UKBouldering.com
places to visit => conditions reports (isitgreasy on twitter) => Topic started by: spidermonkey09 on December 02, 2022, 03:57:43 pm
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Minor rant but had a move a load of pads someone has stashed under the start of the terrace. Who can possibly think it's a good idea to stash pads there? It was also caked in chalk as if someone has been climbing it when damp.
Thats nonsense. Have them away if they're there next time and do a ukc/fb post to give them back. Not on stashing stuff like that.
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Had they been stashed, or just left there for a bit whilst the owners checked out whether anything else was dry etc.?
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Looked stashed to me. Some had a tarp over them. Anyway if you want to leave some pads while you check out the rest of the crag putting them in a stack underneath one of the most popular problems in the peak ain't a great idea
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Fair points!
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Free pads dude!
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Yoink
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Minor rant but had a move a load of pads someone has stashed under the start of the terrace.
:lol: If you can sit under your project and watch kids riding their stabiliser-equipped bikes down a footpath then you do not need to stash your pads there.
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Indeed. Mentally pathetic scenes
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Not having a go at anyone in particular here, but it’s interesting to me that the focus is on the fact that it’s Burbage rather than it being an unacceptable practice full-stop. I mean, I get that it’s quite a dumb thing to do given they’re more likely to get nicked, but I’m getting a whiff of a double standard. Loads of people who post on UKB visited Badger Cove this summer but I didn’t see a single mention of the eight or so pads stashed there, a couple of which were so far along the process of disintegration that I doubt they’d have survived being pulled back out of the cove via the rope. I’m sure the same situation occurs all over the UK at crags with tricky approaches, and it’s one of those things that loads of us know isn’t okay but, when we find them at the crag, we happily make use of them and don’t complain or suggest that they be removed.
I also think it’s worth pointing out that, while for the vast majority of the climbing population The Terrace is an easy ten-minute stroll, that’s not the case for absolutely everyone who climbs if you factor in things like disability and chronic fatigue. That’s not to say that I think stashing pads is ever acceptable, that you should get a pass if you have a condition that makes getting to the crag more difficult for you than it is for other people, or to get into some virtual-signalling SJW bollocks - I just think that criticising the stashing of pads at The Terrace specifically because of its ease of access from your perspective is a bit blinkered. Over the years I've climbed with multiple people who either wouldn't be able to get there or would find it difficult, and while that doesn't mean that they'd be within their rights to stash pads there to facilitate their climbing, I do think that them doing so wouldn’t be any more of a “mentally pathetic scene” than someone stashing pads at a mountain crag or a sea cliff (or while putting up an 8C+ at a crag that is probably the same distance from the road as The Terrace but just happens to have a pain-in-the-arse descent and require a lot of pads).
Either stashing pads is never, ever acceptable and there’s no difference between leaving them in the middle of the street or half-way up a mountain or at the bottom of a sea-cliff, or there are degrees of acceptability based on how ‘hard’ a problem is to get to and how many pads are needed – in which case who decides what’s hard enough?
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Good post Droyd.
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Droyd I was pissed off cos I had to piss about moving the mats before I could try a problem I wanted to try. I don't have long when I get out these days. Proximity and popularity are relevant as to how inconsiderate it is leaving stuff like this because its pretty inevitable someone would want to try the problem. I don't think this is the best place for a general debate but I'd suggest there is a difference between leaving pads where no one is likely to see them and leaving them where it is inevitable that they will see them and they will also be in the way.
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Either stashing pads is never, ever acceptable and there’s no difference between leaving them in the middle of the street or half-way up a mountain or at the bottom of a sea-cliff, or there are degrees of acceptability based on how ‘hard’ a problem is to get to and how many pads are needed
I’ve never formulated an opinion on what situations I’m pro- or anti-pad stashing in but if I have to pick one extreme or the other then I’m definitely going for the first one. I think we should take our climbing gear home with us. It’s what I’ve always done even when I couldn’t walk very well. The harder you’re climbing the less of an excuse you’ve got.
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I don't even understand why this is a conversation, as it fits the general behaviour pattern of "it's fine to be a bit cheeky but don't get caught." If it really pisses you off, next time tuck something organic inside the foam. With any luck the pad will be savaged by hungry animals and if not it'll soon stink so badly it'll be hilarious.
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Can we split this topic please ?
I think there's a discussion to be had here as clearly stashed things are a thing which happens whether some people like it or not. As I rule I'd say low traffic esoteric areas are fine to stash things at as long as you are considerate and discrete about it, but that's just my two pennies on the subject.
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I agree with a topic split as I think it's a worthy and sensible discussion to have.
My initial thought is: Best avoided in general, but the stringency of that should depend on both the awkwardness of the approach (i.e. the value of stashing) and the likelihood of the stash being discovered and/or the sensitivity of the area (i.e. the detriment of stashing).
The harder you’re climbing the less of an excuse you’ve got.
