UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Kingy on September 07, 2023, 06:01:23 pm
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I wondered if anybody knew why this linkup has been upgraded on UKC when its always been 8a. Chimes is 8a+ via Baby Chimes (8a). The start up the Green Alternative 7c is much easier
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I wondered if anybody knew why this linkup has been upgraded on UKC when its always been 8a. Chimes is 8a+ via Baby Chimes (8a). The start up the Green Alternative 7c is much easier
Isn’t green alternative 7c+? Where’s the downgrade come from :lol:
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In 2009, early repeaters, myself included, thought Green Alternative likely fair at 7c rather than 7c+, see 8a.nu logs. If it is 7c+ then Weedkiller the route to the right and Baby Chimes both look undergraded. Regardless, Chimes Alternative seems out of place at 8a+ compared to Chimes at the same grade! Why not give Chimes 8b if we're in the business of upgrading stuff?
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There are loads of random UKC upgrades as they make new guidebooks, or in reality new updates for the app. There are loads at Kilnsey too; eg Grooved Arete is now 8b. It's bollocks but I have asked Alan why and he just refers to grade votes which is obviously nonsense.
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Load of shite :shit:
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Can I have a list of the upgraded problems / routes please?
Asking for a friend.
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Grooved Arete is up to 8b
Ain't no sponsored here is up to 7c+
Pantomime is up to 7c
50 for 5 is up to 7c
I'm sure there are others
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I've not done that link but I've done others that include all of its bits and I'd agree it sounds more 8a than 8a+. I found Fowl-Play (8a) harder above its Green-Alternative start than I did the headwall of Chimes after Chimes short. Chimes headwall has the resting buckets on the ramp that mean it just adds quality rather than red-point difficulty IMO.
As an aside, Green Alternative feels 7c+ not 7c for those of us lacking omph and strong fingers.
It's very basic but that means there's no way to wriggle through via guile and practiced beta.
Perhaps Green Alternative would be graded 7c in terms of how readily flashed it is (by the likes of you!) but not in terms of struggles to red-point it.
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Impossible that Chimes Alternative is 8a+!
Haha, good memory! OK, I concede that Green Alternative is markedly harder for the short and perhaps soft 7c+ in that case. I wish more people would at least try Weedkiller the route, nobody tries it ever and its better than GA which was excavated and sika'd out of the rubble.
Is Baby Chimes really only 1 grade harder than GA though? :-\ ::)
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What happens now on UKC with my link up 'Green Fighter' 8a which adds the Right to Roam finish above Chimes Alternative. Will the mysterious upgraders get this up to 8a+ as well?
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Grooved Arete is up to 8b
Ain't no sponsored here is up to 7c+
Pantomime is up to 7c
50 for 5 is up to 7c
I'm sure there are others
Myra up to 7c+
Tbf some those are, imo, deserved, but there's a lack of rationale which annoys me. Some reflect Northern Rock, the most recent up to date guide, which seems fair enough. Grooved Arete annoys me the most, no reason for that upgrade at all.
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Weedkiller and GA are probably just at the opposite ends of the same grade and I know a few that find Weedkiller easier. Short Chimes is probably at the upper end of the next grade up.
I agree that Chimes Alternative is not 8a+ but it won't have been intentionally upgraded either. I'm sure it is just a mistake in proof reading.
I can't change route information on there if it has a "R" (in app or print) but I will request a correction but that may not happen till the next update.
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Grooved Arete annoys me the most, no reason for that upgrade at all.
This is just your subjective opinion though. What makes you think you are right compared to the majority? I think GA is really frustratingly hard! Feels much harder than the 8a+'s I have climbed. But I guess I must be wrong......
To clarify, I have not grade voted this for 8b anywhere, but I would if someone asked me.
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Grooved Arete is up to 8b
Ain't no sponsored here is up to 7c+
Pantomime is up to 7c
50 for 5 is up to 7c
I'm sure there are others
Can’t comment on Grooved Arête as I’ve not tried it, but I’d agree with the others. I find 50 for 5 harder than Pantomime and both harder than Comedy, so depends if Comedy is 7c.
I found Sponsored Hero hard - it includes the crux of Tragedy, albeit with a slightly easier intro and then adds another hardish section above. I did it around the same time as Mr Nice and The Jekyll and found it harder than both.
