inevitable that contractors and general construction workers will continue going to work until they are ordered not to. What are they supposed to do otherwise? Universal Credit doesn't touch the sides for my parents with a mortgage to pay.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on March 24, 2020, 09:06:55 am
Number 10 tweeted an Emergency Covid-19 Alert last night stating:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (if you’re a key worker)”

And then deleted it and changed it to:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (but work from home if possible)”

No wonder they’re causing so much confusion.

This ^^^^

Our tester sent us a screen grab of the 'key worker' version.  I however, could not find it anywhere on the gov website last night. only the 'essential work' version.   So we were flummoxed as to what to do.  Didn't sleep well. 

But at 3am, (yes 3am) he texted a tweet from Robert Jenrick - Sec. of State for Housing .
that categorically says if working on site, continue to do so.

https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1242210351007096836?s=20

Then on This morning,  Gove announced in interview that construction industry is to continue.

So put me at ease a little bit that we're not flying in the face of the lockdown.  (At the same time, acutely aware that it's not necessarily the 'right' thing to be doing).

But, like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop.  Our guy seems relatively happy to continue, as far as I can tell, and he'd fully decked with gloves, sanitiser, wipes etc and we're confident that he can keep himself to himself on site.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 24, 2020, 09:10:29 am
I can understand this behaviour is infuriating to us, and we maybe expect better from climbers for some reason(?)

But from my work WhatsApp chat group the general feeling seems to be confusion and frustration that fun things in the evenings and weekends (potentially outside in the fresh air) are now banned. But it’s still ok to go into work in enclosed spaces, unavoidably mixing with many other people.

People can’t be expected to make sensible choices in their free time when at work the advice seems completely counterintuitive to the general government guidance.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 24, 2020, 09:15:49 am
I can understand this behaviour is infuriating to us, and we maybe expect better from climbers for some reason(?)
 But it’s still ok to go into work in enclosed spaces, unavoidably mixing with many other people.

People can’t be expected to make sensible choices in their free time when at work the advice seems completely counterintuitive to the general government guidance.

I disagree,  is there no way you can WFH? Or rota office attendance?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 24, 2020, 09:22:00 am
Toby - I do work from home generally in normal times. And always now. Face to face meetings have switched to Skype or Teams.

But I’m referring to the site operatives. The construction sites remain open. Clients still expect work to be carried out. And the work involves travelling often to multiple sites in a day. So as i said upthread the CEO emailed last night to say site workers would continue to attend site. And no update this morning other than the government confirming that construction sites stay open...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 24, 2020, 09:22:25 am
Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”. I’ll be doing short local runs and focusing on strength work.

Personally I think there’s a strong argument for Strava to be suspended (as UKC suspended the logging of routes) though I can see the argument against this.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 24, 2020, 09:39:29 am
Toby - I do work from home generally in normal times. And always now. Face to face meetings have switched to Skype or Teams.

But I’m referring to the site operatives. The construction sites remain open. Clients still expect work to be carried out. And the work involves travelling often to multiple sites in a day. So as i said upthread the CEO emailed last night to say site workers would continue to attend site. And no update this morning other than the government confirming that construction sites stay open...

Ah I see. Difficult, unless the government just says stop doing anything.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 24, 2020, 09:39:34 am
Number 10 tweeted an Emergency Covid-19 Alert last night stating:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (if you’re a key worker)”

And then deleted it and changed it to:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (but work from home if possible)”

No wonder they’re causing so much confusion.

This ^^^^

Our tester sent us a screen grab of the 'key worker' version.  I however, could not find it anywhere on the gov website last night. only the 'essential work' version.   So we were flummoxed as to what to do.  Didn't sleep well. 

But at 3am, (yes 3am) he texted a tweet from Robert Jenrick - Sec. of State for Housing .
that categorically says if working on site, continue to do so.

https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1242210351007096836?s=20

Then on This morning,  Gove announced in interview that construction industry is to continue.

So put me at ease a little bit that we're not flying in the face of the lockdown.  (At the same time, acutely aware that it's not necessarily the 'right' thing to be doing).

But, like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop.  Our guy seems relatively happy to continue, as far as I can tell, and he'd fully decked with gloves, sanitiser, wipes etc and we're confident that he can keep himself to himself on site.

I understand this view, and I'm in a similar position at them moment. But the situation doesn't sit right with me. (I'm not being critical of you personally SamT)

You can use language to make the decisions more palatable - for e.g. 'like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop.'

'like nearly everyone' - this is an appeal to popularity. Or a bandwagon fallacy. Everyone could be jumping off cliffs, is that a reason to jump off cliffs?

'in any business' -  business in and of itself is no justification for anything. The reality of continuing 'business' during a pandemic is that your business now also carries with it the inevitable side-effect of contributing in a small way to spreading an infection to which we have no immunity or vaccine. The net result (highly unlikely to be attributable to any individual) is there will be more infection in this busy period than there otherwise would, and thus an x% chance of increased excess deaths.

'until categorically told to stop' - appeal to authority. The rule doesn't outlaw it so it is acceptable to do. If the rule didn't categorically tell you not to jump off cliffs, would you jump off cliffs?

'Our guy seems relatively happy to continue' - appeal to others / deferment of responsibility.  If your guy seemed 'relatively happy' to jump off cliffs would you send him?


Not criticising, just using your post as an example but could use my own or others. I'm about to leave to go to the office to carry out what I consider in a fuzzy logic way are probably necessary tasks of sorting out payroll issues and who's going to get paid what. But I'm still being asked to carry out jobs by clients that I can clearly see are not necessary and which in their small way will spread infections more than if we didn't do them. But the work will keep 4 self-employed guys and 2 employees in good money for 3+ months when they might otherwise go without.. Grappling with what I'm going to do about it, might tell the client I think they should postpone.

I think one thing this disaster shows in stark relief (but which is always true) is that there will always be reasons to not choose the ideal option.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 24, 2020, 09:41:14 am
Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”.

Indeed not. If people keep pushing it, we'll be heading for government banning exercise of any kind.
I think they should consider massively increasing the potential fines, and empower police to impound people's vehicles if they're breaking the rules blatantly.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 24, 2020, 09:44:56 am
I agree. I don’t know the guy but he’s in my club and I posted as much. His argument is he was less likely to come into contact with others than on a short, local run. Which might make sense to an extent but it just sends out the message to “carry on as normal”. I need to start researching dreadmills  at this rate 😡
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkey boy on March 24, 2020, 09:47:27 am
I agree. I don’t know the guy but he’s in my club and I posted as much. His argument is he was less likely to come into contact with others than on a short, local run. Which might make sense to an extent but it just sends out the message to “carry on as normal”. I need to start researching dreadmills  at this rate 😡

I felt like him a little, and you will come in to contact with less people but I agree with it sending the wrong message.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 24, 2020, 09:52:56 am
Simple:

https://placestovisitthisweekend.com/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkey boy on March 24, 2020, 09:53:32 am
Simple:

https://placestovisitthisweekend.com/

Saw that yesterday. Enjoyed it a lot
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on March 24, 2020, 10:00:32 am
Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”. I’ll be doing short local runs and focusing on strength work.

Personally I think there’s a strong argument for Strava to be suspended (as UKC suspended the logging of routes) though I can see the argument against this.

It surely wouldn't be hard to limit runs to a certain time or distance? Go over whatever that distance is, and it gets nulled.

Similarly, if you record a run in the morning, then record a second run in the afternoon and a third in the evening, it nulls them all and emails you a strongly worded instruction to stop being so selfish.

That said, how much riskier is a longer run? The only difference I can think of is a slightly higher risk of having a heart attack etc.

My parents live in a village that isn't at all remote. I could easily plot a 2.5 hour route from my parents' house where you would almost certainly see nobody, could maintain 50+ metres from other people at all times and yet would never be further than a couple of hundred metres of flat ground from a road and/or houses.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 24, 2020, 10:00:47 am
I agree. I don’t know the guy but he’s in my club and I posted as much. His argument is he was less likely to come into contact with others than on a short, local run. Which might make sense to an extent but it just sends out the message to “carry on as normal”. I need to start researching dreadmills  at this rate 😡

I felt like him a little, and you will come in to contact with less people but I agree with it sending the wrong message.

Which is where we were last week, hence why I went out on Kinder on Sunday accepting that would be it for the foreseeable.

Anyway, I think it’s pretty unambiguous here with the key word being *minimising*:

1. STAYING AT HOME
You should only leave the house for one of four reasons.
● Shopping for basic necessities​, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible.
● One form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household.
● Any medical need​, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person.
● Travelling to and from work​, but only where this absolutely cannot be done from home.

These four reasons are exceptions - even when doing these activities, you should be minimising time spent
outside of the home and ensuring you are 2 metres apart from anyone outside of your household.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/874742/Full_guidance_on_staying_at_home_and_away_from_others__1_.pdf
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on March 24, 2020, 10:16:02 am

I understand this view, and I'm in a similar position at them moment. But the situation doesn't sit right with me. (I'm not being critical of you personally SamT)

No criticism taken.  As I say, I'm acutely aware of the implications and ramifications.  But I'm not the sole person in the business, and we're all trying to juggle/grapple with it best we can.

Just had word that a site in Egremont (yes bloody Egremont) has shut so we dont have to go there now.  Assuming a lot of the big sites will be following suit which is both a relief and a worry.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on March 24, 2020, 10:29:52 am
On my way to work this morning I saw someone pulling up to caley with pads in the car.  Argh  :o
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 24, 2020, 10:43:41 am
Personally I think there’s a strong argument for Strava to be suspended (as UKC suspended the logging of routes) though I can see the argument against this.

Are you aware of the likes of Zwift (and other things such as Trainerroad, Sufferfest etc.)? There are a huge number of people now riding and racing on a virtual platform/world (Watopia) that uses Strava as a means to record. Many people will be using such systems to avoid going out.

I think perhaps it's good idea to make Strava private for anyone doing exercise. People stuck in less good places or who are unable to exercise directly from home aren't going to want to see it rubbed in their faces.

Out of interest how far does someone go on that length of run? I'm just trying to think of the equivalence on a bike with respect to when I next exercise.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 24, 2020, 10:44:35 am
I could easily "get away with" going climbing. I can stash a pad and shoes in a cave, and work on a low level traverse / link that's about a 10 minute run from the house. I can run out the house, through the coastal park, and disappear over the edge of the field and down to the boulders.

I've decided I won't though. Even though risk is low, there is still a risk, and I need to do what I've been asked to do. I won't enjoy being there as I feel to me it's morally wrong, will be overly nervous, and feel uncomfortable doing so.

Which is fortunately OK, I like running anyway, and I can take the kids out with me for a shorter run, before carrying on on my own for a bit longer.

I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 24, 2020, 10:46:53 am
On my way to work this morning I saw someone pulling up to caley with pads in the car.  Argh  :o

That’s worthy of a wind the window down and bellow GO HOME...

Ffs 🤦‍♂️ etc...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 24, 2020, 10:48:22 am
Out of interest how far does someone go on that length of run? I'm just trying to think of the equivalence on a bike with respect to when I next exercise.

I'm doing half an hour to 45 minutes. I've now changed from my favourite route, as when I did it yesterday I stupidly forgot there are 3 farm gates with walker's gates to the side. I opted to climb over the far side of the farm gate, and used hands as little as possible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Plattsy on March 24, 2020, 10:56:17 am
I can't run at the moment. So walking. How far is too far?

One person's walk is another person's stroll in the park.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 24, 2020, 10:57:22 am

I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.

I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 24, 2020, 11:01:16 am
I can't run at the moment. So walking. How far is too far?

One person's walk is another person's stroll in the park.

Are you one of the Proclaimers?

No?


Not 500 miles then.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 24, 2020, 11:02:00 am

I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.

I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.

Amen to that. When will people get the message, it's not for them personally, it's for everyone. If everyone thinks 'o surely it's ok if I just....' we're all fucked.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Plattsy on March 24, 2020, 11:05:25 am
I can't run at the moment. So walking. How far is too far?

One person's walk is another person's stroll in the park.

Are you one of the Proclaimers?

No?


Not 500 miles then.
Not from Miami to Canada then?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 24, 2020, 11:05:51 am

Out of interest how far does someone go on that length of run? I'm just trying to think of the equivalence on a bike with respect to when I next exercise.

32Km
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 24, 2020, 11:14:57 am
You can use language to make the decisions more palatable - for e.g. 'like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop.'
'until categorically told to stop' - appeal to authority. The rule doesn't outlaw it so it is acceptable to do. If the rule didn't categorically tell you not to jump off cliffs, would you jump off cliffs?

Not as simple as that Pete. Unless the government forces these sites to close then companies not attending to provide the services are legally in breach of contract.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 24, 2020, 11:19:46 am
Are they NEC ECC contracts? If so my understanding is that there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe. I'm assuming it's not that simple (and my learning on the subject is limited).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 24, 2020, 11:23:01 am
Word from our weird corner of the environmental/construction world is that the supply chain across the country (including plant, quarries and waste disposal) is shutting down, so will be surprised if construction stays viable for much longer.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on March 24, 2020, 11:39:40 am
Word from our weird corner of the environmental/construction world is that the supply chain across the country (including plant, quarries and waste disposal) is shutting down, so will be surprised if construction stays viable for much longer.

This is happening. Builders merchants are shutting around the place as they are essentially shops.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 24, 2020, 11:45:21 am
What seems weird is that the merchants are shutting but hardware stores are allowed to stay open. Is this a difference in categorisation or just a miscommunication?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 24, 2020, 12:02:47 pm
Hardware stores now closing.

Well B&Q at least.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2020/03/24/bq-closing-stores-on-tuesday-as-sports-direct-condemned-for-staying-open/

As for Sports Direct, he should be shot. Anyone wanting a decent pair of trainers to run in would avoid the crap he peddles like a virus.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 24, 2020, 12:03:32 pm
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.

Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 24, 2020, 12:13:12 pm
Hardware stores now closing.

Well B&Q at least.


Weird, given that the list of stores on Guardian/BBC explicitly includes them in the ones allowed to be open. Presumably some stores need to be open so that plumbers, builders etc can get materials/parts for emergency fixes e.g. broken boilers/toilets, problems with gas pipes etc?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: duncan on March 24, 2020, 12:14:33 pm
Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”. I’ll be doing short local runs and focusing on strength work.

You could define a local run as: 'could limp home from any point if you badly sprained your ankle.' 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on March 24, 2020, 12:20:18 pm
Which is where we were last week, hence why I went out on Kinder on Sunday accepting that would be it for the foreseeable.

Anyway, I think it’s pretty unambiguous here with the key word being *minimising*:

1. STAYING AT HOME
You should only leave the house for one of four reasons.
● Shopping for basic necessities​, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible.
● One form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household.
● Any medical need​, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person.
● Travelling to and from work​, but only where this absolutely cannot be done from home.

These four reasons are exceptions - even when doing these activities, you should be minimising time spent
outside of the home and ensuring you are 2 metres apart from anyone outside of your household.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/874742/Full_guidance_on_staying_at_home_and_away_from_others__1_.pdf

Tom, the problem with this is that it's conflicting advice so I can see why there's disagreement. Go outside to exercise, but minimise your time outside - so a quick 100m down the road and back inside? I don't see how you can achieve both, so you need to define what is "normal" for exercise and that's going to be personal. The guidance has been written in short order so there's bound to be loopholes, so it's not about following the letter of the law, it's about being sensible. On that basis, I totally agree with what you said on Gia's Strava feed, that was clearly taking the piss in my opinion.

I think the euro guidance (French?) of less than 2km from home is good and clear and that's what I've decided to follow. Luckily for me that gives me plenty of scope, but there's still some paths I'll avoid at certain times/all of the time. Boredom threshold is then going to limit how long I run for. For some people, the 2km "rule" would bring them into contact with more people, so I can see why they might choose to do something different.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 24, 2020, 12:21:27 pm

I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.

I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.

I generally visit family in .uk in the school summer holidays (looking unlikely this year), and post on the ukc partners forums when I manage to get away for a few days. Have had some good times & met some great folks by doing so, but the list of obvious twats I would turn down offers to climb with has grown dramatically in the last week or so.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 24, 2020, 12:30:19 pm
Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.

I don't disagree, I just don't get how with standard welfare provisions (drying rooms, toilets, canteens, morning briefings etc.) you (people) can comply with the SD requirements:

https://twitter.com/AlanWolfson/status/1242326859985104897?s=19
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 24, 2020, 12:49:22 pm
I just don't get how with standard welfare provisions (drying rooms, toilets, canteens, morning briefings etc.) you (people) can comply with the SD requirements:

Exactly. It gets to the point where if you applied the social distancing measures rigorously then such little work would actually get done that it makes staying open a moot point anyway  :shrug:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 24, 2020, 12:54:06 pm
This should probably be on the other thread but at what point are the employer not providing sufficient PPE (https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/ppe.htm) for such a situation  :worms:.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 24, 2020, 01:03:35 pm
This should probably be on the other thread but at what point are the employer not providing sufficient PPE (https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/ppe.htm) for such a situation  :worms:.
What concerns me more is how much PPE will be expended in lower risk situations on construction site etc, which would more usefully be transferred to the nhs to protect front line staff. Again greater clarity from the govt is required, to free up a huge reservoir of masks, gloves, disposable overalls etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 24, 2020, 01:06:09 pm
You could define a local run as: 'could limp home from any point if you badly sprained your ankle.'

I think this sums it up well. Sadly (sensibly) on a bike I think it should also mean where you can walk home from carrying the bike if you have a major mechanical failure if you don't have a household member who can retrieve you.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 24, 2020, 01:14:58 pm

I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.

I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.

I generally visit family in .uk in the school summer holidays (looking unlikely this year), and post on the ukc partners forums when I manage to get away for a few days. Have had some good times & met some great folks by doing so, but the list of obvious twats I would turn down offers to climb with has grown dramatically in the last week or so.

Yup.

I just spent a few minutes talking over the wall with the neighbour at the bottom of the garden. Just into her 80’s, she cares for her disabled Granddaughter (who’s parents died when she was 14) and is still reeling from her husband’s death in December.
The Granddaughter is just 18, very sweet, but definitely not, mentally, able to cope alone. She came back with the shopping while we were talking. She’s so panicked about her Grandmother. Very hard to watch. Definitely got some pollen in my eyes, so made an excuse about needing to make lunch.
Just cannot see myself writing people off because they’re vulnerable or just unlucky.
I mean, ffs, how do I know my kids or my partner are not amongst the unlucky that can’t produce the antibodies?
 
Saw a FB post that struck a chord:

People saying “it’s only 3% lethal”.
Fine, here’s 100 M&Ms, three of them will kill you, still hungry?

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on March 24, 2020, 02:50:56 pm
Reports online of police stopping people in the Peak checking their reasons for travelling.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 24, 2020, 04:10:59 pm
Good. Hard to BS your way out of it with a couple of pads and a rucksack full of kit on the back seat..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on March 24, 2020, 04:27:58 pm
Interesting discussion about running and cycling.

Any pro-tips for someone who can't rely on lower limb based CV exercise as attempts to do so are quickly curtailed by lack of venous return in legs, and instead has had to rely on single lengthy / full day sessions of steady full body / upper limb focused exercise to maintain a healthy level of activity?? Obviously this previously could have included mixed gym sessions, swimming, etc, but errr, not any more.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on March 24, 2020, 04:30:56 pm
Get a boxing bag? Maybe a bit intense for you rather than lengthy though. Never done nibs any harm.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 24, 2020, 04:39:19 pm
Tough one Matt. Let me ponder.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 24, 2020, 04:46:05 pm
I second the bag routine option.

Club swinging, is a great aerobic upper body workout. Clubs can be improvised with dumbbells, if you have them.

If you have a barbell, quarter/bow staff exercises with a small weight at one end.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on March 24, 2020, 04:53:16 pm
Looking at getting a cheap one (bag), but hanging options are limited. Not sure I can face laps of the garden, though I did see someone ran a marathon on a small balcony in Spain or Italy!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 24, 2020, 05:04:53 pm
You could try a free yoga class tonight at 7.00 pm Fiend. Matt’s the real thing, in a world of of pseudoYoga £££studioS. Interesting back story, swapping the Hacienda for the Ashtanga mat.

Gotta be worth a punt; you might like it :)

https://mailchi.mp/yoga-manchester/re-online-free-yoga-sessions-with-matt-ryan?e=5076284740
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 25, 2020, 09:09:14 am
Club swinging, is a great aerobic upper body workout. Clubs can be improvised with dumbbells, if you have them.


Make a slosh pipe?

https://www.fitnessblender.com/articles/slosh-pipe-workout-the-best-slosh-pipe-exercises
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkey boy on March 25, 2020, 09:19:50 am
I debated whether to upload this video but all the problems were climbed before the government lock down on March 23rd and before the BMC asked us to not go climbing or hill walking. During my times visiting Doll Tor I didn't see another person walking in or out and definitely not whilst at the crag. I am also pretty sure no one else visited on the days I wasn't there.

Anyway, disclaimer out of the way here are a few new mantle's and Brain Storm, a brilliant low start to Gathering Storm. I hope people enjoy the video; the quiet, the sounds, the scenery and the climbing and can use it for a bit of training motivation in these strange times.

The rock will still be there when all this is over, although maybe a little more moss covered. Enjoy!

https://vimeo.com/400504271
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: steveri on March 25, 2020, 09:57:50 am

Make a slosh pipe?

https://www.fitnessblender.com/articles/slosh-pipe-workout-the-best-slosh-pipe-exercises

They're really good from my brief go. I think the instability of the water sloshing around probably translates to climbing - holding positions and fine tuning the minor muscles you don't get from machines. A friend of mine invented the 'aquatube' and worked on it for years. It's a lovely idea but always struck me as too easily copied/DIYed. I reckon there's a better version using gels of various 'viscosity/flows' so you'd get the effect of balancing the shifting weight but in a more controlled manner. Wonder if you could do this with some home cooking, like those silly putties the kids were into a while ago?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Falling Down on March 25, 2020, 10:38:45 am
I made one a few years back - they’re absolute bastards and great fun.  Just holding it above your head is a full body workout.

I’ve unpacked the weights for the first time in years - gonna get  :strongbench:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 25, 2020, 11:30:14 am
I debated whether to upload this video but all the problems were climbed before the government lock down on March 23rd and before the BMC asked us to not go climbing or hill walking. During my times visiting Doll Tor I didn't see another person walking in or out and definitely not whilst at the crag. I am also pretty sure no one else visited on the days I wasn't there.

Anyway, disclaimer out of the way here are a few new mantle's and Brain Storm, a brilliant low start to Gathering Storm. I hope people enjoy the video; the quiet, the sounds, the scenery and the climbing and can use it for a bit of training motivation in these strange times.

The rock will still be there when all this is over, although maybe a little more moss covered. Enjoy!

https://vimeo.com/400504271

Great fun Dave! I'm confused by what becomes Palma Violence (great name!) and the problem shown from above immediately before. They appear to be the same problem but you're wearing different clothes. Am I confused?

Harry Palma would be another good know (old Michael Caine character).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on March 25, 2020, 12:51:15 pm
Really enjoyed that David. 3:10 looked like it could have ended badly!

Thanks for posting. I doubt any of us will take getting out on a rock for granted again.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkey boy on March 25, 2020, 03:39:08 pm
I debated whether to upload this video but all the problems were climbed before the government lock down on March 23rd and before the BMC asked us to not go climbing or hill walking. During my times visiting Doll Tor I didn't see another person walking in or out and definitely not whilst at the crag. I am also pretty sure no one else visited on the days I wasn't there.

Anyway, disclaimer out of the way here are a few new mantle's and Brain Storm, a brilliant low start to Gathering Storm. I hope people enjoy the video; the quiet, the sounds, the scenery and the climbing and can use it for a bit of training motivation in these strange times.

The rock will still be there when all this is over, although maybe a little more moss covered. Enjoy!

https://vimeo.com/400504271

Great fun Dave! I'm confused by what becomes Palma Violence (great name!) and the problem shown from above immediately before. They appear to be the same problem but you're wearing different clothes. Am I confused?

Harry Palma would be another good know (old Michael Caine character).

Haha they are the same problem. The day I brushed the boulder up I did Palma Violence (shot from above) from one move in, I then tried to add the first move but couldn't repeat the mantle. I then came back and managed to repeat the mantle with the first move before. So both are Palma Violence, just thought two angles was good. That make sense? When it's shot from above I can technically pull on there from the ground but I thought most people wouldn't be able to and so added the first move as I thought it was a better/more obvious starting place.

Glad you enjoyed it, I loved brushing them up and figuring them out.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 25, 2020, 03:44:12 pm
Please can we have names and grades for all problems in future? Ta  :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 25, 2020, 04:31:29 pm
Just so Will can downgrade them before he even tries them, let alone does them :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkey boy on March 25, 2020, 04:45:15 pm
Please can we have names and grades for all problems in future? Ta  :)

There are names. Grades wise they are mantles so quite specific. Palma Anderson and Palma Ham are in the 6's and Palma Violence is somewhere in the mid 7's. It felt harder than other mantle's I have done with the exception of Raw Deal.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 25, 2020, 05:31:06 pm
I made one a few years back - they’re absolute bastards and great fun.  Just holding it above your head is a full body workout.

I’ve unpacked the weights for the first time in years - gonna get  :strongbench:

I remember pissing about with that thing in your garden after a load of beers with Giles. Desperate.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Falling Down on March 25, 2020, 07:39:31 pm
Yeah that’s it.  It’s surprisingly difficult to even pick the damn thing up and put it over your head never mind hold it there for any length of time (especially after beers !)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 25, 2020, 08:33:08 pm
I debated whether to upload this video but all the problems were climbed before the government lock down on March 23rd and before the BMC asked us to not go climbing or hill walking. During my times visiting Doll Tor I didn't see another person walking in or out and definitely not whilst at the crag. I am also pretty sure no one else visited on the days I wasn't there.

Anyway, disclaimer out of the way here are a few new mantle's and Brain Storm, a brilliant low start to Gathering Storm. I hope people enjoy the video; the quiet, the sounds, the scenery and the climbing and can use it for a bit of training motivation in these strange times.

The rock will still be there when all this is over, although maybe a little more moss covered. Enjoy!

https://vimeo.com/400504271

Great fun Dave! I'm confused by what becomes Palma Violence (great name!) and the problem shown from above immediately before. They appear to be the same problem but you're wearing different clothes. Am I confused?

Harry Palma would be another good know (old Michael Caine character).
Palmistry for the superstitious. Charterhouse of Parma for the Stendhal fans out there. The palmed off etc puns are endless.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on March 26, 2020, 11:41:49 am
No space nor hanging options for a punchbag. Have tried yoga several times with well-reputed classes / tutors, can't stand it.

Just went for a sort of run. 5 mins running, 2 mins walking, x 3, horrendous. Worst run for a while. Had just been getting my fitness back up noticably and essentially recently via regular days out climbing and occasional gym sessions.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 26, 2020, 11:50:33 am
Hi Fiend

What do you have at home to use? There are plenty of interval/HIIT/tabata style workouts you could do just focussing on upper body and/or core and not using your legs so much. These should be sufficient to get your CV system working hard. There’s tonnes of variations of these that could be equipment free too.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 26, 2020, 12:00:52 pm
We’ve been doing the Joe Wicks kids PE thing every morning at 9 on YouTube. It’s quite good fun and gets my ticker going (162 today...). Quite a nice way to start the day actually. Always feel better after.

I hate exercise too.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 26, 2020, 12:39:42 pm
My 16 year old super fit rugby playing son has just told me hes got a training program from his S&C coach that we are going to do together starting tomorrow when i get home.

This frightens me a lot and will either make me into some kind of athlete or dead. Another reason i hope this thing is over quickly.

Any competitive dads with young kids enjoy doing sport with them now as it gets hard when your in your 50s and they are 16+. I can just keep ahead of him on squats and DL despite me weighing nearly 30kg more than him and cardio i might as well just give up.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 26, 2020, 12:41:53 pm
I’ll be 62 when our lad is 16 😂😂

No point in trying then 😃
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 26, 2020, 12:48:33 pm
I assure you the fact there is no point wont stop you trying.

I can still burn both of mine of climbing but they win at that by refusing to go.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on March 26, 2020, 01:00:30 pm
Mine had just started to burn me off at the bouldering wall at 15 (me 58) when he decided to quit & go & lift weights with his mates instead. Phew.  :whistle:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 26, 2020, 01:16:21 pm
Any competitive dads with young kids enjoy doing sport with them now as it gets hard when your in your 50s and they are 16+. I can just keep ahead of him on squats and DL despite me weighing nearly 30kg more than him and cardio i might as well just give up.

When I started hiding from rugby at school (around the time others started getting bigger and I, didn't  :tumble:) squash was my savior. We had a great team TBH (one went on to be professional rugby player who has now retired and returned to the school as a coach) and went unbeaten for ages until a certain Scottish school came to visit and left us all distraught.

Anyhow, despite this (being pretty handy) and other training, I've never managed to beat my Dad at squash. Similarly, he had a heart attack the other year and I still think I'd struggle to keep up with him on a bike on anything but descents (where he's more self-aware).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 26, 2020, 02:10:54 pm
Anyone recognise their vehicle... :)
http://twitter.com/i/status/1243168931503882241 (http://twitter.com/i/status/1243168931503882241)


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 26, 2020, 02:20:13 pm
We have the odd situation in our road. Where one house in isolation (family of 4) one is now 8 days from symptoms and feeling better so getting out and about. But two in her house are still quite ill. So obvs still in the 14 days. Yet she can walk in and out of the house with no restrictions. Is this Ok? Does this mean she can leave fomites transferred from the house she’s in - despite not being infectious herself?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 26, 2020, 03:47:08 pm
Ooph!

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/coronavirus-lockdown-uk-arrest-fine-police-rules-latest-a9428196.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1585235469 (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/coronavirus-lockdown-uk-arrest-fine-police-rules-latest-a9428196.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1585235469)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 27, 2020, 01:31:22 pm
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.

Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment):
https://www.building.co.uk/news/site-shutdowns-prompted-by-health-and-safety-legislation-lawyer-says/5105225.article?fbclid=IwAR03ESx4TDnVXWO5BRnJASvDUFGMjG5kQTeqWN4atwuaga8ZnOjsniXWR3M
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 27, 2020, 02:59:10 pm
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.

Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment):
https://www.building.co.uk/news/site-shutdowns-prompted-by-health-and-safety-legislation-lawyer-says/5105225.article?fbclid=IwAR03ESx4TDnVXWO5BRnJASvDUFGMjG5kQTeqWN4atwuaga8ZnOjsniXWR3M


This was my situation yesterday when I called a client. I was hoping they were going to say they didn't want the project starting next week. Instead they were talking to me as if nothing was wrong, and actually wondered why I hadn't got started already! So I made sure I could get my guys' pay Furloughed then I emailed the client back later yesterday and told them we couldn't go ahead with the project work due to the risk from covid-related stuff. It's fucking ridiculous how blind and reckless some clients and employers are being about it, while others have been sensible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Nigel on March 27, 2020, 03:24:09 pm
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.

Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment):
https://www.building.co.uk/news/site-shutdowns-prompted-by-health-and-safety-legislation-lawyer-says/5105225.article?fbclid=IwAR03ESx4TDnVXWO5BRnJASvDUFGMjG5kQTeqWN4atwuaga8ZnOjsniXWR3M


This was my situation yesterday when I called a client. I was hoping they were going to say they didn't want the project starting next week. Instead they were talking to me as if nothing was wrong, and actually wondered why I hadn't got started already! So I made sure I could get my guys' pay Furloughed then I emailed the client back later yesterday and told them we couldn't go ahead with the project work due to the risk from covid-related stuff. It's fucking ridiculous how blind and reckless some clients and employers are being about it, while others have been sensible.

I think you're quite right to do this pete, and paul b in your assessment. I used to be a rope access project manager, and in risk assessment terms even if you travel separately, keep 2m, have dedicated personal kit, wear all ppe, and ensure all welfare facilities are wiped down after each use (ps how likely is that in reality?), then you still have rescues. It might be a rare occurence and you could rig for rescue if applicable and put new gloves by the rigging but it starts to raise questions about whether its all worth it....

Government advice of keep 2m and its fine ignores all the other points above (and there will be others). I can easily see how most contractors would rightly be more worried by their responsibilities under hasw act if they take risk assessment seriously. Large sites with shared welfare can't function safely imho.

Notwithstanding that I would have expected the government to have requisitioned all main contractor's stocks of ppe already making the above moot. The fact they haven't seems bizarre given their other actions and lack of ppe for the nhs!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 27, 2020, 04:04:03 pm
Surely Employers have a duty of care for Employees? HSE would be all over you if there was an issue with faulty PPE or procedures not being followed, why would they accept a potential risk of exposure to a potentially fatal does of a virus any more than being exposed to a potentially fatal dose of radiation or poisonous gas? I expect lawyers would say the same, and I stand corrected by Ru or the like, but if it can be demonstrated the Employer was negligent there is no insurance or limit of liability to save you and, I think, your client.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 27, 2020, 04:12:59 pm
I agree, and this is the justification I gave to my client who wanted to proceed with project work next week:

- It is not possible for team members to stay 2 metres apart while carrying out the ### works.
- Sharing company works vehicles would be unavoidable.
- Carrying out the works introduces increased risk of spreading the virus, for e.g. among other site personnel, local food retailers (lunch breaks).
- In the unlikely event of any accident, provision of emergency medical services is likely to be delayed due to the emergency health service being overstretched with virus patients.
- While likelihood of any accident is very low, carrying out the ### works creates an unnecessary increased risk of placing a demand on the emergency health service at a time they will be overstretched.
- Labour resources are likely to be disrupted, due to illness and some workers not feeling safe to go to work.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy B on March 27, 2020, 04:56:28 pm

....I used to be a rope access project manager, and in risk assessment terms even if you travel separately, keep 2m, have dedicated personal kit, wear all ppe, and ensure all welfare facilities are wiped down after each use (ps how likely is that in reality?), then you still have rescues. It might be a rare occurence and you could rig for rescue if applicable and put new gloves by the rigging but it starts to raise questions about whether its all worth it....

I don’t remember you ever providing welfare facilities Nige.  ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Nigel on March 27, 2020, 05:12:15 pm

....I used to be a rope access project manager, and in risk assessment terms even if you travel separately, keep 2m, have dedicated personal kit, wear all ppe, and ensure all welfare facilities are wiped down after each use (ps how likely is that in reality?), then you still have rescues. It might be a rare occurence and you could rig for rescue if applicable and put new gloves by the rigging but it starts to raise questions about whether its all worth it....

I don’t remember you ever providing welfare facilities Nige.  ;)

That's what woods are for ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on March 27, 2020, 05:35:59 pm
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.
This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment)

Yeh, I get what you were saying and I totally agree. The first course of action for these sites (and any non-essential business) should be to shut down as soon as practical. Then only re-open once they've carried out a new risk assessment and can prove they'd be able to comply. Which most wouldn't. But unfortunately a lot have attempted to hide behind the mixed messages from the government and continue with business as usual for as long as they can get away with it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 27, 2020, 11:02:29 pm
I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
Incidentally I'm not implying that anyone who posts on here is that stupid but sadly it appears that some are. Been at work in the peak this week, and on this weekend, noticed a disappointing handful of cars at several popular places. Mainly walkers I think, not actually seen any climbers out, fortunately.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Drew on March 27, 2020, 11:13:22 pm
I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.

I can definitely understand why people are still heading out even though we're under restrictions. I've just been told I'm getting furloughed next week, and I'm having to consciously remind myself I can't just take my daughter for a walk in the Peak whenever I need to burn off her excess energy. I can't just "nip to Burbage for an hour of bimbling". I can't just pop to my mates house for a brew. It feels like gardening leave.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on March 27, 2020, 11:16:56 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201

Mixed messages again, with the police being criticised by David Gauke. So is he saying its OK to drive out to Curbar for a walk, or isn't it??

I think most on here think it isn't, and I agree.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Coops_13 on March 28, 2020, 01:37:47 am
The message here in Colorado is you can exercise outside in your local area including state parks but you can’t drive to an area to exercise. Seems clearer here but still open to interpretation as to what’s “your area” I suppose
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 28, 2020, 07:08:28 am
To be fair we took the kids down the park yesterday mid-afternoon and it was really quiet. I guess most people walk dogs in the morning and evening. I appreciate that I live in suburbia where everyone has gardens and we have woods nearby, so this won’t be representative. Just saying not all parks are rammed.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 28, 2020, 07:36:32 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201

Mixed messages again, with the police being criticised by David Gauke. So is he saying its OK to drive out to Curbar for a walk, or isn't it??

I think most on here think it isn't, and I agree.

The official guideline is this:
Quote
Following on from the government’s guidance on social distancing in relation to COVID-19, people should avoid travelling unless it is essential.


He appears to be saying the police are wrong to enforce. Like you, I think people should not be travelling. The problem is the lack of clarity in the government’s communication. What exactly do they mean by ’travelling’?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 28, 2020, 07:46:53 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201

Mixed messages again, with the police being criticised by David Gauke. So is he saying its OK to drive out to Curbar for a walk, or isn't it??

I think most on here think it isn't, and I agree.

Seems more like Big Brother Watch having a go here. Normally I have a fair amount of sympathy for their views, however it doesn't seem like the right time for sticking to a dogmatic position on personal liberties when people are dying.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on March 28, 2020, 08:10:12 am
To be fair we took the kids down the park yesterday mid-afternoon and it was really quiet. I guess most people walk dogs in the morning and evening. I appreciate that I live in suburbia where everyone has gardens and we have woods nearby, so this won’t be representative. Just saying not all parks are rammed.

I have generally been running or walking around the local park early in the morning before work. There's a few dog walkers and runners at that time but the park is huge so easy to keep big distances apart and people have mostly been sensible.

There aren't many open spaces around here and a lot of people have no gardens or very small ones.

Yesterday, I went for a walk at sunset instead. Quite a few children on the play equipment (no signs or tape to tell people not to). Plenty of people doing pullups on the climbing frames and monkey bars, including a group of 8 doing a full circuit using various play equipment (I suspect they may have been a large family). I did see one guy wipe down a bar before he started. The police had to break up a 10 person game of basketball.

If yesterday evening is anything to go by, full lockdown must only be a matter of time.

The authorities haven't helped, there are small signs at the each entrance to the park telling people to keep 2m apart and they have removed the crossbars from all the goal posts. But nothing at any of the play equipment, the basketball courts or the tennis courts.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 28, 2020, 08:56:56 am
Some SCIENCE for y'all just in:

https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/

TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.

I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
Incidentally I'm not implying that anyone who posts on here is that stupid but sadly it appears that some are. Been at work in the peak this week, and on this weekend, noticed a disappointing handful of cars at several popular places. Mainly walkers I think, not actually seen any climbers out, fortunately.

So this, I'm afraid isn't being borne out by the science. The 'bit of a jolly' is telling. WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car. There seems to be an idea that we must sit at home wringing our hands because people are dying. We are in this for the long haul and strategies need to reflect the impact on mental and physical health. The nation will be in much better shape if we dont continue this knee-jerk jumping on people travelling short distances to enjoy long periods of time out of doors. Have forwarded to Derbys Police also.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 28, 2020, 09:20:02 am
Some SCIENCE for y'all just in:

https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/

TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.

WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car.

Because at the moment hardly anyone is working. If the Peak was ‘open’ half of Sheffield and Manchester would be out there with their portable BBQs. It will be like a Bankie every day of the week.

Until they work out a way to ‘police’ the countryside (lots of Park Rangers Yosemite stylee) I can see why the easiest option is just to shut it.

Or, it’s just open to those lucky enough to live in it or 3 miles away. What about the mental health of those who live 4 miles away?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on March 28, 2020, 09:23:15 am
So this, I'm afraid isn't being borne out by the science. The 'bit of a jolly' is telling. WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car. There seems to be an idea that we must sit at home wringing our hands because people are dying. We are in this for the long haul and strategies need to reflect the impact on mental and physical health. The nation will be in much better shape if we dont continue this knee-jerk jumping on people travelling short distances to enjoy long periods of time out of doors. Have forwarded to Derbys Police also.

Agree but the problem is where do you draw the line? A 3 mile jaunt with your family might be fine. Can I drive 4,5,6,10 or 20 miles to get to an open space? Can I Mountain Bike when I get there? Can I climb? Can I drive 200 miles across the Country to walk up Snowdon stopping at Motorway services en route? etc.

As Toby said, official gov.uk advice is to minimise time out the house and it's difficult to argue that driving somewhere for exercise meets this criteria.

It would be easy to say 'exercise is permitted outdoors but apply some common sense' because if we've seen one thing over the last week or two it's that common sense is sadly lacking in a percentage of the population.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 28, 2020, 09:24:14 am
Btw I don’t for a minute think we’ll be through this in a couple of months. It will be interesting to see what solutions allow us to get out in the countryside in the medium-long term. I’m thinking of places in the US like Heuco.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 28, 2020, 09:27:18 am
Some SCIENCE for y'all just in:

https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/

TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.

I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
Incidentally I'm not implying that anyone who posts on here is that stupid but sadly it appears that some are. Been at work in the peak this week, and on this weekend, noticed a disappointing handful of cars at several popular places. Mainly walkers I think, not actually seen any climbers out, fortunately.

So this, I'm afraid isn't being borne out by the science. The 'bit of a jolly' is telling. WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car. There seems to be an idea that we must sit at home wringing our hands because people are dying. We are in this for the long haul and strategies need to reflect the impact on mental and physical health. The nation will be in much better shape if we dont continue this knee-jerk jumping on people travelling short distances to enjoy long periods of time out of doors. Have forwarded to Derbys Police also.

Well...

You took from that, what you wanted to take from that.

Parks are still open, because everyone is already aware that open spaces are not high risk (with the touching surfaces caveat).

It is the inter community traveling that the bans are trying to address. Closure of the remote parks, is not about people using the park, it’s about discouraging people from making unnecessary journeys, with all the inherent contact risks of such.

Quick addendum:
I understand that “some people” think this is all a”one shot wonder” and we close down once and it’s all over. Those people hear 6-12 months (or what ever) and think we’ll be locked in our houses for that period.
Fairly sure nobody commenting here believes that.
We’ll be locked down now, as long as it takes to slow the growth to a manageable rate. Then they’ll ease restrictions until the growth begins to take off again. Manageable growth, will be different in phase 2. Better preparations will have been made. More infected coped with.
The lockdown will return if growth exceeds capability again.

Rinse and repeat.

Pete nailed that in the first couple of pages.

Until a vaccine and/or reliable treatment protocol arrive, those who would die or become critically ill, will do so, regardless of our actions. The only thing we can do, is slow that rate of infection.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 28, 2020, 10:18:06 am
The problem is that if you look at it in terms of whats wong with 'me' going to burbage for a picnic the answer is of course very little. Replace me with 'everyone who wants to' and its somewhat different. If you live 3 miles from burbage I'm finding it hard to believe there wont be nice picnic and walking spots accessible without driving.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on March 28, 2020, 10:37:00 am

We’ll be locked down now, as long as it takes to slow the growth to a manageable rate. Then they’ll ease restrictions until the growth begins to take off again. Manageable growth, will be different in phase 2. Better preparations will have been made. More infected coped with.

The lockdown will return if growth exceeds capability again.

Rinse and repeat.


I don't think we will tbh. I think we'll lock down once, maybe twice, then then prevailing mindset will become, "well we had a go," and appetite for further lockdowns will disappear. Not saying that's good, or effective, or prudent, it's just my Trump-esque gut feeling for where this is headed.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on March 28, 2020, 11:11:13 am
TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.

It seems relatively obvious that infection rates would fall in open spaces versus enclosed rooms, but they fall even further under effective self-isolation in households because it's a dead-end. If people are given less option/incentive to go out, there's your scientific basis for closing things off.

Agree but the problem is where do you draw the line? A 3 mile jaunt with your family might be fine. Can I drive 4,5,6,10 or 20 miles to get to an open space? Can I Mountain Bike when I get there? Can I climb? Can I drive 200 miles across the Country to walk up Snowdon stopping at Motorway services en route? etc.

It would be easy to say 'exercise is permitted outdoors but apply some common sense' because if we've seen one thing over the last week or two it's that common sense is sadly lacking in a percentage of the population.

Totally agree with this. I can (and regularly do) run to Burbage, Stanage, Redmires from my door. Last weekend (7 days into self-isolation), I decided I would. Started off quiet, but Stanage was rammed. The majority of those people had probably only driven a few miles to get there, but when you have such areas that close to areas of high population density, saying a 5-mile drive maximum encompasses a lot of people, even if everyone follows those rules and don't drive further. Managed to find a way back home following wide paths where you could avoid people or open moorland paths where no-one goes. Made me realise that even though I'm following the letter of the law, I'm also part of the problem unless I make a sacrifice too. Since then, I've self imposed a 2km radius around the house for my runs and I feel much better about it.

It would be great if we could ask people to apply common sense, but it's fairly clear that a significant proportion are either selfish/can't be trusted or just f**king stupid. There's been people using the roads round the Porter/Mayfield valleys like a racetrack because it's quiet, groups of road bikers clearly not from the same household, groups of old folk all out with their dogs together.

Slightly OT, but on the subject of common sense, it's not just exercise where we can't be trusted. Today is our last day of self isolation and I get to go and replenish our seriously depleted food cupboards, probably from a limited selection on the shelves. Day 1 of self isolation, way before this all started ramping up, I tried to get a home shopping delivery and everything was booked up for 3 weeks. Given that I've never failed to get a delivery within 2 days before now, I'd put money on the fact that most of those people could have made it to a store. We've just about got by with family helping out and the local veg shop delivering stuff for us, but there's others who need those delivery slots more.

So yes, it's a sacrifice but it's one we should all be making. My wife and my sister both work in the NHS and are both frontline in this and to put it frankly, I'm scared for both of them. My parents and mother/father-in-law are in their 70s and won't get to see their granddaughter for 3 months minimum. It's far more important than squabbling over whether we get to go for a picnic or not.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 28, 2020, 11:14:59 am

We’ll be locked down now, as long as it takes to slow the growth to a manageable rate. Then they’ll ease restrictions until the growth begins to take off again. Manageable growth, will be different in phase 2. Better preparations will have been made. More infected coped with.

The lockdown will return if growth exceeds capability again.

Rinse and repeat.


I don't think we will tbh. I think we'll lock down once, maybe twice, then then prevailing mindset will become, "well we had a go," and appetite for further lockdowns will disappear. Not saying that's good, or effective, or prudent, it's just my Trump-esque gut feeling for where this is headed.

It will, I expect, depend on our capacity to absorb the critically ill, rather than sentiment.

I think that will increase, over time. Possibly, that’s already factored into the NHS Nightingale strategy.

I suspect society has a high capacity to accept losses, where there is dignity in death.
Too many dying uncared for? Not “trying our best” etc, would overcome the fatigue of lockdowns.

We’re going to find out.

Unfortunately.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on March 28, 2020, 11:25:48 am
China and Korea are not seeing huge second waves. We need to wait and see in the UK but the main lockdown might still be enough, if we come out of this with a ready and vigilant health system.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

Japan and Hong Kong will be worth watching as they exoect an upturn

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1096478/japan-confirmed-cases-of-coronavirus-by-state-of-health/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong-kong-sar/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 28, 2020, 11:28:27 am
Stabbsy, I'm confused by your post - you talk about not going shopping due to self isolation but you went out running part way through? Maybe this is a semantics thing but I view self isolation as literally not leaving your property for the relevant period.

I'm also not sold on the argument that grandparents not seeing their grandkids is somehow more/less important than other things currently being given up, since that comes down to personal priorities. that may be v important to them but others may not have grandkids/parents or may simply care more about picnics and climbing than seeing family
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 28, 2020, 11:36:10 am
China and Korea are not seeing huge second waves. We need to wait and see in the UK but the main lockdown might still be enough, if we come out of this with a ready and vigilant health system.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

Japan and Hong Kong will be worth watching as they exoect an upturn

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1096478/japan-confirmed-cases-of-coronavirus-by-state-of-health/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong-kong-sar/

It’s way too early. Even the Chinese haven’t fully lifted restrictions. Not to mention, they managed to restrict it to a regional outbreak.

In a few months, when this is established in third world countries (and probably the US), with a massive reservoir of potential reinfection?

Like I said, we’ll find out.
But, way too premature on that call Offwidth.
Don’t get me wrong, I hope for the best. My biggest take away from events so far? Limitations of modelling and capacity for the chaotic nature of real life to confound the most logical, most sensible or even most probable arguments. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on March 28, 2020, 11:47:23 am
Stabbsy, I'm confused by your post - you talk about not going shopping due to self isolation but you went out running part way through? Maybe this is a semantics thing but I view self isolation as literally not leaving your property for the relevant period.

I'm also not sold on the argument that grandparents not seeing their grandkids is somehow more/less important than other things currently being given up, since that comes down to personal priorities. that may be v important to them but others may not have grandkids/parents or may simply care more about picnics and climbing than seeing family

Valid question, but here’s the guidance - basically what everyone else is now doing but without the shopping. The difference between “normal” and self isolation was more significant at the time we started.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/self-isolation-advice/

Yep, grandparents point possibly isn’t relevant. I guess I was trying to make the point that everyone is making sacrifices - maybe not very well.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 28, 2020, 11:52:15 am
Quote
Well...

You took from that, what you wanted to take from that.

To be fair he did hand it to me on a plate:

Quote
While we are at it, we need to stop wasting resources on pointless measures such as closing remote parks and natural reserves, where few people come close to one another anyway. ...

These closed environments represent the sort of scenario we need to target—not British couples out on a jaunt to Sugar Loaf, Pen-y-Fan and other rustic destinations.

Quote
I've self imposed a 2km radius around the house for my runs and I feel much better about it.

Yep, I've limited myself to the Porter valley. But it is BUSY because everyone else is doing the same, and there are limited narrow paths with gates and stiles etc. Whereas I know lots of places within a ten minute drive that do not approach any remote communities and would be deserted even on a bank holiday. And the government and BBC have repeatedly stated it would be fine for me to do so. I'm afraid I'm never going to agree that the police targeting dog walkers at Curbar was the best use of their time right now.

It's a real shame last weekend coincided with the first well-forecast high pressure spell of the spring. If it had been as normal I think we could have had slower transition with a more sensible result.

Quote
I'm also not sold on the argument that grandparents not seeing their grandkids is somehow more/less important than other things currently being given up

Agreed, we're having regular video chats which is actually more contact then we have normally. But the internet is not a useful substitute for time in nature, the potential benefits of which - to the physical and mental health of the population - outweigh the miniscule increased risk of RTA's and broken ankles.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on March 28, 2020, 11:59:46 am
China and Korea are not seeing huge second waves. We need to wait and see in the UK but the main lockdown might still be enough, if we come out of this with a ready and vigilant health system.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

Japan and Hong Kong will be worth watching as they exoect an upturn

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1096478/japan-confirmed-cases-of-coronavirus-by-state-of-health/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong-kong-sar/

It’s way too early. Even the Chinese haven’t fully lifted restrictions. Not to mention, they managed to restrict it to a regional outbreak.

In a few months, when this is established in third world countries (and probably the US), with a massive reservoir of potential reinfection?

Like I said, we’ll find out.
But, way too premature on that call Offwidth.
Don’t get me wrong, I hope for the best. My biggest take away from events so far? Limitations of modelling and capacity for the chaotic nature of real life to confound the most logical, most sensible or even most probable arguments.

I'm not calling it Matt: I'm really saying we don't know and it might not happen, if we are lucky. SARS was stopped..One thing that I do think will happen is any cross-world reinfection will be sharply reduced by massive increases in border controls and quarantine for the next year or so.

I agree even the best modelling needs to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Richard J made an interesting contribution on the discussion on the Oxford paper of the other channel "On the "differential equation vibe" of the models, these are continuum models that in their simplest form look very much like chemical rate equations, appropriate for what chemical engineers would call "continuously stirred tank reactor" conditions.  Cities and nations aren't continuously stirred, though, so there are issues about how the spatial and stochastic characteristics of the spread are handled.  I know there's a bit of an effort starting now to coordinate contributions from modellers from other fields, for example in network dynamics, traffic modelling, some using agent based techniques and handling the very big data sets about personal mobility and interactions mobile phones give you."

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/oxford_uni_cv_epidemiology_study_-_good_news-717454
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 28, 2020, 12:27:01 pm
Stabbsy - interesting, hadn't clocked you were allowed out to exercise when in self-isolation, cheers for the link
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on March 28, 2020, 12:42:23 pm
Stabbsy - interesting, hadn't clocked you were allowed out to exercise when in self-isolation, cheers for the link
My wife’s a GP and was keen we followed guidance to the letter - it would pretty hypocritical if she was advising patients one thing and doing something else. I think the exercise wording has changed slightly since everyone else got put into lockdown, but the message is the same.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 28, 2020, 01:09:32 pm
Yep, I've limited myself to the Porter valley. But it is BUSY because everyone else is doing the same, and there are limited narrow paths with gates and stiles etc. Whereas I know lots of places within a ten minute drive that do not approach any remote communities and would be deserted even on a bank holiday. And the government and BBC have repeatedly stated it would be fine for me to do so. I'm afraid I'm never going to agree that the police targeting dog walkers at Curbar was the best use of their time right now.

The example I gave you on twitter was Pendle Hill. I've just looked at the 5mile radius from Barley which is the easiest way up and it encompasses everything from Clitheroe (me), Northern Yob on the other side of the hill and not least the entirety of Burnley. You can't summit without going over a stile. Last weekend it was estimated that ~1200 people visited.

I completely get your point about what is and what isn't likely to cause an issue but I don't see how you can legislate/enforce nuances such as someone who knows the area they're visiting very well and has the common sense to know where to go (e.g. you) and those that don't (i.e. 1199 others).

What do you think Malham cove would look like today if you suggested people could drive a short distance for exercise? My bet would be rammed.

What I'm seeing is people lack common sense (I can provide examples if required but the one that should strike a chord is people in my peer group still suggesting going bouldering).

Quote
It's a real shame last weekend coincided with the first well-forecast high pressure spell of the spring. If it had been as normal I think we could have had slower transition with a more sensible result.

Perhaps you're correct but I've never seen ~Quernmore, and all of the Trough of Bowland villages as busy as last weekend, ever. The parking I mentioned above is something I pass semi-regularly. Again, I've never seen it as busy.

Yeh, I get what you were saying and I totally agree. The first course of action for these sites (and any non-essential business) should be to shut down as soon as practical. Then only re-open once they've carried out a new risk assessment and can prove they'd be able to comply. Which most wouldn't. But unfortunately a lot have attempted to hide behind the mixed messages from the government and continue with business as usual for as long as they can get away with it.

Call my cynical but I think it's revealing the true colours of many Contractors (and perhaps those in the wider construction industry e.g. Clients are also unwilling to say 'stop').

Almost everyone (in the water industry at least) has a tagline along the lines of "nobody comes to work to get hurt", "we're safe AF", but I think we're now finding out which of those actually believe it (morally) and those that say it (to get work). The latter seem to take risks where they can.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on March 28, 2020, 01:20:16 pm
Quote
Well...

You took from that, what you wanted to take from that.

To be fair he did hand it to me on a plate:

Quote
While we are at it, we need to stop wasting resources on pointless measures such as closing remote parks and natural reserves, where few people come close to one another anyway. ...

These closed environments represent the sort of scenario we need to target—not British couples out on a jaunt to Sugar Loaf, Pen-y-Fan and other rustic destinations.

I disagree on closing remote parks. As I said in my earlier post, we need to remove the incentive for people to travel and, if it has that effect, it's a sensible action in my opinion. If you could guarantee you weren't going to meet anyone then I'd agree that the risk of an RTA/broken ankle probably is outweighed. The problem is that we live in a country with areas of high population density where a large proportion of people are mobile. If you let one person out, you have to let everyone out and that's where the problems start.

Whether we should be using resources to police it is another question. The ideal scenario would be that people would listen, understand why it's necessary and follow the rules, freeing police up to concentrate on other stuff.

Quote
Quote
I've self imposed a 2km radius around the house for my runs and I feel much better about it.

Yep, I've limited myself to the Porter valley. But it is BUSY because everyone else is doing the same, and there are limited narrow paths with gates and stiles etc.

Exactly why I've not been running up Porter Clough. It's straight outside the door and my normal way out to the Peak, but I can pretty much guarantee I'll meet people and won't be able to pass at distance. The bridleway up Clough Lane is OK, but I've basically stuck to roads. The roads round the Porter and Mayfield have been fairly quiet other than the occasional d**khead in a (pseudo) sports car.

Quote
Whereas I know lots of places within a ten minute drive that do not approach any remote communities and would be deserted even on a bank holiday. And the government and BBC have repeatedly stated it would be fine for me to do so.

As do I, but should we be allowed out because we know places that are quiet and everyone else have to stay in because they don't?

Quote
Quote
I'm also not sold on the argument that grandparents not seeing their grandkids is somehow more/less important than other things currently being given up

Agreed, we're having regular video chats which is actually more contact then we have normally.

We're doing the same with the video chats, but it isn't the same. Both sets of grandparents are local and have seen her pretty much weekly since birth. It's a big change for them and for her.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 28, 2020, 01:42:57 pm
Call my cynical but I think it's revealing the true colours of many Contractors (and perhaps those in the wider construction industry e.g. Clients are also unwilling to say 'stop').

Almost everyone (in the water industry at least) has a tagline along the lines of "nobody comes to work to get hurt", "we're safe AF", but I think we're now finding out which of those actually believe it (morally) and those that say it (to get work). The latter seem to take risks where they can.

This is the environment I feel that I'm navigating. But I've always felt that this is the reality of the construction/industrial world. Maybe I'm just more cynical!

It comes back to the moral dilemma I posted about 100 pages back, which this event forces on society.


JB, bit surprised to see you post that about going out into nature. I mean I totally agree with you, going to these places is basically harmless (and beneficial to you/ your family). But this event just obviously forces you to comply or be a part of the problem. Because the model of infectious spread is a system in which you and your family's good sense and local knowledge is an irrelevant drop in the ocean of mass population behaviour. Peoples' behaviour follows other peoples' behaviour. If you, why not everyone.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 28, 2020, 01:55:39 pm
I've blown hot and cold about this since the start. As it stands now, with the guidance as it is, I can see the following things are out.
Driving to a crag/walk
Sport
Trad
Bouldering with sub prime landings or where you might go high.

But then I think, what about if you lived at the foot of Baildon Bank (some climbers do)? Why not go for a potter or do a bit of traversing or have a session on Pinch 32?
If I still lived with my parents I'd be a 20 min walk from Pex and could do some laps on the Pisa Wall traverse.
For my own situation, I can see my local bouldering spot from the upstairs window of my house. It's not great but I could have some session there on some crap lowballs (there's actually a 7B+ there that I could have a go on). The main issue is that I'd only bother climbing there if I drove, so it's out. I actually went for a run up there this morning and don't think I was ever more than 3km from the house as the crow flies.

Then I remembered that I live a 0.8 mile walk from the very uninspiring Gilstead Crag. I could walk there on quiet residential roads and have a go at a new lowball 7A that's been done there. Why not?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 28, 2020, 02:03:12 pm
I think the biggest issue  is other people seeing you doing whatever it is you're doing be it bouldering/leading or hanggliding; and thinking 'fuck it' and doing whatever it is they like doing. This spreads, like coronavirus, into more and more people thinking fuck it and doing what they like doing.

The point being, don't do anything other than stay at home or walk around locally; or if your little bouldering crag is within a local walk and is low risk and nobody goes there, then don't be seen by anyone..

Obvs other risks are social contact or risk of accident - clearly both are low likelihood in the case of being lucky enough to live local to a bouldering venue where you can do low level stuff. I'm lucky enough to be able to walk to a few places, haven't climbed in two weeks but I probably will in the next 2 months. If I had to drive to get there, or if the places were in the public eye, or if the bouldering wasn't 'low risk', then I wouldn't go.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 28, 2020, 02:08:03 pm
Therein is the problem. The closest shithole is popular with dog walkers.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kelvin on March 28, 2020, 02:40:13 pm
Northamptonshire - home of no crags whatsoever.

We were walking yesterday, I'm currently moored just SE of Northampton and the countryside is quite lovely, lots of footpaths and it's easy to avoid people and villages - we had a walk through a bit of a strange small wooded valley at the top of a hill. Spotted some limestone on one side, all overgrown and broken, overhanging in one part. It turns out it was a quarry, very many years ago. I got rather excited for an hour or so.
We've been walking withing a three mile limit of the boat mooring, which seems fair but I'm so happy we moved just before all this started - I think in the town, I may have gone a little stir crazy with just the local park to walk round.

I've been surprised at the amount of people who've said they'd pop by tho 🤔
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 28, 2020, 03:42:23 pm
I think the biggest issue  is other people seeing you doing whatever it is you're doing be it bouldering/leading or hanggliding; and thinking 'fuck it' and doing whatever it is they like doing. This spreads, like coronavirus, into more and more people thinking fuck it and doing what they like doing.

The point being, don't do anything other than stay at home or walk around locally; or if your little bouldering crag is within a local walk and is low risk and nobody goes there, then don't be seen by anyone..

Exactly this, to which I would add the risk of people reacting very negatively to whatever you're doing. As an example, the other day I witnessed a woman come out of her house to scream at a couple for the perceived crime of nothing more than sitting on a bench. How would she or others like her react to someone climbing?

There's a dry stone wall just round the corner from my house. I've thought several times it'd be worth a go, however I think it's not unlikely I'd have the police called on me given its proximity to other houses!

It's interesting to see the evolution of arguments in this thread. Less than a week into lockdown, with the official advice having been strengthened, and we're already looking for loopholes....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 28, 2020, 05:44:39 pm
It's hardly a loophole if it's clearly allowed under the government's guidance, which it is. In fact the arguments against it aren't about whether it presents a risk of infection or to the NHS, but about what impact it might have on non-climbers who don't know what they're looking at. Not the strongest arguments. Given the context of where the crag is, I would have thought it would be obvious to observers that a climber hadn't traveled to get there.

I think the point of this thread, and why I've to'd and fro'd about the answer to the original question is that climbing is incredibly broad, covering everything from urban shuffling on graffiti-ridden crags to onsight soloing E9. National organisations and government naturally communicate most effectively by easy to communicate edicts, but these don't necessarily stand up to nuance.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 28, 2020, 06:15:40 pm
What would you say the maximum allowable distance to walk to a crag would be Will?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 28, 2020, 06:18:11 pm
That is a very good question.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 28, 2020, 06:21:44 pm
Thing is Will, lots of things are clearly allowed by the guidance, but don’t follow the spirit of the guidance. Which is to stay inside as much as possible.

It’s quite scary how a little bit of non compliance, or a bit of extra travelling can spoil everyone’s efforts to control the outbreak.

This vid shows some neat examples with a (very) toy model.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=gxAaO2rsdIs
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 28, 2020, 06:31:31 pm
Loophole comment wasn't directed at you necessarily Will. As much to myself as anyone  ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gollum on March 28, 2020, 06:38:02 pm
I would suggest unless you can walk, run or cycle up a particular route or problem it is not only counter to the spirit of the government’s position, but also the letter of it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 28, 2020, 06:43:01 pm
I would suggest unless you can walk, run or cycle up a particular route or problem it is not only counter to the spirit of the government’s position, but also the letter of it.

Well, as a point of fact, that's not actually right. The guidance is that you should only leave home for limited purposes, one of which is to take exercise once a day "for example a run, walk, or cycle".
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 28, 2020, 06:50:56 pm
I witnessed a woman come out of her house to scream at a couple for the perceived crime of nothing more than sitting on a bench.

Maybe the assailant was a member of UKBenches.com, a forum for bench-sitting enthusiasts which had recently come to a consensus that sitting on benches is off the cards for now? The victims could be bench fans who were new to the scene and hadn't checked UKBenches to see what they could and couldn't do?






I'm not really making any point at all in this post.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gollum on March 28, 2020, 06:52:21 pm
Unless I misunderstand the words “a” and “or” I would hold my position and think it is a point of fact. There is no “and”
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 28, 2020, 06:55:38 pm
When they announced the rules they did also say one form of exercise once a day. I would have thought the walk to get to the boulders would be one form of exercise and bouldering another. This can get so much worse if people take the piss - both in deaths and restrictions. I had a message from a friend in Italy today. At weekends they can't even leave the house anymore and certainly can't go running or have picnics in the countryside. It good that it sounds like nearly everyone in our community is doing the right thing even though we are clearly desperate to get out!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 28, 2020, 06:58:31 pm
Hmmm. I don't think you're right. The inclusion of the words "for example" clearly indicate that the list is not exhaustive.



Oh, I see what you mean. So because you have to walk there you can't then put your shoes on and start climbing? That is certainly one interpretation of it.


Btw, I'm not saying that I'm going to this place, just wondering aloud.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 28, 2020, 07:09:15 pm
Its a pretty obvious interpretation in the context of the travel ban and what the government are trying to do. Otherwise how far can I walk to go climbing will? If its a bit far how about I cycle there - is that OK?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gollum on March 28, 2020, 07:23:23 pm
At the moment the interpretation that looks the most restrictive is probably the correct one, whether we like it or not.

If this feels like a delicate subject, it is insignificant in comparison to the battles going on in the ultra running world about how far you can run.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 28, 2020, 07:25:14 pm
Btw, I'm not saying that I'm going to this place, just wondering aloud.

You're not alone. I really want to get Pinch 32 finished off and have already checked how long it would take to walk there (a really long time....not gonna happen).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 28, 2020, 07:30:52 pm
Thing is Will, lots of things are clearly allowed by the guidance, but don’t follow the spirit of the guidance. Which is to stay inside as much as possible.

It’s quite scary how a little bit of non compliance, or a bit of extra travelling can spoil everyone’s efforts to control the outbreak.

This vid shows some neat examples with a (very) toy model.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=gxAaO2rsdIs

Those vids are great Stu, thanks for sharing.

They do however raise issues that can be interpreted in ways counter to the intended message.
Most obviously:
at 11min 20secs when it shows the effect of social distancing, at various levels of effectiveness.
The model predicts that anything other than 100% effective social distancing results in a long tail of infections, and approx 50% of the population becoming infected 'eventually'.
The difference between 90% social distancing and 50% social distancing is *very* minor (not minor if you're one of the relatively few extra dead people or a relative of one, obvs).
People could rightly or wrongly infer that '70% social distancing' - however you define that in real life - is probably going to be as effective as 90% social distancing in our fuzzy real world.

Implication for people interpreting it as it's not that bad to go out walking, bouldering or limited socialising should be clear.

The only measures in the models which prevent large percentages of the population *eventually* becoming infected are anti-virals or vaccine. 100% social distancing also stops infection, but is
a. not possible to achieve
b. not sustainable even if you did achieve it

I'd like to know what time frame 'eventually' covers. I'd bet that it's around 18-24 months.

I'm not sure if any of the combined measures bring the infections to zero, without the anti-viral/vaccine measure?

The models just reinforce that it comes back to the race for a vaccine/anti-viral. Minimise spread in the short term, hope for the game-changer vaccine/anti-viral within 6-12 months. If it doesn't come within that time frame, then at least 50% of the populations of all major nations in the world will eventually become infected (with associated IFR).
Sorry to be a downer!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 28, 2020, 07:57:57 pm
I thought that was obvious, Pete?
It’s certainly been no secret.

The Father-in-law (the big cheese doctor), keeps saying “we’re all going to get it eventually, just try and do it at a quiet time”.
He is, in fact, a proper Job’s comforter about the whole thing, passing his children all his life insurance details and generally being practical in a macabre sort of way (as usual).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 28, 2020, 08:11:14 pm
Well, yeah I've certainly always thought it since this came about. Just checking! As you were..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 28, 2020, 08:17:56 pm
Well, yeah I've certainly always thought it since this came about. Just checking! As you were..

It’s a fair point.
I’m not sure many actually grasp that “flatten the curve” means “don’t let them all die in the same two week period”.
Plenty of people out there think this is some sort of cure(?). Not sure how to word it.
Sucks to think about, don’t it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Mugabe251 on March 28, 2020, 08:23:28 pm
So how exactly is creating bottlenecks of human beings in local parks within Manchester and Sheffield, who would otherwise be going to the Peak, going to reduce transmission rates? A real head scratcher, if I do say so myself :-\
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 28, 2020, 08:27:46 pm
Because as others have said transmission in open air seems to be minimal, but you reduce mixing of communities, traffic (and therefore traffic incidents), fuel consumption (and therefore use of petrol stations) and a range of other reasons, hopefully including helping people think of the situation as something that needs to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 28, 2020, 09:00:00 pm
A head scratcher for other countries too. The answer has generally been to close the parks and stop people leaving the  house as much. Its not been to encourage people to disperse to the countryside and crack on with bouldering and climbing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on March 28, 2020, 09:05:48 pm
I've seen loads of videos of the police dispersing crowds with canes in India. No one seems to care though
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Christobal on March 28, 2020, 09:12:01 pm
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.)  :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 28, 2020, 09:15:16 pm
I've seen loads of videos of the police dispersing crowds with canes in India. No one seems to care though

Do you mean:

A) Indians don’t care about other Indians being dispersed by cane wielding coppers?
B) Indians don’t care about the lockdown?
C) No one cares about you watching videos about cane wielding coppers dispersing Indians?



Sorry.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on March 28, 2020, 09:18:54 pm
I've seen loads of videos of the police dispersing crowds with canes in India. No one seems to care though

Do you mean:

A) Indians don’t care about other Indians being dispersed by cane wielding coppers?
B) Indians don’t care about the lockdown?
C) No one cares about you watching videos about cane wielding coppers dispersing Indians?



Sorry.

 :lol: made me laugh though
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 28, 2020, 09:19:38 pm
I read it as crowds of cane-carrying Indians.. :smartass:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 28, 2020, 10:14:28 pm
Hi Pete.

You could draw those conclusions from watching the vid. It honestly never occurred to me that someone would take the “model” that seriously. The density of people, the speed at which they move, the distance they travel and the radius of infection in those vids are all totally arbitrary.

However it does illustrate some important points about how sensitive the outcomes are to what the exact transmission rate is, and how our small uncertainty as to its true value leads to a massive range of outcomes.

There are full powered epidemiology models you can download and run fairly easily (https://github.com/ryansmcgee/seirsplus) as well as online calculators for fairly decent models you can play with online (http://gabgoh.github.io/COVID/index.html) The only conclusion I can come to is that, for a plausible range of model inputs, this could last weeks to many months and lead to 20-100k fatalities. Which is a pretty big uncertainty.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 28, 2020, 11:09:55 pm
So how exactly is creating bottlenecks of human beings in local parks within Manchester and Sheffield, who would otherwise be going to the Peak, going to reduce transmission rates? A real head scratcher, if I do say so myself :-\

Frankly, having run through quite a few parks in Sheffield in the last week, they're basically okay, with people behaving as they should.

There seems to be confusion between people saying what is the additional risk in I just go out and XYZ.... Probably not a lot, if anything. The point is it's not an individual decision. Lockdown only works if everyone tries their hardest to actually stick to it and stays in their homes as much as possible.
It's a collective decision and actually the law, so people should really just stick to it and not take the piss. If they don't, more people will die, the lockdown will have to be tightened, and this shit will go on for longer.
Yeah it's not terribly exciting being stuck inside 23 hours as day, but to me at the moment it's definitely preferable to being at work basically permanently on call, getting strings of emails about PPE changes everyday from managers, none of whom are actually coming into work anymore.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on March 28, 2020, 11:29:41 pm

Maybe the assailant was a member of UKBenches.com, a forum for bench-sitting enthusiasts which had recently come to a consensus that sitting on benches is off the cards for now? The victims could be bench fans who were new to the scene and hadn't checked UKBenches to see what they could and couldn't do?


Screaming at people is simply not on. However, commonly touched hard surfaces are some of the most likely places to spread a virus in the outdoors. Most of the 2m risk data comes from being that close for some time. People should avoid benches and take care opening gates. We are lucky as our local rec on our daily walk has no gates... the benches are still quite busy.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 29, 2020, 10:13:24 am
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.)  :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer

Article in the FT on exactly this:

https://www.ft.com/content/31de03b8-6dbc-11ea-89df-41bea055720b?fbclid=IwAR15q3mMusCt4O9DXq5ophBxbiCfPc5nB9GJtYXLtr5PhmavKkb_nqYsLcM

Sounds like they're just at an earlier stage of the outbreak and are doing what the UK Gov did initially before back-tracking when the modelling predicted just how many people would die.

I'd expect a similar change of direction at some point Christer!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 29, 2020, 12:13:53 pm
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.)  :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer

It is the forth time I have watched this movie.

The first was when some Italian students of mine were doing some sentiment analysis from the early days of the outbreak in Lombardy. It was fucking terrifying to learn how relaxed everyone was in Italy since we knew from Wuhan how horrible it was going to turn out.

The second was when France and Spain saw what happened in Italy and did not act swiftly.

The third was when United Kingdom and United States thought they were going to be spared somehow, for very unclear reasons. With the added worry for my father in law who lives in New York who's new wife is on one of those barbarian zero-hour contracts.

The forth is watching Sweden's unbelievably flat response to the treat, knowing full well that my parents could well be infected any day now.

The film has ended in tears the first three times. But I'm sure Sweden will be spared, because...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 29, 2020, 01:49:19 pm
Hi Pete.

You could draw those conclusions from watching the vid. It honestly never occurred to me that someone would take the “model” that seriously. The density of people, the speed at which they move, the distance they travel and the radius of infection in those vids are all totally arbitrary.

However it does illustrate some important points about how sensitive the outcomes are to what the exact transmission rate is, and how our small uncertainty as to its true value leads to a massive range of outcomes.

There are full powered epidemiology models you can download and run fairly easily (https://github.com/ryansmcgee/seirsplus) as well as online calculators for fairly decent models you can play with online (http://gabgoh.github.io/COVID/index.html) The only conclusion I can come to is that, for a plausible range of model inputs, this could last weeks to many months and lead to 20-100k fatalities. Which is a pretty big uncertainty.


Instinctively From what we've been told, I think most reasonable people understand that - in the current situation involving unknown but high rate of infections - small changes in one variable can lead to huge changes in outcome.

But... JBs point - that the blanket policies which result from using the predictions of the R0 models may not be relevant or useful when looking at individual-scale behaviours - is based on a different point of view on the modelling and the relevance of the reproductive rate, here: https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/ (https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/)

My takeaway from reading through the viewpoint that JB linked to is that the most important point is kept for right at the very end - i.e. he appears to be saying that in smaller scale epidemics, the behaviour of individuals might be more important than populations. But he says that once daily infection rates reach population-wide scale (in the 10s or 100s of thousands), the blanket polices resulting from the R0 models become the most relevant. 


Whole text below as I think some will find it interesting and relevant...

.........
.........
I will return to Dr. Chun later in this article. But at this point, I’ll pivot back to COVID-19, and recommend an early-release version of a June, 2020 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) report, Identifying and Interrupting Superspreading Events—Implications for Control of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2, by Thomas R. Frieden and Christopher T. Lee. Echoing points made by Dr. Chun and others, the authors note, “SSEs highlight a major limitation of the concept of R0,” since R0, being a mean or median value “does not capture the heterogeneity of transmission among infected persons.”

I wrote about the epidemiological concept of R0 in Wednesday’s update because R0 lies at the heart of all those COVID-19 projections we see in the media. At the most basic level of analysis, computer modelers apply an R0 figure to some baseline pool of infected individuals, and then iterate the spread of the disease exponentially over time. But as I noted, the idea of R0 is based on the premise that people behave with some constancy over time, since the value isn’t an inherent biological constant associated with any particular pathogen; it’s basically a composite statistic that imputes everything from human sociology to hygiene practices to environmental conditions. And it can change in an instant when people are told to, oh, say, avoid sneezing in each other’s faces. And since R0-based models are (like disease spread itself) non-linear systems typically based on large numbers of iterations, even small changes in effective R0 can lead to wildly divergent values. That’s why the same British expert who very recently warned us of 500,000 COVID-19 deaths in Britain now says he expects fewer than 20,000.


In fact, one of the long-term effects of the COVID-19 crisis might be to accelerate a shift toward models that are less rooted in traditional R0 frameworks. Thanks to smartphones, the velocity of public-health information is now so high, and the penetration of that information so thorough, that prescribed behavioral changes and direct public interventions can radically disrupt disease transmission dynamics many times over within the time scale of a single pathogenic incubation period. In Wuhan, according to unpublished CDC data, the observed R0 for COVID-19 went from 3.86 to 0.32 in just a few weeks. On the Diamond Princess cruise ship, the rate went from about 15 to less than two once isolation protocols commenced.

What differentiates SSE generators from other infected individuals? The CDC authors go through a lengthy laundry list of possible factors, including possible variations between multiple disease sub-types. But the unfortunate bottom line is that they don’t know. It is even theoretically possible that asymptomatic individuals—such as Typhoid Mary all those years ago—may generate SSEs. However, the CDC authors do note that there were no known examples of an SSE being traced to asymptomatic individuals during the SARS epidemic of 2002-2003 (this being the related virus strain SARS-CoV-1, as distinct from the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic we face now). So that’s good news.

Indeed, the whole issue of SSEs more generally seems somewhat mysterious, even to experts, in part because a systematic analysis of super-spreading behaviour is difficult unless you know how a person conducts himself throughout his personal and professional life—including how he coughs, talks, laughs, eats and conducts himself in the kitchen and bathroom. These are hard things to measure. Even the task of researching a single sneeze is difficult. “A physician colonized intranasally with S. aureus exhibited a 40-fold increased airborne dispersal after acquiring an upper respiratory rhinovirus infection, becoming thus a ‘cloud adult,’ ” wrote Richard A. Stein in a 2011 International Journal of Infectious Diseases article. “And a study that examined volunteers with S. aureus nasal carriage revealed, on average, a two-fold increase in bacterial dispersion into the air after rhinovirus infection, with up to 34-fold higher dispersion observed in one volunteer. This process is mechanistically insufficiently understood, and one scenario that was proposed is that rhinovirus-induced swelling of the nasal turbinates could create a high-speed airflow that establishes aerosols” (my emphasis, Dr. Stein’s euphemisms).

But even if we have no way of detecting super-spreaders beforehand, our emerging understanding of their massive contribution to the spread of epidemics should help drive the campaign for more COVID-19 testing—and faster testing. From Seattle to South Korea, many of the biggest outbreaks were fuelled by a small handful of very sick, highly symptomatic people who drifted along for days before their condition was correctly treated and isolated. (In South Korea, some have noted, the problem was exacerbated by patients who went “doctor shopping,” spreading their germs in many different clinics.) Test everyone who is symptomatic, and test them early, and you will prevent SSEs.

While we are at it, we need to stop wasting resources on pointless measures such as closing remote parks and natural reserves, where few people come close to one another anyway. In an especially important section of the aforementioned CDC report, the authors note that even COVID-19 super-spreaders can’t seem to infect people effectively in open spaces: “Rapid person-to-person transmission of COVID-19 appears likely to have occurred in healthcare settings, on a cruise ship, and in a church. In a study of 110 case-patients from 11 clusters in Japan, all clusters were associated with closed environments, including fitness centers, shared eating environments, and hospitals, [where] the odds for transmission from a primary case-patient were 18.7 times higher than in open-air environments.” These closed environments represent the sort of scenario we need to target—not British couples out on a jaunt to Sugar Loaf, Pen-y-Fan and other rustic destinations.

We also need to be increasingly wary of computer models that apply a traditional R0-based approach to a novel coronavirus amidst a real-time public-health mobilization campaign whose speed and scale are likely unprecedented in human history. Even long before COVID-19 was a thing, infectious-disease experts such as James Lloyd-Smith were arguing that “the distribution of individual infectiousness around R0 is often highly skewed”; that approaches accounting for super-spreaders do a better job modelling the sudden cluster-based boom-and-bust quality of many diseases; and, crucially for today’s policymakers, that such analyses show how, in these cases, “individual-specific control measures outperform population-wide measures.”

As part of his approach, Lloyd-Smith introduced the “individual reproductive number,” v, a “random variable representing the expected number of secondary cases caused by a particular infected individual… drawn from a continuous probability distribution with population mean R0 that encodes all variation in infectious histories of individuals, including properties of the host and pathogen and environmental circumstances.” In essence, what he’s doing here is atomizing R0 into a probability cloud and assigning each (theoretical version) of us our own personal reproductive number. This is all very abstract. But all you have to do is listen to different people sneeze to know that this approach makes sense.

Dr. Chun, the aforementioned South Korean doctor who studied super-spreading in the context of MERS (another coronavirus that was much more deadly, but also much harder to catch) specifically concluded that the 2015 outbreak in his country showed up the “inadequacies in the traditional [R0-based] approach,” demonstrated that SSEs played “a major role in spreading infections like SARS and MERS,” and that “the prevention and control measures for SSE should be central in controlling such outbreaks. One missed super-spreader could cause a new outbreak…By taking advantage of heterogeneity, control measures could be directed towards the smaller group of highly infectious cases or the high-risk groups.”

Of course, the law of large numbers applies to all systems. And if we were resigned to a mass spread of COVID-19 throughout our societies, it probably would be fine to fall back on traditional model, since we’d be talking about daily infection rates on the scale of many tens or hundreds of thousands, or even millions, and so individual variations would be less meaningful. But as my Quillette boss Claire Lehmann has vigorously asserted, we are very much not resigned to that; and so instead find ourselves with many countries battling to keep their symptomatic case loads in three or four figures. This is on a scale that permits SSEs to assume a large—and perhaps even dominant—role in transmission mechanics.

When COVID-19 was first declared a pandemic 16 days ago, the traditional models were useful in warning us what would happen if (literally) nothing were done to stop it. But scarcely two weeks later, we are (thankfully) a long way from nothing. Let’s go after this disease in the way that does the most good, and stop policing the paths to Pen-y-Fan.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 29, 2020, 02:14:13 pm
I think it's interesting to take a snapshot of the climbing community and consider what would happen if it became public knowledge, via people posting on here, photos on FB, whatever, that they were interpreting the guidance as allowing climbing and going out anyway. There might be an initial period of anger and slagging of the people doing it but I think it highly, highly likely that within a week the number of people out would increase. I would be fucking fuming if I saw/heard that some selfish nob was out at Malham taking advantage of an empty crag, but if in a months time loads of other people were doing it I can see that I might crack, as might lots of others.

Now translate that to walking in a national park and think about how the population might respond. Within a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name. It's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law. People starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester." Obviously this is my example. At that point the lockdown has ceased to be effective, and it would have started with people taking individual decisions that are not in the spirit of the guidance. My interpretation anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy W on March 29, 2020, 02:24:43 pm
France is approaching week three of the lockdown, in the early part of the first week, there was similar debate and loophole/moral questioning. That seems a lifetime away, going out unless you have to is dumb! The real effort will be staying sane and avoiding the inevitable existential hole as all the best laid trading plans fall to alcohol and depression. I’m relatively happy I’ve climbed aboard my pre cris plateau, all that awaits now is injury and alcoholism 😉
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 29, 2020, 02:32:26 pm
I await our letter tomorrow.

But, I think the lockdown will intensify, not ease.

Outside observers simply don’t know what you are doing, as a climber going outside, and won’t bother “doing the maths” about how risky it is.
This includes the authorities.

Probably, screws will be tightened anyway, because “they” will take the most cautious route.


On the other hand, come June, things will ease up a bit. I can wait, not sure why others can’t. Plenty of other things to occupy my time and far bigger worries.

I know, I said I wouldn’t directly address the issue again. But most seem to be building up the justifications to head on out. Maybe that’s not what is happening, but it looks like it.

Spidermonkey is right.

Edit:

I mean, stop torturing yourselves.
You will almost be certainly be stopped, eventually. They aren’t going to listen to your excellently reasoned debate, because Plod will have more important things on his mind and already be pissed that they’re having to police things everyone has been told to stop already.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on March 29, 2020, 03:22:17 pm

When COVID-19 was first declared a pandemic 16 days ago, the traditional models were useful in warning us what would happen if (literally) nothing were done to stop it. But scarcely two weeks later, we are (thankfully) a long way from nothing. Let’s go after this disease in the way that does the most good, and stop policing the paths to Pen-y-Fan.

Firstly, if superspreaders were the most important factor the rate of infection  growth would be way faster. Otherwise I agree the models need treating with a pinch of salt. In western nations the population infection rate  is pretty consistent at doubling between 2 and 3 days so any tuned model will meet that. I'd suspect superspreaders are more likely a major problem early in outbreaks and, if after things calm down, in secondary outbreaks.

On Pen-y-Fan the author is ignorant for reasons that have been discussed  time and time again here:  travel to it (and fueling and shop vists), congregations in car parks (potentally all touching the same gates) and the impact on the emergency services if someone breaks an ankle on the top. It also undermines the government message on social distancing, which is the same dumb attitude that many UK libertarians don't seem to get: Quillette is one of their favorite web communities.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 29, 2020, 03:59:37 pm
That quillette article is awful. The biggest problem is that it’s predicated on the straw man that the epidemiologists somehow haven’t noticed that the problem is stochastic and depends on the behaviour of individuals.

Most models used for prediction take this into account somehow. For example, the simple model I linked above uses network graphs where you can make some estimates for how many people are connected to an individual.

More detailed models, like the Imperial flu model that started the Uk lockdown, have a detailed model for transmission that goes way beyond Ro. That model has written into it the different rates of contact people experience at work, at home, when shopping etc, all stratified by age group. It also models Ro not with a single value but a statistical distribution with broad tails - ie it includes superspreaders.

It also includes the effect of people travelling between communities and into/out of the Uk in a stochastic way. Which is one of the reasons the government asked us to reduce unnecessary travel.

There are quite a lot of people publishing blogs and academic papers right now who should leave this kind of communication to people who work in the area. I’d put the author of that quillette article firmly in that category.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 29, 2020, 04:09:28 pm
That quillette article is awful.

On a broader a point, is there ever anything good off their site? The people I’ve seen posting their articles before are those that think Jordan Peterson has some good ideas, so I’d sort of written of the whole thing as being toward the Alex Jones end of usefulness. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 29, 2020, 04:15:48 pm
That quillette article is awful.

On a broader a point, is there ever anything good off their site? The people I’ve seen posting their articles before are those that think Jordan Peterson has some good ideas, so I’d sort of written of the whole thing as being toward the Alex Jones end of usefulness. 

Everything I've ever read on it has been more or less as you say.

It seems to me that thousands of people (millions!) are pretty bored and pretending to be armchair epidemiologists or statisticians; I really think that now is the time to just listen to some actual experts, do what they say and hope that we all come out of the other side with nothing worse than extreme protracted boredom and weight gain.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 29, 2020, 04:25:45 pm
Agreed, though I realise I’m guilty on that front. At least I’m not publishing my ignorance on a national blog. I mean:

“ ...even small changes in effective R0 can lead to wildly divergent values. That’s why the same British expert who very recently warned us of 500,000 COVID-19 deaths in Britain now says he expects fewer than 20,000.”

Utter bullshit, perhaps it’s because the numbers represent two different scenarios, one in which nothing is done and other in which current social distancing is successful?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on March 29, 2020, 06:40:29 pm
Can anyone explain why China with a population of over 1 billion had 3000ish deaths yet 20k would be seen as a ‘result’ here?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 29, 2020, 06:48:11 pm
Yeah.
Hugely restrictive, rapid, shutdown and aggressive pursuit of infection vectors.
All whilst mobilising the resources of a nation that is actually an entire continent.
Coupled with advantageous geography, that gives large, relatively unoccupied hinterlands between cities.
And a few other things, like draconian powers and restricted civil liberties.

Europe is overcrowded, liberal and (relatively) disorganised.

Anyway, that was round 1. There still exists the possibility of a flare up.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 29, 2020, 06:52:50 pm
As Matt said the point is it’s not over in China. They will have to continue to identify and isolate carriers until a vaccine comes along or they’ll have another outbreak. Consensus in the UK is is too late for that sort of containment anyway.

Interesting perspective on Quillette Stu, happy to admit I knew nothing about the site and thought it looked credible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on March 29, 2020, 07:02:33 pm
Diolch
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 29, 2020, 07:14:38 pm
As Matt said the point is it’s not over in China. They will have to continue to identify and isolate carriers until a vaccine comes along or they’ll have another outbreak. Consensus in the UK is is too late for that sort of containment anyway.

Interesting perspective on Quillette Stu, happy to admit I knew nothing about the site and thought it looked credible.

I don’t think I’d have picked up on it, but I’ve been following a lot of epidemiologists pointing out the same flaws in other papers all week.

There’s a paper out today from two cosmologists who think they can learn something by applying a model used for magnetic fields of solids to Covid-19. At the end of pages of waffle they rediscover the Gaussian function. They should get in the sea.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 29, 2020, 07:18:05 pm
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.)  :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer

It is the forth time I have watched this movie.

The first was when some Italian students of mine were doing some sentiment analysis from the early days of the outbreak in Lombardy. It was fucking terrifying to learn how relaxed everyone was in Italy since we knew from Wuhan how horrible it was going to turn out.

The second was when France and Spain saw what happened in Italy and did not act swiftly.

The third was when United Kingdom and United States thought they were going to be spared somehow, for very unclear reasons. With the added worry for my father in law who lives in New York who's new wife is on one of those barbarian zero-hour contracts.

The forth is watching Sweden's unbelievably flat response to the treat, knowing full well that my parents could well be infected any day now.

The film has ended in tears the first three times. But I'm sure Sweden will be spared, because...

Sweden certainly seems to be enjoying some powerful magical thinking.

Sorry about the threat to your parents Jonas.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 29, 2020, 07:46:42 pm
Surely Toby already has enough exposure with his alt-right freedom to say offensive things Union Pseudo free speech union (https://freespeechunion.org/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwjoH0BRD6ARIsAEWO9DsLxtB2r_CD1DvvOEZuRqmNpotCsSqi500FAvtDQ2RNLKwNsjegshkaAm8lEALw_wcB) ? ::)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on March 29, 2020, 07:49:01 pm
Wow Toby Young, hard pass from me then! Will be a real shame to miss out on the libertarian stuff, but I guess I’ll stick to my libtard snowflake echo chambers.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 29, 2020, 07:50:39 pm
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.)  :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer

It is the forth time I have watched this movie.

The first was when some Italian students of mine were doing some sentiment analysis from the early days of the outbreak in Lombardy. It was fucking terrifying to learn how relaxed everyone was in Italy since we knew from Wuhan how horrible it was going to turn out.

The second was when France and Spain saw what happened in Italy and did not act swiftly.

The third was when United Kingdom and United States thought they were going to be spared somehow, for very unclear reasons. With the added worry for my father in law who lives in New York who's new wife is on one of those barbarian zero-hour contracts.

The forth is watching Sweden's unbelievably flat response to the treat, knowing full well that my parents could well be infected any day now.

The film has ended in tears the first three times. But I'm sure Sweden will be spared, because...

Sweden certainly seems to be enjoying some powerful magical thinking.

Sorry about the threat to your parents Jonas.

It has an entirely different population geography.

England (in particular in the Isles) is almost one big bloody city.
Massive, crowded, dormitory suburb lined, corridors between huge urban centres. Cheek by jowl.

Surely, Scandinavia (except Denmark) is much better placed to resist pandemics, than Western Europe.

So, maybe it’ll work for them? Or work better than it would have done here, perhaps.
Or not. The FT tracker shows their slope to be on a par with Italy, but ~3 weeks behind.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 29, 2020, 07:56:19 pm
JWI, are the graphs you're publishing daily on FB publicly available anywhere?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 29, 2020, 08:15:20 pm
Surely, Scandinavia (except Denmark) is much better placed to resist pandemics, than Western Europe.

Many Scandinavians live in high density cities; close to a tenth of the population of Sweden lives in Stockholm.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 29, 2020, 09:43:00 pm
JWI, are the graphs you're publishing daily on FB publicly available anywhere?
no. Can't been bothered.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 29, 2020, 09:48:39 pm
Fair enough.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 29, 2020, 09:56:19 pm
Andy, they publish similar charts in the FT daily. And there’s this site amongst others who plot that kind of data.

https://covid19dashboards.com/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 29, 2020, 09:57:03 pm
JWI, are the graphs you're publishing daily on FB publicly available anywhere?
no. Can't been bothered.

It’s a hard conversation. I almost turned my back on it. Nobody has wondered where our resident Italian expert has been lately for instance (I had a PM, can’t say I disagree with him).

I was genuinely hoping/wishing that the Swedish response might be correct for their situation.

 https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19 (https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19)

I think that’s what you’re after Andy?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 30, 2020, 12:27:18 am
Can anyone explain why China with a population of over 1 billion had 3000ish deaths yet 20k would be seen as a ‘result’ here?

China:
Communist dictatorship.
They can disappear journalists who publish stories that go too far against the party line.
Martial law, enforced with little compassion.
Obedient citizens.
Huge police and military per capita.
Censored media.
Large sparsely-populated areas between population centres, meaning containment more feasible.
Aggressive surveillance of population by state.
Grid-pattern (soulless) cities?? easy to monitor??

UK:
None of the above.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 30, 2020, 07:29:02 am
Andy, they publish similar charts in the FT daily. And there’s this site amongst others who plot that kind of data.

https://covid19dashboards.com/

I was just wondering, I see jwi's graphs on FB.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 30, 2020, 09:41:39 am
Quote
The platform is a fairly recent start-up and in my opinion has made one or two questionable hires (Toby Young as UK editor, for example)

Fuck's sake! Sorry guys, will try to be more circumspect in future.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 30, 2020, 10:42:46 am
Can anyone explain why China with a population of over 1 billion had 3000ish deaths yet 20k would be seen as a ‘result’ here?

China:
Communist dictatorship.
They can disappear journalists who publish stories that go too far against the party line.
Martial law, enforced with little compassion.
Obedient citizens.
Huge police and military per capita.
Censored media.
Large sparsely-populated areas between population centres, meaning containment more feasible.
Aggressive surveillance of population by state.
Grid-pattern (soulless) cities?? easy to monitor??

UK:
None of the above.

There might be limits to some of the above.
This is likely a paradigm shift moment, globally.

 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/videos-claim-show-violent-protests-china-amid-coronavirus-fears/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/videos-claim-show-violent-protests-china-amid-coronavirus-fears/)

 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/world/asia/coronavirus-china-youth.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/world/asia/coronavirus-china-youth.html)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 30, 2020, 12:53:44 pm
Can anyone explain why China with a population of over 1 billion had 3000ish deaths yet 20k would be seen as a ‘result’ here?

I strongly suspect that the data from China is fictional.

I plotted the total number of dead in Hubei per day (blue dots) versus logistic growth (simplest theoretical model for virus spread)

(https://i.imgur.com/tAfn1dS.png)

If this had been data collected by students I would probably fail them for making up data. I would at the very least interrogate them individually, and mark them down severly.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 30, 2020, 01:06:19 pm

If this had been data collected by students I would probably fail them for making up data. I would at the very least interrogate them individually, and mark them down severly.

jwi - because it fits too well; ie it is too obviously fabricated?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 30, 2020, 01:11:51 pm
Just so. This is what data from an experiment in physics or chemistry looks like.... not in medicine.

It is very difficult to imagine a scenario giving such perfect fit to a simple logistic function.

The data collected from countries with free press and more transparent institutions is a lot more noisy.

It is clear to me that there has to be some form of smoothing, for instance by averaging, to achieve such close fit to the theoretical curve. In absence of convincing explanation to the noise free behaviour of the graphs I will continue to ignore Chinese data.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on March 30, 2020, 02:12:39 pm
Saw pictures of a completely bone dry and mint Kilnsey on FB. Talk about cruel....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 30, 2020, 02:26:11 pm
Saw pictures of a completely bone dry and mint Kilnsey on FB. Talk about cruel....

Likewise. Its best not to think about it...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: moose on March 30, 2020, 02:38:24 pm
Just so. This is what data from an experiment in physics or chemistry looks like.... not in medicine.

It is very difficult to imagine a scenario giving such perfect fit to a simple logistic function.

The data collected from countries with free press and more transparent institutions is a lot more noisy.

It is clear to me that there has to be some form of smoothing, for instance by averaging, to achieve such close fit to the theoretical curve. In absence of convincing explanation to the noise free behaviour of the graphs I will continue to ignore Chinese data.

Sounds like a case for Benford's Law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 30, 2020, 04:22:12 pm
Just so. This is what data from an experiment in physics or chemistry looks like.... not in medicine.

It is very difficult to imagine a scenario giving such perfect fit to a simple logistic function.

The data collected from countries with free press and more transparent institutions is a lot more noisy.

It is clear to me that there has to be some form of smoothing, for instance by averaging, to achieve such close fit to the theoretical curve. In absence of convincing explanation to the noise free behaviour of the graphs I will continue to ignore Chinese data.

Sounds like a case for Benford's Law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law)

I think you’re being rather over suspicious. It’s cumulative data - that is a very good way of smoothing data in the first place.

I can have chaotic output from a model (my own work - nothing to do with viruses!!) that looks bonkers as a time series but smooths nicely to a curve when plotted as a cumulative.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 30, 2020, 04:35:55 pm
I hope so.

I checked with french data (the deaths are cumulative in france as well....) so far the french data is a lot less smooth.

It is perhaps not fair to compare them directly yet as we are just at the beginning in France
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 30, 2020, 04:54:43 pm
Likewise. Its best not to think about it...

If it makes it any easier I went out on the bike on Wed and it was truly glorious but both Fri (where I ventured near limestone areas) and yesterday (I cut the ride short) was baltic with significant wind chill. Climbing would've been grim. Perhaps Wed would've been nice at Malham but neither at Kilnsey.  :worms:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on March 30, 2020, 06:27:56 pm
Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.

Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on March 30, 2020, 07:27:31 pm
10 mm edge

7 seconds on 3 seconds off, x 40 reps = 9a???
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 30, 2020, 07:52:23 pm
First training session since the accident.

Did some work arounds to not load the injured pads too much which were not entirely pain free.

Weights tomorrow.  :weakbench:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 30, 2020, 08:14:24 pm
Not climbing but official police guidance in Devon and Cornwall is classing surging as daily exercise.
No driving to get there but If you can walk to the surf you can surf.

No different to climbing in my eyes.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on March 30, 2020, 08:25:00 pm
Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...

For one short session until your finger tips hurt so much or have fallen to bits.
Take a week off, repeat.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 30, 2020, 08:31:14 pm
Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...

For one short session until your finger tips hurt so much or have fallen to bits.
Take a week off, repeat.

Just like the winter we’ve just had then? 😃
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 30, 2020, 10:43:21 pm
Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.

Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
  :lol:
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: BrutusTheBear on March 30, 2020, 11:25:55 pm
Not climbing but official police guidance in Devon and Cornwall is classing surging as daily exercise.
No driving to get there but If you can walk to the surf you can surf.

No different to climbing in my eyes.
7 miles to Saunton  Sands my nearest beach. 
Besides the joke is on surfers because now it’s deemed OK to surf, it is FLAT, FLAT, FLAT for the foreseeable.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 31, 2020, 09:26:09 am
Agree, should not be allowed. Surfers at J Bay being loaded into a police van. South Africa is in total lockdown, can only leave house for food or medicine.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2020-03-30-watch-surfers-arrested-in-jeffreys-bay-for-breaking-lockdown-rules/

I could walk to the beach with my inflatable SUP in my back and go for a paddle, but won't be, just feels wrong.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Somebody's Fool on March 31, 2020, 09:28:44 am
Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.

Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
  :lol:
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.

Someone once told me that when he unleashed himself on the crags after his intensive systems training, he was spotted sitting on a rope on Bad, Bad Boy complaining the holds were too big.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on March 31, 2020, 09:37:39 am
Not climbing but official police guidance in Devon and Cornwall is classing surging as daily exercise.
No driving to get there but If you can walk to the surf you can surf.

No different to climbing in my eyes.

Yes in that any significant degree of participation raises considerably the chance of someone needing coastguard or mountain rescue, and at the moment its extremely selfish. 

Some people might be ok but you can't restrict participation,  and there are a lot of muppets out there.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 31, 2020, 09:59:09 am
2 mins walk to the beach for me, not a great beach but something at least.
Unlike a lot on here I am trying to operate as per what I am told and not what I feel is right so if they say I can surf I will be.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 10:12:50 am
2 mins walk to the beach for me, not a great beach but something at least.
Unlike a lot on here I am trying to operate as per what I am told and not what I feel is right so if they say I can surf I will be.

Doesn't this translate as: Despite knowing that clearly the government and police cannot give guidance for every single niche activity, I intend to take advantage of this omission, despite the fact that I know its probably not a good idea?

Doing what one feels is right is surely more important than the absolute letter of the law?

On a separate note, very jealous of your proximity to the coast!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 31, 2020, 10:57:01 am
Come on then, who's going to post the links to the two guardian articles, yesterday and today, about the police being accused of overreaching their powers... And the Supreme court judge accusing Derbyshire police of shaming British policing tradition etc. etc.

(Wondering out loud) I wonder if you peel away a lot of the noise on what the right thing to do by the science is, do people's views on what the right balance should be between liberty versus compliance, align at least somewhat with their politics... Nanny state Sheffield?

I'm currently on the fence. Haven't used my vehicle for nearly two weeks except to go to the supermarket. But within 10 minutes or so of my house I can walk into the hills (and continue onto the carneddau if I wanted) or to the beach or to bouldering spots. Easy for me to be pious. I know friends however who've been driving out to the hills to exercise because they live in an urban area and exercising around the streets doesn't satisfy them enough.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 11:04:09 am
Police are definitely acting like nobs. Equally we aren't getting the reports of them doing their job reasonably I suppose.

article here...https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/30/uk-police-guidelines-coronavirus-lockdown-enforcement-powers-following-criticism-lord-sumption

I think its simultaneously possible to think that and also think that that we still shouldn't be going climbing. Thats basically my view anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 31, 2020, 11:05:53 am
2 mins walk to the beach for me, not a great beach but something at least.
Unlike a lot on here I am trying to operate as per what I am told and not what I feel is right so if they say I can surf I will be.

Doesn't this translate as: Despite knowing that clearly the government and police cannot give guidance for every single niche activity, I intend to take advantage of this omission, despite the fact that I know its probably not a good idea?

Doing what one feels is right is surely more important than the absolute letter of the law?

On a separate note, very jealous of your proximity to the coast!

If Gav really feels he can surf safely and can walk there from his house, I think it's overly harsh to tell him to look out his window at the waves. The only risk is of him calling out the emergency services and we should trust people's judgement here a little perhaps?

It's a slightly different situation to climbing where I could climb at an empty venue 5 mins from my house, smother the holds in virus and infect the next poor bugger to turn up after I leave.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 11:08:52 am
Quote
Despite knowing that clearly the government and police cannot give guidance for every single niche activity,

Not the case. The Police in Cornwall were asked specifically about surfing and said they had no issue as long as you weren't driving there.

Quote
And the Supreme court judge accusing Derbyshire police

Well his reasonable criticism of the Police was followed by a load of rubbish which rather undermined his credibility. Although Caff (no centrist) said he's put some good stuff out in the past so probably give him the benefit of the doubt.

The crux of the issue seems to not be the exercise, length or location, but whether it is acceptable to drive a short distance. I'd like to assume the police attend a lot of RTAs so regard it as higher risk than the rest of us, but I suspect it's more likely that they're an easy target.

Whereas in London - where hardly anyone drives anyway - the police are moving people on for sitting in the Park. Apparently exercise requires movement.

I don't think either are doing any favours. They should be concentrating on breaking up groups of people, particularly indoors, and stopping non-essential businesses from carrying on regardless.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 31, 2020, 11:13:39 am
Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.

Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
  :lol:
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.

Someone once told me that when he unleashed himself on the crags after his intensive systems training, he was spotted sitting on a rope on Bad, Bad Boy complaining the holds were too big.

I don't know if it's different now, but there were quite a lot of people in Sheffield in the 90s who didn't really deliver on their training.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 31, 2020, 11:15:36 am
Pete, the gap between what the govt has legislated for and what it publicly says the population ought to do is the problem here. The police are being pilloried for trying to enforce the latter, which does not have legal authority. They need clear instructions to work from.

It is incompetent communication from gov.uk

Here’s another: what provision are UK state schools making for children at home? If you find official guidance -please let me know! I’ve looked on gov.uk, DFE and Ofsted websites but can only find this:

Quote
6.1 What support will be available to parents to help them educate their children at home?
More information will follow about what DfE is doing to support parents. We are working with the BBC and others to provide resources for children to access while at home.

Taliking to friends and family KS2 provision seems to range from almost the full curriculum sent home down to virtually nothing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 11:15:55 am

If Gav really feels he can surf safely and can walk there from his house, I think it's overly harsh to tell him to look out his window at the waves. The only risk is of him calling out the emergency services and we should trust people's judgement here a little perhaps?

It's a slightly different situation to climbing where I could climb at an empty venue 5 mins from my house, smother the holds in virus and infect the next poor bugger to turn up after I leave.

Yep I agree re: personal responsibility; I was more questioning the idea of not doing what one felt was right despite it being technically allowed.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on March 31, 2020, 11:17:51 am
Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.

Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
  :lol:
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.

Someone once told me that when he unleashed himself on the crags after his intensive systems training, he was spotted sitting on a rope on Bad, Bad Boy complaining the holds were too big.

I don't know if it's different now, but there were quite a lot of people in Sheffield in the 90s who didn't really deliver on their training.
:lol: It's no different now.
Except maybe now it's okay for fully indoor climbers to own up to the fact and not pretend it's training for something else.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 11:26:24 am

Not the case. The Police in Cornwall were asked specifically about surfing and said they had no issue as long as you weren't driving there.


Do you have a link for this? I thought I saw it on Twitter in passing yesterday and can't seem to find it now.


The crux of the issue seems to not be the exercise, length or location, but whether it is acceptable to drive a short distance.


I agree. I maintain that it isn't, because 5 minutes for someone on the eastern edge of Sheffield to Burbage will become 10 mins, then the whole of Sheffield and eventually it becomes just like any normal weekend, and the lockdown has ceased to work. As I commented a few pages back:

"I think it's interesting to take a snapshot of the climbing community and consider what would happen if it became public knowledge, via people posting on here, photos on FB, whatever, that they were interpreting the guidance as allowing climbing and going out anyway. There might be an initial period of anger and slagging of the people doing it but I think it highly, highly likely that within a week the number of people out would increase. I would be fucking fuming if I saw/heard that some selfish nob was out at Malham taking advantage of an empty crag, but if in a months time loads of other people were doing it I can see that I might crack, as might lots of others.

Now translate that to walking in a national park and think about how the population might respond. Within a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name. It's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law. People starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester." Obviously this is my example. At that point the lockdown has ceased to be effective, and it would have started with people taking individual decisions that are not in the spirit of the guidance. My interpretation anyway."
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 31, 2020, 11:31:36 am

If Gav really feels he can surf safely and can walk there from his house, I think it's overly harsh to tell him to look out his window at the waves. The only risk is of him calling out the emergency services and we should trust people's judgement here a little perhaps?

It's a slightly different situation to climbing where I could climb at an empty venue 5 mins from my house, smother the holds in virus and infect the next poor bugger to turn up after I leave.

Yep I agree re: personal responsibility; I was more questioning the idea of not doing what one felt was right despite it being technically allowed.

A point to also consider is that of public perception. Gav may be perfectly safe paddling into a few grovellers at his local break, but is it worth it as some people would consider any surfing as a potentially dangerous activity, and / or feel it is "not right" to be doing it at this time. This could potentially have repercussions and damage relationships with surfers for a long time, both locally and further afield if they are shared on social media.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 31, 2020, 11:34:50 am
Gav - can I ask where its come from thats its fine to go surfing? A quick look on Devon and Cornwall police website and in the coranavirus q and a there is the question can I go surfing. It says no, please dont go surfing per the advice of surfing England.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on March 31, 2020, 11:40:19 am
Come on then, who's going to post the links to the two guardian articles, yesterday and today, about the police being accused of overreaching their powers... And the Supreme court judge accusing Derbyshire police of shaming British policing tradition etc. etc.

My Dad was a (traffic) policeman throughout his entire working life and it left me with an inherent trust in the police which is gradually slipping.

The Police should know their remit and act within it. They're perfectly at liberty to recommend best practice (i.e. the Gov. guidelines) alongside their enforcement. I'm astounded if they don't know the difference and concerned if they chose to not acknowledge it.

I think Judge Dredd was operating their social media yesterday.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 11:40:35 am
Just found it, its here: https://www.surfingengland.org/do-not-go-surfing/

Its also on their instagram.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 11:54:09 am
I assume everyone who thinks it isn't acceptable to drive to exercise is also not driving to the supermarket and making do with what they can get from walking to their local shop? I know which I would prioritise, ymmv. I'd also like reiterate I'm not so much thinking of myself as those stuck in flats in city centres.

Quote
People starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester."

I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local. If police want to waste our/their time patrolling Burbage they could use some discretion with distance.

Quote
It's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law.

No, we're in that position because of a lack of information. The regs only came out a few days ago, and to think the words haven't been considered very carefully is naive.

Quote
Within a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name.

No. We're in this for the long haul, we need to concentrate on measures that most effectively slow the spread while taking the least restrictive approach. I am hoping the Police overreaction on Curbar etc was to dissuade people travelling from afar and now that has ceased and proper regs are in place they will let locals get on with harmless healthy activities.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: steveri on March 31, 2020, 11:59:53 am
I've just done a motivational (ha!) email to my running club asking people to keep a lid on things. 'Normal' exercise for some of our lot is just not normal for most. A 20 miler sends the wrong message.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 12:02:27 pm

I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local.


Fair enough, but I just don't think 'local' will cut it. There is such a massive amount of people that consider that Peak District local (using that as a case study). Sheffield, Manchester, Derby, Nottingham, Stoke. All within half an hours drive of the Peak District. Where do you think they are all going to go since so many are at home, kids are off school, sun is coming out? It would be a shambles. You may be within five minutes drive, so the 'local' rules you suggest would work well for you; not so much for everyone else.

I don't have an exit strategy either and agree that in time these restrictions will need to be eased, but think we should err on the cautious side for now.

Also, no, I am not driving to the supermarket.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 31, 2020, 12:11:39 pm
I assume everyone who thinks it isn't acceptable to drive to exercise is also not driving to the supermarket and making do with what they can get from walking to their local shop? I know which I would prioritise, ymmv. I'd also like reiterate I'm not so much thinking of myself as those stuck in flats in city centres.

Quote
People starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester."

I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local. If police want to waste our/their time patrolling Burbage they could use some discretion with distance.

Quote
It's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law.

No, we're in that position because of a lack of information. The regs only came out a few days ago, and to think the words haven't been considered very carefully is naive.

Quote
Within a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name.

No. We're in this for the long haul, we need to concentrate on measures that most effectively slow the spread while taking the least restrictive approach. I am hoping the Police overreaction on Curbar etc was to dissuade people travelling from afar and now that has ceased and proper regs are in place they will let locals get on with harmless healthy activities.

1: You’re actually preaching to the choir, I don’t think any of us think going climbing is a serious infection risk.

2: For sure, whilst things might not return to normal, restrictions will be up and down like a whore’s drawers (well, normal drawer activity for ladies of the night. I imagine they’re under employed right now) and you’ll be allowed out at some point; then shut in again.

3: “They” will not be listening, because “They” will take the most cautious route. Some patience on our part and I think a common sense interpretation will settle into place. Everyone is a bit lost.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 31, 2020, 12:14:02 pm

I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local.


Fair enough, but I just don't think 'local' will cut it.

Got to agree with the monkey here. This is RSPB Dove Stone, after the lockdown, and after they'd closed the carpark.

https://twitter.com/RSPBDoveStone/status/1242916417718059010?s=20

I'd wager many of the people have come from Sheff/Manc consider themselves 'local'. Without some sort of pressure not to drive any distance for exercise I don't see how you stop these scenes repeating themselves every nice day, sadly.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 31, 2020, 12:15:22 pm
NB: I wrote this and it then said that 14 new replies have been posted. So this is probably all irrelevant now.

I have no idea whether there is a surfing equivalent of traversing or lowballing. If there is one then I would suggest that Gav would be perfectly sensible to walk two minutes from his house to do it. We have to ask ourselves why are we doing this? Is it to control the spread of an infectious disease and reduce the load on a stretched health service, or is it some form of collective self-flagellating penance?

For those who would argue that Gav is walking and then surfing (thus undertaking two forms of exercise), my understanding is that the spirit of the legislation is to get people to leave the house once a day for exercise (which is better for stopping spread than going out more than once), as opposed to trying to stop people carrying out two forms of exercise while they are out (which does nothing to slow the spread provided that one of those forms of exercise is not licking door handles). Those people can feel free to report me to the Police because when I went for my run last week I actually stopped to do some stretching and I also walked some of the way.

We already know that the legislation is poorly worded and doesn't convey the government's full intentions. They've had to issue advice not to drive to national parks because they forgot to mandate it in the legislation. Not the most important thing right now, but if the Police do punish people for driving to the countryside then I would think that they'd be acting unlawfully. If they did this normally we'd be up in arms. Paul, I think the police have been put in an unenviable position by the government. A hastily put together piece of legislation which passes through all stages of the two houses in, what was it, a day? It's bound to be shit! So the government then issues advice (it can't amend the legislation because Parliament is no longer sitting) to clarify what it meant - but that isn't law. What is the police supposed to do in such a circumstance?


Edit: it seems like the tone on UKB has now changed from a day or two ago, so let me put it to you again. Can I walk to my local shithole, which nobody ever bothers with, less than a mile from my house, and do some non-highball bouldering?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 12:21:55 pm
I drive to the supermarket. I can’t carry a week or ten days worth of shopping on my own... (click and collect)

And it makes far more sense (to me) in reducing exposure risk to make one driven trip than 4-5 trips a week that going to smaller shops might entail.

I think it’s important to split the ‘risk’ from outside ventures into two main categories.

1. Risk of transmission: either giving or gaining.
2. Risk of involving emergency services etc.. wasting medical staff time.

To me the latter is much used as a shamer rather than being an actual risk/issue. The former is very important - and until we know enough about its transmission then it’s important to follow the guidelines.

With all these things there’s also an element of playing to the lowest common denominator too - a rule that’s simple enough but effective enough to stop knobheads gathering together in a park for a BBQ etc.. or having a house party.

Derbyshire police seem to be getting quite a lot of stick from several chief constables for both the drone film and the due in the blue lagoon stunt. The patchy response nationwide from the police doesn’t help either - some forces doing little Yet Lancs police dishing out 120 fixed pens in a day...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 12:22:21 pm
Quote
This is RSPB Dove Stone, after the lockdown, and after they'd closed the carpar

Umm, again I don't agree. Do you know Uppermill etc at all? The majority of those people will be local and it looks busy because they've closed the bloody car park! And again, it's less busy than the likes of Endcliffe park, on which similar pressure would be eased.

Very easy to issue sensible guidelines of ten minutes drive or similar.

Quote
Can I walk to my local shithole, which nobody ever bothers with, less than a mile from my house, and do some non-highball bouldering?

Entirely up to you. Nothing against it in the legislation. I did that on Sunday (well one pull-up, in gloves and trainers).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Liamhutch89 on March 31, 2020, 12:25:29 pm
Can I walk to my local shithole, which nobody ever bothers with, less than a mile from my house, and do some non-highball bouldering?

If this was a possibility for me I'd be doing it and keeping it quiet. Those of us lucky enough to have a board (I definitely stretched the rules to acquire all the materials and get this built last week) are already risking injury to a small degree. Same for people going running. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 31, 2020, 12:26:29 pm
  Those people can feel free to report me to the Police because when I went for my run last week I actually stopped to do some stretching and I also walked some of the way.

Waiting for a crime number as I type... It’s like tins of baked beans Will, you can have 2, but I am afraid you’ll have to put the 3rd one back.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on March 31, 2020, 12:31:42 pm
Re the whole sitting in the park thing, I think that's pretty harsh IF you're on your own or with your household. There's a lot of people in cities with no outside space at all and that makes a huge difference. The restrictions ask a LOT more of those in flats than those with gardens. And we don't typically have balconies like the Mediterranean countries.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: duncan on March 31, 2020, 12:32:32 pm
I thought this was a good summary of the known knowns and known unknowns (https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/news/cambridge-virologist-explains-what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-covid-19-9104220/) from virologist Janet Greatorex. 

Relevant to the immediate discussion she talks about the effects of different mitigation strategies in their pandemic model.

Julia Gog is a mathematician in Cambridge who did a lot of studies post-swine flu and then recently did one called Pandemic, which looked at people’s daily movements and the effects on the spread of the virus. They mathematically modelled all the data post-swine flu and looked at all the mitigations you could put in place, like closing schools and stopping sports events and making people work from home.

All of them had relatively small effects. The one thing that seemed to have a massive effect was stopping travel and saying to people you must stay home. But that is the hardest one to bring in and it has massive other consequences. We have done so much work on this since swine flu. They are not the same but you can draw a lot of similarities looking at the best approach..

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 12:33:48 pm

Umm, again I don't agree. Do you know Uppermill etc at all? The majority of those people will be local and it looks busy because they've closed the bloody car park! And again, it's less busy than the likes of Endcliffe park, on which similar pressure would be eased.

Very easy so issue sensible guidelines of ten minutes drive or similar.


I may not know the area, but that looks pretty busy to me. Approx 30 cars in that photo, which is approx 3/4 of the car park capacity I reckon?

I agree its very easy to issue the guidelines; not to easy to ensure people actually follow them! You think people on the east side of Sheffield wouldn't drive to the Peak with that guideline in place?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 12:39:06 pm
You think people on the east side of Sheffield wouldn't drive to the Peak with that guideline in place?

Absolutely. If I didn't have that sort of faith in humanity I wouldn't be able to do my job. Likewise much of the access work for the BMC is predicated on being able to get that sort of message out and working.

I guess Pete is right, this comes down to how much you think people need policing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 12:41:18 pm
If its dovestones JB is talking about its c.200 car park capacity.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 31, 2020, 12:43:34 pm
Quote
This is RSPB Dove Stone, after the lockdown, and after they'd closed the carpar

Umm, again I don't agree. Do you know Uppermill etc at all? The majority of those people will be local and it looks busy because they've closed the bloody car park!

Well neither of us actually know if they're local so maybe neither of us should be so confident making assertions. My point is not that this particular photo is an illustration of an issue. Obviously neither is it a major problem if you drive out for an evening boulder and you are the only one doing it.

My point is, and has always been, that trying to suggest that no-one drives out to the countryside is the only way to stop everyone from doing so. I know you think otherwise, but (with respect), you are definitely putting too much faith in people. Two weekends ago, the government advice was not to go out if you didn't absolutely have to. And yet the national parks were rammed with people having a jolly in the Sun. Once everyone is going out then we do have a transmission problem.

I don't see how saying "only drive ten minutes" is going to help. Already, most advice (but not the wording of the regs) is not to drive out at all, but you've still got plenty of people thinking "bugger it. I don't see the harm". Thankfully at the moment, most people aren't actually doing it, but plenty are tempted and looking for an excuse/reason.

Anyway, keeping going over this ground isn't doing my mental health any good, so I'm going to try and avoid the temptation to get drawn back in on this topic. Sorry; hopefully things will be a lot clearer in a fortnight and we'll know better what measures are really necessary or not.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 31, 2020, 12:44:18 pm
Gav - can I ask where its come from thats its fine to go surfing? A quick look on Devon and Cornwall police website and in the coranavirus q and a there is the question can I go surfing. It says no, please dont go surfing per the advice of surfing England.

Surf England Instagram page. 1st item.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 31, 2020, 12:45:02 pm
Leaving aside the interesting philosophical argument underlying how we interpret lockdown guidelines, I'd like to point out that one man's highballing with no pads, risky surfing or downhill mtn biking, is another man's lawn-mowing..

....





Simon
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 31, 2020, 12:46:10 pm
If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 12:48:42 pm
Fair dos. I think most people are fundamentally decent, but given an inch will take a mile. Hence why I think the vast majority will adhere to the current guidance of don't drive, but if you allow it even a bit...its the thin end of the wedge!  :lol:

Think the point about access work is comparing apples with pears; much more likely that a tiny subsection of the population will behave sensitively/responsibly than the entire population.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 31, 2020, 12:51:34 pm
I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

What would be different in your life about now vs a tighter lockdown? I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 12:56:28 pm
Everyone posting on here should probably required to post a google pin so we can check out the size of their house and garden, proximity to green space etc. And declare any additional factors like kids, garage boards etc!

Quote
My point is, and has always been, that trying to suggest that no-one drives out to the countryside is the only way to stop everyone from doing so. I know you think otherwise, but (with respect), you are definitely putting too much faith in people. Two weekends ago, the government advice was not to go out if you didn't absolutely have to. And yet the national parks were rammed with people having a jolly in the Sun.

I don't want to keep repeating myself either. It was early on, the message was vague and had not been transmitted effectively, and it coincided what is often the busiest weekend of the year. I'm afraid I will keep putting faith in people. If people like me didn't argue for it you'd have lost climbing access to Cheedale years ago.

Quote
I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

Increasing correlation appearing here between indoor aerocap enthusiasts endorsing tighter controls. It's a pretty big deal! Already had a meltdown this am from JB Junior not wanting to go to the park AGAIN!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 31, 2020, 12:56:59 pm
So if the police are looking to national sporting bodies for guidance on niche sports, have the BMC shafted us a bit by issuing a decree that no climbing should take place whatsoever? The BMC includes indoor climbing within the umbrella of climbing activities, so does that mean my board is out (OK, I'm being a bit facetious there)?

If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

The sarcastic tone tells me that your post is really just trying to shame and proves my point about this being more an exercise in self-punishment. Why not actually look at what the government's guidance/legislation is? You can go out to exercise if you are staying local and not driving! This is not taking the piss, it is complying with the rules.




Adam, I do think that if you lived a few minutes drive further, or even ( :o ) on the east of Sheffield, you would still be arguing that you were local. Jim has a point. I consider myself a "local" in Yorkshire, but it still takes me 40 mins to drive to Brimham. Personally I think that "local" in this context is trying to get people to stop using their cars.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: jwi on March 31, 2020, 01:00:02 pm
I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

What would be different in your life about now vs a tighter lockdown? I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say

In short, people should not self-isolate with their families, but rather at isolation centers. People with covid-19 almost surely give the virus to their family-memebers who are often asymptomatic and happily goes to the supermarket and infect tons of others.

Lots of people with symptoms also finds it very inconvenient to stay at home, so they do not. They walk the dog, go shopping etc daily.

A stricter lock-down means to isolate everyone with symptoms.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 31, 2020, 01:05:50 pm

As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say


One side of me thinks: 'they would do wouldn't they - they're from China, a dictatorship from the pages of an Orwell novel'

Other sides of me think they're probably correct.
But then the Spectator columnist side of me ( :sick:) wonders what value liberty versus altruism.

I think it's valuable to consider all sides of the argument.

JB I definitely think you have too much faith in humanity. But also that this is a good trait in 99% of life.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 31, 2020, 01:07:26 pm
The one thing we need above all else jwi, is something we don’t have: extensive testing capacity.

I don’t get it, tbh. We (uk gov) have known of the pandemic potential since late January. WHO propose test, quarantine, contact trace, test -and repeat. S Korea and similar countries have had good results this way. It is clearly the best way to allow economic activity to continue. Yet we are scrambling for adequate testing capacity and 9 weeks later, still don’t have it.  :no:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 31, 2020, 01:08:16 pm
Everyone posting on here should probably required to post a google pin so we can check out the size of their house and garden, proximity to green space etc. And declare any additional factors like kids, garage boards etc!


Inner city Leicester, terrace, no board, small yard. I plead guilty to not having children and totally get that entertaining them is the devils work; as such I sympathise with those attempting it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 01:09:14 pm
Adam, I do think that if you lived a few minutes drive further,

A few minutes more is not forty. Yes, I think people living in flats around the city centre should be encouraged to get fresh air if they can. No I don't think people should be driving over from the other side of town, go to RVCP or somewhere local.

As it is I'm not driving except to the supermarket once a week, but I think it's a facile approach that's being dictated by the disapproval of you lot. I do intend to walk out to Stanage soon, though not to climb. If the sun comes back out I might cycle out.

Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: JohnM on March 31, 2020, 01:10:42 pm
I think one of the issues is that a lot of (mainly) younger people have mild symptoms so they go to the supermarket to get food for themselves/their family. I have a friend in London who complained about a cough/fever for a couple of days and then in a group Facetime mentioned that he had gone to Sainsbury's because they had run out of Hummus. He got rightly flamed by everybody, but still couldn't see that what he did was stupid and that even though he was well enough to go to the supermarket, someone more vulnerable may have caught it off him. I imagine there are a lot of people like that though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 01:11:24 pm
If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss
The sarcastic tone tells me that your post is really just trying to shame and proves my point about this being more an exercise in self-punishment. Why not actually look at what the government's guidance/legislation is? You can go out to exercise if you are staying local and not driving! This is not taking the piss, it is complying with the rules.

Easy Will - that seems a fair enough thing to say to me...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 31, 2020, 01:12:16 pm
As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say

In short, people should not self-isolate with their families, but rather at isolation centers. People with covid-19 almost surely give the virus to their family-members who are often asymptomatic and happily goes to the supermarket and infect tons of others.

Lots of people with symptoms also finds it very inconvenient to stay at home, so they do not. They walk the dog, go shopping etc daily.

A stricter lock-down means to isolate everyone with symptoms.

I did read the article earlier and thought it an interesting point. So should everyone with symptoms have to go to a designated hotel and live together? For how long? An what if you are asymptomatic, but give it to your kids who then show symptoms? Is it a guess as to which parent transferred it? I see the argument, but I think it would be very hard to implement .
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on March 31, 2020, 01:16:40 pm
Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.
This really is the key as far as I can tell, people saying we can't do what China has, what about S Korea? Similar pop to large European nations, half the area, democratic and still have very successfully contained the outbreak. The lack of test and trace early is a scandal that must not be allowed to be brushed under the carpet.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 01:19:11 pm
Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.
This really is the key as far as I can tell, people saying we can't do what China has, what about S Korea? Similar pop to large European nations, half the area, democratic and still have very successfully contained the outbreak. The lack of test and trace early is a scandal that must not be allowed to be brushed under the carpet.
And Germany....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on March 31, 2020, 01:20:38 pm

Quote
I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

Increasing correlation appearing here between indoor aerocap enthusiasts endorsing tighter controls. It's a pretty big deal! Already had a meltdown this am from JB Junior not wanting to go to the park AGAIN!

I can't really aerocap at the moment because we don't have a board, and don't have space for a board big enough to aerocap on. Neither was I endorsing stricter controls, just surprised by the strength of the wording that kac "dreads" a stricter lockdown. It's a big deal for you, but not for me. Other things will be a big deal for others/me, but not for you.

Personally, I think others are right about people pushing it, and the influence of what is considered normal/acceptable. If 10 min to get to the peak is legit then that will, IMO, soon become 15 or 20 min. If the peak looks busy with walkers every day then I will be likely to break and go climbing sooner than if it's not. If I'm going climbing then that will make others think it's ok to go climbing. If everyone's climbing locally I'll be tempted to fit in the odd trip to spots further afield... And whilst I'm an easily influenced tw*t, I'd wager I'm a lot less of a tw*t than a lot of the GB population.

Dislosures: large house, small garden (enough to skip in just about, so long as the plants are kept trimmed), no kids.

Quote
Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.

Chinese-style lockdown didn't use those measures instead of our lockdown, they used them on top of a lockdown that was stricter than ours (e.g. no going out except one household member to shop once every 3 days IIRC)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 31, 2020, 01:25:17 pm
For disclosure JB I dont understand what aerocap is, don't have a homeboard, do have a fairly nice garden and do have have a toddler obsessed with going to the park. I get the meltdowns if he can't go. I also have a dad with cancer who is on the extremely vulnerable list.

Gav that surf page is intersting and its clear lots of sports are having a similar debate. On the same page is says "the message is clear dont go surfing'. They are also clear that the message is stay safe, stay homes and save lives.  im sure its an evolving situation so we shall see where it goes. To be clear I dont want tigher restrictions and do want to climb asap
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 31, 2020, 01:31:09 pm
Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.

The problem with this statement is that you have no data. I suspect there is some truth in what you're saying, and I did allude to it a few posts back, but we here cannot say that the net detriment to the nation's health from a lockdown will definitely outweigh the benefit in stopping the spread of CV-19. I suspect that somebody in government has done some work on this - hence the allowance to get out and exercise once a day (not twice a day, not once every 2 days, not once a week).


If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss
The sarcastic tone tells me that your post is really just trying to shame and proves my point about this being more an exercise in self-punishment. Why not actually look at what the government's guidance/legislation is? You can go out to exercise if you are staying local and not driving! This is not taking the piss, it is complying with the rules.

Easy Will - that seems a fair enough thing to say to me...

My specific objections are as follows:
"If you feel that it is nesessary" - the government guidance does not require exercise to be necessary (how much exercise is really "necessary".
"There will always be special cases" - The implication is that I believe myself to be a special case. This is insulting and not the case. Anybody could follow the same rules. i.e. walk somewhere local, climb rock that gets virtually no traffic, wash your hands before and after (Fiend mentioned a flask of warm soapy water; repeat when you get home), keep it low or make up some ridiculous eliminate traverses.
"please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others" - I'm not planning on spraying about anything. And given that we've had some 20-odd pages of discussion about what is and isn't OK, I don't think that me reporting I'd been somewhere local and within the guidance would then prompt everyone to leap into their cars and drive for hours to go climbing.
"I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss" - foreblaming any tighter lockdown on people who are obeying the government guidance. We probably will have a tighter lockdown and it'll probably be because a) people like JohnM's mate were foolish and irresponsible, and b) the government's guidelines didn't put strong enough controls on workplaces. But let's not let that get in the way of shaming people who want to go out and exercise, eh? There's also the accusation that I'm taking the piss, which is clearly not the case.



As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say

In short, people should not self-isolate with their families, but rather at isolation centers. People with covid-19 almost surely give the virus to their family-members who are often asymptomatic and happily goes to the supermarket and infect tons of others.

Lots of people with symptoms also finds it very inconvenient to stay at home, so they do not. They walk the dog, go shopping etc daily.

A stricter lock-down means to isolate everyone with symptoms.

I did read the article earlier and thought it an interesting point. So should everyone with symptoms have to go to a designated hotel and live together? For how long? An what if you are asymptomatic, but give it to your kids who then show symptoms? Is it a guess as to which parent transferred it? I see the argument, but I think it would be very hard to implement .

Chris, these questions are covered in the guidance. As soon as someone in your home shows symptoms they isolate for 7 days, everyone else isolates for 14 days. More info is available.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on March 31, 2020, 01:32:27 pm
I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

What would be different in your life about now vs a tighter lockdown? I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

The thing I would worry about most is the impact on law and policing and individually on the most vulnerable who are frightened.  If nearly all people follow the rules, it won't be needed.

Climbers and hillwalkers should think about how their outdoor interests might be viewed by the public and police. Unlike Will I think the BMC have acted almost perfectly on this... any pushing back in the lockdown could have been damaging public and political opinion, that we might well need when this is all over. People should read Elfyn's plea again last Sunday evening, and the wide scope on which it was based. The BMC is still running but from individual homes of staff and volunteers. If you care about things like the future of access, given the inevitable financial pressures on the organisation, there has never been a better time for non-members to join.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 01:35:42 pm
Agree with that Will, although the regs do NOT state once a day, except l in Wales. No restrictions on how often and for as long. Ministers have said 'once' often, and also for as long as you do normally.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 31, 2020, 01:46:33 pm
Gav that surf page is intersting and its clear lots of sports are having a similar debate. On the same page is says "the message is clear dont go surfing'. They are also clear that the message is stay safe, stay homes and save lives.  im sure its an evolving situation so we shall see where it goes. To be clear I dont want tigher restrictions and do want to climb asap

Read it as updated info on a certain date that now conflicts with earlier info on an older date. Not that I agree with it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 31, 2020, 01:56:48 pm
The guidance says you can leave the house for one form of exercise a day. Gove on the Marr show on Sunday suggested people use common sense - he suggested a run for 30 min or a cycle ride of up to an hour
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 02:09:45 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STIvNjWobzA
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on March 31, 2020, 02:24:34 pm
The thing I would worry about most is the impact on law and policing and individually on the most vulnerable who are frightened.  If nearly all people follow the rules, it won't be needed.

Climbers and hillwalkers should think about how their outdoor interests might be viewed by the public and police. Unlike Will I think the BMC have acted almost perfectly on this... any pushing back in the lockdown could have been damaging public and political opinion, that we might well need when this is all over. People should read Elfyn's plea again last Sunday evening, and the wide scope on which it was based. The BMC is still running but from individual homes of staff and volunteers. If you care about things like the future of access, given the inevitable financial pressures on the organisation, there has never been a better time for non-members to join.

  ::) I'll rarely pass up an opportunity to scoff at BMC-worship by fan boys so thanks for this one:

It wasn't rocket science. Unless you were a complete idiot or had been living on Mars, then anyone with eyes and a brain could see that a message to climbers & hillwalkers, by the organisation that represents climbers & hillwalkers, saying 'please refrain from climbing or hillwalking for now until further notice' was required. Probably at around about the time that everyone else was putting out similar messages. They were actually a day or two behind some and ahead of others.

This is not the stuff of great leadership, just the BMC doing its job. It's not a reasonable argument either for or against the BMC. (but I'm glad they exist)

Obvious also, was to add in some bumf about the importance of being seen by others (inc. politicians) as a responsible group of people because it has potential to impact future access (as does every time we go into the outdoors on other people's land).
The most basic of local climber's access groups, organised around a bunch of enthusiasts on whatsapp, could have come up with the same thought process and message.


Much harder for a national government to get the messaging correct, when its intended for the whole population with different circumstances and needs, while attempting to balance a country's economy and potential death toll, while second-guessing myriad unintended consequences and also how it might play out politically in the short-to-long term.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mr chaz on March 31, 2020, 02:49:22 pm
15 minutes drive from my house to... no, no, 10 minutes.. no, 5 minutes drive from my house to... depends what you're driving   :worms:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 31, 2020, 02:53:22 pm
New advice for shark on the oak. Drive faster.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nik at work on March 31, 2020, 02:56:06 pm
I’m struggling to get too excited about testing. Current testing kits seem to be running at 70 - 30(!!!)% accuracy last time I looked into it....

I think rather than getting in a froth about whether someone can drive a short distance to a quiet spot for a walk or not I’d be plugging the very obvious gapping hole that is even if you are symptomatic and self isolating you are still allowed out for one session of exercise a day...

“If you are self-isolating, you must:

not leave your home for any reason, other than to exercise once a day – but stay at least 2 metres (3 steps) away from other people”

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/self-isolation-advice/

I feel for families stuck in small city centre flats being told they can’t get out anywhere other than local parks. I side with JB I think, I perhaps don’t have quite the same faith he does in human nature in this instance though... I suspect there could be chaos, but maybe with clear implementation, better guidance and some well thought out softly softly policing it could be workable...?

Full disclosure, I live in a good sized house with a big garden that backs onto easy access woodland that I can walk through for 10 minutes then cross a road to get to Millstone and the Burbage valley beyond...

And I reckon Gav should be allowed to surf if he is confident he can do it safely. As Bonjoy pointed out there’s not much opportunity for transmission in the sea...

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on March 31, 2020, 03:23:59 pm
New advice for shark on the oak. Drive faster.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 31, 2020, 03:39:49 pm
very funny tomtom - i'm certainly not looking for an argument though, which is partly why I normally lurk on here rather than post. JB is right that the new law does not limit the exercise to once a day although the guidance clearly does. Its pretty clear there is some vagueness in both the law and the guidance and how it applies to lots of activities. If you are lucky enough to get out hopefully you can keep fairly quiet about it and not hurt yourself. And sorry for upsetting Will although just to clarify I was saying it was the people you encourage who may take the piss - what you described doing doesn't really sound unreasonable to me
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 31, 2020, 03:48:30 pm
The guidance says you can leave the house for one form of exercise a day. Gove on the Marr show on Sunday suggested people use common sense - he suggested a run for 30 min or a cycle ride of up to an hour

I could cycle from my house for 10 mins to a bouldering spot, climb for 40 mins and cycle home. The cycling is without doubt the most dangerous bit, by a long shot.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nik at work on March 31, 2020, 03:58:31 pm
If the roads are anything like round here then road cycling is about as safe as it’s ever going to get...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 31, 2020, 03:58:52 pm
Unlike Will I think the BMC have acted almost perfectly on this... any pushing back in the lockdown could have been damaging public and political opinion, that we might well need when this is all over.

FFS, Steve. You are so predictable! We can always count on you to turn anything into an attack on the government or a defence of the BMC.

I'm not having a go at the BMC. I think their guidance, in the context of a national representative body and the time it was given, was fine. However I presume that the BMC did not know at the time that its statement might be looked to by the police and used as the basis for issuing climbers with FPNs for carrying out some hush-hush low-risk climbing. I don't think we're going to see this tested any time soon, but on the basis of what's happened with surfing where the police have referenced the national body's guidance, might the BMC consider softening the language just a little to make room for some common sense? Certainly opinion on this thread seems to have swung again to accept that there may be at least some kinds of climbing that can be reasonably carried out.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on March 31, 2020, 03:59:54 pm
Never mind driving faster, The Oak will have an Oak growing out from the undercut by the time that Shark next gets on it...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on March 31, 2020, 04:04:01 pm
Sounds great. I could do the same with bell hagg. Don't forget to wash your hands after.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on March 31, 2020, 04:04:51 pm
I will drop out of the conversation on this as i realise i am being deliberately contentious. I dont intend to go climbing but probably would go for a surf if it got reasonably good.

I do think climbers and the BMC jumped the gun though and we could be still getting climbing if it didnt involve car journeys but also dont think people should be driving out to the peak for a walk from sheffield as once one does it whats to stop the other half a million. However i am very lucky with where i live and appreciate its a lot harder if you live in the city.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 31, 2020, 04:08:48 pm
So Mrs T_B has just driven 20 mins out to the Peak to a food wholesaler, so that she can reduce the number of journeys to local supermarkets.

Should she have gone for a stroll along Curbar on her way back, or joined the masses of dog walkers in Eccy woods (adjacent to where we live) who’ve driven (understandably) from the city to walk their dogs?!

Tricky.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on March 31, 2020, 04:57:03 pm
I dont intend to go climbing but probably would go for a surf if it got reasonably good.

Cue commencement of flat calm on East Coast for the next 6 months.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 36chambers on March 31, 2020, 05:15:21 pm
Should she have gone for a stroll along Curbar on her way back

This is kinda how it unfolds in my opinion. People who live walking distance from a crag start climbing, then people who drive past crags think "well it's no extra driving if I just stop for a quick potter", then people think "maybe a do a cheeky detour so I can swing by the crag for a potter, it doesn't add much", then people forget to go to the shops altogether and somehow end up at the crag. Then everyone and their dog are back out as normal.

I imagine the same scenario could apply to something like mountain biking, golf, and loads of other activities. And this is ultimately why I think Will Hunt shouldn't be allowed to climb on his local choss.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 31, 2020, 05:56:06 pm
Those people can feel free to report me to the Police because when I went for my run last week I actually stopped to do some stretching and I also walked some of the way.

I assume everyone who thinks it isn't acceptable to drive to exercise is also not driving to the supermarket and making do with what they can get from walking to their local shop?

Yesterday my partner and I walked to and from the supermarket for our weekly shop (2 mile round trip), and then took the dog for a walk in the evening!  ;) :guilty:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: andy popp on March 31, 2020, 06:06:49 pm
I'm starting to feel really glad there are no crags and I don't have a car. This would be making my brain hurt.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 06:11:16 pm
I'm starting to feel really glad there are no crags and I don't have a car. This would be making my brain hurt.

Yeah. Despite being 15-20 min drive from rock I’ve basically cut the idea from my mind. Ain’t gonna happen for months. Climbing kit is now in the cellar. Mats all put away etc... the best way for me to mentally partition it. Though tbh it’s a disappointment but there are bigger things to be concerned about at the moment!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 31, 2020, 06:50:39 pm
I'm starting to feel really glad there are no crags and I don't have a car. This would be making my brain hurt.

Yeah. Despite being 15-20 min drive from rock I’ve basically cut the idea from my mind. Ain’t gonna happen for months. Climbing kit is now in the cellar. Mats all put away etc... the best way for me to mentally partition it. Though tbh it’s a disappointment but there are bigger things to be concerned about at the moment!

I’m not even making the short drive to go and train at my own wall.
Though I have brought the rowing machine home. We have a fingerboard, we have a big garden and some  kit and live on a steep hill. We can keep in shape.
If restrictions ease, I might take the kids to the wall, but not now.
For reference, it’s 15-20 mins walk to Anstey’s from my house.

The garden was completely overgrown, and I mean  with trees and brambles as thick as my wrists. We (mainly me) cleared the entire space, since Monday last week. I actually ache too much to even contemplate any other exercise at the moment. I have lost almost a kilo in that time too.

PS,
I fucking hate Blackthorn trees.
Not as much as I hate Blackthorn trees with Bramble twined through, though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: seankenny on March 31, 2020, 06:56:12 pm

Obvious also, was to add in some bumf about the importance of being seen by others (inc. politicians) as a responsible group of people because it has potential to impact future access (as does every time we go into the outdoors on other people's land).
The most basic of local climber's access groups, organised around a bunch of enthusiasts on whatsapp, could have come up with the same thought process and message.


I would have agreed with this, before this thread existed.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Yossarian on March 31, 2020, 07:06:41 pm
For reference, it’s 15-20 mins walk to Anstey’s from my house.


My brain has just melted trying to comprehend exactly how insanely amazing that must be...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wood FT on March 31, 2020, 07:25:22 pm
For reference, it’s 15-20 mins walk to Anstey’s from my house.


My brain has just melted trying to comprehend exactly how insanely amazing that must be...

But it does mean he lives in Torquay...  ;D
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 07:31:20 pm
Off topic.

OMM - roundup works a treat on Blackthorn. Doesn’t touch many weed/shrubs/trees (eg gorse) but nails Blackthorn with a normal dose.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 07:47:43 pm
So just off a family Facetime with brother in laws family in Hackney. He’s suggesting their kids could meet other kids who’s parents have not had it either etc etc.. and that neither families will go near any old relatives.

I tried to point out the fallacies in his ideas - and that even just a few people bending the distancing rules made it much less worthwhile as a whole. I think he was just exploring ideas rather than it being a concrete plan.

But it’s stuff like this which is why we have or maybe need greater legislation. Or why we have to be careful exercising our ability to go outside once a day... people everywhere will be after an angle - and it’s down to all of us to behave as we are supposed to or the rot sets in... as stated earlier a couple of times in the thread.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 31, 2020, 07:48:47 pm
Off topic.

OMM - roundup works a treat on Blackthorn. Doesn’t touch many weed/shrubs/trees (eg gorse) but nails Blackthorn with a normal dose.

Now you tell me...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 07:59:19 pm
So Mrs T_B has just driven 20 mins out to the Peak to a food wholesaler, so that she can reduce the number of journeys to local supermarkets.

Should she have gone for a stroll along Curbar on her way back

Wow, this just goes to show what completely different pages people are on. I wouldn't dream of driving 20 mins from Sheffield to shop in a different community. The risk of transmission from a walk at Curbar seems irrelevant in comparison.

I'm normally a BMC cheerleader but I feel badly let down on this occasion. The message 'the hills are closed' seems to be completely the wrong one. It should be get outside, stay healthy, but whatever you do stay local and maintain distancing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 08:00:54 pm
OMM - roundup works a treat on Blackthorn. Doesn’t touch many weed/shrubs/trees (eg gorse) but nails Blackthorn with a normal dose.

I thought Roundup had been banned due to being carcinogenic?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 31, 2020, 08:18:30 pm
Glyphosphate is to be banned in the next few years in various countries. still on sale for a year or two. It does this:https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/10/monsanto-trial-cancer-dewayne-johnson-ruling (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/10/monsanto-trial-cancer-dewayne-johnson-ruling)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on March 31, 2020, 08:33:13 pm
Yup. It does nasty stuff. Nearly added that caveat to my post. But it works on blackthorn. Alright if you wear some gloves and don’t go near it for a good while?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on March 31, 2020, 08:44:24 pm
So Mrs T_B has just driven 20 mins out to the Peak to a food wholesaler, so that she can reduce the number of journeys to local supermarkets.

Should she have gone for a stroll along Curbar on her way back

Wow, this just goes to show what completely different pages people are on. I wouldn't dream of driving 20 mins from Sheffield to shop in a different community.

Click and collect from an industrial estate. They stick the goods in your boot.

Do you mean the risk from the car breaking down?

I don’t understand how that’s a greater risk than the alternative, which is physically going into Tesco on Abbeydale Road more frequently? Abbeydale road Tesco hardly being a ‘local’ shop I.e. people travel from all over SW Sheffield (and the Peak!) to shop there.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on March 31, 2020, 09:19:20 pm
New advice for shark on the oak. Drive faster.

Want a lift?

Quote from: Stu Littlefair link=topic=http://thesphericalcow.blogspot.com/2009/06/?m=1
As we hurtled along country lanes in Simon Lee's over-powered BMW estate-car-of-death I was feeling very excited, and not a little bit nervous.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 31, 2020, 09:19:56 pm
Quote
Coick and collect...

Ah ok, I'd pictured some Makro place full of farmers! Don't listen to me anyway everyone thinks I've got it all wrong. Not breaking down, having a crash.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on April 01, 2020, 07:14:05 am
I'm normally a BMC cheerleader but I feel badly let down on this occasion. The message 'the hills are closed' seems to be completely the wrong one. It should be get outside, stay healthy, but whatever you do stay local and maintain distancing.

What else could they do? Have to spoken to Elfyn Jones (assuming you are all in contact in the "access" world)?

I don't think people think you have got it wrong as such. I would say I feel like the current population enforced lockdown isn't going to last, people already seem to be looking for loop holes (see tomtom's post) and that we, as responsible citizens, should avoid helping that by not going against the spirit* of the government guidance. My kids are going batty and we currently live in quite a big house, have a garden and a decent sized park within a half mile walk. I've no idea how a family of four in a two bed flat on the seventh floor of an city centre apartment block are coping. There's a lot of people giving up quite a lot (including those risking quite a lot) to try and make this work, I feel we an forego climbing for a bit in order to help out.

*Obviously the messaging has been all over the shop form the government with police forces/the public claiming rules that don't exist (type and frequency of exercise) but we all know the intent is to only do low risk exercise from your door.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on April 01, 2020, 07:29:59 am

I'm normally a BMC cheerleader but I feel badly let down on this occasion. The message 'the hills are closed' seems to be completely the wrong one. It should be get outside, stay healthy, but whatever you do stay local and maintain distancing.

The main message IS go outside, stay healthy, but whatever you do stay local and maintain social distancing.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-and-hill-walking-its-time-to-put-it-on-hold

On the one hand Pete is telling us, as main national advice, it's common sense and on the other some feel really let down. How exactly should the BMC nuance the national message but deal with the points on MR etc that Elfyn rightly raises? This must be worth some constructive discussion. Do people seriously think the BMC won't be front and centre if police abuse their powers when dealing with members and the wider community?

When we come out of this mess we will be facing losses of businesses related to indoor climbing and outdoor activities (ie for activities under the BMC remit). The BMC and its clubs and Mountain Training will almost certainly take a big financial hit. Getting the national balance sheets back in order, after providing the money to keep the economy going in a crisis, might lead to more austerity... we all know how this impacted important public finance that relates to climbing and hillwalking issues (like the funding crises in our National Parks). We are also awaiting feedback on the consultation on the proposed new tresspass laws, that, if they come out badly for climbers, might make Will's current FPN concerns seem trivial in comparison.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/strengthening-police-powers-to-tackle-unauthorised-encampments



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on April 01, 2020, 08:01:45 am
... and a decent sized park within a half mile walk.  I've no idea how a family of four in a two bed flat on the seventh floor of an city centre apartment block are coping.

For city dwellers, like me,  I think most people have a park within a mile. I expected to be forced out of our nearest parks by overcrowding but the 'traffic' in our nearest park (Coppice Park not so far from the middle of St Anns) is low..... mainly dog-walkers and 'bench sitters' ... but occasionally we see no-one when going several times around our various loops (the longest being about half a km). Goodness knows what the majority of people are doing in all those inner city flats.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark20 on April 01, 2020, 09:59:26 am
“Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise“
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/uk-police-reissued-with-guidance-on-enforcing-coronavirus-lockdown
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 01, 2020, 10:22:37 am
“Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise“
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/uk-police-reissued-with-guidance-on-enforcing-coronavirus-lockdown

This does not mean go climbing or hillwalking. Everyone should just exercise as close to where they live as possible. Let's just all do that and get this grimness over with as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 01, 2020, 10:27:53 am
Unless you live near a hill or moorland, in which case it's fine, and it's fine to drive a short distance. My main issue is that 'hillwalking' is far too broad. I don't believe in simple rules for simple people, if you treat people like idiots they will behave like idiots.

Peak National Park are now having problems with unauthorised footpath 'closures': https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/peak-district-national-park-thanks-thousands-for-staying-away-but-urges-rights-of-way-remain-open-for-local-communities

Given their initial message that 'the National Park is closed' I'm not sure what they expected.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 01, 2020, 10:29:43 am
“Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise“
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/uk-police-reissued-with-guidance-on-enforcing-coronavirus-lockdown


Have had a look but can't find the actual guidance anywhere. Anyone found it?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: BrutusTheBear on April 01, 2020, 10:30:36 am
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 01, 2020, 10:32:22 am
Yes, and then the single weekly drive to the supermarket for most will unlikely be be enough to get it up to temperature. Bad combo.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 01, 2020, 10:45:11 am
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?

No more so than when it rains endlessly for a month or I go on holiday for 3 weeks  :shrug:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark20 on April 01, 2020, 10:47:08 am
Will I’ve not seen the official guidance from police chiefs either. Though the government website is actually quite interesting - https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus
Interestingly there is nothing specifically stating “don’t go to work , unless you’re a key worker” as is often said. As far as I can tell it is go to work, unless you can work from home, it is unsafe to do so, or someone in your household is self isolating.

Btw my previous post was not to imply that we can now all go climbing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 01, 2020, 10:49:53 am
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?

No more so than when it rains endlessly for a month or I go on holiday for 3 weeks  :shrug:

None of you work off shore/at sea?

Never had a serious issue.
Move it a little so it’s not sat on the same spot of the tyres, once a week.

All I’ve ever done.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 01, 2020, 10:56:21 am
The guidance is on the gov.uk website. I don't  know how to link things but have pasted some it it below. The issue is that the emergency law is worded differently and this is what the guardian article was getting at. I don't know what the precise wording is but Adam is almost certainly right that you can drive out climbing without breaking the law. But you wont be following the guidance on what we should be doing. Personally I think we should follow the guidance as well as the law so much as want to I won't be going out climbing.


1. When am I allowed to leave the house?
You should only leave the house for very limited purposes:

shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible
one form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household
any medical need, including to donate blood, avoid or escape risk of injury or harm, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person
travelling for work purposes, but only where you cannot work from home
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 01, 2020, 10:59:27 am
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?

This wont be an issue at all. I have a car that doesnt go out all winter and its fine, also my van can not do more than a few miles for weeks on end.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 01, 2020, 11:01:05 am
Just make sure the batter doesn't go flat, i need to run the van every 3 weeks or so for a charge.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 01, 2020, 11:05:37 am
Mark, kac, that is the government guidance that hasn't changed since the beginning of the shutdown (or at least from very soon after the shutdown. I think Johnson's address talked about not going to work unless you were critical, which was almost immediately [he misspoke?] relaxed). What I'm after is the police's updated guidance on how to enforce the government's legislation and guidance.

kac, you say you're not going climbing, that might be because your particular climbing desires and circumstances don't fit with the govt guidance, which is fair enough. The point that has been made a few times is that some limited climbing in certain circumstances is allowed under the guidance/law. I'm not suggesting we should flout either.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 01, 2020, 11:27:19 am
As I understand it the legal powers are in THE Health protection coranavirus restrictions England regulations 2020. Im sure it comes up if googled.

Will I can be at burbage in 10 min. Ive climbed obsessively for over twenty years. Not going is nothing to do with my circumstances I just think it would be wrong to do so. If you think differently have fun - im only really asking you not to encourage others which if you think about it is in your best interests as if we all start climbing I expect they will change the law pretty soon.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 01, 2020, 12:25:02 pm
Mark, kac, that is the government guidance that hasn't changed since the beginning of the shutdown (or at least from very soon after the shutdown. I think Johnson's address talked about not going to work unless you were critical, which was almost immediately [he misspoke?] relaxed). What I'm after is the police's updated guidance on how to enforce the government's legislation and guidance.

I don't know what the police's own internal guidance is but the law is in reg 6 of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020. In terms of exercise, it mandates that no-one should leave the place where they live without reasonable excuse, which includes taking exercise alone or with members of their household. The "reasonable excuse" clause means that the exercise still needs to be reasonable within the spirit of the legislation, which is overall very restrictive, and would arguably also be interpreted in light of the current government guidance. I guess only the courts would be able to provide a definitive answer if there are prosecutions.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 01, 2020, 12:57:33 pm
So Will, you seem to be basically pointing out (several times) that the government guidelines could (if within interpretation of reasonable) allow someone to go climbing. Why? (Do you keep pointing it out?)

Nearly everyone in here and the BMC etc.. is saying don’t whatsoever.

I’m not trying to wind you up - just don’t get why you keep posting this? 🤷‍♂️
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 01, 2020, 01:10:02 pm
I figure Ru probably has the definitive post of the the thread.
After all, you may end up having to justify your actions to somebody rather like him, probably less sympathetic.

Seems a pricy and long winded risk to take.

Has anybody factored that into their risk assessment?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 01, 2020, 01:42:41 pm
Yes, if anyone asks my name, I am going to say it's Will Hunt.

(edit: only joking, in case it isn't obvious)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 01, 2020, 01:46:16 pm
I'm Will Hunt (and so is my spotter).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on April 01, 2020, 02:05:45 pm
So Will, you seem to be basically pointing out (several times) that the government guidelines could (if within interpretation of reasonable) allow someone to go climbing. Why? (Do you keep pointing it out?)

Nearly everyone in here and the BMC etc.. is saying don’t whatsoever.

I’m not trying to wind you up - just don’t get why you keep posting this? 🤷‍♂️

I guess because he feels like he is being shamed/guilted/disapproved of for considering a course of action within the law, police guidelines, and government guidelines. (I'm not saying people meant to, but can see why he might feel like that) FWIW I can't see the issue with walking to obscure safe bouldering. I live within walking distance of Avon gorge, but wouldn't consider it for obvious reasons (didn't stop at least one pair a couple of days ago though)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 01, 2020, 02:22:51 pm
So Will, you seem to be basically pointing out (several times) that the government guidelines could (if within interpretation of reasonable) allow someone to go climbing. Why? (Do you keep pointing it out?)

Nearly everyone in here and the BMC etc.. is saying don’t whatsoever.

I’m not trying to wind you up - just don’t get why you keep posting this? 🤷‍♂️

I guess because he feels like he is being shamed/guilted/disapproved of for considering a course of action within the law, police guidelines, and government guidelines. (I'm not saying people meant to, but can see why he might feel like that) FWIW I can't see the issue with walking to obscure safe bouldering. I live within walking distance of Avon gorge, but wouldn't consider it for obvious reasons (didn't stop at least one pair a couple of days ago though)

See, this is what I don’t get.

Will, if you want to go and feel you can justify it within your individual context and explain such convincingly to the authorities (in the unlikely event you are “caught”) go. Same applies for most things/sports.

I mean, why ask, or even mention it, unless you were unsure of your argument?

Not surprising that people have differing views.
Though, probably, those views differ in the main, because those people are applying their own context to the situation.

If the crag was in your garden. Nobody would object.if
If the crag was across a single lane road, from your front door. Nobody would object.
If the crag was across the field in front/behind of your house. Nobody would object.

Etc etc.

If the crag is a 20/30 minute drive away (that would take me from Torquay to Exeter, or an inter city and absolutely inter community trip (actually I’d cross several “wards” in that trip)) then it’s absolutely going to piss somebody off.

Just keep it on the down-low and use some sense.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 01, 2020, 02:26:12 pm
You could frame this issue more generally:

Speeding is proven to be a contributory factor in %x of all RTAs
There are laws against speeding, but not laws against driving at too high a speed for the given conditions and circumstances, for e.g. a 50mph speed limit - even though allowed by law - may be too fast on a twisty country single-carriageway covered in leaves on a rainy dark night.
I sometimes speed.
People who know me probably realise that I sometimes speed.
Other people sometimes speed.
People they know probably realise that they sometimes speed.
Speeding is considered socially acceptable differently by different people, on an arbitrary scale that I just invented of '1' - 'completely unacceptable in all circumstances' to '10'- 'completely acceptable in all circumstances'.

For bouldering see 'speeding'.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 01, 2020, 02:34:02 pm

If the crag was in your garden. Nobody would object.if


I think you could still find people who'd object.

Also, see 'Garden, lawnmowers, risk of' (Lee et al, 2020)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 01, 2020, 03:35:20 pm

If the crag was in your garden. Nobody would object.if


I think you could still find people who'd object.

Also, see 'Garden, lawnmowers, risk of' (Lee et al, 2020)

I just pissed myself with laughter, in the queue to get into the co op, and now have no way to explain my apparent lunacy.

On the plus side, this has increased my social distancing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on April 01, 2020, 03:38:55 pm
You could frame this issue more generally:

Speeding is proven to be a contributory factor in %x of all RTAs
There are laws against speeding, but not laws against driving at too high a speed for the given conditions and circumstances, for e.g. a 50mph speed limit - even though allowed by law - may be too fast on a twisty country single-carriageway covered in leaves on a rainy dark night.
I sometimes speed.
People who know me probably realise that I sometimes speed.
Other people sometimes speed.
People they know probably realise that they sometimes speed.
Speeding is considered socially acceptable differently by different people, on an arbitrary scale that I just invented of '1' - 'completely unacceptable in all circumstances' to '10'- 'completely acceptable in all circumstances'.

For bouldering see 'speeding'.

What about speeding whilst texting ?  ;) :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on April 01, 2020, 03:39:18 pm
Only joking , he doesn’t do that.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 01, 2020, 05:34:20 pm
I wrote a big long reply to TT's question and the UKB gremlins threw it in the bin. Now I can't be bothered to rewrite it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 01, 2020, 05:41:03 pm
That happens to me often too. If you go back on the browser it’s often still there.

I wasn’t soliciting a long response though! 😱
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on April 01, 2020, 07:41:13 pm
Will's on a roll this year, I can see it's frustrating.

The antidote: learning to derive enormous satisfaction from a daily sesh involving Randall's finger board mini campussing...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: turnipturned on April 01, 2020, 08:30:19 pm
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?

Yup, drove my van to go shopping the other day to give it a run out after sitting on the drive for 10days. 5 miles in, flashing coil warning light. Probably EGR or injector gone..... only £800. Bollocks
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 01, 2020, 08:40:20 pm
OK. Will write a quick response.

Firstly, I have no intention of flouting the guidance or the law. Because it's very important. Obviously.

But also, I don't think there is a broad consensus on here that there should be a complete and absolute moratorium on all climbing. Lots of people have acknowledged that there are limited forms of climbing that could very reasonably take place. But still this shaming attitude from some (whose circumstances generally, I suspect, preclude them from doing any climbing because they are either too far from the rock or the rock that is within walking distance isn't really suitable). I think that's poor. It shouldn't be phrased as a question of what we can "get away with". When it comes to severe restrictions on civil liberties the goal should be to restrict them as little as possible while achieving the objective. Some examples off the top of my head: I can see a probably unrepeated 7B+ from my upstairs window and there's a 7A+ that's probably only been done twice within a mile of the house; turnip lives right at the foot of the approach path to Rylstone; Adi lives under Baildon Bank; what if you lived in one of those houses that backs onto Longridge?

As Ru pointed out, the law on this has not changed. Nor will it be updated since the HoP is no longer functioning. But the way that the police interpret and enforce the law has changed, and this is the way that the public is going to interface with this law in the first instance. We are all allowed to go out to undertake reasonable exercise. We've had lots of examples on this thread of how climbing could be considered reasonable exercise - neither increasing the risk of infection or of becoming a burden on the NHS.

Personally, even if the police have relaxed the rules on driving for exercise, I am not going to start driving. I live in a BD postcode, so any driving carries a high risk of being obliterated by a 17 year old driving an enormous Range Rover. I don't fully agree with JB's point about driving out to Burbage Bridge. If it's OK for him to go and inspect his fiefdom then it will immediately become OK for half a million other people - all of whom are clawing at the walls to get out into the Peak. He does have a point though that we shouldn't be so quick to surrender our hard won and hard kept freedoms without good cause. I can only imagine what the gamekeepers are doing to raptors now that there are no potential witnesses up there.


If that's all TL;DR, then the shortest answer to your question, TT, is that the legislation used the word "reasonable", which immediately triggers my natural instinct to try and pull those words to pieces and test what they really mean.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 01, 2020, 08:43:25 pm
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?

Yup, drove my van to go shopping the other day to give it a run out after sitting on the drive for 10days. 5 miles in, flashing coil warning light. Probably EGR or injector gone..... only £800. Bollocks

Maybe let it get really warm (leave it running on the drive for an hour or so)? Give it some revs and see if it clears things out?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: BrutusTheBear on April 01, 2020, 08:49:14 pm
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?

Yup, drove my van to go shopping the other day to give it a run out after sitting on the drive for 10days. 5 miles in, flashing coil warning light. Probably EGR or injector gone..... only £800. Bollocks
  That sucks.. Haven’t been anywhere in mine since the 11th March, don’t do a shop run because I am protecting my wife whom is ‘high risk’ (we get get stuff delivered).  Started first time yesterday, just, battery definitely close to being drained. I have a charger so not too worried about that but probably could do with taking it for a spin.  Maybe I can combine with some reasonable exercise, I can hit single trackers straight from home and get access to some different footpaths.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 01, 2020, 09:08:57 pm
Pop the terminals off and stick them in a plastic bag.

You can google “winterising diesel engines” too. Most yachties have to do this sort of thing  frequently .

As I said though, I’ve never done more than have someone move it in place, even when I spent 13 months on expedition/hunting drug smugglers.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ashtond6 on April 01, 2020, 11:01:02 pm

We are all allowed to go out to undertake reasonable exercise. We've had lots of examples on this thread of how climbing could be considered reasonable exercise - neither increasing the risk of infection or of becoming a burden on the NHS.

Amen.

Not suggesting people go to stanage. I have some very obscure rocks within near walking distance and it covers the almost zero risk part option.

Although I do acknowledge something was probably required to reduce traffic. It is hard to get the balance. It just grates on me that people can go for 20 mile runs, or massive rides and I cant go bouldering 5 mins from mine.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 01, 2020, 11:07:17 pm
If that's all TL;DR, then the shortest answer to your question, TT, is that the legislation used the word "reasonable", which immediately triggers my natural instinct to try and pull those words to pieces and test what they really mean.

If you want a slightly cynical answer, "reasonable," firstly means whatever the police, influenced by the media, say it means. Until you get arrested. After that it means whatever the CPS thinks it means. Then what a magistrate thinks it means. If you're still not happy, it means whatever a judge of the administrative court thinks it means. After that you've run out of money to ask anyone else. The overall point is that none of these people are likely to be liberal leaning, yet sensible, climbers, so it doesn't matter what we think it means.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 02, 2020, 07:47:14 am
Will im not sure what your hoping to achieve here but if your worried about being shamed for climbing why don't you just go climbing and keep quiet about it. I dont think the bmc or anyone is going to start surveilance on your house ready to shame you if you venture outside to one of your local boulders. Hopefully that sounds reasonable and we can all go climbing again soon.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: turnipturned on April 02, 2020, 07:47:32 am

We are all allowed to go out to undertake reasonable exercise. We've had lots of examples on this thread of how climbing could be considered reasonable exercise - neither increasing the risk of infection or of becoming a burden on the NHS.

Amen.

Not suggesting people go to stanage. I have some very obscure rocks within near walking distance and it covers the almost zero risk part option.

Although I do acknowledge something was probably required to reduce traffic. It is hard to get the balance. It just grates on me that people can go for 20 mile runs, or massive rides and I cant go bouldering 5 mins from mine.

I think the underlying issues is; while we as climbers, might consider low ball bouldering very low risk, to the wider society this is probably perceived as quite high risk/ dangerous. So walking to the boulders with a crash pad on, in my opinion, you are basically just putting two fingers up to the rest of society.

On the flip side, seeing old, unfit, overweight men dusting off their mountain bikes/ road bikes for the first time in 10 years riding like they are back in their 20’s also makes me feel very uneasy! (Don’t get me wrong, it’s bloody brilliant people are using this as an excuse to get fit and healthy)

Also, to put this all in a bit of context, I recommend going over and following pebble crusher on Instagram. Paramedic in London/Yorkshire...... he has put up some pretty telling stories!
 




Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on April 02, 2020, 08:33:11 am
Although I do acknowledge something was probably required to reduce traffic. It is hard to get the balance. It just grates on me that people can go for 20 mile runs, or massive rides and I cant go bouldering 5 mins from mine.

Long 20 mile runs and massive bike rides are not in the spirit of the guidance either. One could argue that both could be classed as "reasonable", as we are doing with bouldering, but in reality, they aren't.

The idea is not to keep doing what you were pre lockdown, it's just to allow us to do enough to keep sane, fit and healthy.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 02, 2020, 08:46:28 am
Will im not sure what your hoping to achieve here but if your worried about being shamed for climbing why don't you just go climbing and keep quiet about it. I dont think the bmc or anyone is going to start surveilance on your house ready to shame you if you venture outside to one of your local boulders. Hopefully that sounds reasonable and we can all go climbing again soon.

Well, Tom asked so I answered.

On the subject of those big runs and rides, what is it that makes it wrong? To me it's the risk of having a mechanical or accident or injury far from home and having to call on someone to come out and help you. If you're running and going through stiles and gates then you're possibly aiding transmission beyond your community.

But I suspect that some (kac/Nick/TT?) would say that additionally we should all be sacrificing as much as we possibly can?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 02, 2020, 08:55:37 am
Will im not sure what your hoping to achieve here but if your worried about being shamed for climbing why don't you just go climbing and keep quiet about it. I dont think the bmc or anyone is going to start surveilance on your house ready to shame you if you venture outside to one of your local boulders. Hopefully that sounds reasonable and we can all go climbing again soon.

Well, Tom asked so I answered.

On the subject of those big runs and rides, what is it that makes it wrong? To me it's the risk of having a mechanical or accident or injury far from home and having to call on someone to come out and help you. If you're running and going through stiles and gates then you're possibly aiding transmission beyond your community.

But I suspect that some (kac/Nick/TT?) would say that additionally we should all be sacrificing as much as we possibly can?

Are you just being contentious for the sake of it Will? Most people have pretty much said “you do what you think you can justify as reasonable”.

Plenty have given you their interpretation of “reasonable”.

Ru has given you a pretty clear and as close as possible, legal, definition of “reasonable” (Why would you question a learned opinion? It carries a fair bit more force than anybody else’s blathering).

Are you expecting people to come around to your way of thinking?
Do you need that to proceed?

If your doubts are that strong, you haven’t convinced yourself.

Doesn’t that answer your questions?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on April 02, 2020, 09:07:37 am
On the subject of those big runs and rides, what is it that makes it wrong?

What makes them wrong is that government guidance (though the messaging from them has been anything but clear I agree) currently encourages us to stay at home as much as possible and to only go out for essential tasks. Exercise is included as a reason to go out, but we are also encouraged to keep it as short as possible and to not stray far from home. 20 mile runs and long rides don't conform to this guidance in my opinion.

I believe that we need to keep within the spirit of the guidance in order for the lockdown to work. The more we nibble away at the edges, start staying in less and less, the sooner the lockdown falls apart.

My opinion is very much clouded the fact my wife has had people accusing her of leaving them at home to die as the treatments they thought would be available are not being offered anymore and friends are already making those tough decisions re patients (who are not all old, i.e. 40+) with Covid-19. They are really feeling it and my way of support them/doing my bit is going along with the government guidance.

A post from ChrisBrooke on the other channel struck a chord:
Quote
Fifthly, and probably most importantly, out of support for and solidarity with both the vulnerable people in our society who might die of CV19, however unlikely it is they'd get it from me, and our NHS workers who are literally putting their lives on the line (and some have already paid with theirs) to help and serve us. They are asking us (and some on here have done so explicitly) to stay home, follow the advice, social distance, don't go climbing or do owt daft. Ignoring their pleas is a rather unbecoming middle digit to those who are making actual sacrifices at this time, not just staying away from the crags.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 02, 2020, 09:12:26 am
Matt, why does anyone discuss or debate anything on here? I'm interested in knowing why the people who think differently to me think that way. Perhaps they've thought about it in a way that I haven't?
I'm not saying that I'm going climbing, nor asking permission from UKB, I'm just using my own circumstances as an example. I'm actually a model citizen here. Nobody in our household has been to the shops in about a fortnight and I haven't exercised beyond home since some time last week.

If you read the last few posts again you'll find that I haven't questioned anything that Ru said.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 02, 2020, 09:22:26 am
I haven't exercised beyond home since some time last week.

Your posts make it sound like you could do with a bit of fresh air 😄
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 02, 2020, 09:32:21 am
Not for me, thanks. Wouldn't touch the stuff.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 02, 2020, 09:48:17 am
Thats great will that you want to hear different opinions. You just dont seem very open minded in how you are receiving them. For example if someone offers an opinion that differs from yours you assume that is just because they can't get out. Now you seem to be saying that I have some agenda where I want to maximise the sacrifice. I really dont but as lots of others have said I just dont personally feel it would be right to go out climbing at the moment.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ashtond6 on April 02, 2020, 10:00:07 am

We are all allowed to go out to undertake reasonable exercise. We've had lots of examples on this thread of how climbing could be considered reasonable exercise - neither increasing the risk of infection or of becoming a burden on the NHS.

Amen.

Not suggesting people go to stanage. I have some very obscure rocks within near walking distance and it covers the almost zero risk part option.

Although I do acknowledge something was probably required to reduce traffic. It is hard to get the balance. It just grates on me that people can go for 20 mile runs, or massive rides and I cant go bouldering 5 mins from mine.

So walking to the boulders with a crash pad on, in my opinion, you are basically just putting two fingers up to the rest of society.


Ahhh I totally agree with that. Pre all this, when I planned to go out with a low profile, I had planned to go without pads and do outrageous lowball traverses.

Again not really different to those traversing brick edges in Sheffield city at the moment.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 02, 2020, 10:03:44 am
What kac, OMM, Galpinos, Stubbsy and Dan said...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 02, 2020, 10:09:17 am
Long 20 mile runs and massive bike rides are not in the spirit of the guidance either. One could argue that both could be classed as "reasonable", as we are doing with bouldering, but in reality, they aren't.

Agree with this, much as I would love to do either, guidelines I'm working to are; don't run any further than I can hobble home from if I sprain an ankle. Tempting though it is, I'll probably avoid bike altogether, as it's all a bit too hilly round here, and the temptation to blast it would be a bit too much. That may change though, once the madness sets in, might find a flat road or two near home and just do laps.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 02, 2020, 10:26:29 am

Again not really different to those traversing brick edges in Sheffield city at the moment.

I expect Broomgrove is probably the most dangerous place in the city right now.

I haven't read every post here but really, it seems fairly simple to me. We all know what the restrictions are in place for and want this attempt to slow the pandemic to work.  We all know it takes compliance from every member of society to succeed. We all take a dim view of idiots who undermine this, knowing that their selfishness results in somebody else's suffering or death.

If you are a halfway decent person the little compass in your head will always point the right way when you ask it which way to go

edit: when, not if.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 02, 2020, 10:36:18 am

Again not really different to those traversing brick edges in Sheffield city at the moment.

I expect Broomgrove is probably the most dangerous place in the city right now.

Are people actually doing this? Doesn't seem much different to what Will was asking about.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 02, 2020, 10:43:23 am
Sorry, no idea, semi-flippant response to ashton's comment above. my comment below it is serious though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on April 02, 2020, 10:51:51 am
Thats great will that you want to hear different opinions. You just dont seem very open minded in how you are receiving them. For example if someone offers an opinion that differs from yours you assume that is just because they can't get out.

I get this from Will quite a lot. All my FA names are shite but Will's are all Booker Prize nominees   :-\

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 02, 2020, 11:01:55 am

Again not really different to those traversing brick edges in Sheffield city at the moment.

I expect Broomgrove is probably the most dangerous place in the city right now.

Are people actually doing this? Doesn't seem much different to what Will was asking about.

We were spraying down the holds at the wall, every night, with Milton Hospital disinfectant.
But, we realised, that wasn’t going to cut it.
Even with lingering residue and assuming it was still effective, dried onto the holds; it had a 15 minute contact time for disinfection to occur.

So, since rain has been in short supply, UV takes a couple of days to be effective at this time of year and I’m fairly sure nobody’s spraying down the holds with Milton; buildering where a bunch of other climbers have been fondling your holds...?

Well, up to the individual, of course. After all, very few people below the age of 60 and without underlying health conditions have died, right?
Well quite a few more than I think we were expecting. I mean 13 years old? 19?
Still, it’s like the lottery, nobody really wins that...
I mean the odds are better (not the right term) than the lottery, but still pretty remote, obviously.
Dig out.
Fill yer boots.
Just wash your hands and try not to breathe on your loved ones when you get home.
 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nik at work on April 02, 2020, 11:22:40 am

But I suspect that some (kac/Nick/TT?) would say that additionally we should all be sacrificing as much as we possibly can?

Me?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on April 02, 2020, 11:28:34 am

But I suspect that some (kac/Nick/TT?) would say that additionally we should all be sacrificing as much as we possibly can?

Me?

No I'm Spartacus/Nick!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 02, 2020, 11:52:39 am
There can only be one! You two need to fight to the death on top of the Cioch (Burbage one will do, no visitors allowed on Skye). Long swords required to maintain social distancing. And you need to cycle there.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 02, 2020, 12:03:23 pm
Well, up to the individual, of course. After all, very few people below the age of 60 and without underlying health conditions have died, right?
Well quite a few more than I think we were expecting. I mean 13 years old? 19?
Still, it’s like the lottery, nobody really wins that...
I mean the odds are better (not the right term) than the lottery, but still pretty remote, obviously.
Dig out.
Fill yer boots.
Just wash your hands and try not to breathe on your loved ones when you get home.

We all do things which have risk - loads of driving around to go climbing, DIY, drink, drugs... Unless you can give me some stats I'm currently relatively unafraid for myself, precisely because it's news that a 13 and 19 year old with no underlying conditions got killed by it (and no, stats of how many hospitalisations are in a certain age group are not v useful unless you know infection rates by age group).

To those giving Will shit for relentlessly asking "why do you think x", I have to say I'm sympathetic to Will on the general approach. When people disagree with me I either do the same, or call them a moron. That said, we do seem to have got the the point where we've hit the bottom of the "why" barrel on most fronts.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 02, 2020, 12:21:21 pm
What barrows said.

I find it interesting to see different views on liberty/authority on this thread.

And I don't think Will is closed-minded, I'd say the opposite. Questioning isn't closed-mindedness, it's curiosity. If he was reading your replies and then going 'fuck you all, you're wrong' and posting pics of himself going climbing then I'd say he was closed-minded.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 02, 2020, 12:38:57 pm
That said, we do seem to have got the the point where we've hit the bottom of the "why" barrel on most fronts.

I agree. And as I said before, I still swing back and forth in my opinion of this. I think the most compelling arguments that have been made recently are a) that lots of individuals making small stretches to the rules leads to more and more non-compliance (though the police should be stepping in and maintaining the lockdown when things become unreasonable); and b) Dan's point about carrying a bouldering pad. Bouldering pads are not very discreet and being seen walking around with one isn't going to help with point a). I wouldn't go so far as to say it was sticking two fingers up at society though. And Dan could definitely walk from where he lives to Rylstone with a pad and not be seen by anyone!


I find it interesting to see different views on liberty/authority on this thread.

This is also why this debate is so interesting. What if we were talking about stop and search powers? Or identity cards? Or a surveillance state? Most people on here would argue that these impositions on our liberty should be used in a limited way that is proportional to the threat (knife crime/terrorism/etc). This pandemic is a much bigger threat than stabbings or terrorism (so obviously requires unprecedented measures), but if you are a home secretary or a police officer, or a victim's loved one then you might think quite differently about what civil liberties we should surrender. And (not wanting to open up the argument again), I do think that some people's point of view on the lockdown goes a little beyond a proportional response.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 02, 2020, 12:53:57 pm
Well, up to the individual, of course. After all, very few people below the age of 60 and without underlying health conditions have died, right?
Well quite a few more than I think we were expecting. I mean 13 years old? 19?
Still, it’s like the lottery, nobody really wins that...
I mean the odds are better (not the right term) than the lottery, but still pretty remote, obviously.
Dig out.
Fill yer boots.
Just wash your hands and try not to breathe on your loved ones when you get home.

We all do things which have risk - loads of driving around to go climbing, DIY, drink, drugs... Unless you can give me some stats I'm currently relatively unafraid for myself, precisely because it's news that a 13 and 19 year old with no underlying conditions got killed by it (and no, stats of how many hospitalisations are in a certain age group are not v useful unless you know infection rates by age group).

To those giving Will shit for relentlessly asking "why do you think x", I have to say I'm sympathetic to Will on the general approach. When people disagree with me I either do the same, or call them a moron. That said, we do seem to have got the the point where we've hit the bottom of the "why" barrel on most fronts.

I am “doing a Will” in that post.
Like him I often feel obliged to argue a counter point, beyond my own “actual” view.

But, on infection rates...

Surely that’s bunkum? Infection rates in different age groups, would be a meaningless lump of data?
How would you ever know what caused the discrepancy?
Maybe, say, 24-27 year olds (for some strange reason related to a popular early 2010’s pop video) don’t pick up canned goods to check ingredients, in supermarkets and that turned out to be a significant vector? But 20-24 year olds always do because of some weird viral Insta post...

I hope that was obviously random.
What I’m saying is, infection rates don’t speak to physiological responses, by age group.

To determine that, you’re going to have to set up a trial or twenty and deliberately infect a good number in each bracket etc etc and see how they responded.

😉
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on April 02, 2020, 12:56:53 pm
Will, I think you should log off ukb for 5 min, fire up your laptop and get that amazing guidebook finished for us all to use once we're finally allowed out.

(As an aside there is one 7b+ that everyone thinks is well soft touch that doesn't seem to have a downgrade on your logbook?!?!?!!!)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 02, 2020, 01:06:29 pm
Pete if you read what I said you will see that I didn't call will close minded. I have no interest in giving will shit as Alex puts it. I said the way he is receiving arguments was not open minded in that he dismisses alternative views based on his prejudice ie. Other views are to be dismissed because he suspects they cant get out climbing - he could just ask if he thinks thats the case and in some way relevant to the issue. Anyway this seems to be going round in circles now so before I get called a moron I'm gonna quit posting. Hope everyone stays healthy.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 02, 2020, 01:23:34 pm
Matt -
1. No you weren't asking why, you were just rather flamboyantly trying to state your view.
2. I don't think you understood my post. My bracketed point was simply preempting someone posting a news article stating that a high % of those in hospital are young people; my point is that without knowing how many there are of each age group in the general population and how many in each age group are infected, that data isn't worth much
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 02, 2020, 02:04:14 pm
Matt -
1. No you weren't asking why, you were just rather flamboyantly trying to state your view.
2. I don't think you understood my post. My bracketed point was simply preempting someone posting a news article stating that a high % of those in hospital are young people; my point is that without knowing how many there are of each age group in the general population and how many in each age group are infected, that data isn't worth much

I asked about the value of the data, full stop.

All of it is too contingent on unknown factors.

The only reasonably concrete data is the number of deaths and even then we don’t know how many are actually C19 caused. Plenty will be deaths that might have occurred in short order anyway.
My point, overall, is that much of our speculation is, well, not much use.

You, Alex, appear to be on the “it’s not worth it” side. That is you seem to suspect the economic damage of current measures out-weigh  the benefits. Seem to.
My point is, I don’t think that’s true. I think the economic costs AND the human costs of not doing this will be higher.
Because I don’t like the death rate, doesn’t mean I think it’s the most critical aspect.
Because, in the long run, the number sick days, critically ill, knock on deaths and illness, would probably be much worse.
As I have said several times, least worst.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 02, 2020, 02:33:32 pm
I for one am enjoying the different viewpoints on here so please do keep posting everyone. I dont think thes actually too much major disagreement, everyone is probably just grumpy being cooped up. I know i am.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 02, 2020, 02:36:16 pm
You, Alex, appear to be on the “it’s not worth it” side. That is you seem to suspect the economic damage of current measures out-weigh  the benefits. Seem to.

Without trawling through Alex's posts, I'm pretty sure that isn't what he thinks. He was just trying to oppose what you'd implied, that any economic price was worth it to save even one life. We all know that that is not how risk management works in policy making.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 02, 2020, 02:37:44 pm
I asked about the value of the data, full stop.

In the original post, which we're referring to, you didn't ask anything about data. The second post (not referred to in my point 1) includes stuff about data, in response to the bracketed part of my post, and totally missed the point.

We're getting very cross-threads here, but I don't really have a strong view on where the line should sit, I just think that the line sits somewhere and absolutist statements like "If our lockdown, flattens that curve and people who don’t need to die, don’t, then it’s worth it." make me want to  :wall:

i.e. what Will said... even if he can't use the quote function ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on April 02, 2020, 02:45:11 pm
I for one am enjoying the different viewpoints on here so please do keep posting everyone. I dont think thes actually too much major disagreement, everyone is probably just grumpy being cooped up. I know i am.

Agreed... the most sane place I visit on the internet and the humour is fabulous at times. It makes a nice change to be called a sanctimonious bellend (revenge is best served cold ;)) , when at work I often struggled to stop students calling me sir. All the place really needs is more women.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 02, 2020, 02:51:50 pm

Agreed... the most sane place I visit on the internet
I worry for you.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 02, 2020, 02:52:41 pm
I was going to say, where else do you frequent?!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 02, 2020, 03:00:03 pm
Well I've just seen Liam Fyfe (S Wales boulderer) telling people on FB not to take vaccines if they make one.. so ukb is a fair bit better than some places.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 02, 2020, 03:01:17 pm
Maybe he's keen to #takeonefortheteam?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 02, 2020, 03:53:27 pm
Seems to be an undercurrent of suspicion among certain people about the vaccine thing and social control measures. For e.g. I was walking home a couple of evenings ago and had crossed the street to get back to my house. A guy on the opposite side thought I was crossing the road to avoid him, and started chuckling and saying out loud stuff about 'scared of coronavirus' loud enough for me to hear him. I stopped and replied to him I wasn't avoiding him because of covid, but just because I needed to cross over to go into my house. There ensued a 10 minute conversation held across a road about how this is all a global scam and the governments will use the vaccine to insert digital monitors in us all. He also believed governments will use this event as an excuse to keep tougher social control measures in place indefinitely, using fear as justification.

None of which surprised me. I don't agree with him. Just wish I'd thought to say to him that just because he's paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get him.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 02, 2020, 04:10:46 pm
Wonder if there is a shortage of tin foil at supermarkets to make hats??

You must admit this must be a field day for conspiracy theorists!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 02, 2020, 05:22:34 pm
Seems to be an undercurrent of suspicion among certain people about the vaccine thing and social control measures. For e.g. I was walking home a couple of evenings ago and had crossed the street to get back to my house. A guy on the opposite side thought I was crossing the road to avoid him, and started chuckling and saying out loud stuff about 'scared of coronavirus' loud enough for me to hear him. I stopped and replied to him I wasn't avoiding him because of covid, but just because I needed to cross over to go into my house. There ensued a 10 minute conversation held across a road about how this is all a global scam and the governments will use the vaccine to insert digital monitors in us all. He also believed governments will use this event as an excuse to keep tougher social control measures in place indefinitely, using fear as justification.

None of which surprised me. I don't agree with him. Just wish I'd thought to say to him that just because he's paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get him.

I’ll see your nut job and raise you an absolute Fruit loop:

 https://abcnews.go.com/US/engineer-allegedly-crash-train-usns-mercy-los-angeles/story?id=69926172 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/engineer-allegedly-crash-train-usns-mercy-los-angeles/story?id=69926172)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 05, 2020, 09:54:35 am
Scotland's chief medical officer displaying perfectly why following the rules of lock-down is for the poor not the rich.
'Stay at home. Unless you're better than that. Then stay at second home (and bullshit to justify it).'
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/05/scotland-chief-medical-officer-seen-flouting-lockdown-advice-catherine-calderwood





Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 05, 2020, 09:59:18 am
Gonna be hard to convince people to adhere to long lockdowns with shit like that, plus the bullshit excuse. Maybe I just need to check on my project, take the clips out etc...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 05, 2020, 10:05:27 am
Yep, it's the upper class version of someone from Liverpool going to their caravan in Rhyl. Just dressed up and justified with intelligent-sounding bullshit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 05, 2020, 12:51:01 pm
That is a crock of shit. In normal times she would have to resign, but suppose there may be a requirement for her to keep doing the job given the exceptional circumstances. Either way i hope she got an absolute Malcolm Tucker of a bollocking. Beyond belief.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 05, 2020, 12:56:54 pm
I live on a street with 6-7 holiday/second homes and all are now filled with there owners.

A couple were already here and to be fair they have been since the shut down but 4 of them have arrived since Friday and 2 out of those have come up from London.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 06, 2020, 10:08:52 am
She's now resigned
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Adam Lincoln on April 06, 2020, 02:53:29 pm
Maybe I just need to check on my project, take the clips out etc...

It was a good enough one for one pro spanish climber!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Coops_13 on April 06, 2020, 04:19:25 pm
Lines of cars parked at Clear Creek Canyon yesterday apparently, people can be so selfish in this country  :furious:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 06, 2020, 06:38:56 pm
That Lord Sumption interview in full:

https://soundcloud.com/spectator1828/lord-sumption-discussing-the-police-response-to-coronavirus

Anyone think this will age well?


1min10secs: 'anyone who has studied history will recognise here, the classic symptoms of collective hysteria'.

Andy P?



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 06, 2020, 06:55:37 pm
Maybe I just need to check on my project, take the clips out etc...

It was a good enough one for one pro spanish climber!

Patxi says Hi?
Dani says Hi?  :lets_do_it_wild:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fatneck on April 09, 2020, 11:22:46 am
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 09, 2020, 12:14:47 pm
Post on the North Wales Facebook page saying the police have been in touch with the BMC and explicitly said they view bouldering as illegal under the Public Health Act, and anyone caught will be charged and find.

And yet still people are arguing the toss in the comments  :-\

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1459154380981768?view=permalink&id=2712985848931942&anchor_composer=false
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 09, 2020, 12:29:37 pm
I think it's worth noting the regulations are different in Wales to England, with specific regard to outdoor access.

As evidenced by most of those comments it is obviously still too early for most people to discuss this sensibly, but there is a difference between discussing the regulations with regard to the desire to go climbing now and discussing them with regard to the wider context of countryside access past and future. The second discussion will need to be held at some point.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 09, 2020, 01:01:43 pm
In the immediate term our access rights are most likely to be put at risk by fucking idiots continuing to go climbing. People have been out at the Tor as well apparently (source: ukc). Calling it out in our community is essential. It makes me so angry for a variety of reasons, it's so fucking selfish.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 09, 2020, 01:09:33 pm
Meanwhile on the Pex Facebook group adults are arguing about whether kids (with adult supervison) should be drawing in coloured chalk on the walls of Pex quarry...

It did remind me of that old adage of two bald men arguing over who gets the comb... 😃
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 09, 2020, 01:29:33 pm
And yet still people are arguing the toss in the comments  :-\

No they're not, it's just the same conversation(s) we've had on here, with a little existential despair thrown in on my part for good measure.


As evidenced by most of those comments it is obviously still too early for most people to discuss this sensibly,

Why? What's wrong with the comments? Count yourself lucky I didn't descend into a monologue about the futility of existence...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on April 09, 2020, 01:42:10 pm
What's wrong with the comments? Count yourself lucky I didn't descend into a monologue about the futility of existence...

Oh go on. That’s exactly the sort of thing I want to read right now  :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 09, 2020, 02:09:55 pm
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20

Surely if you are out climbing at the present time you wouldn't be so dumb as to publicly share it??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 09, 2020, 02:13:47 pm
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20

Surely if you are out climbing at the present time you wouldn't be so dumb as to publicly share it??

Maybe he couldn’t be bothered to run an Ultra in his back garden?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Adam Lincoln on April 09, 2020, 02:24:18 pm
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20

Surely if you are out climbing at the present time you wouldn't be so dumb as to publicly share it??

Saw someone share some bouldering in Wales on instagram the other day! I couldn't believe it. Training to be an outdoor MIA as well. God help us.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 09, 2020, 02:39:21 pm
I was out for a cycle the other night when I noticed a hitherto unclimbed quarry at the side of the road. I pulled in and walked through the gate into the field in which the quarry sat. I looked for projects, but alas it was all very very uninspiring. All of a sudden, a madness overtook me. I put my hand into a slot at shoulder height, looked down at my feet and saw two smears below me. I pasted the end of my cycling cleats on and locked the slot to reach the next break.

Just as I put my hand into the break, the rock an inch to the right of my head exploded as a high velocity round slammed into it. I dropped to the floor, cat-like, and rolled behind a boulder lying on the quarry floor. Huddled behind here I saw the red dot of the sniper's sight roaming the walls of the quarry, searching for where I'd gone. Reaching into the back pocket of my cycling jersey, I pulled out a mirror, a Steyr SSG 69, and my trusty service revolver. Using the mirror, I could see over the top of the boulder.

There he was atop a rocky tor. The shine of the setting sun hitting his reflective bonce was unmistakable.
"GREEEEEEEEEEEEEESH!", I roared.
Wind: 15 knots; northerly. Firing into the sun. 3Km range. The coriolis effect. Nobody could make that shot. But I was out of options.
I glanced around the quarry and spotted some oil barrels stacked up in the corner. Taking my revolver, I fired into them and they exploded immediately. As they did, I stood up, turned, and swung the rifle to my shoulder. The distraction hadn't been enough. The laser sight of Gresh's Lattice issue rifle connected with my sight and I was blinded. I pulled the trigger.

On the tor, the figure dropped to the ground. I spat into the dust. "That's for Tilberthwaite", I said. I walked back to my bike and rode on home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 09, 2020, 02:42:50 pm
I’m not sure that was what Barrows meant Will 😃
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 09, 2020, 03:02:47 pm
Meanwhile on the Pex Facebook group adults are arguing about whether kids (with adult supervison) should be drawing in coloured chalk on the walls of Pex quarry...

It did remind me of that old adage of two bald men arguing over who gets the comb... 😃

Is that a climber’s forum? Surely people cannot be that stupid?

Son:
“Dad, please can I graffiti a public amenity?”
Dad:
“ Why son, of course graffiti’s fine, I read it on Facebook””
 :wall:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 09, 2020, 04:14:34 pm
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20

Surely if you are out climbing at the present time you wouldn't be so dumb as to publicly share it??

Maybe he couldn’t be bothered to run an Ultra in his back garden?

Neither could I, nor many people? Doesn't mean I'm going climbing!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on April 09, 2020, 04:18:43 pm
It’s ok he’s now called TeflonChaz instead of AcidChaz- nothing sticks. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on April 09, 2020, 04:26:16 pm
they view bouldering as illegal under the Public Health Act

"Crusty jugglers" 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fatboyslimfast2 on April 09, 2020, 05:43:24 pm
Hi people, back again under a slightly updated moniker as the old one just would not work .
There were 3 people bouldering at the tor yesterday, I think there justification is that they are living in there vans (there are 2) in the layby. The water baliff lives 3 doors down from me and is concerned about where there shitting, hes been coming to and forward apparently for few weeks. Ive another mate lives next to the anglers and is immuno suppressed and walks up and down the road every day with his dog and is concerned and asked me why climbers are coming to climb.....
Another gent yesterday was at horseshoe shunting on one of the shit lines on the right.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 09, 2020, 05:55:28 pm
I despair. If those people are reading this, you're all selfish cunts
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 09, 2020, 06:02:35 pm
Hi fat boy, hope you and the fatboy family are all well  :wave:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: remus on April 09, 2020, 06:18:58 pm
...back again under a slightly updated moniker as the old one just would not work.

Off topic, but to be able to login I had to delete any cookies related to UKB otherwise it'd throw an error.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 09, 2020, 08:26:08 pm
And yet still people are arguing the toss in the comments  :-\

No they're not, it's just the same conversation(s) we've had on here, with a little existential despair thrown in on my part for good measure.

Sorry, "arguing the toss" translates to "discussing this like there are options and grey areas". I just don't see the point of debating it anymore  :shrug:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 09, 2020, 09:00:56 pm
Interesting item on the bbc news stream...

2m social distancing is for stationary people inside.

New research shows For walkers should be 4m, for runners 10m! Of course when you’re moving you disperse your droplets more effectively... etc.. etc..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 09, 2020, 09:27:21 pm
While at the other end of the spectrum: https://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1498185.html
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 09, 2020, 09:27:27 pm
When I'm out running i go at least to the opposite side of the road if possible, even changing routes if someone is running or walking ahead of me, and avoid any single track paths now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 09, 2020, 09:47:43 pm
When I’m out cycling I try to blow snot on every dog walker who has driven to out to walk their dog.
In the words of the Spanish Inquisition God will sort out the innocent.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 09, 2020, 09:50:49 pm
I reckon with careful aim you could drop an oyster on the car doorhandle.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Camo on April 09, 2020, 10:25:45 pm
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20

 :popcorn:

Bit of a joke he has A) done that in the first place. B) posted about it on social media and C) I reckon he dabs at 17 seconds in too!!!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 09, 2020, 10:36:04 pm
Hard to tell. Is he wearing trainers/approach shoes? And he's got his dog with him? So he took his dog for a walk, saw a little overhang and pottered up it?
 :tumble:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 09, 2020, 10:43:31 pm
I despair. If those people are reading this, you're all selfish cunts

I couldn't agree with you more. A thousand people a day dying in the UK alone, global economic catastrophe, and it's more important to them that they go and fail on weedkiller for the thousandth time. Why do these people think they're so fucking special?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Camo on April 09, 2020, 10:47:33 pm
Hard to tell. Is he wearing trainers/approach shoes? And he's got his dog with him? So he took his dog for a walk, saw a little overhang and pottered up it?
 :tumble:

I had another look, I think they are rock shoes and I wouldn’t let him off for the dab either!

With regards to him being out I think it depends on how he has interpreted the advice about exercise etc. I wouldn’t go climbing myself but he obviously sees it differently.