Why is that?? It's possible, although rare, to have quite a discrepancy between the ability to approach a crag, and the ability to climb up it - especially with bouldering. Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks? I suspect that's the sort of scenario where lugging pads in for a while could be debilitating, compared to 1 minute of anaerobic cranking with long rests in between.
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The harder you’re climbing the less of an excuse you’ve got.
Why is that?? It's possible, although rare, to have quite a discrepancy between the ability to approach a crag, and the ability to climb up it - especially with bouldering. Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks? I suspect that's the sort of scenario where lugging pads in for a while could be debilitating, compared to 1 minute of anaerobic cranking with long rests in between.
Agree. For instance there was a pad stash up at the Lad Stones for ages which was incredibly useful for a lone visitor working on a difficult problem, given the length and steepness of the walk.
Personally I've never stashed pads more than overnight but generally I'm fine with it if it's discrete and "reasonable", the latter being very subjective. Popping them under The Terrace; to me, not reasonable in the slightest for any length of time. Lad Stones; far more reasonable. I'm not sure how much closer to the road Lad Stones would have to be to make it unreasonable though :-\
There was a discussion on here / UKC a while ago after someone stashed an Organic Blubber at the Bowderstone; now that was pathetic.
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Not having a go at anyone in particular here, but it’s interesting to me that the focus is on the fact that it’s Burbage rather than it being an unacceptable practice full-stop. I mean, I get that it’s quite a dumb thing to do given they’re more likely to get nicked, but I’m getting a whiff of a double standard. Loads of people who post on UKB visited Badger Cove this summer but I didn’t see a single mention of the eight or so pads stashed there, a couple of which were so far along the process of disintegration that I doubt they’d have survived being pulled back out of the cove via the rope. I’m sure the same situation occurs all over the UK at crags with tricky approaches, and it’s one of those things that loads of us know isn’t okay but, when we find them at the crag, we happily make use of them and don’t complain or suggest that they be removed.
I also think it’s worth pointing out that, while for the vast majority of the climbing population The Terrace is an easy ten-minute stroll, that’s not the case for absolutely everyone who climbs if you factor in things like disability and chronic fatigue. That’s not to say that I think stashing pads is ever acceptable, that you should get a pass if you have a condition that makes getting to the crag more difficult for you than it is for other people, or to get into some virtual-signalling SJW bollocks - I just think that criticising the stashing of pads at The Terrace specifically because of its ease of access from your perspective is a bit blinkered. Over the years I've climbed with multiple people who either wouldn't be able to get there or would find it difficult, and while that doesn't mean that they'd be within their rights to stash pads there to facilitate their climbing, I do think that them doing so wouldn’t be any more of a “mentally pathetic scene” than someone stashing pads at a mountain crag or a sea cliff (or while putting up an 8C+ at a crag that is probably the same distance from the road as The Terrace but just happens to have a pain-in-the-arse descent and require a lot of pads).
Either stashing pads is never, ever acceptable and there’s no difference between leaving them in the middle of the street or half-way up a mountain or at the bottom of a sea-cliff, or there are degrees of acceptability based on how ‘hard’ a problem is to get to and how many pads are needed – in which case who decides what’s hard enough?
That seems a false dichotomy to me. The hardness of the climbing is only tangentially relevant, in so far as harder climbs often require more pads in order to be safely attempted.
The pads aren't at Badger Cove because the climbs are hard per se, they're there because the probs typically requiring the most visits to complete also need a large number of pads and the approach is fairly horrendous, even with one pad. I'm not sure that a lone climber ferrying back and forth repeatedly across the crumbling slope day after day is a more crag friendly solution, at a place so inaccessible that it is really only visited by climbers. On balance it looks like a pragmatic solution unlikely to offend anyone, except other climbers.
However, not taking them away at the end of the season, or even when they're disintegrating, that is clearly out of order. Whoever put them there needs to go back and sort it out.
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I'm struggling to roll with the argument that stashing pads is never OK.
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Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks?
It's Matt Birch you are thinking of.
Matt Clifford - a cross between Matt Birch and Tim Clifford (ie Shy Yorkshireman 1 and 2) = UKs best boulderer.
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That seems a false dichotomy to me. The hardness of the climbing is only tangentially relevant, in so far as harder climbs often require more pads in order to be safely attempted.
Sorry, poor wording on my part – I meant how hard getting the requisite number of pads to the base of the boulder problem is, which you could calculate based on the difficulty of the approach, how many pads are needed, and how many people there are to carry pads. My issue with that as a criterion for pad-stashing acceptability is that what one person considers a gruelling slog is another’s breezy jaunt in terms of both perspective (a boulderer based in the Lakes is going to have a different idea of an easy walk-in to a Peak lime connoisseur) and physical ability (if the consensus is that the Lad Stones is generally an acceptable place to stash pads and I find The Terrace as difficult to get to as other people find the Lad Stones, then why shouldn’t I stash pads at The Terrace in the interest of fairness?), so where the line is drawn varies between individuals. Badger Cove definitely qualifies as a pain in the arse for the lone boulderer, but with one person at the top and one at the bottom and a length of rope, getting pads from the car to the problems and back is a ten-minute walk-in and a tedious lowering/hauling-up job. Personally I don’t see that as all that bad even in the context of two average climbers going there for the day; in the context of a professional climber projecting something over an extended period and doing so with an entourage of spotters and videographers, stashing feels to me like putting convenience above all else.