Myra fine at 7c unless it’s lost significant holds since I did it.
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Ha I remember discussing this at crag Nao and you called me out then as well. :)
I guess it's more that I don't think the grades of routes should just be arbitrarily changed, unless there is a really clear consensus, or something has fallen off that clearly changes the grade. If its just a matter of subjective opinion (which I would accept this is) then I don't think the grade should be changed, either up or down. As to how we arrive at that consensus, I agree that is the million dollar question!
Also I'm not convinced "the majority" do think it's 8b, but I guess we will never have any data for that. Grade voting is totally pointless in my opinion, it's basically junk data. I think the other thing that makes me think GA doesn't need changing is that even if we accept it's been a borderline case for years, the knee bar just before the crux is really quite good with modern pads and makes doing the crux a fair bit easier after a rest.
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To provide some background to Grooved Arete for those who may not be aware. It was graded 8b around the time of Tony Mitchell's first ascent in 1992. However, the resting 'jug' by the last bolt was only big enough for one hand so you could only shake out one arm before the last move! It parted company with the crag, as is the wont of many holds at Kilnsey(!) A replacement jug was found below the crag and glued on with the difference that it was now possible to shake out with both hands. I believe this was one of the driving forces behind the downgrade to 8a+.
I don't log on UKC and don't vote on there either but do take an interest in up/down grades for the sake of the historical record.
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Fwiw I would agree Sponsored Hero is probably 7c+ and 50/5 just about 7c. I don't think Myra needed upgrading though, that was fine at 7c for me.
Comedy is a funny one. If the knee bar at the rest fits you it becomes a totally different proposition but I think it's a weird leg length one.
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To provide some background to Grooved Arete for those who may not be aware….
You’re missing the (possibly apocryphal) bit of the story where Pete Chadwick successfully redpointed it after some effort and Dunning, while still a teacher, set it as a class project to downvote it to 8a+ on the old Rockfax website.
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Haha, I can believe it!
FWIW, Ain't no sponsored hero is 7b+ in my 2004 Rockfax, just sayin.....
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There are loads of random UKC upgrades as they make new guidebooks, or in reality new updates for the app. There are loads at Kilnsey too; eg Grooved Arete is now 8b. It's bollocks but I have asked Alan why and he just refers to grade votes which is obviously nonsense.
Grade voting on UKC should be public - this would solve a lot of problems. That or only allowing people who have sent the problem/route to vote, either way I still think voting should be public
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Gotta love a good grade debate hey. Hard 8a+ is not really any different to soft 8b in reality. Whereas soft 8a is miles away from hard 8a for instance!
I'd like to say I don't care, but I clearly do... i reckon I'd be more motivated to get back on GA if I was going to be rewarded with an 8b tick!!
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Grooved Arete is up to 8b
Ain't no sponsored here is up to 7c+
Pantomime is up to 7c
50 for 5 is up to 7c
I'm sure there are others
I found Sponsored Hero hard - it includes the crux of Tragedy, albeit with a slightly easier intro and then adds another hardish section above. I did it around the same time as Mr Nice and The Jekyll and found it harder than both.
This is very interesting to read. I found Mr nice the living end at 7c+ and it took me many sessions. Whereas I ain't no... felt standard 7c to me.
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Ive never known a country that is so obsessed with a grade being absolutely spot on. They don't spend hours and hours debating it in say, Spain. Yes the culture around it all is a bit different with not so many discussions online as here, but you also don't hear people going on about it at the crag.
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I'm curious as to how the Chimes Alternative upgrade on ukc has come about since it doesn't reflect the ukc votes or general experience. Are you (kc) saying it is because ukc is linked to an (online) guidebook and a typo was made in that (online) guidebook? If its genesis really was just a typing goof then we should be thankful it wasn't a slip to 6a or 9a I guess.
This all prompted me to guess some Darth Grader inputs for those routes :)
How about:-
Green Alternative: 6B / no rest / 7A soft = 7c+
Chimes Alternative: 6B / no rest / 7A soft / bad rest / 6B / good rest/ 7b hard = 8a
Fowl Play: 6B / no rest / 7A soft / bad rest / 7b+ / good rest / 7b = 8a hard
Chimes: 6B / no rest / 7B / bad rest / 6B / good rest / 7b hard = 8a+
Chimes short: 6B / no rest / 7B = 8a+ soft
Waddage: 6B / no rest / 7B / bad rest / 6B / good rest / 7b+ / good rest / 7b+ = 8a+ hard
Obviously people will disagree with all the component bits in that too :)
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Haha, I can believe it!