What I do think is a bit irritating is posting about it on social media. I think that will encourage more people to do the same and potentially make people travel to destinations to climb (don’t know if he travelled far himself).  If everyone and their dog goes out bouldering it wouldn’t work. If he thinks he’s got a nice quiet spot then it’s his call but posting a video of it is very unnecessary IMO.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 09, 2020, 10:47:34 pm
When I’m out cycling I try to blow snot on every dog walker who has driven to out to walk their dog.
In the words of the Spanish Inquisition God will sort out the innocent.

I'd love to be able to do that effectively, I'd probably end up blowing the snot all over my sunglasses. I just scowl and mutter to myself.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 09, 2020, 10:57:39 pm
I agree that posting a video is daft. But he probably hasn't seen UKB. If somebody doesn't look at climbing groups on social media they probably don't know which way the wind is blowing. For all I know he could have loaded up his Caddy with 5 pads and driven an hour to get there; or it could be a scruffy block a 10 minute walk from his house that he can monkey up in his walking shoes. On the Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on April 09, 2020, 11:10:10 pm
I thought even on the dark side that snitches get stitches yo. :ninja:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Camo on April 09, 2020, 11:10:27 pm
I agree that posting a video is daft. But he probably hasn't seen UKB. If somebody doesn't look at climbing groups on social media they probably don't know which way the wind is blowing. For all I know he could have loaded up his Caddy with 5 pads and driven an hour to get there; or it could be a scruffy block a 10 minute walk from his house that he can monkey up in his walking shoes. On the Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!

Haha I bet the cops just love that, as if they haven’t got enough to deal with!

I think common sense (or maybe it’s rare sense?) needs to come out on top. Like you say if it’s a scruffy little block on his dog walk route then it’s a lot less of a problem than what many people in the general population are doing.

Our neighbours (both retired) leave their house every day in the car and are gone for an hour or two. They could be doing something good but knowing them and the cynic in me says they aren’t and they will be going for a walk somewhere nice and/or doing the shopping. Every day though!!! Taking the piss as much as climbing in my eyes - not that anyone should lower their own standards just because others have lowered theirs.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 09:41:44 am
Does anyone on here know him personally? Time for a friendly word??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on April 10, 2020, 10:39:16 am
Someone at the very least should call put the dab. Freinds dont let freinds dab.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: r-man on April 10, 2020, 10:52:15 am
On Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!

What? Really? I didn't see that.

I'm uncomfortable with the amount of vitriol I've seen online.

I don't think hurling abuse at other climbers is helpful, either for the current situation (since when did calling people names achieve anything positive?) or long-term, when the web will retain a lasting record that climbers have painted themselves in a bad light.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 10, 2020, 11:12:39 am
On the Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!

Eh Will? I'd not seen anything like that....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 10, 2020, 11:16:03 am
On Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!

What? Really? I didn't see that.

I'm uncomfortable with the amount of vitriol I've seen online.

I don't think hurling abuse at other climbers is helpful, either for the current situation (since when did calling people names achieve anything positive?) or long-term, when the web will retain a lasting record that climbers have painted themselves in a bad light.

Which climbers were/are basking in that “bad light” do you think?
The name callers or the posters?

 :devangel:

I know what I feel, rightly or wrongly:

Climber A/ Called someone a bad name.

Climber B/ Failed to exercise self control, for a few weeks, in national crisis and then posted it on social media to encourage others to do the same and/or invite criticism and ire.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on April 10, 2020, 11:28:44 am
There were 3 people bouldering at the tor yesterday, I think there justification is that they are living in there vans (there are 2) in the layby. The water baliff lives 3 doors down from me and is concerned about where there shitting

Are they Spanish? If they can't go home then it's tricky. If they're from the UK they need to go home. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 11:33:11 am
I think 'living there' means they are vanlifers and the van IS their home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 10, 2020, 11:39:50 am
With apologies if I'm being naive or coming across as insensitive, i think its very likely that most climbers living in vans in the UK (cant be that many anyway, its not a 'thing' here like in Europe or the US) have parents, friends or other family in the UK where they could at least park the van nearby, or on the drive. Thats what they should do.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: r-man on April 10, 2020, 11:41:57 am

Which climbers were/are basking in that “bad light” do you think?
The name callers or the posters?

 :devangel:

I know what I feel, rightly or wrongly:

Climber A/ Called someone a bad name.

Climber B/ Failed to exercise self control, for a few weeks, in national crisis and then posted it on social media to encourage others to do the same and/or invite criticism and ire.

There was a photo shared on a Facebook group, not by the climber but by someone who had snapped them whilst on a bike ride. Cue much gnashing of teeth. I doubt this climber was aware of any of it. They may even have believed they were exercising in an acceptable socially distant manner - not everyone is part of the internet climbing community.

And now someone has posted a Twitter vid of climbing a lowball whilst out with his dog. I notice nobody has made any adverse comments on his tweet, or suggested that he modify his behaviour. In fact there are lots of likes. But yet, lots of comments here, on a forum he probably doesn't read.

What's the point of either response? If it's just to vent, then I'm suggesting that's not helpful. And may in fact be detrimental to the way climbers are treated in the long run.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 10, 2020, 11:46:00 am
Its an interesting point actually. I suppose it helps to reassure the online climbing community that they're doing the right thing by not climbing and should continue to do so? And might dissuade anyone close to snapping from heading out? Cant see that this thread would be damaging to the reputation of climbers in the future. It has examples of the odd numpty who has gone out and discussion from a significant majority saying that that isnt on, would have thougt that was helpful if anything?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on April 10, 2020, 11:49:28 am
With apologies if I'm being naive or coming across as insensitive, i think its very likely that most climbers living in vans in the UK (cant be that many anyway, its not a 'thing' here like in Europe or the US) have parents, friends or other family in the UK where they could at least park the van nearby, or on the drive. Thats what they should do.

I don't think I've ever seen UK van lifers (though admittedly I don't climb much in N. Wales, the lakes or Scotland where it might be more of a thing). Nick Bullock used to live in a van if I remember correctly. But then he probably wouldn't park it under the cromlech boulder and go climbing right now :shrug:


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 11:52:53 am
FWIW I agree. Not saying it's right btw. I've seen on motorhome forums that some people who Do live in their motorhomes have been getting abuse for parking up anywhere remote, and that some local authorities have provided them with places to park. I would have though most caravan parks would be closed up, maybe these guys should be permitted to use them, if they can prove they genuinely don't have a fixed residence.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 10, 2020, 12:00:04 pm
Its an interesting point actually. I suppose it helps to reassure the online climbing community that they're doing the right thing by not climbing and should continue to do so?

I suspect it's mostly just because people like to be angry on the internet, especially when bored/angry in real life. Half of the people getting outraged by someone climbing some lowball choss in the middle of nowhere whilst out for a walk will have just been for an hour long run, or will have spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lurcher on April 10, 2020, 12:02:02 pm
There's a few folk living in vans parked up below stanage.  Chatted to one of them last week while walking dog.   He was there before lockdown and was told by local police to stay put and not go anywhere else.   
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 12:15:46 pm
spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.

I think you'll find one of those is crucial to current existence.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AMorris on April 10, 2020, 12:24:56 pm
I support the ban but I can't help but shake the feeling that if you are shuffling up a local lowball chosspile during your allotted 1 exercise per day walk, and keeping largely out of sight, you are probably acting within socially acceptable boundaries.

In contrast I see a lot on social media about how everyone and their dog are now training for half marathons, bashing out 10km 3+ times a week, or jumping on their bike and going for quick 30km cycle. This is potentially bringing them into contact with far more people than that lad on his lowball, if we are to accept the hypothetical scenario that it is 15 minutes from his house and he was off walking to dog.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 12:30:08 pm
Sharing on social media is stupid though, hence saying someone should have a quiet word, rather than posting publicly, which is always going to raise heckles.

I'm staying within guidelines, but keeping running private on Strava for now, i can forego the kudos.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AMorris on April 10, 2020, 12:38:57 pm
Sharing on social media is stupid though, hence saying someone should have a quiet word, rather than posting publicly, which is always going to raise heckles.

I'm staying within guidelines, but keeping running private on Strava for now, i can forego the kudos.

Yes certainly sharing on SM is a tad reckless. I can see how it might come about though, since most outdoor activities are now seeing a boom in people partaking in them. Certain people, I have noticed, are now keeping quiet about various cycles and runs I know them to be going for, but quite a few who were previously barely getting out on the weekends are now sharing every km they cover. If you see this and are not embedded in internet climbing forums then it would probably seem reasonable. With this in mind, yeah a quiet word is probably more appropriate than ire which he could easily attract.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 01:22:22 pm
I suspect it's mostly just because people like to be angry on the internet, especially when bored/angry in real life. Half of the people getting outraged by someone climbing some lowball choss in the middle of nowhere whilst out for a walk will have just been for an hour long run, or will have spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.

What about those buying non-essential alcohol and easter eggs, AND going bouldering? They should burn in hell.

(no such thing as non-essential alcohol and chocolate btw)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on April 10, 2020, 01:27:16 pm
I got easter eggs delivered with my shopping. Should I cover myself in hammer and sickle stickers and feed myself to daily mail readers in penance? Confusing times.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 10, 2020, 01:29:03 pm
Re going out cycling. If a fit road cyclist can smash out 50+ km in 2 hours, I can't see anything wrong in that. I'm going road cycling at the moment although not that far as I'm definitely not fit! I doubt I'm within 5m of anyone who isn't an inconsiderate driver passing too close. It's safe as there are hardly any cars on the road, and my front door and bike handlebars are the only thing I touch with gloved hands.
I think that remaining clearly within the spirit of the guidelines is the way to go. I could walk to a crag in about an hour, but I'd see that as taking the piss, and am not doing that, any more than I'd go to the park for a picnic.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 10, 2020, 01:29:31 pm
I wrote a big post about my feelings on this, which are complex and subtle and poorly dealt with online. So I deleted it.

But I do think that it’s actually amazing and heartening how many people are behaving responsibly, despite how grim it is. Focusing on the one or two people who may not be winds everyone up on both sides.

Maybe it distracts us from feeling good about the way most of us are actually behaving, and giving ourselves some encouragement and a pat on the back?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 10, 2020, 01:31:01 pm
I suspect it's mostly just because people like to be angry on the internet, especially when bored/angry in real life. Half of the people getting outraged by someone climbing some lowball choss in the middle of nowhere whilst out for a walk will have just been for an hour long run, or will have spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.

What about those buying non-essential alcohol and easter eggs, AND going bouldering? They should burn in hell.

(no such thing as non-essential alcohol and chocolate btw)

Yes Alex! Just because you don't consider alcohol essential doesn't mean everyone does. Alcoholic self medication after work is essential at the moment.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 10, 2020, 01:31:12 pm
Its an interesting point actually. I suppose it helps to reassure the online climbing community that they're doing the right thing by not climbing and should continue to do so?

I suspect it's mostly just because people like to be angry on the internet, especially when bored/angry in real life. Half of the people getting outraged by someone climbing some lowball choss in the middle of nowhere whilst out for a walk will have just been for an hour long run, or will have spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.

It’s grief, apparently. Manifesting itself in anger.

Grief for loss of your previous life, loss of control, no longer being able to do the things you enjoy etc.

Probably why it doesn’t seem that bad if you’ve got kids  :lol:.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 01:40:09 pm
I got easter eggs delivered with my shopping. Should I cover myself in hammer and sickle stickers and feed myself to daily mail readers in penance? Confusing times.

Reckless purchasing of non-essential chocolate (except no such thing exists), and risking diabetes - thus imposing extra demand on the NHS. Staked out on Rannoch Moor for the midges to eat you.


Disclosure: big house and nice garden, countryside, hills, mountains, beaches and loads of nice footpaths to walk on from my front door. Discrete low-ball lime bouldering crag within an easy 30 min walk or 10 minute ride of my house. Crag is  hidden from view, no-one walks past it as it isn't on a footpath, no-one else except one person goes there as it's off the radar, decent quality up probs and fitness traverses, mix of sunny and shady, good conditions right now. Sucks to live in a city right now :tease:
 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: GazM on April 10, 2020, 01:45:28 pm
Probably why it doesn’t seem that bad if you’ve got kids  :lol:.

That made me laugh! So true. With a 4 month old and a 2.5yr old our lives haven't really changed at all!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AMorris on April 10, 2020, 01:58:51 pm
Re going out cycling. If a fit road cyclist can smash out 50+ km in 2 hours, I can't see anything wrong in that. I'm going road cycling at the moment although not that far as I'm definitely not fit! I doubt I'm within 5m of anyone who isn't an inconsiderate driver passing too close. It's safe as there are hardly any cars on the road, and my front door and bike handlebars are the only thing I touch with gloved hands.
I think that remaining clearly within the spirit of the guidelines is the way to go. I could walk to a crag in about an hour, but I'd see that as taking the piss, and am not doing that, any more than I'd go to the park for a picnic.

I see your point, but I do not think it is quite so simple. It has not yet been fully elucidated how much aerosol transmission plays a part in the spread of COVID-19, and rudimentary simulations suggest that there could be a conversation to be had about the capacity of a runner or cycler, who is covering a large distance, to leave behind them an effective 'aerosol wake'. It stands to reason that the larger distance you cover, the more likely you are to come in to contact with/spread COVID-19.

I feel like going for a 50km cycle, as 'allowed' as it is right now, is not clearly within the spirit of the guidelines at all, since all of the guidelines are designed to prevent excessive movement of people.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to dictate anyones behaviour, nor am I calling for anything to be banned or guidelines to be tightened. I do think that conversation should be balanced, however.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Nigel on April 10, 2020, 02:19:01 pm
Are people with the virus likely to be running / cycling? Genuine question btw, I have zero medical knowledge.

I had some ailment back in late feb, similar to the described symptoms of covid (not saying it was that though). I could barely be arsed to go to the bog, never mind run.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on April 10, 2020, 02:20:47 pm
Are people with the virus likely to be running / cycling? Genuine question btw, I have zero medical knowledge.
Yes. There are a large number who are either asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 10, 2020, 02:21:35 pm
If you are asymptonatic you won’t have symptoms.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 10, 2020, 02:33:53 pm
What about those buying non-essential alcohol and easter eggs, AND going bouldering? They should burn in hell.

At least they're internal consistent ;)

It's safe as there are hardly any cars on the road

You consider it to be safe, like others consider other things to be safe. All of this is just internal risk assessments, usually based on no evidence. Since biking is typically ~15-40x more dangerous per km than drving (https://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/road-casualties-2018-vital-statistics-cycle-campaigning), unless you know how many of those incidents are being removed by the reduced traffic it's all just rough swags, generally done internally and without actually working out what it is you're making estimates for...

I don't think it makes any sense for people to get too sanctimonious and self-righteous about things like someone climbing some lowball piece of choss near their house, especially unless the preacher is literally leaving the house once every 2-3 weeks to do a single, efficient, shop for food that's essential.

Personally I think most people are operating within the letter, not the spirit, of the advice when doing more than 20-30min exercise 2-4 times per week. But as for everyone else, that's just some shit I made up based on nothing but what is/isn't important to me and the perceived risks and guessed perceptions-of/influence-on others in the community. And that advice is just broad brush strokes based on broad brush stroke models and limited data anyway.


Grief for loss of your previous life, loss of control, no longer being able to do the things you enjoy etc.

Very much so.

p.s. screw having kids.
p.p.s. I hope you fall off and get your brush stuck up your bum Pete.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 10, 2020, 02:34:07 pm
Re going out cycling. If a fit road cyclist can smash out 50+ km in 2 hours, I can't see anything wrong in that.

Whoa whoa whoa! You've taken quite a hard line on this, Toby, so this surprises me. When I've been on my bike I've generally stayed within a distance of home which, if push came to shove, I could walk back from (in the event of a big mechanical which I couldn't fix without assistance - very unlikely). This is a bit overkill as my wife could get the kids in the car and come and get me (though there would be some wrath to suffer). But 50km? Max distance from home of 25km? Is anyone really going to be able to walk that home? I'm surprised that that seems OK when compared with some of the things that you're saying aren't OK.

But I do think that it’s actually amazing and heartening how many people are behaving responsibly, despite how grim it is. Focusing on the one or two people who may not be winds everyone up on both sides.

This. There were some pictures on the news of some Londoners in a park and everyone going mental that "this will make the lockdown stricter and spoil it for the rest of us". A handful of Londoners in a densely packed area, miles apart from each other in a huge park. You're never going to get 100% compliance. The images seemed fine to me.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 10, 2020, 02:36:39 pm
But 50km? Max distance from home of 25km?

You know it’s possible to ride 50 km without being further than a few km from your home if you want to right?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 10, 2020, 02:39:04 pm
But 50km? Max distance from home of 25km?

You know it’s possible to ride 50 km without being further than a few km from your home if you want to right?

Somehow I'm guessing that's not what was happening, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 10, 2020, 02:41:32 pm
I'm surprised that that seems OK when compared with some of the things that you're saying aren't OK.

I think people are mostly being lead by instinct and group-think, not rational assessments of anything. I include myself in that, but less so than the people buying alcohol and then drinking it at home after their long run/bike which was essential for maintaining health, whilst telling people off for sunbathing 20m away from anyone else.

You know it’s possible to ride 50 km without being further than a few km from your home if you want to right?

You could do it in your 2m long back yard even.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 10, 2020, 02:44:04 pm

You could do it in your 2m long back yard even.

Might be hard to maintain the 25km/hr average that Toby was talking about then!

Will, plenty of examples on my Strava of people doing relatively tight loops both running and cycling.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 10, 2020, 02:48:31 pm
Might be hard to maintain the 25km/hr average that Toby was talking about then!

Et voila!
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/theguidewnc.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/30/8309e87a-7d70-11e9-898a-d3c92c4a81c3/5ce6be0dac99e.image.jpg?resize=750%2C500)

Might get quite dizzy on a 2m diameter though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 02:50:41 pm
p.p.s. I hope you fall off and get your brush stuck up your bum Pete.

Note to self, remove brush from chalkbag. (IF I was to actually go climbing of course).


I think there'll be relatively very few climbers living in circumstances that allow them to go climbing without it either:
a. being picked up on by other people (because it's a bit public)
b. feeling to the climber like it's taking the piss a little bit out of the spirit of the guidance (assuming climber has a reasonably moral conscience) because it's either:
  1. potentially a bit dangerous
  2. potentially risks spreading virus because the crag is shared with many others.

Then there's the absurdity of people posting on insta/twiter/FB what they're actually up to. Can't understand why you'd do this, except if you've become so addicted to digital likes from strangers that you can't do anything without them.

That leaves a relatively small number of people living in fortunate circumstances.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 02:55:09 pm
I have about a half dozen options fitting the criteria. Could even stash a pad and shoes that would be safely left there.

all criteria that is, except b. feeling to the climber like it's taking a little bit of the piss out of the spirit of the guidance and not because of 1. or 2.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 03:03:29 pm
I guess that's the heart of the chatter on here and elsewhere. What's taking the piss and what isn't - I think this is fairly black and white, mostly don't climb, but there clearly are circumstances that are OK to all but the most extremist stayathomer - I'm talking the people who live out in the sticks or in quiet areas and have a hidden-from-view lowball boulder in their locale that no-one else uses.
Then there's the what 'feels', to different people, like taking the piss. Much more fuzzy and the source of all this angst.


edit: what makes it taking the piss to you if you went to one of those spots SA? Is it the fact others would know? Or just you wouldn't feel good?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 03:07:28 pm
I don't want to feel like I shouldn't be there, the whole time I'm climbing, I just wouldn't enjoy it.

And besides the haar has just come in :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 03:09:42 pm
Ah just saw you answered before I posted my question. Fair enough. Clear cut for you then.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 10, 2020, 03:15:54 pm
Apparently it's not just idle folk on ukb discussing what is/isn't ok, even the police still have to tell their own officers off (for telling people not to use their gardens)
https://twitter.com/grandad1975/status/1248247686563631104
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on April 10, 2020, 03:20:44 pm
What stu said. I think the public in general have been amazing about this, especially those in cities and considering the amazing weather.

And its def no worse to do safe lowballs walking distance from your house than going on a bike ride/run imo, just don't do it somewhere public, and don't post online about it.

Also what barrows said about Pete getting his brush stuck up his bum.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 03:23:54 pm
Apparently it's not just idle folk on ukb discussing what is/isn't ok, even the police still have to tell their own officers off (for telling people not to use their gardens)
https://twitter.com/grandad1975/status/1248247686563631104


Christ that's grim. The grimness of stupidity. Like I say, sucks right now to live in a city or densely-populated area with nannies like that around. On the other hand I bet her job sucks right now too, having to deal with bozos like that who appear to enjoy arguing the toss like a stroppy teenager.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 03:27:10 pm
To be fair with all those fag ends all over the garden I'd keep my kids out of it too!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 10, 2020, 03:43:29 pm
But 50km? Max distance from home of 25km? Is anyone really going to be able to walk that home? I'm surprised that that seems OK when compared with some of the things that you're saying aren't OK.

The reality is for where I live, unless I stay in the valley (which is inherently busier both with bike, and car/tractor traffic), as soon as I'm over one of the rather large hills (~5 miles) that surround this place, walking home isn't really an option. How far can you realistically plan to walk in cleats anyway? Thinking back on my near misses, they're almost all between me and Longridge which is ostensibly flat.

I think it's easy to latch onto the distance from home but in reality that isn't the best measure. Choice of route (familiarity, traffic [both bike and car] etc.) and the ability to be self-sufficient in terms of repair are more important although perhaps that's justifying my own choices  :-\. I think I've called for help once since starting riding a few years ago and that was me being utterly lazy knowing Nat was passing and having got my timings a bit wrong (it was getting a bit dark).

I've turned Strava onto private as has my Dad as I think I'm lucky in living somewhere where in a short distance (leaving from my front door) I can be fairly certain of seeing very few people. I don't feel like I've been taking the p*ss at all but from reading this would expect a few raised eyebrows if I were to post distances/duration.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 03:48:39 pm
Just on a pragmatic point - people riding roadbikes could easily zip-tie a pair of lightweight fell-running shoes or approach shoes to their frames to allow walking home if necessary. Or carry in a light pack.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 10, 2020, 03:52:02 pm
Just on a pragmatic point - people riding roadbikes could easily zip-tie a pair of lightweight fell-running shoes or approach shoes to their frames to allow walking home if necessary. Or carry in a light pack.

A set of FiveFingers rammed in your jersey pockets?  ;D You can obviously remove the cleats too.

EDIT: I guess my point was that it's easy to fixate on how far you are from home, but walking back is the last thing you should need to rely on after all of the other self sufficiency/preservation measures.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 10, 2020, 04:01:26 pm
Just on a pragmatic point - people riding roadbikes could easily zip-tie a pair of lightweight fell-running shoes or approach shoes to their frames to allow walking home if necessary. Or carry in a light pack.

Fine unless you spannered your bike going downhill too fast, falling off and busting a collarbone. I think cycling well within your limits must be another factor to include. Those Strava segments will always be there..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 10, 2020, 04:04:54 pm
Fine unless you spannered your bike going downhill too fast, falling off and busting a collarbone. I think cycling well within your limits must be another factor to include. Those Strava segments will always be there..

Completely but nobody is suggesting that hitting national speed limit is a reasonable thing to be doing! The pheasants (seeing very little in the way of traffic) are a special kind of stupid this year.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on April 10, 2020, 04:17:18 pm
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fiveknuckle21 on April 10, 2020, 04:20:17 pm
I'm with Paul B on this one. I haven't had a return to cycling, rather running, but i believe route choice and also the time of activity are paramount to my decision if and when heading out. If i was to go for a midday run through the middle of Stockport, utilising local cut throughs, parks, busy streets etc I'm more than aware that my potential to transfer the virus if i am infact asymptomatic would be significantly more likely than if i were to run the same distance, in the opposing direction, say up towards Disley, post 8pm.

In the spirit of the current restrictions I believe you should assume that you are asymptomatic. For me this has meant modifying my time of exercise and using local knowledge to try best to avoid anyone. I ran a 'decent' distance on Sunday evening and came across 4 or 5 people.

   
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 10, 2020, 04:25:42 pm
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)

Yup.

Though to me, it’s not distance per-se, it’s inter community travel. You could manage 50k and never be more than 2 from your home. Or, for me, I could go from home to Teignmouth and back, via several small villages and Newton Abbot, so if I was a reeeally good shedder; I could expose a good 200k of population...

If, and it’s a big if, it’s that easily spread by aerosol.

Caveat: I doubt it, but you get the point, right?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 10, 2020, 04:33:29 pm
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)

There's no need to apologise, it's a discussion group and the reason I post/read is to hear what others have to say. I WAS critical of certain behaviors early doors, some I still feel rightly so, others less so.  :worms:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 04:34:13 pm
I think it is those things Matt but more than anything it’s where you live. Someone doing a 100k ride in some parts of Wales or Scotland (or England!) would be far less likely to spread virus to other people compared to someone doing a 5k ride around Stockport or any.other.town.
It’s clear the restrictions are in place in the main (not totally) to reduce and slow down spread in densely populated areas. Those of us who live in rural areas are, I suggest, mostly playing along to feel good about ourselves, display solidarity and community spirit, show a good example (and not encourage people into the countryside from other areas), and yes to not spread virus even though the likelihood - based purely on number of other people encountered - must be so much lower than in towns and cities.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 10, 2020, 04:53:08 pm
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive...

I guess it would be a different conversation if the government had said ‘one form of exercise a day, walking, running or lowball bouldering’.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: twoshoes on April 10, 2020, 05:01:12 pm
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)

I'm not sure there's been a double standard. With climbing, the main concern for many people, at least initially, was transmission via contact with infected surfaces - ie. holds. You obviously don't have that problem cycling.

This is obviously leaving aside the potential for accidents (DIY etc etc etc, that's been done to death.) and was before the recent Belgian report into the effects of aerosol transmission.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 10, 2020, 05:02:08 pm
Exactly Pete.
I was angling for the inter community aspect. I could ride laps of St Marychurch and be no worse off than going to do the shop. 
If you live rurally, you’re fine.

At least you would have been, if half of Chelsea wasn’t “isolating” in every converted barn, former small holding and (in caravans) every lay-by...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 10, 2020, 05:11:55 pm
Regards that Belgian report on aerosol transmission, surely most sensible people already knew that this virus is transmitted by aerosol though? So really, despite the restrictions saying running/cycling are OK, many people who are going running/cycling (especially in populated areas) probably knew at an institute level somewhere in the recesses of their minds that those activities which involve heavily exhaling will carry a risk of transmission above that of gentle walking. Don’t know what point I’m making - maybe that people know they’re doing something that isn’t ideal but if the regulations say it’s OK then that’s all the justification they need.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 10, 2020, 05:12:43 pm
What has shifted from 3 weeks ago - is that there seems to be more evidence that CV19 is less likely to be transmitted by contact - and more likely by droplets from someone sneezing, coughing or breathing (esp heavily I would imagine - looking at you runners...).

It would seem that washing hands is less important - and staying the fuck away from other people is more relevant now...

Maybe the guidelines should be revised? and - doesnt it make it seem rather futile that we were all washing our hands 10 times a day 5-6 weeks ago (which certainly helps) rather than closing schools....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: twoshoes on April 10, 2020, 05:17:31 pm
Regards that Belgian report on aerosol transmission, surely most sensible people already knew that this virus is transmitted by aerosol though? So really, despite the restrictions saying running/cycling are OK, many people who are going running/cycling (especially in populated areas) probably knew at an institute level somewhere in the recesses of their minds that those activities which involve heavily exhaling will carry a risk of transmission above that of gentle walking. Don’t know what point I’m making - maybe that people know they’re doing something that isn’t ideal but if the regulations say it’s OK then that’s all the justification they need.

If you're talking purely about perception, then the consistent advice has been to wash your hands, wear gloves etc, whereas we're also told that masks may or may not make a difference and that the 2-metre distancing is lower in other countries. So for many people the impression is given that touching is bad, breathing is a worst an unknown. I don't know what point I'm making either.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cowboyhat on April 10, 2020, 05:42:41 pm
Apparently it's not just idle folk on ukb discussing what is/isn't ok, even the police still have to tell their own officers off (for telling people not to use their gardens)
https://twitter.com/grandad1975/status/1248247686563631104


Christ that's grim. The grimness of stupidity. Like I say, sucks right now to live in a city or densely-populated area with nannies like that around. On the other hand I bet her job sucks right now too, having to deal with bozos like that who appear to enjoy arguing the toss like a stroppy teenager.

Context is important here; thats eatswood, notoriously the poorest area of down town Rotherham. The cops will have just been cruising around the neighbourhood looking to wind up the scrotes who spend their days winding them up.

They are just picking on poor people. And judging by her accent not much would have to change to find herself on the other side of that conversation.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on April 10, 2020, 06:05:18 pm

I guess it would be a different conversation if the government had said ‘one form of exercise a day, walking, running or lowball bouldering’.

That was for the BMC to say. I'm wearing my captain hindsight socks here, but was there not an option to frame it as: don't go climbing but lowballing is allowed as exercise if it fits in the general guidelines (local, no driving, household only, social distancing, your 1 exercise etc), you wash hands before and after, and wash your hands of social media too. Instead the blanket ban re-enforced the public image that all climbing is the same and holds the same risks. Fuel for the curtain twitchers. I feel uneasy arguing this point, but I feel an awful lot more uneasy with community snitching and police declaring bouldering illegal.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 10, 2020, 06:16:54 pm
As per the govt’s message the BMC one needed to be straightforward and strong. What’s a lowball? What’s local? Anything but ‘no climbing’ leaves large grey areas and potentially comeback from the govt as a governing body.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on April 10, 2020, 06:25:50 pm
Regards that Belgian report on aerosol transmission, surely most sensible people already knew that this virus is transmitted by aerosol though? So really, despite the restrictions saying running/cycling are OK, many people who are going running/cycling (especially in populated areas) probably knew at an institute level somewhere in the recesses of their minds that those activities which involve heavily exhaling will carry a risk of transmission above that of gentle walking. Don’t know what point I’m making - maybe that people know they’re doing something that isn’t ideal but if the regulations say it’s OK then that’s all the justification they need.

I still run to and around the parks close to my house in Northampton town centre about 3 times a week and walk most other days. I haven't been within 5m of anybody this week (excluding people in their houses or cars). I generally adjust my direction or speed to maximise the distance between myself and others and rarely come within 30m of someone else once off the residential streets.

You can't get the risk down to zero but this seems like a reasonable compromise. With a bit of planning, keeping big distances is quite easy for most people outside of central London.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 10, 2020, 06:27:10 pm
What teestub said. It's not community snitching to point out that bouldering at Raven Tor, of all places, is both crushingly dim and incredibly selfish. I don't have an opinion on the guy walking his dog on the moors apart from it was (again) crushingly dim to put on instagram. There's a theme emerging here.

Your argument is the same as Adams; namely, people should be trusted to be sensible. My argument, Tim's too, is that all that grey area will be exploited unfortunately.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 10, 2020, 11:22:53 pm
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)

Yup.

Though to me, it’s not distance per-se, it’s inter community travel. You could manage 50k and never be more than 2 from your home. Or, for me, I could go from home to Teignmouth and back, via several small villages and Newton Abbot, so if I was a reeeally good shedder; I could expose a good 200k of population...

If, and it’s a big if, it’s that easily spread by aerosol.

Caveat: I doubt it, but you get the point, right?

Whereas I can go through precisely no other towns or villages, and past a lot of empty moorland. If coranovirus was infectious enough to be spread across miles of moorland on the breeze, we'd all already have it.

Will my feeling that cycling is pretty okay and climbing is not, is mostly based on the fact that a reasonable number of people can be out on the road, cycling independently and not be near or interact with each other, whereas if one takes climbing as ok then it really doesn't take many people at a crag for proximity and interaction to be likely.

Alex, you're right I don't have any data, nor I suspect does anyone else. But I'd be surprised if the majority of cycling accidents weren't collisions with or caused by car drivers.
I have a feeling one of the most common ones is someone opening car door in front of cyclist passing row of cars parked at the side of an urban road.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 11, 2020, 12:01:23 am
Somewhere there's a road biking forum where they've all agreed that they should stick to the turbo for biking but that a spot of lowball bouldering is probably fine...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 11, 2020, 08:43:50 am

Somewhere there's a road biking forum where they've all agreed that they should stick to the turbo for biking but that a spot of lowball bouldering is probably fine...

 :lol:

If you're on alternative realities to try to stay sane, would this is worse if the best strategy was all to stay as close to one another as possible?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Yossarian on April 11, 2020, 10:05:27 am
I think this Tweet from Will Wiles yesterday perfectly sums up the problem...

The fissile centre of the English soul is the irreconcilable conflict between belief in one's own inviolable freedom, and belief that others are taking liberties.
 https://twitter.com/WillWiles/status/1248555486884106250 (https://twitter.com/WillWiles/status/1248555486884106250)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 11, 2020, 10:06:58 am
Using the cycling - bouldering comparison, I’m guessing cycling clubs are not going out in peletons at the moment - the equivalent of some mates bouldering together...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 11, 2020, 10:07:13 am
Somewhere there's a road biking forum where they've all agreed that they should stick to the turbo for biking but that a spot of lowball bouldering is probably fine...

:clap2:

Likewise I wonder if somewhere there's a forum of government MPs debating the state of climbing.. and whether they should logpile the DFBWGC thread (dead fit backbenchers who go to committees)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 11, 2020, 10:08:50 am
Maybe that’s what’s been occupying Priti Patel for the last 3 weeks...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: HarryBD on April 11, 2020, 10:33:01 am
Using the cycling - bouldering comparison, I’m guessing cycling clubs are not going out in peletons at the moment - the equivalent of some mates bouldering together...

All clubs I have been part of have cancelled ‘club runs’ for the foreseeable. Old uni club probably a bit later than was sensible...

Imagine there’s a lot of anxiety amongst amateur racers that their rivals are all getting fitter by bending the guidance to suit their 100mile essential training spins. The full-time racer living out the pocket of Mum and Dad is a pretty big thing in cycling - lots treating it as their ‘job’ they get paid a few fuckalls for. They couldn’t do that from home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 11, 2020, 10:51:33 am
Maybe that’s what’s been occupying Priti Patel for the last 3 weeks...

She’s probably dead (or, at least, undead) but really only fit for an Infowars editorship.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on April 11, 2020, 11:15:14 am
Yeah I know the arguments and generally agree. I just don't like the way things are headed with police involvement and shaming. I don't think it's black and white and circumstances can differ massively. I realise public perception is such a big part of this though and rational arguments don't make a dent there...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 11, 2020, 11:45:22 am
I’m sure there are plenty of floutings of the rules in Spain, France and Italy... i can’t help but think that the french/Spanish system where you have to go online and register then print out a form saying you’re allowed to go out would make it black and white to police.

But we traditionally police by consent etc...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wil on April 11, 2020, 11:48:31 am
The full-time racer living out the pocket of Mum and Dad is a pretty big thing in cycling - lots treating it as their ‘job’ they get paid a few fuckalls for. They couldn’t do that from home.

Plenty of these in the (competition) climbing world, but most seem to have their own wall to train on at home.

It's interesting that the "full time climber" has gone from dirtbags, drugs and danger where making money from it is seen as selling out, to the sanitized world of competitions where despite not making money you describe yourself as professional.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: RobinB on April 11, 2020, 12:41:01 pm
I've not contributed to these forums for a while but have been interested in the ongoing debate about whether bouldering outside and road cycling are still acceptable. Like most people who have posted, I realised pretty early on that bouldering outside isn't really acceptable in the current climate (unless you have the mythical boulder in your back garden, within walking distance of your house etc).
However, as somebody who dabbles in both, I think that road cycling - .as long as you're cycling by yourself, have backup from somebody who lives at the same address and can pick you up in the event of a complete mechanical, use quiet roads, don't stop in small Peak district villages to buy cake etc - I.e. act sensibly - then this is still a viable form of exercise in the current lock-down.
However dull road cycling might be perceived by some boulderers, it's nowhere near as boring as finger-boarding or other forms of home training. It also definitely doesn't bulk your leg muscles out (mine are still sparrow thin). Give it a go - you might enjoy it!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: robertostallioni on April 11, 2020, 12:55:42 pm
Plenty of these in the (competition) climbing world, but most seem to have their own wall to train on at home.

It's interesting that the "full time climber" has gone from dirtbags, drugs and danger where making money from it is seen as selling out, to the sanitized world of competitions where despite not making money you describe yourself as professional.

Thats not my experience at all. None of the competition climbers I know would describe themselves as "pro climbers". They make their money as routesetters and describe themselves thus.
I would expect from the comp climbing scene only Shauna is actually a professional, with 2-3 more heavily sponsored full-time climbers.
I'm sure we have more pro climbers out there, but not in the comp climbing ranks.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wil on April 11, 2020, 01:57:19 pm
[quote author=robertostallioni link=topic=30540.msg604627#msg604627 date=15866
Thats not my experience at all. None of the competition climbers I know would describe themselves as "pro climbers".
[/quote]

I used a very broad brush there didn't I? You're right, but there is still a shift in the attitude towards professionalism.

I had a look through the Instagram accounts of the current GB Senior Men's and Women's teams. Obviously not a perfect measure, but 6 describe themselves as "Pro Climbers" in their Bio, 3 as routesetters, none as both. It would be interesting to know how many actually make the majority of their income from sponsorships, I think 4 from the list I looked at, with 2 making a reasonably good living. I've met most of the GB team at some point, but I don't have much experience with people who might be on the boundaries of it, so I've no idea beyond social media presentations. It's not a criticism of them, just an observation.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on April 11, 2020, 03:24:26 pm
However, as somebody who dabbles in both, I think that road cycling - .as long as you're cycling by yourself, have backup from somebody who lives at the same address and can pick you up in the event of a complete mechanical, use quiet roads, don't stop in small Peak district villages to buy cake etc - I.e. act sensibly - then this is still a viable form of exercise in the current lock-down.

Again not being critical, I've been out on my bike, but I think you're applying the same ifs and buts as others are to other activities. But the risk of clattering yourself is still much higher than other activities. You don't have to be racing to hit a pothole. Then your interacting with everyone in A&E. Personally I think the risk can be managed and can be acceptable in most cases (your ifs and buts), but I find it strange that people are applying very different levels of acceptability to different activities.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: RobinB on April 11, 2020, 04:02:32 pm
Quote
the risk of clattering yourself is still much higher than other activities

I would dispute the 'much higher than other activities' bit. As long as you're sensible going downhill and don't do anything silly, the risk can be minimised. With the vastly reduced amount of motorised traffic on the road, I think the main cause of risk has been significantly taken away.
Any activity has some element of risk - and hence possible burden on the Accident and Emergency services. I can't say for certain that I won't have an accident on my road bike but I would hope that it is unlikely. Indoor finger-boarding does carry some risk - but I think most people would consider this to be acceptable.
I suspect one of the main causes of call-outs to the Emergency services over the next few weeks will be from DIY accidents as a result of people being stuck in their own homes for a prolonged period :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 11, 2020, 11:31:12 pm


I would dispute the 'much higher than other activities' bit. As long as you're sensible going downhill how high you climb and don't do anything silly, the risk can be minimised. With the vastly reduced amount of motorised traffic on the road people at the (carefully selected obscure and local) crag, I think the main cause of risk has been significantly taken away.
Any activity has some element of risk - and hence possible burden on the Accident and Emergency services. I can't say for certain that I won't have an accident on my road bike lowball traverse but I would hope that it is unlikely.
Just sayin like...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 11, 2020, 11:43:01 pm
I found this thread to be incredibly depressing:
https://twitter.com/bexmo/status/1248588173447442432?s=21

I understand that London is so densely populated that maybe they have a different perspective on things. But people complaining about a 2 year old doing forward rolls in a park? Fucking hell!

Lots of people arguing that you can do yoga at home. You can also walk at home. Obviously.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 12, 2020, 09:35:14 am
Cycling has the nod over bouldering because (a) it’s more popular - so more folk are likely do so it as their ‘exercise’ but also (b) because not many people use their bouldering mat to get to work....

But - what bonjoy points out above... 👆
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on April 12, 2020, 09:50:27 am
and perhaps because it's actually stated as an appropriate form of exercise in the examples given by the government?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 12, 2020, 10:29:45 am
The gov saying something makes it legally right, but doesn't really impact on whether it's morally  right or logically coherent (for now let's avoid questions about whether moral absolutes exist)...

That Twitter thread, and the police actions, are depressing. This shit will backfire too - I like to follow rules, but if a policeman told me off for something I'd probably stop doing it and come back later and carry on, because there's too much evidence of police dumbness for me to respect their opinion (plus a £30 fine is hardly a big deal)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 12, 2020, 10:40:22 am
The Canal and Rivers Trust are asking people to report anyone fishing on canals to the police and the Environment Agency.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 12, 2020, 11:30:48 am
Try to look at it from the police's viewpoint Alex. The goal of the restrictions is to reduce numbers of people going outside except for 'essential' activities. It's shit being the park nazis but they've been handed a shit remit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 12, 2020, 11:33:20 am
Cycling is better than bouldering because you can do it from out of your front door. Bouldering at popular spots is likely to be worse for transmission because of people spending time in proximity to each other, but the big argument against bouldering in out of the way spots is that you have to drive somewhere to do it. The arguments for and against that have been well hashed out in this thread, but the inarguable fact is that it isn’t an issue for cyclists.

Many people have argued on this thread that we need to cut some people slack before judging their behaviour on social media. I agree with that, but i think it works both ways. People are scared. And even those who aren’t scared get angry when they are restricting themselves and see others failing to do the same. Those threads are sad because they’re uncivil, but I don’t judge the people on them.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 12, 2020, 11:34:13 am
The Canal and Rivers Trust are asking people to report anyone fishing on canals to the police and the Environment Agency.

There's an article here from July 2019:
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/fishing/related-articles/the-fisheries-and-angling-team/reporting-people-taking-fish-away-from-canals-and-stillwaters

But - what bonjoy points out above... 👆

EDIT: Just read Stu's post instead.

How do you get there, and from how far away is reasonable to travel (bearing in mind that travel for exercise is currently being discouraged)? What would you expect at the honey pot locations (for instance Longridge, Malham and Kilnsey; i.e. the places where people can't even park sensibly on a busy day)?

I'd be very unconvinced that as a group we'd cover ourselves in glory even if members of this parish are skilled in the dark art of esoteric lowball bouldering.

It's not that I disagree and think there's inherently more risk in Bonjoy et al. going somewhere Monkey Boy made look good on a video compared with me going out on two wheels, I just don't see how you can do that within the guidance issued and I have little faith that the majority wouldn't end up at Stanage (probably from far and wide).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: RobinB on April 12, 2020, 12:23:29 pm
Agree with the above points - I think that the risk of calling out the emergency services whether road cycling or lowball bouldering are similarly low. However, the key point that Stu makes above is how you get there. As soon as you need to get in a car to get somewhere, the risk increases (stopping at petrol stations etc etc). Also, as Paul suggests, the inevitable result of allowing bouldering would be groups of people gathering at popular locations such as Stanage planation.
On a more positive note, one of the impacts of having less cars on the road is that some of the people that seem to be getting out on 2 wheels are (what I assume to be) small family groups including younger kids.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 12, 2020, 12:42:58 pm
However, the key point that Stu makes above is how you get there.

But it's ok for a minister to drive 40miles to drop groceries off at his parents, even though their neighbours were already doing that?  :-\

Pete - no doubt it's a tough job, but I'm not comfortable with the police being able to decide that walking is valid but yoga isn't, cycling is valid but front rolls aren't. Just lock everyone the fuck down, get it over with quicker, and let's stop pretending that running is somehow more valid or less dangerous than sunbathing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 12, 2020, 12:47:36 pm
But it's ok for a minister to drive 40miles to drop groceries off at his parents, even though their neighbours were already doing that?  :-\

Alex! I expect better from you than this lame what-abouttery. Who is suggesting this is ok?

The police have got a shitty stick here no doubt, but they should enforce the law, not policy. It’s fine to have a public debate about whether yoga is ok, but as long as its exercise the police should allow it to go on. Hard to argue sunbathing is exercise though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 12, 2020, 12:59:40 pm
Gov and police suggested it was ok. We're prob getting crossed wires on some of this as there's two parallel debates - one on what's moral/sensible and one on what's legal/guided
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 12, 2020, 01:11:41 pm
The 'as long as it's exercise' logic doesn't work though does it? Bouldering is exercise.

It's as if the government have for a laugh written a koan as legislation for us to ponder. 'Exercise is essential but there is no essential exercise'.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 12, 2020, 01:27:02 pm
The Canal and Rivers Trust are asking people to report anyone fishing on canals to the police and the Environment Agency.

There's an article here from July 2019:
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/fishing/related-articles/the-fisheries-and-angling-team/reporting-people-taking-fish-away-from-canals-and-stillwaters

That article is specifically about people catching fish and taking them away, which you're not allowed to do in any case. We're talking here about people who might be fishing during lockdown and catching and releasing. This is not allowed under the law, given that I don't think many people would agree that fishing constitutes exercise, but is it really something that the police should be alerted to or something that people should be shamed for? It's an activity that is incredibly low risk in terms of injury and doesn't involve any risk of viral spread. But for people who enjoy it it's a very mindful, meditative pastime - surely just the sort of thing that people should carry on doing?

We went on a walk around the neighbourhood yesterday and I took a net and sample tray out so we could do something fun with our two year old. We pass a little stream which is very clean and aerated. Did a little kick sample and tipped it into the tray. Behold! Freshwater shrimp, caddisfly larvae, stonefly larvae, leeches, etc etc. Kept a 2 year old entertained for 45 minutes and we were out of the way of everyone. Hardly likely to encourage a spate of inappropriate behaviour in people who passed and saw us. Yet there was a comment on the Twitter thread that Duncan linked yesterday where the police had moved on a family because their 2 year old was doing "roly polys" in the park. So far, so stupid - what shocked me the most was the legion of people weighing in to say how appalling it was that this behaviour had been allowed to take place.

Many many people out there (not necessarily UKB members), of all classes and demographics, who seem to think that the only way to avoid being an "utter fucking wankstain" is to stay at home and be as miserable as possible, preferably while scouring social media for people to have a go at for committing the sin of having fun.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on April 12, 2020, 01:40:37 pm
for people who enjoy it it's a very mindful, meditative pastime

Like yoga only harder to do from home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 12, 2020, 01:47:55 pm
Many many people out there (not necessarily UKB members), of all classes and demographics, who seem to think that the only way to avoid being an "utter fucking wankstain" is to stay at home and be as miserable as possible, preferably while scouring social media for people to have a go at for committing the sin of having fun.

They're all probably anti bolts as well. Wankers. (Except JB)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 12, 2020, 02:14:53 pm
The Canal and Rivers Trust are asking people to report anyone fishing on canals to the police and the Environment Agency.

Link to your original complaint then please?

Looking at their Twitter account:
https://twitter.com/CanalRiverTrust/status/1242782609631072261?s=20
https://twitter.com/CanalRiverTrust/status/1242748091838717953?s=20
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 12, 2020, 02:45:22 pm
Just lock everyone the fuck down, get it over with quicker, and let's stop pretending that running is somehow more valid or less dangerous than sunbathing.

Barrows you have a good point there. And that cuts to the issue - by allowing exercise - it means that definition is open to interpretation. Which is further muddied by ministers saying it’s good for people to go and get some fresh air.

Which is why people go and sit in the sun in a park! From a disease transference point of view - people spaced 2-3 m apart in a park sat on their arse are less of a problem than a stream of heavily breathing runners going along paths.

Will. You’re fortunate you have somewhere that quiet to take your nipper to look at stuff in a stream.
 
On Thursday I was kicked out of a deserted (large) car park section of an outpatients hospital 2 min from home - where Our lad was scootering up and down.... parks are busy with people - even pavements are busy with sweaty millennials  working off some hormones.

I’ve gone out for an evening walk a couple of times - but stopped now - it feels more stressful avoiding people than just staying at home and doing some TV HIIT or playing on my board.

I wish for somewhere with less people.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 12, 2020, 02:58:13 pm
Many many people out there (not necessarily UKB members), of all classes and demographics, who seem to think that the only way to avoid being an "utter fucking wankstain" is to stay at home and be as miserable as possible, preferably while scouring social media for people to have a go at for committing the sin of having fun.

They're all probably anti bolts as well. Wankers. (Except JB)


I’m guessing, from this comment, you didn’t grow up ina small village did you Will?
Without the social media (replaced by, watching through net curtains and muttered conversation during Wednesday Coffee Morning in the Hall) your described individual fits everybody over the age of 50 in a 1970’s Cornish village...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 12, 2020, 04:36:15 pm
I haven't been out climbing any more than the most ardent stay at home nazi, I was making a point about justifications.
Climbers have accepted (through varying levels of gritted teeth) that we wont go climbing under lockdown. For many the principal reason is not to avoid spreading CV or risking use of emergency services, as for quite a few people these can be reduced to the point where they are irrelevant compared to all other non proscribed activities, including cycling. What's left is towing the line to avoid weakening the general consensus and resolve of everyone else. So it is very galling when cyclist come on a climbing forum and outline the sketchy justification for them treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanza. When we all know the soul reason they're cycling is that the govt wording gives them enough leeway to claim special exemption from the extreme level of risk assessment other outdoor activities are subject to.

Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on. Biking to a boulder not requiring a pad is a whole different can of worms I guess.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 12, 2020, 04:57:27 pm
Had the government's announcement been "exercise, for example walking or a run", the activity would be no less legal, but the good people of the country would be setting wires across the roads at neck height.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 12, 2020, 05:23:47 pm

Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on.

It’s this bit that needs careful unpacking. Lots of people are within short walking distance of a crag, but what would be the effect on transmission if half of sheffield’s climbers rocked up at bell hagg?

In order to disperse the climbing population widely amongst outdoor venues requires people to travel, simple as.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 12, 2020, 05:32:10 pm
Jon I don't disagree with what your saying but its a bit insensitive to associate the word nazi with those saying we should stay at home. Nothing else to add as Stu is basically summing up my thoughts.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 12, 2020, 05:35:45 pm
To be clearer. If we could all go bouldering without travelling to do so, and if we could be confident of being the only people at the crag, I’d be pretty happy about everyone climbing. I reckon the minor transmission risk of other people using the holds before would easily be handled with hand wipes.

The problem is that isn’t possible. Both the IFs in the paragraph fail if any number of us head out.

The same simply isn’t true of road cyclists, they can stay well isolated and don’t need to travel to bike. More power to them I say, though I can understand it sticking in people’s throats that someone else gets to do their hobby and we don’t.

Edited to say if you can fulfil the two criteria in the first para I’d say knock yourself out, but maybe keep it to yourself ;-)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 12, 2020, 05:44:17 pm
The alternative view is that going out and smashing a 50km bike ride is travelling*. The petrol station argument is a bit of a non-starter as you can just fill up locally anyway - it's less interaction and risk than buying beer. So then it's the safety argument, which means - to my mind - you'd need to demonstrate that cycling is less dangerous than driving, in current road conditions, for the travelling argument to hold much weight in a world where cycling is ok. Or the cyclists just accept that their argument is at least 50% bollocks, but who gives a fuck because we're all hypocritical dicks anyway, you'll be able to cycle unless we go full lockdown, and right/wrong probably doesn't exist anyway.

Obviously this doesn't address the meeting people at the crag argument, which takes us back to where we started: doing sensible shit is fine, but people aren't sensible, so it's much better to just ban the fuck out of everything, drop R lower, and have a shorter lockdown.

*not if you just go around the block 200 times obviously, but then you'll be so dizzy that it will defo be dangerous

My earlier caveat applies as ever: "as for everyone else, that's just some shit I made up based on nothing"
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 12, 2020, 05:55:11 pm
So it is very galling when cyclist come on a climbing forum and outline the sketchy justification for them treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanza.

Because nobody could possibly partake in both?

The word 'bonanza' is also a stretch; it's a bonanza in the context that you're less likely to get squished by something made of metal weighing in at around 1000kg plus.

To be clearer. If we could all go bouldering without travelling to do so, and if we could be confident of being the only people at the crag, I’d be pretty happy about everyone climbing. I reckon the minor transmission risk of other people using the holds before would easily be handled with hand wipes.

The problem is that isn’t possible. Both the IFs in the paragraph fail if any number of us head out.

The same simply isn’t true of road cyclists, they can stay well isolated and don’t need to travel to bike. More power to them I say, though I can understand it sticking in people’s throats that someone else gets to do their hobby and we don’t.

Edited to say if you can fulfil the two criteria in the first para I’d say knock yourself out, but maybe keep it to yourself ;-)

If you want an idea of how isolated, yesterday's ride saw two people come past us. One looked like a bottle of Alpecin and went past at a pace I couldn't fathom. The most interaction I had was with an escaped sheep.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 12, 2020, 06:04:36 pm
Fair point about travelling Alex. To me the 30min ride round dam flask from my house felt like the most isolated thing I’ve done since lockdown, but who knows how it looks to the lower Bradfield residents who see people cycling through all day?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: RobinB on April 12, 2020, 06:31:56 pm
Quote
treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanza
I don't think (or would hope) that anybody is treating this as a cycling bonanza Jon. Rather, just thankful that there is a way of getting out of the house for an hour or so to get some fresh air.
Hope you enjoyed your ride around Damflask Stu - I was in that area today but kept to the more remote roads around Ughill etc for exactly the reasons you mention re Bradfield residents and how they might perceive cyclists in the current situation. As per Paul's experience, I think I saw a few other cyclists, some sheep and the obligatory black Audi doing about 120 mph on the (almost) traffic free roads
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: chris j on April 12, 2020, 08:01:52 pm
Quote
treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanza
I don't think (or would hope) that anybody is treating this as a cycling bonanza

I don't think Ryan Evans has quite the same thought process. 47 hours out on the bike this week...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-lockdown-cyclists-stretch-daily-bike-ride-to-200-miles-g0lcg7hzg?shareToken=1188b2e187d08aaf5de789d9be8acc61
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 12, 2020, 08:37:16 pm
I just want to chip in with: you’re all a bunch of Peak-centric people the way you’re talking on this thread.
I have the mythical circumstances Stu mentions. I can boulder away, not be seen by the public, not share the crag with any others, and it’s a close walk. There’ll be others in similar circumstances. The decisions most people are expressing on this thread are peak-based decisions or applicable to other ‘populated areas’ (and I agree with you - you shouldn’t be seen setting an example); but don’t reflect the wider world outside those areas where population of climbers is sparser.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 12, 2020, 08:39:33 pm
Pete - geographically they may not represent the wider world - but it does represent the wider climbing population.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 12, 2020, 08:42:49 pm
The wider climbing population is irrelevant if you have the circumstances Stu mentions. What someone in Manchester thinks is irrelevant to what someone in Wales thinks about the crag just down the road that no one uses. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 12, 2020, 08:51:14 pm

Edited to say if you can fulfil the two criteria in the first para I’d say knock yourself out, but maybe keep it to yourself ;-)

Think you missed this bit Pete 😂
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 12, 2020, 08:57:28 pm
Yeah fair enough, just gets a bit annoying reading people saying climbing is irresponsible when really all they’re commenting on is their own specific circumstances in the peak or a.n.other populated English area that you’re unlucky enough to live in (tongue firmly in cheek). You’re not the be-all of climbing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 12, 2020, 09:35:46 pm
The wider climbing population is irrelevant if you have the circumstances Stu mentions. What someone in Manchester thinks is irrelevant to what someone in Wales thinks about the crag just down the road that no one uses.

My point was - that I'd argue (and I think I'm right) that the wider climbing population (most of them) has to travel (as in get in a car) to go climbing... even in Sheffield. Not of course if you're that bloke in the strava group who does 200mile bike rides :D
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 12, 2020, 09:48:02 pm
200 miles what a light weight, there’s a bloke in Flanders who’s done a 1000K ride.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 12, 2020, 10:24:53 pm
We can all get pretty angry and jealous understandably, if we can't do what we love doing and others seem to be managing to have a great time.

My opinion is that if anyone's genuinely having a great time at the moment, they are either in denial, or a psychopath.

I imagine most people will have developed their own coping strategies for enabling them to cope with a deeply stressful and horrible experience for more or less everyone in all seriously affected countries. It's difficult to see how 200km bike rides are a just about coping strategy, and I wonder how he finds enough food in the shops to fuel that kind of effort, perhaps that's where all the pasta in the country has gone?
Frankly I'm pretty jealous of people who are really into playstation or Xbox, or painting those figures for tabletop games. They are probably coping better!

I went for a road run at about half 7 this morning which, on Easter Sunday was pretty bloody isolated, and made me feel slightly better about working for the rest of the day. Part of me agrees with Alex that we should go full style total lockdown and potential imprisonment for anyone breaking it to get it over with, but that would be truly grim. I hope we can get through it without that sort of thing. Stay safe everyone.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: moose on April 12, 2020, 10:30:02 pm
Arguments about relative risks of bouldering and cycling are this:

https://twitter.com/Michael1979/status/1249058146091401218?s=09[img (https://twitter.com/Michael1979/status/1249058146091401218?s=09[img)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 12, 2020, 10:34:14 pm
We can all get pretty angry and jealous understandably, if we can't do what we love doing and others seem to be managing to have a great time.

My opinion is that if anyone's genuinely having a great time at the moment, they are either in denial, or a psychopath.

I imagine most people will have developed their own coping strategies for enabling them to cope with a deeply stressful and horrible experience for more or less everyone in all seriously affected countries. Frankly I'm pretty jealous of people who are really into playstation or Xbox, or painting those figures for tabletop games. They are probably coping better!
I did 84.98 miles on my bike on Friday, I can’t say for the last 30 miles I was having a great time.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 12, 2020, 10:53:47 pm

Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on.

It’s this bit that needs careful unpacking. Lots of people are within short walking distance of a crag, but what would be the effect on transmission if half of sheffield’s climbers rocked up at bell hagg?
Strawman. The effect would be much the same as half of Sheffield's cycling population going out in one big peleton. The people I had in mind live in various location's mostly other than Sheffield.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Nike Air on April 12, 2020, 10:57:18 pm
Arguments about relative risks of bouldering and cycling are this:

https://twitter.com/Michael1979/status/1249058146091401218?s=09[img (https://twitter.com/Michael1979/status/1249058146091401218?s=09[img)

Had me in stitches. Thanks for posting that
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 12, 2020, 10:58:01 pm
Jon I don't disagree with what your saying but its a bit insensitive to associate the word nazi with those saying we should stay at home. Nothing else to add as Stu is basically summing up my thoughts.
Fair enough, it was meant tongue in cheek and aimed at the more hysterical pitchfork wielding end of a general continuum I also place myself on. But you're right, a bad choice of phrase in retrospect.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 12, 2020, 11:11:51 pm
So it is very galling when cyclist come on a climbing forum and outline the sketchy justification for them treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanza.

Because nobody could possibly partake in both?

The word 'bonanza' is also a stretch; it's a bonanza in the context that you're less likely to get squished by something made of metal weighing in at around 1000kg
I could have been clearer but I don't think I implied mutual exclusivity.
It looks like a cycling bonanza when I look out at Baslow Rd, Totley.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 12, 2020, 11:17:11 pm
Quote
treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanza
I don't think (or would hope) that anybody is treating this as a cycling bonanza Jon. Rather, just thankful that there is a way of getting out of the house for an hour or so to get some fresh air.
I'm genuinely glad you're finding an enjoyable outlet Robin. Sorry about molesting your original post to make a point.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 13, 2020, 07:33:37 am
Jon I don't disagree with what your saying but its a bit insensitive to associate the word nazi with those saying we should stay at home. Nothing else to add as Stu is basically summing up my thoughts.
Fair enough, it was meant tongue in cheek and aimed at the more hysterical pitchfork wielding end of a general continuum I also place myself on. But you're right, a bad choice of phrase in retrospect.

Pitchfork wielding (properly weighted) is a legitimate form of exercise, so you should be alright as long as you don’t drive to Stanage to partake.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 13, 2020, 07:37:28 am
Pitchfork wielding (properly weighted) is a legitimate form of exercise, so you should be alright as long as you don’t drive to Stanage to partake.

But if carried on a bike it might cross over into jousting non?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 13, 2020, 07:52:40 am
Pitchfork wielding (properly weighted) is a legitimate form of exercise, so you should be alright as long as you don’t drive to Stanage to partake.

But if carried on a bike it might cross over into jousting non?

I’m disappointed Tom.

Cycling with one hand would be irresponsible and dangerous during these difficult times.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 13, 2020, 08:42:00 am

Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on.

It’s this bit that needs careful unpacking. Lots of people are within short walking distance of a crag, but what would be the effect on transmission if half of sheffield’s climbers rocked up at bell hagg?
Strawman. The effect would be much the same as half of Sheffield's cycling population going out in one big peleton. The people I had in mind live in various location's mostly other than Sheffield.

Then I think you phrased it badly. A few climbers are lucky enough to be in that position. The overwhelming majority of climbers live in cities and are not. I don’t think we disagree, actually.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 13, 2020, 08:45:47 am
With drop handlebars I find I can nestle the handle of the pitchfork next to the stem - and cradle the bottom (non pointy) end of the handle just above my hip wedged to my side with my elbow. Maintaining at all times two hands on the handlebars.

I’m fucked if I want to adjust my rapha while in this position though.

Carbon fibre pitchfork handle with titanium spikes of course.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: remus on April 13, 2020, 09:09:57 am
Carbon fibre pitchfork handle with titanium spikes of course.

Have you tried the aero-caps for the tip? I managed to save 2 watts when I added mine.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 13, 2020, 09:33:29 am
Carbon fibre pitchfork handle with titanium spikes of course.

Have you tried the aero-caps for the tip? I managed to save 2 watts when I added mine.

Oooh... website please!!! 👏👏
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 13, 2020, 09:35:33 am
If it didn't make me angry and depressed we could have a "bringing out the worst in people" thread.

Lagers reported on Twitter that one of his neighbours made biscuits for the street. One of the neighbors anonymously reported them to the authorities. To which Gulag should they be dispatched?

We collected a prescription for one of our elderly neighbours and they made us a crumble. Now I'm struggling to pick which lamppost her corpse would hang most forebodingly from.

And yesterday our little girl fell down the steps at the front of our house which was quite a scare. Me and my wife got there seconds later to scrape her up, but it hadn't stopped our 80+ year old neighbour from vaulting the garden wall and running full pelt across the garden to get to her. It was hard to see the police attack dogs rip Barbara limb from limb, but the bitch deserved it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 13, 2020, 09:43:01 am
Start one then Will.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 13, 2020, 09:49:21 am
My housemate hid 15 little chocolate eggs around the house yesterday, for me to hunt out and enjoy. Delightful fun.


Under enhanced interrogation, in this case using the cage over their head and rat technique that we perfected during foot & mouth disease, they admitted to not cleaning the wrappers of the chocolate treats with a disinfectant wipe when they got home from the shop. They now realise how wrong they were.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 13, 2020, 09:59:38 am
Start one then Will.

Isn’t that already what we are doing?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 13, 2020, 10:24:15 am

Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on.

It’s this bit that needs careful unpacking. Lots of people are within short walking distance of a crag, but what would be the effect on transmission if half of sheffield’s climbers rocked up at bell hagg?
Strawman. The effect would be much the same as half of Sheffield's cycling population going out in one big peleton. The people I had in mind live in various location's mostly other than Sheffield.

Then I think you phrased it badly. A few climbers are lucky enough to be in that position. The overwhelming majority of climbers live in cities and are not. I don’t think we disagree, actually.
Yeah, that's a much better way to put it. Wish I was among this lucky minority.

Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds. These are not intrinsic to the sport. Most of the climbing I do at this time of year is on holds no one has pulled on, often at places where I don't see other people let alone climbers. There is a hell of a lot of random rock in the peak alone to spread out over.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 13, 2020, 10:31:42 am
Start one then Will.

Isn’t that already what we are doing?

I thought it might be suitably ironic for Will to start a thread about bringing out the worst in people :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 13, 2020, 11:02:40 am
Yeah fair enough, just gets a bit annoying reading people saying climbing is irresponsible when really all they’re commenting on is their own specific circumstances in the peak or a.n.other populated English area that you’re unlucky enough to live in (tongue firmly in cheek). You’re not the be-all of climbing.

Just you and me then Pete. DM me clips of your sick sends yeah?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 13, 2020, 11:26:27 am
Plenty of fortunate people around the UK who I think needn’t stay away from their nearby obscure and discreet and unused lump of rock just because the guidance from BMC (rightly) is ‘don’t climb’ and climbers in busier areas have (rightly) chosen to not climb.
Like bonjoy I wonder about the powers that be attitudes toward climbing and access in the future, if climbing is blanket assumed to be something frowned-upon now. Of course I’m not claiming that my primary concern is altruistically fighting for future access rights - like some Kinder mass trespass for obscure lowball boulder traverses. My primary concern is enjoying being outside in the sun keeping fit traversing around on a little local obscure bit of rock while relishing the solitude, and doing no harm to anyone in the process. But doing what I think is right in principle does also inform my behaviour.
Yes it’s a bit provocative debating the point on here but at least it’s something worth being provocative about.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on April 13, 2020, 11:30:33 am

Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds. These are not intrinsic to the sport.

+1 this and pete

My feeling as well though much better put.

The community solidarity aspect has been a strange one. People are  happy to take in to account circumstances for running and cycling. Ie "just went for a run and barely saw a soul, but then I live on Unst". Yet the discussion in climbing has been much more based around enduring this together as many can't access crags. I liked the principle but feels like its backfired a bit in some of the reactions we've seen.

Again I'm feeling conflicted arguing the point publicly... But the discussion is good to have.


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on April 13, 2020, 12:01:55 pm
Personally I really can see little issue with someone going climbing locally in an isolated little spot by themselves if they can walk there and observe social distancing. I was fairly uneasy about the blanket ban at the time and I do think a more nuanced approach would be better if difficult to decide on what is okay and not.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 13, 2020, 12:59:23 pm
The solidarity argument is clearly bogus. In that case, nobody with a board or fingerboard or TRX or pull up bar or Powerball or anything should be using it because there are some who haven't got one.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on April 13, 2020, 01:06:18 pm
Certainly if I lived within walking distance of a quiet out if the way bouldering crag I would definitely be there. Probably wouldn’t post it on Facebook etc but really can’t see an issue if it’s on the quiet
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 13, 2020, 01:43:58 pm
The solidarity argument is clearly bogus. In that case, nobody with a board or fingerboard or TRX or pull up bar or Powerball or anything should be using it because there are some who haven't got one.

Dont agree with that. Fingerboards are not a community resource in the way that crags are. Not to mention that anyone can buy one. I cant order a crag to my front door!

I dont think the solidarity point is all that relevant anyway because as Stu has said, there arent *that* many people who fit the profile of having a very quiet crag nearby where they are guaranteed to be alone. If you're lucky enough to be in that position then i think the consensus is feel free if you're happy with it, no?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 13, 2020, 02:04:19 pm
People are  happy to take in to account circumstances for running and cycling. Ie "just went for a run and barely saw a soul, but then I live on Unst".

I'm going to point back at this post by Stu:

To be clearer. If we could all go bouldering without travelling to do so, and if we could be confident of being the only people at the crag, I’d be pretty happy about everyone climbing. I reckon the minor transmission risk of other people using the holds before would easily be handled with hand wipes.

The problem is that isn’t possible. Both the IFs in the paragraph fail if any number of us head out.

The same simply isn’t true of road cyclists, they can stay well isolated and don’t need to travel to bike. More power to them I say, though I can understand it sticking in people’s throats that someone else gets to do their hobby and we don’t.

Edited to say if you can fulfil the two criteria in the first para I’d say knock yourself out, but maybe keep it to yourself ;-)

and this from British Cycling:
Quote
The decision has been taken based on Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s caution against unnecessary travel and contact with others, to take the necessary steps to protect the health and wellbeing of riders, officials, volunteers and spectators, and alleviate the risk of an additional burden on the emergency services at what is a hugely testing time.

Source: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200317-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-has-suspended-all-of-its-sanctioned--cycling-activities--initially-until-April-30--0

Road.cc have also been running articles that can be paraphrased as "the weather looks nice this weekend, don't be a dickhead". The circumstances you reference apply to the majority, don't they*?

It looks like a cycling bonanza when I look out at Baslow Rd, Totley.

*if the point being made is that within cities, it's a bit farcical I've genuinely missed that until now and I could understand that causing frustration.

Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds.

Conversely, within the scope of Yorks. sportclimbing, where Parish Councils may not entirely like climbers, I think as a group we're looking fairly well behaved aren't we?

I get your concerns about how we begin to return to normality (and the added frustration that you venture to places most others don't) and I suspect something along the lines of the TPTB releasing wishy relaxation statements and those that fit the 'Pete +1' demographic starting to venture out, with both sides getting it wrong to a certain degree (pitchfork/keyboard warriors and climbers alike). I'd be interested to know how you feel it may be best handled?

If it didn't make me angry and depressed we could have a "bringing out the worst in people" thread.

A link would suffice. I also couldn't find the LRR post (perhaps I missed it in the 138 replies or maybe it's been deleted?) referenced earlier to see if it was genuine or like most on there, not entirely serious!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 13, 2020, 02:12:07 pm
For LRR, I'm not sure if anyone did make a report, but I definitely saw someone saying to send the photo to the police.

For the Canal and River Trust it is buried in replies to comments on one of their Facebook posts. The blue ticked profile asked witnesses to report fishing on the canal to the police and EA.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 13, 2020, 02:15:58 pm
Just nipped out for a bit of a walk. https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1249657562057891845?s=21
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 13, 2020, 02:19:56 pm
Just nipped out for a bit of a walk. https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1249657562057891845?s=21

To save people clicking

Quote
Walkers have been urged not to take to the hills during the lockdown after 18 paramedics and mountain rescuers were required to help a woman who sustained a leg injury on moorland over the Easter weekend.

The woman was treated at the scene at Blackstone Edge near Littleborough in Greater Manchester on Saturday night during an operation that lasted for three hours and 15 minutes.

Oldham mountain rescue team (OMRT) said its volunteers had been asked by North West ambulance service to assist after the walker sustained a lower leg injury while “out enjoying the Easter sun”.

She was carried by stretcher to the team’s Land Rover and driven to a roadside where she was transferred to an ambulance.

The parallel to what could happen to anyone out bouldering is obvious... etc.. etc.. etc..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 13, 2020, 02:33:33 pm
As others have pointed out, the number of A&E visits for DIY injuries has no doubt increased. Or general accidents around the home.

Except that doesn’t fit the media’s narrative.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 13, 2020, 03:16:46 pm
I'm not sure arguing the toss about everything really helps anyone, climbing is clearly not ok if you're driving to it for the moment. If you can walk somewhere from home to boulder where you're guaranteed not to see a soul, great, but probably best not to tell the thousands of people who that will irritate and tempt those with fewer morals to just drive a short distance or some such excuse.

Tom I've been out on my bike a few times recently and not noticed anything bonanza like. There are probably more cyclists than cars out in Derbyshire but that's not saying much. Most of the cars I saw the other day were police or rangers checking car parks.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 13, 2020, 03:22:56 pm
As others have pointed out, the number of A&E visits for DIY injuries has no doubt increased. Or general accidents around the home.

Climbers out climbing are probably more safe than climbers building woodies.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 13, 2020, 03:35:29 pm
On Woodies, you meant on Woodies.

I just had to be carried away from training, by my 14 year old daughter, because something hamstringy went “sclurrop-pop”, I went “glurrr-awww-ffuuucck-cant-buggery-shit”, whilst heel hooking.

One hand typing whilst icepack holding, right now.

Not a fucking chance I could have walked off any crag like this.

PS:
My kids have a very wide vocabulary.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 13, 2020, 03:53:15 pm
Also, the argument is moving beyond any one “community”.

There are plenty of Pitchfork wielders prepared to point their ire at people exercising, regardless of Gov guidelines..,

 https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/ridiculous-sign-trying-stop-cyclists-18084476 (https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/ridiculous-sign-trying-stop-cyclists-18084476)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 13, 2020, 04:32:25 pm
That's the training gods striking you down for heel-hooking on a board. :spank:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 13, 2020, 04:41:10 pm
As others have pointed out, the number of A&E visits for DIY injuries has no doubt increased. Or general accidents around the home.

Climbers out climbing are probably more safe than climbers building woodies.

Exactly. I know this is a bouldering forum but some people’s attitude to risk on here strikes me as very odd. I guess you can’t untangle it from the whole ‘weirdness’ of this Lockdown situation.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 13, 2020, 05:30:35 pm
I'm not sure arguing the toss about everything really helps anyone, climbing is clearly not ok if you're driving to it for the moment.

None of any of the discussion on any of this help anyone really, I just like poking holes in things to see how much they stand up to scrutiny. Right now I don't think that cyclists' arguments that cycling is particularly morally/logically acceptable vs bouldering and travel stand up to much scrutiny.

Here's 5 min of stats research on hospital admissions*:
- Incidents involving motorised transport (excl. trains) caused ~2.8% of hospital admissions
- Incidents involving cars, pick-ups or vans caused ~2.0% of hospital admissions
- Incidents involving cyclists caused ~1.2% of hospital admissions (some overlap with the above obviously)
- For cyclists, ~16% of admissions were due to collision with motorised vehicles, ~9% due to collisions with other stuff, ~ 65% "noncollision transport accident", ~9% unknown cause.

Clearly some of those noncollision accidents may be attributable to drivers of motorised vehicles but where the cyclist bailed out into the verge etc - I guess that would be recorded in this category. At a rough guess, let's assign unknown and noncollision in proportion with the other categories' existing data, which would imply as a rough guess that ~ 64% involve motorised vehicles and ~34% don't. From my earlier source, cycling is ~15-40x more dangerous per km than car driving. Accounting for the fact that only 34% of accidents can count as the rest involve cars (based on our above est), this would make cycling ~5-14x more dangerous than driving per km. Even if you only take the 16% that are definitely** not involving cars, then you still get 2.4-6.4x more dangerous per km.

So if a 50km bike ride is ok, that would make a 120-320km round trip drive acceptable at minimum. You'd need to adjust for risk of injury during the activity at the other end, and long distances obvs have other issues around fuelling as discussed; also I didn't try to introduce a metric for severity of injury which may or may not affect the results.

Clearly this is a VERY rough few numbers I put together, to demo that "All of this is just internal risk assessments, usually based on no evidence", as I said 6 pages back. I'm not really arguing that we should be able to drive to climbing, or that cyclists should stop (I would keep doing it if it were what I'm into), just that cyclists should make peace with the fact that their position is probably really one based on government advice and not based on a strong moral/logical/statistical basis. I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.




*Taken from my analysis of this source, with the caveat that I know f all about what I'm looking at so may have made errors: https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/hospital-admitted-patient-care-activity/2017-18
-
**A car could have been involved, but not in the collision itself, but I'm just working with the categories available.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 13, 2020, 06:59:56 pm
Collectively, climbers can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday, imagine the chaos if all climbers were allowed to go climbing by car as long as they were sensible. At least with cycling they keep moving.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on April 13, 2020, 08:59:12 pm
Collectively, climbers can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday, imagine the chaos if all climbers were allowed to go climbing by car as long as they were sensible. At least with cycling they keep moving.

Agreed, the risk aspect is nowhere near the main factor here.  The issue with climbing is similar to that with sunbathing in parks - for one couple to go to sun bathe in a quiet park looks fine, but obviously hundreds of other people also want to do the same and then social distancing is out of the window.   

Cycling is naturally pretty socially distanced, there's thousands of miles of roads out there - don't think this justifies people going for long distance rides across the peak district etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 13, 2020, 09:24:45 pm
Thing is, I see the same discussions going on online everywhere; mountain bikers, road bikers, cyclists, hill runners, surfers, back-country skiers, paddleboarders. I'm sure if I looked, the same would be said by golfers, fishermen, birdwatchers, scuba divers, kite surfers, bog snorkellers, mud wrestlers all of whom believe that at a certain level what they are doing is safer than cycling.

Government statement would eventually end up like "what have the Romans done for us".

"You can go out for a run, walk or cycle from your home once a day, except if you go lowball bouldering, fishing from beach above high tide mark, surfing in waves no more than 3 feet, kiteboarding in less than 5 knots" etc etc
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 13, 2020, 09:58:43 pm
Collectively, the Raven Tor demographic can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday...
Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 13, 2020, 10:05:00 pm
Collectively, the Raven Tor demographic can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday...
Fixed that for you.

That's my point. Amongst the many sensible climbers there will always be a sizeable minority that don't act sensibly. And they are not confined just to those that go to the tor.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 13, 2020, 10:47:08 pm

It looks like a cycling bonanza when I look out at Baslow Rd, Totley.

*if the point being made is that within cities, it's a bit farcical I've genuinely missed that until now and I could understand that causing frustration.

Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds.

Conversely, within the scope of Yorks. sportclimbing, where Parish Councils may not entirely like climbers, I think as a group we're looking fairly well behaved aren't we?

I get your concerns about how we begin to return to normality (and the added frustration that you venture to places most others don't) and I suspect something along the lines of the TPTB releasing wishy relaxation statements and those that fit the 'Pete +1' demographic starting to venture out, with both sides getting it wrong to a certain degree (pitchfork/keyboard warriors and climbers alike). I'd be interested to know how you feel it may be best
Baslow rd is one of the main exit points from the city into the Peak. It goes through Totley where I live which is the last urban area before open moors.
It's pretty busy with cyclists. Quite a few don't look like regular cyclists to put it politely. Good on them for getting some exercise, but I'd dispute they represent a lower risk of an emergency services call out than our hypothetical lowball traversist.
General sour grapes aside, my beef is not with cycling, it's as Barrow's said, with cyclists arguing it's based on intrinsic lower risk, rather than arbitrary political factors.
I totally agree that sport crags, especially high profile ones in full public view had to be closed, and seen to be done so swiftly and willingly by climbers. Not least because they quite probably do represent a significant risk of CV spread. And it's a good look that we did that.
How to unwind the lockdown? It's a big question, but I might as well throw a few thought t it.I think compared to indoor sports, office jobs, public transport, school, pubs, cinemas etc, outdoor activities  are mostly lower/low risk and hence should be the first areas of life to be derestricted. This would also be a huge and much needed physical and mental health boost to a lockdown weary populace.
I think mask wearing should be compulsory when outside the home until it is clear the CV waves/risk has passed. Home made is fine.
Even after travel is allowed and currently closed areas are opened, social distancing measures should be maintained for an indefinite period.

Or more radically, as I suggested a while back - If overcrowding is a major concern, why not allocate people days when they are free to travel to the countryside? Either you choose, or are allocated two days of the week (obviously keyworker families get sat-sun). For people on furlough the weekend is pretty meaningless at the moment, especially with kids not at school.
Another radical thought, suspend trespass laws and treat all land (with a few basic rules and exceptions) as access land.
Reduce car park capacity, cone off every other bay at big carparks.
Encourage/insist people to use this app which alerts the user to the proximity of possibly infectious  individuals. Caveat: I know little of the detail regards this, either how effective it is, or what downsides are attached.
That's a start anyway.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 13, 2020, 10:53:48 pm
For LRR, I'm not sure if anyone did make a report, but I definitely saw someone saying to send the photo to the police.

For the Canal and River Trust it is buried in replies to comments on one of their Facebook posts. The blue ticked profile asked witnesses to report fishing on the canal to the police and EA.

Come on Will, if Mr. J. Worth is giving an asset owner a tough time on social media about another member of the public doing something they feel they oughtn't under the new guidance/laws what do you expect the employee to do (in the context of the various policies and articles I've linked)? Perhaps respond with a tumbleweed GIF  :tumble:? Or ask them if they've not got anything better to worry about? Most likely they're going to ask them to take it up with the correct body if they feel so inclined.

I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.

You're focusing on one aspect (risk) and missing the point that people out on their bikes are taking a form of exercise which allows for SD, whereas it's unlikely many people will be getting in their car to drive solely in a loop (without leaving said vehicle) before returning home (and of course that driving in a loop has very little exercise value unless it's sat in the passenger seat of Shark's car where the elevated heart rate might earn you a few calories).

With respect to another part of your post, and in the hope that it'll be a lighthearted look into a moment of my own stupidity for everyone to chuckle at, I got it really wrong a year or so ago having taken insufficient food on a ride, I felt like utter shit nearing the end where there's a steep downhill, a slight bend and then a steep uphill (high hedges throughout). I was determined not to need to pedal any more than necessary and tucked onto my frame like a knob and aimed to cut the bend for my own gain only to find out there was a combine harvester coming and I had to abandon onto the verge/into a hedge. I really should've learnt by now (and it's amazing how poor decision making can get when hungry/tired)! When I got home I had to sit on the floor of the bath running hot water over my legs whilst my long suffering wife fed me crisps. Of course she'd told me I had insufficient food before leaving the house!

Bonjoy - you've posted whilst I was typing; I'll reply tomorrow!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 14, 2020, 07:27:14 am
Seeing this this morning really pisssed me off. If some climbers are going to stick two fingers up to the rest of us or use the I live in a van excuse then they should at least have the decency to not spray.

I mean, why dont we all go out there? I could be there in 20 minutes.

https://youtu.be/0Kkpaog1RU4


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fatboyslimfast2 on April 14, 2020, 07:29:10 am
I can see 2 crags from my house, I can walk to a limestone one in 5 mins and a grit one in 25......interestingly even if I had the inclination I couldn't currently get a rock boot on seeing as I smashed my foot into the step ladder Im using to redecorate on the landing and judging by colour and shape broke my toe. Disinclined obvs to go to a and e Ive spent last 2 days hobbling around.  I didn't set out to have an accident, it was in my home so no one saw and I didn't need help.
I will be honest, a few weeks ago I was fairly hardline and Ive stayed away, as time has gone on Im wavering as to whether local (for me that is VERY important) low ball low risk stuff would be ok?  does that just open the gates and we would see people winging off the top crescent arete and having to be lifted off the crag as per normal bank holiday?
Like all things at this time its difficult !!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wood FT on April 14, 2020, 07:35:35 am
Seeing this this morning really pisssed me off. If some climbers are going to stick two fingers up to the rest of us or use the I live in a van excuse then they should at least have the decency to not spray.

I mean, why dont we all go out there? I could be there in 20 minutes.

https://youtu.be/0Kkpaog1RU4

Surely that video is trolling. Minus Ten Wall, Raven Tor....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fatboyslimfast2 on April 14, 2020, 07:41:12 am
'Seeing this this morning really pisssed me off. If some climbers are going to stick two fingers up to the rest of us or use the I live in a van excuse then they should at least have the decency to not spray.'

Interestingly I clocked him on Saturday morning in the Spar at Calver crossroads, so travel from outside to an area then do a little shopping just to spread stuff around a bit more into a small community shop.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 14, 2020, 07:47:04 am
I respect that some folk can just walk to a quiet crag. But please dont rub it in. This thing will last as long as people believe in it. Risk a £30 fine for a day out climbing on a quiet crag? Sure. Sign me up. We all have cars we could most of us easily get out. Plenty of roadside lime.

We've established on here that going climbing and not being a numpty isnt very dangerous at all. No worse than cycling for sure. The danger is that the peak district is rammed again and there are dozens of people at curbar and all the "not staying at home"ness that involves.

I will stay in so long as people dont spray the benefits of not staying in.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fatboyslimfast2 on April 14, 2020, 07:57:22 am
Murph I was just voicing how Im feeling, I haven't and Im not going to. The guy in the vid really pissed me off on Saturday as I knew he was going out and I believe he is one of the 2 vans currently in situ under raven tor.
Its not just climbers though, there a van lifer woman and her lapdog residing in the curbar gap lower parking bays for the last 3 weeks. from a sanitation point of view not good whatever your views
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 14, 2020, 08:04:59 am
Murph I was just voicing how Im feeling....
No, I totally get you fat boy. My rant was meant to no one in particular just putting down how I feel. I'm in totley and can get from front door to trackside in ten minutes.

Surely that video is trolling. Minus Ten Wall, Raven Tor....

Hadnt noticed. Even more angry now.  :rtfm: Mind you, it is a sort of mini minus.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 14, 2020, 08:33:00 am
I don't know all the details here. But I'm fairly sure that van life people were told to stay put. So if he was at Raven Tor when it kicked off then he's done the right thing to remain there.
I have no idea who the guy is and I've no idea how this video has been shared. If I upload something to YouTube is that spray? Or is it spray when I post it around social media? The only reason I'm aware of its existence is that Murph has decided to share it here.

Personally, if he lives at the Tor because he's made a lifestyle choice to live in three cubic metres of space and shit in a bucket then I wouldn't begrudge him a few perks.

How weak is people's personal resolve if they see someone else climbing and then cannot help but break the law to drive out of Sheffield to go climbing themselves? "Oh, Officer, I was abiding by the rules, but then I saw a video of somebody walking 20 seconds from their abode to climb some shit limestone and I couldn't cope with not having what they have."

What happens when you guys see somebody with a Ferrari?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on April 14, 2020, 08:41:29 am
I agree putting a vid out there of climbing at the moment seems unwise and I also don’t think the Tor is an appropriate choice of crag. I suspect it would be hard to explain the minimal risk and the exercise involved to a policeman.

However, in all honesty I really don’t have an issue with climbing outside if you can do it without drawing attention to yourself and without driving or breaking social distancing rules. I can’t climb without breaking the travel rules and therefore I can’t climb, however I harbor no bad feelings to anyone that can (apart from raging envy etc). If as a few of you describe you live close to crags and could get out I really don’t see why you don’t just do it on the quiet and enjoy yourself. I go out each day for quite a bit longer than the hour we are supposedly advised to do and sometimes I even go out twice in a day and it was not fully essential (except for my sanity!). However I don’t meet up with anyone and I am fairly certain I am at very low risk of transmission of the virus. I think we all just have to keep within the rules and accept that some people are more fortunate in where they live.

I feel much more aggrieved when I see clearly non essential work such as an extension being finished off by  firms of builders or see housing estates continuing to go up. That makes me feel personally that we are not all in it together and that some industries and businesses have only their own vested self interests at heart.

Dave
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 14, 2020, 08:51:20 am
"Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups"

So lets be careful here...

1. Self publicity. Well - its incredibly easy on Youtube to put up a video that is unlisted (its publically viewable - but no-one can find it. A load of mine are (random training /failure stuff I sometimes post on here but dont really want listed for posterity!) and its easy. So on a sliding scale its somewhere from Unwitting publicity >> Spray >> Trolling. (edit - on youtube they've answered  positive comments - so clearly want the stuff out there I guess..)

2. Are they coming from Sheffield or living in a Van. If its from Sheff - then clearly thats against all the 'rules'/'guidlines' whatever. If they are living in the van there because they have no-where else to go - thats different. Or in between - someone who could live at home but has decided fuck it I'm going to live somewhere where I can go climbing. We don't know either.

3. Someone on here will know them. Maybe have a word???

(https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93186150_10158361710449310_8273468396469747712_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=dd9801&_nc_ohc=4oUPoNuzxMUAX-8PZ5k&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=dcee843cf9a3d191a05814322b1a5553&oe=5EB97D0B)

It doesnt take too much snooping to find the above - the name from the youtube channel and sheffield in search turns up a facebook page...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 14, 2020, 08:59:49 am
Not sure if you are being deliberately provocative will and just trying to disagree on every point but yes, youtube is "social media".

Insert the word "publicise" for "spray" to make it make sense.

If it was ok for "other people" to own a Ferrari- and I had the means to get one and I wanted to buy one but would risk a £30 fine if caught doing so....then I would buy one and risk the fine. What would you do?

Again though, going out on the quiet from your home I have no qualms with. Just dont go advertising it or we will all want one.

But what are you saying though - should I just pop up to trackside for a quick lap?

Tt - seen yours but the above still stands I reckon. It's good that we are having this discussion. It popped up on my youtube feed cos I was subscribed.

Also, theres a van for sale round the corner from me. Anyone fancy the van life get out of jail free card and go on a 6 month climbing holiday then cool.

And a caveat - I could be wrong about all of this and have no fixed point of view.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 14, 2020, 09:22:38 am
Did you say you're 10 mins from Curbar? If you're saying it's a 10 minute walk then that sounds reasonable to me but you'll have to make your own judgement, accounting for all the factors previously raised on the thread.

To take a slightly different example, I have two kids so can't be going on trips abroad with my mates at the moment. That doesn't mean that I ask those whose circumstances do allow them to go to not post about it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 14, 2020, 09:44:24 am
10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.

I think the kids example is different from this and I know I'm not going to change your mind... but this form of cant do something I otherwise would is different to injury or personal circumstance. This is hundreds of us electing to not go climbing voluntarily for no actual binding reason. It's not the same as leaving your kids to fend for themselves.

Like dave says he's relaxed about it if you do it "without drawing attention to yourself". I dont think this counts to be honest.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 14, 2020, 09:54:59 am
Just to unpack this.

10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.

So if you're having to drive there then, no, you can't go - or at least, that is the consensus UKB view. Van man shouldn't be driving to the shops just for a pint of milk. He should be going to the shops as little as possible. That's got nothing to do with his climbing at the Tor. Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar. Driving for food is essential travel, driving to Curbar is clearly non-essential.


I think the kids example is different from this and I know I'm not going to change your mind... but this form of cant do something I otherwise would is different to injury or personal circumstance. This is hundreds of us electing to not go climbing voluntarily for no actual binding reason. It's not the same as leaving your kids to fend for themselves.

I don't think it really matters what the circumstances are. Some people's circumstances preclude them from certain things that others have, whether by choice or because it was imposed upon them. Some people are born with disabilities that mean they will never walk, let alone go climbing. They do not demand that we stop flaunting our fun hobby because they can't do it. In this case, it's wrong to say that we've voluntarily stopped going climbing. We are required by law to not travel for non-essential purposes, and that clearly precludes us from driving to crags.



Like dave says he's relaxed about it if you do it "without drawing attention to yourself". I dont think this counts to be honest.

Posting the video was a dumb move, but that doesn't mean we have to sharpen the pitch forks.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 14, 2020, 09:56:57 am
10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.

Most people would consider buying food essential, going climbing isn't though.if I've understood you correctly?


Three vans underneath Stanage, it's hard not to feel like these people are just taking the piss.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on April 14, 2020, 10:03:28 am
Phil Burke who lives in or near Litton has reported on UKC (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370?v=1#x9176431) that he has passed non-local boulderers (5x) each time he has walked past Rubicon!

Massively disappointing and at a very public venue so also very bad PR for the rest of us who will be tarred with the same brush.

If any of the perps are reading this then bear in mind this sort of thing causes long lasting and bitter divisions such as when some climbers joined Newbury bypass protestors in the trees and other climbers were employed to remove them.


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 14, 2020, 10:05:04 am
10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.

Most people would consider buying food essential, going climbing isn't though.if I've understood you correctly?


Three vans underneath Stanage, it's hard not to feel like these people are just taking the piss.


The Stanage people have been discussed on here before. They were waterboarded and they submitted signed statements confirming that they'd been in the Stanage car park when lockdown started and the police specifically told them to stay put.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 14, 2020, 10:18:11 am
I see the police are now using ANPR to track people and call them out for 'unnecessary' journeys...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-dozens-fined-for-heading-to-the-beach-during-lockdown-11972845

This starts to make my 'big brother-ometer' twitch...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 14, 2020, 10:20:03 am
Phil Burke who lives in or near Litton has reported on UKC (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370?v=1#x9176431) that he has passed non-local boulderers (5x) each time he has walked past Rubicon!

Massively disappointing and at a very public venue so also very bad PR for the rest of us who will be tarred with the same brush.
WCJ dale is notoriously difficult access wise. I can think of few less appropriate places climbers (locals or not)could be seen to climb on at this time. Moronic.
I would question the notion that PB knows of every climber within walking distance thought.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on April 14, 2020, 10:21:35 am
All these climbers suddenly popping up in vans at major crags (which I rarely see in the parking on usual days) - some are quite obviously taking the piss.

If they can live in their van and have to keep driving to a shop for a pint of milk, why don't they just park up closer to the shop? Plenty of safe and quiet places to park. Yet they keep going back to the climbing because they've consciously made the decision that they want to go climbing - which they have driven to go and do.

The argument "oh we were here before lockdown" falls away. It's just selfishness.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Nigel on April 14, 2020, 10:26:13 am
Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar.

You obviously don't know Calver Spar - it makes Waitrose look like Netto. Milk is probably £10 a pint.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 14, 2020, 10:32:46 am
All these climbers suddenly popping up in vans at major crags (which I rarely see in the parking on usual days) - some are quite obviously taking the piss.

If they can live in their van and have to keep driving to a shop for a pint of milk, why don't they just park up closer to the shop? Plenty of safe and quiet places to park. Yet they keep going back to the climbing because they've consciously made the decision that they want to go climbing - which they have driven to go and do.

The argument "oh we were here before lockdown" falls away. It's just selfishness.

This. Its selfish bellendry.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 14, 2020, 10:39:37 am
just that cyclists should make peace with the fact that their position is probably really one based on government advice and not based on a strong moral/logical/statistical basis. I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.

...and here's me thinking I'd get to avoid work today by discussing the impact (if any) I'm having on R with Barrows.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 14, 2020, 10:40:25 am
Most people would consider buying food essential, going climbing isn't though.if I've understood you correctly?
It's about 5 minutes to tideswell coop and 15 to curbar spar. That's what I meant.

Just to unpack this.
....
Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar. Driving for food is essential travel, driving to Curbar is clearly non-essential.

Co op is cheaper than spar. And closer. So at least 10 minutes each way of that essential travel is not essential.

Anyway this has all become a bit personal I suppose. I posted in haste this morning and I'm finding the self imposed lockdown annoying for all the reasons people have articulated. But someone posting their lockdown sends on social media is being v public about it and attracting attention.

I am glad we dont live in a draconian state and police by consent etc. But anyone enjoying a climb at the moment at what would otherwise be a busy crag is able to do it only because 100 of us from sheffield arent doing likewise.

This is not like being born with a disability Will but I've made my case.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on April 14, 2020, 10:43:57 am
Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar.

You obviously don't know Calver Spar - it makes Waitrose look like Netto. Milk is probably £10 a pint.

And comes from solid gold taps ;-)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 11:12:24 am
just that cyclists should make peace with the fact that their position is probably really one based on government advice and not based on a strong moral/logical/statistical basis. I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.

...and here's me thinking I'd get to avoid work today by discussing the impact (if any) I'm having on R with Barrows.

 :popcorn:

Was that a prod at me to respond to your earlier post? There seem to be two arguments here - travel and SD.

Some cyclists have been saying it's ok to cycle because they don't have to travel to do it; my retort was those stats that demonstrate that this argument probably doesn't stand up to scrutiny - travoke via cycling is probably more dangerous per km than by car.

On the SD argument it clearly requires application of sense in any activity - shopping, walking, running, cycling, anything else. I don't think the "don't do it unless everyone else could also do it" arguement clearly separates most activities well here - it wouldn't be ok if everyone walked up and down their street at 1pm for an hour because you couldn't observe SD. So we're back to illogical rules, or locking everything down, or focusing on SD rather than arbitrary distinctions between activities e.g. cycling valid but forward rolls and yoga not valid. I don't like things that don't make sense, so IMO it's better to lock everything down OR focus on SD.

P.s. I'm sure you're not increasing R much but neither would Bonjoy increase it much by driving to an obscure undocumented boulder 15min drive from his house. Once again, for the fuckers that don't read the earlier posts, I'm not arguing that he should do that, and I'm not saying I wouldn't rinse the rules for all they're worth if I were a cyclist, I'm just pointing out that I think the rules, and their enforcement, are based on bollocks.

P.p.s. the inconsistencies (as I see them) makes me less likely to listen to the judgement of the ukb hive mind, and the general FB pitchfork fuckers, on when it's acceptable to start climbing again as restrictions are eased.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 14, 2020, 11:22:13 am
I'm not here to argue whether van lifers should live in the streets around supermarkets (but if I had to, I'd point out that that would be moving a potentially asymptomatic person from one community to another where they previously hadn't been living - increased transmission risk, especially because the impact of their lack of sanitation will be exacerbated by being in an urban area). I just think it's mad that people are losing their minds to the point that they see a bloke walk 20 seconds to climb some choss (which he is uniquely placed to know whether someone has climbed there in the last week or not) and they then need to start discussing exactly where he's been shopping and asking why he hasn't gone out of his way to make his circumstances as privatious as possible.


NSFW  rant that makes no sense:
This sort of attitude is why I haven't posted about my own personal circumstances on the "positive things that happen" thread. I can see lots of positives in my own life (maybe I'm personally disposed towards seeing the positives and not dwelling on the negative?), but if I share that positivity then people who aren't having a great time are going to get very upset. Likewise, I started posting board videos on Instagram because people were getting very psyched about training and sharing training psyche at the start. It seems that has now eroded away and people are probably just going to get very angry at me for my selfish bellendry. After all - a wall is a luxury product. There must be close to £1k's worth of wood, fixings, and holds on there now. You need some money and you need some space - not everyone is so fortunate.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on April 14, 2020, 11:24:26 am
Phil Burke who lives in or near Litton has reported on UKC (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370?v=1#x9176431) that he has passed non-local boulderers (5x) each time he has walked past Rubicon!

Massively disappointing and at a very public venue so also very bad PR for the rest of us who will be tarred with the same brush.
WCJ dale is notoriously difficult access wise. I can think of few less appropriate places climbers (locals or not)could be seen to climb on at this time. Moronic.
I would question the notion that PB knows of every climber within walking distance thought.

To be fair he said he knew some had come from Sheffield not that all were non-local so I expressed myself poorly there. His update now is even more disturbing

Quote
Philb1950 10:45 Tue
In reply to UKB Shark:

Walked past before 9 this morning with the dogs and the couple I saw yesterday are actually bivvied there!