Interestingly, my assumption when I replied was that most people were in agreement that stashing wasn’t on, hence why I took that as a starting point. I think that that was based on extrapolation from the US (where consensus seems to be ‘not okay’ for both ecological and land-owner reasons) and the thread on UKC a year or so back about a guy whose stashed pads were nicked from Wharncliffe and most of the responses were very anti-stashing. Admittedly it does seem a bit weird in hindsight to be intuiting consensus on bouldering ethics based on a UKC thread given most of the people on that thread championing the ‘leave no trace’ ethic likely take that to the nth degree by stopping climbing altogether…
Good to see some different takes on the topic, at any rate. It’s interesting to me that arguments for it being situationally acceptable are contingent on pads being well-hidden from other people – while that means that a) they won’t get stolen by climbers or be in their way and b) non-climbers won’t see them and think that they’re rubbish, potentially leading to access issues if landowners find out, it doesn’t address the (to my mind much bigger) ecological issues, in terms of leaving an object that small mammals will gnaw on and get sick as a result of and the fact that intention to come back doesn’t always reflect what happens. I recall a post on here where someone talked about leaving their pad in a sea cave for a short while, life getting in the way, and a storm taking it. You also have the fact that the more acceptable a practice like that gets the more people start to push the envelope in terms of leaving pads for longer, which could get to the point where the final stage of the lifetime of a pad isn’t under a board in a cellar but a permanent, disintegrating feature of a cave somewhere. I suspect that that’s at least started to go on at Badger Cove this summer based on the fact that one of the pads was leaking foam, but haven’t been back to check since late August. On a tangential note I came across a stash of pads at a somewhat obscure Peak lime venue while out on a recce last winter that were presumably left for the duration based on the fact that as far as I understand it the crag only dries out in the summer, and have since heard that stash referred to as ‘reliable’ and one of the benefits of going there.
Ultimately, the argument for stashing is entirely contingent on a vanishingly small minority of people doing it and doing it well (taking care to hide pads, covering them with a tarp, not taking the piss), but that starts to fall apart if either a greater percentage of climbers start doing it or the climbing population increases and the percentage stays the same. More people stashing pads means more pads to be chewed by rodents and found by walkers and landowners; it also means more climbers who weren’t aware of the practice stumbling on stashed pads and becoming aware and doing it themselves, but maybe not doing it quite so carefully or doing it at less ‘acceptable’ crags. To an extent that’s a nonsense thick-end-of-the-wedge argument, but at the same time we’re having this discussion because someone came across what looked like stashed pads at Burbage North…
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Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks?
It's Matt Birch you are thinking of.
Matt Clifford - a cross between Matt Birch and Tim Clifford (ie Shy Yorkshireman 1 and 2) = UKs best boulderer.
Well hey I was on the right lines....
What about Tim Birch though? Or is he a complete punt?....
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There was a discussion on here / UKC a while ago after someone stashed an Organic Blubber at the Bowderstone; now that was pathetic.
The previous thread: Stashing Pads (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,28855.0.html).
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But THIS current topic is Pad Stashing, not Stashing Pads :smartass: A much more advanced stage in the discussion.
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The harder you’re climbing the less of an excuse you’ve got.
Why is that?? It's possible, although rare, to have quite a discrepancy between the ability to approach a crag, and the ability to climb up it - especially with bouldering. Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks? I suspect that's the sort of scenario where lugging pads in for a while could be debilitating, compared to 1 minute of anaerobic cranking with long rests in between.
I guess because if you’re climbing big grades you’re meant to be hard, not bringing the things you climb down to your level using tactics that less elite climbers wouldn’t consider. Would you be cool with people stashing pads if they were going to use them for the start of a trad route that they intended to report online using an E grade? ;)
Really it’s a big grey area and I agree 100% with this I'm struggling to roll with the argument that stashing pads is never OK.
but Droyd said we have to pick a side for some reason so I was outlining which side I’d pick.
I still think the idea of stashing pads at Burbage is funny but if it turns out they were stashed by someone who has a condition that prevents them carrying pads and climbing on the same day then I’ll apologise and feel like a dick.
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It seems to me that most of the issues arise when pads are stashed for an extended period of time (they get chewed by wildlife, found by walkers, stolen etc.) Perhaps the focus should be on encouraging people to minimise the length of time pads are stashed for? Having said that I guess we just end up in the same place when you try and work out how long is acceptable.
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On a far more crucial note, what happens when something that was put up by an old-school crusher (who walked their pads in and climbed on the same day) is repeated by a new-school pad-stasher (who got to saunter along the walk-in unencumbered and arrive better-rested)? Do we need to have separate grades to reflect this? What's the conversion between pad-laden and pad-less approaches to ascents? Is it a purer style of ascent and better for the environment if I get my pads helicoptered in rather than stashing them?