FWIW, Ain't no sponsored hero is 7b+ in my 2004 Rockfax, just sayin.....
Yep, well aware. Along with Felix’s comment, it’s just further confirmation that grades are just a guide and don’t really matter that much. All you can ever say with certainty is I’ve climbed route X and not I’ve climbed grade Y. Or what Adam said.
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Ive never known a country that is so obsessed with a grade being absolutely spot on. They don't spend hours and hours debating it in say, Spain. Yes the culture around it all is a bit different with not so many discussions online as here, but you also don't hear people going on about it at the crag.
I think it's to do with quantity of rock and the fact that cause we have less routes full stop we have less to try, so it seems to matter more that the grade is "correct". Know what you mean though!
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Ive never known a country that is so obsessed with a grade being absolutely spot on. They don't spend hours and hours debating it in say, Spain. Yes the culture around it all is a bit different with not so many discussions online as here, but you also don't hear people going on about it at the crag.
There’s literal pages worth of grade discussions on bleau.info and mountain project :lol:
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Plus the Spanish would just solve the argument by using slash grades on everything
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I'm curious as to how the Chimes Alternative upgrade on ukc has come about since it doesn't reflect the ukc votes or general experience. Are you (kc) saying it is because ukc is linked to an (online) guidebook and a typo was made in that (online) guidebook? If its genesis really was just a typing goof then we should be thankful it wasn't a slip to 6a or 9a I guess.
This all prompted me to guess some Darth Grader inputs for those routes :)
How about:-
Green Alternative: 6B / no rest / 7A soft = 7c+
Chimes Alternative: 6B / no rest / 7A soft / bad rest / 6B / good rest/ 7b hard = 8a
Fowl Play: 6B / no rest / 7A soft / bad rest / 7b+ / good rest / 7b = 8a hard
Chimes: 6B / no rest / 7B / bad rest / 6B / good rest / 7b hard = 8a+
Chimes short: 6B / no rest / 7B = 8a+ soft
Waddage: 6B / no rest / 7B / bad rest / 6B / good rest / 7b+ / good rest / 7b+ = 8a+ hard
Obviously people will disagree with all the component bits in that too :)
I just looked at my proof reading March2020 PDF just before print and it is 8a. It must have been changed on the final edit for some reason.
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Ive never known a country that is so obsessed with a grade being absolutely spot on. They don't spend hours and hours debating it in say, Spain. Yes the culture around it all is a bit different with not so many discussions online as here, but you also don't hear people going on about it at the crag.
I 100% agree that they do not spend much time debating grades in Spain, and I am sure that that this is much to their advantage. Time spending whining about grades like small little obedient Jens Larsen clones could be better spent on other things in my humble opinion. People loudly bragging about how easy they found a route for its grade often create a bad atmosphere at the crag.
The French, however, can also be absolutely insufferable when it comes to whining about grades. There are even people who've asked me if I thought this or that route really was 8a or whatever. Routes that were put up in the 80s, when 8a was a big deal, and have had thousands of repeats! I have started to tell these guys (almost always guys) that there are 50 routes (or whatever) harder on the crag and that they should think more about what sequences to use on those routes than to waste time thinking if the route their friend/enemy/themselves just did was 8a, 8a soft, or 7c+/8a. The scale goes up to 9c and anyone not climbing 9c should just choose a harder/easier route if they are dissatisfied with the challenge.
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To provide some background to Grooved Arete for those who may not be aware….
You’re missing the (possibly apocryphal) bit of the story where Pete Chadwick successfully redpointed it after some effort and Dunning, while still a teacher, set it as a class project to downvote it to 8a+ on the old Rockfax website.
Apocryphal maybe, but also incredibly plausible.
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To provide some background to Grooved Arete for those who may not be aware….
You’re missing the (possibly apocryphal) bit of the story where Pete Chadwick successfully redpointed it after some effort and Dunning, while still a teacher, set it as a class project to downvote it to 8a+ on the old Rockfax website.
Apocryphal maybe, but also incredibly plausible.