 :wall:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 11:26:00 am
I can confirm that I hate fuckers posting board vids Will, and that it makes you an immoral cunt.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 14, 2020, 11:36:31 am
I can confirm that I hate fuckers posting board vids Will, and that it makes you an immoral cunt.

Nice one. Hate is so hot right now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 11:40:55 am
I'm a trend setter. Hatin on haters since '87.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 14, 2020, 11:48:14 am
the players gonna play
And the haters gonna hate
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wood FT on April 14, 2020, 11:50:47 am
Haters gonna hate
Potatoes gonna potate
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 14, 2020, 11:53:16 am
For what its worth Will, i dont think posting board videos makes you a cunt, nor do i hate you for it, though I will update you as and when that changes. I think the training psych is still there, so please post away. It will keep me and Ben training if nothing else.

There was a good piece in The Times today about celebrities posting lurid things about their luxurious lockdowns and copping a load of flack as a result. The class issues of the lockdown are very obvious and would make for a good thread.

I genuinely dont mean to come across as mindlessly angry. This is just a good example of someone pushing the rules to their absolute maximum and being dumb about it at the same time by posting online. This has the potential to piss off locals, affect access and encourage other people out. I think its fair enough to call it out, even if discussing shopping preferences might be a bit excessive.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 14, 2020, 12:14:40 pm
I see the police are now using ANPR to track people and call them out for 'unnecessary' journeys...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-dozens-fined-for-heading-to-the-beach-during-lockdown-11972845

This starts to make my 'big brother-ometer' twitch...

This is an interesting area to me. I get why this would make your big brother antennae tweaking, but I think it's absolutely right for the police to be using the tools they have available to help enforce the law.

For one thing, those cameras are already there. It's not like some massive undercover surveillance system has suddenly been rolled out; it's been around for years to help manage traffic flow and prevent  / detect crime. It's being used for exactly that second purpose now.

For another, detecting people flagrantly flouting the rules is a clear social good in my view, and would be a hell of a lot harder without the technology. I mean the examples given are extraordinary; 200 miles for a fishing trip, 150 miles for a walk on the beach. I suspect those are the tip of the iceberg tbh, and identifying them, sanctioning them and then calling them out publically surely helps achieve our goal of stopping the virus spreading.

Interested in other views though, as clearly there is a line the police need to be careful not to cross, and I am very concerned about long-term infringements on civil liberties.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 14, 2020, 12:22:04 pm
I see the police are now using ANPR to track people and call them out for 'unnecessary' journeys...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-dozens-fined-for-heading-to-the-beach-during-lockdown-11972845

This starts to make my 'big brother-ometer' twitch...

This is an interesting area to me. I get why this would make your big brother antennae tweaking, but I think it's absolutely right for the police to be using the tools they have available to help enforce the law.

For one thing, those cameras are already there. It's not like some massive undercover surveillance system has suddenly been rolled out; it's been around for years to help manage traffic flow and prevent  / detect crime. It's being used for exactly that second purpose now.

For another, detecting people flagrantly flouting the rules is a clear social good in my view, and would be a hell of a lot harder without the technology. I mean the examples given are extraordinary; 200 miles for a fishing trip, 150 miles for a walk on the beach. I suspect those are the tip of the iceberg tbh, and identifying them, sanctioning them and then calling them out publically surely helps achieve our goal of stopping the virus spreading.

Interested in other views though, as clearly there is a line the police need to be careful not to cross, and I am very concerned about long-term infringements on civil liberties.

At the moment, I'd be in favour of armed drones to just get this shit done with. Frankly I'm finding the current situation pretty grim. People taking the piss may be helping to prolong lockdown and risks for health and care workers, and supermarket staff among others.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 14, 2020, 12:36:27 pm
Was that a prod at me to respond to your earlier post? There seem to be two arguments here - travel and SD.

Really not. I typed a response but there's been so many posts since then I'm going to duck out. I think essentially most people I've quoted or responded to are actually on a fairly similar page!

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on April 14, 2020, 12:39:35 pm
 :chair:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on April 14, 2020, 12:47:18 pm
I can confirm that I hate fuckers posting board vids Will, and that it makes you an immoral cunt.

(http://img4.imagetitan.com/img4/small/21/21_d1e7f3fa-1717-4b83-b31f-b74934e54afe.jpeg) (http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=21_d1e7f3fa-1717-4b83-b31f-b74934e54afe.jpeg)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 14, 2020, 12:55:06 pm
@bradders @toby yeah - I can see the need - made it twitch not start registering :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 12:59:14 pm
People taking the piss doing anything non-essential like walking or biking or running or skipping or yoga or buying alcohol or shopping more than once every few weeks or... may be helping to prolong lockdown and risks for health and care workers, and supermarket staff among others.

Fixed. Bored of making the same points now so suspect I'm done posting
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: JamieG on April 14, 2020, 03:40:56 pm
I think this whole discussion boils down to even if people are not officially breaking the law, are they acting in the spirit of it? Everyone draws the line at different places and everybody 'breaks the law' regularly (speeding etc), but most of us try to act in good faith the majority of the time.

It seems some people are not acting in the spirit of the law/guidelines at the moment by climbing at very public crags. It is hardly surprising that is quite frustrating when you are trying your best to help avoid the spread. If you really must climb it isn't hard to keep it quiet.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on April 14, 2020, 04:49:50 pm
In general, I actually think people are being pretty good. I live in South Manchester, it's pretty built up, and people are taking it seriously - sensible in the parks, crossing the road on narrow pavements, runners generally in the road, not on the pavements. Obviously there's the odd twat in full lycra with 80mm deep rims that is obviously not just getting his 30 mins in (it's ok Barrows, we all hate cyclists, you are not alone) but the vast majority are on board.

Re the van lifer. The "stay where you are rule" is fine, unless you then drive round the peak interacting with multiple local communities. It does seem like he is taking the piss but who knows. At least the chumps at Stanage have picked a decent crag. Van lifing in the UK is pretty rubbish anyway, I hope he has a septic tank on board.

Re Will and your board vids, keep them coming. I'm looking forward to the day you actually finish a problem instead of just grabbing the top of the board*...........

*Is my board jealousy visible in that sentence?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 14, 2020, 05:06:13 pm
I've actually got some slopey screw on things which I'm going to screw to the top bar to try and use as finishing holds. No idea if they're too good or too shit yet. Suspect it might be quite difficult as the last footholds are quite far away at that point.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on April 14, 2020, 07:10:45 pm
Re: the whole climbing at the crag as my van is parked there.

Bonjoy hit the nail on the head with his earlier post. It's not about how you interpret the Government guidelines on exercise or whether you happened to be parked at Stanage / Raven Tor when the lockdown was announced. It's about access.

The BMC (which does a fantastic job negotiating access to crags, mainly through a small number of dedicated volunteers, many of whom post on here) has advised people to not go climbing. It's clear cut advice, with no grey areas for interpretation. For what it's worth, UKC are saying the same.

I can well imagine that local residents will be getting twitchy seeing climbers out and about whether they are acting illegally or not. Especially in prominent places like Rubicon where access is delicate at best.

A tongue in cheek post on the Yorkshire sport climbing Facebook group was picked up by a local who was rightly concerned about a potential car load of climbers rocking up to go climbing during lockdown.

Is Whitehouses not in people's recent memory? Sensitive access issues, upset locals? End result, the irreversible destruction of the crag.

Anyone who is still climbing outside in the current climate is acting in a selfish irresponsible way t that only risks jeopardising access for the rest of us when restrictions get lifted.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 14, 2020, 10:12:44 pm
I hope he has a septic tank on board.

I'd have thought they would have flown back home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 15, 2020, 11:27:54 am
Anyone who is still climbing outside in the current climate is acting in a selfish irresponsible way t that only risks jeopardising access for the rest of us when restrictions get lifted.

I've been told this morning of access being lost to 2 crags due to landowners seeing climbers there during the lockdown. I'm trying to find which they are.

Meanwhile I have also been told (2nd hand) that a local A & E has seen a sharp increase in injured cyclists due to inexperienced riders dusting off their old bikes again.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 15, 2020, 11:57:24 am
I've seen a few folk wobbling about on bikes without helmets.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 15, 2020, 12:05:58 pm
I've seen climbers without helmets too.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 15, 2020, 12:21:25 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-52270658?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story

This has had a predicted fallout, fucking bellends.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 15, 2020, 12:51:34 pm
Anyone who is still climbing outside in the current climate is acting in a selfish irresponsible way t that only risks jeopardising access for the rest of us when restrictions get lifted.

I've been told this morning of access being lost to 2 crags due to landowners seeing climbers there during the lockdown. I'm trying to find which they are.

Someone told you access had been lost to 2 crags but didn’t tell you which ones they were? Who told you that?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 15, 2020, 01:16:26 pm
Someone told you access had been lost to 2 crags but didn’t tell you which ones they were? Who told you that?

It was incidental information in an email from a BMC access rep.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: chris j on April 15, 2020, 01:23:24 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-52270658?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story

This has had a predicted fallout, fucking bellends.

Our local harbour authority has blanket banned all watersports around the estuary for the same reasoning, anyone caught out on a kayak or SUP or anything else is looking at a fine.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 15, 2020, 01:28:13 pm

Someone told you access had been lost to 2 crags but didn’t tell you which ones they were? Who told you that?

Crag Hill would appear to be one (from the recently updates but if the RAD) https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/View.aspx?id=785
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 15, 2020, 01:33:18 pm

Our local harbour authority has blanket banned all watersports around the estuary for the same reasoning, anyone caught out on a kayak or SUP or anything else is looking at a fine.

Whereabouts?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on April 15, 2020, 01:45:52 pm
Just read on frankenjura.com that locals have been out climbing in the glorious weather & that the polizei have explicitly ok'd it as healthy outdoor exercise as long as distancing rules are observed.

Bastards  >:(  :furious:  They can stuff their website. I won't be making the mistake of looking at it again until I'm allowed out of the Muenchen Exclusion Zone.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 15, 2020, 01:51:58 pm
Cool. What's the German equivalent of the Daily Mail so I can read some balanced commentary on this?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 15, 2020, 01:59:35 pm

Someone told you access had been lost to 2 crags but didn’t tell you which ones they were? Who told you that?

Crag Hill would appear to be one (from the recently updates but if the RAD) https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/View.aspx?id=785


Caveat: I don't want to excuse the actions of anybody who might have been climbing here irresponsibly. Clearly if somebody went climbing there then that was a stupid thing to do.

But. The picture may be more complex. Looking at the RAD and UKC, any climber who was going there in April was already in breach of a ban because the place is closed between January and April (inclusive) for lambing. And there is a buttress on UKC with some trad routes on it which is described as banned - suggesting that no climbing is allowed on that section whatsoever. That paints a picture of a landowner who isn't very keen on climbers being there at any time. Which fits the profile for where the crag is - basically next door to a working farm (https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d503303a-f4f5-4c3b-a78a-3372f43e6626&cp=54.540946~-2.005504&lvl=16&style=s&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027).

So I'm not saying that the farmer has been unreasonable, but it does make me wonder whether they submitted any evidence to the BMC when they decided to ban. Obviously they don't have to, but did they show any photos of anyone climbing there? Could they have been a walker from the bridle path who went up to the rocks for a look? There have been quite a few recorded incidents of particular landowners who don't like footpaths on their land at the best of times obstructing rights of way and painting gates with anti-vandal paint. Accompanying signs say "Stay Out! Protect The NHS!".
The Protect the NHS slogan (which has been invoked on here) is something I find irksome. Obviously nobody can argue with the sentiment of protecting the NHS, but it shouldn't be used to present an unarguable and outwardly noble defence for disproportionate (and possibly illegal) measures which happen to suit a landowner's personal desires.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: chris j on April 15, 2020, 02:56:49 pm

Our local harbour authority has blanket banned all watersports around the estuary for the same reasoning, anyone caught out on a kayak or SUP or anything else is looking at a fine.

Whereabouts?

Exmouth
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 15, 2020, 03:18:56 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-52270658?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story

This has had a predicted fallout, fucking bellends.

It was some swell on Tuesday and yesterday, as good as its been all winter. It was so tempting to go in but i didnt, mainly due to my local beach not being that good though, the slabs less than 5 mins drive away would have been epic and if i could have easily walked to them i would have gone in. I know someone did and had a ball.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 15, 2020, 03:44:09 pm
I'm just not looking at cams or forecasts.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 16, 2020, 03:32:03 pm
New guidance document for police to help them enforce the lockdown regs.

From beeb:
''Part of the guidance spells out that it is acceptable to buy luxury items while shopping, and that driving somewhere to exercise is acceptable as long as "far more time" is spent walking than driving.''

30 mins drive / 1 hour exercise? Have at it Sheffield.. :jab:

(don't shoot the messenger)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 16, 2020, 03:36:20 pm
Just need to persuade the officers that lowball traversing is a form of walking :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 16, 2020, 03:58:02 pm
New guidance document for police to help them enforce the lockdown regs.

From beeb:
''Part of the guidance spells out that it is acceptable to buy luxury items while shopping, and that driving somewhere to exercise is acceptable as long as "far more time" is spent walking than driving.''

30 mins drive / 1 hour exercise? Have at it Sheffield.. :jab:

(don't shoot the messenger)

FFS. Talk about confusing. Who makes this shit up??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark20 on April 16, 2020, 04:14:26 pm
From the other channel, a link to the Police guidance. I can’t see a date on it but I’m assuming it’s the latest

https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/COVID-19/Documents/What-constitutes-a-reasonable-excuse.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1LJtVDeXwMiKfNkvswhO3udJfT7Sef0-1b1BGggLu5wlRGfAjh8IPcU_M

Where it states “It is lawful to drive for exercise”.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 16, 2020, 04:16:59 pm
OK, I think I get it now. So non-essential travel is ok, so long as the non-essential thing you do at the other end of the travel is sufficiently long. So if I drive to the Orme I need to spend at least 10hrs there having a mega session before coming back. Right? How many routes earns a trip to Malham? Does running away from villagers with pitchforks count as valid exercise?

Edit: that doc makes it hard for me to see how you could be fined for climbing, given it explicitly states "Exercise can come in many forms". But maybe not bouldering, cos those fuckers rest too much.

P.S. Sorry duncan or whoever it was that was pleased Yoga wasn't counted as exercise... looks like the Yogis are back in town (or the park at least)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: guypercival on April 16, 2020, 04:26:21 pm
Pirmin has set the benchmark

http://lizardclimbing.com/2020/04/15/the-almost-perfect-corona-climbing-day-panthera-11-9a-redpoint-and-corona-almost-as-well/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on April 16, 2020, 04:30:12 pm
Hmmm ... really not sure why driving to some local bouldering is not okay from reading that guidance.

Certainly if you live with a partner or mate and wanted to go to some local sport climbing I don’t think the guidance prohibits that
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lurcher on April 16, 2020, 04:30:48 pm
Tis England only that doc so you may well get pitchforked by north wales police at the orme..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on April 16, 2020, 04:31:39 pm
Fair point!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 16, 2020, 04:33:32 pm

Edit: that doc makes it hard for me to see how you could be fined for climbing, given it explicitly states "Exercise can come in many forms". But maybe not bouldering, cos those fuckers rest too much.

Says the man who moves for 10 seconds and rests hanging off his knees for 2 minutes..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 16, 2020, 04:34:49 pm

Edit: that doc makes it hard for me to see how you could be fined for climbing, given it explicitly states "Exercise can come in many forms". But maybe not bouldering, cos those fuckers rest too much.


Half the successful redpoint attempts I read about seem to require a nap of several hours beforehand 😂
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 16, 2020, 04:36:32 pm
Maybe COVID regulations will finally push me over the edge #biggradesforbadCOVIDbeta
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: monkoffunk on April 16, 2020, 04:40:06 pm
I think you’d still get lynched on Portland. Dorset is not doing too badly right now, but neighboured by some virus hot spots. Locals haven’t got over the packed scenes just prior to lockdown.

People also seem to think climbing more likely to land you up in A&E than running, rightly or wrongly.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on April 16, 2020, 05:18:18 pm
Roads and isolated parking spots certainly seemed much busier today than last week, while I was out for a ride. And now this updated guidance gives the explicit go ahead to drive out as far as you need/want to exercise. I would expect beauty spots and national parks to get A LOT busier from now on. It seems whether to climb or not now comes down to personal choice and/or conscience as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 16, 2020, 05:24:18 pm
I cycled over Baildon Moor last night and all the parking pull ins had been blocked off, by the police I think but possibly the council. Presumably that will have to change. We shall see.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AMorris on April 16, 2020, 05:31:32 pm
Pirmin has set the benchmark

http://lizardclimbing.com/2020/04/15/the-almost-perfect-corona-climbing-day-panthera-11-9a-redpoint-and-corona-almost-as-well/

"It was NOT my goal to hamper the fight against Covid-19 with this, but not to let pass great sending conditions is part of my job as a climber"

Wow, I have always disliked him but that has left me speechless...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 16, 2020, 05:44:19 pm
It’s fucking daft.

In the same guidance it says that it’s not right to go out and buy paint to decorate your kitchen - but you can drive for an hour for a potter somewhere..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: macca7 on April 16, 2020, 05:47:22 pm
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?

So you can drive a short way to do these. Its not said crack back on with whatever you want?

I guess as been said a million times it depends how you want to read it?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Adam Lincoln on April 16, 2020, 05:52:05 pm
What it gives you in the very least is a reason to be driving to a crag if you get stopped. As you can say you are going for a walk.

An out of the way crag out of public view without much footfall.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 16, 2020, 05:53:08 pm
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?

"Exercise can come in many forms"
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 16, 2020, 05:54:51 pm
Next three weeks will likely see increasing stretching of the spirit of the guidance. May 8th bank holiday could be mental.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: macca7 on April 16, 2020, 05:56:42 pm
Be interesting to see if the bmc change their stand point with the new explanation of the restrictions?

Can't imagine they will?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 16, 2020, 05:59:24 pm
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?

They were only ever presented as examples. Climbing was 'banned' entirely by the climbing community.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 16, 2020, 06:05:30 pm
I think the concern will shift from health to access, because public perception of climbing is a different issue from health impacts of climbing.
Sat here thinking through how would I feel about going out tradding with my housemate later this week.. when I think about how a landowner would perceive seeing us, it’s quite possible we could end up having a confrontation and long-term access issues.
Simply not worth it at the moment on any crag that requires landowner consent.
Other venues.. not sure how I feel about it.
BMC owned crag?? Would they ban access in future :) But clearly they have a political image to upkeep.. have to balance that image with it being weird for them to not allow their members access to horseshoe/trem etc. Weird situation.
Local lowball bouldering on esoteric crags with no others present, my opinion is unchanged.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on April 16, 2020, 06:06:38 pm
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?

So you can drive a short way to do these. Its not said crack back on with whatever you want?

That’s just because those are the three forms of (non-team) exercise anyone would come up if they thought for 2 seconds, surely?

I’m sure it has also been implied, if not explicitly said, the exercise should be around an hour. So that doesn’t leave much driving time to get out to the country if the exercise has to be significantly more than the driving time. Pretty unfair on the city dwellers!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 16, 2020, 06:15:35 pm
Roads and isolated parking spots certainly seemed much busier today than last week.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 16, 2020, 06:16:27 pm
Gav’s gonna be gutted he bought all that ply!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 16, 2020, 06:18:28 pm
‘’However, a very short period of ‘exercise’ to excuse a long period of inactivity may mean that the person is not engaged in ‘exercise’ but in fact something else.’’

It’s almost as if whoever wrote the guidance had Malham catwalk in mind when they wrote this.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 16, 2020, 06:26:49 pm
It’s almost as if whoever wrote the guidance had Malham catwalk in mind when they wrote this.

I'm not sure you'll get a very good welcome in the Dales. I think the NT have closed the carpark and all of the usual Malham show clearway cones may be in use.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 16, 2020, 06:31:19 pm
Was a joke, as in people hanging around working their proj!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 16, 2020, 06:47:49 pm
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?

So you can drive a short way to do these. Its not said crack back on with whatever you want?

That’s just because those are the three forms of (non-team) exercise anyone would come up if they thought for 2 seconds, surely?

I’m sure it has also been implied, if not explicitly said, the exercise should be around an hour. So that doesn’t leave much driving time to get out to the country if the exercise has to be significantly more than the driving time. Pretty unfair on the city dwellers!

Macca, exercise was never limited to those three things.
And whoever was saying it, exercise was never explicitly time limited to half an hour or an hour. I believe they are just the numbers that sprang into Mr Gove's head when he was questioned. Although democracy in this country has been suspended, he is not a one man legislative body.

It’s fucking daft.

In the same guidance it says that it’s not right to go out and buy paint to decorate your kitchen - but you can drive for an hour for a potter somewhere..

The fault (if there is any is a matter of opinion) is with the legislation. The police have just set out their interpretation of the legislation. To do more would be unlawful. Exercise is deemed a reasonable excuse, going out to shop for essentials is reasonable excuse. You could always pick up your paint (or ply and t-nuts  :ang:) while out doing your big food shop.

I can't wait till we get the news report of the billionaire who gets stopped while popping out for a pack of paracetamol and a swarovski encrusted Rolls Royce.

I thought this bit was interesting.
Quote
Moving to a friend’s address for several days to allow a ‘cooling-off’ following arguments at home.

Presumably an attempt to curb domestic abuse?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 16, 2020, 06:56:23 pm
Was a joke, as in people hanging around working their proj!

I did get that. There's a Malham specific COVIDIOT poster kicking around (I can't find it now). They misspelled Cove  ;D
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 16, 2020, 08:00:00 pm
This really would have been so much easier - if they had followed the French model (I think) saying you can exercise by walking, running or cycling, not going further than 5km from your house....

Black and white. So - tough shit to climbers, canoeists, cavers, fencers, pole vaulters - whatever floats your boat. Tough.

Instead we have a daft interpretive set of rules - not really wanting to ruffle any feathers or make anyone too pissed off. All feels a bit like they don’t want to irk too many voters rather than the right thing...

Ffs - it’s killing 1000 people a day and will probably make 3 million people unemployed (or more)... don’t fuck about - it’s not the time to be gentle about this!!!

/rant
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on April 16, 2020, 08:19:41 pm
All feels a bit like they don’t want to irk too many voters rather than the right thing...

^^^This

And now disproportionately favours the wealthier end even more so.

If you live in a tiny inner city flat with no garden (and no car) you can’t go to the park to sit on a bench or on the grass just to be outside in the sunshine, you would have to constantly be moving.

But with a car you can basically drive wherever you like to go for a walk in the countryside with your sandwiches.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 16, 2020, 08:20:01 pm

In the same guidance it says that it’s not right to go out and buy paint to decorate your kitchen - but you can drive for an hour for a potter somewhere..
Why?
That seems entirely the right way round to me. Mental and physical health are more important  than DIY. But more importantly, shopping is indoors and more likely to involve close person to person interaction and contact with contaminated surfaces. Going for a potter outside can very easily avoid both. How far is justifiable to drive is dependant on many factors obviously.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 16, 2020, 08:57:51 pm
@Bonjoy A few things (edit - I see you’ve covered some of them :) ). Firstly - most people will not travel far to get paint. Driving for an hour for a walk is - say up to 60 miles. The latter risks increasing the geographic spread - the former less so.

Secondly - I’d assume this means the same level of social distancing as happens at paint shops as at supermarkets now - If not greater as they would be less busy. So - is this really any worse than going somewhere for a walk where there are lots of other people.

Third, judging by the amount of DIY, gardening, car polishing and general furtling going on around here (and as evidence on social media I look at) - I would say that to many people doing some DIY is as important to their mental health as going for a walk is for others... I don’t think we can apply the feelings of the members of a climbing forum to the general population on this front..

But to counter my original point (which was a frustrated rant at the silliness of picking an hours drive as an example) you can of course buy paint rollers and all that stuff online and have it delivered - whereas you can’t with exercise.

As a final point - I live in a city - suburbs - but Victorian suburbs so a fairly high population density (not high rises - bit plenty of flats). I miss the hills - but have been perfectly able to get enough exercise - air (much better now) and space to stretch my Legs and where the lad can ride his scooter. I’d like to leave the burbs and go for a walk in the peak - but it’s not something I consider necessary at the moment to my physical or mental health. I really can’t see why driving out to the peak (for example) could be justifiable to me - when I could walk to a park - or drive if I were not that mobile.

Why on earth might people in Sheffield (for example) feel they have to go to Curbar for a walk instead of near their houses??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: moose on April 16, 2020, 09:04:17 pm
Roads and isolated parking spots certainly seemed much busier today than last week.
Agreed.

n=1 but during when driving to site visits (I generally work from home but am still visiting fire scenes) I've noticed a "creep" back toward average re pedestrians in town centres. In Hull and Gateshead this week there were lots of people mingling at bus stops and the pavements seemed only a little less crowded than a normal weekday afternoon.  On the motorways there has been incrementally more non-commercial traffic. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 16, 2020, 09:12:35 pm
Quote
Why on earth might people in Sheffield (for example) feel they have to go to Curbar for a walk instead of near their houses??

Umm, well, for the same reason you get more (presumably) out of going to Curbar (during normal times obvs) than going to the wall or park. Add in the fact that its heaving in the parks and round here they are mostly very linear (narrow paths, narrow valleys) and you get huffed on by joggers and have to jump out of the way of cyclists plus gates etc. Whereas Burbage is a six minute drive, unlimited space, and yes I get better mental health benefits from a huge open space with grand vistas etc. I would respectfully suggest if your choice of a house/ career etc wasn't entirely dictated by access to that open space you may not understand its importance.

Quote
I've noticed a "creep" back toward average re pedestrians in town centres

Our road just never got that quiet. I'm think there are a lot of businesses that just carried on as they weren't explicitly told to stop. This is where the police should be busy imho.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 16, 2020, 09:18:50 pm
Quote
Why on earth might people in Sheffield (for example) feel they have to go to Curbar for a walk instead of near their houses??

Umm, well, for the same reason you get more (presumably) out of going to Curbar (during normal times obvs) than going to the wall or park. Add in the fact that its heaving in the parks and round here they are mostly very linear (narrow paths, narrow valleys) and you get huffed on by joggers and have to jump out of the way of cyclists plus gates etc. Whereas Burbage is a six minute drive, unlimited space, and yes I get better mental health benefits from a huge open space with grand vistas etc. I would respectfully suggest if your choice of a house/ career etc wasn't entirely dictated by access to that open space you may not understand its importance.

Quote
I've noticed a "creep" back toward average re pedestrians in town centres

Our road just never got that quiet. I'm think there are a lot of businesses that just carried on as they weren't explicitly told to stop. This is where the police should be busy imho.

What makes it more important for you to go out for a walk at Curbar than anyone else in that park JB?

I would respectfully suggest you should live somewhere more rural yourself if that’s an issue? :p
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 16, 2020, 09:27:45 pm
Be interesting to see if the bmc change their stand point with the new explanation of the restrictions?

Can't imagine they will?

I hope they don't, we need crystal clear messaging from dedicated sporting bodies to mitigate the lack of detail the Government can give, as it's impossible for them to cover every activity (without a France style "don't go outside").

It still comes down to asking yourself the question of who do you want to be, and are you part of the problem or solution. If you don't absolutely have to drive, don't.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 16, 2020, 09:35:35 pm
The issue with saying the shops should be open is that the shops are indoor spaces which were not designed to be used during a pandemic. I'm sure we've all been to the supermarket by now and we know that, in an aisle that's only just about 6 feet wide, social distancing does not get observed religiously, despite everyone's best efforts. The shops also have to be manned, and the staff that do so will often be getting the bus or train to work. So public transport fills up again.

I'm not trying to argue that the rules shouldn't be tighter. I think they ought to be and the main thing I would change is for more to be done about business. Though I'm not privy to the economic information that might have informed that decision. The thing I do disagree with quite strongly is having a go at the police for simply enforcing the law and going no further. The law is shit, not least because it was passed in a day and then the legislature disbanded so it couldn't be amended.

Regardless of what the police can do with their powers, we can still expect residents of the countryside to give a very cold reception to unwanted visitors, and I'd rather face a trial by jury than a trial by social media.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: old cheese on April 16, 2020, 09:51:14 pm

Secondly - I’d assume this means the same level of social distancing as happens at paint shops as at supermarkets now - If not greater as they would be less busy. So - is this really any worse than going somewhere for a walk where there are lots of other people.

Third, judging by the amount of DIY, gardening, car polishing and general furtling going on around here (and as evidence on social media I look at) - I would say that to many people doing some DIY is as important to their mental health as going for a walk is for others... I don’t think we can apply the feelings of the members of a climbing forum to the general population on this.


You kinda countered your own point here. You make a statement that paint shops will be less busy (the queues for wilkos in matlock are longer than any other shop in Matlock have been for 2 weeks And as I live very close to it can assure you that is a fact) and then describe how many people are doing DIY in your local area. You can’t do work without having the kit. Are you saying that they didn’t shop for it in an actual shop? If so surely they would be busier than normal.

Or were you suggesting that all the people in your area actually had it all delivered? That’s a far fetched assumption.

Sounds like a weak agreement based on your own made up facts. Alternative truths maybe.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 16, 2020, 10:02:11 pm
The punter points for saying I made things up Old Cheese.

#10 had a load of paint and rollers delivered for their living room ceiling (last week)

#11 has had a bathroom suite delivered and is midway through doing their install themselves. Though they’ll have to wait to get their plastering done.

Next door had paint delivered (this weekend) and have stripped and painted their back yard walls (I wouldn’t have bothered but hey..).

Edit. Oh and #5 painted their back yard last week. Think they got the paint from tescos on a food run.

Ten occupied houses in our road.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ged on April 16, 2020, 10:19:47 pm
Pirmin has set the benchmark

http://lizardclimbing.com/2020/04/15/the-almost-perfect-corona-climbing-day-panthera-11-9a-redpoint-and-corona-almost-as-well/

Wow, what a prick. And the route is called corona, is he for real? And he's wearing a mask?

If you need to justify it as much as he does in the write up, you definitely shouldn't be doing it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on April 16, 2020, 10:23:12 pm
"but not to let pass great sending conditions is part of my job as a climber "

 :lol: :wank:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 16, 2020, 10:29:04 pm
If his job is to climb it then I say it's Ondra's job to flash it and downgrade it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 16, 2020, 10:47:25 pm
Oh dear.

''Hardly more than an hour at the crag 10km away from home with my wife''
Plus arranging for a photographer to come along to document his ascent?

Climbing in a mask?

Publicising nearly doing a new route (and calling it Corona)?

''but not to let pass great sending conditions is part of my job as a climber''

Pirmintroll.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: old cheese on April 16, 2020, 10:49:29 pm
Apologies Tomtom for stating that you made things up. Especially with the very specific evidence that you presented about your immediate neighbours. I guess with this level of scientific scrutiny we can extrapolate that all people are doing the same and not visiting paint stores to make purchases.

These kind is assumptions do my head in. Like the people who, earlier in this thread ascertained that cycling was safer now due to there being less traffic on the road. I kinda get that to a certain extent but there is a very counter argument here. How many people drive a little quicker on roads that they think are quieter? Does that not increase the likelihood that there would be more dangers for cyclists? Especially those that are maybe a little rusty on the old steeds.

Don’t worry about the punter points. Not like they really matter is it? Interesting that you start your reply with a punter though. I might wad you in response. In teaching it’s all about rewards these days and not focussing on the negatives. I guess the rest of the world needs to catch up unless modern teaching is wrong...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 16, 2020, 11:30:07 pm

Publicising nearly doing a new route (and calling it Corona)?


Not that this makes any better, but the route he was on (Corona) is a Markus Bock route from some years ago.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 17, 2020, 08:17:00 am

It still comes down to asking yourself the question of who do you want to be, and are you part of the problem or solution.

The NPCC and gov should stick that in the guidelines.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 17, 2020, 08:43:53 am
Quote
Why on earth might people in Sheffield (for example) feel they have to go to Curbar for a walk instead of near their houses??

Umm, well, for the same reason you get more (presumably) out of going to Curbar (during normal times obvs) than going to the wall or park. Add in the fact that its heaving in the parks and round here they are mostly very linear (narrow paths, narrow valleys) and you get huffed on by joggers and have to jump out of the way of cyclists plus gates etc. Whereas Burbage is a six minute drive, unlimited space, and yes I get better mental health benefits from a huge open space with grand vistas etc. I would respectfully suggest if your choice of a house/ career etc wasn't entirely dictated by access to that open space you may not understand its importance.

Quote
I've noticed a "creep" back toward average re pedestrians in town centres

Our road just never got that quiet. I'm think there are a lot of businesses that just carried on as they weren't explicitly told to stop. This is where the police should be busy imho.

What makes it more important for you to go out for a walk at Curbar than anyone else in that park JB?

I would respectfully suggest you should live somewhere more rural yourself if that’s an issue? :p


As I said, mental health requirements will differ. I'm staggered by the lack of empathy in this thread towards people for whom access to nature may be the only thing keeping them alive. Clearly if you don't have that need yourself it might be easy to pretend it doesn't exist, but perhaps try to imagine. Di you remember the mental health crisis? It hasn't gone away.

I'm not going over the arguments again. I'm not suggesting people travel or get close to each other.

I live in the closest house to Stanage I could afford. I can walk there and have. More rural would be nice but out of my budget, and no closer to the crag.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on April 17, 2020, 09:09:24 am
Completely agree with that. Access to and being in nature is a completely different level of satisfaction for me than simply going to the local park. Yes, that helps but the lockdown has made me aware of how much I personally gain and find helpful being in the outdoors. My own mental health is generally fine but I am certainly one of those people who finds themselves much happier, more sane and more generally healthy if they are able to get into the countryside regularly.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 17, 2020, 09:20:45 am
I’d hope we all appreciate that.

Whilst we can spend endless hours debating different edge cases, to my mind things are simple. The purpose of the lockdown is to try and ensure you don’t meet anyone outside your household unless it’s absolutely essential.

So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

If you really do, then fair enough, it’s legal and I’d hope you won’t get slagged for it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 17, 2020, 09:24:32 am
Completely agree with that. Access to and being in nature is a completely different level of satisfaction for me than simply going to the local park. Yes, that helps but the lockdown has made me aware of how much I personally gain and find helpful being in the outdoors. My own mental health is generally fine but I am certainly one of those people who finds themselves much happier, more sane and more generally healthy if they are able to get into the countryside regularly.

This almost perfectly describes my position too. I suppose the question, really, is whether during times such as these, where extreme measures are required, should policy be formulated with the aim of maintaining access for that small "at risk" section of the population, with the ensuing risk of behaviour "creep" from those, like most posting here I suspect, who can live without the outdoors even though it makes them more irritable and generally less happy? Or should policy be formulated on what the majority can live with? I genuinely don't know the answer.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 09:29:05 am
Both Johnny and Davo make good points.

Neither of them, nor the stated goal/need involve climbing.

Pretty sure access to nature is the intention behind the clarification of the “driving to” guidance.

As for whether climbing or bouldering are acceptable, it doesn’t seem likely that the government will delineate between every possible sport or activity, so it’s going to come down to individual police force and officer’s interpretation in the first instance and then (if that level decides to bump it up) a magistrate.

Ultimately, you have to decide if you can argue successfully against a magistrate, in the light of the BMC position, which they will almost certainly use to inform their opinion.

 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 17, 2020, 09:38:34 am
Here comes in the tension between science and policymaking (from the perspective of an often exasperated scientist).

Very crudely, the science says stay at home. Except for essentials (food and medicine)

Policy makers (politicians) then look at it and say - oh  - well thats going to be tough - is there a way we can package this - or weaken it a little so its more palatable... don't want to piss off the voters too much etc.. etc.. and so we have the fudge we have now.

The 'clarification' of the rules that came out yesterday to me just makes things even worse rather than clearer...

If you live close enough to crags/hills or out in the proverbial middle of no-where great. Really - good luck to you and enjoy the space you have. Enjoy what that affords you at this time -  I really don't get what the problem is if you're able to get out and use that space at the moment*!

*unless this is about not being able to climb again - isnt that kind of covered at length in the mostly agree but one or two don't sense?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 17, 2020, 09:44:52 am
So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

But I'd bet 95% of people don't really have to do anything, including walk/bike/run, to avoid them actually killing themselves. You could even smash out a fast for a few days at the end of every resupply. Over the course of a few restocks there's a trip to the shops avoided or a delivery slot saved for the elderly. So I don't think the "have to do it" is a sensible way to put it, nor do I think it's how the vast majority of people are approaching it. Then you're left with, "have to do it in order to XX", which is where we've always been at - does XX = "maintain a reasonable quality of life"? "Avoid going a bit nuts"? How much is a bit? "Avoid being in such a shitty mood that your relationships break down"?  etc. etc. Actually, thinking about it, you've always got the "in order to.." part, even if you decide that XX = "avoid dying", you still need to define XX for it to work, otherwise you leave everyone up to defining it themselves, which is why I've wasted 40 pages of ukb's worth of my life on this thread


If you live close enough to crags/hills or out in the proverbial middle of no-where great. Really - good luck to you and enjoy the space you have. Enjoy what that affords you at this time - and I really don't get your beef if you're able to get out and use that space!

I suspect the beef was that you appeared to be giving people shit for thinking about doing that.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 17, 2020, 10:23:13 am
What Barrows said.

So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

I'm not trying to have a go or accuse you of being a hypocrite, Stu, but I just want to examine this. Does his mean that you haven't been out for a walk/run/cycle/whatever? Because as Barrows said, nobody really has to do these things.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 17, 2020, 10:43:53 am
Can we change to topic title to ‘Pedantry during Covid 19’
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 17, 2020, 10:55:13 am
Might as well change the title of the police guidance to the same whilst you're at it  :shrug:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on April 17, 2020, 11:48:10 am
The guidance in the USA re restarting the economy is interesting, gyms reopening earlier in the process than I'd have expected.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 17, 2020, 12:05:43 pm
"GYMS can remain open if they adhere to strict physical distancing and sanitation protocols"

Indeed, I don't see how this is possible to maintain, especially for climbing walls.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 17, 2020, 12:07:29 pm
What Barrows said.

So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

I'm not trying to have a go or accuse you of being a hypocrite, Stu, but I just want to examine this. Does his mean that you haven't been out for a walk/run/cycle/whatever? Because as Barrows said, nobody really has to do these things.

The key point is "close contact". Close contact would mean being stood within two meters, or touching surfaces someone else has touched. I've been out for a few runs, a couple of bike rides, and to shop (as little as I can). Only the shop will bring me into close contact with others, but it's unavoidable. I haven't been out anywhere near as much as I'd like, certainly not every day, and usually when I start to get ratty.

The reason why I push a hard line is to try and get out this shit sooner. If we try and do as much as possible to limit transmission, we get down to a level of cases which is manageable by contract tracing and we can go back to something that looks like normal life. If we don't lockdown well and bump around a transmission value of R=1 we'll have large numbers of stable cases and we're fucked.

So my rule is still simple; if there's a chance - even a small one - that you'd have more contact than walking round someone at a wide berth. Don't do it unless you absolutely need to.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 17, 2020, 12:11:18 pm
So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

But I'd bet 95% of people don't really have to do anything, including walk/bike/run, to avoid them actually killing themselves. You could even smash out a fast for a few days at the end of every resupply. Over the course of a few restocks there's a trip to the shops avoided or a delivery slot saved for the elderly.

The fast is a bit extreme, and only Dave Mac thinks it would be good for you, but basically you've just described the ideal behaviour from an epidemiology point of view. We should all strive to get as close to this as we can manage, and we'll get out of this sooner.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Muenchener on April 17, 2020, 12:15:25 pm
Re the Pirmin thing: yes he's made himself look a total prick in the way he has communicated his activities (Again. See also: whining when Ondra downgraded his route) But climbing locally with his wife on a quiet sector in the woods is perfectly ok under Bavarian lockdown rules & explicitly confirmed as such by the polizei.

I already mentioned this (in a fit of jealousy) further up the thread; here's the actual frankenjura.com link (https://www.frankenjura.com/frankenjura/news/artikel/1840) with the quote from the head of the local cop shop when explicitly asked about climbing:

Quote
Solange sich die Natursportler an die allgemeinen Regeln der Verordnung zur Ausgangsbeschränkung halten, sind von der Polizei Ebermannstadt keinerlei Beanstandungen zu erwarten.

... roughly

Quote
As long as people pursuing outdoor sport stick to the general rules of the lockdown declaration, then they don't need to worry about any objections from the Ebermannstadt police.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 12:19:21 pm
"GYMS can remain open if they adhere to strict physical distancing and sanitation protocols"

Indeed, I don't see how this is possible to maintain, especially for climbing walls.

Possible?

Yes.

Practical, different story.

Before closing, we switched to spraying down, each evening, with hospital disinfectant.
Hand sanitizer everywhere and cloths and soray disinfectant for each piece of equipment in the training room.

Given falling zones, the distancing thing should be normal practice.

Masks? Uncomfortable, but why not?

The biggest problems come from reusing a problem/route/equipment  too quickly.

Even the best sprays recommended a 15 min contact time for disinfection.

Could you, for instance, spray down the problem you had just used, cone it off, chalk up time of cleaning and patiently wait for your next problem to dry/time out?

Nothing makes it foolproof.

Would you consent to a temperature check and health questionnaire on each entry?

Constant badgering to rewash your hands?

And don’t even get started on sweat issues...

Minimisation is possible, could you minimise it enough?

Don’t know.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 17, 2020, 12:22:25 pm
basically you've just described the ideal behaviour from an epidemiology point of view. We should all strive to get as close to this as we can manage, and we'll get out of this sooner.

Stu - I think we're in agreement there, but I don't think that's how the guidance is being presented or being interpreted and applied by the average punter. I then look at the local park/street and figure that we won't be out of this quick, so I may as well make it more sustainable/less shit medium-term. Gov should just have gone full lockdown and not fucked around.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 17, 2020, 12:26:03 pm
OMM - maybe the larger walls can work with this more easily by reducing the density of holds (e.g. one problem every 2-3 m wide) and limiting the entry..

This reduces the use per problem - and allows problems to be cleaned and allowed to be used etc..

Christ, it would be a fucker to do though and this would obviously screw the income for a wall - but give them some path to opening/generating revenue...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 17, 2020, 12:26:49 pm
Re the Pirmin thing: yes he's made himself look a total prick in the way he has communicated his activities (Again. See also: whining when Ondra downgraded his route) But climbing locally with his wife on a quiet sector in the woods is perfectly ok under Bavarian lockdown rules & explicitly confirmed as such by the polizei.

I already mentioned this (in a fit of jealousy) further up the thread; here's the actual frankenjura.com link (https://www.frankenjura.com/frankenjura/news/artikel/1840) with the quote from the head of the local cop shop when explicitly asked about climbing:

Quote
Solange sich die Natursportler an die allgemeinen Regeln der Verordnung zur Ausgangsbeschränkung halten, sind von der Polizei Ebermannstadt keinerlei Beanstandungen zu erwarten.

... roughly

Quote
As long as people pursuing outdoor sport stick to the general rules of the lockdown declaration, then they don't need to worry about any objections from the Ebermannstadt police.


Yep, he's not breaking the German rules (unless he brought along a photographer to get shots of him climbing - maybe to justify this third person is why he mentions it's his job to go out climbing).

If your business plan is to piss off the majority of your sport's community and make it look like you're an attention-seeking nob then he's excelling at his job.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 17, 2020, 12:30:59 pm
Stu, I agree with you in principle that we should all just try to get the transmission down as low as quickly as possible. But.. This is isn't happening out there IRL. In real life people are still going to work in completely needless jobs. I was out on my bike yesterday and lost count of number of window cleaners at work, builders, random shops like 'The Pound Shop' in Llandudno open because they sell a bit of food or some vitamins (I can only assume!). This is nothing like a total lockdown (as you're aware).

We're more like in a lockdown if you're scared/rich/very moral/lazy/or an academic working from ivory tower home :)

The work thing makes me conflicted.. just been talking to clients this morning and it looks like we're going to gets people back on projects in early May. Is it essential, is it fuck. But it's a commercial pressure.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 17, 2020, 12:33:18 pm
Stu - I think we're in agreement there, but I don't think that's how the guidance is being presented or being interpreted and applied by the average punter. I then look at the local park/street and figure that we won't be out of this quick, so I may as well make it more sustainable/less shit medium-term. Gov should just have gone full lockdown and not fucked around.

This is an issue Barrows - and its a bit of a mixed message.

There is a big DOOM laden advertising effort at the moment to STAY at HOME (adverts to me on the TV, isnta, facebook, even spotify etc..) - but then slightly fluffier advice from the government as widely reported by all the major news outlets that driving an hour for a walk is OK.... #facepalm etc..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 17, 2020, 12:36:59 pm
I think the most important bit is the result TT. Is it getting R0 down? Yes, according to latest briefing. Then the measures are working and doing what they're designed to do, despite all the fudge and inconsistency. Some government advisers have already expressed on record how the public have followed the lockdown regs more closely than the models estimated they would. I think the fluffiness in the guidance around being able to move around on the edges of what's OK just reflects that the measures are working, whether we obey them strictly as individuals or not. If the R0 wasn't dropping to below 1 then the measures (and their enforcement) would be stricter. Only my opinion.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 17, 2020, 12:57:36 pm
There are two issues with using other people’s loose application of a lockdown to justify your own loose application.

The first, and biggest, is that it only leads in one direction. And it ain’t the right one.

The second I need to think more about and perhaps model, but I suspect that if a decent minority of us execute a strict lockdown, then that can have a disproportionate impact on Ro, by breaking chains of infection. Think of if as trying to be the one domino that doesn’t fall...

I’m quite sympathetic to people going to work and thinking their business is essential when it’s not. People have to feed their families somehow.

Those of us fortunate enough to be in the position I am - stable job, work from home should try and be the domino that doesn’t fall, for everyone’s sake.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 12:58:27 pm
I think the most important bit is the result TT. Is it getting R0 down? Yes, according to latest briefing. Then the measures are working and doing what they're designed to do, despite all the fudge and inconsistency. Some government advisers have already expressed on record how the public have followed the lockdown regs more closely than the models estimated they would. I think the fluffiness in the guidance around being able to move around on the edges of what's OK just reflects that the measures are working, whether we obey them strictly as individuals or not. If the R0 wasn't dropping to below 1 then the measures (and their enforcement) would be stricter. Only my opinion.

This.

We have no treatment, no vaccine.

Does anybody think, that even if we locked down to an actual house arrest scenario, we would actually defeat the virus?

Controlling the rate of spread, trying to shield the most vulnerable, keeping casualties at a level the medical services can just about deal with, is all we can do.

They’re going ahead with fitting out of the Devon Nightingale, despite the apparently “reasonable” growth rate here.
I wondered if that wasn’t with the intention of creating “COVID Hospitals” in the medium term, to shift the infected out of general hospitals.

The number of total infections required to reach herd immunity (if that’s even a thing) is going to take a year or so. Almost as long/the same as the likely timeline for vaccine development.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 17, 2020, 01:17:35 pm
I think this is pertinent:

Quote
The National Police Chiefs' Council (NPCC) has now issued guidance for police officers in England to explain the reasons that someone could "reasonably" leave their home during the COVID-19 lockdown.

They stress it simply helps officers to interpret on the original government advice.

The document released doesn't necessarily change the Goverment's stance (their guidelines, or what they'd ideally like the public to do) it just clarifies to the Police what they actually have power to act upon (to keep Judge Dredd in check). Or have I misunderstood that?

EDIT: I forgot to say I think the overall effect will be to undermine the lockdown as it clearly shows the disparity between what's 'allowed' and what's 'desired'.

Can we change to topic title to ‘Pedantry during Covid 19’

:guilty: and I didn't even get chance to type my post defining hazard/risk/severity.

Like the people who, earlier in this thread ascertained that cycling was safer now due to there being less traffic on the road. I kinda get that to a certain extent but there is a very counter argument here. How many people drive a little quicker on roads that they think are quieter? Does that not increase the likelihood that there would be more dangers for cyclists? Especially those that are maybe a little rusty on the old steeds.

Until Ru posted (or maybe Bonjoy got there first?) I'd honestly not considered people dusting off their bikes and then having a crash. People driving a little faster? Farmers forgetting they share the road with others? Sure, they're fair points both of which I probably didn't consider for the first couple of rides.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 17, 2020, 01:19:58 pm
There are two issues with using other people’s loose application of a lockdown to justify your own loose application.

The first, and biggest, is that it only leads in one direction. And it ain’t the right one.

The second I need to think more about and perhaps model, but I suspect that if a decent minority of us execute a strict lockdown, then that can have a disproportionate impact on Ro, by breaking chains of infection. Think of if as trying to be the one domino that doesn’t fall...

I’m quite sympathetic to people going to work and thinking their business is essential when it’s not. People have to feed their families somehow.

Those of us fortunate enough to be in the position I am - stable job, work from home should try and be the domino that doesn’t fall, for everyone’s sake.


First point: Agree in principle, but only up to a point. There's a point in time - which it seems none of us can know for sure - beyond which you choosing to apply a very strict interpretation of lockdown will be like the last Japanese still fighting WWII in the jungle in 1948. Stoic, admirable and pointless - unless you just really like not doing much except working from home and not going climbing/traveling/surfing/mtn biking/clubbing/pubbing/shopping/socialising etc.
(I'm not suggesting we're at or near that point but we're moving in its direction).

Second point: Work-wise - if I wanted to look at things quantitively (and sound like a bit of a dick) then I'm potentially responsible for having more of an impact in reducing R0 than an office worker choosing to stay at home. I *could* have had teams working throughout this lockdown. I chose to stop all our work out of principle. That means I'm directly responsible for preventing 4 - 8 people interacting with who knows how many other people, over a period of the last 4 weeks and a further 3-4 weeks. So 8 weeks of 8 people interacting with who knows how many other people.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 17, 2020, 01:20:58 pm
The second I need to think more about and perhaps model, but I suspect that if a decent minority of us execute a strict lockdown, then that can have a disproportionate impact on Ro, by breaking chains of infection. Think of if as trying to be the one domino that doesn’t fall...

This would be interesting to know. My instinct is that it wouldn't have that disproportionate impact, but I wouldn't know where to start with building a model that knew enough about how people move around and interact to be able to produce something reliable on this Q.

Does anybody think, that even if we locked down to an actual house arrest scenario, we would actually defeat the virus?

OMM- I don't really get your point.  I think Stu's point on R is that this is like compound interest. Let's assume that a "cycle" is 7 days, after which people get symptoms and isolate to stop infecting. Let's say you want to get new cases down to <1% of where you started to then initiate a contact tracing phase. If R= 0.9 this takes ~45 cycles, i.e. ~45 weeks. If R = 0.5 this takes ~ 7 weeks... so locking down hard makes sense in almost all circumstances surely.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 17, 2020, 01:29:15 pm
Pete - I agree with everything you’ve written in that post.

Alex - that is exactly my point.  I really wish we’d just locked shit down hard and fast.

I just ran a very quick/crude model based on network theory where 30% of people restricted themselves to contacts only within their household, whilst the rest of the country did nothing. I assumed 25-30 contacts per day outside the household and 3-5 within. R0 dropped from 2.7 to 1.6, and the “effective” population size dropped by a third. So a small fraction of people doing their bit does make an impact.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on April 17, 2020, 01:33:24 pm
OMM - maybe the larger walls can work with this more easily by reducing the density of holds (e.g. one problem every 2-3 m wide) and limiting the entry..

This reduces the use per problem - and allows problems to be cleaned and allowed to be used etc..
If anything, increasing the density of problems would be better.

The more problems there are, the more people would be able to climb without sharing the same holds.

Or just get Johnny Dawes in and set loads of no handed slabs.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 17, 2020, 01:40:06 pm
R0 dropped from 2.7 to 1.6, and the “effective” population size dropped by a third. So a small fraction of people doing their bit does make an impact.

That's only a slightly disproportionate impact though right? 30% being rigorous = 40% reduction in R0 (vs intuition of 30%).. Does it get more disproportionate at lower numbers staying home, e.g. 10%?

EDIT: actually, 33% (relative) disproportionate impact on R0 probably is quite major if you articulate it that way
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 17, 2020, 01:45:22 pm
Nice examples of R0 changing over time (Hong Kong example in this article)

https://qz.com/1834700/rt-the-real-time-r0-guiding-how-to-lift-coronavirus-lockdowns/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fultonius on April 17, 2020, 01:58:56 pm
Any thoughts on sharing home walls (scheduled, limited to 1 person per time, maybe max 1 per day, wipe down afterwards?)

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 17, 2020, 02:03:22 pm
I would have thought wash hands thoroughly before and after, don't touch your face etc. Seems the virus doesn't do well in low humidity so I can't see it being present in big numbers after a night marinading in chalk.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 02:03:40 pm
The second I need to think more about and perhaps model, but I suspect that if a decent minority of us execute a strict lockdown, then that can have a disproportionate impact on Ro, by breaking chains of infection. Think of if as trying to be the one domino that doesn’t fall...

This would be interesting to know. My instinct is that it wouldn't have that disproportionate impact, but I wouldn't know where to start with building a model that knew enough about how people move around and interact to be able to produce something reliable on this Q.

Does anybody think, that even if we locked down to an actual house arrest scenario, we would actually defeat the virus?

OMM- I don't really get your point.  I think Stu's point on R is that this is like compound interest. Let's assume that a "cycle" is 7 days, after which people get symptoms and isolate to stop infecting. Let's say you want to get new cases down to <1% of where you started to then initiate a contact tracing phase. If R= 0.9 this takes ~45 cycles, i.e. ~45 weeks. If R = 0.5 this takes ~ 7 weeks... so locking down hard makes sense in almost all circumstances surely.


Ummm...

Because that lockdown would need to be global and/or our borders sealed after that, until such time as the virus was eradicated or “beaten”.

Resurgence is pretty damn likely and unless we developed an excellent testing and tracing and isolation protocol for all 68M of us and any visitors, we won’t get ahead of it.

That’s the findings of the study I linked to earlier.

Harsh lockdowns only resulted in higher peaks on resurgence.

This bitch wanders around almost unnoticed in most and for around two weeks in everybody who go on to develop symptoms.

Plus, we still don’t know the exact source.

Add to that, a harsh lockdown now, will make the later lockdowns harder to reinstate.

The current level is already wavering.

You actually think we can just eradicate it by house arrest?

 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/04/14/science.abb5793 (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/04/14/science.abb5793)


Oopps..

Caveat, incase we’re heading to pedantic stuff again, I’m assuming nobody is advocating permanent lockdowns.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 17, 2020, 02:17:29 pm
R0 dropped from 2.7 to 1.6, and the “effective” population size dropped by a third. So a small fraction of people doing their bit does make an impact.

That's only a slightly disproportionate impact though right? 30% being rigorous = 40% reduction in R0 (vs intuition of 30%).. Does it get more disproportionate at lower numbers staying home, e.g. 10%?

EDIT: actually, 33% (relative) disproportionate impact on R0 probably is quite major if you articulate it that way

I wouldn’t take the exact numbers too seriously, the model is far too crude. But it does illustrate that our efforts are not wasted, even if others don’t lock down as strictly. And an R0 drop of that size makes a MASSIVE difference.

The SAGE committee seems to think that R0 is currently between 0.5 and 1. What happens next will depend to an enormous degree about where we sit in that range. If it’s nearer 0.5 than 1, I’m pretty optimistic about being let out to play soon.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 17, 2020, 02:25:13 pm
So my rule is still simple; if there's a chance - even a small one - that you'd have more contact than walking round someone at a wide berth. Don't do it unless you absolutely need to.

This is where I think the non sequitur is. When you went out on your run/cycle there was a chance - even if only a small one - that you would contract the disease or in some way become a burden. You might have tripped on a tree root/loose paving slab/rabbit hole/discarded nuclear device and hurt yourself. You might have crashed your bike or been crashed into. You might have been overtaken by somebody and caught a lungful of their breath. Even if they were in their car with the passenger window open, a few viruses might have wafted your way. So I would say that you've broken your own rule if not the law or my own moral rules.

I don't want to pick on you because I think that everybody who is at the more hard line end of the spectrum on here has broken their own rules in some way. I don't even think that what you've done is wrong. The issue I have is saying that you expect X of yourself and others while actually doing just a bit less than X.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 17, 2020, 02:45:03 pm
Will, I suspect you are being a bit of a dick here for the sake of argument.

Is your point really that I cannot suggest that people get as close to possible as perfect, because I myself have not been completely perfect?

The point I thought was quite clear is that the risk from going out for a short walk run/jog etc really is extremely minimal. It's quite proper to say "try and take no more risk than that", without having to deal with the counterpoint, "ah, but the risk is not zero".

If we followed your version of "logic", we could not accept the merit of putting more gear in, because the gear might fail anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: highrepute on April 17, 2020, 02:48:24 pm
Any thoughts on sharing home walls (scheduled, limited to 1 person per time, maybe max 1 per day, wipe down afterwards?)

I always have to wipe down after a board session
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 17, 2020, 02:51:57 pm
In general (not going to crags to climb) I wonder if one of the real issues in the coming months will be getting those who've had it (or think they have) to comply with lockdown rules..

My (n=1) experience of this is in our road of 10 houses where three have probably had it and all been through isolation etc.. Everyone is careful - except one family who are far more blase than everyone else. OK - they're not taking the piss but certainly going out more than once a day - and going to the shops 2 or 3 times a week. In the grand scheme of things thats nothing compared to many - but I see it as part of the creeping breakdown of the lockdown(!?).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 17, 2020, 02:53:28 pm
UKC posted an article today that to me justifies going climbing if you want to, and definitely allows for JBs trips to the peak.

I assume its been correctly researched and states its not against the rules to drive out to somewhere to exercise but the journey should be less time than the exercise, climbing ticks this box i guess.

It says that whilst guidance does not state that climbing is allowed (yoga is apparently) it also doesn't specifically state it isn't.

You can go out more than once a day and you can go out for more than an hour.

I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.

Following new guidelines from government and the HSE we have lads out working again, only a few and all thoroughly risk assessed and controlled. We expect the numbers to increase each week with only the issue of accommodating stopping us. Applying what i know re this via work i cant see how going climbing shouldn't be allowed.

We need to be careful that if we apply our own rules to the situation, and act self-righteously, we will get left at the back of the list when it comes to re opening everything up. Talk of all the reasons we cant go, such as touching holds and leaving the virus on them (seems very unlikely to me) could be very counter productive in the long term.
 
And for what its worth cycling seems far more dangerous than climbing and a good friend in S&R backs that up by saying he goes pick up far more mountain bikers than climbers.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 17, 2020, 03:03:00 pm
I thought the title was quite clear though?

Quote
Lockdown Rules - Still Ambiguous, but the Right Thing is Clear
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 17, 2020, 03:06:00 pm
OMM - I think you've my point again. The lockdowns are to reduce new cases, presumably to a point where we hope that we can bubble along with contact tracing and and lighter rules, all whilst tracking R0 to some extent. They're not to reduce to a certain level and then say smash on with everything like normal, which of course leads to a big resurgence. I think we established that about page 2. Irrespective of whether you want to reduce new cases to 0%, 1% or 10% of where you're at, it's achieved insanely much faster by apparently small reductions in R0. You were responding to a post of Pete's that implied that R0<1 was key and why you might be more lenient with guidance, but that's still dumb until you're at the level you want because of how much quick you'll get there with a slightly lower R0. Weak lockdowns just mean it takes longer to get to a point where you can start playing with rules to find a good long-term balance.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on April 17, 2020, 03:07:01 pm

And for what its worth cycling seems far more dangerous than climbing and a good friend in S&R backs that up by saying he goes pick up far more mountain bikers than climbers.

As a climber and intermittently regular mountain biker and road biker my ancedotal view is that mountain biking has significantly higher risk of moderate to major injury than climbing while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing (particularly if road biking doesn't involve either bad weather conditions or heavy traffic)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 17, 2020, 03:08:40 pm
Is that the article titled 'Lockdown rules - still ambiguous but the right thing is clear '. If it is I have my doubts the author was trying to get across what you have taken from it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 17, 2020, 03:09:37 pm
Any thoughts on sharing home walls (scheduled, limited to 1 person per time, maybe max 1 per day, wipe down afterwards?)

I personally am not, even though the risk is remote, I don't anyone getting the wrong impression that we are having people round visiting, and thinking it's OK for them to do so too, even if said person is not actually entering our living space, only the garage.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 17, 2020, 03:12:19 pm
I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.

If I've understood your circumstances right (can easily get to a local crag that no other f*cker goes to and doesn't have lots of walkers nearby), then if I were in them I'd be going climbing now. But I'm in Sheffield, so I'll go fingerboarding instead and then moan about being shit and injured on the internet. Plus ca change.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 17, 2020, 03:12:55 pm
Will, I suspect you are being a bit of a dick here for the sake of argument.

Is your point really that I cannot suggest that people get as close to possible as perfect, because I myself have not been completely perfect?

The point I thought was quite clear is that the risk from going out for a short walk run/jog etc really is extremely minimal. It's quite proper to say "try and take no more risk than that", without having to deal with the counterpoint, "ah, but the risk is not zero".

If we followed your version of "logic", we could not accept the merit of putting more gear in, because the gear might fail anyway.


No need to call me a bit of a dick. I was simply taking what you'd written at face value. It would have been very easy to write this instead:

So my rule is still simple; if there's a significant chance - even a small one - that you'd have more contact than walking round someone at a wide berth. Don't do it unless you absolutely need to.

I assumed that you meant what you'd written, but I'm happy to clarify for you what your simple rule is  :P
As it happens, that is my rule too, and I too have been going beyond mere compliance because the law is shit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Coops_13 on April 17, 2020, 03:17:49 pm
The guidance in the USA re restarting the economy is interesting, gyms reopening earlier in the process than I'd have expected.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/
I've tried to decipher what that means for (outdoor) climbing here. I'm thinking it could fall in phase one but more likely could return in phase two (ethical discussions still relevant). However it hasn't stopped lots of people continue to climb over here   :whatever:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 17, 2020, 03:21:43 pm
Ah Will,  now I see what you mean. Sorry about the dick thing.

What you've written is not my rule either though. It would be better written as:

If there's a chance - even a small one - that you are more likely to come into contact with someone than you would going for a stroll somewhere quiet, think really hard about whether you really need to do that thing.

Isn't that easy?

Gav - I think you must have read the half of that UKC article that looks at what's legally OK, and not the bit in the black box that says please don't go out. Having said, that, there are situations where you could go climbing and satisfy my simple rule. As I've said before, if that applies to you then fill your boots.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 17, 2020, 03:26:10 pm
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 17, 2020, 04:00:22 pm
I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.

If I've understood your circumstances right (can easily get to a local crag that no other f*cker goes to and doesn't have lots of walkers nearby), then if I were in them I'd be going climbing now. But I'm in Sheffield, so I'll go fingerboarding instead and then moan about being shit and injured on the internet. Plus ca change.

Yep me too. Although rock rings are a depressing non substitute for a beastmaker, and I'm not injured, just shit.
Driving around Derbyshire at work, there appears to be a good level of compliance to the not driving out there advice / order.
There are a lot of police driving around, and were I tempted to go climbing I wouldn't fancy having to explain why that constituted minimal amount of time outside the house to them.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 17, 2020, 04:10:47 pm
UKC posted an article today that to me justifies going climbing if you want to, and definitely allows for JBs trips to the peak.

I assume its been correctly researched and states its not against the rules to drive out to somewhere to exercise but the journey should be less time than the exercise, climbing ticks this box i guess.

It says that whilst guidance does not state that climbing is allowed (yoga is apparently) it also doesn't specifically state it isn't.

You can go out more than once a day and you can go out for more than an hour.

I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.

Following new guidelines from government and the HSE we have lads out working again, only a few and all thoroughly risk assessed and controlled. We expect the numbers to increase each week with only the issue of accommodating stopping us. Applying what i know re this via work i cant see how going climbing shouldn't be allowed.

We need to be careful that if we apply our own rules to the situation, and act self-righteously, we will get left at the back of the list when it comes to re opening everything up. Talk of all the reasons we cant go, such as touching holds and leaving the virus on them (seems very unlikely to me) could be very counter productive in the long term.
 
And for what its worth cycling seems far more dangerous than climbing and a good friend in S&R backs that up by saying he goes pick up far more mountain bikers than climbers.

Just posted on a friend's FB about this.


The guidance wording is
''What's likely to be reasonable'':
''Exercise: *Including*: going for a run or cycle or practising yoga. Walking in the countryside or in cities. Attending an allotment.''

etc. etc.

I heard a Mr Jeremy C from Islington was lobbying for the allotment bit to be included..

Then there is a 'Not likely to be reasonable' column. For some sections (such as 'Work' or Driving') this has things listed. For 'Exercise' it is left blank.

Interpretation by police? Run, walk, cycle, yoga (and driving to do all) is 'likely to be reasonable', because the guidance says so.

Interpretation by many climbers and other 'outdoor recreators'? Climbing is (or will soon be) OK (within SD guidelines) because it isn't specifically listed in the 'not likely to be unreasonable' column.

If that's the logic, then it must also be true that other forms of exercise which aren't listed in the 'not likely to be reasonable' column', and which can be enjoyed solo or with your household member (and maintaining 2m SD if other participants are present), are also within the guidelines.
 
So:
parachuting, para-gliding, mountain biking, snooker, archery, badminton, clay pigeon shooting, darts, boxing (with household.. spouse etc.), axe-throwing (Gwynedd residents), sword-fighting (foil, epee and saber), medieval jousting, mountain marathons, motor sport, gymnastics (not synchronised floor routines unless housemate), swimming (not synchronised..etc.), tennis, tug-of-war, truck-pulling, weightlifting, bowling - crown green, ten-pin and boules, cross-country running, race-walking, field athletics events, competitive sheep shearing, sheepdog trials, kayaking, coracle racing, long-boat racing (household crews only), juggling, fire-walking, slacklining, base-jumping, skiing, roller-skiing, roller-blading, skateboarding, roller-skating, ice-skating, snowboarding, wake-boarding, grass-boarding, wind-surfing, surfing, sailing - dinghy class not multihull - unless household crew), geo-caching, orienteering, competitive chainsaw wood-carving, competitive tree-felling, competitive tree-climbing, ninja warrior (wearing gloves), golf.

All on a par with climbing right, because they aren't listed in the 'unlikely to be reasonable' column. Apologies if I missed anyone.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 17, 2020, 04:14:30 pm
Can we change to topic title to ‘Pedantry during Covid 19’ SARS Cov2

You’re welcome  ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 17, 2020, 04:44:15 pm

No need to call me a bit of a dick.


In the spirit of pedantry, he didn't call you bit of a dick, he said you were being a bit of a dick.

Former is an insult, the other is observing a ( hopefully temporary) course of action.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on April 17, 2020, 04:47:23 pm
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing  :)

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on April 17, 2020, 04:59:08 pm
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing  :)



And slightly more seriously it seems that quite a few people are keen to make the 'cycling is just as/more dangerous as climbing' point, I just really don't see any evidence for that, climbing is nowhere near as dangerous as your average lay person thinks but does involve some risk of injury in most of its forms.  Certainly travel insurance companies don't believe that, many will cover road cycling for no additional premium I haven't found any that cover climbing, bouldering or downhill mountain biking without significant additional premium.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 17, 2020, 05:02:16 pm

No need to call me a bit of a dick.


In the spirit of pedantry, he didn't call you bit of a dick, he said you were being a bit of a dick.

Former is an insult, the other is observing a ( hopefully temporary) course of action.

Unlikely. It's a congenital affliction.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 17, 2020, 05:10:18 pm

Gav - I think you must have read the half of that UKC article that looks at what's legally OK, and not the bit in the black box that says please don't go out. Having said, that, there are situations where you could go climbing and satisfy my simple rule. As I've said before, if that applies to you then fill your boots.

I did read it all and its the bit at the bottom in black that perturbs me. We (climbers) are making up our own rules that seem to be more stringent than they need to be and getting ourselves all worked up about it. If the rule really is that you can drive somewhere relatively local to exercise, and you can avoid being within 2 m of others i dont see the issue.

I really dont get the contact with holds thing outside. This could surely be covered the same way as opening a door, opening a gate, climbing a stile. Wash your hands after you climb and dont touch your face.

And i really do believe there is no difference in risk to going bouldering to cycling; road or mountain bike.

I think the focus is too much on it being non essential and not actually how much risk there is. If there is little to no risk of transmitting or catching the virus whether is essential or not is irrelevant.

I walk the dog every day from the house cross about 5 stiles and might see a couple of others. All within guidelines but more chance of getting the virus than driving out to a local crag 15 mins away where no one else has been.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 17, 2020, 05:13:16 pm
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing  :)



And slightly more seriously it seems that quite a few people are keen to make the 'cycling is just as/more dangerous as climbing' point, I just really don't see any evidence for that, climbing is nowhere near as dangerous as your average lay person thinks but does involve some risk of injury in most of its forms.  Certainly travel insurance companies don't believe that, many will cover road cycling for no additional premium I haven't found any that cover climbing, bouldering or downhill mountain biking without significant additional premium.

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 17, 2020, 05:29:09 pm
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing  :)



And slightly more seriously it seems that quite a few people are keen to make the 'cycling is just as/more dangerous as climbing' point, I just really don't see any evidence for that, climbing is nowhere near as dangerous as your average lay person thinks but does involve some risk of injury in most of its forms.  Certainly travel insurance companies don't believe that, many will cover road cycling for no additional premium I haven't found any that cover climbing, bouldering or downhill mountain biking without significant additional premium.

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.

In addition to that it appears that you can still ride your horse. The horse version of the BMC has said you need to minimize risk but leave the decision as to whether you ride or not up to the individual. i.e Dont do fast galloping and jumping.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on April 17, 2020, 05:32:46 pm

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.

Interesting , couldn't find any breakdown of stats, type of accident etc - certainly insurance companies don't agree but not sure how much detail info they have to make decisions on. 

You only have to go to Llandegla at the the weekend to see that mountain biking is significantly more dangerous than road biking, the ambulance is there most weekends.  My feeling is that I know a lot more people who have been injured requiring medical treatment climbing (broken ankles, upper body inuries, head injuries etc) than road biking, but as you say this just may be my perception.   And on mountain biking (by which I mean trail/lite downhill style) pretty much everybody I've ever biked with as had significant offs involving some sort of medical treatment from stitches right up top days spent in hospital,
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on April 17, 2020, 05:36:02 pm
And just to repeat I do agree that the risk aspect is a red herring - the main issue is social distancing, if we are allowed to go climbing where can we go that maintains social distancing given that everyone is desperate to get out?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 17, 2020, 05:37:58 pm
Quote from: gme

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.

Climb or ride faster is clearly the message here..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 17, 2020, 05:47:12 pm
@IanP

Travel insurers don’t really understand risk. One example: you pay less for a shorter trekking policy that goes to high altitude, whereas you’re less likely to get ill (and need evacuation/medical assistance) on a longer trip with more time to acclimatise. It’s perverse.

So I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from how they load policies that include cover you for climbing, compared to a mass participation activity such as cycling.

Anecdotally, adventure travel companies that run mountain biking trips have a lot of accidents.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on April 17, 2020, 05:55:51 pm
@IanP

Travel insurers don’t really understand risk. One example: you pay less for a shorter trekking policy that goes to high altitude, whereas you’re less likely to get ill (and need evacuation/medical assistance) on a longer trip with more time to acclimatise. It’s perverse.

So I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from how they load policies that include cover you for climbing, compared to a mass participation activity such as cycling.

Anecdotally, adventure travel companies that run mountain biking trips have a lot of accidents.

I'm not sure its correct to say that insurance companies don't understand risk, I would imagine their actuaries have much better understanding of the statistics and risk than your average layman, however I agree that they almost certainly don't have a detailed understanding of the relative risks for different aspects of niche activities.   

On the mountain biking anecdotal evidence, that doesn't surprise me at all! 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 17, 2020, 05:59:11 pm
I’m only talking specifically about travel insurance as that’s what I have direct experience of. If you mean the premiums would relate precisely to where the claims fall, I don’t think that’s necessarily the case bizarrely.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 17, 2020, 06:03:27 pm
Is anyone going to ride their (high) horse to the crag then? 😃

(Couldn’t resist - sorry!)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on April 17, 2020, 06:06:52 pm
What you've written is not my rule either though. It would be better written as:

If there's a chance - even a small one - that you are more likely to come into contact with someone than you would going for a stroll somewhere quiet, think really hard about whether you really need to do that thing.

Isn't that easy?

Gav - I think you must have read the half of that UKC article that looks at what's legally OK, and not the bit in the black box that says please don't go out. Having said, that, there are situations where you could go climbing and satisfy my simple rule. As I've said before, if that applies to you then fill your boots.

 :agree: I think Stu's written a lot of sense.

Worth mentioning that if you injure yourself while out for a walk / run / exercise in a city / town park / suburban area then you'll get picked up by an NHS ambulance (crew of 2 hopefully with adequate PPE).

If you injure yourself in a rural area / National Park etc. away from a roadhead you'll need an MR team. If it involves a stretcher carry (likely if you can't get to a roadhead) it'll need anywhere between 6 - 20+ people depending on the location. When they get you back to a roadhead, they'll pass you over the the ambulance crew that would have attended the first scenario. The MR personnel are all volunteers, many of whom will have families and might still be going into their place of work. The level of PPE they have will vary significantly by team but it is unlikely to be at the level the NHS have.

I couldn't agree more with the mental health aspect so if the benefit you get from national parks or similar significantly outweighs the benefits from more urban spaces then go for it. However, for the rest of this it's this 'small chance' of something happening that means we probably shouldn't be doing it for now.

Teams from Mountain Rescue England and Wales had 40 callouts over the Easter weekend. Their advice is still to avoid activities where their services might be required.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 17, 2020, 06:12:20 pm
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on April 17, 2020, 06:29:10 pm
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.

And if you break more than an ankle?

As for overseas trips to areas without MR teams the likelihood is you would still get support from other people, which in the middle of a global pandemic is still a problem.......

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 06:33:49 pm

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.

Interesting , couldn't find any breakdown of stats, type of accident etc - certainly insurance companies don't agree but not sure how much detail info they have to make decisions on. 

You only have to go to Llandegla at the the weekend to see that mountain biking is significantly more dangerous than road biking, the ambulance is there most weekends.  My feeling is that I know a lot more people who have been injured requiring medical treatment climbing (broken ankles, upper body inuries, head injuries etc) than road biking, but as you say this just may be my perception.   And on mountain biking (by which I mean trail/lite downhill style) pretty much everybody I've ever biked with as had significant offs involving some sort of medical treatment from stitches right up top days spent in hospital,

The attitude difference In the insurer, is not going to be purely predicated on the relative risk of the activity; it’s also going to be influenced by the punter’s perceived attitude to risk, I would have thought?
So, a climber might be perceived to have a greater tolerance of risk than a cyclist (regardless of the reality).

Then there’s the potential for rescue costs to spiral, as well (of course, that probably applies to MTB too) which seems less onerous (in general) for road cyclists?

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 06:40:26 pm
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.

That won’t wash.

Even if you decide not to call out the team, if you are overdue and missed/reported the team will be out anyway.

Broke my ankle in the Dolomites, some years ago and hobbled back to our camp/the road with my climbing partner’s assistance. Bloody hard going. Pre-mobile phones. Alone, it would have been near fatal and only about four miles over not too steep ground.

Edit:

Thank you for supporting my supposition about the potentially hazardous attitude to risk that might be present in climbers versus cyclists...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 17, 2020, 06:49:18 pm
All of this is a non argument. I could just as easily twist my ankle out walking the dog or twist a knee. I walk the dog away from the roads shall I not do that either.

I have broken bones and sprained ankles a few times climbing And never called out MR, and have witness others do the same.
I have seen a couple of bad ones That did need MR but minimal in 30+ years of going out.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 06:53:09 pm
All of this is a non argument. I could just as easily twist my ankle out walking the dog or twist a knee. I walk the dog away from the roads shall I not do that either.

I have broken bones and sprained ankles a few times climbing And never called out MR, and have witness others do the same.
I have seen a couple of bad ones That did need MR but minimal in 30+ years of going out.

That’s rubbish.

The MR teams are pretty damn busy and not only for silly call outs.
Just because you haven’t required them, doesn’t negate the argument, nor make it a non-argument.

Pure survivor bias.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 17, 2020, 06:55:06 pm
Just found out one of the neighbours fell off a ladder today and has broken his arm and ribs. My age as well not one of the old folks.

Maybe DIY should be banned as well, seems a lot more risky than climbing.

Didn’t need the MR though, it was in his garden.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 17, 2020, 06:58:50 pm
All of this is a non argument. I could just as easily twist my ankle out walking the dog or twist a knee. I walk the dog away from the roads shall I not do that either.

I have broken bones and sprained ankles a few times climbing And never called out MR, and have witness others do the same.
I have seen a couple of bad ones That did need MR but minimal in 30+ years of going out.

That’s rubbish.

The MR teams are pretty damn busy and not only for silly call outs.
Just because you haven’t required them, doesn’t negate the argument, nor make it a non-argument.

Pure survivor bias.
I didn’t say they were not busy, just said I have not used them despite breaking stuff. Always hobbled or hopped out and got myself to hospital as I suspect many in here have.
Wouldn’t have lived with the piss taking of having to call them.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 17, 2020, 07:02:58 pm
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.

That won’t wash.

Even if you decide not to call out the team, if you are overdue and missed/reported the team will be out anyway.

These aren’t normal times though are they? It’s not the law that you must be rescued! It’s a reasonable assumption that if you injure yourself in the UK hills at the moment you’re on your own. This idea that that makes hill walking too risky is ridiculous. There’s something very wrong if previously people were heading into the hills only willing to accept the risks with the safety net of the MR.

As Gav says I’m more likely to hurt myself around the house.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 07:15:12 pm
All of this is a non argument. I could just as easily twist my ankle out walking the dog or twist a knee. I walk the dog away from the roads shall I not do that either.

I have broken bones and sprained ankles a few times climbing And never called out MR, and have witness others do the same.
I have seen a couple of bad ones That did need MR but minimal in 30+ years of going out.

That’s rubbish.

The MR teams are pretty damn busy and not only for silly call outs.
Just because you haven’t required them, doesn’t negate the argument, nor make it a non-argument.

Pure survivor bias.
I didn’t say they were not busy, just said I have not used them despite breaking stuff. Always hobbled or hopped out and got myself to hospital as I suspect many in here have.
Wouldn’t have lived with the piss taking of having to call them.

And if your twisted ankle had lead on to an awkward fall and suspected spinal?

Toby on the Catwalk?

Quite a few crags would require specialist rescue, even from the base.

This is much less likely walking the dog.

I have a friend, who managed to fall 400ft, off a certain Highland peak/ridge “walking his dog”, but he was a prime example of that attitude to risk I was talking about.

Yes, you are probably more likely to snap your spine in the shower/bath.
Yes, that would require specialist rescue.
But, in that instance, the FB are better set up for that than an MRT will be, at least in terms of PPE and controlling any potential infection aspect to the rescue.
Ditto for snapped femur in the park.

Shit, we’re all pissed off with this crap. Today’s rain has me sat on the friggin couch and mentally climbing the walls.
But, we just aren’t getting out again until the lockdown is lifted. Whether that’s “right” or “wrong” in our eyes is irrelevant and I just can’t see “climbing” as an easy sell to “the Man” as a low risk exercise option.

Cycling stats, by the way, are heavily clouded by commuter cycling and even several million kids bombing around like dickheads.
Not really sure how comparable the activities are?
Anyone climb to their place of work, normally?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 17, 2020, 07:18:33 pm
Shall we re-run the poll on this thread?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 17, 2020, 07:20:54 pm
Yes!
(although I’ll probably be undecided again)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 17, 2020, 07:24:54 pm
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.

That won’t wash.

Even if you decide not to call out the team, if you are overdue and missed/reported the team will be out anyway.

These aren’t normal times though are they? It’s not the law that you must be rescued! It’s a reasonable assumption that if you injure yourself in the UK hills at the moment you’re on your own. This idea that that makes hill walking too risky is ridiculous. There’s something very wrong if previously people were heading into the hills only willing to accept the risks with the safety net of the MR.

As Gav says I’m more likely to hurt myself around the house.

Go for it.

Seriously.

If you’re really not bothered. Just don’t tell anyone where you’re going.

The local NPAS Helo has been doing Misper searches, almost back to back, around here the last few weeks; just on the various mental health casualties. Pretty sure none of them called it out themselves...

Sarcasm aside, I really do think you can go out if you want to.

As I mentioned, several times, you might have to explain that, to someone less sympathetic than than this forum.
You might not mean to, but you
 might trigger a full scale search/rescue, even if you aren’t injured (remember the surfer, that witnesses just “thought” was in trouble?).

So, if you’re going, be careful, and keep your head down.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 18, 2020, 08:58:30 am
Devon and Cornwall police issued this statement. It pertains to questions regarding surfing, but it seems to also reasonably apply to climbing.
I don’t expect other forces to differ significantly.

The pertinent paragraph:

“There has been much discussion around what the legislation does and doesn’t specifically prohibit. The legal aspects of the legislation are based upon whether a person’s actions are reasonable or not. Officers will continue to make individual judgements based on the specific circumstances presented to them.

The key to making this work for everyone in Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, and across the country, is for everyone to be reasonable. If you can exercise with a run or a walk near your home, it is reasonable for you to do so. Our interpretation is that it is not reasonable, for the majority, to drive miles to a specific place such as a beauty spot. It is also not within the spirit of what we are trying to achieve if you drive from Devon to the coast of Cornwall for surfing, regardless of whether that is “lawful” or not.

We are grateful that our communities understand what we are all trying to achieve together and are supporting us with this. Enforcement will only be used as a last resort. Officers will continue to use discretion and police with consent.

We enjoy the relationship we have with our communities and will continue to engage with people we meet, to provide reassurance and education at this challenging time.”

From their advice to the local paper:

 https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/devon-cornwall-police-answer-every-4053268 (https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/devon-cornwall-police-answer-every-4053268)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on April 18, 2020, 12:25:22 pm
@IanP

Travel insurers don’t really understand risk. One example: you pay less for a shorter trekking policy that goes to high altitude, whereas you’re less likely to get ill (and need evacuation/medical assistance) on a longer trip with more time to acclimatise. It’s perverse.

So I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from how they load policies that include cover you for climbing, compared to a mass participation activity such as cycling.

Anecdotally, adventure travel companies that run mountain biking trips have a lot of accidents.

I'm not sure its correct to say that insurance companies don't understand risk, I would imagine their actuaries have much better understanding of the statistics and risk than your average layman, however I agree that they almost certainly don't have a detailed understanding of the relative risks for different aspects of niche activities.   

I’m only talking specifically about travel insurance as that’s what I have direct experience of. If you mean the premiums would relate precisely to where the claims fall, I don’t think that’s necessarily the case bizarrely.

I'm a life/pensions actuary, not a general insurance actuary, but the concepts are similar enough when it comes to setting premiums. So, firstly (and possibly me being pedantic), it's not bizarre the premiums don't relate to precisely where claims fall - that wouldn't be insurance. Insurance is the pooling of risk, so premiums should broadly reflect risk but there is a limit to how accurate that can be - if the premiums related precisely to where claims fall, you might as well not insure since you're paying your own claim cost and the insurer's expenses and profit margin.

Secondly, insurers/actuaries do understand risk, but they also understand statistics/data and its limitations. Where a factor (time in this case) is identifiable as a rating factor, if the data shows that it generates a statistically credible difference in the level of risk on the policy and they are allowed to differentiate/discriminate between policyholders on that basis, they will use it in the setting of premium. It's in their commercial interests to do so - if they use that factor and their competitor doesn't, they will get a competitive advantage and vice versa. So, if they charge more in premium for a long trip than a short trip (not sure if you mean per unit of time or not), it's most likely because the data says it's more risky. I can't really comment on why the data would say that, but one example might be the way that trekking policies are grouped with other risks due to lack of credible data.

So yes, the loadings for different activities can be quite broad brush, but they are based on experience and if they were massively out of line with the rest of the market they wouldn't get any business and competitive pressure would move them back into line.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 18, 2020, 12:40:00 pm
I can't really comment on why the data would say that, but one example might be the way that trekking policies are grouped with other risks due to lack of credible data.

Presumably if you have limited data, it would be v easy to group all trekking policies together, see that longer = more risk, but not spot that this doesn't hold for specific sub-sets of policies. Especially as I guess people may be going on extended trips where time trekking is not equal to length of policy, so the data all becomes quite jumbled...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on April 18, 2020, 01:44:09 pm
I can't really comment on why the data would say that, but one example might be the way that trekking policies are grouped with other risks due to lack of credible data.

Presumably if you have limited data, it would be v easy to group all trekking policies together, see that longer = more risk, but not spot that this doesn't hold for specific sub-sets of policies. Especially as I guess people may be going on extended trips where time trekking is not equal to length of policy, so the data all becomes quite jumbled...

Exactly that. I haven't got a feel for the size of the trekking insurance policy market on its own, but my guess would be that it won't generate credible experience on its own and will be grouped with other, similar-ish risks. If you think that you're also trying to split claim experience by policyholder age, location, etc., getting credible data in each of your cells requires a lot of data and therefore, grouping of risk types. Often, you will need to reduce the number of rating factors to maintain credibility, so you keep the best predictors. That's why car insurance can have so many more rating factors, because there's so much more data to start with.

And, as you say, the data can easily be jumbled. Having a longer policy doesn't explicitly mean you are going to get acclimatised, only in some situations. Risks like that are difficult to underwrite.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fatboyslimfast2 on April 20, 2020, 07:26:51 am
So we have argued, we have gone round in circles, its got a bit heated at times but generally people are not climbing.....
So as the curve flattens, as restrictions are vaguely lifted (interestingly in Germany there was no restrictions on climbing ) when do we feel it is ok to go out again? When travel is relaxed, when people are working again.....when ?
Would it just be bouldering on your lonesome? Sport? Necky gear climbing? Grit E7?

As a side issueI was out above Stoney yesterday, went up Coombse dale to black harry gate and beyond to Longstone, a route that on a normal weekend you would see tops 3 people. I was at Black Harry gate and it was like a commuter route, at least 30 bikes passed me in 15 mins.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Hydraulic Man on April 20, 2020, 08:06:37 am
Interestingly there were complaints in Great Longstone over the weekend about the amount of cyclists passing through the village.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: moose on April 20, 2020, 08:36:35 am
I've been walking on Ilkley Moor during the last few weekends.  Yesterday there was a definite increase in numbers.  The Cow & Calf parking area is still closed but the lay-bys and pull-ins were all full of cars.  Previously the people I saw on the Moor generally had the look of ramblers and fell runners; yesterday, there seemed to be far more families with bags of food and drink sitting around and not venturing far (and lots more cheap looking "fashion" wear to be horribly snobbish).  I suspect the recent announcements on driving to take exercise being reasonable has had an effect and people are now feeling it's okay to travel into the countryside from the towns and cities .
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fatneck on April 20, 2020, 08:37:34 am
We drove to the Wirral yesterday (c. 20minutes) for a 2 hour walk. Was blissful to have a different view for a change and by way of some possibly weak justification - my mental health was significantly improved by 10+ swallows (first of the year) Linnets, Dunlin, Whitethroat (also first of the year), Blackcaps and Chiffies...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: JamieG on April 20, 2020, 09:25:47 am
Lovely. The birds in the park are definitely good for helping preserve my mental health. Saw a couple dippers on the river recently which are my one of my favourites. And even the ubiquitous mallards and their ducklings are providing welcome relief. No swallows yet, but I have been keeping an eye out for them. Always feels good when they arrive back.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 20, 2020, 09:36:39 am
I've been walking on Ilkley Moor during the last few weekends.  Yesterday there was a definite increase in numbers.  The Cow & Calf parking area is still closed but the lay-bys and pull-ins were all full of cars.  Previously the people I saw on the Moor generally had the look of ramblers and fell runners; yesterday, there seemed to be far more families with bags of food and drink sitting around and not venturing far (and lots more cheap looking "fashion" wear to be horribly snobbish).  I suspect the recent announcements on driving to take exercise being reasonable has had an effect and people are now feeling it's okay to travel into the countryside from the towns and cities .

Definitely echoes my experience on a long walk straight from home yesterday. Car park at the top of the valley rammed, loads of families out, very little commitment to keeping distance from probably the majority of people we passed - this bit I just couldn't get, I mean how clearly has it been stated that we need to keep 2m apart?! Didn't see anyone sitting with a picnic at least. Felt like the nice weather had caused lock-down fatigue to spill over quite a bit, not helped by the poor messaging from the Government. Hopefully just a weekend thing so damage won't be too bad for the overall curve / effort? 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ged on April 20, 2020, 10:27:16 am
Re the Pirmin thing: yes he's made himself look a total prick in the way he has communicated his activities (Again. See also: whining when Ondra downgraded his route) But climbing locally with his wife on a quiet sector in the woods is perfectly ok under Bavarian lockdown rules & explicitly confirmed as such by the polizei.

[/quote]

I think it was probably the way he talked about it being justifiable because it is his "job", that irked me.  As though that makes it more justifiable for him than others.  My job is to try and teach uninterested teenags about Physics, but I'm not allowed to do it at the moment, even if the conditions are amazing.

On a slight tangent, and something which made me think he was even more of a nob, was the fact he was wearing a face mask.  Assuming it wasn;t for comic effect, to me it confirmed the dangers of using masks.  Seems liek one of those situations where people would blindly follow a rule, and thus throw all common sense out of the window, thus making the situation more dangerous than it otherwise would be.  Like the more likely to have a bike crash if wearing a helmet theory.  If you really think that wearing a mask negates the risks posed from driving away from where you live etc, you clearly don't understand what the risks really are, and how to negate them.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 20, 2020, 10:33:36 am
Hard to say if the mask is for effect, or if he thinks it's making any difference to spreading. Not sure what makes him a bigger knob.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 20, 2020, 11:09:18 am
Much busier here this weekend but obviously in comparative terms. Must have passed 20-30 people on my normal dog walk where as I saw two this morning.
And I suggest there is actually more cyclists than I have ever seen. I talked to one lad who had a puncture outside my house and he was 40+ miles from home already and wasn’t heading back yet.

I am not in anyway having a go at the cyclist, the opposite in fact, he was having a great day out and I don’t feel causing any issues. Climbing (BMC) needs to start having a conversation as to why we should be allowed back out and start looking to get away from this self flagellation. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 20, 2020, 11:39:20 am
So we have argued, we have gone round in circles, its got a bit heated at times but generally people are not climbing.....
So as the curve flattens, as restrictions are vaguely lifted (interestingly in Germany there was no restrictions on climbing ) when do we feel it is ok to go out again? When travel is relaxed, when people are working again.....when ?

You'll know when that is easily enough. It'll start raining and not stop.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 20, 2020, 11:50:43 am
Much busier here this weekend but obviously in comparative terms. Must have passed 20-30 people on my normal dog walk where as I saw two this morning.

Same here but but it was confined locally to the town and surrounding villages (i.e. most likely people doing entirely reasonable things), a few miles onto the moors and there wasn't a soul as per usual (I did have to laugh at the "Go home, stay home" sign next to a farm track; you couldn't see the farm or any other signs of civilisation from the road).

The Hangar recently posted this if it's of interest:
https://gym.vertical-life.info/articles/covid-19-risk-mitigation-in-climbing-gyms-setting-up-a-european-strategy?fbclid=IwAR2pyXTTfGZL5xz8h8pK3JtBqk0rHOGUu_b4-ntdQuNcFV1p9qqj74H4vfY
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 20, 2020, 11:58:15 am

You'll know when that is easily enough. It'll start raining and not stop.

Plus we will get midges, haar and sea grease.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 20, 2020, 11:59:44 am
Much busier here this weekend but obviously in comparative terms. Must have passed 20-30 people on my normal dog walk where as I saw two this morning.

Same here but but it was confined locally to the town and surrounding villages (i.e. most likely people doing entirely reasonable things), a few miles onto the moors and there wasn't a soul as per usual (I did have to laugh at the "Go home, stay home" sign next to a farm track; you couldn't see the farm or any other signs of civilisation from the road).

The Hangar recently posted this if it's of interest:
https://gym.vertical-life.info/articles/covid-19-risk-mitigation-in-climbing-gyms-setting-up-a-european-strategy?fbclid=IwAR2pyXTTfGZL5xz8h8pK3JtBqk0rHOGUu_b4-ntdQuNcFV1p9qqj74H4vfY

I nearly  posted that earlier, but it’s still a very early draft and is so contingent on the German faith that this is not spread through contact.
So, I wanted to read more before asking what people thought.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 20, 2020, 12:25:13 pm
Climbing (BMC) needs to start having a conversation as to why we should be allowed back out and start looking to get away from this self flagellation.

To be fair on them, they are trying. I am in email conversation with the BMC who have been in contact with the police in England and Wales and various other organisations such as DEFRA. So far as I can see, every government organisation has a different interpretation of the law and or guidance, sometimes they have different interpretations within organisations.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 20, 2020, 01:20:32 pm
Who'd have thought that different people would have varying interpretations of what is "reasonable" and what constitutes a "need"?  :shrug:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 20, 2020, 01:26:53 pm
Climbing (BMC) needs to start having a conversation as to why we should be allowed back out and start looking to get away from this self flagellation.

To be fair on them, they are trying. I am in email conversation with the BMC who have been in contact with the police in England and Wales and various other organisations such as DEFRA. So far as I can see, every government organisation has a different interpretation of the law and or guidance, sometimes they have different interpretations within organisations.

I wasnt having a go at the BMC, sorry if it came over like that. I was suggesting we (climbers) need to change our tone from finding reasons we cant go climbing and berating those who do, to an approach based on why we can go.  The BMC are just there as our voice.

I have had the same issue with work. We stopped immediately, analysed what we were being told and what we are doing and now this has been done are slowly returning to work where we can. Our approach to clients has gone from we cant come due to xyz to we can come due to xyz. This push has now been backed with statements from the HSE, the industry and the government.

I think climbers are in danger of talking ourselves into a longer lock down than is needed. With voluntary control measures in place i think we could be getting back out in 3-4 weeks and country's like Germany prove its possible. I know we are going back over old ground but despite what some might say cyclists are having a field day and the only thing that they have lost is going out in groups. I see little reason that this could not be true of climbing. Yes you might find the crag you wanted to go to is busy already so you have to go to another. Not to much to ask.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 20, 2020, 01:36:24 pm
I think you underestimate people's propensity for stupidity. Can you see someone parking up, walking to Bowden, walking the length of the crag with a select guide, trying to find a route they can climb, while maintaining social distancing, going nah it's too crowded, packing up and driving up Kyloe In (or wherever) instead, and doing the same thing?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 20, 2020, 01:48:13 pm
despite what some might say cyclists are having a field day and the only thing that they have lost is going out in groups. I see little reason that this could not be true of climbing. Yes you might find the crag you wanted to go to is busy already so you have to go to another. Not to much to ask.

People just don't do this reliably.

I think you underestimate people's propensity for stupidity...

Last year at a crag local to me there was a group pf people there with their dogs. The access gate (which is never open) has a "no dogs sign" there's a sign concreted in about 10m from the climbing (again "no dogs") and when challenged responded that "Well I know that now, but I'm here, what do you expect me to do, leave?" (it was too hot to leave the dog in the car).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 02:04:05 pm
But it will presumably be the case that we have to deal with this for the rest of 2020 at least. A month or two wont change that. So your alternative solution would just be not to climb outside for the whole of the year. Fuck that. There will need to be new norms, policed by the community, like bird bans, or hogging routes.

Presumably the new rule will be: if people are there and you'd be climbing within X metres of them, go elsewhere. There may be other rules around not climbing at certain venues with dodgy access, or not climbing if it makes life hard for walkers (e.g. the cornice may be problematic, as there's a path at the bottom of it), or not climbing on other people's draws... I think what gav is saying is that he hopes the BMC are working on providing answers to these questions - solutions that are workable, easily communicated, maximise safety without being absurdly restricted etc.. It will rely on people not being dicks, e.g. "I know you were here first but I'm going to climb anyway, so if you don't like it you'll need to leave". I imagine there will be some nasty arguments and public shaming, for better or worse. I imagine travelling to a crag a notable drive away will be risky, unless you have 10 good bail options planned out for if people are already there.

The alternative is that the BMC take the view that the only way to minimise stupidity is to say "no climbing until this is all over", which means 2021/2022? But if that's the case most serious climbers will just ignore them and the community will create its own rules, probably with more fighting, public shaming and shitstorms than if the BMC is involved. That being said, if the BMC stick to a "no climbing" rule keeps half the climbers away from the crags then maybe it will be worth it.

Climbing with lamps at night or getting up at 4am may be worthwhile to minimise chances of meeting people at the crag (at suitable venues obvs)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 20, 2020, 02:12:37 pm
But it will presumably be the case that we have to deal with this for the rest of 2020 at least. A month or two wont change that. So your alternative solution would just be not to climb outside for the whole of the year. Fuck that. There will need to be new norms, policed by the community, like bird bans, or hogging routes.

Presumably the new rule will be: if people are there and you'd be climbing within X metres of them, go elsewhere. There may be other rules around not climbing at certain venues with dodgy access, or not climbing if it makes life hard for walkers (e.g. the cornice may be problematic, as there's a path at the bottom of it), or not climbing on other people's draws... I think what gav is saying is that he hopes the BMC are working on providing answers to these questions - solutions that are workable, easily communicated, maximise safety without being absurdly restricted etc.. It will rely on people not being dicks, e.g. "I know you were here first but I'm going to climb anyway, so if you don't like it you'll need to leave". I imagine there will be some nasty arguments and public shaming, for better or worse. I imagine travelling to a crag a notable drive away will be risky, unless you have 10 good bail options planned out for if people are already there.