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Hard bouldering is not the same as hard pad-lugging though (it may have much more coincidence with hard pad-throwing of course :smirk:), and someone could be considerably more capable of one than the other - whatever their level.
I still think the idea of stashing pads at Burbage is funny but if it turns out they were stashed by someone who has a condition that prevents them carrying pads and climbing on the same day then I’ll apologise and feel like a dick.
This is interesting and a bit more nuanced in terms of whether the pad lugging will impact on someone's climbing (especially since the energy systems are likely to be different).
This is obviously an area of personal interest to me because I DO have a condition that makes carrying pads or indeed any loads uphill very difficult, but hasn't directly impinged my ability to climb much (secondary effects aside). Take, for example, stashing pads at Pots And Pans (not far but a pretty stiff slog). Carrying (3 small) pads up IS hard work for me, I get tired overall, I need more time to recover when I get there, it might well give me a bit of fatigue overall that affects my session, and it also can reduce my motivation and positivity towards climbing due to the constant (and unpleasant) reminder of my issues. Would I be justified in doing so??
Edit: Also now Droyd (post above) is tackling the real issues :o
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Trad racks and double ropes are heavy too. Perhaps you should just top rope :)
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Where's does this leave us with situations like one we witnessed a few years ago in Fairhead, where two absolute rockets had left a pad in-situ on Rathlin Effect. They also had a bottle of liquid chalk hung off a piece for mid-route reapplication.
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Hopefully it leads to a sensible constructive conversation which leaves anyone reading it with points to consider regarding their context.
This is one of the best things about a forum like this. Experienced climbers can leave their opinion without mud slinging and anyone wanting to get an idea of what’s acceptable could stumble across it and benefit from that.
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While I'm sympathetic to Droyd's point about different people's ability to get to the crag, one of the main things for me is how likely it is that someone is going to stumble on the pads and remove/steal/damage them.
Apparently last weekend someone's pad got nicked from Ruthven near Inverness. It had been left for a few hours while the owner was away at a different nearby crag, but Ruthven is a popular boulder right next to a path that walkers occasionally use, on a nature reserve. A few hours was long enough for either a well meaning walker to tidy it away or a cheeky bastard to nick it.
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A few hours was long enough for either a well meaning walker to tidy it away or a cheeky bastard to nick it.
Can anyone beat this time for swagging (or is that getting swagged) at a crag?
Once, I had a guidebook get mistakenly by another group in the time I spent on egg arete at cratcliffe
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in the time I spent on egg arete at cratcliffe
So 8 or 9 hours then based on my experience? :-\ ;)
Apparently last weekend someone's pad got nicked from Ruthven near Inverness. It had been left for a few hours while the owner was away at a different nearby crag, but Ruthven is a popular boulder right next to a path that walkers occasionally use, on a nature reserve. A few hours was long enough for either a well meaning walker to tidy it away or a cheeky bastard to nick it.
I saw this doing the rounds on Insta and thought the implication was that someone had taken it whilst the owner was present at the crag. If they just left it underneath the boulder then that's not stashed and it should be no surprise it was removed, although I'd have hoped the person who did would then try to return it.
Totally agree about their being out of sight when stashed. I mentioned discrete earlier and this is basically what I meant by that.
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A few hours was long enough for either a well meaning walker to tidy it away or a cheeky bastard to nick it.
Can anyone beat this time for swagging (or is that getting swagged) at a crag?
Once, I had a guidebook get mistakenly by another group in the time I spent on egg arete at cratcliffe
I had an ab rope lifted from near the start of Exposure Explosion near Ogmore, in the time from starting to finishing the route (tbf it's quite a long route). It was a Marlow rope, as flexible as a cable, probably good it went.
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I mentioned discrete earlier and this is basically what I meant by that.
Discreet then? ;)
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I mentioned discrete earlier and this is basically what I meant by that.
Discreet then? ;)
Ha well spotted.
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Where's does this leave us with situations like one we witnessed a few years ago in Fairhead, where two absolute rockets had left a pad in-situ on Rathlin Effect. They also had a bottle of liquid chalk hung off a piece for mid-route reapplication.
I'd say you've got to take the liquid chalk up with you. Pre-placed liquid chalk = no tick.
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Stashing pads seems like a vaguely risky affair in terms of never seeing those pads again.
I will say that if a pad is stashed where no-one sees it or knows where it is, then I can't imagine I'd be that bothered. Could be one of the many and various thin ends of the wedge mind you.
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If no one see that a pad is stashed in the forest, does it really exist?
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No video proof of pad-stashing, no green tick. Tippex out, back around, etc etc.
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I think this is sort of a closed subject in the states where the beasties are a little more active in pad destruction. A quick Google shows lots of 10/15 year old articles where pads have been strewn across the mountain like hobo confetti.
I've stashed a knackered pad before, and the paranoia that it'll get nicked/ destroyed has meant it's never been for long.
The serial stashers I know basically have too many pads to care
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The great John Sherman story is on pg 60 here;
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Tp7eUBRn4M4C&pg=PA58&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.