Is there also a hold breakage issue with GA to explain its grade being somewhat disputed / variable? I've heard that the glued jug before the upper RP crux was a much poorer rest pre-breakage. Personally, I found it really hard for 8a+ but as it was pretty much my anti-style (power-endurance and a morpho' issue for a particular move), the tough end of that grade felt fair to me.
Pantomime is a weird one - I remember that its successful RP felt far more desperate than that of Comedy, but Comedy took several sessions, whereas I did Pantomime in a day, on my third consecutive day of climbing (RP'd Comedy on Saturday, did Truth Drug on Sunday, and Pantomime on Monday... happy days!). I suspect Pantomime seems harder than it really is because the moves are comparatively unpleasant / awkward and the holds are nastier. My vote would be the old consensus that Pantomime is a solid 7b+ and Comedy is a low end 7c (and very soft for wall-bred monsters).
I don't really recall Ain't No Sponsored Hero, my log book entry is "Good climbing; not the nasty glued, choss-fest I had assumed. Pumpy power-endurance on interesting holds to a good rest; steady away, then a technical boulder problem on tiny holds at the finish. Felt 7c/+. 3 goes on Sat, got it first go Sunday." So,I would not take issue with either 7c or 7c+.
50 for 5 is a bit ungradable for me - as it always felt steady up to the top weird boulder problem. It always felt like the least repeatable <8a route for me. I had a fair few goes at repeating it when climbing really well, and still failed to get stood up in the top break more often than not. I found The Ashes and Cold Steal (providing conditions were good) more repeatable.
Personally I think the most egregious upgrade is that Wysiwyg sometimes being given 7b+ - personally I find it low end 7b. I gather that it was once genuinely 7b+ because the big rest jug before the finish was unusable, but surely not now?!
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WYSIWYG being considered 7b+ by some has a lot to answer for, because how could you possibly then have 50 for 5 as the same grade?
When I did Comedy I made an absolute shambles of it but the kneebar at mid height improves the rest to the point that you can now get away with such sloppiness. At the time the kneepad was still slightly controversial and now you don't see anybody trying it without one. Comedy should probably come down to 7b+ now. Imagine that being the same grade as WYSIWYG!
Just pointing to the grade votes is sooooo stupid. The bias is rife. But if you're going to buy fast food guidebooks then expect to be fed shit.
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Never mind the upgrades have the existing soft touches held the line? I’d hate for some of my best ever climbing expériences to now be rendered an utterly pointless waste of time by a down grade!
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Appreciate the list of new softies, keep them coming. Just building out the ticklist for next year :thumbsup:
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To provide some background to Grooved Arete for those who may not be aware….
You’re missing the (possibly apocryphal) bit of the story where Pete Chadwick successfully redpointed it after some effort and Dunning, while still a teacher, set it as a class project to downvote it to 8a+ on the old Rockfax website.
Apocryphal maybe, but also incredibly plausible.
Having been told the story by Pete and confirmed by Steve I'm still not sure it's true :shrug:
FWIW I put more time into GA than any other route at Kilnsey. It felt a step up from every other 8a+ I did/tried.
Comedy (sans cheat pad) is soft 7c and Pantomime the same grade.
WYSIWYG is bottom 7b+, it's probably the softest one in Yorkshire, but you've got to put a line somewhere and it's harder than the 7b's around.
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Personally no idea how Wysi ever got 7b+, it's not even close to that imo! Not sure what we've learned from this thread other than there's clearly no consensus here...
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WYSIWYG is bottom 7b+, it's probably the softest one in Yorkshire, but you've got to put a line somewhere and it's harder than the 7b's around.
I found Sticky Wicket far harder than Wysi - I used to use Wysi as a warm-up route, whereas if I'd tried the same with Sticky I'd have been ruined for the entire weekend! [stop the press - tall person who likes crimps, found a crimpy and reachy route comparatively easy!]
Cruisin' for a Bruisin' is another one where I don't personally get the upgrade from 7b to 7b+ - I managed it second go when 7b was pretty much as hard as I'd ever RP'd. It seemed more painful than hard.
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I found Sticky Wicket far harder than Wysi - I used to use Wysi as a warm-up route, whereas if I'd tried the same with Sticky I'd have been ruined for the entire weekend! [stop the press - tall person who likes crimps, found a crimpy and reachy route comparatively easy!]