The alternative is that the BMC take the view that the only way to minimise stupidity is to say "no climbing until this is all over", which means 2021/2022? But if that's the case most serious climbers will just ignore them and the community will create its own rules, probably with more fighting, public shaming and shitstorms than if the BMC is involved. That being said, if the BMC stick to a "no climbing" rule keeps half the climbers away from the crags then maybe it will be worth it.

Climbing with lamps at night or getting up at 4am may be worthwhile to minimise chances of meeting people at the crag (at suitable venues obvs)

Wardens.

😱


Well, we’re going to have to learn to live with it, so maybe a “BMC volunteer crag warden” scheme?

Because, as you know, the British public so respect such things...

🤦🏻‍♂️

Kidding aside, there’s plenty of ways to make climbing work within the context of social distancing etc. All rely on people being sensible and cooperative.

This is about as likely as Andorra bagging all the Golds at the next Olympics (whenever that might be) and winning the World Cup, with their 5 a side team and a couple of ageing Nuns.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 02:25:52 pm
No, not wardens, just people being told they're being dicks if they're being dicks. We all know that serious climbers aren't going to spend all of 2020 not going climbing, so coming up with sensible shit that works is a lot better than just saying fuck it, it wont work, we'd better just not climb. I appreciate that for half of the forum this doesn't matter because they don't go climbing that much anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 20, 2020, 02:37:27 pm
despite what some might say cyclists are having a field day and the only thing that they have lost is going out in groups. I see little reason that this could not be true of climbing. Yes you might find the crag you wanted to go to is busy already so you have to go to another. Not to much to ask.

People just don't do this reliably.

I think you underestimate people's propensity for stupidity...

Whether this is true or not is not the point, what we need to be telling the government is that we can self regulate and then do our best to do so. Climbers are generally pretty good with a small minority who are dicks. Just needs a bit of self policing.

Could UKC/rockfax app be quickly adapted to allow people to log there arrival and departure at a crag so people can have an idea of whos there.



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 20, 2020, 02:40:08 pm
So your alternative solution would just be not to climb outside for the whole of the year. Fuck that. There will need to be new norms, policed by the community, like bird bans, or hogging routes.

The...

Ignoring GME's quote fail, that doesn't sound too daft but I had a climber this morning ask me what the RAD is  :o.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 02:44:56 pm
The...

Arbitrary. We both know it wont happen unless a lockdown stricter than this is in place for the whole year.

I think that suggestion would be too open to abuse - e.g. log  that you're there when you set off from home to discourage others from going. Plus doesn't work if no signal. Better to just treat every day as a sketchy conditions day where you might have to bail to somewhere else.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 20, 2020, 02:48:10 pm

Could UKC/rockfax app be quickly adapted to allow people to log there arrival and departure at a crag so people can have an idea of whos there.

Possible, if you include route / problem they intend working on, duration of stay. Maybe book slots for your preferred routes? 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 20, 2020, 02:51:12 pm
So we are looking at ways that we could get out climbing again and you think that someone would actually lie that they were at a crag to stop others going? Do you think climbers are actually that low?

It would only be as a guide and might help people make a choice. People log there routes so not a big step further to log when they are there. They could also comment if others not on the app are.

I am just trying to think of ways to get us out again. I dont see it being a problem for me to be honest as i could just go now but would prefer it to be official as to not fuck off any access arrangements etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 02:55:36 pm
So we are looking at ways that we could get out climbing again and you think that someone would actually lie that they were at a crag to stop others going? Do you think climbers are actually that low?

Yes, totally. I think just have the rule of "if you'd be within X metres of others then go elsewhere". Although obviously I'd still get up at 5am to get to the crag first "to stop others going"... if that makes me a bad person then I'll pray for forgiveness between attempts.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 20, 2020, 03:12:46 pm
I am just trying to think of ways to get us out again. I dont see it being a problem for me to be honest as i could just go now but would prefer it to be official as to not fuck off any access arrangements etc.

It wouldn't be a problem for me either, but I just have a deep concern that if the BMC change to anything other than their current stance, the honeypot crags and mountains will be overrun on the first weekend we are "allowed out" and Stanage, Bowden, Snowdon and Ben Nevis (for example) will be overrun, along with Mountain Rescue etc being back to dealing with a massive influx.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 20, 2020, 03:34:53 pm
I tend to agree with Alex that the status quo cannot hold for the rest of the year. Once people are allowed out at all people will start climbing again. I think the community policing thing is the best suggestion yet but will 100% lead to rows at the crag. Plenty will arrive and refuse to leave even if the crag is at capacity. Not convinced by a booking system as people just wont use it, will object to the principle or turn up on a whim. Has to be led by the community with a group telling someone their behaviour isnt on. Kilnsey parking farrago a few years back a good example of how this can work. BMC put a sign there but it was only people telling others off for parking in the wrong place that got the message across, and it seems to have sunk in.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 20, 2020, 03:42:40 pm
I tend to agree with Alex that the status quo cannot hold for the rest of the year.

This is why I pedantically corrected his language; I completely agree and I'm not suggesting it will or should just that people (myself included) can be complete morons at times.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 20, 2020, 03:55:11 pm
I’m amazed this is being discussed with intent as opposed to hypotheticals (as it appears to me at least). 

We are on course to be the worst affected country in Europe - quite possibly in the world per capita (once it’s over) and our ability to go outside to climb on rocks is that important? I fully expect us to have one of the longest lasting and multi peaked lockdowns going given how our totals are climbing and climbing. There’s a long long way to go yet.

If there’s a grand plan of what should be allowed to happen next - climbing on rocks is a surely a long long way down the list. And I’d argue rightly so.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 20, 2020, 04:05:35 pm
Come on TT thats not what we are doing at all. We are all aware of the situation and supporting it.

What i am suggesting is we need to have a plan to put forward why climbing should be allowed when things are allowed to ease off. All sports will be doing exactly the same. I personally dont think we are that different to going cycling and walking.

I agree it comes a longway down the list of priorities but i also think it sits right at the bottom of the risk list as well. They are going to have to loosen off the lock down at some time and it should be done based on risk not just priority.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 04:12:30 pm
This is why I pedantically corrected his language; I completely agree and I'm not suggesting it will or should just that people (myself included) can be complete morons at times.

Ah, I get your point now. I thought the "your"/"the" thing was you implying that it was the (i.e. the only) other option, not saying that you didn't necessarily support than option, in which case you're right it's not arbitrary  :oops:

Tomtom - given we just had the CPS guidance that means that driving to the crag to climb might well already be allowed, I don't see why the conversation amazes you. I could replace "climbing" in your post with "walking", "cycling", or any other activity that is not in the house or that economically useful. Or are we only to be allowed to do economically useful things when the lockdown lifts slightly, even if they're safe? F that.

+1 to gav's post
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 20, 2020, 04:18:09 pm
Fair enough Gav - I’m glad that’s the case.

Reading the posts from newest to oldest - having come to the thread after a few hours - it came across to me a a bit like it was all getting a bit carried away!!

It’s good the BmC are having conversations with the police/govt about when/how it can come back.

Until we can all mix freely as we could before March it’s going to lead to a load of awkward situations at crags (with climbers and non climbers) if the law/interpretation is relaxed...

Maybe things will even be easier and less weekend orientated (with associated crowds at honeypots) with a large percentage of the population not working/furloughed...

Shrugs.

Maybe my response is because of how I’ve packaged it. Put climbing outdoors away in a box not to be opened (or thought about opening) for a while. 

Edit: Barrows - just saw your post. I think it’s worth putting the conversation in context - as above it seemed to be running away a bit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 04:24:05 pm
Until we can all mix freely as we could before March it’s going to lead to a load of awkward situations at crags (with climbers and non climbers) if the law/interpretation is relaxed...

Yes, that's the point right. It's not going to go back to normal until it goes back to normal... which is a fuck long of a way off (2021? 2022?)... so we'll need to work out some solutions that allow us to have as much fun as possible while minimising risk. It will be shitter than normal, but less shit than the alternative. This is what everyone will be trying to work out - airlines, shops, restaurants, etc. How do you make it as unshit as possible while minimising risk. Not having those conversations will only make it more awkward because fewer people will be on the same wavelength when the inevitable does happen and multiple people rock up at the same crags.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 20, 2020, 04:29:52 pm
Almost all of the discussion around this topic (that of leaving home for exercise) has been self-centred. People wondering what it means for them and demanding that others do the same. We've seen that in the climbing discussion where folk like Jim have taken the position that if he can't go climbing then nobody else should be allowed (I'm paraphrasing a bit, I know), and others have very begrudgingly and very disdainfully taken the view that "if you can't control yourself then fill your boots at walking-distance-from-your-house lowball Windy Choss Clough" (paraphrasing again)  - i.e. recognising that there's no harm but making it clear that they think you're a tool for even considering it - because this is a time for national suffering and everyone should suffer as much as possible goddammit.

We're chastising people for making short car journeys to exercise, but what if you're a vulnerable person who has to get out to walk the dog and doesn't have a big back garden? Why not make that short drive to nearby countryside so that you can exercise in the lowest-risk environment possible. If these allowances are to be made, it should be the most at risk who are allowed to take advantage of them first.


You lot are only all worried because for you, climbing takes place at Malham or not at all. For y'all and the other 90% of climbers who would rather not climb than visit Sypeland, I wish you the very best of luck.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 20, 2020, 04:33:22 pm
So we are looking at ways that we could get out climbing again and you think that someone would actually lie that they were at a crag to stop others going? Do you think climbers are actually that low?

Yes, totally. I think just have the rule of "if you'd be within X metres of others then go elsewhere". Although obviously I'd still get up at 5am to get to the crag first "to stop others going"... if that makes me a bad person then I'll pray for forgiveness between attempts.

It's around about at this point in the debate that a quick 'I told you so' is warranted, aimed at those who were all for the BMC increasing participation in climbing. More overall participation = more overall dicks.

Anyway back to debating about coughing on all the holds on your proj to stop anyone else hogging it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 20, 2020, 04:57:03 pm
Almost all of the discussion around this topic (that of leaving home for exercise) has been self-centred. People wondering what it means for them and demanding that others do the same. We've seen that in the climbing discussion where folk like Jim have taken the position that if he can't go climbing then nobody else should be allowed (I'm paraphrasing a bit, I know), and others have very begrudgingly and very disdainfully taken the view that "if you can't control yourself then fill your boots at walking-distance-from-your-house lowball Windy Choss Clough" (paraphrasing again)  - i.e. recognising that there's no harm but making it clear that they think you're a tool for even considering it - because this is a time for national suffering and everyone should suffer as much as possible goddammit.

We're chastising people for making short car journeys to exercise, but what if you're a vulnerable person who has to get out to walk the dog and doesn't have a big back garden? Why not make that short drive to nearby countryside so that you can exercise in the lowest-risk environment possible. If these allowances are to be made, it should be the most at risk who are allowed to take advantage of them first.


You lot are only all worried because for you, climbing takes place at Malham or not at all. For y'all and the other 90% of climbers who would rather not climb than visit Sypeland, I wish you the very best of luck.

I'm not sure that's fair on a number of levels, taking into account your admission of paraphrasing. We are talking about a hypothetical future, at least three weeks away and possibly longer, and brainstorming ideas about how things could pan out. The position right now is clearly very different from that.

For the avoidance of all doubt, I think if you can walk to climbing that has no access issues and is pretty quiet then I would crack on. From memory I think I'm on the same page as Stu on that point. If we take a hypothetical person who can walk to a popular crag with access concerns, then no, I don't think they should climb. Others think differently. As we've discussed in another thread, I also think there is a community/solidarity aspect to this, which you disagree with. To a certain extent that is informing my opinion that for the greater good we should all suck it up for now so we can all enjoy it again down the line. I am pretty confident that I would think this even if I lived within walking distance of a crag, popular or not.

You know as well as me that climbing is more than one limestone crag for me and many others!

Anyway, this has all been covered over god knows how many times and everyone has their view on the ethics of climbing right this second. What we're talking about is how things might pan out and a community "policing" concept seems the most logical thus far.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on April 20, 2020, 05:01:54 pm
If you cough on the right hold at almscliff, you could baggsy about 10 boulder problems for the day. Got to be tactical about this.

If you are a vulnerable person, you have been told(advised?) to stay in your house for the next 9 weeks anyway and shouldn't be walking your dog.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 20, 2020, 05:17:43 pm
For the avoidance of all doubt, I think if you can walk to climbing that has no access issues and is pretty quiet then I would crack on. From memory I think I'm on the same page as Stu on that point. If we take a hypothetical person who can walk to a popular crag with access concerns, then no, I don't think they should climb. Others think differently. As we've discussed in another thread, I also think there is a community/solidarity aspect to this, which you disagree with. To a certain extent that is informing my opinion that for the greater good we should all suck it up for now so we can all enjoy it again down the line. I am pretty confident that I would think this even if I lived within walking distance of a crag, popular or not.


The bit in bold doesn't make any sense, as we've gone around the houses on this thread. If (like me, sorry), you have a quiet lowball crag close to home and no-one sees you climbing there and there are no access issues - indeed the land is open access land, then you are in no way having any impact on us 'all enjoying [climbing] again down the line'. That's a bit of a fallacy based upon consequences that potentially could result, if you climbed in the wrong places.
The feeling solidarity part holds some value but only some. As others have pointed out on here and on the mirror image thread on the other channel, there's little sense in everyone showing solidarity by being needlessly unhappy. I'd rather show solidarity by pushing against naysayers, sensibly and sensitively but pushing nonetheless, to enjoy myself in the countryside doing something I love and which brings me joy, which is harmless to anyone else provided I do it sensibly.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 05:22:30 pm
Yeah, needless self-flagellation as an act of solidarity is a poor argument IMO.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 20, 2020, 05:27:41 pm
Fair point, you're a lucky minority! The solidarity/community point is entirely down to personal outlook. Clearly it has no scientific value, but I think knowing everyone else is in the same boat has its own value. It's just intangible, which I know some of you scientists/of a scientific bent might struggle with... :worms: ;D

As you say we've been round the houses on this one. I think the previous discussion was more interesting about climbing in (hopefully ) a few weeks...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 05:31:29 pm
I think the previous discussion was more interesting about climbing in (hopefully ) a few weeks...

Too right. Less depressing anyway!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 20, 2020, 05:40:04 pm
I don’t want to discuss the old topic anymore. In my mind we are all pretty much in agreement and 99% of climbers are now not climbing.

We need to turn the whole subject in to one of how we can get back outside as soon as possible and get our official body to support and push those ideas forward.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 20, 2020, 05:57:34 pm
You're right. I was totally unfair in how I presented your argument, if indeed such an illogical premise can be called as such. I did it to try and highlight its bollocksness  :)

If you are a vulnerable person, you have been told(advised?) to stay in your house for the next 9 weeks anyway and shouldn't be walking your dog.

The specific person I'm thinking of is my gran who is old but not shielded (I think) and who has, in the last week, had a home visit from my mum and been round to my parents for beans and egg on toast. The mitigating circumstances are that her house has got damp and she's becoming ill from it and that she has a history of depression and is feeling very low. The interesting point is that my mum is adamant that transmission could not have occurred during these visits because she's always careful about keeping her distance, granny wore a mask when mum was over there, she sat outside to eat when she was at my parents' etc. Most people don't understand how insidious a virus can be and think that a 2m radius around them is the only place that transmission can take place.

How she explains the fact that she drove to my uncle's house to drop off some ladders, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tc on April 20, 2020, 06:10:20 pm


If you are a vulnerable person, you have been told(advised?) to stay in your house for the next 9 weeks anyway and shouldn't be walking your dog.

Fuck that shit.
Regards,
A Vulnerable Person
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: seankenny on April 20, 2020, 06:11:05 pm
Yeah, needless self-flagellation as an act of solidarity is a poor argument IMO.

The behaviour of stuff in physics - atoms, stars, fluids, whatever - doesn't depend on what the stuff thinks about what other stuff is doing or thinking. The behaviour of people depends very strongly on their assessment of others' beliefs and actions. That's the major difference between science and social science!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRoiTWkBHU

Spidermonkey's argument is a good one, and has been the consistent elephant in the room throughout this thread - we're not just acting as individuals, but trying to enact a massive social change in a really short space of time.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 20, 2020, 06:23:58 pm
Yeah, but if you push hard on measures that actually have an effect then people will bow to pressure on that in the same way, rather than bowing to pressure on arbitrary rules and then feeling ok about being more relaxed within those rules. Same as I was talking about earlier, though maybe that was on one of the other threads.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: bigironhorse on April 20, 2020, 07:12:02 pm
I don’t want to discuss the old topic anymore. In my mind we are all pretty much in agreement and 99% of climbers are now not climbing.

We need to turn the whole subject in to one of how we can get back outside as soon as possible and get our official body to support and push those ideas forward.

Climbing is allowed again in Austria now, so long as you are with people from your household and maintain sensible distance from other people. As I understand it, the government asked sports associations to draw up guidelines for a gradual return to normal practice.

https://www.bergsteigen.com/news/neuigkeiten/klettern-klettersteiggehen-und-auf-skitouren-waehrend-der-corona-krise/

I guess the UK is a few weeks or a month behind Austria, so hopefully not too long to wait now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 20, 2020, 08:44:09 pm
This is what I am talking about. The BMC need to be on the ball with this and get guidelines drawn up now. Get ahead of everything.
All the negativity on this and other forums needs to change. We have accepted where we are now let’s plan something to get us back out.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on April 20, 2020, 08:49:02 pm
I don’t want to discuss the old topic anymore. In my mind we are all pretty much in agreement and 99% of climbers are now not climbing.

We need to turn the whole subject in to one of how we can get back outside as soon as possible and get our official body to support and push those ideas forward.

Climbing is allowed again in Austria now, so long as you are with people from your household and maintain sensible distance from other people. As I understand it, the government asked sports associations to draw up guidelines for a gradual return to normal practice.

https://www.bergsteigen.com/news/neuigkeiten/klettern-klettersteiggehen-und-auf-skitouren-waehrend-der-corona-krise/

I guess the UK is a few weeks or a month behind Austria, so hopefully not too long to wait now.

From the look of the ft data the UK is about a week behind Austria, but I suppose it all depends how that week goes and how willing the government is to relax things. 

For the first time in a while I am positive about things,  admissions are dropping and deaths are beginning to decline.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 20, 2020, 09:03:55 pm
From the look of the ft data the UK is about a week behind Austria, but I suppose it all depends how that week goes and how willing the government is to relax things. 

For the first time in a while I am positive about things,  admissions are dropping and deaths are beginning to decline.

:o

Yesterday we had more deaths in one day that Austria has had in total...

Today we recorded 100 times more new CV cases than Austria (4600 to 46)...

Our rates have dropped for two days on the bounce which is a really hopeful sign - but I'd have thought we're months more than weeks away - just looking at the numbers.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on April 20, 2020, 09:16:34 pm
From the look of the ft data the UK is about a week behind Austria, but I suppose it all depends how that week goes and how willing the government is to relax things. 

For the first time in a while I am positive about things,  admissions are dropping and deaths are beginning to decline.

:o

Yesterday we had more deaths in one day that Austria has had in total...

Today we recorded 100 times more new CV cases than Austria (4600 to 46)...

Our rates have dropped for two days on the bounce which is a really hopeful sign - but I'd have thought we're months more than weeks away - just looking at the numbers.
I mean in terms of the chronology of the outbreak, sorry,  acceleration,  plateau, decline.  Obviously we had a much bigger outbreak
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 20, 2020, 09:22:40 pm
👍
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 21, 2020, 12:50:03 pm
Nice edit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 21, 2020, 12:56:52 pm
Nice edit.

Me? I thought I'd play slightly more nicely.

Can we stop splitting threads? There are too many that are virtually the same topic already, it makes it a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fatneck on April 21, 2020, 01:42:33 pm
Not sure of this BMC update  (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/can-i-drive-to-go-walking-or-climbing?utm_source=BMC+Email+Subscribers&utm_campaign=7bfaaa29a8-lockdown_lowdown3&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_06481fa93e-7bfaaa29a8-1964893&goal=0_06481fa93e-7bfaaa29a8-1964893)has already been linked? Seems fairly clear that climbing is still a no no...

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 21, 2020, 01:45:41 pm
😂 yeah great split guys.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on April 21, 2020, 06:53:06 pm
FFS it’s a judgement call every time I do a split. They are a PITA to do. This is the first time I can recall anyone complaining. I can merge back together if you want
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on April 22, 2020, 09:35:24 am
I haven’t seen this linked yet so sorry if it has:

https://eveningsends.com/pretending-not-to-climb/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 22, 2020, 09:49:43 am
I haven’t seen this linked yet so sorry if it has:

https://eveningsends.com/pretending-not-to-climb/

"The Scolds". Brilliant.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 22, 2020, 04:13:19 pm
Interesting update to the regs:

https://coronavirus.blackstonechambers.com/new-lockdown-restrictions-clarification-or-confusion/

"(1)  During the emergency period, no person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse…”

I think this is aimed at the spend-the-day-hanging-in-the-park crew, and if you are 'exercising' you're fine. But we'll see.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on April 22, 2020, 04:31:10 pm
I’m not sure where they’re getting the data for motor vehicle usage from in these daily press briefings but it increasingly seems like bollocks to me. I’d put a conservative estimate on a 10 fold increase this week compared with the start of lockdown.

[N=1]
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 22, 2020, 04:52:25 pm
Interesting update to the regs:

https://coronavirus.blackstonechambers.com/new-lockdown-restrictions-clarification-or-confusion/

"(1)  During the emergency period, no person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse…”

I think this is aimed at the spend-the-day-hanging-in-the-park crew, and if you are 'exercising' you're fine. But we'll see.

I don't think that's what it does. We've all been fools and misread the previous regulations. It used to be the case that you could do whatever the hell you wanted, provided that you had originally left home for a listed reasonable excuse. JB, all this time there was nothing stopping you (except The Scolds) from going to Stanage, provided that you went to the shops first. The legislation only required you to have a reasonable excuse to leave home. Once you'd left, you had carte blanche to swan around as you saw fit. There was nothing to compel you to return home, so the hang-about-in-the-park-all-day crew were never in breach of the law, provided they didn't gather and did some exercise when they initially arrived at the park, or indeed on the way. This new wording fixes that, though with what further ramifications I'm not sure. It doesn't look like they've added in any guidance as to how long you may exercise, so you still just have to be able to argue that it's reasonable.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: crimpinainteasy on April 23, 2020, 05:04:42 pm
From the look of the ft data the UK is about a week behind Austria, but I suppose it all depends how that week goes and how willing the government is to relax things. 

For the first time in a while I am positive about things,  admissions are dropping and deaths are beginning to decline.

:o

Yesterday we had more deaths in one day that Austria has had in total...

Today we recorded 100 times more new CV cases than Austria (4600 to 46)...

Our rates have dropped for two days on the bounce which is a really hopeful sign - but I'd have thought we're months more than weeks away - just looking at the numbers.
I mean in terms of the chronology of the outbreak, sorry,  acceleration,  plateau, decline.  Obviously we had a much bigger outbreak

I'd say we're about 1.5- 2 months behind Austria in terms of progress, but you also have to remember the UK has 7.5  times the population of Austria so of course the number of cases is going to be several orders of magnitude greater.

I'd say Germany is a better comparison when trying to understand to compare how we could be hadling the virus better.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: neilpearsons on April 25, 2020, 06:09:16 pm
To the folks bouldering at Raven Tor this afternoon - I'm trying to understand your behaviour as something other than complete selfishness. Please disbuse me of this notion, because I've got lots of time on my hands at the moment and a lifelong project at the Tor. Many many people would have been there today but chose to do the right thing instead. What excuse have you got?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Adam Lincoln on April 25, 2020, 06:22:33 pm
To the folks bouldering at Raven Tor this afternoon - I'm trying to understand your behaviour as something other than complete selfishness. Please disbuse me of this notion, because I've got lots of time on my hands at the moment and a lifelong project at the Tor. Many many people would have been there today but chose to do the right thing instead. What excuse have you got?

Hardly likely to be anyone on here?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: onlineclimber on April 25, 2020, 06:52:07 pm
Just out of interest did you say anything to these people at the Tor?

Whilst it certainly doesn't seem to be the most discreet venue, given the amount of people driving further than I'd consider local for biking/walking and large numbers of cars/motorcyclist driving/riding at very high speeds about (unlikely to be on essential travel). I find it hardly surprising that someone thought it would be fine to go bouldering. I think lockdown fatigue is truly setting in.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 25, 2020, 06:53:07 pm
To the folks bouldering at Raven Tor....

Hardly likely to be anyone on here?
:agree:
Besides which, what sort of lunatic boulders at the Tor on a sunny day in the afternoon!!? Barbarians.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 25, 2020, 06:56:42 pm
To the folks bouldering at Raven Tor this afternoon - I'm trying to understand your behaviour as something other than complete selfishness. Please disbuse me of this notion, because I've got lots of time on my hands at the moment and a lifelong project at the Tor. Many many people would have been there today but chose to do the right thing instead. What excuse have you got?
I hope you live in Litton/Tideswell, or that question is likely to backfire quite hard.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 25, 2020, 07:32:08 pm
Last time we discussed this it sounded like there were some van-lifers living there. The ones at Stanage have been moved to the campsite to try to discourage others, but there are two or three more drifting around the eastern edges.

As I've said before, I cannot believe the rush to be judging pricks when not in full possession of the facts. Even if they're not living there, that session might be their last resort before throwing themselves under a train. People are struggling. Wind your fucking necks in.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 25, 2020, 08:47:55 pm
So they just can’t go for a walk or a run, they have to go bouldering. The poor sods it’s not like they are living on the 20th floor of a tower block and can’t even go and sit in their local park.
They made a choice to BUY and live in a van and the cost of van would get you a deposit for a mortgage in most northern areas.
So sometimes you have to deal with the choices you make.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 25, 2020, 08:57:50 pm
As someone who loves climbing at the tor I can empathise with the need to vent. Does anyone actually think it is OK to climb at the tor at the moment? Regarding mental health Adam yes lots of people are struggling and probably more the ones not out climbing rather than the people out at the tor today. What would help is not telling people to wind their fucking necks in.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 25, 2020, 09:02:08 pm
What if we tell the people who are telling the people to wind their necks in to wind their necks in to wind their necks in?


there are two or three more drifting around the eastern edges.

How do you know?!
Witch! Witch! Witch!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fatboyslimfast2 on April 25, 2020, 09:55:25 pm
Was it yellow trousered overgrading youtube star maybe?

The people that are 'living' in there vans...its amazing how they disappear somewhere for 5 days then come back almost like they go somewhere to refresh and wash clothes, shower and pick up mail.....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 25, 2020, 10:22:51 pm

Struggling with ones mental health is not carte blanche to stick two fingers up at the rest of the climbing community. I suspect people have drawn their red lines on this already but I maintain that you don't need to presume that someone is at the point of a gun before criticising their actions. Loads of people are struggling with not getting out, me included.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 25, 2020, 10:58:59 pm

Struggling with ones mental health is not carte blanche to stick two fingers up at the rest of the climbing community. I suspect people have drawn their red lines on this already but I maintain that you don't need to presume that someone is at the point of a gun before criticising their actions. Loads of people are struggling with not getting out, me included.

I'd agree, and might venture that if you were really struggling with your mental health, I find it somewhat unlikely that you'd be well psyched to go and pull down hard at the tor. I know it would depend on how and the individual, but I find it very hard to think that these people are anything other than totally selfish, socially irresponsible toerags who think that their passing gratification is somehow worth more than the twenty thousand people who've already died.
Maybe they have a good excuse though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 25, 2020, 11:11:37 pm
 :clap2:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 26, 2020, 08:50:00 am
So, avoiding this thread, in general (and the other one absolutely), but, I thought it worth pointing out that, the behaviour of “others” is beyond our control. Unfortunately, public and probably the authorities perception will be influenced by the extreme examples.
I don’t think it will necessarily need to be “climbing” related ( in our eyes), I expect being an “extreme sport” will be enough to tarnish a range of activities.

Anyway, those uncontrollable idiots have begun undermining their governing body’s best efforts:

 https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/teams-devon-cornwall-help-locate-4079403 (https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/teams-devon-cornwall-help-locate-4079403)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ged on April 26, 2020, 08:59:50 am
Last time we discussed this it sounded like there were some van-lifers living there. The ones at Stanage have been moved to the campsite to try to discourage others, but there are two or three more drifting around the eastern edges.

As I've said before, I cannot believe the rush to be judging pricks when not in full possession of the facts. Even if they're not living there, that session might be their last resort before throwing themselves under a train. People are struggling. Wind your fucking necks in.

Oh come on. If somebody is genuinely struggling with their mental health, scrappy limestone bouldering involving huge amounts of motivation is hardly the obvious choice. To suggest that somebody on the verge of suicide would have the wherewithal to go bouldering is at best daft, and at worst really quite insensitive.

What's even worse than people sticking their necks out and criticising these folk, is people using mental health as a cheap excuse to fuck things up for everyone.

Somebody summed things up nicely on the other channel with a post along the lines of "it's OK for me to drop litter because nobody else is".
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 26, 2020, 09:15:14 am
As an aside to the arguments around the rightness or wrongness, people seem to be projecting their own feelings about Raven Tor and limestone bouldering onto the situation. Just because one’s own preferred form of climbing head clearing is a solo circuit at Burbage, or some easy sea cliff climbing, does not mean that someone else won’t feel a lot better after trying really hard on their problem of choice.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 26, 2020, 09:30:07 am
Was it yellow trousered overgrading youtube star maybe?

The people that are 'living' in there vans...its amazing how they disappear somewhere for 5 days then come back almost like they go somewhere to refresh and wash clothes, shower and pick up mail.....

That’s despicable. When I lived in a van it had a shower, which was used properly. To store beer.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 26, 2020, 09:38:10 am
Tim - My comment was about conditions. Which are terrible there in the afternoon if it's warm and sunny. You'd have to be mad etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 26, 2020, 09:47:06 am

Somebody summed things up nicely on the other channel with a post along the lines of "it's OK for me to drop litter because nobody else is".
Appealing simplicity  aside, I don't think that's a very well fitting simile. Littering is intrinsically anti-social and leaves a permanent or semi permanent artifact in place. Maybe if the lone litterer is dropping a banana skin it works better, but then I suspect that wouldn't very well fit the posters favoured narrative.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 26, 2020, 09:52:26 am
I think the attitude expressed in the litter metaphor is fitting if not the impact of dropping litter vs climbing etc...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ged on April 26, 2020, 10:00:20 am

Somebody summed things up nicely on the other channel with a post along the lines of "it's OK for me to drop litter because nobody else is".
Appealing simplicity  aside, I don't think that's a very well fitting simile. Littering is intrinsically anti-social and leaves a permanent or semi permanent artifact in place. Maybe if the lone litterer is dropping a banana skin it works better, but then I suspect that wouldn't very well fit the posters favoured narrative.

I'd say breaking lockdown is intrinsically antisocial. And potentially leaves a long lasting legacy in terms of affecting our ability to get out of this mess.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: danm on April 26, 2020, 11:12:10 am
My favourite synopsis of this situation and the arguments being made here and elsewhere comes from GvG:

"Moral duty vs addiction"

When I started climbing over 30 years ago (gulp!) part of the attraction was that it was rebellious and counter-cultural, it felt like a way of "sticking it to the man". Now, it seems like a possible outcome will be to stick it to someone's Gran.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 26, 2020, 11:19:14 am
Devon and Cornwall’s Chief Constable has given a statement to the Beeb about this, where he described the “Guidance” that many are so hot on, as “some of the worst he’s ever seen” and (specifically in reference to traveling to surf, but I assume it will be applied in general):

"If people are, essentially taking the mick, then we may find it best to send them to the magistrates' court and let them work it out.“

 https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/devon-cornwalls-top-cop-slates-4079440 (https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/devon-cornwalls-top-cop-slates-4079440)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 26, 2020, 11:25:54 am
On the dropping litter metaphor. There's a spectrum from, at one end, discretely arc'ing your apple core into the long grass at the crag, to ongoing large-scale fly-tipping of the waste from your kitchen extension down a scenic country lane.
Where do the Tor people sit on that spectrum? My estimate would be somewhere around absent-minded leaving a banana skin on a rock while out for a walk, to hoiking a coke can and mars bar wrapper into a pleasant little community pond. They should be punished accordingly.
I think we should be climbing (if at all) at the apple-core end of the antisocial spectrum.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 26, 2020, 12:57:43 pm
I think I get what your saying Pete and I agree there is a big difference between the kind of climbing bonjoy is talking about and going to the tor. Highlighting and shaming people going to discreet places which they keep quiet about I wouldn't advocate and although personally it still doesn't feel right climbing to me I wouldn't criticise people doing this.  In my opinion the tor is different because the local community and other interested parties like the river warden will see that people are climbing and it could damage relationships for years. In my opinion anyone climbing at places like the tor or griffs are incredibly selfish and should be called out so that it hopefully stops before any/more damage is done. Wales is obviously different because your new welsh guidelines make it pretty clear you shouldnt be doing any type of climbing  :sorry:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 26, 2020, 02:14:49 pm
Don't disagree with any of that, just trying to interject a bit of light-hearted litter dropping-based humour into the serious business of being angry about things.

As for the Tor-goers my uninformed opinion is if they're desperate to climb then it would be more wise to find somewhere a lot less public, less frequented by other climbers and less sensitive access-wise than the Tor. Or just go for a run or a cycle (and avoid heavy breathing within 5 metres of others).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 26, 2020, 03:43:52 pm
As I've said before, I cannot believe the rush to be judging pricks when not in full possession of the facts. Even if they're not living there, that session might be their last resort before throwing themselves under a train. People are struggling. Wind your fucking necks in.

 :wave: judging prick here Johnny.

Rather that than a climbing at popular indiscreet location during corona climbing lockdown prick.

For now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 26, 2020, 04:30:18 pm
While out on a bike ride this afternoon. I came across three people getting their bikes out of a bike shop van( shop about 18 miles away) to go on a ride. When I strongly stated they shouldn’t be doing this, I was informed that the up dated guidance says it’s ok as long as the exercise is longer than the drive.
I was appalled by this attitude as the roads have never been better for cycling so why do need to drive out of city ( Hull) to ride.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 26, 2020, 04:53:23 pm
To be fair, one can never get out of Hull which enough.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 26, 2020, 05:09:36 pm
I hope you took the obvious next step - snuck around to where they'd later be passing and strung a tensioned wire across their route:
https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/wothersome-trail-sabotage-396473 (https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/wothersome-trail-sabotage-396473)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-52380893?at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=facebook_page&at_custom1=link&at_custom4=C077E372-848D-11EA-98F7-1D0A933C408C&at_custom3=Regional+BBC+Yorkshire+&at_campaign=64

(I'm joking of course..)
(Going into the woods and digging deep pits on popular flowing downhill sections of trail and fixing excrement covered punji spikes in the bottom, then covering the whole affair with small branches and leaves, instils more terror among the wider biking community than just a wire. Or chain-sawing large trees and rigging them up into the air with pulleys so they hang ready to swing and smash mtn bikers into next week. It's the only way to be sure. See Return of the Jedi, ewok's rebellion.)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 26, 2020, 05:21:55 pm
They were riding on the road. I did think I should have let the van tyres down but this would probably have led to another unnecessary journey.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 26, 2020, 10:37:24 pm
Don't disagree with any of that, just trying to interject a bit of light-hearted litter dropping-based humour into the serious business of being angry about things.

As for the Tor-goers my uninformed opinion is if they're desperate to climb then it would be more wise to find somewhere a lot less public, less frequented by other climbers and less sensitive access-wise than the Tor. Or just go for a run or a cycle (and avoid heavy breathing within 5 metres of others).

Going climbing at the tor at the moment just implies they don't give a shit about anyone else, how visible they are or how many people they might encounter or potentially harm.

Much like slinging your half eaten KFC bargain bucket out of the car window in the middle of the Lake District perhaps.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fatboyslimfast2 on April 27, 2020, 06:34:25 am
This is the thing that gets me, we are not an isolated sports community. Yesterday and previous days before non climbing locals of the peak district have commented to me that they have seen people climbing or cars parked at climbing venues. Non climber locals  are asking me why are people doing this, I shrug feel embarrassed and have to say something about a minority etc etc 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 27, 2020, 09:20:05 am
This is the thing that gets me, we are not an isolated sports community. Yesterday and previous days before non climbing locals of the peak district have commented to me that they have seen people climbing or cars parked at climbing venues. Non climber locals  are asking me why are people doing this, I shrug feel embarrassed and have to say something about a minority etc etc

I was driving around at work last week and saw a van pulling into the parking at Horseshoe Quarry. I definitely wondered why.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 27, 2020, 09:38:42 am
They were riding on the road. I did think I should have let the van tyres down but this would probably have led to another unnecessary journey.

I would have thought a dirty protest would be adequate. With your past employment experience you should be used to dealing with that shit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on April 27, 2020, 09:41:58 am
I agree that climbing at the tor is unwise in terms of being seen by locals and non climbers and the potential impact that has and also in terms of the backlash from the climbing community.

However I really can’t see much issue with going to a isolated venue somewhere if you can get there without breaking the regulations.

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread my gripes are not with a few people going climbing causing minimal transmission risks. My issues are with large industries such as the construction industry carrying on as usual and now firms like Taylor Wimpey stating that they are going to have precautions in place that will enable them to get fully back to work! This is complete BS and should be stopped. I have seen plenty of contractors out recently with absolutely no precautions going on and suspect very much that there will be no actual precautions taking place on any building sites (well precautions that are effective).

Personally I haven’t gone out climbing but am becoming more and more tempted and am not keen on harshly judging others. A bit of of bouldering or some isolated sport climbing holds virtually nil risks and the longer this goes on with me seeing plenty of businesses carrying on virtually as normal the less I think the restrictions regarding exercise are reasonable.

As I have said on the other BMC thread rather than think of why not to go climbing we should start thinking about how we could go climbing safely or without breaking regulations.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 27, 2020, 09:47:07 am
I can assure you the construction industry is not carrying on as normal   A bit like climbing, there are some who are but the vast majority are not.
We have not been forced to work by a single contractor. The one or two sites we are on are better organised re distancing than your average Aldi.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 27, 2020, 10:01:11 am
As I have mentioned earlier in the thread my gripes are not with a few people going climbing causing minimal transmission risks.

I know we've gone round the houses on this. But my gripe is that the only reason these are isolated venues is because no one else is climbing there. The tor would be quite busy or stanage or whatever but now that 95%(?) of us are doing as recommended these are isolated venues. Fauna will be nibbling at the flora growing in otherwise well trodden earth.

And then some of the 5% are posting their send just to rub our noses in it. Even with my injury I would love to go and do some laps ten minutes from here.

And yes totally get that the mental gymnastics required to compare economic activity with recreation. It doesn't objectively make a whole lotta sense. At some level though we've got to keep the lights on but there is a whole load of not essential essential activity carrying on.

Fuck it shall we just go climbing?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 27, 2020, 10:27:22 am
I can assure you the construction industry is not carrying on as normal   A bit like climbing, there are some who are but the vast majority are not.
We have not been forced to work by a single contractor. The one or two sites we are on are better organised re distancing than your average Aldi.

My sister works for a London-centric property management firm. Their sites have been down-manned to 25%. Interestingly, productivity is up and they expect to meet deadlines. The changes from this may not be the ones the left were hoping for.

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread my gripes are not with a few people going climbing causing minimal transmission risks.

I know we've gone round the houses on this. But my gripe is that the only reason these are isolated venues is because no one else is climbing there. The tor would be quite busy or stanage or whatever but now that 95%(?) of us are doing as recommended these are isolated venues. Fauna will be nibbling at the flora growing in otherwise well trodden earth.

Fuck it shall we just go climbing?

Redmires was about as busy as I've seen it on Saturday (although I admit I've never been there on a bank holiday). Approx 100 cars (including mine) most families, many walking to Stanage. But no crowds and far more effective social distancing being practiced than in the city parks. But no climbing.

Couple that with the Devin and Cornwall Police Chief saying 'surfing is exercise and that is fine', and the NHS starting a campaign to encourage non-Covid people to present, you have to wonder if not climbing is now less about transmission and more about virtue signalling.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 27, 2020, 10:32:12 am
Murph there is a differce between a quiet venue and an isolated venue. The tor is not an isolated venue just because the vast majority respect that it is inappropriate to climb there.  As fatboy says the locals can see what climbers are up too and some will be pissed off. Pissing off locals is not a good idea. I don't know if it was malicious but its not that long ago that the body machine tree was cut down. Please dont climb at the tor or other sensitive places.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 27, 2020, 10:57:12 am
For the avoidance of doubt I had nothing to do with the Body Machine tree and I will not be going climbing again until someone texts me to say it's ok to go out at 6am in secret. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 27, 2020, 11:07:51 am
I normally try and go to off the beaten track places - but to be honest really struggle to think of anywhere where I wouldn’t stand a chance of being spotted going in , out or climbing by a member of the public or the landowner.

Maybe I’m not thinking hard enough... anyhoo I’m committed to not going out for the foreseeable future anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ged on April 27, 2020, 11:15:02 am
I agree that climbing at the tor is unwise in terms of being seen by locals and non climbers and the potential impact that has and also in terms of the backlash from the climbing community.

However I really can’t see much issue with going to a isolated venue somewhere if you can get there without breaking the regulations.

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread my gripes are not with a few people going climbing causing minimal transmission risks. My issues are with large industries such as the construction industry carrying on as usual and now firms like Taylor Wimpey stating that they are going to have precautions in place that will enable them to get fully back to work! This is complete BS and should be stopped. I have seen plenty of contractors out recently with absolutely no precautions going on and suspect very much that there will be no actual precautions taking place on any building sites (well precautions that are effective).

Personally I haven’t gone out climbing but am becoming more and more tempted and am not keen on harshly judging others. A bit of of bouldering or some isolated sport climbing holds virtually nil risks and the longer this goes on with me seeing plenty of businesses carrying on virtually as normal the less I think the restrictions regarding exercise are reasonable.

As I have said on the other BMC thread rather than think of why not to go climbing we should start thinking about how we could go climbing safely or without breaking regulations.

I'm sure this has been said elsewhere, but the whole point surely is that the only reason it is an isolated venue, is because the rest of us are not going there.  If we all said sod it, the crags would be rammed, and lockdown would get a lot stricter very quickly. 

I agree that a better approach long term from the BMC is to start looking at guidance so people can go climbing, but until that happens, everyone needs to play ball.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ashtond6 on April 27, 2020, 11:25:16 am
This thread really is going around in circles  :slap:

What happened to the BMC thread? Can't find it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 27, 2020, 12:03:23 pm
What happened to the BMC thread? Can't find it.
Hiding in the bmc discussions. 
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/board,57.0.html
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: steveri on April 27, 2020, 12:14:16 pm
I ran past a local venue for a peek this weekend and saw fresh chalk (and some serious gardening). Lowball spot in the trees. I'm not going climbing but it would be high on my list for when I do stop virtue signalling. I've sometimes come away using the mat for no more than stepping off with dry feet at the end of a traverse.

At the moment I think virtue signalling is still a good thing, any weakening is going to come alongside lots of other people weakening for their own special cases and we're already seeing more traffic and general milling around.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 27, 2020, 12:17:45 pm

I'm sure this has been said elsewhere, but the whole point surely is that the only reason it is an isolated venue, is because the rest of us are not going there.  If we all said sod it, the crags would be rammed, and lockdown would get a lot stricter very quickly. 

I agree that a better approach long term from the BMC is to start looking at guidance so people can go climbing, but until that happens, everyone needs to play ball.

I agree. That's really why climbing now is selfish as if everyone who wanted to did Stanage etc would be rammed, people would start traveling from miles away. The sort of climbing lots of people would be doing is not going to lend itself to distancing.
Guidance eg don't drive more than XYZ distance, boulder, minimal amount of risk perhaps might be good. I could walk to Stanage from my house but haven't.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wil on April 27, 2020, 12:31:28 pm
This thread really is going around in circles  :slap:

It's making me dizzy too.

I think the thing we're just about getting to, and which is confusing from a law/guidance/morality perspective is that we're used to laws which directly prevent harm to someone or something, whether it's people, finances, animals, the environment. There's usually a clearer link between the lawbreaker and the damage. I think we all struggle to get our heads around that, and I think our western idea of freedom is partly to blame.

The answer to the "Can we climb yet?" question seems, to me, to be a clear no in almost all cases. It doesn't follow that a few individuals are causing genuine harm (in a virus spreading sense) by going out. It's a collective sense of "But I'm not going out, I'm being good!" that's getting us and that doesn't compute with our normal understanding of rule following.

I think also, as a society (outside of the climbing world) we're struggling to understand the actual risk of doing things. Working with Covid-19 cases, or in a building with them, is going to be a higher risk than elsewhere. But for most activities or work, with other peoples social distancing, I don't think the risk as an individual is necessarily very high. I see posts on Facebook saying how brave teachers are for still working and "putting themselves at risk" and I wonder whether they really are. Sure, staying indoors is going to be better than not, but heading out to work at the moment may well be the same baseline risk of infection as normal, one we wouldn't even think about. I think for many of us we're struggling to get our heads round the difference between individual risk and societal risk and responsibility.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 27, 2020, 12:50:14 pm
Good point, it's the aggregated group risk rather than individual risk which is hard to see and to feel.

You might like my cousin's observation the other night - currently in LA- that the US is struggling ' because coronavirus is the most un-American thing EVER' . He elaborated that it 'interferes with your right to do whatever you want whenever you want it'.

I guess we are all struggling with that.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 27, 2020, 12:52:28 pm
coming up for 50 pages of going round in circles. Impressive even by UKC standards.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 27, 2020, 01:00:01 pm
coming up for 50 pages of going round in circles. Impressive even by UKC standards.

And no mentions of Dense yet!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 27, 2020, 01:09:19 pm
Quote
That's really why climbing now is selfish as if everyone who wanted to did Stanage etc would be rammed, people would start traveling from miles away.

I don't think so. The guidance on unnecessary travel is much less opaque than that on what exercise is permitted.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Dac on April 27, 2020, 01:19:18 pm
Something I have been thinking about is that, when we enter the stage where lockdown is being eased and some climbing is permitted, how will people interpret terms such as 'remote' and 'quiet' when it comes to choosing a climbing venue. After all what a climber based in the Scottish Highlands considers remote is rather different to what a climber based in Sheffield might.

Someone commented that in Sweden a large number of principally indoor climbers have been venturing outside as indoor walls remain closed. If 99% of your climbing is done indoors then somewhere like Stanage left hand end or Back Bowden is going to be considered to be like the back of beyond. Just because one climber considers a venue to be quiet and isolated doesn't mean another climber ( or landowner/farmer/ passer by ) would.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 27, 2020, 01:22:27 pm
Just create a list of crags to avoid for the time being.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Adam Lincoln on April 27, 2020, 01:23:57 pm
coming up for 50 pages of going round in circles. Impressive even by UKC standards.

And no mentions of Dense yet!

Dense is too busy going around in circles in his garage rafters.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 27, 2020, 01:26:35 pm
He's turned into a bat?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 27, 2020, 01:45:05 pm
He's turned into a bat?

I thought that was Jasper? 🧛‍♂️ 😃
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 27, 2020, 05:51:35 pm
Coronavirus: North Yorkshire day-trippers 'ignore' rules https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52442573

Whatever any of us here think about the guidance/policy/whatever, I think we can all be glad it isnt climbers getting a slating in this piece!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 27, 2020, 06:56:27 pm
Likewise these tugnuts.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2020-04-26/abusive-tourist-who-travelled-180-miles-to-climb-snowdon-gets-armed-police-treatment/

Unfortunately to Joe Public they are "climbing" Snowdon and are therefore "climbers".
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 27, 2020, 07:09:06 pm
This isn't posted to make light of tragic stats nor is it made in the spirit of trying to 'win' any argument. But it was pretty eye-opening to me to find out today from a report in Road cc that deaths of cyclists during the first month of lockdown are over 300% higher than the annual average. 20 deaths during April..  :o  :o
That's eye-watering. The report lists 15 deaths, then I scrolled down and read the comments  and people have pointed out a further 5 deaths with links to newspaper reports for each.. Crazy.
Deaths are also over 300% higher than the average for April (i.e. April is not on average a bad month) with previous Aprils having, at most, 9 deaths and, at least, 4 deaths.
I instinctively assumed it must be newbie older bikers having heart-attacks. But that isn't it, see below, virtually all collisions involving other vehicle. I also assumed the deaths would mostly be cyclists in London - nope, nationwide on all sorts of roads.
Report here:  https://road.cc/content/news/cyclist-deaths-during-lockdown-2x-average-time-year-272987
Follow up: https://road.cc/content/news/15-cyclists-killed-during-lockdown-what-we-know-so-far-273017

Applying a hierarchy of risk model from near-miss, up through minor accident, major accident and fatality you can begin to imagine how many minor, serious and v.serious injuries there would have been in addition to 20 fatalities. It makes the concerns of MR look a bit trivial in comparison. The relevance to the whole debate around risk of accident, impact on healthcare and risk of transmission to healthcare workers is obvious.

Can people really claim that climbing or hill-walking is, per head, anywhere near this level of impact on the health service and risk of transmission to healthcare workers? What are the per head stats for climbing?


Grim stats:

26 March(link is external) – A male cyclist aged in his 80s died at Addenbrooke’s Hospital in Cambridge the day after a collision involving a van on the city’s Newmarket Road at the roundabout with Barnwell Road.  No arrest has reportedly been made.

26 March (link is external)– A male cyclist was killed in Moira, near Lisburn, Northern Ireland, after a collision involving a SEAT Leon car. The driver was not reported to have been arrested. The victim's age was not disclosed.

1 April (link is external)– A male cyclist aged 50 died in hospital from injuries he sustained in a collision involving a van in Alford, Lincolnshire, on the morning of 23 March – later that day, the UK-wide lockdown would be announced. There are no reports of any arrest being made.

3 April(link is external) – xx xx, aged 57, died in hospital from injuries sustained earlier that day as a result of a collision involving a tractor near Balsall Common, Solihull. The driver was reported to be assisting police with their enquiries.

7 April (link is external)– Metropolitan Police intelligence analyst xx xx, aged 25, was killed in a collision involving two other vehicles in Worcester Park, south west London, as she rode to work. No arrests have been reported.

8 April(link is external) – A male cyclist aged in his 60s died as a result of a collision involving a van in the village of Compton near Guildford, Surrey. The driver of the van was treated for minor injuries. There are no reports of any arrest.

10 April (link is external)– xx xx, aged 36, was killed in a collision involving a car near Menai Bridge, Anglesey. There are no reports of an arrest having been made.

11 April (link is external)– Cyclist xx xx, aged 40, died in hospital in Cardiff from injuries he sustained the previous day in a collision involving a Peugeot 208 car in Ebbw Vale. Police arrested the driver of the vehicle at the scene on suspicion of causing serious injury by dangerous driving. He was subsequently released while investigations continue.

13 April (link is external)– A male cyclist aged in his 50s died in hospital in Surrey following a collision the previous day in Sunbury. The driver of the vehicle involved, a Mercedes CLK coupé, was arrested at the scene on suspicion of causing serious injury by dangerous driving and was subsequently released under investigation.

15 April(link is external) – xx xx, aged 67, was killed in Port Talbot, South Wales. There was no report of the driver of the vehicle involved in the incident, a Ford Fiesta, being arrested.

16 April(link is external) – A cyclist died at the scene of a collision involving a lorry at Market Deeping, Northamptonshire. No arrests have been reported.

17 April (link is external)– An 18-year-old male cyclist died on the A1086 between Blackhall and Horden, County Durham. Police said: “His death is not being treated as suspicious and a file is being prepared for the coroner.”

18 April (link is external)– xx xx, 44, died in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Birmingham, die to injuries sustained in a collision involving a Fiat Punto car in Tamworth, Staffordshire on 15 April. No arrests have been made.

20 April (link is external)– xx xx, aged 80 and a keen cyclist and triathlete, was killed in Hatfield, Hertfordshire. A 23-year-old woman from Hertford was arrested at the scene on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving. She has since been released under investigation.

22 April (link is external)– An unnamed male cyclist, aged 55, died at Dibbles Bridge, North Yorkshire. There was not report of another vehicle being involved and police have appealed for witnesses. The Yorkshire Post reports that two other cyclists have been killed at the same location in recent years, both after being thrown over the bridge parapet onto the riverbed below.



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 27, 2020, 09:53:06 pm
In short, no.

That's pretty horrendous reading and makes Old Cheese's point about mine and others' internal risk assessment potentially being (way) off fairly clearly.

 :sick:

There have been a few moments on the bike recently where I've considered whether a camera of sorts is a good investment.

 :devangel:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 27, 2020, 11:04:26 pm
Sobering statistics certainly. I wonder whether many of these collisions are to do with more cyclists, (unlikely, I doubt that there are more cyclists we all just notice them as there are so few cars) or increased carelessness by either drivers or cyclists, assuming the roads are empty. I've certainly seen quite a few cars going absurdly fast mainly within Sheffield, but some pretty dangerous behaviour from motorcycles, cyclists and pedestrians as well.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on April 27, 2020, 11:06:03 pm
Not climbers (I hope!) but looks like some utter fools out there

BBC News - Coronavirus: North Yorkshire day-trippers 'ignore' rules
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52442573
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: moose on April 28, 2020, 07:54:52 am
Sobering statistics certainly. I wonder whether many of these collisions are to do with more cyclists, (unlikely, I doubt that there are more cyclists we all just notice them as there are so few cars) or increased carelessness by either drivers or cyclists, assuming the roads are empty. I've certainly seen quite a few cars going absurdly fast mainly within Sheffield, but some pretty dangerous behaviour from motorcycles, cyclists and pedestrians as well.

N=1 but for weeks I've noticed an increasingly cavalier attitude from all parties re the risks of other road users.  Cyclists careering along in the middle of the road at high speeds have attracted most of my attention.  But there's probably a fair bit confirmation bias and envy in that observation - they're apparently in Strava paradise whilst I'm stuck with fingerboarding. 

I'm convinced there are also more pedestrians stepping out into the road without looking (and that includes me), and drivers treating the relatively clear roads as autobahns (not guilty - I charge by the hour for travel!).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 28, 2020, 07:56:56 am
There are a lot more cyclists out round where I live in East Yorkshire. The increase seems to be either new cyclists or returning ones.
How do I know this. Well watching them wobble all over the round, flat pedals or toe clips, pedalling  in a massive gear and from the clothing they are wearing. On some of the quiet minor roads some of these are riding all over the road as if there is not going to be any other traffic.
I nearly ran in to the back of two blokes when I was doing some intervals on a single track road. I shouted that I was coming up behind them, they just looked and continued riding two abreast. Fortunately there was enough of gap to get past.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fatneck on April 28, 2020, 08:32:01 am
The Angling Trust have put together a really good proposal (https://joinanglingtrust.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/FULL-REPORT-TO-GOVERNMENT-MINISTERS-FINAL-1.pdf) for Government about how fishing might start again. Would there be merit in the BMC doing something similar?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on April 28, 2020, 08:47:21 am
That looks like a good idea!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 28, 2020, 09:05:12 am
Yes it's great. They do dodge the issue of honeypot car parks which seems to be the major issue for hillwalking and climbing. My own impression is this can be made to look bad in photos but need not be an issue due to temporal distancing that happens naturally. E.g. ~100 cars at Redmires Saturday, no distancing issues at all.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nik at work on April 28, 2020, 09:18:46 am
I nearly ran in to the back of two blokes when I was doing some intervals on a single track road. I shouted that I was coming up behind them, they just looked and continued riding two abreast. Fortunately there was enough of gap to get past.
Care to clarify which was the recklessly riding party in this scenario...? 😁
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 28, 2020, 09:28:28 am
I agree and to me that seems a pretty compelling proposal. I hope the bmc can do the same and can put in the proposal a similar statement on how the climbing community has supported the stay at home guidance. Clearly a very good case can be made that we should be allowed to climb again but realistically there will be some rules and it is only if climbers can be trusted to follow the rules that a similar bmc petition is likely to be successful anytime soon. If people carry on ignoring the bmc advice it makes it a lot harder for the bmc to argue that climbers will follow any new rules agreed to allow climbing again. By rules I mean the kind of thing football is currently doing so travelling independently and socially distancing at crags - I agree risk should be kept out of it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 28, 2020, 09:31:13 am
Yes it's great. They do dodge the issue of honeypot car parks which seems to be the major issue for hillwalking and climbing. My own impression is this can be made to look bad in photos but need not be an issue due to temporal distancing that happens naturally. E.g. ~100 cars at Redmires Saturday, no distancing issues at all.

What, like those huge ‘honeypot’ car parks just outside of supermarkets?

I just don’t see a problem with the majority of car parks in National Parks wrt social distancing. Sure, stick some hand sanitizer on gates.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 28, 2020, 09:45:20 am
I nearly ran in to the back of two blokes when I was doing some intervals on a single track road. I shouted that I was coming up behind them, they just looked and continued riding two abreast. Fortunately there was enough of gap to get past.
Care to clarify which was the recklessly riding party in this scenario...? 😁
I didn’t say they were reckless, more that they were riding if the roads were closed. Also my brakes are pretty good ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on April 28, 2020, 09:58:42 am
Can't wait to see the comments when climbers start to venture out again. "Went to the Tor today and there were some right punters there. Using ATCs instead of grigris, dull coloured cargo pants, and not a theraband amongst them".
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on April 28, 2020, 10:19:19 am
Yeah, I pity all those people who haven’t enquired on a website first regarding which trousers they should be wearing 😂
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 28, 2020, 10:20:10 am
Yes it's great. They do dodge the issue of honeypot car parks which seems to be the major issue for hillwalking and climbing. My own impression is this can be made to look bad in photos but need not be an issue due to temporal distancing that happens naturally. E.g. ~100 cars at Redmires Saturday, no distancing issues at all.

What, like those huge ‘honeypot’ car parks just outside of supermarkets?

I just don’t see a problem with the majority of car parks in National Parks wrt social distancing. Sure, stick some hand sanitizer on gates.

Agreed, that's why I wrote 'can be made to look bad in photos'. The public perception is the problem, not the facts. I can only assume the initial crowds in Wales were much worse than here as the BMC bods based there are all very concerned about a repeat if there is a sudden end to lockdown.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 28, 2020, 10:36:14 am
What, like those huge ‘honeypot’ car parks just outside of supermarkets?

Agreed, that's why I wrote 'can be made to look bad in photos'. The public perception is the problem, not the facts.

People go to supermarkets to buy food. Using an imperfect but fairly necessary situation to make your point(s) isn't ideal.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 28, 2020, 10:39:16 am
Just on that Adam. This point irks me, along with the MR, risk of injury and transmission justifications that have been used for saying don't climb. (Access being the most valid justification that I can see).
The BMC bods may be concerned. But their job is to represent BMC members, not the general public flip-flopping up Snowdon. The majority of the masses of people who mobbed Pen y Pass and Llanberis would not have been BMC members. They were the people who typically mob Snowdon on a sunny spring or summer weekend.
Let's have the BMC focusing on representing the interests of  its members who want to go hill-walking and climbing, and not use non-members driving to eat ice-cream on top of Snowdon as justification for policy.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on April 28, 2020, 10:59:14 am
What, like those huge ‘honeypot’ car parks just outside of supermarkets?

Agreed, that's why I wrote 'can be made to look bad in photos'. The public perception is the problem, not the facts.

People go to supermarkets to buy food. Using an imperfect but fairly necessary situation to make your point(s) isn't ideal.

Not sure I understand? Surely the risk of transmission at the supermarket is going in and being near people/touching surfaces. Not the car park outside. So it’s accepted that there is no serious risk from parking otherwise they’d have a ‘one in, one out’ system at car parks with you only being able to park in every other bay.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 28, 2020, 11:30:58 am
Just on that Adam. This point irks me, along with the MR, risk of injury and transmission justifications that have been used for saying don't climb. (Access being the most valid justification that I can see).
The BMC bods may be concerned. But their job is to represent BMC members, not the general public flip-flopping up Snowdon. The majority of the masses of people who mobbed Pen y Pass and Llanberis would not have been BMC members. They were the people who typically mob Snowdon on a sunny spring or summer weekend.
Let's have the BMC focusing on representing the interests of  its members who want to go hill-walking and climbing, and not use non-members driving to eat ice-cream on top of Snowdon as justification for policy.

Sure. But when to Police phone the BMC to say, 'more hillwalkers on Snowdon today, please get the message out Snowdon is closed' what would you suggest they say? They're not our hillwalkers?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 28, 2020, 11:36:37 am
Not sure I understand? Surely the risk of transmission at the supermarket is going in and being near people/touching surfaces. Not the car park outside. So it’s accepted that there is no serious risk from parking otherwise they’d have a ‘one in, one out’ system at car parks with you only being able to park in every other bay.

I think it doesn't make your point very well to take something that's inherently linked to something that's a necessity (the honeypot statement). Not every store is managing it as per the supermarkets. Johnny's point re: it looking bad but in reality (timings etc.) making it less so is far stronger IMO.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 28, 2020, 11:37:06 am
Yeah, I pity all those people who haven’t enquired on a website first regarding which trousers they should be wearing 😂
Brown trousers for trad I presume.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on April 28, 2020, 11:43:23 am
The Angling Trust have put together a really good proposal (https://joinanglingtrust.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/FULL-REPORT-TO-GOVERNMENT-MINISTERS-FINAL-1.pdf) for Government about how fishing might start again. Would there be merit in the BMC doing something similar?

This is great and exactly what i have been advocating the BMC do. Its easy to self govern the participants and areas that cannot be isolated from the general public (canal towpaths etc) could remain closed.

Ditto climbing, crags next to public paths stay out of bounds (cornice, Rubicon, etc (tor maybe)) but anywhere away from normal public areas are open.

Angling has a lot of participants and also is generally commercially operated, so more reason to get fisheries open and have 1000s of business owners backing it. Climbing doesnt have this added benefit unfortunately.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 28, 2020, 11:46:16 am
Ditto climbing, crags next to public paths stay out of bounds (cornice, Rubicon, etc (tor maybe)) but anywhere away from normal public areas are open.

I think I said it a few pages ago; you'd start with crags (Open Access) with irrefutable access, for 'local' ( :worms:) use wouldn't you?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 28, 2020, 11:47:34 am
Angling has a lot of participants and also is generally commercially operated, so more reason to get fisheries open and have 1000s of business owners backing it. Climbing doesnt have this added benefit unfortunately.

This also means its comercially regulated (permits etc..) which also affords a level of control that doesnt happen (at all) with climbing.. But the doc is a really good blueprint for the BMC to copy 'be inspired' from... Good find Si.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 28, 2020, 12:16:37 pm
Just on that Adam. This point irks me, along with the MR, risk of injury and transmission justifications that have been used for saying don't climb. (Access being the most valid justification that I can see).
The BMC bods may be concerned. But their job is to represent BMC members, not the general public flip-flopping up Snowdon. The majority of the masses of people who mobbed Pen y Pass and Llanberis would not have been BMC members. They were the people who typically mob Snowdon on a sunny spring or summer weekend.
Let's have the BMC focusing on representing the interests of  its members who want to go hill-walking and climbing, and not use non-members driving to eat ice-cream on top of Snowdon as justification for policy.

Sure. But when to Police phone the BMC to say, 'more hillwalkers on Snowdon today, please get the message out Snowdon is closed' what would you suggest they say? They're not our hillwalkers?

Well to point out the obvious and what I'm sure you can work out if you think about it.

1. There's the BMC getting out the message that people should avoid Snowdon because the National Park has closed it to the public because the Welsh Government has asked the National Park to close the honeypot areas of Snowdon and Cadair Idris.
2. Then there's the BMC taking a public stance that ALL hill-walking and ALL rock-climbing should cease EVERYWHERE.

Baby and bath-water seems an apt metaphor.

Consequences are obvious. There's evidence that the BMC's communications will be used by authorities to inform their decision-making on what's reasonable. I mentioned to Barrows in a pm about a serving police officer stating on ukc that he will use the BMC communications as guidance to inform his decision-making on what's reasonable in the case of walker x or climber y being stopped.
That's the problem when you start taking responsibly for everybody, and brushing all BMC members with the same brush as all idiots who want to walk up Snowdon and who aren't BMC members.

Now why would you *want* to take responsibility for everybody who sets foot in the hills :-\
Oh yeah, because you're an organisation, and the general trend for organisations is to suck in all around them to justify their significance and grow funding. Who benefits? Not the members.

That's the bottom line for most of my disdain for the BMC's stance (I'd also add MR to that). The attitude appears much more about them protecting their organisation's image (and themselves) - and using flimsy arguments not supported by evidence - then about protecting climbers and hillwalker's legitimate interests.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 28, 2020, 12:38:11 pm

Consequences are obvious. There's evidence that the BMC's communications will be used by authorities to inform their decision-making on what's reasonable. I mentioned to Barrows in a pm about a serving police officer stating on ukc that he will use the BMC communications as guidance to inform his decision-making on what's reasonable in the case of walker x or climber y being stopped.
That's the problem when you start taking responsibly for everybody, and brushing all BMC members with the same brush as all idiots who want to walk up Snowdon and who aren't BMC members.

The police should not be allowing the BMC's advice to influence their decisions. The BMC's advice touches on both legal and practical considerations, whereas the Police should only be concerned with upholding the law. They have no power to enforce what they think people "should" be doing in a non-legal sense. As far as upholding the law is concerned they should interpret that for themselves, not use the interpretation of a third party. So the policeman was wrong.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 28, 2020, 12:40:25 pm
Regards large carpark such as Stanage Plantation. Volunteer car park attendants could be a way forward. Climbers might be willing to hang around the Plantation carpark for a midweek morning if that was the price of climbing there in the afternoon. The attendant would direct people entering to suitable spaces (not next to people leaving a vehicle), and as people leave, to form a distanced queue if too many teams are returning to vehicles at once. Or whatever other common sense rules are devised.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 28, 2020, 12:44:36 pm

Consequences are obvious. There's evidence that the BMC's communications will be used by authorities to inform their decision-making on what's reasonable. I mentioned to Barrows in a pm about a serving police officer stating on ukc that he will use the BMC communications as guidance to inform his decision-making on what's reasonable in the case of walker x or climber y being stopped.
That's the problem when you start taking responsibly for everybody, and brushing all BMC members with the same brush as all idiots who want to walk up Snowdon and who aren't BMC members.

The police should not be allowing the BMC's advice to influence their decisions. The BMC's advice touches on both legal and practical considerations, whereas the Police should only be concerned with upholding the law. They have no power to enforce what they think people "should" be doing in a non-legal sense. As far as upholding the law is concerned they should interpret that for themselves, not use the interpretation of a third party. So the policeman was wrong.
That may be the case, but it hasn't stopped him doing it. And I doubt it would do anyone any favours to be pointing out his error if challenged.
This was my point earlier, that the BMC's article may have inadvertently made things more difficult for any climber getting challenged.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 28, 2020, 12:45:37 pm
Regards large carpark such as Stanage Plantation. Volunteer car park attendants could be a way forward. Climbers might be willing to hang around the Plantation carpark for a midweek morning if that was the price of climbing there in the afternoon. The attendant would direct people entering to suitable spaces (not next to people leaving a vehicle), and as people leave, to form a distanced queue if too many teams are returning to vehicles at once. Or whatever other common sense rules are devised.

And...

We’re back to wardens.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 28, 2020, 12:47:58 pm
Regards large carpark such as Stanage Plantation. Volunteer car park attendants could be a way forward. Climbers might be willing to hang around the Plantation carpark for a midweek morning if that was the price of climbing there in the afternoon. The attendant would direct people entering to suitable spaces (not next to people leaving a vehicle), and as people leave, to form a distanced queue if too many teams are returning to vehicles at once. Or whatever other common sense rules are devised.

And...

We’re back to wardens.
Better that climbers are policed by climbers, if it's that or not climbing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on April 28, 2020, 01:01:41 pm
That may be the case, but it hasn't stopped him doing it. And I doubt it would do anyone any favours to be pointing out his error if challenged.
This was my point earlier, that the BMC's article may have inadvertently made things more difficult for any climber getting challenged.

Likewise here the police are quite happy to turn a blind eye to locals seeking to limit access (unless a few of the villages near to me are now suddenly clearways and access is for "Residents Only" as the new signs seem to suggest).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on April 28, 2020, 01:04:47 pm
That may be the case, but it hasn't stopped him doing it. And I doubt it would do anyone any favours to be pointing out his error if challenged.
This was my point earlier, that the BMC's article may have inadvertently made things more difficult for any climber getting challenged.

The policeman in question was a climber posting on UKC in a hypothetical way, I don't think there are any actual instances of the BMC's advice affecting police decisions. Police feedback to the BMC has been the opposite way as far as I am aware - i.e. tell your members to stop climbing. My view is that the BMC should advise based on their own interpretation of the law and the other factors, to the best of their ability, which is what I believe they did, but they didn't get it completely right. They would need to be very careful about changing their advice on the off chance that the Police will use it to abuse their powers because they then risk giving incorrect advice (or increase the risk if we accept that the actual advice wasn't spot on in its analysis anyway).

The difficulty of giving good advice in this situation should not be underestimated. Whatever is said is going to be a compromise of competing factors that cannot please everyone. If the BMC leave their conclusions vague (i.e. make your own mind up) they risk lots of people taking the piss and annoying other agencies or landowners with whom they work who have come to stricter conclusions. if they say you can climb, they risk being wrong (and people taking the piss) and if they advise against climbing they annoy those who feel their right to make their own mind up has been removed.

Going forwards, the BMC will probably be attempting to influence the government's decisions about loosening the lockdown in favour of allowing climbing to restart. Part of that will be showing that the climbing community can self police. That argument is strengthened if, to date, climbers have been behaving in the spirit of the lockdown rather than seeking to explore the limits of the current restrictions.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 28, 2020, 01:05:44 pm
Regards large carpark such as Stanage Plantation. Volunteer car park attendants could be a way forward. Climbers might be willing to hang around the Plantation carpark for a midweek morning if that was the price of climbing there in the afternoon. The attendant would direct people entering to suitable spaces (not next to people leaving a vehicle), and as people leave, to form a distanced queue if too many teams are returning to vehicles at once. Or whatever other common sense rules are devised.

And...

We’re back to wardens.
Better that climbers are policed by climbers, if it's that or not climbing.

I know, I posited it about four thousand eleventy two pages back (in the Patel numbering system) and it didn’t go down well.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 28, 2020, 01:12:26 pm
Commissars surely instead of wardens? 😃
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 28, 2020, 01:50:13 pm
Quote
Oh yeah, because you're an organisation, and the general trend for organisations is to suck in all around them to justify their significance and grow funding. Who benefits? Not the members.

That's the bottom line for most of my disdain for the BMC's stance

Yes, I assumed that was your point. But it's not how they or any other representative org works, although I disagree that the point of significance is to grow funding. I see it from the angle that you can't credibly represent a user group on things such as access without having a significant percentage of that user group as members. I don't see a model for an alternative unless you can point me at one?

I would be much more comfortable (and I made these points in the meeting) if the first line of the BMC policy was 'the BMC have no power to ban climbing and hillwalking or to close mountains and crags'. I don't agree either with the advice to put all climbing and hillwalking on hold. It should have been something like 'stay local, stay solo, stay safe'. But that policy was put in place during the initial panic over secondary effects and now we are not in a position to change it without attracting massive attention. But we are where we are and there's not too much point bemoaning the initial response in a very tight spot, particularly as there seemed very little time or space for sensible debate, and I can't find a similar organisation with a significantly different stance - even surfing only manages to say "Our preference is to stay out the water. We hope you will join us, and the thousands of surfers who are standing in solidarity with the NHS" - I'm not sure that sort of virtue signalling would make me much happier tbh.

And as Ru has pointed out the main issue right now is the regs, the legal position is sufficiently unclear that the only way to know if climbing would contravene the regs is to get arrested and contest your fine in court.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 28, 2020, 01:57:00 pm
Commissars surely instead of wardens? 😃

A tsar in charge?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: danm on April 28, 2020, 02:03:28 pm
I'm nominating Barrows for the job as Warden for the Tor. Uniform can be a pair of knee pads.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 28, 2020, 02:06:48 pm
I'm nominating Barrows for the job as Warden for the Tor. Uniform can be a pair of knee pads.

Worn as epilettes?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Murph on April 28, 2020, 03:31:30 pm
Van man replied to comments on his minus ten raven tor video to say that the Peak Ranger, the Police and the BMC have all said he is absolutely fine to climb. And that envy isnt a good trait to have...

Just thought I would share that. It's all out there in the open I've not spied on anyone or filmed them in secret.

I still think it's just taking the piss out of all the stay-at-home climbers within striking distance of the peak.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on April 28, 2020, 03:51:18 pm
I'm nominating Barrows for the job as Warden for the Tor. Uniform can be a pair of knee pads.

(https://www.icge.co.uk/languagesciencesblog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/you_shall_not_pass1.jpg)
Lockdown has aged me...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on April 28, 2020, 03:52:50 pm
Van man replied to comments on his minus ten raven tor video to say that the Peak Ranger, the Police and the BMC have all said he is absolutely fine to climb. And that envy isnt a good trait to have...

Did he answer Wills question about where he got his orange trousers from? ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: kac on April 28, 2020, 03:55:04 pm
I trust what he has said about as much as his grades. As well as climbing at the tor Its pretty unbelievable this selfish idiot is putting his videos on youtube. The latest one hes even fist bumping his spotter. If my aim in life was to be a selfish prick I would be envious of him.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on April 28, 2020, 04:20:47 pm
You'd think after six weeks of living in a van those yellow trousers would be minging. Wonder how he keeps them so clean.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on April 28, 2020, 04:34:26 pm
Maybe he washes them in his own piss, hence clean looking and yellow.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 28, 2020, 05:50:07 pm
Maybe he washes them in his own piss, hence clean looking and yellow.

He needs to drink more.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on April 29, 2020, 08:40:29 am
Live Q&A with Rob Dyer, BMC Access Officer (England) at 12.30 tomorrowtoday via the BMC Facebook page

www.facebook.com/BritishMountaineeringCouncil/

Think you have to download the Facebook app to participate
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on April 29, 2020, 09:40:45 am

Going forwards, the BMC will probably be attempting to influence the government's decisions about loosening the lockdown in favour of allowing climbing to restart. Part of that will be showing that the climbing community can self police. That argument is strengthened if, to date, climbers have been behaving in the spirit of the lockdown rather than seeking to explore the limits of the current restrictions.
Agreed. As things stand the BMC can point to climbers as having shown exemplary compliance. However if the BMC delay constructive push-back, there is a growing risk that compliance will start to go down. In time there will be some/more negative media such as MR callouts to climbers, and the persuasive value of our collective compliance will be weakened. Now seems a good time to me to be attempting to influence government.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on April 29, 2020, 09:57:09 am
I put the point across yesterday to Dave T et al that an easily digestible (and hopefully acted upon) proposal to government / public bodies should categorise the different levels of (contamination) risk (incorporating advice) with a view to a graduated return with things like solo bouldering and hill walking at the bottom of the risk categories and crowded climbing gyms at the top.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 29, 2020, 10:26:32 am
Sketching up collapsing ice routes in the middle of the Cairngorms you wouldn't touch in a normal year should surely be at the top?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on April 29, 2020, 10:32:09 am
climbing gyms

Why would the BMC be concerned with what walls in the US are doing?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 29, 2020, 10:32:50 am
Sketching up collapsing ice routes in the middle of the Cairngorms you wouldn't touch in a normal year should surely be at the top?

Not from a contamination perspective  ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on April 29, 2020, 02:30:00 pm
Perhaps don't cycle to go climbing sketchy collapsing ice-falls as that would massively increase the risk.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on April 29, 2020, 03:33:31 pm
Sketching up collapsing ice routes in the middle of the Cairngorms you wouldn't touch in a normal year should surely be at the top?

Not from a contamination perspective  ;)

Depends how long the virus survives on your corpse after it's been retrieved.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on April 29, 2020, 04:11:43 pm
(https://www.pinclipart.com/picdir/middle/179-1794119_zombie-brains-png-clipart.png)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: onlineclimber on May 02, 2020, 10:51:28 pm
 I spotted the following by the entrance to Robin Hood's Cave today...  :furious:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eiawyaqxin04bgg/IMG_20200502_180850_7.jpg?dl=0

...if the crags were busy with walkers and climbers this would be a lot less likely. Hopefully this doesn't help elsewhere  >:(

tied to embed the image but it it didn't seem to work must be a newbie thing  :-[
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on May 02, 2020, 11:12:26 pm
Why don’t you actually say what your agenda is. Or does everyone have cross reference with UKClimbing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: onlineclimber on May 02, 2020, 11:58:08 pm
Why would you think a post about despicable vandalism has a hidden agenda  :slap:

Yes did post on UKC too i thought it deserved a wider audience so other climbers can keep a look out
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on May 03, 2020, 08:21:56 am
With a title” Why we should be climbing”  Not “why we need to educate people that graffiti is wrong”
This was happening even when we could go climbing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on May 03, 2020, 10:17:06 am
Why would you think a post about despicable vandalism has a hidden agenda  :slap:


...if the crags were busy with walkers and climbers this would be a lot less likely.
:-\
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ashtond6 on May 03, 2020, 01:49:03 pm
No need to be hostile to new ukb users. His agenda is clear and he is clearly just upset about some very very disappointing graffiti.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on May 03, 2020, 03:33:45 pm
To title a post why we should be climbing seems to me that they are using the threat of damage to the rocks to justify going out climbing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ashtond6 on May 03, 2020, 08:32:22 pm
He may well have phrased it badly but no excuse for being an arse to him for no reason :)
Then ukbers wonder why ukb has the unwelcoming reputation
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on May 03, 2020, 09:05:22 pm
Anyone who has climber in their user name brings out the Psychopath in me. :devangel:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on May 03, 2020, 09:09:48 pm

Then ukbers wonder why ukb has the unwelcoming reputation

We work hard to maintain this
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 03, 2020, 09:13:31 pm

Then ukbers wonder why ukb has the unwelcoming reputation

We work hard to maintain this

I haven told anybody to fuck off for several hours.

But, it is Sunday.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ashtond6 on May 03, 2020, 10:09:04 pm
All of you made me laugh out loud... wasnt expecting that response haha  :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: onlineclimber on May 04, 2020, 08:30:16 am
I'm still here, I have read UKB & (UKB) on and off over the years, there is some really useful information on here (Not always easy to find, I have just never posted). But just like everyone else I'm bored during lockdown the finger board isn't the same as going down the Tor.

I do think the forum comes across as very cliquey with quite a many people have nickname/pseudonym. Whilst this is common place on forums, on UKB it is more obvious that lots of people know each other personally centered around mainly the Peak area. Real names pop up now and again and so have worked out who some people are. The irony of having a shit pseudonym myself, is not lost. However I mainly just do stuff on my own so I don't think I know anyone on here personally, but thought perhaps it was time I contributed a bit more to the forums both here and UKC.

Back on topic, ok the title was click bait but the intention was not. I'm sure as you clearly also read UKC that you can see from the sentiment of my replies.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on May 04, 2020, 08:57:05 am
Welcome, onlineclimber.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on May 04, 2020, 12:33:37 pm
I think most of us "know" each other from talking shit in here. I think I've met less than half a dozen in the past, but admit I'm an outlier.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 04, 2020, 12:57:00 pm
Welcome, onlineclimber.

Don’t trust him, Online, he’s just luring you in for the full Will critique...

And a downgrade.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on May 04, 2020, 01:24:04 pm
And a downgrade.

DialupHillwalker?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on May 04, 2020, 04:40:54 pm
Whilst this is common place on forums, on UKB it is more obvious that lots of people know each other personally centered around mainly the Peak area.

I don't know the stats, but I'd hazard a guess that this is not correct. Or at least if there are more peak based people the margin is small. I'd also guess that more people know each other through the forum than from outside.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Moo on May 04, 2020, 04:46:07 pm
I think the elephant bit is quite good
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sherlock on May 04, 2020, 04:48:33 pm
And a downgrade.

DialupHillwalker?
:lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on May 04, 2020, 05:09:21 pm
I think the elephant bit is quite good

Aye, regular fucking Banksy.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on May 04, 2020, 05:10:31 pm
I think the elephant bit is quite good

Aye, regular fucking Banksy.

Blowing your own trumpet?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ashtond6 on May 05, 2020, 01:58:10 pm
New BMC article posted to the access page
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on May 05, 2020, 02:39:58 pm
here you go

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/when-will-i-go-climbing-and-hill-walking-again
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on May 05, 2020, 06:46:51 pm
I havent looked at all 52 pages of this thread but has this been mentioned???

- That when we are allowed out, within 10 minutes the end of the rope will have been put into your mouth about 12x.

- And a couple mins later, that very same bit of rope will be put into whoever you are climbing with's mouth another 12x...

Not wanting to gross everybody out but is worthy of working out what should be best practice for this situation.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on May 05, 2020, 06:49:10 pm
I havent looked at all 52 pages of this thread but has this been mentioned???

- That when we are allowed out, within 10 minutes the end of the rope will have been put into your mouth about 12x.

- And a couple mins later, that very same bit of rope will be put into whoever you are climbing with's mouth another 12x...

Not wanting to gross everybody out but is worthy of working out what should be best practice for this situation.

Bouldering  8)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on May 05, 2020, 07:00:58 pm
I havent looked at all 52 pages of this thread but has this been mentioned???

- That when we are allowed out, within 10 minutes the end of the rope will have been put into your mouth about 12x.

- And a couple mins later, that very same bit of rope will be put into whoever you are climbing with's mouth another 12x...

Not wanting to gross everybody out but is worthy of working out what should be best practice for this situation.

Clipping at your waist?
Not putting the rope in your mouth?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on May 05, 2020, 07:04:28 pm

the end of the rope will have been put into your mouth about 12x.

Not wanting to gross everybody out but is worthy of working out what should be best practice for this situation.

Three bolt sprints with the first two preclipped
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on May 05, 2020, 07:05:39 pm
You obviously haven't done a route that Mick Lovatt has bolted at Malham

Not everyone climbs at the tor you know...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on May 05, 2020, 07:26:30 pm
Pretty easy really. Ideally climb solely on your own rope. If you have to share, your partner uses the other end.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on May 05, 2020, 07:31:02 pm
We don't know where Rob's been. Personally, I wouldn't risk climbing on the same crag as his rope, let alone on a different end of it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on May 05, 2020, 07:48:00 pm
That reminds me Will, at some point I'll need a belay for South Gully at Kilnsey. Classic Arthur Dolphin route.

For some reason it's been removed from the ukc database.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on May 05, 2020, 07:53:44 pm
It'd better be in your book, else I'm not buying it...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on May 06, 2020, 10:26:05 am
- And a couple mins later, that very same bit of rope will be put into whoever you are climbing with's mouth another 12x...

No one puts a rope in their mouth any more. It died with fumble clipping and chain grabbing.

I sometimes wonder if you’ve only recently woken up from a 15 year coma.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on May 06, 2020, 10:28:34 am
I often put the rope in my mouth for clipping above my head :shrug: But it's also possible to only climb with people in you household (bummer if you don't live with a climber obviously ) and/or to climb on different ropes.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on May 06, 2020, 10:44:34 am
How else would you clip? Climb really slowly and always clip from waist?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on May 06, 2020, 12:40:14 pm
Sounds like some restriction easing from Monday is likely (see PMQs summaries)... will it make it easier to go out and play? Fingers crossed...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on May 06, 2020, 01:32:13 pm
Sounds like some restriction easing from Monday is likely (see PMQs summaries)... will it make it easier to go out and play? Fingers crossed...

No insights on what this will comprise on the news.

Done a bit of googling and Oliver Dowden is the Culture and Sport Secretary who is collating info on how restrictions in sport might be lifted.

Encouragingly the only interest listed on his Facebook page is “walking in the countryside”.

What’s the betting that golf courses will open on Monday?  :-\
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on May 06, 2020, 01:34:52 pm
Sounds like some restriction easing from Monday is likely (see PMQs summaries)... will it make it easier to go out and play? Fingers crossed...

No insights on what this will comprise on the news.

Done a bit of googling and Oliver Dowden is the Culture and Sport Secretary who is collating info on how restrictions in sport might be lifted.

Encouragingly the only interest listed on his Facebook page is “walking in the countryside”.

What’s the betting that golf courses will open on Monday?  :-\

My bosses golf course in Yorkshire is apparently opening on Monday...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on May 06, 2020, 01:36:07 pm
Furlough and golf back open..  :-\
It'll never work!!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on May 06, 2020, 04:18:56 pm

My bosses golf course in Yorkshire is apparently opening on Monday...

Complaints here about the lack of notice... cheeky buggers.

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/05/uk-golf-courses-could-be-given-just-a-few-hours-notice-about-reopening/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on May 06, 2020, 04:49:13 pm
No one puts a rope in their mouth any more. It died with fumble clipping and chain grabbing.
I still do that too. When was this announcement made?!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on May 06, 2020, 08:09:32 pm
He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.

All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on May 06, 2020, 09:10:59 pm
He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.

All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!

Though I'd imagine there is a fair amount of droplet spraying going on when obscenities are hurled.. :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on May 06, 2020, 09:25:43 pm
He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.

All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!

*Announcement* Also please note I will no longer be pre-clipping the third bolt.  :o

 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wood FT on May 06, 2020, 09:28:56 pm
He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.

All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!

 :wavecry:

He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.

All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!

*Announcement* Also please note I will no longer be pre-clipping the third bolt.  :o

 

Interesting. Whats brought that on?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: steveri on May 06, 2020, 09:42:52 pm
People golfing on my local course when I ran past. Guerrilla golfers? Do they even read the England Golf updates? Obviously I called the cops.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on May 06, 2020, 09:56:49 pm
*Announcement* Also please note I will no longer be pre-clipping the third bolt.  :o
 

Interesting. Whats brought that on?

Obviously I need to make it harder for myself.

No kneebars next
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on May 06, 2020, 10:40:58 pm
Kneebars on The Oak, isn’t that only the last move to clip the chains? You should be so lucky  :tease:

You always were cheating by having the third pre-clipped imo so would never have done it legit. Surely strong enough to clip the 3rd and do the route.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Coops_13 on May 17, 2020, 07:33:29 pm
Not sure if this is the right thread for this but I had a grim encounter yesterday while out:

My mate and I were trying this V6 and a bloke came over and started asking questions about it from a distance, OK so far... Then he asked if he could try it, and we explained that we were just climbing with each other and socially distancing from everyone else but he should come back when we're done. He said "I have pads" and I responded that we'd be max an hour then the boulder would be free. He said "But I haven't got long" so I replied (patience dwindling) "well you may have to come back another day then". He then proceeded to stand by the end of the boulder, blocking the top-out. We asked if he could move out of the way as he was blocking the end, he said that he wanted to watch us climb it. We said he could if he moved to a different spot. He moved (but not far), my mate tried it, we chatted for a bit ignoring him until he left. I went up to brush the top holds (that he was stood next to) before my next attempt and found one of the final crimps to be wet. My only explanation is that he gobbed on the hold when we weren't looking - it was a bone-dry day with no moisture on the trees above. We were pretty shocked and disgusted, he might not have been a normal functioning member of society...

Hopefully no-one else has an encounter as bizarre as this...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on May 17, 2020, 07:43:00 pm

Hopefully no-one else has an encounter as bizarre as this...
Aye to that.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on May 18, 2020, 11:47:47 am
That's F U.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/5545666/coronavirus-scotland-live-nicola-sturgeon-lockdown-ease-care-home/

Looks like we may get some easing here shortly.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ben_pritchard on May 25, 2020, 08:30:34 am
deleted
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on June 21, 2020, 10:17:22 am
After a lot of discussion on here during lockdown about what the new Covid etiquette should be out at the crags, just wondering what the current UKB collective thoughts and experiences are around this now?

I’ve mostly been out during the week and chosen reasonably unpopular lines at sport crags to avoid chances of sharing routes, and it hasn’t really been a consideration up to now but yesterday it was for the first time. The crag (Kilnsey) was probably busier than I’ve ever seen it, even pre-Covid, and all the stuff people had talked about doing once we could climb again had gone completely out of the window. If the ‘new norm’ is basically just the same as before then I’m not gonna swim against the tide, so just wanted to get an idea if this was the case now or just an exception yesterday.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: TobyD on June 21, 2020, 11:05:48 am
After a lot of discussion on here during lockdown about what the new Covid etiquette should be out at the crags, just wondering what the current UKB collective thoughts and experiences are around this now?

I’ve mostly been out during the week and chosen reasonably unpopular lines at sport crags to avoid chances of sharing routes, and it hasn’t really been a consideration up to now but yesterday it was for the first time. The crag (Kilnsey) was probably busier than I’ve ever seen it, even pre-Covid, and all the stuff people had talked about doing once we could climb again had gone completely out of the window. If the ‘new norm’ is basically just the same as before then I’m not gonna swim against the tide, so just wanted to get an idea if this was the case now or just an exception yesterday.

I'd say that obvious common sense is the best approach whatever anyone else does. No lift sharing, avoid crags if rammed, try not to crowd anywhere or have any extended close contact but don't stress too much about being less than 2m from people at a breezy crag in the open air. Don't put the rope in your mouth, wash hands asap afterwards... But generally just enjoy going climbing. It's pretty safe from a virus point of view unless you're a twat.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on June 21, 2020, 08:51:56 pm
Well this went down in way more of an internet flaming session in the other channel 😂

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/kilnsey_corona-721006?v=1#x9233246
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on June 21, 2020, 09:14:51 pm
Yes. That escalated quickly. How depressing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on June 21, 2020, 09:26:27 pm
Seems like clear communication at the crag could have saved a lot of typing! Good effort cleaning up dusty route though!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on June 21, 2020, 09:31:17 pm
I probably didn’t communicate well enough at the crag, and I was clearly coming from a place with different expectations of what was ok in terms of transmission risk. But I fully understand why he was annoyed and thought I was just hogging the route. If anyone does know him or you’re on here then I am sorry. I was a bit dismayed at the crag behaviour from a lot of people though (not this person).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on June 21, 2020, 09:53:10 pm
TBH I'd have probably been a bit frustrated myself even if there was a genuine reason behind just having clipped the first.

It's also far from uncommon to find others on the Puppeteer (especially if things get a little seepy) and surrounding routes these days since the more direct starts were added and given the popularity of the crag (especially so when the Peak is wet).

There are a handful of routes I'd say get very little attention but these mostly cross others.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Footwork on June 21, 2020, 09:54:21 pm
Don't worry about it Ali. Tensions seem to run a bit higher at busy sport crags I've found. Luckily most experiences have been positive with route sharing and draw swapping.

It did bring back memories of some complete  :wank: at Malham many years ago. His rope was on Seventh Aardvark but he hadn't touched it in ages. Asked if I could pull it down and have a red point but he said no as he was waiting for the shade and would jump on as soon as the shade arrived. Not a cloud in sight at the oven that day.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on June 21, 2020, 10:03:57 pm
Blimey Ali - to me that all reinforces:
(A) bouldering on my own....
(B) never doing anything with ropes and all that jazz...
(C) never going on UKC chat....

I’m quite happy with all of that!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on June 21, 2020, 10:14:25 pm
It's also far from uncommon to find others on the Puppeteer
Ok, I wasn’t aware of that. But it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Neil F on June 21, 2020, 10:34:50 pm
I thought the flaming of Ali on the other channel was outrageous.

I’m heartened to see that I wasn’t the only one after all....

Neil
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on June 21, 2020, 10:40:05 pm
Blimey Ali - to me that all reinforces:
(A) bouldering on my own....
(B) never doing anything with ropes and all that jazz...
(C) never going on UKC chat....

I’m quite happy with all of that!

Indeed, especially C. Forgotten what a nest of vipers it can be over there.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: danm on June 21, 2020, 11:59:49 pm
I thought I was reading the comments section of the Daily Mail tbh, zero point engaging with that unwarranted level of hostility.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on June 22, 2020, 12:20:40 am
I've not read the UKC thread beyond the OP, but it's not clear whether the first draw only was in or all of them with a rope in the first? If the former and you did that to me I'd probably pull your rope and remove your draw, and think giving you shit on the internet is fair enough; if the latter then I'd be annoyed but would think it's your shout in these circumstances...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on June 22, 2020, 06:03:32 am
...it's not clear whether the first draw only was in or all of them with a rope in the first? If the former and you did that to me I'd probably pull your rope and remove your draw,
The first draw only. But I’ve explained over there why it was in, and why I considered on this occasion it wouldn’t be a problem just to leave it there (because I thought it so unlikely anyone would be wanting to get on it even given how busy it was - it wasn’t just a simple case of trying to reserve the route). And I could clearly see the rope from where I’d be belaying - it’s about 10-15m away.

But the rope and quickdraw were in, I can’t change that now. The fact you and others say you’d just pull the rope is where I think we’re coming from different places given the current circumstances. And I’m open to the criticism about “why choose Kilnsey at a weekend” etc but up until this Saturday I’ve managed to avoid any situations like this, even going to the ‘Big Three’ crags. They just haven’t been that busy, even Kilnsey the previous Saturday. And I’ve chosen relatively unpopular lines even when the crag has been empty, just in case. But personally I’m still not comfortable touching other people’s stuff or them touching mine - ropes or quickdraws, and i’d avoid sharing a route or getting on something the same day. I accept that doesn’t align with most other people’s view now, but I assumed more or less that it did before this weekend. So anyone just casually saying they’ll pull my rope immediately puts me in the position of having to justify why I feel that’s not ok with me. And that’s uncomfortable. As I said on the other channel, my view might change on this in time but for now I’ll just make sure I adapt my crag choices again. Lesson learnt.

As for general Covid crag behaviour on Saturday and the reason I revived this thread...I witnessed or experienced the following: people brushing past or even bumping into me, someone absent mindedly pulling on my little warm up fingerboard thing hung beneath the route, up to 4 people swinging leads on the same route and quickdraws, large group swapping partners and sharing ropes throughout the day, conversation about lift sharing with what sounded like 3 or 4 in the car (I got the impression not from the same household), general mingling or sitting around pretty close, someone picking up our guidebook, someone asking to borrow our clipstick (awkward discussion declining). I realise this sounds like a grumpy old twat moaning and being over-sensitive (some of these may now be within govt guidelines - I’ve lost track) but it’s just so far away from what I imagined behaviour would be like when this was all being discussed during lockdown.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ged on June 22, 2020, 07:23:56 am
I've not read the UKC thread beyond the OP, but it's not clear whether the first draw only was in or all of them with a rope in the first? If the former and you did that to me I'd probably pull your rope and remove your draw, and think giving you shit on the internet is fair enough; if the latter then I'd be annoyed but would think it's your shout in these circumstances...

I'm surprised any intelligent adult would ever think that an acceptable response is "giving someone shit on the internet".

Also probably worth reading what Ali is saying rather than just listening to the OP. That's kind of the point.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on June 22, 2020, 07:44:32 am
I thought I was reading the comments section of the Daily Mail tbh, zero point engaging with that unwarranted level of hostility.
My only frustration with the guy is that he’s posted on there and then let it rumble on and on without responding even after I’ve tried to make amends and apologised directly to him several times.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on June 22, 2020, 08:13:56 am
Covid or no Covid I would have pulled your rope. You can’t reserve a route.

I understand your reluctance to sharing equipment but you can’t expect the same for the rock, do you leave a note at the bottom saying don’t touch for 72 hours. Did you And your partner check the routes you were going on hadn’t been done for a few days before you shared the surfaces.

Sounds to me that the crag was busy and you were just trying the classic put my bag on the chair next to me on the train policy and were challenged.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: RobK on June 22, 2020, 08:18:32 am
I thought the flaming of Ali on the other channel was outrageous.

I’m heartened to see that I wasn’t the only one after all....

Neil

I'm not sure if you're the same Neil F who posted on the other channel, but thought this was the best part of that thread:

"If all those getting on their high horses on this thread deploy those horses at the crag, the tricky undercut starts must have been all but eliminated!"
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on June 22, 2020, 08:31:11 am
Oh dear this is all going a bit ukc. Ali isn’t really defending leaving his gear in, he’s apologised. Alex and Gav - you’re just kicking at an open door.

Far more interesting to me is the reason Ali posted. Way back in this thread it was argued that it was perfectly possible to let people go climbing and maintain social distancing, and some of us argued that it was possible, but just wouldn’t happen. Everyone would go to the busy crags anyway, etc.

It sounds like that’s where we are now. This raises a bit of an issue; there will be people who wish to be more cautious sharing crags with people who are past giving a fuck. Without a bit of understanding and polite tolerance of the other perspective, this is going to allow people to fuck up other people’s days.

Ali’s story is one such example, another is when I was driven away from a small bouldering crag I’d been at for an hour by a group of six people who didn’t even think to ask if I’d mind.

Debating who’s right or wrong in each situation is pointless, since there are no absolutes here. But surely we should be advocating that everyone gives some consideration for others feelings at the moment?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on June 22, 2020, 08:39:43 am
I am not having ago but he asked our opinions. To me doing this wasnt acceptable pre Covid and that hasn’t changed.
In the past people just shared there kit so It wasn’t an issue. Now it is perhaps the solution is not to leave your kit in the route.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on June 22, 2020, 08:46:55 am
He asked your opinion about twelve posts ago and admitted he was probably in the wrong. The conversation has moved on.