Stashing is not OK, in any form
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The great John Sherman story is on pg 60 here;
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Tp7eUBRn4M4C&pg=PA58&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
I was just thinking of this!
I can see a sort of Predator meets whisky western set in glen pean with the Verm attempting to extract one final legendary haul of stashed pads whilst being stalked by the Great Carnivore, bare chested and hungry. "The Stash - pads won't save you now."
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Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.
Stashing is not OK, in any form
This is a little bit black and white don't you think?
All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.
My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.
I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.
Thanks
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I tend to think that leaving them somewhere that only climbers will go and they wont get ripped up by bears or whatever is pretty inoffensive, though I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Probably best removed at the end of any relevant "season". Saying stashing is never ok would need a bit more behind it to make me think it's sensible - if it's that non-climbers might find them I can think of a bunch of places where that is very unlikely...
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I think this is sort of a closed subject in the states where the beasties are a little more active in pad destruction. A quick Google shows lots of 10/15 year old articles where pads have been strewn across the mountain like hobo confetti.
Curious what makes a stashed pad seem like a nutritious snack. Does it make a difference if the pad is imbued with the sweet taste of success, or the bitter taste of failure? Maybe it's an ethical thing.
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if it's that non-climbers might find them I can think of a bunch of places where that is very unlikely...
I though my stash was infallible, in a cave in the side of an arch, with the approach involving mincing through a load of gorse then a downclimb needing a rope, but my pad was clearly discovered (assume by local kids) who I think tried to use it as grass sledge which ripped it open and tore off one of the loops. I guess I can be grateful they didn't finish off by throwing it in the sea.
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No, the sea did that for them
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Those were different ones! You know where these pads were, definitely safe from even the roughest seas.
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(https://i0.wp.com/hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_6028.jpg)
having come across sh#t like this too often, and even the rather pungent maggot infested remnants of one pad (the smell was rank), i fall very firmly in the anti-stashing camp... (and will actively remove from spots in HK unless someone has left a name and number on the pad as a mark of ownership - so i know who to chase down and then name and shame at the end of the season)
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Outer material aside, they are all filled with basically plastic - and lots of it. I don't think anyone's making natural sea-sponge bouldering mats yet?
So very un-biodegradable/digestable.
From a punters' perspective, I've never come across stashed pads, and never had cause to stash them - but much like tick-marks, to non-climbers coming across them, they're unsightly at best, littering at worst.
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(https://i0.wp.com/hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_6028.jpg)
having come across sh#t like this too often, and even the rather pungent maggot infested remnants of one pad (the smell was rank), i fall very firmly in the anti-stashing camp... (and will actively remove from spots in HK unless someone has left a name and number on the pad as a mark of ownership - so i know who to chase down and then name and shame at the end of the season)
The example shown is clearly Not stashed but dumped, so in this case i would tend to agree with your actions.
That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.
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That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.
Can we keep them if we find them?
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That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.
Can we keep them if we find them?
Lol, Yes and good luck finding the area, getting permission from the various estates to use the private roads and parking, finding the wee caves, removing the pads from the caves as one item{they are padlocked together}, getting them past the Head game keepers/Estate staff, getting them out of Strathnairn {i have a flock of highly trained Slavonian Grebes who attack on command} , getting them out and on to the A9 { the locals will hunt you down and sacrifice you in a Wicker Man, Edwa WooWooWa kind of fashion}. Getting out of the Highlands {eventually the lack of sunlight will cause your body to shut down, slowly drawing into a layby just after the Slocht summit you will succumb to a dire black depression and probably end it all in a horror show asphyxy wank, to be found days later by the local police bound and gagged in the driver seat of your Ford Capri}.
Or....you could just leave em where they are :2thumbsup:
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You forgot about the wild yetis that roam the area, they've just come out of hibernation after today's snow
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You forgot about the wild yetis that roam the area, they've just come out of hibernation after today's snow
Is that an early 80s musical starring Barbra Streisand?, if so its way more terrifying than a horde of semi frozen mythical beasts :-\
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you left out being brutally savaged by a pack of feral haggis. More dangerous than dropbears when they detect the scent of thievery afoot.
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(https://i0.wp.com/hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_6028.jpg)
having come across sh#t like this too often, and even the rather pungent maggot infested remnants of one pad (the smell was rank), i fall very firmly in the anti-stashing camp... (and will actively remove from spots in HK unless someone has left a name and number on the pad as a mark of ownership - so i know who to chase down and then name and shame at the end of the season)
The example shown is clearly Not stashed but dumped, so in this case i would tend to agree with your actions.
That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.
Scraggers, I kind of think it's a wee bit of a stretch to apply this argument / issue in the vast unpopulated highlands. I mean, it took boulderers 25 years to even find the spots in the first place. It ain't Burbage!
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Is there a distinction to be made, then, between stashing pads when climbing purely for yourself (going out and repeating established problems, as most of us do) and when developing a boulder or area? It’s not something I thought about when writing my posts and I’m pretty ignorant in terms of how much hard graft goes into the parts of the process that don’t involve climbing shoes and chalk. If so I guess that comes down to how you see developing: are people who develop problems and areas doing so out of a pure love for the community and desire to give others fantastic experiences, due to egotism and a love of seeing their names written down, or because of a simple lack of interest in climbing established problems and preference for the unknown? Regardless of intent the rest of us get to enjoy more climbs (assuming the developer documents what they’ve done), but for reasons I struggle to articulate it feels like more slack should be cut for altruistic developers than the monomaniacal Gary Gibsons of the bouldering world in terms of stashing.
However, that only deals with the laziness/personal achievement aspect, rather than the ecological and ‘moral’ (in the heaviest of inverted commas) ones, in that it’s only a defence of the practice if your primary issue is with stashed pads being found. A pad at a crag that other climbers don’t know about and that is miles off the beaten track and hard to access is unlikely to be found by other climbers and walkers, but it’ll still be found by the local fauna, and still be pollution if events conspire to stop the owner returning. The ‘if a tree falls in the forest’ meme kind of misses the point, in that the issue isn’t the ‘event’, i.e. the tree falling down (the pad being stashed), but the consequences of the event. The idea that the perfect instance of stashing a pad (whereby you stash it, use it, retrieve it, no one found it, and it’s as if it never happened) isn’t the problem – it’s when things don’t go to plan.
I guess the heavy-handed analogy here is regular instances of littering (with the massive caveat that anyone who chooses to drop a Snickers wrapper while walking in the Lakes is a massive wanker, but that’s not what I’m saying about anyone stashing a pad. I’m just trying to pick a hole in the logic of it). I think that most people who litter genuinely do not think about the consequences of their actions: their thought process either stops at ‘I don’t want to hang onto this piece of garbage’ and doesn’t continue to a consideration of the place, or they do get that far but make their decision to litter on the assumption that someone else will eventually pick it up. In both instances they’re not thinking ‘fuck it, I do not respect this place’, because they’re not acting with the intention to leave a non-biodegradable piece of garbage in a beautiful environment permanently; that’s just an unintended outcome of the chain of events of them leaving it and other people not clearing it up. I think that that’s analogous to the ‘I’ll definitely come back’ approach in that it’s all well and good if you clear up after yourself, but if that doesn’t transpire then your previous act of stashing has become an act of littering (as happens if life gets in the way). So the argument that stashing pads is not littering is wholly contingent on intention with regard to your future self, but until your future self gets his or her arse in gear and actually goes go back it functionally is litter, because it’s a non-biodegradable object that’s been consciously left in a natural environment. I guess the dog-shit analogy up-thread is similar but even more heavy-handed, emotive, and judgemental. In essence, we’re talking about Schrödinger's boulder pad – in quantum superposition, a state of garbage and not-garbage, until connies are sufficiently good that a wave-function collapse occurs in the form of the owner returning, sending the gnar, and taking their shit home with them.
I do stress that I’m absolutely not having a go at anyone, either specifically or in general – I’m a total punter thinking about things in simple, black and white terms, in relation to my own experience of just bumbling about and enjoying all of the problems that other people have put time and effort into developing. I guess it’s similar to how we should all be thinking about lifestyle changes for reasons of climate change, in terms of recognising that what would be ideal is not necessarily achievable and not condemning others for failing to share your values.
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(https://i0.wp.com/hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_6028.jpg)
having come across sh#t like this too often, and even the rather pungent maggot infested remnants of one pad (the smell was rank), i fall very firmly in the anti-stashing camp... (and will actively remove from spots in HK unless someone has left a name and number on the pad as a mark of ownership - so i know who to chase down and then name and shame at the end of the season)
The example shown is clearly Not stashed but dumped, so in this case i would tend to agree with your actions.
That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.
Scraggers, I kind of think it's a wee bit of a stretch to apply this argument / issue in the vast unpopulated highlands. I mean, it took boulderers 25 years to even find the spots in the first place. It ain't Burbage!
Yup, kind of my point. Like many arguments it works on a sliding scale of nuance and specifics.
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Droyd not wanting to have an argument but why should we not condemn people for doing things that we think are wrong? Like say not littering at the crag, not leaving boulders plastered in chalk, retro peg bolting, not shitting at the crag, etc. People can respond and say why they think they should be able to do these things.
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Droyd not wanting to have an argument but why should we not condemn people for doing things that we think are wrong? Like say not littering at the crag, not leaving boulders plastered in chalk, retro peg bolting, not shitting at the crag, etc. People can respond and say why they think they should be able to do these things.
I think you absolutely should condemn things if that's how you feel (although I disagree with the equating of pad stashing and taking a shit at the crag), as that's how consensus is formed. I don't agree with doing it for the reasons outlined, but am making my case while arguing that you can disagree with something without condemning either the action or the person. In addition, I'm arguing that I don't see it as acceptable within the context of my bouldering (mostly in the Peak, not developing things) but am noting that other people have wildly different approaches and experiences.
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Droyd, you're too nice. Let's see more condemning. Hang 'em high. Liven the place up a bit.
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... are people who develop problems and areas doing so out of a pure love for the community and desire to give others fantastic experiences, due to egotism and a love of seeing their names written down, or because of a simple lack of interest in climbing established problems and preference for the unknown?
Personally? All of those reasons, plus a few more.
I don't think FAist's should be given any special dispensation. But they are more likely than most to find themself in the position that pad stashing is of higher value and lower risk. They are often solo (for various sensible reasons), so they have less pads, but need more as they don't have a spotter. They're often carrying extra/heavy kit. A given problem is likely to require more sessions then a repeat. They are often at a very obscure location (not the Terrace!).
I can think of four times I've stashed pads. In two of these it was for access reasons as a stealth approach was required and repeatedly ferrying in pads quite likely to draw unwanted attention.
I'm not advocating the practice, just explaining my justification at the time.
As with many things which live in the grey area, it's kind of arguably okay(ish) until it becomes vaguely mainstream, at which point it rapidly becomes unsustainable.
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There are currently at least two pads under Dogs Dinner Buttress in Cheedale, that are clearly visible from the Monsal Trail on the bridge above.
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That's definitely idiotic, and will require a site visit next week. I don't have storage, so they'll have to be given away or disposed of. I'd suggest if they belong to anyone who reads this, they go and get them (and any knackered ones at Badger Cove) over the weekend.
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My tuppence as someone that spends a fair bit of my climbing time developing Highland choss: I sometimes stash pads at places that will require multiple visits and when I think it's very unlikely that anyone else will find them, and never for longer than a few weeks at a time. But I'm well aware that Highland development is at one end of a spectrum, with repeating long established problems relatively close to paths and roads at the other.
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I tried to explain pad stashing to my wife and her response was ‘if you have to stash a pad, you should be questioning your hobby choice!’ So there you go!
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Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.
Stashing is not OK, in any form
This is a little bit black and white don't you think?
All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.
My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.
I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.
Thanks
Yes... Subjects like this need to be B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.
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Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.
Stashing is not OK, in any form
This is a little bit black and white don't you think?
All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.
My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.
I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.
Thanks
Yes... Subjects like this need to be B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.
Do you think i see myself as a special exemption?
Also an exception from what?
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[
Yes... Subjects like this need to be B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.
And maybe they do?!
In essence, we’re talking about Schrödinger's boulder pad – in quantum superposition, a state of garbage and not-garbage, until connies are sufficiently good that a wave-function collapse occurs in the form of the owner returning, sending the gnar, and taking their shit home with them.
...and this is why UKB and the debates on it are occasionally great :yes:
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Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.
Stashing is not OK, in any form
This is a little bit black and white don't you think?
All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.
My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.
I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.
Thanks
Yes... Subjects like this need to be B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.
Do you think i see myself as a special exemption?
Also an exception from what?
The Country Code, of course!
Leave the countryside as you found it... Leave No Trace!
Take your litter home... All litter is unsightly and can be dangerous to livestock and wildlife.
Respect other recreational users... Irresponsible behaviour could lead to you and your activity being banned from the area in the future.
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You sound like the sort of person who'll now try to tell people that leaving draws in is never acceptable.
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Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.
Stashing is not OK, in any form
This is a little bit black and white don't you think?
All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.
My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.
I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.
Thanks
Yes... Subjects like this need to be B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.
Do you think i see myself as a special exemption?
Also an exception from what?
The Country Code, of course!
Leave the countryside as you found it... Leave No Trace!
Take your litter home... All litter is unsightly and can be dangerous to livestock and wildlife.
Respect other recreational users... Irresponsible behaviour could lead to you and your activity being banned from the area in the future.
Ok, fair enough.
So does that still apply if i have specific permission to clean/climb/stash gear and pads{in an out of site location} by the land owners?
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Only if you have signed consent from the local wildlife too. Right down to woodlice (midges have waivered rights).
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You say fair enough, then you question it in relation to your own special exemption that you sound like you feel entitled to?
If you have found some hidden cave somewhere on your friends land, and you want to stash pads there... probably best not to tell other people about it because they may feel inclined to think 'if its OK for him its OK for me'
In my own experience, Its always battered old pads with split sides and exposed foam that I've seen 'dumped' at crags like Badger Cove and the Churnet, with no regard for it's impact on the wildlife.
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You say fair enough, then you question it in relation to your own special exemption that you sound like you feel entitled to?
If you have found some hidden cave somewhere on your friends land, and you want to stash pads there... probably best not to tell other people about it because they may feel inclined to think 'if its OK for him its OK for me'
In my own experience, Its always battered old pads with split sides and exposed foam that I've seen 'dumped' at crags like Badger Cove and the Churnet, with no regard for it's impact on the wildlife.
I think we may have to agree to disagree on this, its way too long a topic for me to try and explain online{ im not good at it }
and would rather discuss it over a beer face to face :)
One question though, have you ever bouldered in the Highlands of Scotland?
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[quote author=scragrock link=topic=333
Yup,that does sound fair enough indeed but if that is case I would certainly be wary of publicising the boulders in any guidebook as once the great unwashed are aware of the place.......well we've seen what happens.Or should we keep these places as our own private playground :devangel:?
Back around.
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Me, I didn’t even know that expedition bouldering was a thing. Are people stashing water, food, stoves and gas too? Because I find that pretty handy for my expedition sport climbing in Céüse.
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I posted this the last time pad stashing was discussed.
Badger cove doesn't fall into the catagory of unlikely to be discovered pad stash location (https://deanread.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/peak-district-thirst-house-cave-bivvy-wild-camp/)
Although, I'm not against pad stashing at Badger and other places in the peak. Ive never seen any wildlife getting involved in the pads and generally they are removed if too worn out. Probably the peak being a busy area is good for this.
I think a mobile number on the pad is a good idea. If you really think it's ok to leave the pad there/it'll never be discovered then why not?
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Quite honestly if someone discreetly stashed a couple of properly hidden and not mouldering pads at some desolate windswept vukojebina of a locale because they were doing some development and the walk in is massive, then that's fine imo and I don't really see that it's worth getting worked up about it. If you have permission with the landowner, same, even more so, and if they're only there for a few days or whatever, etc etc etc
If its an area where the public will see it, or if they're stashed all the time i.e in situ, or if they're horrible stinking piles of insects and fungus, that's not really on, because it makes the outdoors shitty for other people. But if it isn't and one is reasonable, discreet and considerate, then I personally do not care at all, although not as little as I care about pegbolts, admittedly.
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I'm going to bite the bullet and get involved in this debate! Personally, I have never stashed a pad at a crag. However, I have gratefully made use of pad stashes on several occasions. There are some definite situations where they seem logical and sensible. For example, an out of the way cave off a deserted beach with a fair trek to the road, where the climbing involves long, meandering problems which would require 6 or 7+ pads to make safe (you would not want to snap an ankle out there....), the mats are wrapped in tarpaulins and tucked right at the back. I can think of lots of instances where stashed pads are so carefully hidden that even those who know where to look struggle to locate them, certainly not left as an eyesore for passing tourists. More importantly, in these scenarios, they can mean the difference between boulders being developed or not.
It was really interesting to read comments about their environmental impact on flora and fauna. I had not thought about it from that perspective before, and I can certainly see why older, knackered pads being chewed by rodents could cause issues. Also, stashing pads where the access is easy, they will be in people's way and cause an eyesore is clearly nonsense. But if you have a black and white rule blanket banning stashing, that would hinder future ascents of a significant number of boulder problems.
I also disagree with the 'dropping litter' analogy - litter serves no positive purpose, it only has negative impacts. Pad stashing, if undertaken judiciously within certain parameters, can be beneficial and have minimal impact.
I'm not saying we should tell all climbers that it's fine to go ahead and do it, because of course some people's interpretation of what is acceptable will be way off the radar. But it would be really rubbish if all pad stashes we're banned and the 'culprits' were vilified on an online forum....
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I can't help thinking that we've been here before recently. This seems to be how it goes:
1. Bouldering can be dangerous and it's hard to carry sufficient protection to make some problems safe - especially new problems with long approaches. Therefore stashing pads is ok in some circumstances.
2. Stashed pads deteriorate over time, resulting in dubious cushioning properties and eventually rotting to complete uselessness, leaving an unsightly residue, and frequently needing replaced. Environmental disaster!
3. So instead of repeating this damaging cycle ad infinitum, let's be sensible grown-ups and fit semi-permanent 'eco-pads' underneath these specific, potentially dangerous problems.
It is the nature of moral pragmatism that it always seems fine, until it doesn't. I may be posting this on the wrong thread, but it seems to me that the better place to stop the damaging cycle is at step 1 rather than step 3.
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Very good lol.
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I can't help thinking that we've been here before recently. This seems to be how it goes:
1. Bouldering can be dangerous and it's hard to carry sufficient protection to make some problems safe - especially new problems with long approaches. Therefore stashing pads is ok in some circumstances.
2. Stashed pads deteriorate over time, resulting in dubious cushioning properties and eventually rotting to complete uselessness, leaving an unsightly residue, and frequently needing replaced. Environmental disaster!
3. So instead of repeating this damaging cycle ad infinitum, let's be sensible grown-ups and fit semi-permanent 'eco-pads' underneath these specific, potentially dangerous problems.
It is the nature of moral pragmatism that it always seems fine, until it doesn't. I may be posting this on the wrong thread, but it seems to me that the better place to stop the damaging cycle is at step 1 rather than step 3.
The problem is, you can take everything to extreme logical conclusions and they all end up in the same place. One must shoot oneself to save the planet.
Everyone we do causes some level of harm, it's drawings the lines and revisiting them periodically that keeps things in check. I think the bolt-peg-P-bolt argument is a false equivalence here. Amusing as it was...
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It's more analogues to the permadraw question (if they could be effectively disguised/hidden between use).