Cruisin' for a Bruisin' is another one where I don't personally get the upgrade from 7b to 7b+ - I managed it second go when 7b was pretty much as hard as I'd ever RP'd. It seemed more painful than hard.
Agree re Sticky!
Cruisin is 7b in the latest Northern Rock.
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If it helps, sticky wicket took longer me longer than 50 for 5...
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I don’t care about the grades of any other routes but can everyone just agree/pretend Wysi is 7b+ please? Pretty please with a cherry on top? It’s the only one my OH has done and she’ll be so upset if it goes down to 7b!
:please:
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Get her to Trow Gill. Lovely spot and the 7b+s there are all very manageable.
WYSIWYG is the Whisky Galore of limestone.
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I'd like to say I don't care, but I clearly do... i reckon I'd be more motivated to get back on GA if I was going to be rewarded with an 8b tick!!
I find this truly baffling; if those moves up and exiting the groove aren't motivation enough then it's time to take up road biking!
I think it's bang on at the grade and I'm short enough that I can't rely on the knee beyond the two crimps. There's plenty of range at Kilnsey at 8a+. Have a look at Vanilla Path and They Brush Me!
Both Nat and my hardest RPs are now retrospective upgrades without hold loss which seems a bit ridiculous.
Let's not forget that (fatty) Gee pulled the big block off Sticky Wicket and then the end crumbled a few times; it has got harder unlike others mentioned that in recent years have remained unchanged yet have been upgraded.
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Let's not forget that (fatty) Gee pulled the big block off Sticky Wicket and then the end crumbled a few times; it has got harder unlike others mentioned that in recent years have remained unchanged yet have been upgraded.
There's a decent knee where the block fell off though, must make up for any hold loss.
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I think you're perhaps talking about the bit after moving left? The blocky hold was like a house brick protruding in that break at the top of the grooved section.
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I'd like to say I don't care, but I clearly do... i reckon I'd be more motivated to get back on GA if I was going to be rewarded with an 8b tick!!
I find this truly baffling; if those moves up and exiting the groove aren't motivation enough then it's time to take up road biking!
I think it's bang on at the grade and I'm short enough that I can't rely on the knee beyond the two crimps. There's plenty of range at Kilnsey at 8a+. Have a look at Vanilla Path and They Brush Me!
I hear you Paul - I'm well aware that it's a great route, regardless of the grade. But I did climb that excellent groove a lot, only to continually fall off the same move to the crimp high up repeatedly. I found it a total heartbreaker, all the more so because other people were declaring how easy they found it! It made me feel marginally better to hear a few peeps on here also found GA a tough proposition. So we will all continue to have our different opinions, none of which are exclusively 'correct'. And I can believe it is either a really, really hard 8a+, or a soft 8b and you couldn't floss between the two.
And, yes, one day I will get back on it...
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I think you're perhaps talking about the bit after moving left? The blocky hold was like a house brick protruding in that break at the top of the grooved section.
Right you are.
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FWIW GA took me five days and whilst it was my first 8a+ (or 8b) I’d never spent more than a couple of days on things at the time. The same week I did Staminaband at the Tor and afterwards I on-sighted Biological. I was definitely climbing well. I seem to remember I thought I’d do it on my 3rd day then fell off at the top loads. Anyways, it was my style (PE) and I’ve since done some easier 8a+s (though not many cos I’m not a big redpointer) so I get why it’s contentious. For me I also found both Caviar and Pump up the Power harder than GA.
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Insert morphological comment about the listed routes here. :worms:
It's almost as if grades aren't an exact science.
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Which things have been downgraded which you think ought not to have been, Paul? And is this a UKC/NR/both downgrade?
I don't get the comments saying it isn't an exact science. You open our book, look at the number, that's the grade. That's it.
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...only to continually fall off the same move to the crimp high up repeatedly. I found it a total heartbreaker.
I'm sure you've had all sorts of beta but have you tried the Dunning push down on the jug?
Which things have been downgraded which you think ought not to have been, Paul? And is this a UKC/NR/both downgrade?
Throw some out for consideration? I'm struggling to think of many downgrades as a whole (beyond the settling of new routes).
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Sorry, I meant upgrades.
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Sorry, I meant upgrades.