Sorry Gav, but to keep dragging the conversation back falls squarely into the territory of having a go.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on June 22, 2020, 08:49:08 am
Sorry I should have opening the internet earlier in the morning so I keep current.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nik at work on June 22, 2020, 08:54:58 am
All good points Stu, a bit of consideration for others views and feelings is always great.

But as you say Ali asked for opinions, and Gav gave his, which seems fair enough to me.
I don’t think Ali should have left his rope in the route either (sorry, I’m kicking an open door as well...) but as you say he has apologised so hey-ho...

Overall this comes across as a bit of miscommunication and misunderstanding followed by some outraged bandwagon jumping.

Anyway discussions about where a rope should or shouldn’t be at Kilnsey will probably become academic if parking photos I’ve seen are anything to go by...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on June 22, 2020, 09:00:11 am
Yeah sorry Gav - but guilty of exactly what I’m complaining about here.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on June 22, 2020, 09:15:06 am
Read your reply now Ali (didn't read the rest of the thread, too long!) - seems very reasonable, especially that you would have stripped your stuff out if it had been his proj. Pity it sounds like he didn't engage on the thread, probably because your post was too reasonable! Maybe edit it to call him a knob and you'll get a response ;)

RE: behaviour - I'd say Kilnsey on Sat is reflective of how the peak has been the last few weeks. Things started ok for the first few weeks but have definitely returned to semi-normal. Most teen/20s climbers I've seen/heard at the crag don't appear to give a shit about lift sharing or groups or distancing.

P.s. Kilnsey had probably <50% of the numbers on Sunday, think it was just the combo of the forecast and the peak being wet why it was so busy

P.p.s. I'm sceptical that sharing draws is notably more unsafe than climbing a route and then someone else climbing it. E.g. it sounds like your girlfriend was on ground effect about 1hr before Ella was - not sure that's significantly different to sharing, though I guess it reduces transmission possibility to 1 direction rather than 2 so maybe it is?? Thinking aloud here...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Neil F on June 22, 2020, 09:30:45 am

I'm not sure if you're the same Neil F who posted on the other channel, but thought this was the best part of that thread:

"If all those getting on their high horses on this thread deploy those horses at the crag, the tricky undercut starts must have been all but eliminated!"

Yep, that was me.

It felt a bit like putting your head in the lion's den, posting in support of Ali in the face of such an overwhelming blizzard of criticism, so I thought I'd hide behind an attempt at humour...   :'(

Fortunately the thread became much more balanced after that, but I wouldn't have wanted to be in Ali's shoes in the face of the initial onslaught.

Neil
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Jerry Morefat on June 22, 2020, 09:59:26 am
It sounds like that’s where we are now. This raises a bit of an issue; there will be people who wish to be more cautious sharing crags with people who are past giving a fuck. Without a bit of understanding and polite tolerance of the other perspective, this is going to allow people to fuck up other people’s days.

 :agree: .

FWIW Ali, if I had wanted to do the route, I would have probably asked if I could have pulled your rope and when you explained you would rather I didn't as you were being careful re: CV-19 I would have totally understand and moved on. The "well you shouldn't have been at the crag if you were concerned about CV-19" argument is a little intolerant in my opinion. It's perfectly possible to take precautions at busy crags, even Kilnsey I would have thought.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on June 22, 2020, 10:19:59 am
FWIW Ali, if I had wanted to do the route, I would have probably asked if I could have pulled your rope and when you explained you would rather I didn't as you were being careful re: CV-19 I would have totally understand and moved on.

I agree with this if someone is already fully on the route (been up it, put draws in etc), but like I said earlier, not if they've just smashed draw 1 in to reserve the route. Turns out the difficulty here was that it was neither of those 2 options...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on June 22, 2020, 10:41:03 am
As for general Covid crag behaviour on Saturday and the reason I revived this thread...I witnessed or experienced the following: people brushing past or even bumping into me, someone absent mindedly pulling on my little warm up fingerboard thing hung beneath the route, up to 4 people swinging leads on the same route and quickdraws, large group swapping partners and sharing ropes throughout the day, conversation about lift sharing with what sounded like 3 or 4 in the car (I got the impression not from the same household), general mingling or sitting around pretty close, someone picking up our guidebook, someone asking to borrow our clipstick (awkward discussion declining). I realise this sounds like a grumpy old twat moaning and being over-sensitive (some of these may now be within govt guidelines - I’ve lost track) but it’s just so far away from what I imagined behaviour would be like when this was all being discussed during lockdown.

Regards the general discussion, when I've been out bouldering in the past couple of weeks it's been similar; some being cautious and keeping to themselves, others completely reverting to pre-covid behaviour, lift-sharing, etc.

To be honest though I have complete sympathy with those now ignoring the guidelines. The gradual relaxation of lockdown has been so poorly managed it's easy to understand how most people have just switched off and started making their own minds up about what is acceptable or not.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on June 22, 2020, 11:30:42 am
I agree with this if someone is already fully on the route (been up it, put draws in etc), but like I said earlier, not if they've just smashed draw 1 in to reserve the route.

This is where I was at.

Regards the general discussion, when I've been out bouldering in the past couple of weeks it's been similar; some being cautious and keeping to themselves, others completely reverting to pre-covid behaviour, lift-sharing, etc.

Cycling seems to be going the same way too. My Dad's club are riding as groups of six, noting the limitations on numbers but not really acknowledging the SD requirements (they're all old). I think it's pretty difficult to do this as a pair let alone 6!

To be honest though I have complete sympathy with those now ignoring the guidelines. The gradual relaxation of lockdown has been so poorly managed it's easy to understand how most people have just switched off and started making their own minds up about what is acceptable or not.

This should probably be in one of the other Covid threads but a group of around 10 Lancs./Yorks. gastro-pubs went into administration last week (300 employees). As a result another similar group has announced they're opening on the 4/7 regardless of the Gov. position (after seeing what's happened to the other owner/friend) as there's "nothing to lose" and beyond that date they would need to let 25% of their staff go immediately.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on June 22, 2020, 12:15:30 pm
Key point from that thread for me was:

Quote
you initially said if I wasn't happy about you getting on it just say no and that would be fine

A bit of honesty at the start and I'm sure the response would have been different.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on June 22, 2020, 12:47:11 pm
Communication issue- people don't find it easy to say what they mean, then feel uncomfortable afterwards. I'm no different. It reminds me of this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/chart-shows-what-british-people-say-what-they-really-mean-and-what-others-understand-a6730046.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/chart-shows-what-british-people-say-what-they-really-mean-and-what-others-understand-a6730046.html)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on June 22, 2020, 01:23:25 pm
Sounds to me like several things are simultaneously true here.

1) Ali was wrong to try and reserve the route.
2) the other guy was wrong not approaching the conversation with some tact and consideration.
3) there is a disconnect between what some people think should be current crag etiquette versus those who have returned to an almost pre covid state of affairs. That us visible even on this thread.
4) UKC is a vipers nest. The first responses were fine. The next 100, less so!

In my sport climbing the last few weeks I have been sharing ropes and draws, but sanitising reasonably often and doing my best to keep my distance from everyone at the crag. This is sometimes easy, sometimes hard. Others will be being stricter but unless you are climbing something very unpopular I think that it's basically certain that some level of shared use of equipment will happen. Particularly if you aren't onsighting, as no one is going to take all the draws out between each go.

Basically I have no doubt Ali is coming from a good place and one of conviction but I definitely think you're swimming against the crowd on this one.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on June 22, 2020, 02:12:57 pm
....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.

I think this is a good time to remember that, when asked Three Nine replied to some poor bloke telling him to go and find another route at Kilnsey (admittedly there were a few others already).

Is he still banned?  :worms: :tumble:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on June 22, 2020, 03:18:43 pm
....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.

I think this is a good time to remember that, when asked Three Nine replied to some poor bloke telling him to go and find another route at Kilnsey (admittedly there were a few others already).

Is he still banned?  :worms: :tumble:

I believe so.

We were Facebook friends, but my overt atheism and his Bible thumping, antiabortion, Catholic stance, lead to a FB divorce...

Anyway, I never could quite reconcile his declared Christian ethos, with his incredibly thorny personality and treatment of others. Hey ho.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on June 22, 2020, 03:20:50 pm
He's not been climbing for a while so I doubt he has a clue if he's still banned.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on June 22, 2020, 03:27:14 pm
Hope he finally managed to lose his virginity and it was all that he’d dreamed about.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: turnipturned on June 22, 2020, 03:36:24 pm
I think we should employ a 10mile radius local only rule at Kilnsey, be done with all you f**ckers.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on June 22, 2020, 03:39:20 pm
I think we should employ a 10mile radius local only rule at Kilnsey, be done with all you f**ckers.

Weren't there signs up to this effect in the village at the height of the pandemic? You're probably a bit too much of an outsider for their liking Dan  :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on June 22, 2020, 04:56:17 pm
Only if you've been living in the place for 3 generations do you get to paddle into a wave, Broch rules.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on June 22, 2020, 05:15:40 pm
Ali asked for opinions, and Gav gave his, which seems fair enough to me.
I was just asking for opinions and experiences around general Covid crag etiquette on here to get an idea of what the consensus now was, not about that specific incident. I only read the stuff on the other channel after I'd revived this thread. But if anyone else wants to have a go at me that hasn't already that's also fine!  :)

Most teen/20s climbers I've seen/heard at the crag don't appear to give a shit about lift sharing or groups or distancing.
I've only had two bad experiences at the crag since Covid came along. One just before lockdown in March when my girlfriend was top roping something at an almost entirely empty crag and a group of teen/20s climbers asked to warm up on our rope. When she said she'd rather they didn't due to infection risk but would be off the route soon they looked at us like we were from another planet. The other was on Saturday with people similar age. Maybe it's the youth invincibility thing? Every other time out has been pretty respectful with people keeping their distance and checking it's ok with others before they did whatever they wanted to do.

Key point from that thread for me was:
Quote
you initially said if I wasn't happy about you getting on it just say no and that would be fine
A bit of honesty at the start and I'm sure the response would have been different.
I didn't want to write a full transcript of the conversation over there on the other channel but this original position of just wanting to warm up on something and it being fine to say no changed very quickly to "Well I'm gonna get on it at some point today anyway" in an attempt to twist my arm. Despite there being a 7b+ free in between us and the route he was trying to get on. That's what got my back up and made me dig my heels in I think. But I shouldn't have done that, I should have just lowered my partner down and stripped the draw out for him.

I have no doubt Ali is coming from a good place and one of conviction but I definitely think you're swimming against the crowd on this one.
Yes agreed. From replies on both channels I can see that's the case and will adapt to avoid a repeat.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on June 22, 2020, 05:54:32 pm
Deputy Chief Medical Officer just said you have a 1 in 1700 chance of “meeting the virus” out in the community. The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule. I’d be more concerned about my belayer being distracted with so many climbers at the crag.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on June 22, 2020, 06:01:07 pm
Basically all the Peak people need to stay down south and not come up here clarting up our crags.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on June 22, 2020, 06:06:47 pm
Tom, if that’s what he said it’s highly misleading.

1/1700 people currently have Covid-19. To find your chances of encountering Covid at kilnsey, multiply by the number of people there.

Still small, isn’t it?

But with 50-100 climbers on a busy day it’s up to 1/17 which is not so small.

I’d concentrate on the odds of transmission, which thankfully are also small.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mikenty on June 22, 2020, 06:17:31 pm
....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.

I think this is a good time to remember that, when asked Three Nine replied to some poor bloke telling him to go and find another route at Kilnsey (admittedly there were a few others already).

Is he still banned?  :worms: :tumble:

Ah, this was me. To be honest he wasn’t very intimidating so we just got on the Bulge anyway :wank:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on June 22, 2020, 06:35:33 pm
The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule.
I can’t explain it. Rationally I know all this, and I’ve done far riskier things in my climbing life. I’ve just got completely paranoid for some reason.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Adam Lincoln on June 22, 2020, 06:39:11 pm
The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule.
I can’t explain it. Rationally I know all this, and I’ve done far riskier things in my climbing life. I’ve just got completely paranoid for some reason.

Probably used all your bravery when you ticked Pembroke.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on June 22, 2020, 06:49:06 pm
Tom, if that’s what he said it’s highly misleading.

What she said was “ You’d have to meet 1700 people before you came across a case of infection ” so you’re right of course. Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers and can imagine why people might find that uncomfortable, Covid or no Covid.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: ali k on June 22, 2020, 07:35:09 pm
Basically all the Peak people need to stay down south and not come up here clarting up our crags.
Don’t worry next weekend I won’t be climbing but I’ll be at kilnsey in my hazmat suit checking people as they park up. Lift sharing with no proof of address = brick through the window to add ventilation for the return journey. Once the parking fills up I’ll patrol the crag for rule breakers, take photos and compile a report for a ukc thread on Monday.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 36chambers on June 22, 2020, 07:43:34 pm
Basically all the Peak people need to stay down south and not come up here clarting up our crags.
Don’t worry next weekend I won’t be climbing but I’ll be at kilnsey in my hazmat suit checking people as they park up. Lift sharing with no proof of address = brick through the window to add ventilation for the return journey. Once the parking fills up I’ll patrol the crag for rule breakers, take photos and compile a report for a ukc thread on Monday.

You could hang a bright rope from the first bolt of every route to make it easier to judge how far apart people are ;D
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on June 22, 2020, 07:52:36 pm
I think lesson learnt and move on. Make a donation to the bolt fund / encourage others to do the same and make something good out of the situation. Sounds like a sledgehammer has been used to knock in a nail and I'm sure Ali was not intending to upset when he set off from home.

Think the BMC should be involved (in whatever capacity they see fit). An update of online relevant crag visiting information needs to take place. There's two issues here (maybes three), traveling from afar / parking, homing in on honeypot crags and routes.

Does the contact app work at Kilnsey, my phone never works once off the road. A positive case would mean a quiet crag for 2 weeks.

And Ali- could have been worse, at least your rope wasn't in the first couple of clips of that route Gresham retro'd a couple years back 🙂
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Rob F on June 22, 2020, 08:06:57 pm
... in fact, the two parties should team up and make a utube clip detailing best practice. It would make a beautiful end to the whole situation.

(With Will in the background too pumped to clip the belay karabina at his 10th attempt of trying)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ged on June 22, 2020, 08:44:06 pm
The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule.
I can’t explain it. Rationally I know all this, and I’ve done far riskier things in my climbing life. I’ve just got completely paranoid for some reason.

Surely it's fairly easy to explain. You have strong will to not get a viral infection that has the potential to be really bloody nasty. And a strong urge to do the right moral thing and not help said infection spread. I don't think that's being paranoid.

Anyway I've been way too nice to you for the last 2 days now. Piss off back to your crappy limestone choss piles you lanky twat. Aaah that feels better.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on June 22, 2020, 09:10:59 pm
Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers

I don't think I could cope with crowded crags any more, especially with CV 19 now. I keep getting a hankering for a trip down to the gritstone, then remember how crowded some of them get, and think I'm probably better off falling off my shitty, sharp greasy, eliminates on my own (no I don't mean Peak Limestone).

Likewise heading down to the SW for a surf trip. Need to accept I'm an intolerant, antisocial old bastard these days.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on June 22, 2020, 09:47:28 pm
😂 😂 😂 It's true three nine in person is a lot less intimidating than his (once) online presence!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on June 22, 2020, 10:00:02 pm
I think there's a bit of a problem with BMC RAD, or at least there is in Lancs. I noticed that a crag local to me was being advised on FB (from the local BMC page) as being temporarily off-limits. However, I'd checked the RAD that morning thinking I'd go and test my injured wrist out and it wasn't mentioned (it's still marked as green today). Similar noises were made about more popular crags by various friends. I messaged the BMC local FB page and got a response saying they'd contact the local access rep but thought it was still off limits and the reason for RAD being out of date was insufficient volunteers able to update it/furloughed staff.

UKC were quick to add something to their database regarding Covid19 which has been amended over time (and is now fairly minimal). It seems less than ideal that RAD hasn't had similar, even it was just a blanket piece of text saying access hadn't yet been reviewed in light of Covid19.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on June 22, 2020, 10:44:11 pm
I know a couple of people who seem to have access to the RAD who definitely aren't the access rep. Not sure how it works over t'hills but maybe ask whether you can have access and see what they say?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on June 23, 2020, 12:06:00 am

 Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers...

:lol:
To think I spent most of last summer their on my tod.
Did notice the layby has been a bit full the last times I've passed.
I hope the heaving masses are looking after that crappy wall/fence! It'll be Whitehouses all over again if a herd of cows escapes into Shacklow Woods!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: UnkArl on June 23, 2020, 11:12:48 am
Craggy Guildford have announced they’re re-opening on the 6th July  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on June 23, 2020, 11:28:20 am

 Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers...

:lol:
To think I spent most of last summer their on my tod.
Did notice the layby has been a bit full the last times I've passed.
I hope the heaving masses are looking after that crappy wall/fence! It'll be Whitehouses all over again if a herd of cows escapes into Shacklow Woods!

From the last insta pic I saw of LB the fence looked in a bit of a sorry (not functioning) state. Hope someone has propped it back up...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on June 23, 2020, 11:42:49 am
You'd have thought with that many visitors at least one would have a working set of eyes and half a gram of common sense.  :wall:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on June 23, 2020, 11:43:13 am

 Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers...

:lol:
To think I spent most of last summer their on my tod.
Did notice the layby has been a bit full the last times I've passed.
I hope the heaving masses are looking after that crappy wall/fence! It'll be Whitehouses all over again if a herd of cows escapes into Shacklow Woods!

From the last insta pic I saw of LB the fence looked in a bit of a sorry (not functioning) state. Hope someone has propped it back up...

It was fine last time I was there a couple of weeks ago.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on June 23, 2020, 11:52:16 am
Excellent! thats great to hear!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy B on June 23, 2020, 12:07:28 pm
The fence was in good condition in Wednesday night.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on June 23, 2020, 01:03:51 pm
Craggy Guildford have announced they’re re-opening on the 6th July  :popcorn:

Only if they break the law.

Indoor gyms, which covers us as a climbing wall “must remain closed for now”.

Same for hairdressers.

This round of easing has all been about pubs, that’s all. I can understand why, to a point, but the government has been bloody irresponsible with it’s “teasing” approach. I have been busting a gut to instal a massive ventilation system, to be able to open asap.
I could have been outside climbing or diving instead and working at a more reasonable pace. It also means the guys stay on furlough a bit longer.


Also, how do you drink beer with a mask on?

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on June 23, 2020, 01:16:53 pm
Lots of other walls announcing opening as well OMM.

Did they all just jump the gun before today’s announcement or looking at ways round the guidance?

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Brannock on June 23, 2020, 01:24:48 pm
Can walls claim they are leisure centres? Seems quite a stretch.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on June 23, 2020, 01:26:23 pm
Johnson specifically said gyms must stay shut, don't see how a wall could open in that case
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on June 23, 2020, 01:40:05 pm
I have never been to a climbing “gym” nor do I climb “blocs”so I will be allowed to go.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on June 23, 2020, 02:39:17 pm
Might it be a similar situation to the pubs who've basically said they're opening irrespective of what the Government say? I.e., we're going to go bust if we don't open, so we've nothing to lose and might as well take our chances.

Have had emails from all the gyms I've given my address to saying they're hoping to open very soon. Personally think they should go ahead with the virus now at such a low level in the community.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on June 23, 2020, 03:06:45 pm
Lots of other walls announcing opening as well OMM.

Did they all just jump the gun before today’s announcement or looking at ways round the guidance?

I think they did.

We were all ginned up to go.

Spoke to our legal guys at Peninsula, they don’t see any way that we are not an indoor gym or sports facility and therefore cannot open. That’s just from an employment perspective, if we employed people to be here, we’d be doing so illegally. 

Not sure what the ABC position is.

Edit:

Ironically, after years of resisting, we decided to apply to the ABC. Iwas doing forms this morning.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on June 23, 2020, 03:25:23 pm
Places of worship are allowed to open on the 4th too for communal worship (Churches  - expect Mosques too)

Seems surprising to not allow gyms in that context.

Obviously the church contributes more to the Conservative party than the Climbing Wall Owners federation (etc...) :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on June 23, 2020, 03:33:34 pm
This is my church, this is where I heal my hurts...

Wonder if it's possible to get places like UCR re sanctified?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on June 23, 2020, 04:14:08 pm
The fence was in good condition in Wednesday night.
Thanks. The state of the wall stresses me. Have bought some bits from farm suppliers to tidy it up a bit, next time I get chance.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on June 23, 2020, 04:14:13 pm
We’re thinking of reclassifying the activity as an “Eye test”. Colour and depth perception self assessment centre...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on June 23, 2020, 04:40:51 pm
The fence was in good condition in Wednesday night.
Thanks. The state of the wall stresses me. Have bought some bits from farm suppliers to tidy it up a bit, next time I get chance.

Good on you. I've noticed one of the farmers nearby has re fenced his field, so I have screwed blocks in on some of the posts so people don't stand in the wire trying to climb over.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark20 on October 21, 2020, 09:50:29 am
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....
Just trying to get an idea of how people on here are viewing the risks of climbing this time round? In terms of virus spread, public perception,  and overloading NHS
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on October 21, 2020, 10:01:45 am
I get the feeling climbing walls will be staying open (could be wrong). The idea that going to the wall is safer than going to the crag is beyond absurd. Put me down as ignoring such 'guidance'. Mainly because I don't want entirely give up climbing, but I also don't want to catch or spread the virus.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on October 21, 2020, 10:12:02 am
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....
Just trying to get an idea of how people on here are viewing the risks of climbing this time round? In terms of virus spread, public perception,  and overloading NHS

I am going to struggle. I understand not going to a hotel in a Tier 1/2 area for a holiday, however driving from one Tier 3 to another to interact with no-one/few people and stand on a windswept moor seems a bit far fetched when I can sit inside in a restaurant for 2hrs with other disease riddled people.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: scragrock on October 21, 2020, 10:17:32 am
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....
Just trying to get an idea of how people on here are viewing the risks of climbing this time round? In terms of virus spread, public perception,  and overloading NHS

This is an interesting one and i think may affect all of us sooner or later{even up here in the Highlands}.
Having spoken to local folks{Non climbers} in the various spots south of Inverness it is definitely a question of perception and therefore tension leading to problems with access.

I know 1 or 2 climbers who went and climbed during the first Lockdown and it was clearly noted by the locals thus lumping us ALL into the "Bloody rule breaking climbers" camp.

I am Not arguing re the Politics or Science surrounding Covid but it is worth bearing in mind that this present crisis will not last forever BUT how we behave may affect future access for us and the subsequent generations.   
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 21, 2020, 10:27:08 am
This is interesting; there is a difference between the law and gov guidance. https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/government-law-and-guidance-coronavirus-crisis

However, as you rightly say, enduring perceptions do not need to be based on the finer points of law..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on October 21, 2020, 10:34:28 am
Yes, there's no law that says you can't leave a tier 3 area. The government web pages are pretty clear that this is the advice though:

Quote
In addition, we are advising people not to travel into or out of an area if it has been categorised as a very high alert level area. This is part of wider measures to help manage the risk of transmission. You can continue to travel into or out of very high alert level areas if you need to for work, education, to access youth services or because of caring responsibilities.

What makes the "locals" issue potentially awkward is that Derbyshire is not in Tier 3. Like Bonjoy, I'd struggle with the idea of not going outside but going to the wall. I'll probably still go out, but I might well avoid busier areas and leave crags if there are more than 6 people in one area - mainly to avoid scenes that might piss off locals.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 21, 2020, 10:39:14 am
I get the feeling climbing walls will be staying open (could be wrong). The idea that going to the wall is safer than going to the crag is beyond absurd. Put me down as ignoring such 'guidance'. Mainly because I don't want entirely give up climbing, but I also don't want to catch or spread the virus.

I think the walls situation is very interesting. Initial disclaimer - I've NOT been to a wall since March.

From those I know who've been - its generally to the larger new gen large lots of space walls at non peak times and they've said its fine. The exception are a couple of people I know who have been to the smaller 1st Gen walls at busy times and said they were a nightmare. Groups of 20 somethings all gathered together - pretty much as it used to be.

If I were a wall owner, I would (a) be very happy it looks like we can stay open (b) really worried how on earth to enforce the 'no climbing in a group outside of your household' rule. Because it would be pretty easy for someone to complain - or the council to come around and have a look and shut you down because of this. A hard one to keep an eye on. Its not the same as a bar/restaraunt where people are expected to sit at the same table so groups can (in theory) be more clearly separated.

I know the Depot's have upped their messaging (on SM at least) about wearing face masks etc..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on October 21, 2020, 10:42:19 am
I think the walls situation is very interesting. Initial disclaimer - I've NOT been to a wall since March.

From those I know who've been - its generally to the larger new gen large lots of space walls at non peak times and they've said its fine.

(https://www.dgsiegel.net/files/bhm/bullet-holes.png)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on October 21, 2020, 10:43:08 am
I know the Depot's have upped their messaging (on SM at least) about wearing face masks etc..

The Depot vibe has totally changed, for the better. Mask on at ALL times except when actually climbing, regulare reminders over the tannoy etc. They've also reduced their numbers.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: slab_happy on October 21, 2020, 11:09:01 am
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....

It's the whole of South Yorkshire going into Tier 3, not just Sheffield, so I think some chunks of the Peak are within that boundary.

It's surprisingly hard to find maps showing exactly where the county border runs, but it looks from Google like the whole Burbage valley is in South Yorkshire, and the boundary seems to run along Millstone and part of Stanage, so which side the rocks themselves are considered to fall on, I do not know.

I can't convince myself that it makes any significant difference to transmission risk whether the crag you're at is inside or fractionally outside the county boundary, but now I'm curious to know where the boundary actually is.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on October 21, 2020, 11:27:16 am
Well exactly, for climbers in Sheffield this could lead to more climbers at walls and massive overcrowding at Burbage and Stanage i.e. net increase in opportunities for transmission.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 21, 2020, 11:33:56 am
This is very different from the proper lockdown we had earlier in the year though. Now people are allowed to travel for work, schools will be open, all shops will be open...

There will be zero enforcement between different tier areas - its guidance/advisory (apart from going to Wales..)...

I will carry on resolutely avoiding all busy sites - but not feeling guilty about finding esoteric midweek obscurity in the Peak.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on October 21, 2020, 12:56:51 pm
I guess all the mag lime choss is included in the South Yorks region so there’s that to look forward to!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on October 21, 2020, 02:21:54 pm
This is interesting; there is a difference between the law and gov guidance.

As a rule of thumb when you're reading the government advice websites, if it says "should" then it's guidance but not law, and if it says "must" then it's the law. Not foolproof, but they have generally been sticking to this convention so far as I can see.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on October 21, 2020, 02:59:22 pm
As an aside, any insight into the use of 'must' vs 'shall'? In the industry standards and guidance I've been involved in drafting we always use 'shall' (and 'should'), but I get the impression the UK legal world is following the US on preferring 'must' instead?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 21, 2020, 03:04:30 pm
This is interesting; there is a difference between the law and gov guidance.

As a rule of thumb when you're reading the government advice websites, if it says "should" then it's guidance but not law, and if it says "must" then it's the law. Not foolproof, but they have generally been sticking to this convention so far as I can see.

That’s how I have always understood the Highway Code.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on October 21, 2020, 03:23:19 pm
This is interesting; there is a difference between the law and gov guidance.

As a rule of thumb when you're reading the government advice websites, if it says "should" then it's guidance but not law, and if it says "must" then it's the law. Not foolproof, but they have generally been sticking to this convention so far as I can see.

That’s how I have always understood the Highway Code.

Same applies in UK financial services regulation, although in practice here a safety first approach often means "should" ends up meaning "must" anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: danm on October 21, 2020, 04:32:35 pm
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....
Just trying to get an idea of how people on here are viewing the risks of climbing this time round? In terms of virus spread, public perception,  and overloading NHS

I am going to struggle. I understand not going to a hotel in a Tier 1/2 area for a holiday, however driving from one Tier 3 to another to interact with no-one/few people and stand on a windswept moor seems a bit far fetched when I can sit inside in a restaurant for 2hrs with other disease riddled people.

You've still got Hobson Moor Quarry though.....

When it comes to climbing outside, people will make their own choice. Post Cummingsgate, I doubt many would judge those bending the rules if they socially distance and don't take the piss too much. I'll probably have to toe the line, being a petty bureaucrat these days.

Speaking of which, this week has mainly consisted of running around like a blue arsed fly trying to keep up with the ever shifting sands of Government policy in order to help come up with a battle plan to try and help keep walls open. Things are looking good in England, for now, but it's much darker scenes in Wales. Already battered by the local travel restrictions, and before that a 5 week longer lockdown than here, they are now facing down the barrel of a gun with the strict lockdown.

In terms of safety, the data seems to support that walls and gyms are not major hubs of transmission. Not compared to cramming students into halls together anyway. What a shitshow.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on October 21, 2020, 04:59:06 pm
Is there any climbing wall specific evidence? I think extrapolating from gyms in general doesn't tell you a lot about walls as they're fundamentally different.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: JamieG on October 21, 2020, 05:46:13 pm

You've still got Hobson Moor Quarry though.....


And the whole Chew Valley (Wimberry, Dovestones, Running Hill pits) and Longdendale (Black Tor, Tintwhistle, Shining Clough). Possibly up Blackstone Edge area too. They all fall under Greater Manchester as far as I know. They will all be quieter for climbing than Hobson Moor I would think. Although the car parking at the popular walking spots is super busy at the weekends at the moment. So best avoided for those reasons. I was up Wimberry yesterday afternoon and didn't see another climber despite it being the best conditions all week. Rarely see people out this way.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 21, 2020, 06:27:42 pm
And all the quarries around Bolton are part of GM. And if Lancs is T3 too is there an issue going from one T3 to another..
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on October 21, 2020, 06:48:58 pm
As an aside, any insight into the use of 'must' vs 'shall'?

"Shall" also conveys an obligation, like "must." But "shall" is a bit old fashioned and has fallen out of common usage as an obligation so "must" is now preferred as everyone knows what it means.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on October 21, 2020, 07:02:20 pm
Ta. From what I've read 'shall' is still the preferred term of the EC, and hence in all EN standards.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on October 21, 2020, 07:30:09 pm
Engineering standards (BS:EN) use shall for requirements, should for recommendations, shall not for prohibitions and may for permissions (this one can get a bit complicated).

Must is not used because of ambiguity as to whether it refers to a requirement of the standard or external constraints.

Will is not used because of ambiguity over the future tense.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on October 21, 2020, 08:06:41 pm
Engineering standards (BS:EN) use shall for requirements, should for recommendations, shall not for prohibitions and may for permissions (this one can get a bit complicated).

Must is not used because of ambiguity as to whether it refers to a requirement of the standard or external constraints.

Will is not used because of ambiguity over the future tense.

True, Will can be quite ambiguous at times but he’s usually just contrary.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on October 21, 2020, 08:08:13 pm
Must is not used because of ambiguity as to whether it refers to a requirement of the standard or external constraints.


Ah that's the knowledge I was after, thanks!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Jerry Morefat on October 21, 2020, 08:08:52 pm
Well this thread has certainly turned into a fascinating discussion on what constitutes best practice when it comes to regulations in many industries  :) . However, I'm no closer to knowing that, in topping out Ulysses on Sunday, whether this will take me from Derbyshire to south Yorkshire and if it does, whether it's best I downclimb from the top.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on October 21, 2020, 08:11:56 pm
Is there any climbing wall specific evidence? I think extrapolating from gyms in general doesn't tell you a lot about walls as they're fundamentally different.

There might be some, but I think it'll be mostly useless as it'll probably focus on simple case numbers, as opposed to what we should actually be interested in; how many people actually suffer a serious / life-changing / enduring illness, or end up dying from it. Based purely on my rough idea of the demographic of climbing gyms (generally <50yrs old, fit and healthy, etc.), my guess is that number will be vanishingly small.

I'm getting more and more sceptical about lockdown generally. I simply cannot see that it's worth the cost (on all levels), and I suspect that we're still doing it because a) people are still scared because they've been missold statistics they don't understand, b) the scientists are emotionally attached to their original approach, and c) the politicians are vulnerable to the idea that the whole episode leaves blood on their hands.

To be clear I don't think it's a conspiracy of any sort. I just don't think lockdown can be the way.

So I'll be going climbing indoors and out, hopefully in a gym, which I've been doing since they re-opened. But I'll be careful, wash my hands, keep my distance, work from home, wear my mask (pretty horrible when you're doing mileage), and I'll not see my elderly or vulnerable relatives. I think all those things are more effective than shutting everything down.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 21, 2020, 08:31:10 pm

Ib) the scientists are emotionally attached to their original approach

Please please Bradders or anyone else - don’t ever believe ideas like this. That’s an argument straight out of climate change conspiracy theory thinking and just not the case. 

(That’s not having a go at you nick - just the idea)

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on October 21, 2020, 09:10:23 pm
Yes to be fair TT I vastly oversimplified that, although lockdown very much remains the default, which I can only assume is because the scientists are still recommending it, and I'm bewildered by the wholehearted acceptance of it when there are alternatives.

I'm also very sceptical of the idea that scientists aren't susceptible to the sunk cost fallacy just like the rest of us.... not a dig at any scientists on here of course!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on October 21, 2020, 09:26:46 pm
when there are alternatives.

Are there?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on October 21, 2020, 09:32:51 pm
I'm intrigued by what the alternatives are. I thought we'd been doing them all summer but R had stubbornly kept increasing beyond 1.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on October 21, 2020, 10:20:15 pm
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday...

Can someone point me at what defines 'their area'? This might seem pretty straightforward but after the various nuances between Lancs (it was done on a ward by ward basis) since July I genuinely don't understand what that means.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on October 22, 2020, 06:37:39 am
I'm intrigued by what the alternatives are. I thought we'd been doing them all summer but R had stubbornly kept increasing beyond 1.

Well, there's two things there. One is the complete failure of our test and trace system, the other is the focus on R and case numbers, when those really aren't the best metric in my view;

how many people actually suffer a serious / life-changing / enduring illness, or end up dying from it.

Already there's evidence coming out that survival rates are dramatically improved compared to the first wave (e.g. if you're aged 50-69 and have to go into intensive care, current 28 day survival rates have improved from 62% to 80%, and early discharge rates have more than doubled - source (https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports))

To try to link this back to climbing given the thread; a high R number in a climbing gym = highly unlikely to result in any serious / etc. illness IF those people who do catch it there make sure not to go and cough on their elders, whereas a high R number in a care home = big trouble.

when there are alternatives.

Are there?

...to full lockdowns, yes! The problem is people seem so completely bought into the lockdown idea that anyone suggesting something different, even by a small degree, is accused (to use Boris' vernacular) of intending to "let the virus rip".

I'm not saying lockdowns don't work. They clearly do in suppressing the virus, but that's all they do, kicking the can down the road. I'm saying there is a better balance to be struck that allows the vast majority of people to continue earning a living etc., and protects the people who need protecting.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on October 22, 2020, 08:12:41 am
Ta. From what I've read 'shall' is still the preferred term of the EC, and hence in all EN standards.

That tallies with my experiences on TC 136 WG 5.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on October 22, 2020, 08:22:55 am
These are genuine questions, not being argumentative, I'm keen to hear of any solutions......

when there are alternatives.

Are there?

...to full lockdowns, yes! The problem is people seem so completely bought into the lockdown idea that anyone suggesting something different, even by a small degree, is accused (to use Boris' vernacular) of intending to "let the virus rip".

Could you say what they are? The Tier system we are using at the moment has been discredited by the CMO and CSO. The Tier 2 style restrictions in Manchester have made no difference, numbers actually increased. So what are you proposing?

I'm not saying lockdowns don't work. They clearly do in suppressing the virus, but that's all they do, kicking the can down the road. I'm saying there is a better balance to be struck that allows the vast majority of people to continue earning a living etc., and protects the people who need protecting.

Is kicking the can down the road not the whole idea? The more deaths/severe illness we can avoid until we get a vaccine is a good thing is it not?

The only thing that seems to have worked, looking at the world in general, is a full lockdown followed by a properly aggressive TT&I regime once numbers are low enough. Our opportunity to do this has passed though, we did the first past, sacrificed a lot and but failed to do the TT&I part, burning through the goodwill of the public and jeopardising the success of adherence to future lockdown/restrictions.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 22, 2020, 08:52:59 am
Maybe this is more for the general CV19 thread - but - whilst local lockdowns have not "reduced" levels of CV19 transmission (with the exception of Luton) - they are probably helping to keep rates of transmission (and thus R) at fairly sensible levels (1.5 instead of 3 as it was back in March) hopefully making the onset of this peak more gradual than the one in March. We'll never know what the curve looked like in the spring peak - but if the present one looks scary that one would have been horrific.

An interesting difference between then and now - is that the March peak played out first in London and then spread north (hospital peaks in Manchester were c.1 month later than London IIRC) and was further sustained through April and May in care homes (via the disastrous release untested patients back to carehomes policy - amongst other things).

This time around - its switched - with geographically the North getting it first - before it will ultimately sweep down to London/rest of the country. It will be interesting to see how well it is kept out of other areas - in the spring wave - it was everywhere but we didnt know about it. So there were hotspots in places like Barrow - and even the small village Nr Ullswater where we have connections (30+ cases) - and in many other spots too. I suspect this time around, now we can test more - and people are much more aware of the risks and preventative measures that we won't get so many outler outbreaks in odd/unusual places.

My money is still on a full lockdown (maybe with some school - primary - being open) in mid Nov lasting until after new year. The cat is well and truly out of the bag and TTI is playing a big catch up game again...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on October 22, 2020, 08:59:09 am

Can someone point me at what defines 'their area'? This might seem pretty straightforward but after the various nuances between Lancs (it was done on a ward by ward basis) since July I genuinely don't understand what that means.

I think this has the borough boundaries so you can check the areas to a decent level https://covid19.esriuk.com/datasets/esriukcontent::district-borough-unitary-1?geometry=-1.740%2C53.435%2C-1.054%2C53.815
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 22, 2020, 09:11:24 am
It’s not a good look for the govt when one of the police chiefs says he doesn’t fully understand it on the front of today’s Mail or Express...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on October 22, 2020, 10:16:17 am
My money is still on a full lockdown (maybe with some school - primary - being open) in mid Nov lasting until after new year. The cat is well and truly out of the bag and TTI is playing a big catch up game again...

How will Boris manage that without looking like he's giving in to the Labour position? Remember, politics is more important than public health.....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on October 22, 2020, 02:44:00 pm
Must is not used because of ambiguity as to whether it refers to a requirement of the standard or external constraints.


Ah that's the knowledge I was after, thanks!

I was referring to public-facing usage/contractual drafting, and UK legislation where "shall" has fallen out of favour. I didn't know that about engineering standards. The current parliamentary counsel drafting guidelines recommend that "shall" is not used unless there is a legacy reason for it, so you don't see it much in UK legislation any more. Interesting that the engineering standards take the opposite view.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 22, 2020, 02:45:50 pm
My money is still on a full lockdown (maybe with some school - primary - being open) in mid Nov lasting until after new year. The cat is well and truly out of the bag and TTI is playing a big catch up game again...

How will Boris manage that without looking like he's giving in to the Labour position? Remember, politics is more important than public health.....

At the point when the hospitals are overflowing... and starting to make decisions about who its most worth trying to save...

Manc Nightingale opened this afternoon I heard.

Look (not you nick - but in general) I really hope it doesnt come to the above - but it really does start feeling like March all over again.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on October 22, 2020, 04:00:23 pm
I'm intrigued by what the alternatives are. I thought we'd been doing them all summer but R had stubbornly kept increasing beyond 1.

Well, there's two things there. One is the complete failure of our test and trace system, the other is the focus on R and case numbers, when those really aren't the best metric in my view;

how many people actually suffer a serious / life-changing / enduring illness, or end up dying from it.

Already there's evidence coming out that survival rates are dramatically improved compared to the first wave (e.g. if you're aged 50-69 and have to go into intensive care, current 28 day survival rates have improved from 62% to 80%, and early discharge rates have more than doubled - source (https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports))

To try to link this back to climbing given the thread; a high R number in a climbing gym = highly unlikely to result in any serious / etc. illness IF those people who do catch it there make sure not to go and cough on their elders, whereas a high R number in a care home = big trouble.

when there are alternatives.

Are there?

...to full lockdowns, yes! The problem is people seem so completely bought into the lockdown idea that anyone suggesting something different, even by a small degree, is accused (to use Boris' vernacular) of intending to "let the virus rip".

I'm not saying lockdowns don't work. They clearly do in suppressing the virus, but that's all they do, kicking the can down the road. I'm saying there is a better balance to be struck that allows the vast majority of people to continue earning a living etc., and protects the people who need protecting.


I can see the thinking there, and the idea that the vulnerable can be shielded while everyone else cracks on is appealing to those of us who could take advantage of a more liberal lifestyle: but. It starts to fall apart when you consider the practicality of it across the broader population.

Consider that:

Lots of the people who need shielding in some way are not the elderly who were staying at home doing jigsaws anyway. I can think of loads of people in their 20s and 30s who have health conditions that make them vulnerable. The world is a scary place to them - more so if they have to be confined to quarters because the disease is prevalent in their area.

Segregating these people is not entirely practical. They can't be sealed away semi-permanently from the rest of society because they have basic needs for food, exercise, social contact etc.

Inter-generational contact for my family is almost entirely social, but for huge numbers of families it is much more essential than that as grandparents will provide childcare which, if paid for privately (i.e. sending the children to nursery or a childminder), would make the work not economically viable. It costs about £50 to send one child under the age of three to nursery for the day. Even if the children are in school, many parents will rely on grandparents to look after the children between school closing and the parents coming home from work. The worst off in society rely on this most (they can't afford after-school clubs) and are the least able to dodge childcare needs (they work in jobs with less flexible working patterns).

Lots of houses in lower-income areas are inter-generational.

Etc


Chris Witty addressed this issue directly when the tighter restrictions first started to come in recently. He made the point that an increase in cases in younger people was the canary in the mine for increased cases and hospital admissions in the elderly because the young inevitably acted as a vector between the bars/clubs/gyms/schools/climbing walls and their elderly/more vulnerable relatives.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on October 23, 2020, 09:51:21 am
Sorry for the delay replying (I was trying to think of some alternatives  :lol:).

Yes age-based shielding is the major measure I was thinking of, but all of the other bits and pieces (hand washing, mask wearing, distancing, etc.) are part of the puzzle and should help. Again I think the problem here is the implementation of those measures; I mean as an example why on earth did all university education not move online for this year?!

It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.

I was completely supportive of the original lockdown, and I was amazed by the number of people who said they'd still gone climbing during the lockdown, after it lifted. But where I'm coming to now is a concern that lockdowns are a completely blunt instrument that suppress the virus at the expense of literally everything else, and I'm not convinced it's worth that sacrifice when, for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 23, 2020, 10:17:01 am
Sorry for the delay replying (I was trying to think of some alternatives  :lol:).

Yes age-based shielding is the major measure I was thinking of, but all of the other bits and pieces (hand washing, mask wearing, distancing, etc.) are part of the puzzle and should help. Again I think the problem here is the implementation of those measures; I mean as an example why on earth did all university education not move online for this year?!

It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.

I was completely supportive of the original lockdown, and I was amazed by the number of people who said they'd still gone climbing during the lockdown, after it lifted. But where I'm coming to now is a concern that lockdowns are a completely blunt instrument that suppress the virus at the expense of literally everything else, and I'm not convinced it's worth that sacrifice when, for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.

Did you hear Hancock saying yesterday that 5-10% of all those infected (whether asymptomatic or not - and irrespective of age and severity of initial illness) were experiencing a form on long-covid.

I think there may be some real long term implications of this for our health - and the NHS/spending for years to come if we let it 'rip'...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 23, 2020, 10:19:11 am
No sugar, Sherlock.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 23, 2020, 10:22:23 am
No sugar, Sherlock.

Yes - my last sentence was typed without much thought! (mid zoom)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fultonius on October 23, 2020, 10:23:23 am
Sorry for the delay replying (I was trying to think of some alternatives  :lol:).

Yes age-based shielding is the major measure I was thinking of, but all of the other bits and pieces (hand washing, mask wearing, distancing, etc.) are part of the puzzle and should help. Again I think the problem here is the implementation of those measures; I mean as an example why on earth did all university education not move online for this year?!

It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.

I was completely supportive of the original lockdown, and I was amazed by the number of people who said they'd still gone climbing during the lockdown, after it lifted. But where I'm coming to now is a concern that lockdowns are a completely blunt instrument that suppress the virus at the expense of literally everything else, and I'm not convinced it's worth that sacrifice when, for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.

Did you hear Hancock saying yesterday that 5-10% of all those infected (whether asymptomatic or not - and irrespective of age and severity of initial illness) were experiencing a form on long-covid.

I think there may be some real long term implications of this for our health - and the NHS/spending for years to come if we let it 'rip'...

I know I've had a "scare" and am now probably on the other side of the fence to what I was before (generally compliant, but a bit blasé about the risks as I'm young/fit/healthy).

I think it's too soon to tell whether "deaths" are actually the biggest negative effect of this. Letting it rip might mean a large percentage of the population gets short/medium/long term effects that we do not yet know if they cause irreversible damage.

Shielding only affects those who have underlying health issues.

That said....I can't help but feel this is a bit of nature rebalancing against the scourge of the earth/rampant capitalism/overpopulation etc.....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: slab_happy on October 23, 2020, 10:23:48 am
Also, the most vulnerable people (and most likely to get severely ill and to die) of all are fragile elderly and/or disabled people who need some kind of care, whether that's in care homes or with carers visiting their homes (or informally, living with relatives who provide some support).

You can't "shield" them by isolating them in a bubble unless you can also isolate everyone providing them with care, everyone living with them, etc..

And care homes are still, even now, reporting that they can't reliably get adequate supplies of PPE or frequent enough testing of residents and staff.

Lots of the people who need shielding in some way are not the elderly who were staying at home doing jigsaws anyway. I can think of loads of people in their 20s and 30s who have health conditions that make them vulnerable. The world is a scary place to them - more so if they have to be confined to quarters because the disease is prevalent in their area.

Also, for example, think about the person in their 40s who's got diabetes and is overweight, or who's immunosuppressed because of treatment for Crohn's disease or whatever, and has a kid in school and works at a job which can't be done from home.

They're at high risk, but if you want to put them in a bubble, you have to provide enough money to support them and their family, you have to isolate their kid too and provide some kind of home access to schooling (and deal with the psychological consequences of even more isolation for the kid).

People often seem to talk as if the "vulnerable" who need shielding are all elderly retired couples who might have some health conditions but are basically independent and can look after themselves, don't share accommodation with anyone else, and can keep each other company and catch up with friends and relatives via Zoom.

That pretty much describes my parents (thank fuck) and they've been able to isolate themselves and only go somewhat stir-crazy (they were not staying at home and doing jigsaws prior to this; they're still not doing jigsaws and I'd be alarmed they'd had a personality transplant if they were ...).

But that description does not fit a huge number of vulnerable people who are at high risk from the virus.

There's an assumption that shielding is just "tell the pensioners to stay indoors for a bit" and it's really not that simple.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 23, 2020, 10:32:30 am
Its the total sinker for the herd immunity argument - in our interlinked society you simply can't isolate a significant (millions) percentage of the population that are spread all around the company.

Sure - you could round up ALL the old people. All the vulnerable people, all the people with pre existings etc... (5 million? 10 million?) and put them on an island. Then only let food water/ medicine etc.. over to them....

Then 'let it rip' amongst the less vulnerable section - and they get 'herd immunity'. Problem is, when you let the prisoners back into the rest of the country - COVID has to be COMPLETELY gone in the herd... (and that would take many many many years - it would keep on rumbling along in a very small level for ages) otherwise just a handful of covid carriers would then find all those fresh non-immune people to run rife through. Unless you vaccinate them - but this would mean taking a gamble on effectively imprisoning a chunk of the population for an unknown period of time until a vaccine of unknown efficacy was developed...

err.. nope, don't think so.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 23, 2020, 10:38:57 am
No sugar, Sherlock.

Yes - my last sentence was typed without much thought! (mid zoom)

I am not having a go TT, in total agreement.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on October 23, 2020, 10:39:31 am
It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.

A nice thought but unfortunately unworkable no matter how much money you throw at it. Current childcare provision is not sized to cope with the additional strains that all those extra kids would place upon it. There isn't the built infrastructure, nor the staff. The lead time to provide the solution is large.

As pointed out on another thread, the reason that respiratory illnesses are in line with other years is because the people who would normally be contracting and suffering with those illnesses are being more careful - but cases are still rising.

The hand washing, mask wearing, distancing stuff is all very well but it clearly isn't sufficient because cases are going up - even in Tier 2 areas. It slows it down, but exponential growth has a nasty habit of getting serious, even if the lead in time is a bit longer.

To be totally blunt, you need to consider that not everybody in the country enjoys a family life that is as simple as a self-contained unit of healthy individuals who can earn a good wage from their study in Pudsey.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on October 23, 2020, 10:42:59 am
...for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.
This is only true if the NHS is not overwhelmed.
Even with T3 measures in place it looks likely the NHS is on course to get overwhelmed in many areas in the not too distant future.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on October 23, 2020, 10:43:28 am
Sorry for the delay replying (I was trying to think of some alternatives  :lol:).

Yes age-based shielding is the major measure I was thinking of, but all of the other bits and pieces (hand washing, mask wearing, distancing, etc.) are part of the puzzle and should help. Again I think the problem here is the implementation of those measures; I mean as an example why on earth did all university education not move online for this year?!

It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.

I was completely supportive of the original lockdown, and I was amazed by the number of people who said they'd still gone climbing during the lockdown, after it lifted. But where I'm coming to now is a concern that lockdowns are a completely blunt instrument that suppress the virus at the expense of literally everything else, and I'm not convinced it's worth that sacrifice when, for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.

I know anecdotal reposts are of limited value, but a couple of incidents really brought home the actual intricacies of what seemed sensible to me (increased shielding of the vulnerable, child care etc).

So, just in our little world:

My better half is an estate agent. Lettings.
Small company, four employees, plus a large number of subbies and tradesmen.
They manage a little over 2000 properties.
Boss has cancer.
It’s a stage 4 and, eventually, it’s going to kill him, but it’s slow a progression and he was expected to get another 12-24 months, given the ongoing chemo etc.
His partner, in both senses of the word, is also my partner’s boss. That’s two of the four, previously mentioned employees.
Covid, would almost certainly finish him in days.
So, they’re shielding.
They have two teenage daughters, one who’s just buggered off to uni (can’t come home to visit, can’t go to grandparents, is miserable and lost) and one who has just had her GCSEs buggered up (still all 8s so not truly buggered) but now has to go through a ridiculous “deco” routine each day, on getting home, in a house divided into two and has almost zero physical contact with her parents. She’s 16 ffs.
The loss of two staff members has put the business into very difficult circumstances. Might kill it. The knock on would negatively impact, probably hundreds of people, from staff and contractors to tenants and landlords and their families.


Two of the players on my youngest daughters football team, have lost their parents (they’re 12 and 11 years old) and live with grandparents. Grandma’s quite spry but Grandad has prostate cancer.
There are no other relatives.
They wanted to keep the boys at home and continue home schooling, but they received all the usual threats of fines and prosecution etc. They didn’t have a clue how to actually home school without the actual school supporting them. So they carry on, crossing fingers and hoping.
It’s fucking awful to watch. The spectacle has silenced some vociferous dicks amongst the team parents.
Last Wednesday, we went into isolation, because the assistant coach started showing symptoms. On the Thursday, my girl developed a fever and got pretty poorly. She was tested on Friday and we got a negative result at about 5am on Monday.
The coach was positive. He’s 23 and proper poorly. Scarily poorly. 3rd year at Plymouth Uni but from the bay.
The league have given up (thats the FA junior Premier league, not some local thing). All training and matches suspended in our area. We’re a “medium” risk area.

Ultimately, my point is, the ‘vulnerable” are intricately entwined with everybody else and virtually impossible to single out and separate.
Then, there’s the small matter of not actually knowing who is vulnerable. Granted we know how to identify many who are likely to be so, but there are plenty of “unlucky” people who won’t find out until it’s too late.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: JamieG on October 23, 2020, 10:47:23 am
they were not staying at home and doing jigsaws prior to this; they're still not doing jigsaws and I'd be alarmed they'd had a personality transplant if they were ...

Woah woah woah, this was a civil conversation. Don't be dragging jigsaws into it. I love a good jigsaw! Did a cracking space themed one at the start of lockdown. Highly recommend. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blppldyci-Puzzle-Jigsaw-Puzzles-Planets/dp/B07WZMYSY3
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on October 23, 2020, 10:54:23 am
they were not staying at home and doing jigsaws prior to this; they're still not doing jigsaws and I'd be alarmed they'd had a personality transplant if they were ...

Woah woah woah, this was a civil conversation. Don't be dragging jigsaws into it. I love a good jigsaw! Did a cracking space themed one at the start of lockdown. Highly recommend. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blppldyci-Puzzle-Jigsaw-Puzzles-Planets/dp/B07WZMYSY3

 :lol:

It's brought me so much joy to see just how scientifically inaccurate that jigsaw is! In my adult life I have done one adult jigsaw and it was totally zen. But then I got The Guilt about the number of evenings of my life I'd wasted doing it and resolved never to do one again. And then we had a child and now the house is full of jigsaws - my favourite one for us to do is the one with the dinosaurs.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: slab_happy on October 23, 2020, 10:59:30 am
they were not staying at home and doing jigsaws prior to this; they're still not doing jigsaws and I'd be alarmed they'd had a personality transplant if they were ...

Woah woah woah, this was a civil conversation. Don't be dragging jigsaws into it. I love a good jigsaw! Did a cracking space themed one at the start of lockdown. Highly recommend. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blppldyci-Puzzle-Jigsaw-Puzzles-Planets/dp/B07WZMYSY3

I apologize for any offense caused to the jigsaw-loving community! No insult was intended; they're just not my parents' thing.

(My mum, who is in her mid-70s and has Parkinson's, is occupying herself by taking up boxing training and has a punchbag. We're all very impressed and also scared of her.)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: JamieG on October 23, 2020, 11:14:00 am
Apology accepted.  ;D

Your mum does sound impressive and slightly scary. I think I'll stick to jigsaws.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on October 23, 2020, 11:52:47 am
Jigsaw is clearly fake news. On each of the 6 crewed lunar landings, only two people were ever on the surface of the moon at the same time.  ::)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on October 23, 2020, 12:45:57 pm
Did you hear Hancock saying yesterday that 5-10% of all those infected (whether asymptomatic or not - and irrespective of age and severity of initial illness) were experiencing a form on long-covid.

While I do agree with the general direction of the argument, I think the 5-10% in the above could be a massive overestimate. It was discussed on More or Less a few weeks back and they were saying the 10% comes from people experiencing Covid symptoms after 28 days - possibly not a fair definition of "long Covid". They came up with 1.5-2% as a better estimate.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on October 23, 2020, 01:22:05 pm
Crikey that's a lot of replies. Thanks everyone. It's interesting to test these ideas on here as they're arguments which are being frequently discussed in right wing media.

5-10% of all those infected (whether asymptomatic or not - and irrespective of age and severity of initial illness) were experiencing a form on long-covid.

Asymptomatic people are actually symptomatic are they? Struggling with that one. And isn't it 5-10% after a month, but it actually drops to 1 in 50 very quickly. Which isn't all that surprising for any illness really; it always seems to take longer to recover than you might think.

I'm not saying there aren't long term implications, just trying to interrogate this sort of statement.

A nice thought but unfortunately unworkable no matter how much money you throw at it. Current childcare provision is not sized to cope with the additional strains that all those extra kids would place upon it. There isn't the built infrastructure, nor the staff. The lead time to provide the solution is large.

As pointed out on another thread, the reason that respiratory illnesses are in line with other years is because the people who would normally be contracting and suffering with those illnesses are being more careful - but cases are still rising.

The hand washing, mask wearing, distancing stuff is all very well but it clearly isn't sufficient because cases are going up - even in Tier 2 areas. It slows it down, but exponential growth has a nasty habit of getting serious, even if the lead in time is a bit longer.

To be totally blunt, you need to consider that not everybody in the country enjoys a family life that is as simple as a self-contained unit of healthy individuals who can earn a good wage from their study in Pudsey.

Firstly, ouch, no need to make it personal like that. We all have our problems and crosses to bear.

Childcare - fair points, although I still think there would be a way to manage it e.g. via schools, although accept it wouldn't provide a universal solution; I was thinking more to help those who really need it.

Respiratory illness levels - yes agreed and this is where I completely agree that care is needed, I'm not saying we should all just go back to the way it was. The point is surely that if they're at the same level as previous years, and they stay that way, then why do things need to get any stricter as per Wales and Labour calls for the UK as a whole, when that level was previously acceptable?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on October 23, 2020, 01:47:27 pm
The point is surely that if they're at the same level as previous years, and they stay that way, then why do things need to get any stricter

If R>1 then you'd expect that "sameness" to be temporary, i.e. it wouldn't stay that way as case numbers grow
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on October 23, 2020, 02:02:19 pm
Firstly, ouch, no need to make it personal like that. We all have our problems and crosses to bear.

Soz, it was a bit blunt but not meant to be nasty.

and they stay that way

As Barrows said, this is the thing that isn't happening.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on October 23, 2020, 10:10:14 pm
Okay see what you mean. Is there any data yet showing whether respiratory illness levels are rising quicker than previous years? Assuming that they always rise during the winter months.

Soz, it was a bit blunt but not meant to be nasty.

No worries, just don't like the implication that making this kind of argument means you occupy some kind of ivory tower, looking down uncaringly on the peasants leading their meaningless lives, and haven't thought about how these things might affect people.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Sidehaas on October 24, 2020, 08:35:21 am
Respiratory illness levels - yes agreed and this is where I completely agree that care is needed, I'm not saying we should all just go back to the way it was. The point is surely that if they're at the same level as previous years, and they stay that way, then why do things need to get any stricter as per Wales and Labour calls for the UK as a whole, when that level was previously acceptable?

I haven't seen data for the UK as a whole but in the local hotspots respiratory illness levels are definitely not now at normal levels.
In Liverpool region (I live in Sefton) the virus has been spreading fast in the community and was rising exponentially from end of August until a couple of weeks ago when it seems to have flattened (dropped in the younger age groups). This all happened before universities came back and infections are already more spread across the age range than in other hotspot areas like Sheffield or Nottingham that were caused by the students returning to University. As a result we are probably a few weeks ahead here in epidemic terms for the older age groups. What is clear is that Covid hospitalisations here are high - already higher than the peak in spring - and will continue to rise fast for a bit longer, then continue to rise at a slower rate depending on what happens to case rates as a result of Tier 3. The situation here is undoubtedly more severe than in spring and if we get away with fewer deaths it will only be because we treat people better and avoid it spreading to old/sick people in care homes or in hospitals themselves, which is what happened back then. This area is absolutely concrete evidence that the virus will still spread fast, still put people in hospital and is not being contained in younger age groups even with people of older ages being abundantly cautious. I will be blunt - I am firmly of the belief that if this was London there would already be a national lockdown 2. Do I want that? Unsure - if case rates in younger people in the worst hit areas to continue to drop and that trend can subsequently be replicated elsewhere then we might get away with the current approach for a few months. If not, probably a circuit breaker and then survey the outcome a couple of weeks after.

Ps. Having said all of that, I'm still ignoring travel guidance to go solo bouldering!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AJM on October 24, 2020, 02:53:23 pm
the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy

What age do you mean, exactly?

Technically, life expectancy is "life expectancy from age X". The total (life expectancy+X) goes up the older you get.

Just make sure you're looking at one which is relevant for the comparison (given this is not a disease which significantly affects children, I would suggest comparing against a life expectancy from 65 rather than birth).

[aside: It's why the oft-quoted statements like "life expectancy for cavemen was 30" (or, as Google told me, that it was 39 in 1765) don't really tell you very much about the prevelance of middle aged or old people in those societies, because they're so skewed by horrific infant mortality]
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tim palmer on October 24, 2020, 03:29:04 pm
Is there any data yet showing whether respiratory illness levels are rising quicker than previous years? Assuming that they always rise during the winter months.

Other than itu being completely full with people requiring ventilation for respiratory failure? 

Everyone medically qualified being asked to chip in on respiratory wards because they are full? 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on October 24, 2020, 03:53:06 pm
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on October 24, 2020, 04:16:58 pm
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.

This site is useful, in as much as it updates it’s projections regularly and corrects assumed to actual. Most interesting is that it shows bed availability.

 https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on October 24, 2020, 06:12:26 pm
I keep trying to avoid commenting on this page as i find it so depressing and negative, something I am not, but the last graphs got my back up again.

Over 100k deaths in the next three months. More than Double what we have had already ?????

Did this same group do a forecast back in March and is it possible to see it. Guess they were one of those saying 250k would die.

Finally we need a function that allows you to block out topics on here, I just want to look at climbing stuff from now on.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on October 24, 2020, 06:19:12 pm
Dude! That’s if restrictions were lifted entirely!
And that’s nothing new.

Plus, nobody’s twisting your arm.

Edit:
Hang on,I see you’re talking about total, not extra.

We’re already at over 40k.
The projections don’t yet show the effects of new mitigation measures, they’re simply reflecting the trend at time of publishing. You have to follow it as it corrects to new data, not treat it as a crystal ball.

Nevertheless, given that we are already at 40-50k + depending on which figure you use, all things being equal, the 100k by early 2021 is entirely possible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on October 24, 2020, 06:32:03 pm
150k is there figure so about 30k a month. Hence why I think pessimistic bull shit and want to know what the same people said it would be back in March. There were some huge figures thrown about by the doom merchants on here.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on October 24, 2020, 06:48:33 pm
150k is there figure so about 30k a month. Hence why I think pessimistic bull shit and want to know what the same people said it would be back in March. There were some huge figures thrown about by the doom merchants on here.

You’re not getting it.

The projection is based on the current trend (that is historically over the last x days) and assumes nothing changes, that the trend continues.

However, in reality, behaviour will change, restrictions imposed etc etc.
In 7 days, the projection will be  quite different (hopefully).

If you’d seen the graph back in  late march, say in the first seven days of lockdown, it would have risen steeply to the maximum predicted death toll, because that’s what an unmitigated pandemic would do.

Perhaps focus on the resource  use graph, which is much clearer on the error margin front.
Then mentally apply similar error margins to the other graphs.

There’s little attempt to anticipate changes in behaviour, either mandated or organic in the prediction.
That is to say, some behaviour will be modified by government, some (organic) by people’s personal responses and, well, fear.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 24, 2020, 06:51:37 pm
Trying not to be doom mongery gav :) but I I think it’s getting towards c.45k deaths within 28 days of a test and the other estimates (excess morbidity etc..) put the likely Cv total at 60k or more.

I think the 200k forecast was without any measures - modelled back in March. But might be wrong.
Though, With 45-60k dead now - and 150-200 a day at the moment that puts us on course to have an extra 10k+ by new year even if the death rate per day doesnt grow much (they will as they lag case numbers by 4 weeks).

So 200k - was at the pessimistic end of things but not bonkers. We could be getting closer 100k if things don’t go well.

(Edit - what OMM said!)

What will help is that we know a lot more about how to treat it (eg pcap instead of ventilators) and have new drugs (eg steroids) that can genuinely drop the mortality rate. Which is good 👍👍
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on October 24, 2020, 07:33:17 pm
If I ever comment on here again about this I give you all the right to shoot me.

I’m out of here you have now all pushed me over the edge.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on October 24, 2020, 10:13:40 pm
Sorry Gav - don’t go - we need reeling in!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 25, 2020, 08:01:31 am
Sorry, but GME is talking shite anyway. Being pessimistic has nothing to do with it. Matt explained how that figure was arrived at and how it was never going to look like that in reality because behaviour would change. I suspect, like all of us, he is fed up of the whole situation and wishes it would just piss off, but saying every figure or projection that looks bad is "negative" or "pessimistic" sounds like a knock off version of a brexit ad saying "don't talk Britain down."
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 25, 2020, 08:38:07 am
Is there a more civil way to make that point Spidermonkey?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on October 25, 2020, 09:21:38 am
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.

This site is useful, in as much as it updates it’s projections regularly and corrects assumed to actual. Most interesting is that it shows bed availability.

 https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend)

An interesting site (especially mobile phone data showing average 'social distancing' trends) but I'm not sure how they arrived at their number of deaths. The UK for example isn't the official number nor the ONS number. Excess deaths are likely the best indicator of the overall effects of covid and the FT page shows the UK at 67500 excess deaths and the US at 270,000 and still growing.

https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938

The way deaths are counted is important and the UK numbers capture fewer actual covid deaths than most western nations (Belgium seems to be the most honest). The Kings fund have a good article on UK counting but the last update was August

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deaths-covid-19
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on October 25, 2020, 09:22:26 am
Is there a more civil way to make that point Spidermonkey?

And also GME does have a point in some ways, the use of simplistic projections based on short term trends to produce 'worst case' outcomes can seem to sometimes to be close to scaremongering and I'm not sure that it helps the argument.

e.g. Covid-19: UK could face 50,000 cases a day by October without action - Vallance (21st September), https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54234084

By 16th October 7 day rolling cases were 16k a day, 21k a day as of 24th - obviously bad but still a way off 50k.   Aware that Vallence did say 'without further action' but it was the 50k that got the headlines and he knew that would be the case.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on October 25, 2020, 09:57:27 am
Maybe the population needs a bit of scaremongering given hospitals in the worst hit areas are already close to capacity and we already have a couple of weeks growth built into the older demographics. I do wonder how much more official scaremongering we would be facing if those hospitals were in London instead of in places like Liverpool.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on October 25, 2020, 10:32:39 am
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.

This site is useful, in as much as it updates it’s projections regularly and corrects assumed to actual. Most interesting is that it shows bed availability.

 https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend)

An interesting site (especially mobile phone data showing average 'social distancing' trends) but I'm not sure how they arrived at their number of deaths. The UK for example isn't the official number nor the ONS number. Excess deaths are likely the best indicator of the overall effects of covid and the FT page shows the UK at 67500 excess deaths and the US at 270,000 and still growing.

https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938

The way deaths are counted is important and the UK numbers capture fewer actual covid deaths than most western nations (Belgium seems to be the most honest). The Kings fund have a good article on UK counting but the last update was August

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deaths-covid-19

“Where does IHME obtain its data?

These forecasts include data from local and national governments, hospital networks and associations, the World Health Organization, third-party aggregators, and a range of other sources. We use the Johns Hopkins University (JHU) data repository on Github to collate daily COVID-19 cases and deaths. We supplement this dataset as needed to improve the accuracy of our projections. For example, we use data from government websites for Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Pakistan, South Africa, Spain, United Kingdom, and the US states of Indiana, Illinois, Maryland, and Washington. For New York, we use data from the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene and the New York Times GitHub repository. We obtain subnational data from government websites. Our models are updated regularly, as new data are available, to provide the most up-to-date planning tool possible.

For testing data, our primary sources for US testing data are compiled by the COVID Tracking Project. For other locations, we rely primarily on data reported by Our World in Data. However, for Brazil, Canada, Cyprus, Dominican Republic, Honduras, India, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Moldova, Pakistan, Philippines, Russia, South Africa, and Spain, we use government data.

We obtain hospital resource data from sources such as government websites, hospital associations, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, WHO, and published studies. For population density, we use gridded population count estimates for 2020 at the 1 x 1 kilometer (km) level from WorldPop. For masks, we use data from Premise for the US, and from the Facebook Global symptom survey. (This research is based on survey results from University of Maryland Social Data Science Center.) For mobility, we use anonymized, aggregated data from Google, Facebook, and Apple. For the US, we use mobility data from Descartes and SafeGraph.

Our data on mask use come from Premise, Facebook Global Symptom Survey (research based on survey results from the University of Maryland Social Data Science Center), Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF), and YouGov COVID-19 Behaviour Tracker survey.

For a complete list of our supporting organizations, please see our Acknowledgements page.“
 http://www.healthdata.org/covid/faqs (http://www.healthdata.org/covid/faqs)

Ian, the variation in forecast between the worst case “go back to normal living” scenario, our actual “keep some mandates, wear masks sometimes, locally increase mandates (etc)” and their “full mandate, universal mask use” is immense.
Vallence was pointing out the possibility of the first scenario, if no action was taken.
The reality being, of course, that it’s not just government mandates that influence it, it’s peoples attitudes and I’m sure he would argue that this was his primary  goal; reminding people to be careful.
I think the government’s actions and mandates, so far, have been enough, to keep enough, on their toes enough, to control the spread just enough, to skim along the catastrophe curve...
They could have done more, but not a lot less.
In a couple of weeks, we might find out they haven’t actually done as much as they needed to.

Now, the last paragraph was meant to be all over the place, because I’m trying to convey how fuzzy and inclusive the modelling has to be.

Personally, I think the government have been slightly too cautious, but not as bad as many suggest (leaving aside the corruption aspects etc, merely looking at mitigation policies). I think a huge issue, is actually a personality fault, rather than a policy fault:

Johnson is equivocal in all things, all the time.

He never conveys conviction or decisiveness  in his oration and his audience only ever hear what they want to hear.



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on October 25, 2020, 10:51:04 am
Is there a more civil way to make that point Spidermonkey?

Yes, almost certainly. It wasn't meant to be uncivil but I was getting a bit frustrated with the word "pessimistic." pessimism and optimism are really bad words to use in this scenario, implying that if we all stick our fingers in our ears and should loud enough the problem will just disappear.

It didn't feel like there was an awful lot of engagement with the argument being put forward and an overreliance on "I don't like this projection so you're all scaremongering." I actually agree with IanPs analysis entirely, because clearly the projections are simplistic and headline grabbing. However Gav didn't make that point, he just ranted about "doom merchants". But I do take your point about civility, so my apologies if it came across as me being a wanker.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 25, 2020, 12:17:11 pm
I wouldn’t have gone that far Spidermonkey 😀. Just thought the Brexit thing was a bit harsh, that’s all.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on October 25, 2020, 12:35:11 pm
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.

This site is useful, in as much as it updates it’s projections regularly and corrects assumed to actual. Most interesting is that it shows bed availability.

 https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend)

An interesting site (especially mobile phone data showing average 'social distancing' trends) but I'm not sure how they arrived at their number of deaths. The UK for example isn't the official number nor the ONS number. Excess deaths are likely the best indicator of the overall effects of covid and the FT page shows the UK at 67500 excess deaths and the US at 270,000 and still growing.

https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938

The way deaths are counted is important and the UK numbers capture fewer actual covid deaths than most western nations (Belgium seems to be the most honest). The Kings fund have a good article on UK counting but the last update was August

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deaths-covid-19

Not wanting to restart an old discussion ;) , but the figures in the FT don't show that the UK capture fewer covid deaths that other western countries.

Comparing deaths on worldometers to excess deaths on FT (accepting that dates aren't in sync but since majority of deaths were earlier in pandemic so hopefully still gives a general idea of numbers) shows UK sits in the middle when compared to other European countries.

Country   FT figures   Gov figures   Gov %
Portugal   7300      2297      31%
Germany   17800      10111      57%
Spain   57600      34752      60%
Netherlands 11300      7019      62%
UK      67500      44745      66%
Italy      50500      37210      74%
Belgium   10700      10737      100%
Sweden   5700      5933      104%
France   26600      34645      130%

You're right about Belgium, France is strange, seemingly having less excess deaths than recorded Covid deaths.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on October 25, 2020, 01:54:12 pm

Not wanting to restart an old discussion ;) , but the figures in the FT don't show that the UK capture fewer covid deaths that other western countries.

Comparing deaths on worldometers to excess deaths on FT (accepting that dates aren't in sync but since majority of deaths were earlier in pandemic so hopefully still gives a general idea of numbers) shows UK sits in the middle when compared to other European countries.

Country   FT figures   Gov figures   Gov %
Portugal   7300      2297      31%
Germany   17800      10111      57%
Spain   57600      34752      60%
Netherlands 11300      7019      62%
UK      67500      44745      66%
Italy      50500      37210      74%
Belgium   10700      10737      100%
Sweden   5700      5933      104%
France   26600      34645      130%

You're right about Belgium, France is strange, seemingly having less excess deaths than recorded Covid deaths.

They do. You need to compare excess deaths on the FT initial peak with official deaths at the date at the end of that FT peak for a fair comparison of how well the state system recorded covid related deaths (ie look at both sets of data in early June). Back then Belgium was the closest to picking up most covid deaths and Britains 'official' numbers bottom of the countries with a big excess death peak (even though UK government numbers were not time limited to 28 days then). The 'strange' data is due to people who died of covid over the summer and early autumn when excess deaths are not discernable from the normal yearly average; showing that comparing to excess deaths is only practical at times when there are excess deaths.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on October 25, 2020, 04:04:16 pm
I knew I shouldn't get involved  :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on October 26, 2020, 06:48:33 am
I knew I shouldn't get involved  :lol:

I'm glad you did it as it illustrates some interesting points (and you were right about Portugal as I hadn't looked at it in my earlier comparisons, as I thought peak excess deaths there were too low compared to the baseline range). I looked at peak deaths below as the excess deaths are least affected by uncertainty in the baseline.

In the UK peak excess deaths were 12,900 a week (John Hopkins...adding data for separate country entries in mid April and subtracting the average baseline, on a baseline data range of 2900) and official UK government weekly deaths (worldometer) were 6600, so only 51% of that. In our official covid numbers we only pick up half the excess deaths (+/-11% on accuracy on excess deaths from the baseline range). The ONS peak weekly death data was 67% of the peak excess deaths (8760 from the Kings Fund link).

The comparative percentage for Portugal of official reported deaths compared  to excess deaths is 46% (it is lower but the actual value might be higher given the difference is well within the baseline range of +/-29%) but that is on peak weekly excess deaths of 470 (with a baseline range of 280 from yearly changes in the baseline data....John Hopkins).  For reference the population of Portugal is about 15% of that of the UK, so our peak weekly excess deaths were about 4 times larger per capita.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Tony S on October 26, 2020, 12:25:48 pm
It should be noted that excess deaths and COVID19 deaths are very different metrics.

Death for a single cause stats suffer from "competing risk events": we will all die only once and we can only be classified as having died due to one underlying cause (slight simplification).

Excess deaths are about all cause mortality, total deaths that would not "normally" have occurred had COVID19 and its impacts *not* [edit] been around (e.g. acute deaths due to sub-normal medical care/availability, longterm deaths due to disruption to medical services).

Bear in mind, some deaths were probably "avoided" during COVID, e.g. road traffic deaths would have been lower during the (March/April) lockdown.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on October 26, 2020, 02:45:01 pm
It should be noted that excess deaths and COVID19 deaths are very different metrics.

Death for a single cause stats suffer from "competing risk events": we will all die only once and we can only be classified as having died due to one underlying cause (slight simplification).

Excess deaths are about all cause mortality, total deaths that would not "normally" have occurred had COVID19 and its impacts *not* [edit] been around (e.g. acute deaths due to sub-normal medical care/availability, longterm deaths due to disruption to medical services).

Bear in mind, some deaths were probably "avoided" during COVID, e.g. road traffic deaths would have been lower during the (March/April) lockdown.

Can't disagree with much of that, obviously excess deaths is measuring something other than specific covid deaths but it has been used as proxy for the impact of covid on overall mortality.  In particular the discrepency between excess deaths officially reported by many countries (including the UK) and the estimates of excess deaths point to a lack of accuracy on those figures - as per my rough ready analysis above it would seem that many western European countries have a pretty significant difference between the 2 numbers.

In the UKs case we actually have better numbers for Covid deaths (though still probably undercounting) from the ONS based on death certificates - as of w/e 9/10 this had approx 58,000 deaths as compared to 43.500 deaths on the daily figures produced by the government. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 05, 2020, 06:38:34 pm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/police-patrolling-english-county-borders-weekend-prevent-non/

Essence of the report; North Yorkshire Police will apparently be patrolling the borders to discourage non-essential travel into the county.

Obviously rules have changed yet again this week, but the way I read them neither travelling for any form of exercise nor leaving a tier 3 area to go to a tier 2 area (e.g. Leeds to Crookrise) are currently illegal. Anyone's guess how this might actually play out if you were pulled over. I imagine they'll be concentrating on larger groups as opposed to lone drivers?

Use of ANPR is mentioned but I don't see how that will work since they can't know why people are on the road? Perhaps just a case of using it to target cars not registered locally for stops?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 05, 2020, 06:43:25 pm
 Just a PR exercise from the coppers I think. From memory North Yorks police were the most heavy handed force in the country in terms of handing out fines during lockdown. A cynic might suggest the chief there is trying to make a point of how tough they are to our esteemed home secretary!

I don't think it changes a lot from a climbing perspective for the reasons you say. You aren't doing anything illegal so I'd not take too much notice.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 05, 2020, 06:50:14 pm
Yeah, I've heard a few times before all this that NY Police were pretty militant anyway, so imagine that's not changed.

Checked the rules again just to be sure:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-3-very-high-alert
Quote
You can continue to do unlimited exercise alone, or in an outdoor public place in groups up to 6.

Interestingly, exercise is no longer listed as one of the reasons you can travel / leave a tier 3 area:

Quote

Travelling into or out of a Tier 3 alert level area

Avoid travelling outside your area, including for overnight stays, other than where necessary, such as:

for work
for education
to access voluntary, charitable or youth services
because of caring responsibilities
for moving home
to visit your support bubble
for a medical appointment or treatment

 :-\
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on December 05, 2020, 06:55:01 pm
I think what they are trying to discourage is people in Tier 3 areas travelling in to North Yorkshire to go to the pub or for a meal out.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on December 05, 2020, 06:57:25 pm
Reading that part of the link in full, it seems that travel is a "should" not a "must", therefore is frowned upon, but what they gonna do...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 05, 2020, 07:16:51 pm
Yeah think you're right, just really can't be arsed having an argument. Was planning to travel through NY rather than stop in it tomorrow anyway but think I'll just go round em.  :wank:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on December 05, 2020, 07:52:23 pm
So my grandson who lives in NY has been off school because someone connected to a class mate tested positive. So he came to stay with us in Tier 3 because my daughter had to work( Building Society) son in law in army is having to stay in camp because he’s no transport to get too and from camp to home. We will have him again next week then on Friday I will take him back to NY pick daughter up and drive back in to Tier 3 so she can pick up husbands new car. Then she will drive back to another bit of NY to pick him up, then go home.
Are we breaking many rules. :-\
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on December 05, 2020, 08:17:21 pm
So my grandson who lives in NY has been off school because someone connected to a class mate tested positive. So he came to stay with us in Tier 3 because my daughter had to work( Building Society) son in law in army is having to stay in camp because he’s no transport to get too and from camp to home. We will have him again next week then on Friday I will take him back to NY via Barnard Castle pick daughter up and drive back via Durham in to Tier 3 so she can pick up husbands new car. Then she will drive back via Barnard Castle to another bit of NY to pick him up, then go home via Durham.
Are we breaking many rules. :-\
No, I think you're fine  :smirk:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on December 05, 2020, 08:21:01 pm
Will I be ok to take him for his swimming lesson on the way back from the crag.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 06, 2020, 08:51:42 pm
Provided he swims in a mask I don't see a problem  :shrug:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on December 06, 2020, 08:57:28 pm
6 year olds don’t need to wear masks.
On slight tangent it appears that there is a house in Otley that’s in Tier 3 but the gardens in Tier 2.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 06, 2020, 09:49:35 pm
Where is the board??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on December 06, 2020, 10:47:44 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 09, 2020, 08:13:56 am
Yup >>  https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i

Anyway the IG post has nudged me to post.

Even before Covid I used to ask people if they minded if I joined them under a block/problem... just seemed polite. Now it’s more important than manners - but only twice in the last 6 months has someone asked me if it’s ok to join.

That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).

Please ask - and maybe when you ask also say “if not it’s no problem I fully understand” etc...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 09, 2020, 08:28:48 am
Yup >>  https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i

Anyway the IG post has nudged me to post.

Even before Covid I used to ask people if they minded if I joined them under a block/problem... just seemed polite. Now it’s more important than manners - but only twice in the last 6 months has someone asked me if it’s ok to join.

That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).

Please ask - and maybe when you ask also say “if not it’s no problem I fully understand” etc...

There's a few different issues here aren't there. On politeness grounds, clearly turning up playing music/dropping litter isn't in and that's the biggest issue. On covid grounds, like you I would always ask out of politeness but tbh (maybe I'm part of the problem!) I would be pretty taken aback if someone genuinely said they weren't ok with me joining. Its a bit like the sport climbing/draws thing, one doesn't get to reserve a boulder in perpetuity by putting pads under it. Perfectly possible to safely distance while under the same bit of rock and that should be the default setting. That said I agree with Dave's comment on the IG in large part.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 09, 2020, 08:44:28 am
I think different people have different perceptions about what safe distance means - and I’d like people to be appreciative of that. And if someone is uncomfortable having lots of people around then that’s just as valid a feeling as someone who isn’t.

Though I think the metaphor to reserving a sport route doesn’t quite hold for bouldering. The nature of working a problem to a route  had a very different rhythm (from what I remember about climbing with a rope!)

There’s quite a few problems I’ve worked where the landing / patio really only works for one or two people - and of someone is there and I want to go on it I’ll go somewhere else for a while. Or maybe ask if they can text me when they are off.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 09, 2020, 08:55:46 am
I think different people have different perceptions about what safe distance means - and I’d like people to be appreciative of that. And if someone is uncomfortable having lots of people around then that’s just as valid a feeling as someone who isn’t.

Though I think the metaphor to reserving a sport route doesn’t quite hold for bouldering. The nature of working a problem to a route  had a very different rhythm (from what I remember about climbing with a rope!)

There’s quite a few problems I’ve worked where the landing / patio really only works for one or two people - and of someone is there and I want to go on it I’ll go somewhere else for a while. Or maybe ask if they can text me when they are off.

I think this is true up to a point but is context dependent. If someone is uncomfortable having lots of people around them, clearly thats fair enough, but venue/which day it is becomes relevant. I don't think it would be reasonable for someone to plonk their pads under The Terrace at Burbage North on a sunny Saturday for example and not want anyone else to try it at the same time.

The comparison to sport climbing holds in the sense that multiple people are touching the same holds and its possible to get out the way while someone else is trying it. If the issue is actually anyone else being present rather than how to best manage that then I don't think that's reasonable in every scenario. Ideally a bit of compromise and just going somewhere else for a while is how things will work in practice 95% of the time and that's all to the good, but its interesting thinking about these questions. I don't think a blanket 'if someone else is climbing there go somewhere else' is remotely workable tbh, especially seeing the Peak at weekends! Communication and politeness though, I am obviously all in favour of.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 09, 2020, 09:21:56 am
Absolutely - and because the issue isn’t binary it’s impossible to have a hard and fast rule - It’s down to judgement and etiquette (meaning unwritten rules or customs here).

By rhythm with sport climbing I meant people tend to spend much longer on an attempt and longer in between attempts. I’ll rarely spend more than an hour under a problem.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on December 09, 2020, 09:40:04 am
I agree with spidermonkey here. I generally always ask if it’s okay to join in but I would also be pretty taken aback if someone said no. I mostly think it’s about being reasonable: if you aren’t comfortable with people then definitely don’t go to a busy crag at the weekend. I also don’t believe that by putting pads underneath something or a rope up something that you can reserve that route/Boulder for yourself. I don’t feel (personally) that Covid has changed that.

That being said if someone did explain that they would prefer to socially distance then I would try my best to be reasonable and potentially come back to the problem later. This is much easier to do bouldering but with a route coming back later often really isn’t an option.

Dave
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on December 09, 2020, 09:56:10 am
On routes I'd typically expect to ask, and expect to be told it's ok to also climb. But beyond a certain busyness I'd find something else to try and would expect others to stop joining the queue. E.g. if there were 4/5 people on a route and someone else wanted to join I'd think they were being both stupid, and a dick.

P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on December 09, 2020, 10:32:36 am
Yup >>  https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i

That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).

TBH, I felt a bit guilty hanging around and retrospectively felt I should have just gone to try something else. I would have felt doubly guilty if Dolly hadn't have got the tick. I actually think I would have left if I hadn't of known you as stayed for a "socially distanced chat".
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on December 09, 2020, 11:04:26 am
On routes I'd typically expect to ask, and expect to be told it's ok to also climb. But beyond a certain busyness I'd find something else to try and would expect others to stop joining the queue. E.g. if there were 4/5 people on a route and someone else wanted to join I'd think they were being both stupid, and a dick.

P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.

Yep I agree with all parts of that
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on December 09, 2020, 11:11:09 am

P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.

Fuckin mental. If you want to grow things get an allotment or a viagra prescription. We live on a tiny ridiculously congested island with a population bigger than Canada and Australia combined and some conts want to cram even more of the fuckers onto our mostly tiny crags to fuck them even more and make the whole experience joyless and tormenting. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Dolly on December 09, 2020, 11:15:18 am
Yup >>  https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i (https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i)

That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).

TBH, I felt a bit guilty hanging around and retrospectively felt I should have just gone to try something else. I would have felt doubly guilty if Dolly hadn't have got the tick. I actually think I would have left if I hadn't of known you as stayed for a "socially distanced chat".


Not at all from my point of view mate. The fact you were so genuinely reasonable and demonstrably ok with me saying no helped me feel comfortable. As I said in my comment when I wadded you I really appreciated the genuine question and willingness to hear “no”
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on December 09, 2020, 11:34:28 am

P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.

Fuckin mental. If you want to grow things get an allotment or a viagra prescription. We live on a tiny ridiculously congested island with a population bigger than Canada and Australia combined and some conts want to cram even more of the fuckers onto our mostly tiny crags to fuck them even more and make the whole experience joyless and tormenting. 

 :lol: Brilliant. Should be shoehorned in to a new BMC / Climbing GB slogan.

On the subject of good, if slightly less eloquent, quotes, this one from monkey boy in that IG post is worth highlighting...

Quote
The Peak District has been over run and people are unable to think clearly about nature and others when they want to climb. It almost seems like people feel they have a right. No space to park, fuck it I’ll leave my car in the middle of the road. Someone projecting the climb I want to try, no worries 10 of us will get on it too. Wet rock, apply chalk 🤦🏻‍♂️. I’ve been saying for years that walls should run courses to teach outdoor etiquette to new climbers.

Little more to add except it should be obvious that with greater numbers, greater pressures and sensitivities due to Covid-5G, there should be greater responsibility and better behaviour.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on December 09, 2020, 11:44:35 am
I agree with spidermonkey here. I generally always ask if it’s okay to join in but I would also be pretty taken aback if someone said no. I mostly think it’s about being reasonable: if you aren’t comfortable with people then definitely don’t go to a busy crag at the weekend. I also don’t believe that by putting pads underneath something or a rope up something that you can reserve that route/Boulder for yourself. I don’t feel (personally) that Covid has changed that.

I'm quite the opposite, I wouldn't even try to join in with anyone currently (I ask how long they think they might be and plan to return) and even If I wanted to climb in the same area I would check they were happy with that. 
And I generally wouldn't be happy letting anyone join in with me, how you approach and broach the subject will help massively though.
Fortunately I'm ony out midweek but even that is pretty busy recently, it's pretty soul destroying some of the behaviour out there at the moment, from "parking" to massive groups and the lack of respect some people have for one another.



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: steveri on December 09, 2020, 11:50:04 am

Even before Covid I used to ask people if they minded if I joined them under a block/problem... just seemed polite.

I had a funny one recently with some folk getting too close. It wasn't something I was fussed about so it was easier to move on ...but then they started looking a bit iffy higher up so felt obliged to spot their dirty disease ridden body.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 09, 2020, 11:51:57 am

I'm quite the opposite, I wouldn't even try to join in with anyone currently (I ask how long they think they might be and plan to return) and even If I wanted to climb in the same area I would check they were happy with that. 
And I generally wouldn't be happy letting anyone join in with me, how you approach and broach the subject will help massively though.
Fortunately I'm ony out midweek but even that is pretty busy recently, it's pretty soul destroying some of the behaviour out there at the moment, from "parking" to massive groups and the lack of respect some people have for one another.


Fair dos, although as a weekend warrior I don't think I'd get much climbing done if I had a similar ethos. The parking issue is massive and worse than ever, don't think I had appreciated the role of the Fox House car park in terms of getting 100+ cars off the road every weekend. The only solution is more infrastructure, which probably won't happen...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on December 09, 2020, 12:00:51 pm
I agree with spidermonkey here. I generally always ask if it’s okay to join in but I would also be pretty taken aback if someone said no. I mostly think it’s about being reasonable: if you aren’t comfortable with people then definitely don’t go to a busy crag at the weekend. I also don’t believe that by putting pads underneath something or a rope up something that you can reserve that route/Boulder for yourself. I don’t feel (personally) that Covid has changed that.
For me, covid does change things because everybody has such different risk profiles. It doesn't give people the right to reserve a boulder but I think everyone has a duty to respect that not everybody is in a position to have an equal acceptance of risk, even outdoors.

But it is very dependent on the situation and location. If someone has gone to Harland Edge or Howshaw Tor on a Tuesday morning, they might have a reasonable expectation of being able to have a quiet time, isolated from others. If someone has gone to the cave at Raven Tor or Kudos wall on a wet Saturday, they do not have a reasonable expectation of having a peaceful day away from others and they can't expect to ask someone not to join them on a particular problem.

I always ask before joining people, even in non-covid times.

If I want to climb at some dank limestone cave with little airflow and I find someone is there first, I make it clear that is ok to say no if they aren't comfortable and I'll move on. I might feel put out if someone were to say no at some moorland grit with loads of airflow where it is easy to distance between attempts.

I don't think anybody has said no at all this year but I have spent much of the year avoiding busy places.

I have moved on from places where people have been incapable of distancing and I've chosen to go to another boulder or buttress rather than join people if places are busy. I also drove on to another venue at times in the summer when it was clear from the car park that somewhere was too busy for distancing to be possible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on December 09, 2020, 01:10:15 pm
the only solution is reopening all the entertainment venues and chainstraunts now I fully appreciate the role they perform in keeping other people away from places I like to be
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 09, 2020, 01:26:08 pm
Truth. Although if the genie is out the bottle now and people continue to like being outside more than they did before we're all fucked!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 09, 2020, 02:03:55 pm
I think the recent posts on sharing/not sharing just highlight how unequal the exposure risk to covid is. It’s very apparent when you look at the risk some people have no choice to be exposed to.

Afaik many people posting here work mainly or entirely from home. I do, 95% since March. I’m lucky.

Person A, working mainly from home, sat under boulder. Person B, turns up. They don’t work from home. To earn money and keep their job they have to a encounter lot of others on a daily basis - on a scale of one or two others, to being crammed with many others in confined indoor spaces with poor ventilation. Forget ‘covid-safe’ it’s a workplace myth and just box ticking to make managers feel like they’ve done something positive. ‘Covid safe’ is a bit like saying ‘flu-safe’ - it isn’t and can’t be.

Person A is a bit miffed that on their time off from home-working when they go outdoors bouldering other people don’t respect not sharing the boulder problem they’re on.
Politeness is important to grease society, but I think person A needs some perspective.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on December 09, 2020, 02:05:41 pm
Truth. Although if the genie is out the bottle now and people continue to like being outside more than they did before we're all fucked!

I'm sure there's enough of us grumpy old bastards on here to make them feel unwelcome and send them running back to the warmth, flat whites and the pumping soundtrack of the wall.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 09, 2020, 02:46:43 pm
I think the recent posts on sharing/not sharing just highlight how unequal the exposure risk to covid is. It’s very apparent when you look at the risk some people have no choice to be exposed to.

Afaik many people posting here work mainly or entirely from home. I do, 95% since March. I’m lucky.

Person A, working mainly from home, sat under boulder. Person B, turns up. They don’t work from home. To earn money and keep their job they have to a encounter lot of others on a daily basis - on a scale of one or two others, to being crammed with many others in confined indoor spaces with poor ventilation. Forget ‘covid-safe’ it’s a workplace myth and just box ticking to make managers feel like they’ve done something positive. ‘Covid safe’ is a bit like saying ‘flu-safe’ - it isn’t and can’t be.

Person A is a bit miffed that on their time off from home-working when they go outdoors bouldering other people don’t respect not sharing the boulder problem they’re on.
Politeness is important to grease society, but I think person A needs some perspective.

Yeah I think this is all very true. Person B is quite understandably not going to see what the problem is given their experiences at work.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 09, 2020, 03:25:10 pm
... I think person A needs some perspective.

This is all very true, but it's perfectly possible to turn it around. To say that person A needs some perspective implies that person B is "right" and person A "wrong". We all need a bit more understanding IMO.

In the specific example of sharing problems, I would hope to be asked, and I would always say yes. But if people don't give as much space as they could, they should expect to get an earful, regardless of what their day-to-day risk is like. In fact, if their day-to-day risk is high they should arguably be more considerate of others, not less.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 09, 2020, 03:55:48 pm
I think this is where the getting some perspective comes in - people who spend their days having to share offices, canteens or other indoor spaces with many others, at considerably more risk than home workers, will understandably find the whole outdoor bouldering sharing/not sharing scene slightly absurd. But yes understanding *is* important, that's why I said
Quote
Politeness is important to grease society
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 09, 2020, 05:06:05 pm
That’s why I said both need some perspective.

For those sharing work spaces day to day, an afternoon at the Tor might be the least risky thing they do all week.

For a home worker it might be the most risky thing they do each week.

Each needs to understand the other.

Edit: to imply perspective only works one way suggests that the office worker is right, and the home worker wrong. But the fact that we are only just keeping things under control suggests that averaged over the whole society we are just about taking the right amount of risk.

So neither are right or wrong, it’s just understanding that people may feel differently.

The office workers behaviour might really upset and scare a timid homeworker. The way you frame this implies you think the home worker should just get a grip.

Maybe you don’t mean this, but it’s how I read your posts and it’s a position that’s wrong from both a statistical and a human point of view.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 09, 2020, 05:55:35 pm
I think this is where the getting some perspective comes in - people who spend their days having to share offices, canteens or other indoor spaces with many others, at considerably more risk than home workers, will understandably find the whole outdoor bouldering sharing/not sharing scene slightly absurd. But yes understanding *is* important, that's why I said
Quote
Politeness is important to grease society

It is a fair point you make, but personally I don’t find it works this way for me. Most weeks I get emails telling me that child X or Y that I taught for 2 hours earlier in the week at a distance of 3m (So no need to isolate) has now tested positive.

I am not confident I can happily roll those dice forever, so I am more risk averse, not less. Work risks I can do very little about. Others I do my damnedest to manage.

As regards distancing at boulders, I appreciate not getting on something can be frustrating. I would ask, and accept no as an answer, in the unlikely event that I wanted to share space with someone. On the few occasions I have been out recently, I have just waited till that bit of rock is free.

On the Plantation Pebble on a sunny afternoon, that’s quite a wait.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: seankenny on December 09, 2020, 06:38:53 pm
The problem with the Person A vs Person B argument above is that it's being considered in an individualistic paradigm, and considering individual risk isn't entirely right here. We have a society-wide "budget" of contacts that will keep the virus in check, and if we exceed that budget then the numbers go up. So if we want more of one thing, education, then we need to have less of another thing, say eating out.

What we do as individuals matters not just in terms of individual risk but also the collective budget, particularly for younger people who may not be at risk themselves but can be part of a chain of contacts that eventually carries the virus to someone who is in a high risk group.

To my mind, this means both people in the example have a responsibility to keep contacts down when they are not necessary, regardless of what they were doing during the week. We shouldn't punish the factory worker - stuff needs doing, both for society and individual survival, so they add unavoidably add to the big UK-wide budget of contacts. But that doesn't mean the homeworker, who's been avoiding spending the contacts budget, gets a free ride to avoid social distancing. What matters is the big contacts budget which we can all do something to reduce.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 09, 2020, 06:45:30 pm
Basically, the pandemic is a disaster. Make an effort to avoid fuelling the damn thing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 09, 2020, 07:24:47 pm
The office workers behaviour might really upset and scare a timid homeworker. The way you frame this implies you think the home worker should just get a grip.

Maybe you don’t mean this, but it’s how I read your posts and it’s a position that’s wrong from both a statistical and a human point of view.

No I don't think there's a right or a wrong, if it reads that way -  I don't actually think it does? - then that wasn't intended.

What's being discussed here is the sort of thing that can lead to etiquette being established, and people who then break said etiquette being made to feel they've done something bad. I don't think etiquette should be established by only one group of very privileged people. That's all.

The person you're getting miffed at out at the boulders for wanting to enjoy the same thing as you may be feeling a bit shit and looking for some life-enhancing freedom, because they had to spend the whole day with 20 other workers in proximity all coughing and shouting and talking and nobody really gave a shit about coivd. And apparently that's considered an essential activity and the risk is a necessary one so that people with lots of capital can continue to have lots of capital.

But heaven forbid if people may want to introduce any extra covid risk into their frivolous, joyous, life-enhancing activities. But I'd place higher value on the frivolous life-enhancing stuff then the workplace stuff.

I agree with the idea of a 'contacts budget' and have been living my life with pretty much that concept in mind this year. But some people are being forced by market forces to unwillingly blow their 'contacts budget' many times over, just to get by and keep their job.
There is also a 'freedom to enjoy yourself' budget which it's important not to restrict too much.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 09, 2020, 08:34:28 pm

Obviously 'let he who is without sin' etc..; it's so very easy to prance about on a high moral horse, but I think you are a bit soft on people here.  People forget themselves, get caught up in the moment, and so on. And perfection is unattainable unless you are a hermit, but there is a false opposition here.

You can have a bad Covid-infested day at the office and still make an effort to avoid being a vector of transmission at the boulders / wall / anywhere else you need to go to relax.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 09, 2020, 09:03:40 pm
That is how it came across to me, but lord knows the internet’s not the best place for nuance.

I’d agree with what you wrote 100% if the etiquette being established by the privileged was anything more than “don’t be a dick”.

I don’t see anyone saying that they don’t want people joining them on a problem. I’ve only seen people saying it’s nice to ask first. And I would add giving them as much space as possible.

Everyone’s entitled to get out in their free time and enjoy themselves at the crag, but if someone has an objection to being considerate of others, then they’re an arse, plain and simple.

And that applies to someone who refuses to share problems for no reason just as much as someone who assumes I want them to sit on my mat next to me and use my chalk. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 09, 2020, 09:22:15 pm
Agreed.
All I'd add is that outdoor bouldering, even with strangers sharing the same problem, is so low risk for catching covid* compared to most other daily activities excluding being a hermit that I don't believe the fear is rational.


* https://indoor-covid-safety.herokuapp.com/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on December 09, 2020, 09:35:18 pm
I think it would be reasonably rational for people with shit immune systems who are hermiting but still want to get out. We are out there. In my case fear is a bit strong. Its just probability after all.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on December 09, 2020, 10:19:55 pm
I completely understand that different people will have different feelings towards sharing boulders, so I've not said anything as I don't want to seem like I'm judging (I'm not). However I do think Pete is right when he says that the risk of sharing a boulder is probably nil. Maybe there's a risk on a totally still day in some limestone hole, but very likely not on 99% of problems.
I understand that others will feel differently. I'd go so far as to say (not talking about any individuals here) that people are becoming quite institutionalised into strict social distancing now - beyond what the evidence would suggest is sensible.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 09, 2020, 10:47:03 pm
Totally agree that the risk outdoors is very low, but to describe it as probably nil is not an evidence supported position at all. To quote SAGE:

Quote
Outdoor transmission remains low risk through aerosol and indirect contact routes, but face- to-face exposure (e.g. ≤2m for a prolonged period) should still be considered a potential risk for transmission via respiratory droplets.

Provided everyone doesn’t behave like the risk is “probably nil” then the risk is probably nil. But I’ve literally had people wait for their turns standing on my mats, whilst wiping their snotty nose on their hands. In these scenarios the risk is probably not probably nil and I’ll probably ask you to keep some distance. Probably.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on December 09, 2020, 11:06:22 pm
Sure. Obviously being outdoors has no bearing on risk when coughing or otherwise dropletting on someone. I should have said probably close to nil providing you take SD precautions.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 10, 2020, 08:12:35 am
For the armchair outside mixing is fine posters - there are famous examples of outdoor superspreader events. (White house rose garden - 25 cases associated with it)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_COVID-19_outbreak

Now two strangers sitting apart underneath a lump of blustery rock isn’t the same. But this is an outside event where people sat next to each other that led to considerable transmission.

Whilst on this thread I’ve heard of several examples of people unhappy/uncomfortable with people/groups joining them and have left - I’ve not heard of any examples of ‘Boulder hogging’. As C Widdy said - reducing transmission is all about reducing contacts. Perhaps those willing to walk away - or say something if they are uncomfortable should be applauded rather than chided. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 10, 2020, 09:02:02 am
For the armchair outside mixing is fine posters - there are famous examples of outdoor superspreader events. (White house rose garden - 25 cases associated with it)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_COVID-19_outbreak

Now two strangers sitting apart underneath a lump of blustery rock isn’t the same. But this is an outside event where people sat next to each other that led to considerable transmission.

Whilst on this thread I’ve heard of several examples of people unhappy/uncomfortable with people/groups joining them and have left - I’ve not heard of any examples of ‘Boulder hogging’. As C Widdy said - reducing transmission is all about reducing contacts. Perhaps those willing to walk away - or say something if they are uncomfortable should be applauded rather than chided.

Ok.

Yes and no.

When we redesigned the vent for the wall, we went through the various incident investigations available and the recommendations very thoroughly,
It really doesn’t take very much air flow to massively reduce chances of infection.
That isn’t always enough though. One study of an event at a restaurant, highlighted that “flow” wasn’t enough. The restaurant had reasonable vent exchange rates, but drew in air at one end of the room and extracted from the other. The event lead to several infections down stream of the spreader (and, surprisingly, a smaller number up stream). Up shot being “vertical” beats ‘horizontal” for room vent.
Outdoors, even on an apparently still day, unless you are in a large cave with a narrow entrance (ie, not outdoors); the air flow is going to be very chaotic. Think about foggy, still, days. If you actually watch the fog, it’s really not very still at all. Anyway, outdoors, there will be a large vertical component to the air movement and such chaotic, high, dispersal; that infection over even quite short distances becomes really quite unlikely, for small, mobile, groups with reasonable distancing.
The Rose garden incident was quite a specific set of circumstances. About the worst outdoor scenario you could imagine. Large number of people, not enough distancing, sat and static, with heads at similar levels, for an extended period, in a sheltered spot. Then all the unmasked, undistanced, social interaction that occurred before and after etc.
Ultimately though, imagine how bad the same event would have been if it had occurred indoors!
Basically, whilst it shows the limitations of the Outdoors as an infection mitigation strategy, it doesn’t inform you much about your individual risk as a boulderer at a crag with a few other people, even on a still day.
You could be very unlucky and meet a statistically unlikely cloud of sufficiently virus laden particles and even more unlucky to actually inhale them, but the same is true on a pavement or any outdoor public space. Or even a well ventilated indoor space. Even indoors, the worst scenario is one where people remain static for extended periods. It’s like blindfolded dodgeball. If everyone stands still, too close together, and blindly lobs unlimited balls in random directions, the more people and the closer they stand, the more balls are going to make contact. Reduce the number of people, spread them out, make them mobile and the chances of a hit drop dramatically. Ventilation (in particular chaotic air flow) acts like randomly deployed obstacles, in the dodgeball analogy, deflecting or outright stopping (even sucking up and totally removing) the balls.
Add masks (effectively reducing the number of balls you can throw) and the risk is going to be so low, it’s not worth thinking about.

It’s not zero. You could be unlucky. But just as a thought experiment, the crag, even with a small group of, say, less than 10, is a significantly less risky environment than an even slightly busy pavement, which is already a low risk  environment.
Just don’t all huddle under the same overhang when it rains,
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on December 10, 2020, 09:20:13 am
For the armchair outside mixing is fine posters - there are famous examples of outdoor superspreader events. (White house rose garden - 25 cases associated with it)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_COVID-19_outbreak

Now two strangers sitting apart underneath a lump of blustery rock isn’t the same. But this is an outside event where people sat next to each other that led to considerable transmission.

Whilst on this thread I’ve heard of several examples of people unhappy/uncomfortable with people/groups joining them and have left - I’ve not heard of any examples of ‘Boulder hogging’. As C Widdy said - reducing transmission is all about reducing contacts. Perhaps those willing to walk away - or say something if they are uncomfortable should be applauded rather than chided.

Similar to what OMM said. I'd be interested to hear about transmission events that were comparable with socially distanced bouldering.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 36chambers on December 10, 2020, 09:22:59 am
How else do you approach someone who's climbing where you want to climb without saying "Hey, don't mind if I join you do you?".

At the very least it's that crucial ice breaker and it obviously gives them a chance to say otherwise.

I've been caught off guard once or twice in the past when someone has arrived to where I'm climbing and they don't say anything more than "hey"... and then after a long silence I'm like "nice weather huh"

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 10, 2020, 10:49:31 am
Similar to what OMM said. I'd be interested to hear about transmission events that were comparable with socially distanced bouldering.

If you are really interested Will, you can read a long review of it here - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.04.20188417v2.full.pdf

As always with these things the evidence is patchy, inconsistent and difficult to interpret as there are many confounding factors. Did the study take place before social distancing restrictions were in place? How effective is contact tracing outdoors when most interactions are with people you would fail to trace later?

But it basically says outdoor transmission is less likely, but far from impossible.

e.g

- in a study in Japan before SD was implemented, 10% of cases traced were from outdoor transmission  :o
- but a similar study of 7000 cases in China found only 1 transmission event was outdoors, following a conversation  :beer2:

The biggest study of over 20,000 cases finds around 5% rise from outdoor transmission, or "transmission from events with an outdoor element". 2% arise from purely outdoor transmission.

So it's definitely small, but non-zero. If your only contact with others each week was climbing at the crag you'd be damn unlucky to catch covid, but a damn fool to give your gran a kiss and a hug because you think you "can't" have caught it.



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 10, 2020, 10:55:53 am
When we redesigned the vent for the wall, we went through the various incident investigations available and the recommendations very thoroughly,
It really doesn’t take very much air flow to massively reduce chances of infection.

Matt, this is a very thoughtful answer, but also very focused on aerosol transmission. I think you'd be *very* unlucky to get infected outdoors via aerosols or through surface transmission.

The risk, low as it is, will be from droplets; the larger droplets are much less affected by airflow and your risk from this mode outdoors is not much reduced from indoors.

The numerical modelling hand-waving done to date come up with figures like 1 cough within 2m = 30 minutes of conversation at 2m in terms of risk.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 10, 2020, 12:06:29 pm
When we redesigned the vent for the wall, we went through the various incident investigations available and the recommendations very thoroughly,
It really doesn’t take very much air flow to massively reduce chances of infection.

Matt, this is a very thoughtful answer, but also very focused on aerosol transmission. I think you'd be *very* unlucky to get infected outdoors via aerosols or through surface transmission.

The risk, low as it is, will be from droplets; the larger droplets are much less affected by airflow and your risk from this mode outdoors is not much reduced from indoors.

The numerical modelling hand-waving done to date come up with figures like 1 cough within 2m = 30 minutes of conversation at 2m in terms of risk.

Yes.
But this is where turbulent flows begin to have an influence, especially the vertical components. Helping to arrest that lateral movement. Shortening the cone, if you will.
 This is largely assumption on my part, that the principles I would use to design a vent system in a galley (where we aim to control propagation of various gaseous and air borne particulates (obviously, the primary control is keeping the galley pressure negative with respect to the rest of the ship) in an environment where you can’t just open a window). Of course, when you’re paying in the several tens of millions for your yacht, you don’t expect to be able to smell the Chef frying his Mackerel for lunch, unless you are standing beside him.
We use all kinds of tricks and rules of thumb to mitigate such propagation and not just in the galley, all kinds of potentially flammable or otherwise harmful vapours and emissions need controlling in various machinery spaces, equipment compartments and tanks; all of which are unlikely to be ‘naturally” ventilated in any way.
Confined space entry and the like are actually the straightforward examples, designing the ventilation in total for a large multi-use vessel is mind bending. I was lucky enough to be a junior on the team that put together the NBCD systems for the Type 23 Frigates, which was an eye opener.

Anyway, what I’m saying is, if you push air down here, suck it out there, direct it through this space here, swirl it that way now and send that stream into opposition to that one or obliquely into those streams etc etc etc, you can really knock droplets down quite quickly.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on December 10, 2020, 02:53:20 pm
Similar to what OMM said. I'd be interested to hear about transmission events that were comparable with socially distanced bouldering.

If you are really interested Will, you can read a long review of it here - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.04.20188417v2.full.pdf

As always with these things the evidence is patchy, inconsistent and difficult to interpret as there are many confounding factors. Did the study take place before social distancing restrictions were in place? How effective is contact tracing outdoors when most interactions are with people you would fail to trace later?

But it basically says outdoor transmission is less likely, but far from impossible.

e.g

- in a study in Japan before SD was implemented, 10% of cases traced were from outdoor transmission  :o
- but a similar study of 7000 cases in China found only 1 transmission event was outdoors, following a conversation  :beer2:

The biggest study of over 20,000 cases finds around 5% rise from outdoor transmission, or "transmission from events with an outdoor element". 2% arise from purely outdoor transmission.

So it's definitely small, but non-zero. If your only contact with others each week was climbing at the crag you'd be damn unlucky to catch covid, but a damn fool to give your gran a kiss and a hug because you think you "can't" have caught it.

Nice one, Stu. Some interesting stuff therein. Reading it gives me confidence that sharing a boulder while socially distancing and hand sanitising is spectacularly unlikely to result in transmission. I respect that other people might be of a different view or have a different attitude towards risk. I'm not going to barge into someone's boulder bubble.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 30, 2020, 04:13:39 pm
Most of the Peak is now in T4 it would appear. Does this mean you shouldn’t or cannot travel into there for leisure?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on December 30, 2020, 04:18:22 pm
Most of the Peak is now in T4 it would appear. Does this mean you shouldn’t or cannot travel into there for leisure?

Just been checking this out. Effective from Thursday if I've read it correctly.

Travelling to a Tier 4 area from a Tier 1, 2 or 3 area
You should not travel into a Tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons such as:

travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
to visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
to attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 30, 2020, 04:30:26 pm
Should not must as far as I can see, but I think I'm fairly likely to take my chances as things stand. This winter is going to be grim enough as it is without the odd day outside. I wouldn't judge anyone else doing likewise.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 30, 2020, 04:33:58 pm
Should not must as far as I can see, but I think I'm fairly likely to take my chances as things stand. This winter is going to be grim enough as it is without the odd day outside. I wouldn't judge anyone else doing likewise.

Yup. The oddity is that apart from “stay local” it’s fine to go there from a T4 area like Manc will be.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 30, 2020, 04:37:37 pm
I don't think so as travel in and out of Tier 4 areas should be avoided, regardless of whether one is going into the same tier level or not?

I'm basically over the governments advice anyway and am planning on being as sensible as I can whilst also not going mad.  National measures or nothing as far as I'm concerned; the Tiers system is an undiluted failure.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 30, 2020, 05:02:02 pm
Should not must as far as I can see, but I think I'm fairly likely to take my chances as things stand. This winter is going to be grim enough as it is without the odd day outside. I wouldn't judge anyone else doing likewise.

Yep, this. Nothing in law still to prevent travelling for exercise regardless of your tier level or the destination tier.

The letter of the regulation still gives "exercise outside" as a "reasonable excuse" for residents of tier 4 areas to be outside their home, and I can't see anything in law which would prevent travelling into a tier 4 area for exercise either.

This differs from the guidance on the Government website, which says "you should not travel into a tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons".... which don't include exercise.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 30, 2020, 05:47:45 pm
..
I'm basically over the governments advice anyway and am planning on being as sensible as I can whilst also not going mad.  National measures or nothing as far as I'm concerned; the Tiers system is an undiluted failure.

I'm not judging either way on the first sentence of this paragraph. But I'm interested in your rationale behind your second sentence - the guidance is now very clear, from midnight the whole of England is either tier 3 or 4, majority tier 4. So any 'national measure' now would simply mean changing the minority of tier 3 areas into tier 4 (which will no doubt happen anyway over the coming weeks). So what about a 'national measure' now would make you act any differently to how you've already decided to act, i.e. being sensible and continuing to go out?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 30, 2020, 05:48:44 pm
A fb post from Coniston MR suggested otherwise - that whilst travel for excercise was allowed in lockdown1 that wasn’t the case now (from T4 areas etc..). Not stirring - I think by now most climbers can make sensible decisions - but wondered if there were a legal difference we’ve missed.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 30, 2020, 06:00:17 pm
I unfollowed MR teams om Facebook ages ago as I got sick of their moralising tone, well before covid! I appreciate the job they do hauling people off mountains but can do without their "mountain police" shtick. 

In response to Pete, it's a good point, and actually might not change my behaviour in practice now I think about it. When I typed the initial post my point was more that in the absence of any evidence of joined up thinking and forethought by the government, my acting sensibly has basically no impact on things. I would have counted an immediate national lockdown this evening as a step in the right direction and so might have got more buy in from me in terms of following rules to the letter. For me it seems quite tied up with how much faith I have in the government, back in march it was all new and scary and I was willing to dramatically curtail my climbing while they sorted things out. Now they have failed to do that I'm not sure I will act the same this time round. Clearly ethically that is problematic but it's interesting thinking it through, will continue to do so.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 30, 2020, 06:03:11 pm
I think many feel the same, right or wrong.

And yes MR would do well to drop their moralising mountain police vibe. As the saying goes: it's a shit job but nobody has to do it.

edit.. have just returned from a drive around Snowdonia to check on winter climbing conditions in the mountains. It looks like we're going to get amazing prolonged spell of winter climbing connies and this will be the first time for around 5 years or more.. I have a list of mixed climbing FAs I'd love to try but I'm feeling very unsure of actually doing anything.. just feel like my heart's not in it. Also it's a higher risk form of climbing.  Might just stick to soloing around the hills on easy stuff.
Saw plenty of police out in the Pass and Ogwen stopping motorists.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on December 30, 2020, 06:05:01 pm
Is Wales the same rules/legal platform as England, police sending people home and/or fining them:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-visitors-turned-away-from-brecon-beacons-after-hundreds-of-vehicles-arrive-12175315
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 30, 2020, 06:07:01 pm
A fb post from Coniston MR suggested otherwise - that whilst travel for excercise was allowed in lockdown1 that wasn’t the case now (from T4 areas etc..). Not stirring - I think by now most climbers can make sensible decisions - but wondered if there were a legal difference we’ve missed.

Nope, that's not correct according to the legislation.

The difference is that, as Pete said, the guidance in the tier system now says very clearly you shouldn't travel outside your local area for exercise, whereas in lockdown it didn't. The guidance is not legally enforceable though, because, as I said above, exercise outdoors by yourself or with members of your household is clearly stated as being a reasonable excuse to be outside your home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 30, 2020, 06:09:37 pm
Is Wales the same rules/legal platform as England, police sending people home and/or fining them:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-visitors-turned-away-from-brecon-beacons-after-hundreds-of-vehicles-arrive-12175315

Welsh rules are different but I've not looked at them in detail. I think there's something in there about exercise having to start from and end at your home, as they're back in a full lockdown now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 30, 2020, 06:13:10 pm
Just edited my post above..

Yes the Wales rule is exercise must start and finish at home. It's enforceable, not just guidance.

Lots of people are breaking that rule by driving into the hills to exercise. I went out round Snowdonia today to check on winter climbing connies (excellent) and the police were very visible in the Pass and Ogwen, stopping motorists. I'd expect some leeway for 'locals' and less leeway if you've driven from Manchester etc. Didn't get stopped so don't know how strictly they're enforcing the rules. I suspect the police will be asked to turn the screw and set some examples over the next two weeks.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 30, 2020, 06:17:31 pm
Lots of people are breaking that rule by driving into the hills to exercise. I went out round Snowdonia today to check on winter climbing connies (excellent) and the police were very visible in the Pass and Ogwen, stopping motorists. I'd expect some leeway for 'locals' and less leeway if you've driven from Manchester etc.

Moving away from the legalities of it all, this really pisses me off. I mean if there's anywhere we can be pretty damn sure the virus doesn't spread it's when you're by yourself in the middle of nowhere!! Likewise driving in your car on your own.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wil on December 30, 2020, 06:29:31 pm
 As with others I was happy to be obedient with the first lockdown and didn't go climbing. I'm far less inclined to follow advice about only exercising from home this time round, no clear case for why this is necessary has been made. There could be one, I think people's lack of imagination is one - all going to the same place, but I haven't seen evidence that this is a factor in spread.

I can't help but feel that it's a measure based on optics more than anything else though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Hoseyb on December 30, 2020, 07:08:16 pm
I was told that there hasn't been a single proven case of transmission in the outdoors, although I haven't trawled the literature to see if its true. I could walk from home into the mountains (I live above deiniolen in North Wales), however, every other bugger is out there with the same idea. I'd rather drive 20 mins to be properly in the middle of Esoteric nowhere.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 30, 2020, 07:13:57 pm
Just edited my post above..

Yes the Wales rule is exercise must start and finish at home. It's enforceable, not just guidance.

Lots of people are breaking that rule by driving into the hills to exercise. I went out round Snowdonia today to check on winter climbing connies (excellent) and the police were very visible in the Pass and Ogwen, stopping motorists. I'd expect some leeway for 'locals' and less leeway if you've driven from Manchester etc. Didn't get stopped so don't know how strictly they're enforcing the rules. I suspect the police will be asked to turn the screw and set some examples over the next two weeks.

A large number of “Tabbers and Yompers” were stopped, fined and turned away from the Fan today. I’m not sure why certain veterans think they’re exempt the rules, but hey ho.
They’re saying there were “hundreds” sic of people out to enjoy the snow and all were turned back and many fined.
One of the lads I know was quite indignant that, since he lived in Bristol, he was local...
Tit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 30, 2020, 07:41:32 pm
I was told that there hasn't been a single proven case of transmission in the outdoors, although I haven't trawled the literature to see if its true.

This is very definitely not true. There’s a link higher up the thread by me with a review of transmission environments. Outdoor transmission is rare, but accounts for something of order of a few percent of all cases
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on December 30, 2020, 08:40:03 pm
I'm not remotely convinced the risk of transmission between random hillwalkers justifies these restrictions. However the reality I see out and about is that people are desperate to socialise and quite happy to bend the rules, and even without car sharing there is plenty going on in the great outdoors that could cause transmission. If that is the reason for the restrictions they should state that clearly and enforce breaches though. I don't think the KISS message of 'stay home save the NHS' is going to wash this time. OTOH Meadowhall was full, one in one out yesterday, so in the bigger picture whatever outdoor folk do is pissing in the wind without shops, schools and workplaces shut.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Doylo on December 30, 2020, 08:41:25 pm
I just tell them it’s work and I’m paying myself in mental health tokens.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on December 30, 2020, 08:55:42 pm
OTOH Meadowhall was full, one in one out yesterday, so in the bigger picture whatever outdoor folk do is pissing in the wind without shops, schools and workplaces shut.

It was mad to read that footfall for Boxing Day sales was only 50% of last year, and that was with London and a lot of other big SE places shut, boggled my mind!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 30, 2020, 09:18:57 pm
Trafford centre has been one in one out since Boxing Day... at least they’re limiting numbers inside.

Bobbed into Decathlon quickly today as the lad lost his gloves and it was busier than than I felt comfortable with.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 30, 2020, 10:12:22 pm
OTOH Meadowhall was full, one in one out yesterday, so in the bigger picture whatever outdoor folk do is pissing in the wind without shops, schools and workplaces shut.

This is what annoys me about the police stopping people exercising outdoors in Wales. What a total waste of time and resources when they could, for instance, be enforcing social distancing in shopping centres, or supporting mass testing, or going after actual criminals. Etc. Etc. Etc.

All that said, it does seem like this new strain is on a whole new level to what happened in March / April. Having covered the legality of it, what do people think about the morality of climbing now? Especially travelling any sort of distance? First time around there was lots of concern about putting extra strain on the NHS if you hurt yourself; with hospitals now under even more strain than in the first wave, should we be stopping voluntarily?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on December 30, 2020, 11:05:54 pm
Nope.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Sidehaas on December 30, 2020, 11:16:28 pm
Re legality of this. The law on traveling away from your home for residents of Tier 4 is the same as the most recent lockdown, but the guidance is significantly stricter. It doesn't even just say not to leave your tier 4 area, it says not to leave your village, town or part of a city. It's fairly obvious that excludes the Peak for most people (Hathersage residents might be ok). Guidance like that never existed before.
The reason it could be important is in how the law is interpreted. Within the law, your travel away from home to take exercise or do recreation in an outdoor space has to be "reasonably necessary". In the context of the tier 4 guidance, it seems far more likely to me now that a policeman (who in practice will be making the decision for you) or theoretically a court, would judge a 45 minute drive in to the peak to be unreasonable.
Would be interested in comments from any of the lawyers...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on December 31, 2020, 08:35:55 am
Here in the staffs moorlands we have gone to t4. I won't be leaving the area, will just keep it local to roaches and ramshaw etc. Not that it makes any difference as its snowing again. Just hope the new restrictions mean I can actually park again.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on December 31, 2020, 08:51:38 am
Interesting Sidehaas. 👍

Would be nice to have some clarification from (for example) a National body representing climbers? Ahem...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on December 31, 2020, 09:02:45 am
For Sheff residents it would appear that the entire Burbage valley is in S Yorkshire and hence still Tier 3. As such driving from the city to climb there would still seem to be entirely reasonable, especially if you have a Lancia Delta Integrale.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on December 31, 2020, 09:14:35 am
Yep, theoretically Burbage Bridge ok, Cowper Stone not. Millstone ok, Lawrencefield not.
We can feasibly also travel ~40 minutes across town to several mag-lime venues but not 10 minutes across the border to Stanage.
Common sense to be applied of course


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stabbsy on December 31, 2020, 09:53:43 am
For Sheff residents it would appear that the entire Burbage valley is in S Yorkshire and hence still Tier 3. As such driving from the city to climb there would still seem to be entirely reasonable, especially if you have a Lancia Delta Integrale.
Burbage Valley is, but in a lot of cases the road isn’t. Ringinglow Road is in Derbyshire beyond the cattle grid (if the accuracy of the OS map is to be believed), so you’d have to park there and walk over the top if you were following rules to the letter. Surprise View car park is in Sheffield, but the road isn’t beyond Fox House or Toad’s Mouth (or not entirely anyway). Let’s hope the police don’t decide to enforce it that way.

Either way, I don’t have a Lancia Delta so maybe I should stick to the shed (and Bell Hagg, obviously).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on December 31, 2020, 11:08:29 am
I wish I had an intergrale.  I remember the days when you could get an evo 1  for 6 or 7k. Long gone is that opportunity.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on December 31, 2020, 11:24:16 am
Re legality of this. The law on traveling away from your home for residents of Tier 4 is the same as the most recent lockdown, but the guidance is significantly stricter. It doesn't even just say not to leave your tier 4 area, it says not to leave your village, town or part of a city. It's fairly obvious that excludes the Peak for most people (Hathersage residents might be ok). Guidance like that never existed before.
The reason it could be important is in how the law is interpreted. Within the law, your travel away from home to take exercise or do recreation in an outdoor space has to be "reasonably necessary". In the context of the tier 4 guidance, it seems far more likely to me now that a policeman (who in practice will be making the decision for you) or theoretically a court, would judge a 45 minute drive in to the peak to be unreasonable.
Would be interested in comments from any of the lawyers...


The qualifying bit that you didn’t include that was in your ukc post that is relevant to Sheffielders:

Quote from: Sidehaas /SiDH link=topic= https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/tier_5_rumours-729375?v=1#x9365533
None of the above affects someone living in a Tier 3 area from travelling to a Tier 4 area for exercise - there is nothing in the legislation to prevent that (because the legal bit all stems from the requirement to stay at home) although it is advised against in the guidance
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Sidehaas on December 31, 2020, 12:05:14 pm
Yes sorry I wrote a bit more on ukc. Post on here was only about tier 4 residents.
Would still like a professional to agree/disagree really, my legal training is fairly limited.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on December 31, 2020, 12:14:27 pm
It’s infuriating that guidance and rules for the general public needs legal interpretation
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on December 31, 2020, 01:14:35 pm
It’s infuriating that guidance and rules for the general public needs legal interpretation

Does it though? The guidance at least is now, perhaps for the first time since March, really quite clear.

Quote
If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes). If you need to travel you should stay local – meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live – and look to reduce the number of journeys you make overall. The list of reasons you can leave your home and area include, but are not limited to:

- outdoor recreation or exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your Tier 4 area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)

Travelling to a Tier 4 area from a Tier 1, 2 or 3 area
You should not travel into a Tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons such as:

travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
to visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
to attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)


It only needs interpretation if you actually want to dig into the underlying legislation, so as to find loopholes that allow you to continue your activity of choice (which I was absolutely trying to do yesterday  :guilty:).

No the legislation doesn't quite match up with the guidance but does that make it right to ignore it?

Anyway, I'm sure we'll be back to a full lockdown in a few days anyway so it's probably all a bit moot. I felt quite happy travelling during November's lockdown and probably will again, but the point of the tier system is to try and limit the spread of this new variant across the country, which seems to be at least worth a go.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 31, 2020, 02:46:19 pm
Its the whole concept of guidance that I don't agree with, as has been gone over many a time on this thread. If you don't want people to do something, make it enforceable in law. By not doing that these sort of conversations become inevitable.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on December 31, 2020, 08:39:02 pm
Just returned from a walk in the very snowy mountains. Looks like winter climbing connies are now starting to come in pretty good in Snowdonia. Unsure how psyched I feel to do anything much more than easier supposedly lower-risk stuff though. Lots of cars at Ogwen cottage when we got down, carpark probaly 3/4 full, with loads of people out walking around Lyn Idwal. Probably numbers at least in the high hundreds out in Snowdonia today breaking the restrictions (inc. us two). Police seemed to have given up today at least, compared to yesterday when there were a lot of people stopped and plenty of police around. This NW Police fb post and replies from yesterday sums up the state of affairs: https://www.facebook.com/NWPRPU/

I find it impossible to be concerned at any transmission risk from the outdoors activity. The only doubts in my mind are the increased RTA risk and the very tiny minority of winter climbers/hillwalkers getting an injury and needing a call-out, using up resources and risking contact with emergency staff.

I think if/when the daily death-toll rises over 1,000 and stays there for longer than the first peak, then it'll focus a lot of people's minds on thinking about what they want to be publicly seen to be doing, even if it's low risk of transmission.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on January 04, 2021, 11:36:15 am
I'm not remotely convinced the risk of transmission between random hillwalkers justifies these restrictions. However the reality I see out and about is that people are desperate to socialise and quite happy to bend the rules, and even without car sharing there is plenty going on in the great outdoors that could cause transmission. If that is the reason for the restrictions they should state that clearly and enforce breaches though.

Lancashire police seemed to go into over-drive this weekend with their not all that accurate comms. this weekend, mostly aimed at people venturing outside (I'm assuming the snow didn't help their modd). I thought it was fairly understandable when all this kicked off, with all of the changes, that the Police kept getting confused (then there was the NPCC/CPS guidance), less so now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Pantontino on January 04, 2021, 03:03:47 pm
The police have been present around the usual Llanberis/Ogwen mountain valley parking areas but seem tolerant of locals travelling small distances. I did speak to someone though who had driven from Llanberis to Capel to walk up Siabod - as they were putting their boots on a copper pulled up and asked them where they had come from. He said that the distance was too far and if he found them still there when he drove back round he would fine them.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 04, 2021, 08:27:59 pm
So - lockdown 3 in England. Has anything changed for climbing? Seemed to be (on the news channels) a hardening of the stay at home message. No non essential travel etc.. is this back to no travel for exercise?

I’ll go and look on the govt website but if anyone else finds out post up?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gollum on January 04, 2021, 08:32:20 pm
Mrs B has been reading it out, it says you can exercise but should be limited to once a day and you should not travel outside your local area...........however that is defined.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 04, 2021, 08:33:49 pm
So - wording looks much like the first part of lockdown 1

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

Leaving home
You must not leave, or be outside of your home except where necessary. You may leave the home to:

shop for basic necessities, for you or a vulnerable person

go to work, or provide voluntary or charitable services, if you cannot reasonably do so from home

exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

meet your support bubble or childcare bubble where necessary, but only if you are legally permitted to form one

seek medical assistance or avoid injury, illness or risk of harm (including domestic abuse)

attend education or childcare - for those eligible
Colleges, primary and secondary schools will remain open only for vulnerable children and the children of critical workers. All other children will learn remotely until February half term. Early Years settings remain open.

Higher Education provision will remain online until mid February for all except future critical worker courses.

If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live. You may leave your local area for a legally permitted reason, such as for work.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 04, 2021, 08:36:19 pm
Mrs B has been reading it out, it says you can exercise but should be limited to once a day and you should not travel outside your local area...........however that is defined.

If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.

/quote

Refresh my memory - why was there a shift in May that enabled people to travel to exercise? Was a relaxation of the rules - or a reinterpretation? I think it may have been a change - as everyone started going out on one day in May...


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 04, 2021, 08:42:53 pm
It was a change in the rules.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on January 04, 2021, 08:43:15 pm
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gollum on January 04, 2021, 08:44:49 pm
Relaxations started on 10/11 May and the messaging changed from Stay Home to Stay Safe.

I seem to remember initially most people didn’t venture out much.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AJM on January 04, 2021, 08:57:20 pm
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 04, 2021, 08:58:49 pm
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

is that the Anston in Rotherham?

Quote
You should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on January 04, 2021, 09:00:37 pm
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on January 04, 2021, 09:01:17 pm
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

is that the Anston in Rotherham?

Quote
You should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live



Sheffield postcode but I see your point  :-\
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 04, 2021, 09:04:00 pm
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

Key part there is "driving...past". I.e. in your car, not stopping for a sarnie in the local cafe (mainly because you can't now), etc., without being anywhere near anyone else, meaning transmission risk is zero. Which to me makes the "local" and once per day restriction completely disproportionate and unnecessary.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 04, 2021, 09:04:42 pm
Sheffield postcode but I see your point  :-\
80% of the county of Cornwall has a Plymouth post code. Plymouth isn’t even in Cornwall.
When I was growing up, St Tudy where I lived, had a PL30 code. To drive to Plymouth, in those days, took almost two hours...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 04, 2021, 09:07:15 pm
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

Key part there is "driving...past". I.e. in your car, not stopping for a sarnie in the local cafe (mainly because you can't now), etc., without being anywhere near anyone else, meaning transmission risk is zero. Which to me makes the "local" and once per day restriction completely disproportionate and unnecessary.
Don’t try and bring logic into this.

The government have avoided it for nearly a year, they’re not going to start now.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 04, 2021, 09:09:23 pm
It's a tricky one, I did check it on the Gov website last week to confirm if it was still Tier 3 (it was) and have been to Roche today.  But it is 17 miles away...

As Chris say, having a maximum radius would be good to work with
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on January 04, 2021, 09:12:02 pm
Under travel it says:

● outdoor exercise.Thisshouldbedonelocallywherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)

To me that suggests that Eastern Edges are the type of open space they are thinking of
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 04, 2021, 09:13:09 pm
They won't do a radius, and what's been published so far is only guidance anyway, so if they re-use the same legislation (likely) it'll then be up to the interpretation of the police officer who stops you. I'm guessing you're pretty unlikely to be stopped if you're travelling on your own, so feel happy applying my own reason / logic to it; I.e. stay away from everyone else and you're alright no matter how far you're travelling.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on January 04, 2021, 09:13:22 pm
It's a tricky one, I did check it on the Gov website last week to confirm if it was still Tier 3 (it was) and have been to Roche today.  But it is 17 miles away...

As Chris say, having a maximum radius would be good to work with

Ironically I have less concerns going to Stanage now under it being 'local' than I would have done when it involved travelling from a Tier 3 into a Tier 4 area.

Under Tier 3, Stanage was off limits but Meadowhall was open. Go figure.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AJM on January 04, 2021, 09:14:09 pm
I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

I'm which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

In one way I'm entirely with you - I think if they want you to do something then they should put it into law and therefore write something that's plausibly legally enforceable.

In another way though, given it is guidance, I'm not sure there's any way the intent of it could be made more clear without putting a number out there is there?

I phrased my response as a question, but I guess I can't see any way of interpreting that guidance which says it's ok to drive out of your part of your city and potentially through a different part of your city and then some other towns and villages before starting to do your exercise.

From the first bit -

"exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area."

That I could buy as being a bit vague. But when it's finished off with:

"You should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live"

Then that vagueness basically falls away. "Local area" is, for a Sheffielder, "the part of the city where you live"

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 04, 2021, 09:15:03 pm
it's the type of open space absolutely everyone is thinking of at the moment.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 04, 2021, 09:17:29 pm
It's a tricky one, I did check it on the Gov website last week to confirm if it was still Tier 3 (it was) and have been to Roche today.  But it is 17 miles away...

As Chris say, having a maximum radius would be good to work with

Ironically I have less concerns going to Stanage now under it being 'local' than I would have done when it involved travelling from a Tier 3 into a Tier 4 area.

Under Tier 3, Stanage was off limits but Meadowhall was open. Go figure.

True, no longer restricted to S yorks.
Colleagues of my wife were aghast that we stayed in T3 while everyone around went to 4 because they said the T4 folk would travel to Meadowhall to shop.  Did have a bit of a WTAF at that but apparently people would do that
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 04, 2021, 09:20:01 pm
Roaches and ramshaw is without doubt local to me,  I won't go to the churnet though as that's 10 miles and certainly not what I'd call local to myself.
During the 1st lockdown I was stopped by the police at ramshaw and they wanted to know where I was from. When I said leek, they said that's OK. They were around a fair bit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AJM on January 04, 2021, 09:22:38 pm
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

Key part there is "driving...past". I.e. in your car, not stopping for a sarnie in the local cafe (mainly because you can't now), etc., without being anywhere near anyone else, meaning transmission risk is zero. Which to me makes the "local" and once per day restriction completely disproportionate and unnecessary.

I'm not going to argue whether the guidance makes sense or not or whether you want to follow it. I've already had that argument with myself about whether I should ignore the travel restriction guidance to go out bouldering on my own (or rather, with my 3 year old) for exactly those reasons - I don't stop, I don't meet people, I don't go in places etc etc. I don't need to have it with anyone else  ;)

My point was only that I couldn't see any way that it was actually following the guidance i.e approaching it with the mindset that you're ignoring the guidance for reasons xyz rather than that what you're doing is in line with it
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 04, 2021, 09:26:45 pm
Back to the board tomorrow then.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 04, 2021, 09:33:30 pm
Think of the good it did you last time
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Offwidth on January 04, 2021, 09:42:10 pm
The detailed advice:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/949536/NationalLockdownGuidance.pdf
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 04, 2021, 09:57:00 pm
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

Key part there is "driving...past". I.e. in your car, not stopping for a sarnie in the local cafe (mainly because you can't now), etc., without being anywhere near anyone else, meaning transmission risk is zero. Which to me makes the "local" and once per day restriction completely disproportionate and unnecessary.

I'm not going to argue whether the guidance makes sense or not or whether you want to follow it. I've already had that argument with myself about whether I should ignore the travel restriction guidance to go out bouldering on my own (or rather, with my 3 year old) for exactly those reasons - I don't stop, I don't meet people, I don't go in places etc etc. I don't need to have it with anyone else  ;)

My point was only that I couldn't see any way that it was actually following the guidance i.e approaching it with the mindset that you're ignoring the guidance for reasons xyz rather than that what you're doing is in line with it
That logic doesn't take into account people living on or close to the edge of the city.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 04, 2021, 10:02:28 pm
The detailed advice:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/949536/NationalLockdownGuidance.pdf

The advice on travel for exercise there is:
Quote
● outdoor exercise. This should be done locally wherever
possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area

What is your area under the regs? I presume they are these:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/full-list-of-local-restriction-tiers-by-area

So West Yorkshire is one area?


I suspect more clarity will come in the next few days. I'm sure the document that OW linked has been updated since the 8pm announcement.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lurcher on January 04, 2021, 10:04:09 pm
Last week I couldn't go to Sheffield walls as just in Derbyshire T4, if following guidance.  Some walls eg climbing works made that very clear. Fair enough.  I stayed home

OK that was to go inside, but surely if you're in sheffield then using the 'stay local to your area guidance' then 'all the Eastern edges' from sheff is taking the piss.   
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 04, 2021, 10:04:36 pm
The detailed advice:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/949536/NationalLockdownGuidance.pdf

The bit that’s not covered in any of the previously posted quotes

 Public outdoor places include:
● parks,beaches,countrysideaccessibletothepublic,forests ● publicgardens(whetherornotyoupaytoenterthem)
● thegroundsofaheritagesite
● Playgrounds”

Wonder if Nat Trust places will stay open? If so that would be quite a barometer (for me) as to whether we’re in March or May style restrictions (if that makes sense)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: moose on January 04, 2021, 10:08:51 pm
My interpretation is that I can still drive to go climbing, but I'll have to muster keenness for projects at Ilkley Cow & Calf and Rocky Valley (just as well I've plenty to go at... having ignored the crags 1-2 miles from my house until now).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dunnyg on January 04, 2021, 10:16:22 pm
Might see you up there moose (from a distance).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 04, 2021, 10:28:48 pm
surely if you're in sheffield then using the 'stay local to your area guidance' then 'all the Eastern edges' from sheff is taking the piss.   


Depends how you define Easternn edges? Stanage to chatsworth for me, southern areas a separate group. I'd try to stick to Burbages  being closest but it's always rammed recently whereas the plantation and parking (£) can be deserted. So what's best.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Sidehaas on January 04, 2021, 10:31:55 pm
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 04, 2021, 10:37:30 pm
I’m sure in a few days it’ll become apparent what is and isn’t tolerated - in whether or not Derbyshire police decide to drone shame walkers again etc...

But for me for now it’s what Sidehaas said. My nearest rock is 20 miles away... seems pretty clear that’s not local. If it becomes apparent in a few weeks that is fine/tolerated I’ll reconsider.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lurcher on January 04, 2021, 11:05:36 pm
surely if you're in sheffield then using the 'stay local to your area guidance' then 'all the Eastern edges' from sheff is taking the piss.   


Depends how you define Easternn edges? Stanage to chatsworth for me, southern areas a separate group. I'd try to stick to Burbages  being closest but it's always rammed recently whereas the plantation and parking (£) can be deserted. So what's best.

Bell Hagg for 6 weeks for your sins.. .

But seriously I think if Burbage is rammed then it means most people will be ignoring guidance. Although I expect the general busyness will be determined by non climbers as ever.. As others noted a lot will depend I think on what the police do in the peak, if anything - that may have the biggest effect on what folk do ie can I get away with it. ..

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy F on January 04, 2021, 11:06:51 pm
Pex Hill is still within Merseyside. That counts as local for the Scouse boulderers surely?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sxrxg on January 04, 2021, 11:11:19 pm
If you can walk or cycle there Andy I would say you would be ok. If you are coming from Crosby that is half an hour's drive I would probably say not. That is my own personal definition of "local" though. I figure if you are cycling then doing some traverses or low level eliminates and cycling home then that is legitimately all exercise and a valid excuse for being out.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy F on January 04, 2021, 11:14:27 pm
It's not half an hour from Crosby the way I drive...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on January 05, 2021, 06:51:55 am
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.

If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.

The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?

I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.

As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.

As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.

I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Sidehaas on January 05, 2021, 07:28:01 am
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.

If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.

The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?

I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.

As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.

As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.

I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....

The guidance does define local. It says "If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."  That ambiguity has been removed.

Outdoor gym equipment is being closed again. I agree there has to be some sense added and if someone needs a quick rest on a park bench that's presumably ok. But I don't see how you can argue it's ok if the majority of time spent outside is actually resting rather than exercising.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on January 05, 2021, 07:42:37 am
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.

If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.

The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?

I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.

As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.

As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.

I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....

The guidance does define local. It says "If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."  That ambiguity has been removed.

Link?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: twoshoes on January 05, 2021, 07:47:18 am
The stuff Sidehaas is referring to is in the document Offwidth linked to on the previous page.

Edit - ok, the direct quote isn't, although it is in a slightly different phase. Dunno where his quote came from.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Sidehaas on January 05, 2021, 07:49:45 am
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

(The bit about town, village etc is in the first section on leaving home.)

Edit to say, this is also where Offwidths pdf came from, but I think they've removed the pdf now that the website has been fully updated.

Ps. Apologies if I came across a bit overbearing. Just trying to be helpful, even if the message is one we don't like.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 07:56:12 am
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.

If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.

The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?

I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.

As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.

As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.

I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....

The guidance does define local. It says "If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."  That ambiguity has been removed.

Outdoor gym equipment is being closed again. I agree there has to be some sense added and if someone needs a quick rest on a park bench that's presumably ok. But I don't see how you can argue it's ok if the majority of time spent outside is actually resting rather than exercising.

I’ve now a vision of the police crawling along next to a jogger - leaning out of the window with a megaphone shouting come on - no resting -  £200 fine... a bit like Rockys trainer cycling next to him heckling away :D
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 05, 2021, 08:16:26 am
Personally I’m (like others) just going to leave it a week and see what police enforcement looks like. I really don’t see any justification for stopping me going bouldering but I would have to drive a distance to do it.

Dave
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 05, 2021, 08:30:34 am
Personally I’m (like others) just going to leave it a week and see what police enforcement looks like. I really don’t see any justification for stopping me going bouldering but I would have to drive a distance to do it.

Dave

This is basically my plan as well. I think I will struggle to abstain if I see the Peak full of Sheffield and Manc residents.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sxrxg on January 05, 2021, 12:33:20 pm
If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.

I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 05, 2021, 01:49:39 pm
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-stay-at-home-guidance/

Quote
local outdoor recreation, sport or exercise, walking, cycling, golf, or running that starts and finishes at the same place (which can be up to 5 miles from the boundary of your local authority area) as long as you abide by the rules on meeting other households

This is the Scotland guidance, which leaves a load to interpretation; my local authority area is "Aberdeenshire", which stretches as far as Braemar (and includes a lot of mountains, as well as Glenshee and the Lecht (which are currently closed)). and down to Montrose. the 5 miles is meant to give city dwellers the opportunity to get out the city if they need to, but I expect people will use this allowance to the maximum extent. The local authority classed as "Highlands" is even bigger!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 05, 2021, 03:46:58 pm
I wonder if my local authority is the ‘North West of England’? :-\
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 05, 2021, 04:09:27 pm
Irrelevant m'lud. These are local rule for local people.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:16:14 pm
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 05, 2021, 04:17:03 pm
If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.

I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...
I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 05, 2021, 04:17:30 pm
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Didn't they hide that bit last time??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 05, 2021, 04:23:36 pm
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 05, 2021, 04:25:15 pm
I agree with Bonjoy. I have personally tried to be sensible and follow the law. I didn’t climb in the first lockdown in March but I really can’t see what risk I provide to transmission and the NHS by doing some low ball traverses that keep me sane. I find the NHS argument as convincing now as when anyone rolls out the argument about the burden on mountain rescue teams or hospitals in normal times from climbing or walking.

So, I can’t see myself heading for the sketchy highballs anytime soon (or ever for that matter) but will probably head out for some lowball traverses and boulders at some point.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:34:25 pm
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).

Nope - that's entirely your presumption.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:43:04 pm
The BMC have published some guidance - the link is below - but it really just copy pastes the government guidelines. No real steer at all. Nothing new from what has been discussed earlier in this thread

https://thebmc.co.uk/covid19-latest-national-lockdown-in-england

It states that climbing is not banned in the guidelines, and repeats the definition of where you can go.

Quote
Outdoor exercise should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area, defined as “the village, town, or part of the city where you live”.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 05, 2021, 05:00:19 pm
If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.

I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...
I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.

100% agree.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: twoshoes on January 05, 2021, 05:13:10 pm
If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.

I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...
I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.

There is perhaps an argument that there more people go out an carry out said riskless sanity saving activies, the more foot and vehical traffic there is, the more normal day to day life then appears and the more our perception of risk drops. Then more people believe it's ok for them to go and carry out their riskless sanity saving activity, which isn't perhaps now quite as safe because lots of people are doing it too (or decide it's not fair that some are out and they aren't and decide to go out too, as evidenced on this thread) and so on.

This isn't to say that I don't agree that the transmission risk in climbing is low and the mental and physical benefits are high. I'm lucky enough to have a crag 2 minutes from home, so may well be out. This is just an argument I've been having with myself that perhaps RSSAs aren't as safe as they appear. But it's a very hypothetical one...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 05, 2021, 05:34:09 pm
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).

Nope - that's entirely your presumption.

So why have a go at them? Climbing is allowed, given certain restrictions.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 05, 2021, 05:41:00 pm
There is perhaps an argument that there more people go out an carry out said riskless sanity saving activies, the more foot and vehical traffic there is, the more normal day to day life then appears and the more our perception of risk drops. Then more people believe it's ok for them to go and carry out their riskless sanity saving activity, which isn't perhaps now quite as safe because lots of people are doing it too (or decide it's not fair that some are out and they aren't and decide to go out too, as evidenced on this thread) and so on.

This isn't to say that I don't agree that the transmission risk in climbing is low and the mental and physical benefits are high. I'm lucky enough to have a crag 2 minutes from home, so may well be out. This is just an argument I've been having with myself that perhaps RSSAs aren't as safe as they appear. But it's a very hypothetical one...

I really can't see that happening, fundamentally because the actual risky activities WRT to Covid transmission are (in no particular order):

1. Visiting family (banned)
2. Going to the pub (banned)
3. Going to work (banned for most people)
4. Kids in school (banned)
5. Going shopping (banned for all but essential stuff)
6. Spending lots of time indoors with people you don't live with (banned(? Can't think of anything that's still allowed...)
7. Large gatherings (banned)

Sure I've missed a few things, but you get the point. Ultimately it means that even if there was some perception of normality, which might lead you to return to normal activities, you can't do any of those normal activities.

That argument also only makes sense if the activity (climbing outside on your own) is  transmission risk. Which it isn't. So even if loads of people were doing it, it still wouldn't drive up infection rates.

My suspicion is that they've only put limits on exercise outdoors because it's easy to scapegoat people for it, because it's more visible. For example people getting stuck in the Peak in the snow, or walking up Snowdon; easy to call out, meanwhile people are crammed into shopping centres!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 05, 2021, 05:49:04 pm
Quote
3. Going to work (banned for most people)

Would like to see some stats on this. I'd be very surprised if 'most people' is anything like 50% of the working population.

Reading the guidance, the idea there any sort of distinction between recreation and exercise is laughable. You might be able to come up with extremes that sort of only fall into one category (a picnic), but the vast majority are both. Even any definition of one activity would depend on who is doing it and why. I can't see police attempting to enforce any grey areas.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: twoshoes on January 05, 2021, 05:56:04 pm
There is perhaps an argument that there more people go out an carry out said riskless sanity saving activies, the more foot and vehical traffic there is, the more normal day to day life then appears and the more our perception of risk drops. Then more people believe it's ok for them to go and carry out their riskless sanity saving activity, which isn't perhaps now quite as safe because lots of people are doing it too (or decide it's not fair that some are out and they aren't and decide to go out too, as evidenced on this thread) and so on.

This isn't to say that I don't agree that the transmission risk in climbing is low and the mental and physical benefits are high. I'm lucky enough to have a crag 2 minutes from home, so may well be out. This is just an argument I've been having with myself that perhaps RSSAs aren't as safe as they appear. But it's a very hypothetical one...

I really can't see that happening, fundamentally because the actual risky activities WRT to Covid transmission are (in no particular order):

1. Visiting family (banned)
2. Going to the pub (banned)
3. Going to work (banned for most people)
4. Kids in school (banned)
5. Going shopping (banned for all but essential stuff)
6. Spending lots of time indoors with people you don't live with (banned(? Can't think of anything that's still allowed...)
7. Large gatherings (banned)

Sure I've missed a few things, but you get the point. Ultimately it means that even if there was some perception of normality, which might lead you to return to normal activities, you can't do any of those normal activities.

That argument also only makes sense if the activity (climbing outside on your own) is  transmission risk. Which it isn't. So even if loads of people were doing it, it still wouldn't drive up infection rates.

My suspicion is that they've only put limits on exercise outdoors because it's easy to scapegoat people for it, because it's more visible. For example people getting stuck in the Peak in the snow, or walking up Snowdon; easy to call out, meanwhile people are crammed into shopping centres!

I get your point, but I don't agree. People meeting family and friends indoors may be banned but absolutely still happened through the previous shutdowns. (I certainly know people who did so.) There were also people going into offices unecessarily. And if the news is to be believed then large gatherings were being broken up by the police. The more 'normal' and busy the outside world appears, the more people are going to continue justifying these things to themselves.

I do completely accept this a hypothetical argument. But I'm not convinced that because an activity has a very low risk of covid transmission it's necesssarily 'safe'. I won't, however, be criticising anyone's choice to climb and may well do so myself, as I said.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 06:08:44 pm
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).

Nope - that's entirely your presumption.

So why have a go at them? Climbing is allowed, given certain restrictions.

Hi Will - please don’t assume I’m having a go - im just Im just stating the obvious.

That either they don’t care if people see their logbook updates (which could be that they don’t give a shit - or that they think what they are doing is right - that’s up to them) or they don’t know that people can see the updates. (My op could have had can see after the first don’t care - but it said it after the second don’t see - anyway that’s what I meant!)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on January 05, 2021, 06:16:10 pm
Or, if we are obliquely referring to people travelling from England to N Wales to go bouldering, perhaps they don’t realise it’s against the law.

Which would be a bit dumb of them.

Seriously though, regardless of whether you think your plans fit the guidelines, or if you just choose to ignore them as they are only guidelines, can we agree that posting stuff on social media or your logbooks is just going to be annoying for everyone?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 05, 2021, 06:23:00 pm
Quote
3. Going to work (banned for most people)

Would like to see some stats on this. I'd be very surprised if 'most people' is anything like 50% of the working population.

Yes you're quite right, typed quickly without thinking. I don't think that changes the point I was making though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 05, 2021, 06:28:17 pm
The BMC have published some guidance - the link is below - but it really just copy pastes the government guidelines. No real steer at all. Nothing new from what has been discussed earlier in this thread

No new legislation had been published when the article was written so there was literally nothing else to go on. I see they have been published in the last hour (I've not yet had chance to read them).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 05, 2021, 06:33:09 pm
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).

Nope - that's entirely your presumption.

So why have a go at them? Climbing is allowed, given certain restrictions.

Hi Will - please don’t assume I’m having a go - im just Im just stating the obvious.

That either they don’t care if people see their logbook updates (which could be that they don’t give a shit - or that they think what they are doing is right - that’s up to them) or they don’t know that people can see the updates. (My op could have had can see after the first don’t care - but it said it after the second don’t see - anyway that’s what I meant!)

I'm still not clear as to why people shouldn't log their ticks on UKC or whatever. I never really bought the solidarity argument before. The circumstances of having young children means that I can't take climbing trips abroad and can only rarely go away for the weekend to mountain/sea cliff areas. My friends can (lockdown notwithstanding) and are often making plans or posting about their trips in common group chats that I'm a part of. I don't begrudge them that and I certainly don't give in to simple reactionary jealousy.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 05, 2021, 06:39:55 pm
The BMC have published some guidance - the link is below - but it really just copy pastes the government guidelines. No real steer at all. Nothing new from what has been discussed earlier in this thread

No new legislation had been published when the article was written so there was literally nothing else to go on. I see they have been published in the last hour (I've not yet had chance to read them).

Located here if anyone wants to read:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/made

Or rather that's the amending legislation which needs to be read in conjunction with the previously existing tiers based legislation that came into force in December.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: largeruk on January 05, 2021, 07:09:49 pm
No new legislation had been published when the article was written so there was literally nothing else to go on. I see they have been published in the last hour (I've not yet had chance to read them).

Located here if anyone wants to read:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/made

Or rather that's the amending legislation which needs to be read in conjunction with the previously existing tiers based legislation that came into force in December.

The last sentence of the "Explanatory Note" at the end: "No impact assessment has been prepared for these Regulations."  :???:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 07:14:18 pm
Or, if we are obliquely referring to people travelling from England to N Wales to go bouldering, perhaps they don’t realise it’s against the law.

Which would be a bit dumb of them.

Seriously though, regardless of whether you think your plans fit the guidelines, or if you just choose to ignore them as they are only guidelines, can we agree that posting stuff on social media or your logbooks is just going to be annoying for everyone?

I wasn’t referring to anyone - but yes - your last point is right to me. Will - I’ve no idea where you’re coming from. Probably best we leave it at that?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 05, 2021, 07:22:10 pm
The solidarity aspect is a thing whether you accept it or not though Will. Humans don't act like atoms, it's not a case of "giving in" to emotions. Even if you feel you aren't susceptible to it in a climbing sense, you will be in other aspects of life. However that element has been done to death back in March and isn't hugely relevant here as the circs are different and the attitude of climbers and the BMC is different.

That said, me, Bradders and Davo (probably loads of others) are living proof that the solidarity aspect carries some weight. I didn't climb in April and adhered very closely to the rules. Since then any semblance of a national effort is gone and compliance is rock bottom. I just went to the shop and the amount of mask absenteeism was unbelievable. Obviously n=1 but when I look at that, the numerous NYE parties happening in my road, government inadequacy, my strong suspicion that this is not going to be "done" in February or even March, then I increasingly come to the conclusion that driving an hour to go bouldering is nothing. I don't know, but the thought of not going out for months again is not a good one right now!  As such I think we are actually on the same page mostly, I just think the behavioural /psychological aspect is hugely relevant.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 05, 2021, 07:23:27 pm
I'm having trouble working out what I think about recreation at the moment. Which is what climbing is - nobody should deceive themselves that climbing is essential exercise. Climbing, skiing, hillwalking, golf, jet skiing, horse-riding, fishing, swimming, etc. are outdoor recreation.

Going out the door for a walk or a run to stop bodies and minds deteriorating are essential exercise. Working on your outdoor projs so you hit the spring season going well is not. Tiny added risk of transmission etc. and I can't take seriously anyone arguing about the risk of transmission from bouldering or routes within a household partenrship.
 
But still something about the attitude among people jars with me more this time around than it did in March. Maybe it's just that I suspected most people were obeying the restrictions in March and this time I suspect there isn't the same level of compliance, despite the risk of overwhelming the NHS being higher now than in March due to the new variant.

What would all the middle-class climbing snobs say if all the chavs they look down their noses at were en-masse jet-skiing and quad biking (yep, stereotyping)..? In terms of call-out risk I think they'd be about ball-park with going climbing and hillwalking.. certainly would be with the hordes currently out skiing in Snowdonia. Since when was ski-touring a low risk activity in terms of placing demand on the health service? But hundreds of people currently deem it to be OK. I bet a lot of them would look down their noses at someone going out motorcross riding.

The relative risk of going out climbing makes sense to me as it did in March, but the solidarity argument feels stronger to me this time around, maybe because there's less of it! I was all for going out locally to boulder then (still am), but I feel conflicted about how many are flouting the rules to go into the mountains.
 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 05, 2021, 07:25:24 pm
Interesting post Pete, particularly in the sense that our respective views on the solidarity aspect have reversed since March!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 05, 2021, 07:28:41 pm
Yep. Just read your post and chuckled that we've reversed!

I think I'm maybe a bad example - I'm quite contrarian (hopefully not to the point of being a reckless twat). It feels to me now that compliance is much less common than in March. Perhaps I thought I wasn't making any difference in March because most were complying with the new scary thing. Now they're not, yet I think the relative risk is higher this time.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 05, 2021, 07:34:40 pm
Whether the exercise of essential or not is immaterial. With the exception of, I think, shopping, there is no distinction in this guidance between those activities which are essential or non-essential, only between those which are reasonable and unreasonable.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on January 05, 2021, 07:36:43 pm
FWIW Pete in your position I would be getting out climbing.

The line between recreation and exercise is clearly blurry, but given the minimal risk involved it seems fine to me to take a loose definition of exercise.

Funny what you say that you have no sympathy with the transmission argument - it must be a difference in perspective. When I’ve been out at the crag I’ve seen plenty of examples of behaviour that would constitute a transmission risk - e.g groups of 10+ closely packed at the bottom of a single problem for hours.

However I suspect most people who are wavering about climbing or not are not the types who will indulge in such behaviour!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 05, 2021, 07:37:28 pm

The relative risk of going out climbing makes sense to me as it did in March, but the solidarity argument feels stronger to me this time around, maybe because there's less of it! I was all for going out locally to boulder then (still am), but I feel conflicted about how many are flouting the rules to go into the mountains.
 

because if collectively, we don't all pull together and restrict ourselves, we're jiggered?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 05, 2021, 07:37:40 pm
Whether the exercise of essential or not is immaterial. With the exception of, I think, shopping, there is no distinction in this guidance between those activities which are essential or non-essential, only between those which are reasonable and unreasonable.
I know.

It's immaterial in the legislation (I think, I haven't read in detail whether they define exercise versus recreation - Ru?).

It isn't immaterial from the solidarity argument. Is it.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 07:43:47 pm
The guidelines make a distinction between exercise (allowed) and leisure (not allowed).....

The line as you point out rightly Pete is blurry between the two...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 05, 2021, 07:44:10 pm
See my earlier point about definitions - it's impossible. For instance there was a suggestion among birdwatchers first time around that taking your binoculars on your daily walk was an outrageous transgression of the spirit of the rules. I really thought we'd moved on from the idea that a bit of simple exercise is all you need for physical health and mental health be damned.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 05, 2021, 07:44:16 pm
FWIW Pete in your position I would be getting out climbing.

The line between recreation and exercise is clearly blurry, but given the minimal risk involved it seems fine to me to take a loose definition of exercise.

Funny what you say that you have no sympathy with the transmission argument - it must be a difference in perspective. When I’ve been out at the crag I’ve seen plenty of examples of behaviour that would constitute a transmission risk - e.g groups of 10+ closely packed at the bottom of a single problem for hours.

However I suspect most people who are wavering about climbing or not are not the types who will indulge in such behaviour!

I think that's something that happens more in the Peak than anywhere else. Parisellas maybe one of very few venues in Wales I can think of that may have groups in close vicinity (but 10+ would be highly unusual at the moment). 

I'm up for bouldering, and simple cragging with my partner. As for going into the mountains to mixed climb or ski, I can't help compare to how people would view jet-skiing, motorcross, cross country horse-riding, downhill mtn biking etc. etc. in risk terms.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 05, 2021, 07:47:43 pm
Pete, I know you're in Wales but not in the right place to be allowed to go into the mountains? I have to say, given your posts earlier in the year, the idea you don't approve of others doing so from their door isn't a great look. But you are a committed contrarian, I'll grant you that.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cheque on January 05, 2021, 07:49:07 pm
Let’s not forget that this lockdown is taking place in winter, in Britain. No matter what stance we each take on climbing it’ll be a moot point most of the time because the rock will be wet anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 05, 2021, 07:54:15 pm
Pete, I know you're in Wales but not in the right place to be allowed to go into the mountains? I have to say, given your posts earlier in the year, the idea you don't approve of others doing so from their door isn't a great look. But you are a committed contrarian, I'll grant you that.

Hold your horses Adam. I'm not against people walking out of their door and skinning up the Carneddau or Snowdon for a ski. That number is about 20 people who live in Bethesda and Beris if I'm being generous. There are loads of people travelling in to go skiing - I'm unsure how I feel about this. I'm far from a judgemental type though, just expressing that I feel conflicted, because at this time when a sense of some solidarity 'might' be important - not least for your mental health that you're so concerned about, we have a lack of it. It's well known that shared hardship is better endured (it's how armies get through), I thought as a card-carrying communist you'd be up on that ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on January 05, 2021, 07:56:57 pm
But you are a committed contrarian, I'll grant you that.

It is amazing the Pete fits in his advocacy work for Satan alongside all his other interests 😄
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Sidehaas on January 05, 2021, 08:03:26 pm
Whether the exercise of essential or not is immaterial. With the exception of, I think, shopping, there is no distinction in this guidance between those activities which are essential or non-essential, only between those which are reasonable and unreasonable.

In the law, for exercise to be a reasonable excuse for being outside your home, it also has to be reasonably necessary. That's not quite the same as essential, but it's not nothing either. There definitely has to be a need .
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 05, 2021, 08:05:28 pm
Ok fair enough Pete. I have to say I don't at all mind people skiing (apart from the mad jealousy) but I'm not sure I'd be spraying it on the socials given the context.

I'm not really convinced there is much solidarity for taking an unnecessarily hard line on recreation restrictions, nor a net mental health benefit once shaming those who don't toe the line is accounted for.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 05, 2021, 08:21:44 pm
I'm not judgmental of people, I'm just surprised at attitudes. Given the propensity for lower-leg injuries in skiing (look it up if you need to) - and especially skiing Welsh powder with hidden rocks lurking beneath a shallow base - I'm a bit surprised at people's attitudes to it in the current context. I think it has a lot to do with the novelty of decent snow in Wales clouding judgement of relative risks.

I'm fairly certain many of the same people would look on with displeasure at downhill mtn bikers risking broken limbs.. Or of me going out and doing a new grade IX winter FA.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wil on January 05, 2021, 10:35:04 pm
Interesting to see that The Scotsman have written a piece defending keeping Scottish golf courses open (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/why-praise-due-scottish-golf-courses-being-allowed-stay-open-3085676%3famp).

Quote
You would really have to have been out on a golf course yourself in the Covid world, though, to see that the sport provides one of the safest environments you could probably find at the moment and also an important outlet from a mental perspective to people of all ages but the older generation in particular.

I'm not sure we'll see the same for low-level hill walking, although it's the travel that's the issue for that. I count myself lucky to have Arthur's Seat and the Pentlands close enough to access.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 06, 2021, 12:00:56 am
Have you got desperate enough to boulder at Arthur's Seat yet?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Anti on January 06, 2021, 05:35:25 am
Let’s not forget that this lockdown is taking place in winter, in Britain. No matter what stance we each take on climbing it’ll be a moot point most of the time because the rock will be wet anyway.

Despite multiple, frequent attempts to use my two days a week furlough to break the law with some bouldering I've been fantastically shut down by the weather. When it's been clear and dry there's been snow on top of everything. When the snow melted there's been no wind to dry out the rock. When the wind came it brought the rain with it.

I ought to start cycling again. Just kidding.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 06, 2021, 06:19:44 am
I watched a hill walking program on TV last night and enjoyed it.

help me
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 06, 2021, 07:54:22 am
Give it a try (when the guidance allows). You’ll soon be cured.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 06, 2021, 08:00:36 am
Take a couple of the kids, walk til they get moany and hangry. That'll cure you for sure.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 06, 2021, 08:24:58 am
The weather is stopping climbing, not Boris.
I cannot remember the last morning I opened the curtains and thought " yes, what time shall I go climbing"
It's snowing now in leek and white over from last night.

The getting injured side of the argument for not climbing has never really concerned me, as the chance is very low and if you did need hospital help. You are totally separate from the covid areas. The accident side of hospitals isn't under the stress the covid parts are. Although not wanting to get injured is a personal desire.

We will know more as the new guidance beds in. Staffs police do like chasing covidiots and hunt sabs.  Anyone seen the video of staffs police making up fake crimes to search and question the sabs in Longnor?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 06, 2021, 08:28:41 am
No, do you have a link? Interesting that, given hunting is illegal and protest isn’t.

Not sure about the distinction between Covid safe and unsafe areas in hospital tbh. I think it’s pretty much all hands on deck right now, and will get worse before it gets better.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: RobK on January 06, 2021, 08:46:09 am
The getting injured side of the argument for not climbing has never really concerned me, as the chance is very low and if you did need hospital help. You are totally separate from the covid areas. The accident side of hospitals isn't under the stress the covid parts are. Although not wanting to get injured is a personal desire.

I still don't really know where I stand on the whole climbing during lockdown thing. However I can tell you that this is absolutely not true. For context, my partner is an A&E doctor. Where do you think all the covid patients go when they are first admitted? That's right, A&E. They are currently under far more strain than during the first lockdown and it is impacting their levels of care across the board. I don't want to go into specific details but they are having to make some pretty uncomfortable decisions right now. And if for any reason you are needed to be admitted, even for a short period of time, at the current >100% capacity levels, it has potentially fatal consequences for someone else.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 06, 2021, 08:51:34 am
Waiting times for ambulances are increasing*.
I won't be doing anything that increases my chance of needing one.

*(In Sheffield)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 06, 2021, 08:56:57 am
No, do you have a link? Interesting that, given hunting is illegal and protest isn’t.

Not sure about the distinction between Covid safe and unsafe areas in hospital tbh. I think it’s pretty much all hands on deck right now, and will get worse before it gets better.

https://www.facebook.com/376472612370010/posts/4203219143028652/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: dr_botnik on January 06, 2021, 09:51:49 am
No, do you have a link? Interesting that, given hunting is illegal and protest isn’t.

Not sure about the distinction between Covid safe and unsafe areas in hospital tbh. I think it’s pretty much all hands on deck right now, and will get worse before it gets better.

https://www.facebook.com/376472612370010/posts/4203219143028652/

I was so glad that this related to the hunt sabs and wasn't that link to video of "empty hospital wards" that had been filmed by some of the antimask brigade. In an outpatients department. On a weekend.

Getting back on topic: i bought a microtraxion and a static rope after the first lockdown just incase but i assumed the "meeting one other outside for exercise" meant roped stuff was fair game? ( https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home )
It's certainly felt busier on the roads this time around, but i just put that down to people getting things sorted after a haphazard announcement. Will we reach the same levels of fidelity as we did last march? I'm certainly ready to consider climbing burbage valley or even further afield this time around
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 06, 2021, 09:55:16 am
The weather is stopping climbing, not Boris.
I cannot remember the last morning I opened the curtains and thought " yes, what time shall I go climbing"
It's snowing now in leek and white over from last night.

Strangely, we have no snow whatsoever in coastal Aberdeenshire. It's a clear frosty morning, expect conditions will be mint by midday, oh to be unemployed again. Might walk down to the coast and boulder for an hour at lunch. Grab it while I can, home schooling starts next week :(
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 06, 2021, 10:10:42 am
No, do you have a link? Interesting that, given hunting is illegal and protest isn’t.

Not sure about the distinction between Covid safe and unsafe areas in hospital tbh. I think it’s pretty much all hands on deck right now, and will get worse before it gets better.

https://www.facebook.com/376472612370010/posts/4203219143028652/

I was so glad that this related to the hunt sabs and wasn't that link to video of "empty hospital wards" that had been filmed by some of the antimask brigade. In an outpatients department. On a weekend.

Getting back on topic: i bought a microtraxion and a static rope after the first lockdown just incase but i assumed the "meeting one other outside for exercise" meant roped stuff was fair game? ( https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home )
It's certainly felt busier on the roads this time around, but i just put that down to people getting things sorted after a haphazard announcement. Will we reach the same levels of fidelity as we did last march? I'm certainly ready to consider climbing burbage valley or even further afield this time around

Oh no I fully understand what a mess we are in. I joined a fb group called empty hospitals or something yesterday. I really got them wound up. My phone nearly melted with the pings from replies. I lasted about 2 hours before I got blocked.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 06, 2021, 11:08:08 am
The new amendment regs have been been published but as yet there is no official consolidated version online (although they are due today). After a quick look though them it looks as though there is no longer an exception to the restriction on leaving your home for the purposes of outdoor recreation. This leaves the exception for reasonably necessary outdoor exercise. So we're back to the original question from the first lockdown of whether climbing is "reasonably necessary exercise."
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 06, 2021, 11:29:35 am
Assume that's England only Ru?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 06, 2021, 12:00:20 pm
You might be able to come up with extremes that sort of only fall into one category (a picnic), but the vast majority are both.

Fishing? clearly recreation, but not really exercise?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 06, 2021, 12:01:13 pm
These are actually the new Tier 4 regs for the UK. Bit unclear what's happened to be honest and I'm trying to juggle reading the regs, doing some work and home schooling.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: AJM on January 06, 2021, 12:28:02 pm
These are actually the new Tier 4 regs for the UK. Bit unclear what's happened to be honest and I'm trying to juggle reading the regs, doing some work and home schooling.

The amendment file says at the bottom of p4:

for the words in part 3 (tier 4 area) substitute:
“Every area of England, apart from the territorial waters adjacent to England and the
airspace above England and those territorial waters, is within the Tier 4 area.”.

I'm not in any way a lawyer but from an uninformed standpoint that might be the key which allows this UK wide legislation to be relevant only for England?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 06, 2021, 12:35:21 pm
You might be able to come up with extremes that sort of only fall into one category (a picnic), but the vast majority are both.

Fishing? clearly recreation, but not really exercise?

Statement from the Angling Trust on the national lockdown rules
UPDATE – January 5, 2021

Whilst the regulations have not yet been published we have been informed this evening by the Cabinet Office that the Government have taken the decision that fishing in England will not be permitted during this national lockdown period. Whilst this is disappointing news I would ask anglers, fisheries and clubs to respect these rules and the reason they have been put in place; to help save lives and support the NHS.

Individuals should not go fishing from midnight tonight (5th January) and clubs and fisheries should close their waters to anglers.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Loafer007 on January 06, 2021, 12:49:50 pm
Under travel it says:

● outdoor exercise.This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)

To me that suggests that Eastern Edges are the type of open space they are thinking of

This to me, would mean that driving a short distance (<10 miles) to access open space in the peaks is probably considered OK. Whether that is for climbing, running or walking.

That was the legislation/guidance that changed during the first lockdown that allowed everyone to climb again.

Wasn't this the same legislation/guidance for the November lockdown? Seems to me that the only difference is schools are closed. No one stopped climbing/walking/running in the peaks last time and no one was fined for it.

It's a 20 min drive for me to take my son to nursery/work (Uni in laboratory) and 5 min and 7 min to Gardoms and Burbage, respectively, so my conscience is clean with respect to local. I'll only be climbing on my own and certainly not shouting about it. I'll also try and avoid busier times (whatever they are now).

If the police question me, I will be honest. If they say that is not allowed, then I know where I stand. I doubt they will fine for that as a first offence and given the obvious grey area around this..... However they may take a more hardline stance on someone travelling from 40,50-80 miles away.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 06, 2021, 12:50:17 pm
The amendment file says at the bottom of p4:

for the words in part 3 (tier 4 area) substitute:
“Every area of England, apart from the territorial waters adjacent to England and the
airspace above England and those territorial waters, is within the Tier 4 area.”.

I'm not in any way a lawyer but from an uninformed standpoint that might be the key which allows this UK wide legislation to be relevant only for England?

Yes that’s right. I was meaning that it’s unclear if this is a stop gap until further lockdown regs can be published after parliament has voted on them (today)? It may be that any further regs don’t have much different in them, or it may not.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 06, 2021, 01:16:25 pm
You might be able to come up with extremes that sort of only fall into one category (a picnic), but the vast majority are both.

Fishing? clearly recreation, but not really exercise?

Statement from the Angling Trust on the national lockdown rules
UPDATE – January 5, 2021

Whilst the regulations have not yet been published we have been informed this evening by the Cabinet Office that the Government have taken the decision that fishing in England will not be permitted during this national lockdown period. Whilst this is disappointing news I would ask anglers, fisheries and clubs to respect these rules and the reason they have been put in place; to help save lives and support the NHS.

Individuals should not go fishing from midnight tonight (5th January) and clubs and fisheries should close their waters to anglers.

Interesting to see what they come up with up here...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: A Jooser on January 07, 2021, 12:41:04 am
The new amendment regs have been been published but as yet there is no official consolidated version online (although they are due today). After a quick look though them it looks as though there is no longer an exception to the restriction on leaving your home for the purposes of outdoor recreation. This leaves the exception for reasonably necessary outdoor exercise. So we're back to the original question from the first lockdown of whether climbing is "reasonably necessary exercise."

I believe this is the latest consolidated version of the regulations...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A)

And the College of Policing / National Police Chiefs' Council briefing (https://paas-s3-broker-prod-lon-6453d964-1d1a-432a-9260-5e0ba7d2fc51.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/2021-01/COVID-19-briefing-Tier-4-Health-Protection-Regs-060120.pdf)

There's an interesting Twitter thread from human rights barrister Adam Wagner looking at the revised regs here (https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1346513665193873412). In this tweet (https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1346524812131389440) he states: "here's what's not in the law which is in the guidance:
"- Time limit on outdoor exercise;
"- Geographical limit on outdoor exercise
"- Travel between areas."

From reading the regulations I'm not sure the outdoor exercise must be 'reasonably necessary'; rather it is 'reasonably necessary...' 'to take exercise outside'. To me it seems this exercise (rock climbing is my personal preference) can be done alone, or with one other person; there is no limit to the time one can be out exercising, or how many forms of exercise one does when outdoors; and travel to exercise (any distance but presumably only within England) is not restricted. I'm not a lawyer, so please no one trust me here it's just my layman's opinion on reading it. I'm keen to hear Ru's thoughts on this.

As with the first lockdown, I think the 'guidance' doesn't appear to be fully reflected in the actual legislation. I'm also sure anyone who doesn't 'stay at home' runs the risk of getting slapped with a £200 fine from a copper regardless of what's lawful.

The Government's guidance on exercise (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#exercising) has also been updated now, with the addition of the following: "If you (or a person in your care) have a health condition that routinely requires you to leave home to maintain your health - including if that involves travel beyond your local area or exercising several times a day - then you can do so."
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 07, 2021, 09:35:39 am
From reading the regulations I'm not sure the outdoor exercise must be 'reasonably necessary'; rather it is 'reasonably necessary...' 'to take exercise outside'. To me it seems this exercise (rock climbing is my personal preference) can be done alone, or with one other person; there is no limit to the time one can be out exercising, or how many forms of exercise one does when outdoors; and travel to exercise (any distance but presumably only within England) is not restricted. I'm not a lawyer, so please no one trust me here it's just my layman's opinion on reading it. I'm keen to hear Ru's thoughts on this.

As with the first lockdown, I think the 'guidance' doesn't appear to be fully reflected in the actual legislation. I'm also sure anyone who doesn't 'stay at home' runs the risk of getting slapped with a £200 fine from a copper regardless of what's lawful.

I think the section is just as vaguely drafted as it was the first time around. You're right in that the exact wording refers to it being reasonably necessary to exercise, rather than the activity being reasonably necessary, but in practice I do not think this would be the way it was interpreted. If that was the intended meaning, technically you could leave your house and do anything so long as exercise was reasonably necessary. The gov has made it clear that fishing is not allowed for example, so there clearly is intended to be some sort of sliding scale about what counts as exercise and what is a disallowed recreation. Regardless of the exact meaning of the law, the reality is that climbing is likely to be allowed as a form of exercise unless you're stretching reasonableness in terms of distance travelled, hanging about rather than actually climbing, climbing in groups that "just happened" to be at the same crag etc. Distance from home is not legally limited, but the further you go, the less it may seem reasonable, although you would probably just be asked to go home rather than fined.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 07, 2021, 10:37:37 am
Is the BMC covid group still active Ru? I've not had any emails since Nov.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 07, 2021, 11:14:06 am
Is the BMC covid group still active Ru? I've not had any emails since Nov.

Yes, I’ll ask to get you added back in if you have dropped off in error l.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 07, 2021, 11:30:25 am
BMC HQ on Burton Road has looked completely closed (unsurprisingly) since Tuesday... if that helps explain any silence...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 07, 2021, 11:48:08 am
seems fishing is one of "several individual outdoor activities" that is to be allowed after all.

So bouldering should be fine. You'd hope.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on January 07, 2021, 11:50:55 am
Where have you heard fishing is allowed. Not according to official lines yesterday.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 07, 2021, 11:53:56 am
see Nai's post of 12:35 yesterday.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 07, 2021, 11:57:26 am
Where have you heard fishing is allowed. Not according to official lines yesterday.

They seem to have changed their minds again. This has been taken down but it is the statement from the Angling Trust 2 days ago:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Br-i-I8dSHsJ:https://anglingtrust.net/2021/01/05/statement-on-the-new-lockdown-restrictions-in-england/+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Br-i-I8dSHsJ:https://anglingtrust.net/2021/01/05/statement-on-the-new-lockdown-restrictions-in-england/+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 07, 2021, 11:59:16 am
Where have you heard fishing is allowed. Not according to official lines yesterday.

Angling times report that angling trust have successfully lobbied government. Official announcement expected today.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on January 07, 2021, 12:01:32 pm
'mon the  :fishing: :fishing: :fishing:

(I have no useful contribution, I just wanted to use that smiley. MRT will be frothing at the halos if some silly sod falls through the ice on a frozen fishing lake and has to be rescued though).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 07, 2021, 12:17:38 pm
Potentially leaves a lot of " but if" questions about a lot of other activities in that case.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 07, 2021, 12:21:25 pm
Yep, I bet golf are frothing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 07, 2021, 12:21:39 pm
https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 07, 2021, 12:35:09 pm
https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/

What a good clear set of guidelines. I'm tempted to do a find replace for fishing with climbing - and send it to the BMC.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 07, 2021, 12:40:33 pm
Well worded. If it was me I would have put in something about being extra cautious when sea fishing, esp from rocky areas, but otherwise good. Surprised private boat fishing is allowed though?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on January 07, 2021, 12:48:46 pm
Cheers. That’s good news as something to do with my youngest as all his other stuff has stopped.
I was hoping golf was in as well so we could have done that. Maybe changes for that as well, seems odd to let fishing and not golf.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 07, 2021, 12:51:18 pm

What a good clear set of guidelines. I'm tempted to do a find replace for fishing with climbing - and send it to the BMC.

Clear, but wrong. BMC stuff is generally accurate in explaining what is guidance and what is the law.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on January 07, 2021, 12:57:00 pm
Sorry to divert from fishing, and despite not usually joining in this thread, I've got this nagging idea to share.

Travelling to exercise outdoors. What's the main problem?? Less the actual exercising outdoors alone, and more the following:

1. Travelling via driving greater distances - increased risk of accidents stressing emergency services.
2. Injuring yourself and requiring rescue or treatment - ditto.
3. Using facilities (shops, petrol) outside of your local area.
4. Further breaking covid rules via larger gatherings, not social distancing etc.

So maybe the following could be useful:

1. Double the fines and double the penalty points for any traffic / parking offences committed outside of your local area whilst on non-essential travel - discourages further travelling, encourages safer driving to reduce RTAs.

2. Mandatory call-out charge for MRT rescues, that is also doubled if you're rescued outside your local area - again discourages travel, encourages more cautious outings, self-reliance, etc. Charge can be split between MRT donation and local hospital trust.

3. and 4. Don't have one for these yet, but double fines for committing social distance / mingling offences outside local area could be one.


OBVIOUSLY there are a million and one things anyone could nitpick about enforcing this, blah blah blah whatever if I wanted fucking nitpicking I'd have posted it on a public forum full of bored climbers. But the principle seems sound to me...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 07, 2021, 12:58:26 pm
I was hoping golf was in as well so we could have done that. Maybe changes for that as well, seems odd to let fishing and not golf.

May well be, the thing I initially saw did suggest fishing was one of a few but not what the others were.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 07, 2021, 12:59:14 pm
Sorry to divert from fishing, and despite not usually joining in this thread, I've got this nagging idea to share.

Travelling to exercise outdoors. What's the main problem?? Less the actual exercising outdoors alone, and more the following:


Travelling is not actually against the law, it's just a guideline, so it's not possible to legally enforce it in any way.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: duncan on January 07, 2021, 01:22:56 pm
https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/

What a good clear set of guidelines.

Except that they completely sidestep what is meant by “local” which is what most of the debate amongst climbers is about.

I see the mental health benefits of sitting by the sea and watching waves (bears a strong resemblance to my climbing) but let’s not call it exercise. The Angling Trust must have friends in the right places.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 07, 2021, 01:50:40 pm
https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/

What a good clear set of guidelines.

Except that they completely sidestep what is meant by “local” which is what most of the debate amongst climbers is about.

I see the mental health benefits of sitting by the sea and watching waves (bears a strong resemblance to my climbing) but let’s not call it exercise. The Angling Trust must have friends in the right places.

Local is defined by the Govt in the guidelines as in your village, town or same part of city (or words to that effect)... to me that seems pretty clear.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 07, 2021, 01:51:32 pm

2. Mandatory call-out charge for MRT rescues, that is also doubled if you're rescued outside your local area - again discourages travel, encourages more cautious outings, self-reliance, etc. Charge can be split between MRT donation and local hospital trust.


https://www.thenational.scot/news/18985097.rescued-climbers-fined-covid-travel-breach/ not call-out charge, but were fined.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 07, 2021, 01:52:29 pm
Sorry to divert from fishing, and despite not usually joining in this thread, I've got this nagging idea to share.

Travelling to exercise outdoors. What's the main problem?? Less the actual exercising outdoors alone, and more the following:


Travelling is not actually against the law, it's just a guideline, so it's not possible to legally enforce it in any way.

Yup, this policing by by consent thing is a double edged sword, isn’t it.
Pros and cons.
Unlike other nations, who have some, uh, odd(?) variations on that theme:
 https://magicseaweed.com/news/police-throwing-stun-grenades-at-surfers-to-scare-them-out-of-the-water-in/12223/?fbclid=IwAR3yazE0VNoRZMHpL4h8v28KhZeoLhBYURqzCfasL0QJZjzHGdbEqt7faAg (https://magicseaweed.com/news/police-throwing-stun-grenades-at-surfers-to-scare-them-out-of-the-water-in/12223/?fbclid=IwAR3yazE0VNoRZMHpL4h8v28KhZeoLhBYURqzCfasL0QJZjzHGdbEqt7faAg)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 07, 2021, 02:02:15 pm
Whoever wrote that article clearly doesn't know the difference. Thunderflashes are basically a big crackers used in SA military training exercises, stun grenades are a different game altogether. We used to put leftover thunderflashes under helmets to see how high we could make them go.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nik at work on January 07, 2021, 02:11:23 pm
While on heads?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 07, 2021, 02:11:56 pm
Whoever wrote that article clearly doesn't know the difference. Thunderflashes are basically a big crackers used in SA military training exercises, stun grenades are a different game altogether. We used to put leftover thunderflashes under helmets to see how high we could make them go.

I was once sleeping, one cold winter’s night, on an improvised raft in a certain flooded Dartmoor Quarry; when a rather disagreeable, rebreather wearing, rubber clad Bootneck twunt, dropped a Thunder Flash into our midst.

Wanker.

Falling in the water in a Pussers slug, blinded and deafened and then trying to get out of the damn thing before you drown.

Character building, apparently.

FOST staff used to use them, along with CS, for engine;space fire exercises during the old Portland “Thursday War”. Being in a closed, steel walled,  compartment with one of those “little firecrackers” is also “fUN” (small f, capital un).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 07, 2021, 02:18:06 pm
While on heads?

lol, no on the ground! Challenge was to catch the helmet rugby ball style without losing teeth, breaking nose, or taking it in the nuts.

Instructors woke us in bungalows once. Probably partial cause of my tinnitus, although I expect 155mm guns did more damage.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on January 07, 2021, 02:20:00 pm
Travelling is not actually against the law, it's just a guideline, so it's not possible to legally enforce it in any way.

Doesn't stop Lancs police posturing like it is. I called up their social media posts (which wasn't just down to one force) regarding T4 restrictions and the response I got was the officer who posted, hadn't actually been briefed on the T4 legislation and incorrectly presumed it WAS law.

When everything was chopping and changing in a matter of days I can understand how this happens (even if wrapping various parts of the Forest of Bowland in Police tape was a bit much), but now I'm less sympathetic. The DCC think this doesn't matter as the consequences of people not complying are worse. I also struggle with this. During the first lockdown they behaved 'selectively' in terms of the enforcement within the local area. This included allowing landowner erected plywood signs nailed across PRoW on Pendle Hill remain for the duration.

I'm not an overly positive person, but I've been massively disheartened by Lancs police throughout this pandemic and had to deal with them recently when some twat overtook me on the bike (ending up with them parked in a tree) and was massively underwhelmed by their response (the very same day they put out a plea for information regarding a cyclist left for dead not too far away).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 07, 2021, 02:28:15 pm
While on heads?

lol, no on the ground! Challenge was to catch the helmet rugby ball style without losing teeth, breaking nose, or taking it in the nuts.

Instructors woke us in bungalows once. Probably partial cause of my tinnitus, although I expect 155mm guns did more damage.

Do you guys get plagued by law firms offering to help you with your hearing loss claim? I get about five emails a week as a UK Veteran. Probably two a month about my arthritis claim and the odd one about asbestos (I was an Engineer). I reckon I actually get more of them than I do calls about the RTA I apparently had last week, every week (I must be a shit driver, with a terrible memory, seriously so).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 07, 2021, 02:32:54 pm
No, none. No contact details on record with SA Military, and I reckon no firms in the UK know I served. Probably pointless anyway, SA Military stance would be - we issued you earplugs at the start of basics and ear defenders at start of large ordinance training , if you lost them / dropped them / they were stolen, you had to but new ones, like all the rest of the issued kit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 07, 2021, 04:30:46 pm
While on heads?

lol, no on the ground! Challenge was to catch the helmet rugby ball style without losing teeth, breaking nose, or taking it in the nuts.

Instructors woke us in bungalows once. Probably partial cause of my tinnitus, although I expect 155mm guns did more damage.

[wor story]
I was once on a course with an SAS sniper whose face and ears were badly burnt after someone fired a Shamoolie (illumination flare to non-mil) at him during an exercise. Thing hit him and set fire to his Ghillie suit,  and he couldn't get the suit off..
[/wor story]

Perhaps the police should release electric eels to stun the surfers.
Landmines for skiiers.
Garotte wires for mtn bikers.
Punji pits for hillwalkers.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 07, 2021, 04:46:04 pm
While on heads?

lol, no on the ground! Challenge was to catch the helmet rugby ball style without losing teeth, breaking nose, or taking it in the nuts.

Instructors woke us in bungalows once. Probably partial cause of my tinnitus, although I expect 155mm guns did more damage.

[wor story]
I was once on a course with an SAS sniper whose face and ears were badly burnt after someone fired a Shamoolie (illumination flare to non-mil) at him during an exercise. Thing hit him and set fire to his Ghillie suit,  and he couldn't get the suit off..
[/wor story]

Perhaps the police should release electric eels to stun the surfers.
Landmines for skiiers.
Garotte wires for mtn bikers.
Punji pits for hillwalkers.

I like the war stories. Climbers generally have a few Epics tucked away in their scarred, distressed, memory cells. These things are far more entertaining than Netflix. I wish people shared them more.

Yes, my kids think I’m a boring old codger and I hear “Heard it!” quite often...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 07, 2021, 05:19:04 pm
Phosphorous burns are horrific, wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 07, 2021, 06:48:02 pm
'mon the  :fishing: :fishing: :fishing:


Our fishing club has sensibly decided that, since the ponds are not near anyone's house, we should not be going there.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cheque on January 07, 2021, 06:50:03 pm
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 07, 2021, 06:53:17 pm
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.

If the village or part of city you live in is S11 or S32, you'd be thanking god
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 07, 2021, 07:49:42 pm
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.

Come and live the Aire Valley, Cheque. Riddled with grit up here.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 07, 2021, 09:21:31 pm
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.

Nobody I know lives closer to Bell Hagg than you Cheque, I look forward to a schooling from the Crosspool showpony!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 205Chris on January 08, 2021, 11:35:36 am
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.

The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: reeve on January 08, 2021, 11:51:34 am
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.

Crikey. So if you are going bouldering at Burbage, the message is to not take a flask, right?

I also heard (third hand) about police at Longshaw turning people away yesterday. Apparently the climber had a conversation with the officer, who thought that climbing would probably be stretching the legislation.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 08, 2021, 11:57:54 am
Blimey. Are cold drinks classed as a picnic too? Water? What's current legal stance on this Ru? :)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 08, 2021, 12:01:04 pm
Thats disgraceful. Derbyshire Police are having such a bad pandemic.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 08, 2021, 12:12:29 pm
Christ! Just read that article and can’t believe the force actually have the nerve to try to defend their actions.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 08, 2021, 12:17:20 pm
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.

The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.

Came here to post this. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

Particularly concerning that the College of Policing are saying it's up to individual officer's discretion, when they have no legal right to do so given there is nothing in the legislation around travel to exercise.

Quote
Derbyshire Police said: "It is up to each individual officer on a case-by-case basis to decide what is reasonable as the legislation does not proscribe a distance."

In fact that's wrong. The legislation doesn't even say you can't travel for exercise, let alone prescribe an allowed distance! It says exercise is a reasonable excuse to be outside your home, simple as that.

You can't fine people or otherwise sanction them for doing things that are "not in the spirit" of the lockdown!!

Crikey that's pushed my buttons  :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on January 08, 2021, 12:19:49 pm
Similarly, I kind of now fancy going out into the peak to get into an argument with the police. Which is dumb since I'm only fingerboarding to rehab an injured finger at the moment anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cheque on January 08, 2021, 12:28:00 pm
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.

Nobody I know lives closer to Bell Hagg than you Cheque, I look forward to a schooling from the Crosspool showpony!

 :lol: I could well be the climber who lives closest. I used to climb there quite a bit and had plans to go every day and get the place wired after I finished the Seaside (I moved here the same week I started filming it) but then I had my accident and haven’t been able to boulder or risk a ground fall since so it’s not really very appealing any more.  :boohoo:

I was just making a daft joke about the odd wording of the guidance and how we all fit it around what we think is reasonable- none of us would have described Burbage as being in Hathersage let alone Sheffield a year ago would we?  ;)

Back on the subject of Bell Hagg- there’s still both climbed and unclimbed rock on the (once again empty) golf course above it (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30568.msg604260.html#msg604260) for any S10 residents who are up for it this lockdown.  :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 08, 2021, 12:29:38 pm
Similarly, I kind of now fancy going out into the peak to get into an argument with the police. Which is dumb since I'm only fingerboarding to rehab an injured finger at the moment anyway.

 :lol: :lol:
I have the same response to this as you and Bradders!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cheque on January 08, 2021, 12:43:15 pm
Similarly, I kind of now fancy going out into the peak to get into an argument with the police.

(https://i.ibb.co/1ZGP5CV/C8-B9-EB47-3-CA0-4-BD1-8757-8-CEEE1-E043-E5.jpg)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on January 08, 2021, 12:48:18 pm
Can't be me, no kneepads in sight ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 08, 2021, 12:58:04 pm
Police state.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: El Mocho on January 08, 2021, 01:14:01 pm
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.

The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.

We chatted to 2 random blokes at Stanage yesterday (we were walking dogs having driven up from Hathersage, they were out for a walk). They had driven out separately from Sheffield and 1 had parked at Surprise view car park and been approached by the police there (Derbyshre police). They asked him where he had come from and when he said Sheffield they said he was now in Derbyshire and they could therefore give him a fine. Without going into debate about if surprise view car park is actually in Derbyshire or not (I thought the boundary was the line of the top of Millstone and Lawrencefield so the car park was actually in Sheffield...) the impression we got from him was that the threat of a fine (they didn't give him one) was as he had crossed over into Derbyshire. Sounds like the same situation in the linked story (from Leicestershire to Derbyshire) so I'm not sure if that is part of what they are seeing as the issue?

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 08, 2021, 01:20:47 pm
Surprised the two women were not just warned and then sent home. Though I guess if you wanted to ‘make an example’ for publicity it’s worked (in a very heavy handed way). I can see why they wanted to go somewhere for a walk and chat together - but that could easily be done closer to home surely?

The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 08, 2021, 01:24:57 pm
They asked him where he had come from and when he said Sheffield they said he was now in Derbyshire and they could therefore give him a fine.

This is arbitrary and unlawful.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 08, 2021, 01:33:46 pm
And also factually wrong as the county boundary runs along the road and they were the right side of it!

Very tempted to spend the afternoon at surprise view...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 08, 2021, 01:44:17 pm
Surprised the two women were not just warned and then sent home. Though I guess if you wanted to ‘make an example’ for publicity it’s worked (in a very heavy handed way). I can see why they wanted to go somewhere for a walk and chat together - but that could easily be done closer to home surely?

The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...

I agree that we have only one side of the story and that I don’t understand why they were not just warned.

However fundamentally this just sucks and is wrong. They were not doing anything vaguely wrong and the police are clearly completely out of order. The idea that surely they could go for a walk closer to home misses the point that the police should not behave like this.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 08, 2021, 01:55:52 pm

The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...

I hope these ladies pointed out the irony of receiving a fine for defining 5 miles as local, by someone calling mint tea a picnic.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: El Mocho on January 08, 2021, 01:57:13 pm
And also factually wrong as the county boundary runs along the road and they were the right side of it!


When we told him this it led to the start of a long rant about police, liars etc etc. He then stopped himself short, apologised for his language and told us to enjoy our walk. I'm sure his mate heard the rest of the rant in full!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 08, 2021, 02:02:53 pm
Surprised the two women were not just warned and then sent home. Though I guess if you wanted to ‘make an example’ for publicity it’s worked (in a very heavy handed way). I can see why they wanted to go somewhere for a walk and chat together - but that could easily be done closer to home surely?

The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...

Is it a case of any publicity is good? So far I've seen nothing but outrage / condemning the police on this, and personally it makes me more determined to head out climbing tomorrow as I had intended.

Not that I want to have an argument of course! But I'll be taking a copy of the legislation with me.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 08, 2021, 02:07:25 pm
In my (as a youth fairly regular) interactions with the police - arguing with them generally gets you nowhere and frequently leads to a worse (for you) situation.

Agree with them, bite your tongue, and do what they say - is the strategy that works best... (then text your friend and go and meet for a mint tea picnic elsewhere).

😁
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: A Jooser on January 08, 2021, 02:37:21 pm

The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...

I hope these ladies pointed out the irony of receiving a fine for defining 5 miles as local, by someone calling mint tea a picnic.

Are you gentlemen suggesting Derbyshire Police might be a few sandwiches short of a picnic?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on January 08, 2021, 02:38:23 pm
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.

The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.

In this case, they*'d driven from Leicestershire to Derbyshire so maybe that constitutes leaving your "local area"? Regardless, another massive PR cock up for Derbyshire PD.

*Well, at least on of them
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 08, 2021, 02:42:23 pm
Google maps works reasonably well for showing county borders.
Eg, enter "south Yorkshire" and it shows the border clearly.
Same for post code areas.

Just in case you have to show your reasons for claiming to be local
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2021, 03:06:26 pm
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.

The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.

Came here to post this. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

Particularly concerning that the College of Policing are saying it's up to individual officer's discretion, when they have no legal right to do so given there is nothing in the legislation around travel to exercise.

Quote
Derbyshire Police said: "It is up to each individual officer on a case-by-case basis to decide what is reasonable as the legislation does not proscribe a distance."

In fact that's wrong. The legislation doesn't even say you can't travel for exercise, let alone prescribe an allowed distance! It says exercise is a reasonable excuse to be outside your home, simple as that.

You can't fine people or otherwise sanction them for doing things that are "not in the spirit" of the lockdown!!

Crikey that's pushed my buttons  :lol:

It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: 36chambers on January 08, 2021, 03:06:47 pm
Surprised the two women were not just warned and then sent home. Though I guess if you wanted to ‘make an example’ for publicity it’s worked (in a very heavy handed way). I can see why they wanted to go somewhere for a walk and chat together - but that could easily be done closer to home surely?

The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...

Is it a case of any publicity is good? So far I've seen nothing but outrage / condemning the police on this, and personally it makes me more determined to head out climbing tomorrow as I had intended.

If your local is anything like mine, you'll likely have more issue with the snow than with the police.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on January 08, 2021, 03:20:45 pm
Be interesting to see if anyone actually gets stopped by the police trying to go climbing and what sort of response they get.

Hoping N Yorks are a bit more charitably that the Derbyshire lot!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on January 08, 2021, 03:34:45 pm

I'm from the Hope Valley originally and have a lot of friends and family that still live out there.  There is now a growing amount of Pitchfork wielding happening on Facebook.   The intolerance kind of pumps my nads a bit, but I can also see both sides of the coin.  It has been truly mental out in the peak this year and I can imagine locals have just had enough, and now they have the excuse of a proper lockdown, perhaps the local plod are attempting to reduce the number of 'townies' coming out with a few public shows of authority.

Derbyshire/The Peak does suffer from being bounded on all sides by huge conurbations.

Never new that S11 runs all the way out to toadsmouth/fox house and burgage bridges, so the police are going to get a hard time from me if I get stopped at Burgage North!.

Still think we as a collective group should keep a low profile.  Big teams on Westside and Remergence for example. are going to attract unwanted attention.


Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 08, 2021, 03:56:54 pm
I expect a lot (e.g. public mood and police position) will become clearer tomorrow, given the sunny forecast. I can see the stay local edict and the arbitrary county/postcode boundary thing leading to eye-catching numbers at Burbage. Followed by sensationalist 'Covidiot' headlines next week.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 08, 2021, 04:00:01 pm

I'm from the Hope Valley originally and have a lot of friends and family that still live out there.  There is now a growing amount of Pitchfork wielding happening on Facebook.   The intolerance kind of pumps my nads a bit, but I can also see both sides of the coin.  It has been truly mental out in the peak this year and I can imagine locals have just had enough, and now they have the excuse of a proper lockdown, perhaps the local plod are attempting to reduce the number of 'townies' coming out with a few public shows of authority.

Derbyshire/The Peak does suffer from being bounded on all sides by huge conurbations.

Never new that S11 runs all the way out to toadsmouth/fox house and burgage bridges, so the police are going to get a hard time from me if I get stopped at Burgage North!.

Still think we as a collective group should keep a low profile.  Big teams on Westside and Remergence for example. are going to attract unwanted attention.

I agree entirely with your last sentence. Haven't got any time for nimbyism though. An awful lot of people who live in rural areas would love an excuse to stop 'outsiders' ever coming back and lockdown provides that; loads of stories of footpaths shut unliterally and cyclists being abused last time.

The Peak Effect this year has been interesting I agree. To me it has been a combination of closed pubs/other facilities which would have taken the strain off, but also speaks to a massive population of people who want access to the outdoors. The locals are going to have to get used to it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 08, 2021, 04:07:41 pm

The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...

I hope these ladies pointed out the irony of receiving a fine for defining 5 miles as local, by someone calling mint tea a picnic.

Are you gentlemen suggesting Derbyshire Police might be a few sandwiches short of a picnic?

It takes the biscuit doesn't it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on January 08, 2021, 04:14:45 pm
Yeah - I'm dropping some stuff off to my shielding mum tomorrow and it'll be interesting to see how mental burbage/fox house is.  (it depresses me each time I drive out, seems to just get worse and worse and as lovejoy says, the forecast tomorrow is only going to compound things).  I'll be choosing somewhere esoteric if I do elect to take some exercise tomorrow and will certainly not be contributing to the issues at burbage/fox house.

I really have to bite my lip with some of the posts on facebook. It does no good to point out to them that its not 'their' countryside etc.   

I think 'more folks wanting to access the outdoors' is more a by-product of all the normal haunts being closed.  When you think all gyms, pubs, restaurants, shops, cinemas, meadowhall, football matches, rugby matches, ice hockey, basket ball etc etc etc are all shut.  There's been feck all else for folks to do.  Just football alone must account for hundreds of thousands of extra folks twiddling their thumbs of a Saturday.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 08, 2021, 04:19:32 pm



The Peak Effect this year has been interesting I agree. To me it has been a combination of closed pubs/other facilities which would have taken the strain off, but also speaks to a massive population of people who want access to the outdoors. The locals are going to have to get used to it.

The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name  :wall:.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 08, 2021, 04:20:44 pm
It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.

No. It doesn't.

You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

Quote
1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;


Quote
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

It says nothing about travel.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 08, 2021, 04:25:58 pm
The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name  :wall:.

100%. I know its only a minority (or at least I hope it is!) but it makes my blood boil.

This would be a good thread split but is there any response that might get through or is it just too emotive? As Sam says pointing out 'its not your countryside' is correct but probably does no good. Quite apart from the fact that I'm sure the 'locals' enjoy popping into the shops in Sheffield reasonably often...

Sam: I agree, but also think that a lot of folk may have realised that they actually enjoy a nice walk and they may well be back even when the pubs reopen. My point was more that numbers are not going to drop back to normal I don't think- they will drop but will remain high- which some might say is NP's fulfilling their purpose.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 08, 2021, 04:26:32 pm
I think 'more folks wanting to access the outdoors' is more a by-product of all the normal haunts being closed.  When you think all gyms, pubs, restaurants, shops, cinemas, meadowhall, football matches, rugby matches, ice hockey, basket ball etc etc etc are all shut.  There's been feck all else for folks to do.  Just football alone must account for hundreds of thousands of extra folks twiddling their thumbs of a Saturday.

Yeah absolutely. And makes it all the more mental that the restrictions have been placed on the only possible outlet for people's energy that isn't a major transmission risk!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 08, 2021, 04:30:00 pm

I think 'more folks wanting to access the outdoors' is more a by-product of all the normal haunts being closed.  When you think all gyms, pubs, restaurants, shops, cinemas, meadowhall, football matches, rugby matches, ice hockey, basket ball etc etc etc are all shut.  There's been feck all else for folks to do.  Just football alone must account for hundreds of thousands of extra folks twiddling their thumbs of a Saturday.

This is probably true but I expect there'll be some lasting/legacy increase in Peak users.
The locals (most presumably live there by choice) have just been lucky that much of the nation has chosen to ignore their parks up until now. Getting upset that they've noticed and started availing themselves of a shared asset is the height of small mindedness. Like you say though, it's never going to go down well pointing this out.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on January 08, 2021, 04:34:46 pm
The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name  :wall:.

I keep harping on about this but it was pretty eye opening to see a "access for residents only" set of signage across the carriageway in Barley, one of the main villages for accessing Pendle Hill, persisting through the first lockdown. There were also "go home" signs across several PRoW. These too were ignored until the restrictions were lifted.

I did get on my high horse and query this and the answer I got, and this isn't paraphrased was "people weren't social distancing".

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 08, 2021, 04:44:24 pm
Piece about teh influx of visitors to NPs this summer
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/01/the-litter-was-a-shock-2020-covid-rush-on-uk-national-parks?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1609497279
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2021, 04:47:17 pm
It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.

No. It doesn't.

You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

Quote
1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;


Quote
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

It says nothing about travel.

For clarity, I meant the guidance.

If I was getting my nose out of joint because I'd driven up to Moscar for "exercise" when really, I could exercise nearer home and I'd been pulled for it, me personally, I'd be saying fair cop.

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on January 08, 2021, 04:52:15 pm
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

How do you feel about the Police at a relatively high level suggesting they don't overly care if they're outside of the legislation if it has a positive effect?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2021, 05:02:50 pm
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

How do you feel about the Police at a relatively high level suggesting they don't overly care if they're outside of the legislation if it has a positive effect?

It's shit. But there's a bigger problem at the minute, would you not agree?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 08, 2021, 05:06:16 pm
The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name  :wall:.

I keep harping on about this but it was pretty eye opening to see a "access for residents only" set of signage across the carriageway in Barley, one of the main villages for accessing Pendle Hill, persisting through the first lockdown. There were also "go home" signs across several PRoW. These too were ignored until the restrictions were lifted.

I did get on my high horse and query this and the answer I got, and this isn't paraphrased was "people weren't social distancing".

Plenty of nimbyism in Wales in past lockdowns, haven't heard any tales from the latest one but don't doubt there will have been incidents. 
During the first lockdown I'd cycle along a bridleway in the hills near me, until a local whose house the bridleway went through blocked the right of way 'because they were shielding' (not that path users would get anywhere near them). I went onto the local council's website to report the blockage on their facilty to report problems, the website had a map showing all PRoWs with live reports data showing plenty of reports of similar unlawful blockages all over north Wales.. Council replied via email to say they weren't tackling any of these until after lockdown ended..

Can see both sides with the police in Derbyshire, a uniquely busy NP. It must be a shit job - being told to stop and question people going out for walks in the countryside, while the virus rages through England as a result of people interacting in just about all other contexts except lone exercisers.
Thing is there are plenty of people taking the piss in the outdoors by gathering in groups. From the point of view of a police officer, these piss-takers share the same characteristics with people who aren't taking the piss:
1. Driving out beyond their immediate area to the countryside tick
2. Parking in beauty spot car park tick
3. Meeting one other tick.

The only difference is that those taking the piss then go on to meet up with a load of others at some point after they leave the car park. While those not taking the piss, don't. So you can at least understand why they target anyone visiting beauty spot car parks at this time, if not why they then go on to fine those two women doing nothing wrong.

Impossible to enforce against really unless they get the Reaper drone and hellfire missiles out again.   
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on January 08, 2021, 05:08:30 pm
It's shit. But there's a bigger problem at the minute, would you not agree?

I'd say that the police deciding that it's for them to decide what the law should be rather than enforcing the law as it is would be liable to be a bigger problem than bouldering on quiet bits of grit 10min drive from home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on January 08, 2021, 05:09:38 pm
I see them both as problems and don't really feel that one excuses the other in this instance (the same logic could be applied to all sorts of things) but I'm a bit of a black/white seeing idealist with things.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: T_B on January 08, 2021, 05:13:42 pm
Individuals are easy targets of course. It’ll be interesting to see if the Police make a move on the takeaway honeypots dotted around. In the park by me the cafe has erected two marquees (closed on two sides) for the old dears to sit in. Now that the schools are ‘closed’ the park is rammed with kids in the afternoons going for ice creams. Everyone mixing.

It’s hard to see this and not feel that driving 5 miles to access the countryside isn’t a ‘problem’.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on January 08, 2021, 05:14:20 pm
Sam: I agree, but also think that a lot of folk may have realised that they actually enjoy a nice walk and they may well be back even when the pubs reopen. My point was more that numbers are not going to drop back to normal I don't think- they will drop but will remain high- which some might say is NP's fulfilling their purpose.

Yes, totally agree

(Perhaps worthy of a topic split - "Peak effect" or something)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2021, 05:16:36 pm
It's shit. But there's a bigger problem at the minute, would you not agree?

I'd say that the police deciding that it's for them to decide what the law should be rather than enforcing the law as it is would be liable to be a bigger problem than bouldering on quiet bits of grit 10min drive from home.

Plenty of speculation that the guidance contains a mixture of must and should. Get it tested in court. But then we're back in the realms of  missing the point of why the lockdown is happening. Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.

If I'm having to pick a side (both very miserable realities) then I need to be able to look in the face of my missus and her colleagues.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: galpinos on January 08, 2021, 05:17:49 pm
They asked him where he had come from and when he said Sheffield they said he was now in Derbyshire and they could therefore give him a fine.

This is arbitrary and unlawful.

Ru, do you mean the Police can’t issue a fine as all exercise is allowed regardless of distance travelled, or that crossing the county boundary is arbitrary and not a suitable interpretation of  “a reasonable distance”.

If they can’t be fined for travelling as it’s not in the legislation, can all these fines be contested?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 08, 2021, 05:22:47 pm
It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.

No. It doesn't.

You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

Quote
1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;


Quote
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

It says nothing about travel.

For clarity, I meant the guidance.

If I was getting my nose out of joint because I'd driven up to Moscar for "exercise" when really, I could exercise nearer home and I'd been pulled for it, me personally, I'd be saying fair cop.

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

I mean that's just it, I 100% think that it is an unprecedented attack on our civil liberties. The combined issues being:

1. Guidance that make no logical sense, provide no actual suppression of virus transmission, and is therefore entirely unjustifiable, yet is put in place anyway.
2. As others have said, the police thinking they can make up the law themselves as they go.

Simply saying "oh but the virus" does not excuse these things.

I have every respect for your partner and the difficult time she and everyone else in the NHS is facing. I comply with every other bit of guidance. But since I can guarantee that not a single person will be in hospital with Covid having caught it outside, >2m away from anyone else, I am angry that the precious liberty to go for a walk or to climb is being challenged and I think that's an entirely justifiable concern.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 08, 2021, 05:24:05 pm

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
I don't see a lack of UKBers "think[ing] why the guidance is there." I see people tired of being told they can't do things with infinitesimally small transmission risks, to paper over the cracks of real measures having been left too late, again. I see people wondering why their well being must be sacrificed, again, so we can have idiotic shit like Eat Out to Help Out and Boris's Xmas party. Having to do things which make no material difference got very old in lockdown one, and here we are in lockdown three being told to do exactly the same, as if nothing was learned in between. And this isn't going away any time soon, most on here are unlikely to get a jab this side of autumn. Are we to meekly accept another year written off, because speaking up for a more pragmatic approach on outdoor activities is somehow immoral?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on January 08, 2021, 05:25:02 pm
Plenty of speculation that the guidance contains a mixture of must and should. Get it tested in court. But then we're back in the realms of  missing the point of why the lockdown is happening. Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.

If I'm having to pick a side (both very miserable realities) then I need to be able to look in the face of my missus and her colleagues.

What do you see as the issue then if not transmission? Increased likelihood of people hurting themselves and ending up in hospital? Reckon I’m probably more likely to end up in A&E if I attempted to run rather than driving 5 mins to go climbing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2021, 05:26:18 pm
It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.

No. It doesn't.

You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

Quote
1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;


Quote
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

It says nothing about travel.

For clarity, I meant the guidance.

If I was getting my nose out of joint because I'd driven up to Moscar for "exercise" when really, I could exercise nearer home and I'd been pulled for it, me personally, I'd be saying fair cop.

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

I mean that's just it, I 100% think that it is an unprecedented attack on our civil liberties. The combined issues being:

1. Guidance that make no logical sense, provide no actual suppression of virus transmission, and is therefore entirely unjustifiable, yet is put in place anyway.
2. As others have said, the police thinking they can make up the law themselves as they go.

Simply saying "oh but the virus" does not excuse these things.

I have every respect for your partner and the difficult time she and everyone else in the NHS is facing. I comply with every other bit of guidance. But since I can guarantee that not a single person will be in hospital with Covid having caught it outside, >2m away from anyone else, I am angry that the precious liberty to go for a walk or to climb is being challenged and I think that's an entirely justifiable concern.

All reasonable and on any other day I'd be out on the streets. Problem is they're still dealing with RTC and all the other stupid things people do when they're out and about.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2021, 05:29:04 pm

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
I don't see a lack of UKBers "think[ing] why the guidance is there." I see people tired of being told they can't do things with infinitesimally small transmission risks, to paper over the cracks of real measures having been left too late, again. I see people wondering why their well being must be sacrificed, again, so we can have idiotic shit like Eat Out to Help Out and Boris's Xmas party. Having to do things which make no material difference got very old in lockdown one, and here we are in lockdown three being told to do exactly the same, as if nothing was learned in between. And this isn't going away any time soon, most on here are unlikely to get a jab this side of autumn. Are we to meekly accept another year written off, because speaking up for a more pragmatic approach on outdoor activities is somehow immoral?

Not misaligned with anything you say. Bit of a pisser innit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 08, 2021, 05:30:21 pm

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
I don't see a lack of UKBers "think[ing] why the guidance is there." I see people tired of being told they can't do things with infinitesimally small transmission risks, to paper over the cracks of real measures having been left too late, again. I see people wondering why their well being must be sacrificed, again, so we can have idiotic shit like Eat Out to Help Out and Boris's Xmas party. Having to do things which make no material difference got very old in lockdown one, and here we are in lockdown three being told to do exactly the same, as if nothing was learned in between. And this isn't going away any time soon, most on here are unlikely to get a jab this side of autumn. Are we to meekly accept another year written off, because speaking up for a more pragmatic approach on outdoor activities is somehow immoral?

Completely agree with the above. A bit of bouldering in the outdoors does my sanity a world of good and harms no one. As far as I can see the police should deploy their resources elsewhere.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on January 08, 2021, 05:30:55 pm
Individuals are easy targets of course. It’ll be interesting to see if the Police make a move on the takeaway honeypots dotted around. In the park by me the cafe has erected two marquees (closed on two sides) for the old dears to sit in. Now that the schools are ‘closed’ the park is rammed with kids in the afternoons going for ice creams. Everyone mixing.

It’s hard to see this and not feel that driving 5 miles to access the countryside isn’t a ‘problem’.

We went for a walk through Endcliffe park the other week and I felt quite uncomfortable round the whole busier section, esp the bit near the cafe with a similar setup. Anyone who thinks that this is safer than driving out to Curbar, Burbage, or even Tideswell region to boulder or walk on your own has probably smoked a lot of crack.


Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.
I don't think this stands up to scrutiny. Transmission is what means the next few weeks will be a shitshow. I think I know what you meant to write is probably something like "Transmission, largely, isn't the problem with going bouldering at burbage right now"? But I'm not convinced that safe bouldering (lowball, non-sketchy landing, avoid sideways heels if you have dodgy knees like me) is really more dangerous than a morning walk and an afternoon lifting bits of metal and hanging off bits of wood in my attic.

Anyway, we're going in circles and it's all arbitrary to me because I'm broken so won't be going climbing until Feb. But in Feb I'll go climbing somewhere safe to my finger, even if it's 5min more drive, to minimise the risk of close-contact physio interaction!

P.S. What Bonjoy said
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2021, 05:37:11 pm
Individuals are easy targets of course. It’ll be interesting to see if the Police make a move on the takeaway honeypots dotted around. In the park by me the cafe has erected two marquees (closed on two sides) for the old dears to sit in. Now that the schools are ‘closed’ the park is rammed with kids in the afternoons going for ice creams. Everyone mixing.

It’s hard to see this and not feel that driving 5 miles to access the countryside isn’t a ‘problem’.

We went for a walk through Endcliffe park the other week and I felt quite uncomfortable round the whole busier section, esp the bit near the cafe with a similar setup. Anyone who thinks that this is safer than driving out to Curbar, Burbage, or even Tideswell region to boulder or walk on your own has probably smoked a lot of crack.


Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.
I don't think this stands up to scrutiny. Transmission is what means the next few weeks will be a shitshow. I think I know what you meant to write is probably something like "Transmission, largely, isn't the problem with going bouldering at burbage right now"? But I'm not convinced that safe bouldering (lowball, non-sketchy landing, avoid sideways heels if you have dodgy knees like me) is really more dangerous than a morning walk and an afternoon lifting bits of metal and hanging off bits of wood in my attic.

Anyway, we're going in circles and it's all arbitrary to me because I'm broken so won't be going climbing until Feb. But in Feb I'll go climbing somewhere safe to my finger, even if it's 5min more drive, to minimise the risk of close-contact physio interaction!

P.S. What Bonjoy said

Ah, yeah.  :thumbsup: The transmission over Xmas is the problem we face in the coming week or so, yes, and immediate transmission now is second to that probable issue.

Circle indeed. Safe, out.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 08, 2021, 06:46:22 pm
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.

The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March. 

In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on January 08, 2021, 06:54:34 pm


In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...

We also know now that a lot of the transmission risks posited during the first lockdown are not a thing, like getting it from fomites left on crimps or whatever. We are all heavily modifying our behaviour to reduce the risk of contracting and spreading Covid in scenarios where there’s actually a risk.

Sorry you’re stuck in Manchester! 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on January 08, 2021, 06:55:10 pm
Imagine if some science types had written a report about the new variant, say, just before Christmas.. making it obvious that relaxation was dumb and we should be in lockdown... Oh wait... :slap: At what point do you stop being morally obligated to clean up other people's mess?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 08, 2021, 06:55:54 pm

In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...

I appreciate that things are worse but could you explain why driving to a crag on your own and bouldering makes a difference to transmission?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 08, 2021, 07:02:52 pm
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.

The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March. 

In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...

Yes, but today’s record deaths, does not yet tally up with the record days for detected new infections or admissions. That’s some time off yet, 10 days or more. Rough projection from infection to death numbers looks like closer to 3k per day (with a lower bound of 1.5k, but we’re almost at that already, so I’m guessing the peak is going to eye watering, even if it doesn’t hit 3k).
So, people will get it, it’s going to be virtually impossible to keep denying the severity.
Might not be so bad, it could be that a huge number of the detected cases are amongst people who simply won’t progress that far.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 08, 2021, 07:05:09 pm
Imagine if some science types had written a report about the new variant, say, just before Christmas.. making it obvious that relaxation was dumb and we should be in lockdown... Oh wait... :slap: At what point do you stop being morally obligated to clean up other people's mess?

I can’t remember, are you a parent?
Coz I’m at 15 years now and it looks like I’ve got another 8 to go, minimum.
My mum says 50, though, so I’m not holding my breath.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 08, 2021, 07:26:37 pm
Google maps works reasonably well for showing county borders.
Eg, enter "south Yorkshire" and it shows the border clearly.
Same for post code areas.

Just in case you have to show your reasons for claiming to be local

I've got a screenshot of my home location and map showing my local area as leek East and upper hulme if I get stopped by the police on the staffs crags. Got it off the government's local map for covid deaths.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 08, 2021, 07:28:04 pm
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.

The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March. 

In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...

I'm going to keep saying it again, and again, and again; just because all of the above is true, DOES NOT mean activities that don't make it worse should stop. Especially where those activities will help people get through what is likely to he a very long period with some remaining sanity.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 08, 2021, 08:03:03 pm
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.

The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March. 

In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...

I'm going to keep saying it again, and again, and again; just because all of the above is true, DOES NOT mean activities that don't make it worse should stop. Especially where those activities will help people get through what is likely to he a very long period with some remaining sanity.

I’ve stayed out of this, this time around.

Because it’s pointless. It doesn’t matter that going climbing isn’t an infection or spread risk.
I get that it should matter and it shouldn’t be a issue.
The only issue anybody actually has, is whether what you’re doing is going to be easily justifiable to a pissed off copper, an irritable landowner or nosy dog walker, because, if not, you will be having a lot of fun and blood pressure issues. Possibly a lighter wallet to ease your walk back to the car.

I mean, are there a lot of people who truly value approval from the UKB massive before they go climbing?
I’m not convinced said pissed off copper is going to be up for reading umpteen pages of UKB posts about why it’s ok for you to have driven from Plymouth to Stanage for ten minutes climbing and four hours staring at the rock, or doing that weird Tai Chi shit we do when we’re trying to workout the beta.

Just bugger off somewhere quiet, don’t advertise your intent and be thankful for some fresh air and call it training.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 08, 2021, 08:07:06 pm
Everyone can and will make their own decisions. And questions and answers here about the legality or not are important.

We’ve discussed to a large degree the role of example setting and common societal behaviour wrt covid.

What really fucks me off is that 1 or 2 days into lockdown - I read on SM reports of groups of climbers at Burbage - including at least one person from UKB clearly not in household bubbles. That’s exactly what we shouldn’t be doing - any of us - and people need to understand that.

I know the below is NOT the case for all posts in this thread - but some posts really feel like they are seeking justification for doing what they probably shouldn’t do.

If you do need this justification - well you probably really know you shouldn’t be going out.

(And what Matt said - last para)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on January 08, 2021, 08:16:51 pm
As Matt and Tom said. All I can add is those that are so desperate to get out I just wonder how you would cope if you get injured.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 08, 2021, 08:22:01 pm
There is an argument that THE ONLY potential harm caused by (local and social distanced) bouldering, is the encouragement of other non-stay-at-home behaviour. As such the ideal is to quietly get on with it and not advertise in any way. But how can I put this... It's really really bloody hard to do that when people keep popping up online making egregious statements that demand to be challenged. In other words, both 'sides' need to apply the same self discipline and keep their views to themselves for this ideal to have any chance of success.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on January 08, 2021, 08:30:52 pm
I’d agree with that Jon.

I think the issue of wether or not to go climbing might be a bit of an unproductive discussion and it would be more useful to put more effort into encouraging the “socially distanced” part of the equation.

Every time I’ve been out somewhere even slightly busy people have not been socially distancing at the crag - there seems to be a general opinion that outdoor transmission is impossible. That was never true and is a more dangerous assumption now.

It’s depressing to hear of large groups at the crag in the last few days. It’s not like it’s hard to keep 2m apart in the burbage valley
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on January 08, 2021, 08:37:52 pm
To be honest I don’t really care if you are throwing your pads over your garden fence and nipping up to your local crag. However if and it’s a big if you get pulled over by the police and fined whether it’s lawful or not. It will come back to bit us in the longer term.
There are crags that are now no longer accessible because of people climbing in the first lockdown.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: turnipturned on January 08, 2021, 08:40:15 pm
Reckon I’m probably more likely to end up in A&E if I attempted to run rather than driving 5 mins to go climbing.

Or climb on something that you made in your garage  :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: moose on January 08, 2021, 08:47:35 pm
Anyone else almost hoping the UK weather comes to the rescue with constant rain that makes hand-wringing about definitions of "local", "exercise", and "necessary"  a moot point! 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 08, 2021, 08:49:18 pm
Good points Jon and Stu - though unlike back in March no one has said there should be no climbing. As Stu says it’s about making it clear that distancing is important. See fiends thread.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on January 08, 2021, 08:49:49 pm

Or climb on something that you made in your garage  :lol:

Tru facts! I've caused myself far more injury at home training than I ever have out at the crag  :lol:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on January 08, 2021, 09:31:35 pm
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down” in that there is no legal limit on how far to travel and all fines will be reviewed. This according to a thread on Bikeradar.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: RobK on January 08, 2021, 09:43:13 pm
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down” in that there is no legal limit on how far to travel and all fines will be reviewed. This according to a thread on Bikeradar.

Link here with NPCC guidance.

https://www.derbyshire.police.uk/news/derbyshire/news/news/forcewide/2021/january/force-welcomes-new-guidance-from-npcc-around-about-travelling-during-lockdown/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 08, 2021, 09:47:12 pm
There is an argument that THE ONLY potential harm caused by (local and social distanced) bouldering, is the encouragement of other non-stay-at-home behaviour. As such the ideal is to quietly get on with it and not advertise in any way. But how can I put this... It's really really bloody hard to do that when people keep popping up online making egregious statements that demand to be challenged. In other words, both 'sides' need to apply the same self discipline and keep their views to themselves for this ideal to have any chance of success.

Well said.

Sorry to have taken out my frustrations on here, I feel very strongly about it. At the end of the day though it's all unbelievably insignificant when you consider what others are doing (for example, I learned earlier that my brother in law drove from Leeds to Warrington and back today, to see his Grandma..... :slap:).

I think it was Bonjoy who also said, a long time ago in this thread, that, try as we might, middle class dads aren't going to save the world from this thing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on January 08, 2021, 09:56:18 pm
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down” in that there is no legal limit on how far to travel and all fines will be reviewed. This according to a thread on Bikeradar.

Not before it ended up on the front page of the Times tomorrow though, which was maybe the whole point. I do wonder whether it will have the opposite effect to what was intended though.

https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on January 08, 2021, 10:09:00 pm
There is an argument that THE ONLY potential harm caused by (local and social distanced) bouldering, is the encouragement of other non-stay-at-home behaviour. As such the ideal is to quietly get on with it and not advertise in any way. But how can I put this... It's really really bloody hard to do that when people keep popping up online making egregious statements that demand to be challenged. In other words, both 'sides' need to apply the same self discipline and keep their views to themselves for this ideal to have any chance of success.

Rule number 1 of Boulder Club...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 08, 2021, 10:25:59 pm
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down” in that there is no legal limit on how far to travel and all fines will be reviewed. This according to a thread on Bikeradar.

Good. The over zealous policing and handing out of unlawful fines is pretty unforgivable when the law is almost identical to that in the lockdowns last year, and several police forces got their hands slapped back then for doing the same things.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cheque on January 08, 2021, 10:28:13 pm
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down”

Sensible really, jumping off is unnecessarily risky.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 08, 2021, 10:38:13 pm
Also worth noting the context of local rates of infection. Yorkshire and Humber currently has the lowest in the country and my attitude to recreation will take that into account.

Things do look very bad in the south-east, but I'm hopeful the timing of the lockdown in this region was not so tragically late.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 08, 2021, 10:45:57 pm
Also worth noting the context of local rates of infection. Yorkshire and Humber currently has the lowest in the country and my attitude to recreation will take that into account.

Yes. Don't stray into that Derbyshire. Way too dangerous
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2021, 11:20:59 pm
Also worth noting the context of local rates of infection. Yorkshire and Humber currently has the lowest in the country and my attitude to recreation will take that into account.

Things do look very bad in the south-east, but I'm hopeful the timing of the lockdown in this region was not so tragically late.

Sheffield is on the up again.

290 cases per 100,000 people in the latest week 29 Dec-4 Jan.
The average area in England had 576*.

1,696 cases in the latest week 29 Dec-4 Jan

+652 compared with the previous week

31,610 total cases to 8 Jan

Source: BBC
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 09, 2021, 09:08:59 am
The national context being that that rate is one of the lowest in the country, lower than it was here throughout October, and rising more slowly than it was in October, when we were put into Tier 3. I don't recall you popping up then to urge caution?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 09, 2021, 09:58:41 am
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.

The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March. 

In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
Any increase in transmisibility is academic if you are multiplying by zero.
 Arguments regards ultra low/non zero risk have been done to death already. I won't rehash.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 09, 2021, 10:02:58 am
The national context being that that rate is one of the lowest in the country, lower than it was here throughout October, and rising more slowly than it was in October, when we were put into Tier 3. I don't recall you popping up then to urge caution?

It is different this time.

Obviously I don’t know how different, because we are in a lockdown and everything is screwed up by the Xmas (inevitable) protocol breaches, but everywhere this new variant has popped up, r has exploded.

Torbay, was well below 1, less than 10 days ago. We were so far below the national average, it almost felt safe. Lower, even, than rural Devon.

As of yesterday, we were reassessed at r=1.89 or 8th worst region of England. From best, to 8th worst in a little over a week.
I’ve not seen much flouting of mask rules.
People out and about weren’t taking the piss much, even before lockdown.
The degree of polite space granting on pavements etc is remarkable.

My Uncle and his wife, started to get sick on Tuesday (actually, my dad’s cousin and a couple years older, 75/6). They’ve been, essentially, shielding since before Xmas. Both got positive tests back yesterday. Neither are doing well.
He’s such a cantankerous, loud, misogynistic, xenophobic (former RN) sweary, old coot; I’ve muted him more than once on FB, but I thought he was indestructible. No ordinary human could consume that much rum in a single sitting.
So odd to see him so scared. Cannot wrap my head around a “humble” Uncle Bob.
Strange days.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 09, 2021, 10:04:29 am
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.

The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March. 

In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
Any increase in transmisibility is academic if you are multiplying by zero.
 Arguments regards ultra low/non zero risk have been done to death already. I won't rehash.

Low. Yes.
Zero. No.

And, you don’t know, like the rest of us, exactly what the risk is yet. Your data is out of date.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on January 09, 2021, 10:29:30 am
On the outdoor transmission potential - it was interesting to go out on a walk over the christmas period on a sunny, frosty morning and see just how far our breath vapour was travelling and intermingling.  Quite startling to see it actually 'lit up' and highlighted.  Made me think twice. 
Remember, what we were seeing was water droplets, from our lungs, suspended in the air.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on January 09, 2021, 10:50:57 am
It’s zero if you’re on your own, which I’m guessing is how Jon normally does things.

That’s why I think the focus on “local” is misjudged regardless of what the guidelines say. Better to be alone and 10 miles from home than packed round remergence 5 miles from home.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on January 09, 2021, 11:10:36 am
And both probably better than walking around the busier parks in Sheffield
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 09, 2021, 11:23:20 am
It’s zero if you’re on your own, which I’m guessing is how Jon normally does things.

That’s why I think the focus on “local” is misjudged regardless of what the guidelines say. Better to be alone and 10 miles from home than packed round remergence 5 miles from home.
Yes, exactly.
Alone, or with household.
Practically zero is also reasonable IMO, because it's still below the baseline of day to day risk. E.g. the risk associated with a single socially distanced walk in the park, in an otherwise stay at home day. To eliminate the baseline minimum is to all intents and purposes impossible (you do the maths).


Ps. For me this is all currently academic as I'm resting an elbow injury.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 09, 2021, 11:26:15 am
I also totally agree with Stu's point about 'local'. As mentioned earlier, there could be messy scenes at Burbage today with Sheffielders trying to stay in postcode.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 09, 2021, 11:41:53 am
It’s zero if you’re on your own, which I’m guessing is how Jon normally does things.

That’s why I think the focus on “local” is misjudged regardless of what the guidelines say. Better to be alone and 10 miles from home than packed round remergence 5 miles from home.

Ok Stu, correct me if I’m wrong and view this as a question not a statement.

This is how it has been explained to me (or how I interpreted what was said).

The new variants (more than one) appear to be more infectious, by a significant factor, probably greater than 1.5.
This appears to follow from an improved affinity that reduces the viral load threshold for infection.
This significantly reduces the required exposure times to and (therefore) quantities of, virus required to achieve infection.

This change, brings Fomite transmission, once thought a low risk, back into play.

It’s not that the half life of the virus on a given surface has changed, it appears to decay at the same rate; it’s that the length of time it remains at viable transmission levels is extended in line with it’s reduced infectious load requirement. 
Still a lower risk than aerosol of droplet transmission, but no long negligible.

Going climbing, especially alone, is still a very low risk activity.

However, the total risk to be considered is not simply the act of climbing.

The total administrative burden and associated support activities factor into the equation, significantly.

If you drive, that is increasing the total risk. Not, specifically the act of driving, the ancillary activities that are required or become more probable, because you have increased the complexity of the activity.

Increased need for fuel, perhaps, being the obvious ancillary activity increased beyond your baseline, lockdown, requirement.
If (if) the Fomite transmission hypothesis is borne out, even using pay at pump, increases your risk of either catching or transmitting the virus, significantly.

That is, climbing is not a zero risk activity and potentially has a greater than negligible to a lower end of moderate, risk attached to it and significant caution and thought is needed to control that risk.

Somebody, earlier in the thread said something about people saying something so egregious that they felt compelled to counter it. For me, describing the risk as “zero” or “minimising” (failing to acknowledge) a low, but real, risk is to encourage (by omission) people (less thoughtful people) to ignore basic precautions.
Precautions that might well be shown to have been unnecessary in time, but cost little to indulge now and might be, actually, wholly necessary.

Like, seriously, do what you want. Just be careful. For all the various reasons people have mentioned.   
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 09, 2021, 11:57:08 am
Yep, the new strain is a real concern. However I don't think that's the only thing going on. Current stats are almost the exact opposite of when the tier system was introduced. The stats show the previous higher tier areas and subsequent lockdown-lite was largely successful in bringing down case numbers in those areas to low levels by early Dec. However those areas going into the xmas period off the back of a low-tier/ doing ok period are now in big trouble. For those areas it looks like xmas and the subsequent delay in locking down will be very costly and may well require further escalation. For us in Sheffield this lockdown is early and hard, and off the back of a long period where we were conscious of doing badly in the national context - so I think highly likely to be effective without escalation. But like many I'll be monitoring levels closely and modifying my behaviour and business as appropriate.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on January 09, 2021, 12:09:57 pm
Everything you say is true Matt. These are all downsides to someone driving for a solitary boulder somewhere. As is the small but non zero risk of landing badly and breaking an arm, say.

I’m worried about transmission with the new virus. I don’t want to be around people any more than I have to at the moment indoors or out. It’s a gorgeous sunny day in sheffield today. I wouldn’t even think of going to burbage.

But getting out into open space also does a lot of good that should be offset against the harm. My judgement is the benefits could outweigh the risks for some people - and they should feel able to go out and climb if they want.

Others won’t have that option and will have to find other releases.

Others still will be able to manage without going climbing. Perhaps they have a nice walk from their door, or an attic board they enjoy? If they can avoid driving out to climb that’s great IMO.

I’m not quite sure how to word this but I think there’s space to say thanks to all those who choose to be rigid in their adherence to the guidance without pillorying those who wish to ignore the letter of the guidance whilst following its spirit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 09, 2021, 12:25:15 pm
Yep, the new strain is a real concern. However I don't think that's the only thing going on. Current stats are almost the exact opposite of when the tier system was introduced. The stats show the previous higher tier areas and subsequent lockdown-lite was largely successful in bringing down case numbers in those areas to low levels by early Dec. However those areas going into the xmas period off the back of a low-tier/ doing ok period are now in big trouble. For those areas it looks like xmas and the subsequent delay in locking down will be very costly and may well require further escalation. For us in Sheffield this lockdown is early and hard, and off the back of a long period where we were conscious of doing badly in the national context - so I think highly likely to be effective without escalation. But like many I'll be monitoring levels closely and modifying my behaviour and business as appropriate.

JB - it seems to be shooting up everywhere in the last two weeks. Here in Manchester the Nov lockdown following T3 (which had stopped the rot abs was bringing it down) saw cases in the city come down from 600 to just above 100 per 100k. At present it’s back up to over 400 - with 100% increases each week for the last two weeks. Under T4 (since Boxing Day) and now lockdown. It’s only going one way fast at the moment here.

As OMM said - Torbay going from 1 to near 2 R rate in less than two weeks.

Something about either how the new strain operates - or whether we’ve reached some threshold with levels of community infection (or both) means it’s going up rapidly everywhere.

I wonder if it’s a bit of both - looking at Hull as an example from earlier. Hull had low rates - since May - right through until Oct when it almost overnight went up to the worst spot in the country. There I think it was a case of community complaceny - and then it became embedded and took off.

Personally I’m much more concerned now than I have been since March/early April. Something - as yet unknown - makes this version much better. If it’s through droplets (as before) as there is a square to cubic drop off with distance of concentration from source - a 50-70% increase in transmission indicates (to me at least) a much greater - much greater viral load.

I’ve gone back to avoiding all shops (even a takeaway coffee etc.. that I liked from the great shop up the road) and wearing a mask all the time outside (unless there really is no one else around). Maybe I’m over-reacting - and judging by responses to my posts on here many do - but I reall don’t like how this surge/peak is shaping up.

We’ll know a lot more in a week when the numbers ‘should’ (I really hope) drop off again. If they don’t (doom warning - sorry..) then I suspect we’ll see an even stronger lockdown. Maybe with full stay at home orders.

I know the above should probably go in the other thread.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on January 09, 2021, 12:41:43 pm
Given the new variant, how many kids are still in school, and how many people seem to still be going to non-essential workplaces in some way I'd be kind of surprised if we got notable declines in cases in the next couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: iain on January 09, 2021, 12:54:54 pm
A few things to consider:

- The current lockdown is not as strict as last spring and will not have the same effect at dampening infection rates, particularly of the new variant.

- The north in general is already struggling with hospital admissions with the rates around or above spring's peak, and unlike other areas it has been like that since October. With rates rising again there are far fewer beds in hospital capacity to look after the ill.
Regardless of capacity anecdotally the hospitals and staff are already struggling with the ongoing stress of this.

- Sheffield specifically is already in that situation without the new variant being widespread, it's going to get worse.

I personally don't give a hoot about how people exercise or where they travel (in contrast to the police apparently), the important thing for me is minimising personal contact and transmission any way I can outside of bubble commitments and dealing with unavoidables like work/shopping in the best way possible. That's the best I can do.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 09, 2021, 01:15:15 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/c23WS2V/99392-D0-D-0-FFF-4-D43-8026-A9080347-DACC.jpg)

Sorry.
I’ll get my coat.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 09, 2021, 01:18:37 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/c23WS2V/99392-D0-D-0-FFF-4-D43-8026-A9080347-DACC.jpg)

Sorry.
I’ll get my coat.

Did you see the German covid stay at home advert Matt? Worth googling - a good idea.

I see the govt has launched a mission fear advertising campaign today....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 09, 2021, 01:20:21 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/c23WS2V/99392-D0-D-0-FFF-4-D43-8026-A9080347-DACC.jpg)

Sorry.
I’ll get my coat.

Did you see the German covid stay at home advert Matt? Worth googling - a good idea.

I see the govt has launched a mission fear advertising campaign today....

Government actively trying to scare not calm.

Says everything really.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: iain on January 09, 2021, 01:22:49 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/c23WS2V/99392-D0-D-0-FFF-4-D43-8026-A9080347-DACC.jpg)

Sorry.
I’ll get my coat.
;D  :clap2:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on January 09, 2021, 02:04:24 pm
Increased need for fuel, perhaps, being the obvious ancillary activity increased beyond your baseline, lockdown, requirement.

If (if) the Fomite transmission hypothesis is borne out, even using pay at pump, increases your risk of either catching or transmitting the virus, significantly.

Filling up with fuel should be close to zero transmission risk if your aim is to make it so:

Pull up at pump, open app. Wash hands, put on gloves. Fill up with fuel. Throw away gloves. Wash hands. Drive away.

I see it as a similar situation to bouldering in that it should be close to zero transmission risk if sensible precautions are applied. But most people aren't applying those precautions (some bias here: the more precautions boulderers apply, the less visible they are).

If someone travels to go bouldering alone/with their household/bubble and takes every precaution to minimise spread (quiet/open venues, keeping large distances, avoiding busy paths, not sharing problems/areas, washing hands etc), I don't have a problem with that.

I do have a problem with the continued acceptance of far higher risk but allowed and generally accepted activities such as:

1) employers forcing people in to the workplace when their job can be done at home
2) token gestures to make places "covid secure" to force people in to workplaces
3) exploitation of 'key worker' definitions leading to far too many children still being in school
4) unnecessary shopping trips and failing to minimise transmission on these trips (not wearing a mask correctly, not distancing, shopping as a whole family etc etc)
5) unnecessary public transport use and failure to observe distancing and mask wearing
6) gatherings in homes

These are the sort of areas where education and enforcement should be focussed.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 09, 2021, 02:07:28 pm
I've been to the roaches today. It's certainly quieter than of late. I didn't see any police while I was there but I would put money on them visiting today. I saw people I could tell were not local, you could tell same as people in a new pub trying to find the toilet. Also 2 cars in the disabled bay and both had parking tickets. That to me says they don't know about the parking issues up there.
I think this weekend will be a chance for the police to see what happens. The people who live on the roaches Road will soon be on the phone to the police if it gets busy as they have done before.

Anyway the rock is all minging wet and ice on the higher bits, not that it will stop all these new climbers thinking wet rock just needs chalk.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 09, 2021, 02:32:56 pm
I saw people I could tell were not local, you could tell same as people in a new pub trying to find the toilet.

I went there the other week, before lockdown, and saw people who clearly weren’t regulars at the Upper Tier boulders.

There was a wedding party with bride and groom, fully dressed in white, photographer and people swigging champagne bottles. I didn’t see any chalk.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 09, 2021, 02:52:23 pm
I did my good deed though. 2 women with a tribe of kids were just leaving the car parked in the disabled bay. I asked her if she had seen what was on the window of the car in front. Why, shouldn't I park there? She was right in front of the sign with the answer to her question. She said thanks and moved it. Right into the half space at the start of the proper parking. Half on the road, half in the bay. I didn't say anything else to her.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: al on January 09, 2021, 03:28:35 pm
my girlfriend is a primary teacher at an inner city school, still going in to help key workers kids in small badly ventilated rooms with no ppe and little social distancing, gavin williamson yesterday was positively encouraging more to attend if they didn't have wifi at home; does that mean i can go to burbage with his blessing if I don't have a board at home?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 09, 2021, 03:40:17 pm
The national context being that that rate is one of the lowest in the country, lower than it was here throughout October, and rising more slowly than it was in October, when we were put into Tier 3. I don't recall you popping up then to urge caution?

Didn't know you'd needed me to. Not sure what your point is with that question.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 09, 2021, 04:31:09 pm
 A non climbing mate has told me he went there earlier and the police were there turning people away. He was from leek so they were happy walking ticked the exercise and local boxes.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 09, 2021, 05:12:14 pm
I think a "print your own permit" system could work.

Submit your claim to be where you plan to go, tick the boxes that you think apply.

Print permit.

Submit report that you are on your way.

Go out.

Show your permit (pdf on your phone will suffice) if asked by any approved enforcement agent. They can check that you are doing only what the permit is for.

Applications will be publicly viewable. Citizen reviewed.

If your logged reason turns out to be based on lies or to be not appropriate, then you may be liable for prosecution and certainly be ridiculed on social media.

Can't see too many problems with this

Think I'll call the app WychHunt or something
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Andy W on January 09, 2021, 05:28:51 pm
I think a "print your own permit" system could work.

Submit your claim to be where you plan to go, tick the boxes that you think apply.

Print permit.

Submit report that you are on your way.

Go out.

Show your permit (pdf on your phone will suffice) if asked by any approved enforcement agent. They can check that you are doing only what the permit is for.

Applications will be publicly viewable. Citizen reviewed.

If your logged reason turns out to be based on lies or to be not appropriate, then you may be liable for prosecution and certainly be ridiculed on social media.

Can't see too many problems with this

Think I'll call the app WychHunt or something

Thats more or less what we have had in France.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on January 09, 2021, 05:42:59 pm
According to the other channel North Yorkshire police have been booking walkers in Horton in Ribblesdale.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 09, 2021, 05:46:12 pm
does that mean i can go to burbage with his blessing if I don't have a board at home?

Go in peace, my child.


I was walking in a park earlier and saw a family sitting on a bench eating some food. Two PCSOs walked past and each party gave the other a nod of greeting. Nothing was said to the picnicers. But once the two officers were five steps beyond the bench one of them screamed "NOW!". They both span round, simultaneously drawing a pair of Sig P226 sidearms which had been concealed at their hips. In a split second, they'd each got off a couple of rounds, and the heads of 4 members of the family exploded, spreading skull fragments, brains, and blood over the fresh-fallen snow. The only family member left was a young boy, silent, his eyes wide with fear and disbelief. "Go," said the first PCSO, "and tell the people what you saw here today. But wear a mask and do so from a distance of greater than 2 metres".

The first part of that actually happened.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 09, 2021, 06:01:26 pm
does that mean i can go to burbage with his blessing if I don't have a board at home?

Go in peace, my child.


I was walking in a park earlier and saw a family sitting on a bench eating some food. Two PCSOs walked past and each party gave the other a nod of greeting. Nothing was said to the picnicers. But once the two officers were five steps beyond the bench one of them screamed "NOW!". They both span round, simultaneously drawing a pair of Sig P226 sidearms which had been concealed at their hips. In a split second, they'd each got off a couple of rounds, and the heads of 4 members of the family exploded, spreading skull fragments, brains, and blood over the fresh-fallen snow. The only family member left was a young boy, silent, his eyes wide with fear and disbelief. "Go," said the first PCSO, "and tell the people what you saw here today. But wear a mask and do so from a distance of greater than 2 metres".

The first part of that actually happened.

First 50%?

Up to “they both got a couple of rounds off”...?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 09, 2021, 06:13:22 pm
Weak.. Everyone knows PCSO's carry Glocks.  ::)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 09, 2021, 06:14:03 pm
According to the other channel North Yorkshire police have been booking walkers in Horton in Ribblesdale.

Excellent news!

Once the criminal justice system is clogged up with angry ramblers, we'll be safe to climb wherever and however we want.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 09, 2021, 06:15:54 pm
I think a "print your own permit" system could work.

Submit your claim to be where you plan to go, tick the boxes that you think apply.

Print permit.

Submit report that you are on your way.

Go out.

Show your permit (pdf on your phone will suffice) if asked by any approved enforcement agent. They can check that you are doing only what the permit is for.

Applications will be publicly viewable. Citizen reviewed.

If your logged reason turns out to be based on lies or to be not appropriate, then you may be liable for prosecution and certainly be ridiculed on social media.

Can't see too many problems with this

Think I'll call the app WychHunt or something


Will there be a box to tick for 'five-thousandth attempt on Ben's Roof sans knee-pad'?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 09, 2021, 06:26:18 pm
Shit

I've only allowed for three figure numbers
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 09, 2021, 06:51:22 pm
Shit

I've only allowed for three figure numbers

Sounds like a nailed on job for Serco.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 09, 2021, 07:19:40 pm
Pete have you been up the pass again... :D

(Penypass ranger) "We've had people also from Liverpool and some locals turning up knowing full well what the rules are, but just trying it on.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55604382
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on January 09, 2021, 07:20:12 pm
According to the other channel North Yorkshire police have been booking walkers in Horton in Ribblesdale.

Excellent news!

Once the criminal justice system is clogged up with angry ramblers, we'll be safe to climb wherever and however we want.
There was a Facebook link which had some great posts from Mr and Mrs Angry of Horton/Settle.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 09, 2021, 07:41:16 pm
It’s zero if you’re on your own, which I’m guessing is how Jon normally does things.

That’s why I think the focus on “local” is misjudged regardless of what the guidelines say. Better to be alone and 10 miles from home than packed round remergence 5 miles from home.

Ok Stu, correct me if I’m wrong and view this as a question not a statement.

This is how it has been explained to me (or how I interpreted what was said).

The new variants (more than one) appear to be more infectious, by a significant factor, probably greater than 1.5.
This appears to follow from an improved affinity that reduces the viral load threshold for infection.
This significantly reduces the required exposure times to and (therefore) quantities of, virus required to achieve infection.

This change, brings Fomite transmission, once thought a low risk, back into play.

It’s not that the half life of the virus on a given surface has changed, it appears to decay at the same rate; it’s that the length of time it remains at viable transmission levels is extended in line with it’s reduced infectious load requirement. 
Still a lower risk than aerosol of droplet transmission, but no long negligible.

Going climbing, especially alone, is still a very low risk activity.

However, the total risk to be considered is not simply the act of climbing.

The total administrative burden and associated support activities factor into the equation, significantly.

If you drive, that is increasing the total risk. Not, specifically the act of driving, the ancillary activities that are required or become more probable, because you have increased the complexity of the activity.

Increased need for fuel, perhaps, being the obvious ancillary activity increased beyond your baseline, lockdown, requirement.
If (if) the Fomite transmission hypothesis is borne out, even using pay at pump, increases your risk of either catching or transmitting the virus, significantly.

That is, climbing is not a zero risk activity and potentially has a greater than negligible to a lower end of moderate, risk attached to it and significant caution and thought is needed to control that risk.

Somebody, earlier in the thread said something about people saying something so egregious that they felt compelled to counter it. For me, describing the risk as “zero” or “minimising” (failing to acknowledge) a low, but real, risk is to encourage (by omission) people (less thoughtful people) to ignore basic precautions.
Precautions that might well be shown to have been unnecessary in time, but cost little to indulge now and might be, actually, wholly necessary.

Like, seriously, do what you want. Just be careful. For all the various reasons people have mentioned.
What you're saying is correct Matt, but if you read the post Stu is replying to you'll see I didn't say the risk was zero. I said any number multiplied by zero is zero. My point being that an increase in transmissibilty does not automatically equal a meaningful increase in risk, and the size of the original risk is the determining factor.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 09, 2021, 08:03:31 pm
Risk has many definitions but a common one is

Risk = probability x impact
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 09, 2021, 11:37:00 pm
Pete have you been up the pass again... :D

(Penypass ranger) "We've had people also from Liverpool and some locals turning up knowing full well what the rules are, but just trying it on.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55604382

Ha, no not me.. I’m too busy cultivating a cheesy nachos and strong cider habit to be doing anything risky.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: cowboyhat on January 11, 2021, 11:16:47 am
So what was the result from the weekend then, after all that hand-wringing and preparation, did anyone find themselves in a peevish parle with the plod?

Was it possible to traverse the base of Burbage North using only bouldering mats?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gme on January 11, 2021, 11:24:46 am
I was out, 8 miles from my house, didnt see a soul including the police.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 11, 2021, 11:37:29 am
Didn't get any further than Higgar. Never seen so many parked at Ringinglow and Lady Cannings, Burbage busy but not mental. However the road was heavily iced from the turning circle before the cattlegrid  so I suspect that was a big part of it; people failing to get round Cowperstone bend etc, although we did pass a Ferrari boldly heading across. Few boulderers out, I think I counted six at remergence, but snow on a lot of stuff. We went sledging at Higgar.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on January 11, 2021, 02:47:05 pm
Yeah - was all relatively civilised out there.  Spaces left at surprise view car park.  Conditions a bit misty and claggy in places.  didn't climb so can't comment for sure.  Not a police car in sight.  Dad drove up to fairholmes and said the cafe was open, but there we're only few cars parked up there. 

Not like March Lockdown though.  Still pretty busy out there as JB says.

Guess Derbyshire Polices 'scare' tactics worked a treat.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 11, 2021, 04:49:54 pm
I'm sure as long as people don't start taking the piss then the police will be OK.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 11, 2021, 05:01:46 pm
Rumours of more restrictions on exercise coming in:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Whether that effects the lone Boulderer I don’t know - but would stop two people from diff households doing rope stuff together I expect...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 11, 2021, 05:46:47 pm
Just cycle there in a peloton, you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on January 11, 2021, 05:49:14 pm
Informative reports, cheers. Cowboyhat see Mark S's post further up about the Roaches too.

I had contacts who went out locally in Lancashire with no issues, and on a quiet Froggatt walk on  the damp Sunday - not many people around and apparently a couple got away with having a picnic on a bench somewhere. Sat reports were similar to JB and SamT above.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 11, 2021, 09:27:11 pm
Just had a message regarding staffs police
2 separate people fined for being in dimmingsdale. Neither saw any police. Taking regs of parked cars. St postcodes also.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 11, 2021, 10:07:12 pm
Reports this evening from Llanberis MRT of a family SUV from Leicester, possibly a Vauxhall Frontera, destroyed in the Nant Peris area, by hellfire missile fired from Army Air Corp Apache callsign covid-one-nine on night patrol in the Pass and Ogwen valley. Local ground troops with tracker dogs hunted down and eliminated survivors who'd crawled into a culvert behind the Vaynol.     
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 11, 2021, 10:11:10 pm
Reports this evening from Llanberis MRT of a family SUV from Leicester, possibly a Vauxhall Frontera, destroyed in the Nant Peris area, by hellfire missile fired from Army Air Corp Apache callsign covid-one-nine on night patrol in the Pass and Ogwen valley. Local ground troops with tracker dogs hunted down and eliminated survivors who'd crawled into a culvert behind the Vaynol.     

The Fronteras are quite good a setting fire to themselves anyway!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 11, 2021, 10:19:04 pm
Reports this evening from Llanberis MRT of a family SUV from Leicester, possibly a Vauxhall Frontera, destroyed in the Nant Peris area, by hellfire missile fired from Army Air Corp Apache callsign covid-one-nine on night patrol in the Pass and Ogwen valley. Local ground troops with tracker dogs hunted down and eliminated survivors who'd crawled into a culvert behind the Vaynol.     

The Fronteras are quite good a setting fire to themselves anyway!

I don’t believe a Frontera would have made it as far up as Pen-y-Pass without AA assistance.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: highrepute on January 12, 2021, 12:50:53 pm
Boris Johnson criticised over bike ride seven miles from home (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55620138)

Just taking this case as an example. Seems like one can travel outside of the area of their city and seven miles is a perfectly reasonable distance.

That will certainly open up a lot more of the Peak for Sheffield based individuals.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 12, 2021, 12:53:46 pm
Isnt the issue with BJ whether he was driven there for his bike ride - rather than if he rode from Downing Street... ??
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on January 12, 2021, 01:02:09 pm
They're refusing to say which obviously means he was driven there.
Plus there's several closer parks
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on January 12, 2021, 01:08:32 pm
Just had a message regarding staffs police
2 separate people fined for being in dimmingsdale. Neither saw any police. Taking regs of parked cars. St postcodes also.

I heard that too from a local. Not just boulderers getting fined. Apparently it has been generally really busy since lockdown with people parking in passing places and the locals (not him!) complained.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 12, 2021, 01:15:04 pm
They're refusing to say which obviously means he was driven there.
Plus there's several closer parks

I’m sure everyone is aware, my feelings for Bojo include a deep, profound, absence of love, empathy or charity.

However, the Prime Minister of the UK, has certain security concerns that must be taken into account. I should imagine those Incharge of his security detail, might have what is best described as a “conniption fit” at the idea of him cycling out the front door...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 12, 2021, 01:18:25 pm
If I were a passer by, I might be inclined to shout out “off to get your eyes tested Boris?”
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on January 12, 2021, 01:36:43 pm
They're refusing to say which obviously means he was driven there.
Plus there's several closer parks

Seems that way

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-cycle-7-miles-downing-street-olympic-park-b827961.html

“The Standard has asked 10 Downing Street whether the PM cycled to the park or was driven there in a vehicle for his bike ride. However, officials declined to clarify“
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nik at work on January 12, 2021, 02:02:46 pm
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??


(And wot Matt sed)

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 12, 2021, 02:05:20 pm
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??

Quite. What a total waste of everyone's time.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: webbo on January 12, 2021, 02:14:30 pm
They're refusing to say which obviously means he was driven there.
Plus there's several closer parks

Seems that way

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-cycle-7-miles-downing-street-olympic-park-b827961.html

“The Standard has asked 10 Downing Street whether the PM cycled to the park or was driven there in a vehicle for his bike ride. However, officials declined to clarify“
Apparently he did Ride London 100 miles back in the day. So he can ride a bit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: IanP on January 12, 2021, 02:16:32 pm
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??

Quite. What a total waste of everyone's time.

Agreed as well - his ride didn't seem in any very significant way to be outside the spirit of the current rules (particularly, as Matt points out, the particular challenges around the the fact that he is PM).

Rather than doubling down on outdoor exercise I'd much rather see more analysis from the government of where transmission is occurring and what can be done about it.  Compared to the March lockdown more people are working, more shops are open, supermarkets controlling numbers and social distancing significantly less etc etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 12, 2021, 02:21:18 pm
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??


(And wot Matt sed)

The reason people care is nothing to do with he did. It is because people are being prosecuted for doing much the same things.

He's the PM: he sets rules for the public to follow so should follow them himself.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on January 12, 2021, 02:26:53 pm
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??


(And wot Matt sed)
I'm pleased he got caught doing this, it sets a precedent that might reduce the chances of more kneejerk tightening of travel/excersice regs. It might incentivise the government to look for more fruitful areas to reduce the R value.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 12, 2021, 02:27:44 pm
The reason people care is nothing to do with he did. It is because people are being prosecuted for doing much the same things.

Are they? I thought that fines for this sort of thing had been waived?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 12, 2021, 02:33:42 pm
I am not up to date with every fine issued across the UK Will so I won't debate that. I don't know for example, how far the cars parked in Dimmingsdale had travelled.

The point is the government has said nothing to indicate that travelling a few miles is wrong- Patel has made noises in support of police fining people in fact.

So the issue is about what the government messages to the public are, and whether they lead by example from the top.

Surely you can see the wider point here?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nik at work on January 12, 2021, 02:58:12 pm
Nope, Boris bike riding is a steaming bag of storm in a teacup bullshit nothing news.
Let’s haul the gov across the coals for their actual mistakes, rather than focussing on crap like this.

Two women out for a walk some miles from home subject to excessively harsh treatment from police say press. Fine torn up and forgotten.

PM goes for bike ride some miles from home, press ask did he drive? We need answers! Unacceptable behaviour!! Let’s drag out all our comedy stock photo images of Bojo over the years and have a good old indignant laugh at the fat pompous idiot, ho ho ho how clever we are...

Certainly seems like one rule for them and another for us...

Sorry but this pointless, waste of time crap boils my piss. Surely there are better things to talk about? And to think we mock regional newspapers for their “SEAGULL STEALS CHIPS” headlines. We essentially have national news story of “man rides bike”, Christ...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on January 12, 2021, 03:06:41 pm
I'm pretty chill about the whole Boris going biking thing, and agree that focusing on
1) the dumbass decision not to lock down before Christmas
and
2) what do we do now
and
3) how do we fix TTI and not fuck up vaccines
are all a better focus for the media. Or even giving Hancock shit for saying he fully supported the police in the mint-tea-ramble debacle before the saying he didn't know anything about the case  :slap:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: shark on January 12, 2021, 03:18:34 pm
Nope, Boris bike riding is a steaming bag of storm in a teacup bullshit nothing news.
Let’s haul the gov across the coals for their actual mistakes, rather than focussing on crap like this.

Two women out for a walk some miles from home subject to excessively harsh treatment from police say press. Fine torn up and forgotten.

Sorry but this pointless, waste of time crap boils my piss. Surely there are better things to talk about? And to think we mock regional newspapers for their “SEAGULL STEALS CHIPS” headlines. We essentially have national news story of “man rides bike”, Christ...

Not disagreeing with the thrust of your rant but this is thread about climbing during COVID and the above incidents are highly relevant to climbers who are agonising about whether they can or should drive to nearby crags and if so how far and how they might defend their actions if approached by the police.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: petejh on January 12, 2021, 03:33:39 pm
BoJo's the PM and as pointed out requires a team of security and can't just pop out his front door for a safe stroll or cycle.

Climbers, aren't.

End of story.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mrjonathanr on January 12, 2021, 04:04:45 pm
there is nothing wrong imo with him cycling like that.

What is wrong is the message that the public could be fined for similar. It is the discrepancy and the messaging which needs sorting  :wall:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 12, 2021, 04:50:43 pm
Surrey Police and Crime Commissioner David Munro:
Quote
"The fact we're having to debate whether the Prime Minister broke the rules or not is proof we need more clarity about them isn't it?"
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on January 12, 2021, 07:51:22 pm
Just for nik at work:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/786619183525789706/798479910460981293/16104428260641226243832067666812.png)

HONK!!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tc on January 12, 2021, 11:34:54 pm
Seven miles from Downing Street isn't far enough. The cunt should have kept going.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on January 13, 2021, 08:26:06 am
 :lol: very good.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 13, 2021, 08:38:46 am
Police were at roaches again yesterday checking where people were from. Staffs police ain't messing around this time again
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Krank on January 13, 2021, 12:05:58 pm
Police were at roaches again yesterday checking where people were from. Staffs police ain't messing around this time again
are they fine with folk from leek going up?

cheers
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 13, 2021, 12:34:17 pm
Sounds like it. Or maybe Shaz gets clearance due to once being crowned the third strongest man in Flash?

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Duma on January 13, 2021, 12:49:44 pm
not clear if it was just the kebab eaters fined, assume there wasn't 7 of them??

https://www.burnham-on-sea.com/news/police-issue-7-fixed-penalty-notices-to-drivers-from-bristol-parked-in-cheddar-gorge/
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on January 13, 2021, 02:06:05 pm
I'd been broadly supportive until now but this is the final straw. When people are not at liberty to fulfill that most basic of human urges - to drive to Cheddar Gorge and "sit and eat kebabs" - we may as well be living in North Korea.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on January 13, 2021, 02:14:29 pm
Kebab send train!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 13, 2021, 02:22:21 pm
Kebab send train!

Don’t forget to keep your engine running fiend ;)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on January 13, 2021, 07:52:00 pm
Sounds like it. Or maybe Shaz gets clearance due to once being crowned the third strongest man in Flash?

2nd on my last strongman effort there.
There are OK with people from leek visiting. They don't check your address. They count fingers
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on January 13, 2021, 08:07:13 pm
Knowing Leek, they probably check for sufficient webbing in-between........
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Krank on January 13, 2021, 09:30:04 pm
There are OK with people from leek visiting. They don't check your address. They count fingers

Cheers mark
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sxrxg on January 24, 2021, 07:48:20 am
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19034313.travellers-london-southampton-sent-home-exercising-portland/

I can't believe people think travelling from London, that is over 100 miles away, to a highly visible area where there is a history of problems with the locals is a good idea at this current time...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 24, 2021, 07:54:09 am
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19034313.travellers-london-southampton-sent-home-exercising-portland/

I can't believe people think travelling from London, that is over 100 miles away, to a highly visible area where there is a history of problems with the locals is a good idea at this current time...

Personally I can’t believe this is where police resources are allocated to!
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on January 24, 2021, 09:55:44 am
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19034313.travellers-london-southampton-sent-home-exercising-portland/

I can't believe people think travelling from London, that is over 100 miles away, to a highly visible area where there is a history of problems with the locals is a good idea at this current time...

Personally I can’t believe this is where police resources are allocated to!

It is infuriating that 10 months in we are still wasting police resources on small numbers of people exercising outdoors in open spaces.

Meanwhile, nothing is being done about the widespread work place abuse of the rules to force people in to unsafe work environments unnecessarily.

Nor is anything being done to stop the abuse of key worker designations that are causing huge numbers of children to be back in school. It looks like cases among children are going to switch back to growth this week.

Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.

The abuse is even going on in some NHS departments. I don't know how widespread this is, but I know someone who works in a non-covid department who was told not to isolate after giving prolonged treatment to a patient who turned out to have covid. They were then told not to get tested after developing symptoms themselves, not to take time off work while awaiting results for that test, were pressured to still come in to work when the test came back positive, and were pressured not to pass on colleague details to Test and Trace.

Minor transgressions outdoors by individuals are irrelevant if nothing is done about these widespread abuses.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SamT on January 24, 2021, 09:59:58 am
The police had a duty to respond to a report from a member of the public, Which I suspect involed two plod in a panda car driving down and having a word. Hardly a massive allocation of resources.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on January 24, 2021, 10:10:14 am
Its not an isolated example though. There are countless examples of police patrols heading to outdoor spots preemptively looking to fine people and send people home when they are posing next to no transmission risk.

These checkups should be saved for the offices with the full car parks and the construction sites with cramped meeting rooms etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on January 24, 2021, 10:14:44 am
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19034313.travellers-london-southampton-sent-home-exercising-portland/

I can't believe people think travelling from London, that is over 100 miles away, to a highly visible area where there is a history of problems with the locals is a good idea at this current time...

Personally I can’t believe this is where police resources are allocated to!

It is infuriating that 10 months in we are still wasting police resources on small numbers of people exercising outdoors in open spaces.

Meanwhile, nothing is being done about the widespread work place abuse of the rules to force people in to unsafe work environments unnecessarily.

Nor is anything being done to stop the abuse of key worker designations that are causing huge numbers of children to be back in school. It looks like cases among children are going to switch back to growth this week.

Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.

The abuse is even going on in some NHS departments. I don't know how widespread this is, but I know someone who works in a non-covid department who was told not to isolate after giving prolonged treatment to a patient who turned out to have covid. They were then told not to get tested after developing symptoms themselves, not to take time off work while awaiting results for that test, were pressured to still come in to work when the test came back positive, and were pressured not to pass on colleague details to Test and Trace.

Minor transgressions outdoors by individuals are irrelevant if nothing is done about these widespread abuses.

100% this
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 24, 2021, 10:16:54 am
Its not an isolated example though. There are countless examples of police patrols heading to outdoor spots preemptively looking to fine people and send people home when they are posing next to no transmission risk.

These checkups should be saved for the offices with the full car parks and the construction sites with cramped meeting rooms etc.

Completely agree. I just don’t see that checking up on where people have come from to do some exercise in the outdoors is the right use of police resources. To be fair if they got a call from someone then they would need to attend .
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 24, 2021, 10:29:02 am
None of this reflects well on the climbers - and by association (to many of the public) climbers in general.

Which can be an issue when there are access concerns.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: macca7 on January 24, 2021, 10:32:32 am
Surely the problem here is with the people travelling?

If they hadn't driven the police wouldn't have been contacted and the resources allocated.

I want to climb as much as the next person but going outside of your local area is not allowed and we need to deal with that for a bit.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 24, 2021, 10:41:19 am

Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.


The people I know that work for the home office have been working from home since last March. The other government departments I know about (I regularly work for several) are all doing the same and have been told they will be at home for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 24, 2021, 10:41:57 am
Travelling: Yes of course.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on January 24, 2021, 10:43:20 am

Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.


The people I know that work for the home office have been working from home since last March. The other government departments I know about (I regularly work for several) are all doing the same and have been told they will be at home for the foreseeable future.

Shapps is copping a load this morning as the Guardians Sunday scoop was the DVLA Swansea making people work when they should have been isolating etc...

(Soz not really relevant to the thread)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: sdm on January 24, 2021, 11:03:45 am

Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.


The people I know that work for the home office have been working from home since last March. The other government departments I know about (I regularly work for several) are all doing the same and have been told they will be at home for the foreseeable future.

I think it varies a lot between teams. The people I know in the Home Office, Foreign Office and DfT are all back in the office for some or all of their time.

They were all full-time WFH during the spring and early summer. The only civil servant in my close circle who has remained full-time WFH works with DWP and DEFRA.

It is a similar story among my circle in the private sector.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on January 24, 2021, 11:07:07 am
Surely the problem here is with the people travelling?

If they hadn't driven the police wouldn't have been contacted and the resources allocated.

I want to climb as much as the next person but going outside of your local area is not allowed and we need to deal with that for a bit.

To be clear I haven’t travelled for climbing but my opinion is that it should be fine. It causes very minimal transmission risk and it is a nonsense that we can’t travel to climb. The issue here is that yet again the police allocate resources where they could have been better deployed elsewhere.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on January 24, 2021, 02:22:23 pm
I think it varies a lot between teams.

To be fair, I only know the legal teams.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bonjoy on February 16, 2021, 05:08:29 pm
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-respond-claims-ice-climbers-5004845

The statement made by Derbyshire police in this article following on from complaints about climbers on Kinder Downfall, is interesting.
Quote
"Without knowing the exact circumstances – if the people were in a group, were in pairs climbing or were from the same household – then it is not possible to make a judgment about whether this was indeed a breach of legislation."

"There are no limits given in law to how far someone may travel for exercise, however, you are only allowed to exercise with one other person who is not in your household or bubble."



Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on February 16, 2021, 06:03:41 pm
It's interesting. And very sensible and non-provocative - it's worth including their refreshingly calm plea:

Quote
"Our continued advice to people is to follow the government guidance to stay as local as you can - whether for exercise or any other reason – in order to help limit the spread of the coronavirus."

But not nearly as fun as going to the original Derbyshire Times article linked from that one, and reading the ceaseless outpouring of morally indignant smugly sanctimonious incensed outrage that makes all the climbers' judgementalism and snitching on each other during the first lockdown look like a cat's fart.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on February 16, 2021, 06:41:33 pm
Favourite comment;

Quote
Where can I get a pair of covid breeches?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on February 16, 2021, 06:44:08 pm
Could just wear a facemask as a posing pouch....
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on February 17, 2021, 11:40:50 am
Could just wear a facemask as a posing pouch....

Make sure your 'nose' isn't peeping out...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on February 21, 2021, 07:43:22 pm
Heard from a friend that the police were up at Almscliff (actually at the crag) moving people on.

A mate was climbing with one other person near Big Greeny. He says:
Quote
It seemed like they were asking everyone to go home who didn't live within walking distance. We both said we'd leave and we asked what they considered local (quite politely) and they said that if people didn't leave they would fine them anyway and leave it to individuals to challenge the fine in court.

Quote
It wasn't clear if it was the distance or the fact we'd driven there that bothered them. I was too scared of getting fined to ask that though.


This is pretty shocking in my view. The shaky legal case for not being "local" is one thing, but what really gets me is the refusal to clarify how they're enforcing the law and relying on intimidation in the form of a fine to stop people asking questions. This completely goes against the Engage, Explain, Encourage, Enforce approach recommended by the College of Policing.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on February 21, 2021, 07:50:34 pm
Un-fucking real.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on February 21, 2021, 07:53:45 pm
I guess filming these interactions is probably the best way - seems like plenty of times police have backed down after footage of them looking like a prick goes on the media
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Johnny Brown on February 21, 2021, 08:34:55 pm
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine. Maybe they knew that but wanted to use the threat. Did anyone actually get fined?

My mate Chris used to regularly walk to Almscliff from Leeds. One day I met him at Burbage, he'd set off to walk to Scotland but got to Skipton and changed his mind and followed the pennine way down to the Peak instead. My impression is that the covid regs have been worded to allow for the fact that not everyone has the same needs, abilities or local resources.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on February 21, 2021, 08:52:56 pm
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine. Maybe they knew that but wanted to use the threat. Did anyone actually get fined?

You need to read up on fixed penalty notices. There's no appeal mechanism. They've been withdrawn by some Police Forces (do some scrolling on Adam Wagner's Twitter feed, it's explained on there).
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on February 21, 2021, 08:58:26 pm
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine.

Technically, you commit the offence and they offer you a fixed penalty to discharge it, which you have the option to accept. If you don't accept it (for instance, because you don't think you have committed an offence), you may get charged and summonsed to court. Not sure most people realise that and I don't know if the police explain it properly. There's no appeal process for a fixed penalty (presumbaly because technically you accept it), but some fixed penalites do get withdrawn. You could, I suppose, judicially review the decision to issue a penalty, but that would be longwinded and potentially expensive.

[edit for clarity]
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: remus on February 21, 2021, 09:11:08 pm
Some fixed penalites get withdrawn though.

Didn't Duma have a speeding FPN withdrawn after he challenged it by letter? Something to do with the popo issuing the fine because they (incorrectly) had his vehicle down as a van rather than a camper.

Seems like a risky route to go down for a covid FPN though given the lack of clarity in the legislation about what counts as local exercise.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Ru on February 21, 2021, 09:16:33 pm
Didn't Duma have a speeding FPN withdrawn after he challenged it by letter?

It's an informal process though.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Loos3-tools on February 22, 2021, 12:42:13 am
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine.

Technically, you commit the offence and they offer you a fixed penalty to discharge it, which you have the option to accept. If you don't accept it (for instance, because you don't think you have committed an offence), you may get charged and summonsed to court. Not sure most people realise that and I don't know if the police explain it properly. There's no appeal process for a fixed penalty (presumbaly because technically you accept it), but some fixed penalites do get withdrawn. You could, I suppose, judicially review the decision to issue a penalty, but that would be longwinded and potentially expensive.

[edit for clarity]

I can imagine how that would go. ‘Sorry officer I refute your order to desist from climbing and will take that up in court’ Followed by being dragged around in the cow pats under demon wall roof before being kicked in the groin and having ones skull cracked by a truncheon then flung off the top of the gypsy boulder. No doubt the grim crime scene in Leeds has been furloughed so the hired goons have little else to do but stop the spread of the Wirus at the windiest overrated hell hole in Yorkshire. TBF I’d be thanking them for moving me on.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on February 22, 2021, 08:57:48 am
Trust whoever was involved at Almscliff has gone to the press.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: gollum on February 22, 2021, 09:13:30 am
North Yorkshire Police have taken a very odd draconian position throughout, directed I assume by the PCC, although this feels like an “operational policing” issue and not her responsibility.

They are possibly in competition with Derbyshire.

Think you’d not be hassled if you took the short trip to Caley or Ilkley as WYP are likely too busy with actual policing to get involved in this type of showboating.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 22, 2021, 09:17:27 am
Interesting that Derbyshire seem to have got back in their box after the farrago around the women being fined walking at the reservoir. Their comments on the Kinder Downfall story linked above were actually quite sensible which is a considerable change of tone.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on February 22, 2021, 09:19:55 am
Further to my above post I've heard more.

One climber was at DWR where, in all likelihood, there was a group of people climbing near to each other, even if not as part of one group. He was told to go home (Leeds). Some people who had driven from Manchester were issued fines. It's not clear whether this is because they were in a group or because they'd driven.

The police told a group at the Keel boulder that driving from Leeds was fine (regardless that they'd just told the Leeds residents under Big Greeny to move on or be fined).

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Liamhutch89 on February 22, 2021, 09:32:16 am
In future then, my tactic will be to try and sweet talk my way into remaining at the crag, lie about where I live if necessary, then if caught out and fined, run away before it's issued like we used to as kids and come back for the pad later. Sorted.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on February 22, 2021, 09:45:11 am

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

Maybe this is the crag police we've always heard about, and they are sending people home if footwork looks shoddy or they are using dodgy beta.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: fuzzysheep01 on February 22, 2021, 10:20:52 am
I was over by Dreamland when all this went down at DWR yesterday so heard a lot of the confrontation. There were probably about 15 people in the DWR-Crucifix area - presumably a number of different groups, including a couple of families. When the first cop arrived it was pretty confrontational - he was pointing at people saying 'you're not 2m apart' etc. They asked where people had driven from and said that those who had driven from Horsforth and Meanwood were not 'staying local'. but didn't challenge the bloke who said he'd come from Otley. They also then seemed to imply that the biggest issue was crossing the county border as they said 'isn't there somewhere in West Yorkshire you could climb?'. They seemed to get into an argument with some of the climbers about exercise - the first cop was saying something along the lines of 'I can't go the gym, so why is it okay for you to do this?'. At this point I bailed, so didn't hear the outcome. I passed a couple and a solo boulderer down at South Cave on the way out, and at least two of them had been given fines having been climbing in a household bubble (not sure where they travelled from). On the way out I could see the cops coming back down and speaking to a group at Underhand.

Not quite sure what their criteria was really - all seemed a bit contradictory and possibly deliberately unclear. I'd say they were more interested in giving out a few fines and creating a bit of a deterrent for people to come out, rather than actually attempting to explain what is 'reasonable' and what is not.

One of the more surreal crag experiences I've had.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on February 22, 2021, 10:45:21 am
I believe this will be discussed in the local BMC area meeting on Wednesday.
If all that has been stated here is correct (and I don't see any reason to doubt it) then I would encourage anybody who has a first hand account to make a formal complaint to North Yorkshire Police. If this doesn't go anywhere then take it to the ombudsman.
The police enforcement must be consistent, transparent, and lawful. It sounds like the officers present were none of these things.
I'll be asking on Wednesday that the BMC make a representation to North Yorkshire Police on behalf of climbers and walkers. It might be that the rules are relaxed at the end of March, but I do think that there needs to be some pushback, not least because we might find ourselves in the same position again in the short/medium term future.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on February 22, 2021, 10:53:00 am

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

Maybe this is the crag police we've always heard about, and they are sending people home if footwork looks shoddy or they are using dodgy beta.

Dab...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 22, 2021, 12:16:38 pm

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

Maybe this is the crag police we've always heard about, and they are sending people home if footwork looks shoddy or they are using dodgy beta.

Dab...

ACDab?


*Sorry, sorry, bad taste and expressing an anti-police sentiment I don’t in fact hold, but, shit, it’s Monday, FFS, who isn’t a bit cranky on a Monday?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on February 22, 2021, 12:36:50 pm
I was over by Dreamland when all this went down at DWR yesterday so heard a lot of the confrontation. There were probably about 15 people in the DWR-Crucifix area - presumably a number of different groups, including a couple of families.

As much as the policing sounds like a load of cockcheese, this initial situation sounds pretty foolish. With all the grey areas, police discretion, guidelines vs rules etc etc, it's pretty important to avoid drawing attention to oneself, stick to the spirit of avoiding covid transmission, and try to stick to the general, clearer rules about social distancing and groups. 15 people in that area seems like a red rag to a North Rigton bobby.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 22, 2021, 12:40:10 pm
I was over by Dreamland when all this went down at DWR yesterday so heard a lot of the confrontation. There were probably about 15 people in the DWR-Crucifix area - presumably a number of different groups, including a couple of families.

As much as the policing sounds like a load of cockcheese, this initial situation sounds pretty foolish. With all the grey areas, police discretion, guidelines vs rules etc etc, it's pretty important to avoid drawing attention to oneself, stick to the spirit of avoiding covid transmission, and try to stick to the general, clearer rules about social distancing and groups. 15 people in that area seems like a red rag to a North Rigton bobby.

I think two things can simultaneously be true - that there were too many people under DWR and that if the copper had gone 'guys, we can't have everyone so close, please can you spread out to do your climbing' there would have been no problem.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on February 22, 2021, 12:49:30 pm
But people being there from Manchester was a problem.

As was them not managing it themselves.

Interested to know why a group at the keel got away with it too, when they should only be in a pair.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 22, 2021, 12:59:33 pm
But people being there from Manchester was a problem.


Not in law, so you cant be fined for coming from Manchester. You could be fined for being in a group I agree.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Davo on February 22, 2021, 01:06:47 pm
I agree about keeping a relative low profile and avoiding situations that are likely to provoke issues. However I just don’t understand what the police are doing there in the first place. Surely there resources could be better allocated elsewhere? Unless of course (as someone else pointed out ) Leeds has no real crime at the moment?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on February 22, 2021, 01:08:46 pm
Hopefully someone’s GoPro was running as the whole thing sounds very entertaining.

As much as I don’t agree with the policing, hopefully this will be a bit of a kick up the bum for whoever was in the group at DWR or any other big groups at the crag. You’re not really going to be able to maintain social distancing in that sort of setting and there are few crags where climbers are more on display to the general public.

If it was a group of 15 people sat around having a picnic and a few beers in the park most on here would be rolling their eyes I reckon, and to the outside observer the DWR scene prob didn’t look much different.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on February 22, 2021, 01:11:05 pm
It does indeed sound like a group of climbers had made some less-than-sensible decisions. Anybody who was in a group other than a pair or a household group will even have been in breach of the law - those people should rightly have been challenged.
That is not an excuse for the police to do a shoddy job and to exercise their own personal frustrations (if I can't go to a gym then you can't climb). All I'm asking is that they are consistent, transparent, and lawful.

I thought we were generally in favour of parliamentary sovereignty on this board?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on February 22, 2021, 01:11:16 pm
I agree about keeping a relative low profile and avoiding situations that are likely to provoke issues. However I just don’t understand what the police are doing there in the first place. Surely there resources could be better allocated elsewhere? Unless of course (as someone else pointed out ) Leeds has no real crime at the moment?

Almscliff is in N Yorks and a lot closer to Harrogate than Leeds. You can also see most of the crag from neighbouring posh N Rigton so wouldn’t be surprised if there’d been a few calls to 101 from concerned residents.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: SA Chris on February 22, 2021, 01:11:40 pm
Agree, but it's probably easy pickings for them - lots of cars on verge, go have a wander and see, rather than having to travel around neighbourhoods checking to see if too much noise coming from one house, or too many cars parked outside.

Also think 15 folk in 1 small area is a bit daft.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: nai on February 22, 2021, 01:16:45 pm

Not in law, so you cant be fined for coming from Manchester


Ah right, is this one of the loopholes where the guidance and law say different things?

Sounds like there's a connies savvy copper who knew the Cliff would be busy on a warm, damp, blustery day.  Inside job. all the way.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 22, 2021, 02:27:44 pm

If it was a group of 15 people sat around having a picnic and a few beers in the park most on here would be rolling their eyes I reckon, and to the outside observer the DWR scene prob didn’t look much different.

I am still firmly in the camp that whilst not ideal, groups of people outside having a beer/picnic should be tolerated if not actively encouraged yet because it is far, far better that activity take place outside than inside. Sounds like London parks were full of this this weekend with no repercussions and rightly so. I do take your point about the optics but as Will said it doesn't excuse the police approach.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on February 22, 2021, 02:39:00 pm
Another comparison to think about is one of children's play areas. Lots of people, adults and children alike (if you're not using the swings and slides yourself why did you even have kids?), exercising in the same vicinity on the same apparatus. Nobody has a problem with this. It's not especially dissimilar from a group of people from different households/bubbles etc using the same bit of a crag.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: duncan on February 22, 2021, 03:01:09 pm
So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

...the first cop was saying something along the lines of 'I can't go the gym, so why is it okay for you to do this?'

The police enforcement must be consistent, transparent, and lawful. It sounds like the officers present were none of these things.

Arbitrary and heavy-handed behaviour when officers are unfamiliar with the ways of those they are policing? I feel there could be parallels drawn here somehow...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: steveri on February 22, 2021, 03:53:51 pm
So easy to revert to type. Previously uber-niche venue a couple of miles from home, nobody goes there. Met a bloke up there. Had a nice distanced chat. Get nowhere working on my traverse. Establish we don't mind sharing holds and try a roof together, naturally start spotting each other's backs. My arms aren't 2m long.

3 more people arrive (big family I don't know). Everyone well meaning and cautious but there's too many of us. Tired, went home for tea anyway.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on February 22, 2021, 04:53:47 pm
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

Sounds like the Almscliff policing wasn’t one of NY polices finest moments - but Manchester >> Almscliff is certainly taking the piss and deserved of a fine imho.

If I’d made such a journey, I’d have no complaints at getting fined.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: abarro81 on February 22, 2021, 05:01:35 pm
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

But they already are advisory :shrug:
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Loos3-tools on February 22, 2021, 05:18:25 pm
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

Sounds like the Almscliff policing wasn’t one of NY polices finest moments - but Manchester >> Almscliff is certainly taking the piss and deserved of a fine imho.

If I’d made such a journey, I’d have no complaints at getting fined.

You’re having a laugh surely? Such a journey ffs. What exactly is going to happen? What’s the difference between driving to Wilton or Brownstones or Almscliff? It’s tedious pedantry and bully boy policing of bugger all
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on February 22, 2021, 05:23:50 pm
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

But they already are advisory :shrug:

Absolutely...it was established ages ago with the women fined for peppermint tea walk fiasco that driving for exercise is legal and there's no legal limit on distance.

I'm so conflicted about all this though. On the one hand I'm totally outraged that the police are spending their time on such a pointless endeavour, harassing people out for a climb. And as above, I don't think there are any legal grounds for the fines (except where they were gathered in a group under Demon Wall...).

Yet on the other, I personally have been staying within a 30 minute drive for my climbing, so someone coming from Manchester does feel like taking the piss (there were several people at Caley the previous weekend who I know had come about that far too). Likewise if I'd been at the Cliff and saw that many people at Demon Wall I definitely wouldn't expect to join them.

Who flipping knows.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Loos3-tools on February 22, 2021, 05:37:20 pm
What is the difference between travelling for 30 mins or 60mins apart from the right to virtue signalling
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Paul B on February 22, 2021, 05:49:37 pm
Absolutely...it was established ages ago with the women fined for peppermint tea walk fiasco that driving for exercise is legal and there's no legal limit on distance.

The NPCC guidance (https://paas-s3-broker-prod-lon-6453d964-1d1a-432a-9260-5e0ba7d2fc51.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/2021-01/COVID-19-briefing-Tier-4-Health-Protection-Regs-060120.pdf) on the subject is always worth a re-post.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 22, 2021, 06:23:39 pm
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

Sounds like the Almscliff policing wasn’t one of NY polices finest moments - but Manchester >> Almscliff is certainly taking the piss and deserved of a fine imho.

If I’d made such a journey, I’d have no complaints at getting fined.

Sorry to be pernickety, but taking the piss is not yet an offence! Whether you think it deserved a fine or not is completely irrelevant from a legal perspective.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Tony S on February 22, 2021, 06:47:21 pm
Astonishingly large number of people happy with the arbitrary interpretation of legislation by police officers.

They do say the public get the Government they deserve.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: teestub on February 22, 2021, 07:10:04 pm
Astonishingly large number of people happy with the arbitrary interpretation of legislation by police officers.


Not seen anyone say they are happy with it
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on February 22, 2021, 07:13:58 pm
What is the difference between travelling for 30 mins or 60mins apart from the right to virtue signalling

Nothing beyond a long boring list of slightly increased risks that are all very unlikely to actually materialise.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: tomtom on February 22, 2021, 07:25:40 pm
(Deleted my post. Life’s too short etc..)
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on February 22, 2021, 07:57:48 pm
Forgot to say, thanks to Will and Fuzzysheep for posting about this and providing useful information.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Loos3-tools on February 24, 2021, 08:14:20 pm
Bend over and be shafted, vaccine passports at the ready, one way ticket to the ‘Cliff’

https://youtu.be/vGE5HjyCAOg
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Wood FT on February 24, 2021, 08:25:20 pm
Needs South Park’s Sadam voice
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on February 24, 2021, 08:37:58 pm
The general feeling of the BMC Yorkshire meeting is that if a North Yorkshire Police officer should come to your house and demand to have sex with your daughter then you should just let him.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Loos3-tools on February 24, 2021, 09:52:11 pm
Not surprising is it, they're paralysed by double think.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Loos3-tools on February 24, 2021, 09:53:17 pm
Needs South Park’s Sadam voice

You're obsessed with Saddam you are
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Stu Littlefair on March 08, 2021, 08:01:19 am
Looks like Derbyshire police intend to crack down on people travelling to the peak over the next few weeks.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-hand-out-covid-fines-5082254

Presumably trying to send a message as people anticipate the lifting of restrictions?

Of particular interest to some here will be the fines given to 4 from sheffield at longstone edge...
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Loos3-tools on March 08, 2021, 08:30:41 am
I can imagine the conversation. What are you doing here? Walking my dog in the countryside officer. You do realise that under the new government mandate that is illegal? As is getting to close to family and friends. I suggest you go home and sit in your house. Enjoy Netflix and UBI and forget your life ever existed. 

No human rights abuses there clearly 😬
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 08, 2021, 08:48:24 am
I can imagine the conversation. What are you doing here? Walking my dog in the countryside officer. You do realise that under the new government mandate that is illegal? As is getting to close to family and friends. I suggest you go home and sit in your house. Enjoy Netflix and UBI and forget your life ever existed. 

No human rights abuses there clearly 😬

Straw man.

And where did the dog walking come from? Can you point to the mandate barring dog walking?

Adding false colour and hyperbole, does not strengthen your position.

There is a fella that stands in the centre of Torquay, loudly and colourfully berating all who pass, about their sins and what awaits them in hell. He’s very good, from a certain perspective. Very detailed, clear even.
People tend to avoid him.

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 08, 2021, 09:00:14 am
Looks like Derbyshire police intend to crack down on people travelling to the peak over the next few weeks.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-hand-out-covid-fines-5082254

Presumably trying to send a message as people anticipate the lifting of restrictions?

Of particular interest to some here will be the fines given to 4 from sheffield at longstone edge...

Still don't understand how issuing these fines is legitimate policing given distance travelled isn't limited in law. This has even been acknowledged by other forces: https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/police-chief-clarifies-you-might-5069444
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Fiend on March 08, 2021, 09:09:46 am
Sounds like the group of 4 at Longstone might have been, well, a group of 4. Thus an obvious target.

I'd be interested to hear more information about the pair climbing - where and why were they targetted?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 08, 2021, 09:22:00 am
Looks like Derbyshire police intend to crack down on people travelling to the peak over the next few weeks.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-hand-out-covid-fines-5082254

Presumably trying to send a message as people anticipate the lifting of restrictions?

Of particular interest to some here will be the fines given to 4 from sheffield at longstone edge...

Still don't understand how issuing these fines is legitimate policing given distance travelled isn't limited in law. This has even been acknowledged by other forces: https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/police-chief-clarifies-you-might-5069444

They are probably not. I’m pretty sure you are not obligated to accept a fixed penalty notice and may opt to go to the Magistrate. In this case, it is well publicised that the distance travelled is not constrained by law, so cannot be the basis of an offence.
Group size is a different matter, etc.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Will Hunt on March 08, 2021, 09:39:37 am
Following the recent Yorkshire area meeting where people were fairly unbothered that North Yorkshire Police were making up the rules, I wrote to the BMC and Dave Turnbull raised the issue with North Yorkshire Police (thanks, Dave). There's certain things in their response which are easily argued against, though I'm not suggesting we do so at this point. Here is the response for anyone who might be interested.

Quote
Thank you for your enquiry below regarding the term ‘local’.  The legislation states that people can legally be outside of their home if they have a ‘reasonable’ excuse, and taking exercise locally is defined as one of those reasons. There is no further definition of ‘local’ provided under the legislation, so the approach NYP are taking in this matter is, it is neither reasonable or essential to travel lengthy distances to take daily exercise, when it can be taken from the doorstep. We do not expect people to be travelling multiple miles in a car to take their exercise in North Yorkshire.

 

The legislation does state people can travel to access an open space, but this should not be outside their village, town, city or locality. I am fully aware climbers are limited to locality because of your chosen sport, but we are in exceptional times, where we are all being asked to adapt our behaviours and our daily routines. So if a person’s preferred method of exercise would result in a breach of the regulations, they should look to either change that exercise or find an alternative method for the duration of the national lockdown. Hopefully the ‘roadmap’ set out by the government will mean at the end of the month the ‘Stay at Home’ message will be lifted. Until then NYP have a role to play in following the 4 e’s approach of engage, explain, encourage, enforce and applying the legislation fairly and with common sense.

 

Ultimately, the nation is in lockdown and the reason we are being asked to limit our movement and why the police are enforcing this legislation – to save lives.

 

I hope this provides a bit of clarity,
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Bradders on March 08, 2021, 09:51:52 am
Quote
I hope this provides a bit of clarity,

*sigh*

Even the police can't distinguish between the legislation and the guidance.
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: BrutusTheBear on March 08, 2021, 09:57:49 am
RE: fines.. I seem to remember reading somewhere that if you're presented with a fine and you don't pay it, it will then go to court, the trouble is there is a massive backlog for courts to deal with and therefore COVID fines of this kind weren't making it to court and expiring before they can be dealt with.. (I'm sure a legal bod on here will correct this if I'm wrong).

Seems that some police forces are getting a little over zealous. Not sure if I've shared this anecdote on here but a month or so ago I was driving home from a lamp session at midnightish and about 30mins away from home. I noticed lights coming up behind me, as it was icy and I dislike being followed at night I pulled in to a lay-by. The car behind stopped next to me... It was the police.  I wound my window down.  'Everything OK?' they asked. I explained that I was fine, pulled in when I saw them coming up behind and being careful coz it's icy.  'Very sensible Sir, have a good night' was the reply and off they went.  Bravo D&C police. 
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Steve R on March 08, 2021, 10:58:09 am

Still don't understand how issuing these fines is legitimate policing given distance travelled isn't limited in law. This has even been acknowledged by other forces: https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/police-chief-clarifies-you-might-5069444

Great stuff that the East Riding is open to climbing visitors from afar if you make it through the road blocks.  I've been in touch with the landowner of the county's premiere venue.  She's happy for climbing in small to medium socially distanced groups to take place but no abseiling on the left wall as the moss and  one of the nettles is very rare.  Bloc bouldering in soft shoes fine.   Masks are to be worn at all times (also good for the 'optics') and liquid chalk only.  PLEASE park considerately.  Come on guys, let's not lose this:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/st_austins_stone-12088#photos&gid=1&pid=1
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark20 on March 08, 2021, 11:00:00 am
Presumably the 4 from Sheffield at Longstone Edge were fined for breaking social distancing regs, either car sharing or meeting more than 1 other from household. As a spokesperson for Derbyshire Police has said "There are no limits given in law to how far someone may travel for exercise, however, you are only allowed to exercise with one other person who is not in your household or bubble." In this article previously posted here - https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-respond-claims-ice-climbers-5004845

The two seperately driving to Stanage from Melton (1.5h) and Ipswich (3.5h) I guess comes down to interpretation of the "local" thing. I suppose many would say a 6h+ round trip for a days exercise is a bit much, but that said, if the distance limit isn't defined in law it's still a bit shit and would seem to contravene the above statement from Derbyshire Police!

Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 08, 2021, 11:19:01 am
The lack of specification in distance, allows (at some point) for a court to define it, surely.
Which makes sense, in as much as it depends on the specific circumstances and region in which the activities and journeys take place. Possibly, expecting the Government to predefine this on what amounts to emergency legislation, without extensive debate and study, is unreasonable on our part?
If you are presented with such a penalty and disagree that you have breached legislation, then you have the opportunity to argue it. Assuming you you feel it’s worth it.
In those circumstances, you need to convince a Magistrate that your actions were “ reasonable” and that Magistrate would be expected to determine what constitutes “reasonable” in the given circumstances.

For instance, driving 3.5 hours, in England, at normal speeds, allows you to travel something like 40% of the length of the country. I mean, I could get from Torquay to, say, Loughborough or Leister-ish. Essentially it’s a little hard to achieve that sort of distance without passing several, reasonable, crags or venues. My guess is even 1.5 is daft. Torquay to Bristol. Difficult to justify, surely?
Title: Re: Climbing during CV-19
Post by: mark s on March 08, 2021, 09:23:55 pm
Sounds like the group of 4 at Longstone might have been, well, a group of 4. Thus an obvious target.

I'd be interested to hear more information about the pair climbing - where and why were they targetted?

Travelling 4 adults in a car is asking for trouble at the moment.
I hope these people who are getting fined don't take up real crime after covid restrictions. As I can see them soon getting caught and arrested. If you are going to visit places at least keep a low profile and don't raise suspicion

It doesn't seem the distance is too much an issue unless you are taking the piss.
3 weeks ago some walkers lost a dog at ramshaw, they had travelled 20 miles. The police haven't said anything online regarding that. Even though the owners keep coming back looking for it.  I did point out on a fb roaches group that it was - 10 for 5 nights after it vanished. I said it's either been stolen or dead. Oh that went down well, got accused of being negative  etc etc. Realistic is what I called it.
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