I'm not sure (in the context of this thread) that there are any? But, IMO if GA were 8b then that would throw a few other things off (including relative to other crags like WCJ and Cheedale Cornice which have a good smattering of similar 8a+s) and the lesser travelled routes in the same grade would be ALL over the place. Anyway, grades etc. :worms:
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Both Nat and my hardest RPs are now retrospective upgrades without hold loss which seems a bit ridiculous.
I somehow read this and thought you were talking about a more chronic issue than 2 routes. My mistake.
Anyway, what were the two routes?
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...only to continually fall off the same move to the crimp high up repeatedly. I found it a total heartbreaker.
I'm sure you've had all sorts of beta but have you tried the Dunning push down on the jug?
I can't exactly remember as it was a few years ago now. Will definitely be hunting for all the tricks when I get back on it! It sounds like there's a kneebar now that I wasn't using too. Maybe it'll feel easy now!!
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Knees have a lot to answer for (and no, before anyone starts, that's not a serious comment).
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I'd like to say I don't care, but I clearly do... i reckon I'd be more motivated to get back on GA if I was going to be rewarded with an 8b tick!!
I find this truly baffling; if those moves up and exiting the groove aren't motivation enough then it's time to take up road biking!
I think it's bang on at the grade and I'm short enough that I can't rely on the knee beyond the two crimps. There's plenty of range at Kilnsey at 8a+. Have a look at Vanilla Path and They Brush Me!
I hear you Paul - I'm well aware that it's a great route, regardless of the grade. But I did climb that excellent groove a lot, only to continually fall off the same move to the crimp high up repeatedly. I found it a total heartbreaker, all the more so because other people were declaring how easy they found it! It made me feel marginally better to hear a few peeps on here also found GA a tough proposition. So we will all continue to have our different opinions, none of which are exclusively 'correct'. And I can believe it is either a really, really hard 8a+, or a soft 8b and you couldn't floss between the two.
And, yes, one day I will get back on it...
I could run up the groove on GA, rest completely on the jug then fall off the next move. The way I did it was not resting, a quick shake and power on through (using the Dunning semi-mantle).
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I'd like to say I don't care, but I clearly do... i reckon I'd be more motivated to get back on GA if I was going to be rewarded with an 8b tick!!
I find this truly baffling; if those moves up and exiting the groove aren't motivation enough then it's time to take up road biking!
I think it's bang on at the grade and I'm short enough that I can't rely on the knee beyond the two crimps. There's plenty of range at Kilnsey at 8a+. Have a look at Vanilla Path and They Brush Me!
I hear you Paul - I'm well aware that it's a great route, regardless of the grade. But I did climb that excellent groove a lot, only to continually fall off the same move to the crimp high up repeatedly. I found it a total heartbreaker, all the more so because other people were declaring how easy they found it! It made me feel marginally better to hear a few peeps on here also found GA a tough proposition. So we will all continue to have our different opinions, none of which are exclusively 'correct'. And I can believe it is either a really, really hard 8a+, or a soft 8b and you couldn't floss between the two.
And, yes, one day I will get back on it...
I could run up the groove on GA, rest completely on the jug then fall off the next move. The way I did it was not resting, a quick shake and power on through (using the Dunning semi-mantle).
Skills. Good to know Andy, thanks, will bear that in mind on the rematch.
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Sorry, I meant upgrades.
But, IMO if GA were 8b then that would throw a few other things off (including relative to other crags like Cheedale Cornice
Obvious example is RnP, which has far better claim to being 8b than GA for mine...! Absolutely, fully, nails.
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Meanwhile back to the original topic 60 miles away https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/raven_tor_millers_dale-146/chimes_alternative-195341
Fixed
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Obvious example is RnP, which has far better claim to being 8b than GA for mine...! Absolutely, fully, nails.
#toohardforCaff?
TBH I thought this was fair at 8a+ just quite morpho through that overlap (and I lacked the toe skills to entertain the Bonjoy beta). The first time I made it through that move a miscommunication meant my belayer (wife) heard take and ran backwards pulling me off after I resisted briefly. Thankfully it went next RP and marital harmony was restored.
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Meanwhile back to the original topic 60 miles away https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/raven_tor_millers_dale-146/chimes_alternative-195341
Fixed
Bravo!
(not to mention everything you've done to access the best of Peak lime for everyone).
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Nice one, cheers Kristian. :great: