UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: andy popp on July 28, 2021, 06:07:07 pm
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The Gwynedd slate landscape has been awarded UNESCO World Heritage Site status:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/28/welsh-slate-landscape-becomes-uks-newest-world-heritage-site
I think this is a remarkable and very welcome designation. There are some incredble stats in the article; for example, in 1830, half the buildings in New York were roofed with Welsh slate. The article doesn't mention this, but I would interested to know if the official communication says anything about the landscape's post-industrial life, including as a setting for leisure activities.
This comes shortly after Liverpool's deselection last week, a decision I understand but disagree with.
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I totally agree with you Andy. I've always thought the slate quarries were incredibly beautiful places. One of the most inspiring things I've ever read on climbing was Paul Pritchard's piece slateheads in OTE many years ago.
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Don't forget Grimer's Jamcrack podcast with Paul Pritchard reading the piece as well...reckon I've listened to it about 10 times, the combination of the prose, the accent and the delivery lends it a really evocative air.
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This comes shortly after Liverpool's deselection last week, a decision I understand but disagree with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_UNESCO_World_Heritage_Sites
Interesting read.
I think it's great news for the quarries, I find them fascinating places.
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Given the strong class divide in that industry, there’s some irony in calling the quarries posh. Unless you’re English, of course…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_industry_in_Wales
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Yes, the thread title is very deliberately ironic.
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I totally agree with you Andy. I've always thought the slate quarries were incredibly beautiful places. One of the most inspiring things I've ever read on climbing was Paul Pritchard's piece slateheads in OTE many years ago.
Guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think they are awesome in a post apocalypse way but overall as ugly as fuck and ruin the mountain landscapes.
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One of my favourite short climbing films, in which Pritchard and Dawes return to the Rainbow Slab:
https://vimeo.com/30899616
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They have an eerie charm but overall I’d take Cloggy over Dal’s Hole.
Yes, the thread title is very deliberately ironic.
;D
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They're both. Ugliness-beauty duality. Hideous scars on the landscape, but hideously impressive and dramatic. Masses of disturbing and desolate choss, but close up some truly aesthetic sheets of austere and subtly tinted rock.
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They're both. Ugliness-beauty duality. Hideous scars on the landscape, but hideously impressive and dramatic. Masses of disturbing and desolate choss, but close up some truly aesthetic sheets of austere and subtly tinted rock.
THISSSSSSS. And freighted with so much rich and painful human history, of all the people who worked there. These are haunted landscapes.
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It must have been incredibly dangerous work, wonder how many lives were lost?
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Yes. I don't see how they can ruin anything. This isn't wilderness. They are simply there, another integral part of a landscape shaped by humans in many ways over millennia.
As an aside. I once picked up an Aussie or Kiwi (sorry, can't remember which now) hitcher as I headed to 'Beris. As we came to the point coming down the Pass at which the spoil heaps are suddenly revealed, he uttered the immortal line: "Fuck me, you've got a lot of gravel."
And, yes, the film of Paul and Johnny returning to the Rainbow is lovely.
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It must have been incredibly dangerous work, wonder how many lives were lost?
There's a route named '362', it's how many quarry workers died just in Dinorwig. Not far off the number of UK military killed in Afghanistan..
When you think how many Welsh slate quarries and mines there are dotted all over, the total number of workers killed in the production of slate would have been immense. The history is worth learning, it was another form of slavery going on closer to home, during and long after the more well know atlantic slaving. Imposed on cheap Welsh labour by wealthy capitalists.
Funny to think the working quarry in Bethesda is a UNESCO site. It's a shit hole.
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There's a point somewhere about designer danger fabricated on the canvas of previous hard graft. People with time on their hands dancing around on the slabs formed by people with less choices, and perhaps Sunday off for a proper wash and clean clothes. Something something.
Can't believe that movie is 10 years old now!
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It must have been incredibly dangerous work, wonder how many lives were lost?
There's a route named '362', it's how many quarry workers died just in Dinorwig. Not far off the number of UK military killed in Afghanistan..
When you think how many Welsh slate quarries and mines there are dotted all over, the total number of workers killed in the production of slate would have been immense. The history is worth learning, it was another form of slavery going on closer to home, during and long after the more well know atlantic slaving. Imposed on cheap Welsh labour by wealthy capitalists.
Been doing some reading, interestign stuff - there must have been masses of horrible injuries too, and from what I can see, a lot of long term respiratory issues. 200 years of operation, and stopped about when I was born.
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It must have been incredibly dangerous work, wonder how many lives were lost?
There's a route named '362', it's how many quarry workers died just in Dinorwig.
Immense and terrible as that number is, I'm actually a little surprised it's not higher.
That said (and I might be about to make myself really unpopular), we don't need to make erroneous comparisons to the Atlantic slave trade/slavery in the Americas to acknowledge the sufferings endured by Welsh slate mining communities. The comparison doesn't stand and doesn't serve either group well.
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Fair point. But the term ‘slavery’ seems an apt one to describe the power imbalance and working conditions of the slate quarrying industry.
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It must have been incredibly dangerous work, wonder how many lives were lost?
There's a route named '362', it's how many quarry workers died just in Dinorwig. Not far off the number of UK military killed in Afghanistan..
When you think how many Welsh slate quarries and mines there are dotted all over, the total number of workers killed in the production of slate would have been immense. The history is worth learning, it was another form of slavery going on closer to home, during and long after the more well know atlantic slaving. Imposed on cheap Welsh labour by wealthy capitalists.
Been doing some reading, interestign stuff - there must have been masses of horrible injuries too, and from what I can see, a lot of long term respiratory issues. 200 years of operation, and stopped about when I was born.
Yeah, I have a non-climber friend whose great-grandad (IIRC) was a quarryman around there; he was in charge of blasting because he was deaf already so it didn't matter that the job inevitably destroyed your hearing. This is brutal industrial history.
I love "362" as a route name because it's climbers remembering and respecting the quarrymen.
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:pissed:p
Fair point. But the term ‘slavery’ seems an apt one to describe the power imbalance and working conditions of the slate quarrying industry.
…. Tin mines, Lead mines, Coal mines, Mills, even Farms.
Our history really does float on oceans of working class blood, doesn’t it?
Possibly, having the right skin colour made escaping that fate somewhat easier; but in the grand scheme, the slaves and the labouring classes, sat a couple of steps apart in the basement of a rather tall building.
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There's a point somewhere about designer danger fabricated on the canvas of previous hard graft. People with time on their hands dancing around on the slabs formed by people with less choices, and perhaps Sunday off for a proper wash and clean clothes. Something something.
You could also say essentially the same thing in a non-pejorative way - people in a brighter time expressing their freedom by creating meaning and beauty on the scars of a painful past.
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It must have been incredibly dangerous work, wonder how many lives were lost?
There's a route named '362', it's how many quarry workers died just in Dinorwig.
Immense and terrible as that number is, I'm actually a little surprised it's not higher.
I read that as being in just Dinorwig Quarry itself, which makes it considerable. I think the slate mines were far more dangerous.
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Fair point.
Thanks Pete. It's the historian in me, I just can't help being a real stickler/boring pedant on this point.
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I read that as being in just Dinorwig Quarry itself, which makes it considerable. I think the slate mines were far more dangerous.
Yes 362 deaths was just Dinorwig quarry supposedly. One among many. When you consider some of the underground mining operations around Blaenau.. cwmorthin mine for e.g. supposedly had the nickname ‘the abattoir’.
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Imposed on cheap Welsh labour by wealthy capitalists.
Something I'm interested in - and perhaps Andy might have an insight into - is how much labour mobility was possible in the era of the slate mines? I mean, at one time everyone in the UK lived in the countryside or small towns, and then a huge number of them lived in big cities, so clearly people did move. I know from my own family history that my ancestors on one side moved from Norfolk to Leeds in the early 19th century, and on the other side from Ireland to Manchester somewhat later. In fact of the Manchester lot my direct ancestor was the only one of his family not to go to America in the Edwardian period.
So what was stopping the Welsh miners from leaving this clearly awful industrial environment?
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Leave it for life in a tenement and work in a factory, shipyard or mill?
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Imposed on cheap Welsh labour by wealthy capitalists.
Something I'm interested in - and perhaps Andy might have an insight into
So what was stopping the Welsh miners from leaving this clearly awful industrial environment?
Not my area at all, but in a broad sense they were free to leave - and did. Indeed, in an exchange with Paul Pritchard earlier today he told me about a group of around 300 Welsh slate miners who established a town called Bangor in Tasmania in the later nineteenth century. Labour also frequently left the industry during disputes and then decided not to return.
Slate quarry labour was organized on a "gang" system, and so they were in effect subcontractors, not employees. So they weren't contractually tied. Some may have lived in tied cottages (pure speculation), as some agricultural labourers did, and this could form a strong barrier/discentive to mobility. Truck systems could tie labour to an employer but I doubt this was a factor and certainly not by the second half of the C19th. The Poor Law could also tie people to a locale (you were only eligible for "outdoor relief" in your own parish) but again very unlikely to be a factor after the law's reform in 1815.
So if people could move, why didn't they? Community. Pride. We see these factors strongly at work in coal mining communities over very long periods of time - and coal mining was another very unpleasant and dangerous job (in 1913 439 died in the single worst British mining accident). I expect most Welsh slate miners also spoke Welsh and so faced language barriers too.
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Not my area at all, but in a broad sense they were free to leave - and did. Indeed, in an exchange with Paul Pritchard earlier today he told me about a group of around 300 Welsh slate miners who established a town called Bangor in Tasmania in the later nineteenth century. Labour also frequently left the industry during disputes and then decided not to return.
Slate quarry labour was organized on a "gang" system, and so they were in effect subcontractors, not employees. So they weren't contractually tied. Some may have lived in tied cottages (pure speculation), as some agricultural labourers did, and this could form a strong barrier/discentive to mobility. Truck systems could tie labour to an employer but I doubt this was a factor and certainly not by the second half of the C19th. The Poor Law could also tie people to a locale (you were only eligible for "outdoor relief" in your own parish) but again very unlikely to be a factor after the law's reform in 1815.
So if people could move, why didn't they? Community. Pride. We see these factors strongly at work in coal mining communities over very long periods of time - and coal mining was another very unpleasant and dangerous job (439 died in the single worst British mining accident in 1813). I expect most Welsh slate miners also spoke Welsh and so faced language barriers too.
Thanks Andy, some very interesting insights there.
I don't know much about mining communities other than the usual cliches, but there does seem to be something about that life that creates bonds that were very hard to break. It's very telling that when the Welsh miners did decide to take advantage of the mobility that living inside the British Empire offered, they went to Tasmania en masse rather than as individuals seeking their fortune.
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Leave it for life in a tenement and work in a factory, shipyard or mill?
Well, yes! We know that a lot of people found the new cities preferable to the countryside because they chose (and continue to choose, in China, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc) to make that move. And cities were not static places, there was a wider range of jobs, unions, workers education, the possibility of marrying up, general mobility.
So I'm wondering what it was that kept them tethered to the slate mines. A level of poverty worse than the Irish who came during the Famine? Some kind of cultural bonds that made stepping out incredibly difficult? A lack of contacts in the big cities to whom they could turn for help?
Btw this post should be before my reply to Andy but I can't use computer too good.
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As Andy said, language, although there were larger industrial cities in South Wales, but also sense of community, acceptance of your lot, and not a lot of desire for / belief in upward mobility.
Straying off topic, but I think this is part of the reason why so many young men joined up in the early days of WWI; many had never even left their home town, and going to war was seen as something new and exciting.
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I don't know much about mining communities other than the usual cliches, but there does seem to be something about that life that creates bonds that were very hard to break.
In this respect its worth noting that miners, though very akin to other mass industrial employees in most aspects of their experience of work, actually lived in rural/village communities or contexts. I would much prefer to ascribe a lack of mobility to positive motives (e.g. community) over negative ones (lack of belief/ambition).
We tend to have a very negative view of Victorian cities as Dickensian hellholes, but they simply did offer more opportunities, especially over time, as the cities themselves changed, occupational profiles changed, and as generations experienced mobility. The son or grandson of a farm labourer who moved to the city in 1850 might have found themselves a clerk working in a clean and comfy office by 1900.
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My house, is built on the site of the worst of the old farm cottages, for the farm attached to Cary Castle estate. They were only demolished 35/40 years ago and our house takes the same footprint as three of those cottages and some more besides.
Thats one three bed detached on a site that housed three families at the lowest end of the farm employment scale. Next door to us, are two cottages that once housed a higher echelon of farm hand and family. They’re tiny.
My Grandfather grew up in Coventry. One of thirteen children (only ten of whom made it past the age of five) in a single room and one mattress (no bed) for them all. His Father, gassed in the trenches, could only manage basic work at (I think) a foundry and his mother (a Romani) took in washing to feed the kids.
He was evacuated to Buckfastleigh, at 12 years old, spent the war there. His “home” was destroyed, father killed and the family rehoused.
At the end of his evacuation, he returned to Coventry for the few weeks remaining before his 16th birthday and then returned to Buckfastleigh.
He made no bones whatsoever about which was the better life.
Then got conscripted into National service in the Navy, of course…
The stories Great grandma Glover and my Grandfather and his siblings told of the slums of Coventry were almost gothic in their creeping horror. Eventually, the whole lot ended up in Devon (and all either RN or RM).
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As Andy said, language, although there were larger industrial cities in South Wales, but also sense of community, acceptance of your lot, and not a lot of desire for / belief in upward mobility.
Part of me finds this a perfectly reasonable explanation. But another part of me says you could say the same about people rural India and yet tens of thousands of people arrive in Mumbai and Delhi from the countryside every day. So I guess mining communities must show these traits to an unusual degree, in fact to a degree I personally find incomprensible; my own family background is marinated in the liberal, free-wheeling Britain that existed alongside more cloistered communities.
Or... perhaps there were material considerations we're unfamiliar with, eg did the slate boomtime coincide with the long depression of the late 19th century? All I can conclude is that my knowlege of Victorian Britain is a bit woeful.
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I don't know much about mining communities other than the usual cliches, but there does seem to be something about that life that creates bonds that were very hard to break.
In this respect its worth noting that miners, though very akin to other mass industrial employees in most aspects of their experience of work, actually lived in rural/village communities or contexts. I would much prefer to ascribe a lack of mobility to positive motives (e.g. community) over negative ones (lack of belief/ambition).
We tend to have a very negative view of Victorian cities as Dickensian hellholes, but they simply did offer more opportunities, especially over time, as the cities themselves changed, occupational profiles changed, and as generations experienced mobility. The son or grandson of a farm labourer who moved to the city in 1850 might have found themselves a clerk working in a clean and comfy office by 1900.
Yes, this. My great x ? grandfather joined a factory as a clerk and ended up marrying the owner's daughter, good work on his behalf and not the sort of opportunity that would have arisen in the countryside I'm sure.
When I was working in Bangladesh I had a very interesting chat about factory workers in Dhaka with my Bangladeshi colleague. He reckoned that there was a fairly substantial class of new arrivals working in garment factories who had thrown off the shackles of village life, for example cohabiting rather than getting married, ignoring caste boundaries, etc. Cities are exciting.
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It’s a common phenomenon. Exodus to the cities transformed the social landscape of Spain in the C20, from one where people predominantly lived in rural villages rather than cities to the reverse.
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Part of me finds this a perfectly reasonable explanation. But another part of me says you could say the same about people rural India and yet tens of thousands of people arrive in Mumbai and Delhi from the countryside every day. ......... All I can conclude is that my knowledge of Victorian Britain is a bit woeful.
to quote Hartley - The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there
My knowledge of British history is even more woeful than yours I expect.
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Imposed on cheap Welsh labour by wealthy capitalists.
Something I'm interested in - and perhaps Andy might have an insight into - is how much labour mobility was possible in the era of the slate mines? I mean, at one time everyone in the UK lived in the countryside or small towns, and then a huge number of them lived in big cities, so clearly people did move. I know from my own family history that my ancestors on one side moved from Norfolk to Leeds in the early 19th century, and on the other side from Ireland to Manchester somewhat later. In fact of the Manchester lot my direct ancestor was the only one of his family not to go to America in the Edwardian period.
So what was stopping the Welsh miners from leaving this clearly awful industrial environment?
Like Andy said I think a lot did leave. I met a group of climbers in the Andes who were from the Welsh colony in Chilean Patagonia. All very latin-american looking, but with names such as Iewyn Davies and Thomas ap Griffith : )
The ones who didn't leave and worked in the quarries, maybe they were the frogs in the slowly boiling pot. Why does anyone stay where they are? Perhaps they liked it there. People aren't the rational actors of economics but nor are they completely helpless. There's enough fuzziness in the margins to end up exploited by others who see weak people as opportunity, or doing very well for yourself by taking opportunities.
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Bolting can now be seen as damaging the site!
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It must have been incredibly dangerous work, wonder how many lives were lost?
There's a route named '362', it's how many quarry workers died just in Dinorwig.
Immense and terrible as that number is, I'm actually a little surprised it's not higher.
That said (and I might be about to make myself really unpopular), we don't need to make erroneous comparisons to the Atlantic slave trade/slavery in the Americas to acknowledge the sufferings endured by Welsh slate mining communities. The comparison doesn't stand and doesn't serve either group well.
Yet the companies controlled pretty much every aspect of the lives of families who worked for them and like slaves that was because their lives were regarded as commodities. I always find the museum visit very moving.
https://museum.wales/slate/
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For these interested, here is the relevant UNESCO page: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1633/
Clicking on the document tab gives access to the nomination document and the management plan (as well as other materials). I've downloaded and very briefly scanned the nomination document - it looks to be a fascinating piece of work and likely to answer many of the questions we were ineptly stumbling towards yesterday, particularly what it was that these people found of value in the culture, communities and lives they built in the region. From a first glance, I'd recommend it to anyone wanting to learn more.
Unsurprisingly, there is quite a bit of emphasis on the importance of leisure and tourism - including "adventure tourism" - to the region's economy today, as well as mention of "mountaineering" as one of the earliest forms of tourism in the area. Similar points are made in the management plan, which I've looked at much more briefly.
It's worth noting that all six "elements" of the site (which cover much more than the quarries) are already in designated areas of landscape protection, most (All? Not totally sure on that point) as part of the National Park, the highest form of landscape protection in the UK. The site is highly diverse and dispersed and has multiple different owners. Designation as a Unesco World Heritage site has no impact on current ownership structures. Make of that what you will. As I said, I've only given any of it the briefest of skims.
Finally, I wish people would stop making the comparison to enslavement - it's wrong.
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The link to UNESCO gives a good overview of the various sites. I recommend reading the 'supplementary information' document for a flavour of the history of the area. It's nice to see it globally recognised in this way.. but I also share Habrich's cynicism about the potential for a UNESCO badge of honour to totally fuck up climbing in some areas of the quarries.
If I needed to bet on just one public body to find a way to really fuck things up for the average climber/outdoor enthusiast who just wants to go about things without being hassled, then Gwynedd county council would be high in my list (probably just behind the Great Orme country park). If I can see the potential for big tourism money in a UNESCO badge then so can Gwynedd council - guided tours, parking fees, more limitations on access to 'protect the heritage'.. is it fair enough..?
The 'adventure tourism' mentioned in the UNESCO management plan almost certainly relates to the Go Below guided 'underground adventure', who's owners have the lease for Cwmorthin mine (one of the 6 elements of the UNESCO site) . And not to your next big lead of Flashdance. Go Below pay corporation tax, rent to the large leaseholder company, bring in tourism money to the area, employ many local mine guides. You mr/mrs climber, don't.
Don't forget Dean Potter soloed Delicate Arch - UNESCO world heritage site - and the climbing community lambasted him..
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The 'adventure tourism' mentioned in the UNESCO management plan almost certainly relates to the Go Below guided
The various zip line operations get multiple mentions.
To be clear, I'm not saying everything will be just fine and dandy - I no longer know the area well enough, and certainly not the local politics, to have any real perspective. I just wanted to provide the information.
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How much of the quarries actually has agreed access for climbing and how much is just climbed on anyway? None of the quarries look to be on access land.
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Don't forget Dean Potter soloed Delicate Arch - UNESCO world heritage site - and the climbing community lambasted him..
He was lambasted because there is an agreement with NPS to allow access to other climbing in Arches NP on the understanding that the named formations are not climbed on. The fact that it is a UNESCO site as well is irrelevant.
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I'm pointing out the obvious potential for a greater focus on climbers in place like Dinorwig, as a result of gaining international recognition for its important heritage. Rarely is an increased focus from public bodies with 'heritage' to protect a positive for climbers, as Habrich points out. Hopefully Gwynedd council won't be dickheads.. feeling lucky?
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I get what you are both saying, just pointing out the irrelevance of the Potter reference.
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My first thought on hearing the awarding of world heritage status was ‘what will it do for access?’ It’s always been on an informal basis and raising the profile of a place is rarely good news for this kind of arrangement as Pete and others have said.
The parallel with Arches NP was that access was similarly formally informal. Pre-Potter, the informal agreement was don’t climb the arch on the Utah licence plate (and other famous bits). People did but kept quiet about it. Dean Potter did and publicised it with a film. It was the latter that was the real issue. Potter claimed he abided by the letter of the law, which was vague, but he sure as hell wasn’t abiding by the spirit of the arrangement. The park authority took note of this and formally banned climbing on named features and placing fixed anchors. The latter effectively ended new routing.
Yes, this. My great x ? grandfather joined a factory as a clerk and ended up marrying the owner's daughter, good work on his behalf and not the sort of opportunity that would have arisen in the countryside I'm sure.
When I was working in Bangladesh I had a very interesting chat about factory workers in Dhaka with my Bangladeshi colleague. He reckoned that there was a fairly substantial class of new arrivals working in garment factories who had thrown off the shackles of village life, for example cohabiting rather than getting married, ignoring caste boundaries, etc. Cities are exciting.
I’m not a historian but I’m from a family of migrants (Ireland and Scotland) and married to one so take an amateur interest in this.
Over the last 150 years in the UK, with surprisingly little variation over that time, 2/3 of people move in the early part of their life but most moves are local: to a different street in the same city or nearby town in the same county. Welsh mining communities are behaving similarly to the rest of the country. People like Andy, Sean and I who moved away from our homes are a minority. This behaviour is probably over-represented in climbers and their families. Folk move further away from home in the US, perhaps in other countries too. Discussion here (https://www.cairn.info/journal-annales-de-demographie-historique-2002-2-page-119.htm) and here (https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/42710554/usbritainmobility-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1627585106&Signature=LdGLxW1pDuUB3Nkdr8HRkqCQL6X7IjjTdHxAyxm~CWMd0LTPAz0I2CN7Ss7gxr6fZF-wrg2y6Elvtul7JOyJmwDQrmEdcB1FwH0sINqPmhIqZRur66qGz9e6k99S-~oEP2aopt3fUxvZG5gKE2aT9klQfQuAWXeWs7wz3trmpGyFlN~yZUOyPUQG~muK5~sqwJAHzVPGttsIAF~cc8MaUBq7mJ3tjPKmU0HNg5VbpTCIF6XYOYcY5n-xjkkAeXmeAjSFNse9hUDASx7NHgzXNF-YseEe62q4N9y1Ua0IxyA0ghRjVAwUjCdrwDogN9f1NsdFp~Pr9sMDD5wq78NIpQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA).
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Over the last 150 years in the UK, with surprisingly little variation over that time, 2/3 of people move in the early part of their life but most moves are local: to a different street in the same city or nearby town in the same county. Welsh mining communities are behaving similarly to the rest of the country. People like Andy, Sean and I who moved away from our homes are a minority. This behaviour is probably over-represented in climbers and their families. Folk move further away from home in the US, perhaps in other countries too. Discussion here (https://www.cairn.info/journal-annales-de-demographie-historique-2002-2-page-119.htm) and here (https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/42710554/usbritainmobility-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1627585106&Signature=LdGLxW1pDuUB3Nkdr8HRkqCQL6X7IjjTdHxAyxm~CWMd0LTPAz0I2CN7Ss7gxr6fZF-wrg2y6Elvtul7JOyJmwDQrmEdcB1FwH0sINqPmhIqZRur66qGz9e6k99S-~oEP2aopt3fUxvZG5gKE2aT9klQfQuAWXeWs7wz3trmpGyFlN~yZUOyPUQG~muK5~sqwJAHzVPGttsIAF~cc8MaUBq7mJ3tjPKmU0HNg5VbpTCIF6XYOYcY5n-xjkkAeXmeAjSFNse9hUDASx7NHgzXNF-YseEe62q4N9y1Ua0IxyA0ghRjVAwUjCdrwDogN9f1NsdFp~Pr9sMDD5wq78NIpQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA).
All very true Duncan, though obviously significant longer range migration did take place.
If anyone wants to read more I can recommend historian Alison Light's Common People: The History of an English Family, which tells the story of her own family's social and geographical mobility (trigger warning: she's, shall we say, somewhat on the left).
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A search of the management plan for the word 'climbing' draws no results. Mountaineering is mentioned once, as a reason for the earliest tourists to visit.
Chapter 7 Theme 4 'Enjoying the Slate Landscape' is light on recreation. This is the statement on access:
Public access is not mandatory and is not appropriate for areas of the proposed
World Heritage Site where fragile historic assets are at risk, where public safety is a
concern, or commercial operations take place. A significant proportion of the
proposed World Heritage Site lies within private ownership and a small amount of
this is on land where no public access is permitted due to the nature of the business
and/or landscape. Some locations are inaccessible as they are operational
commercial businesses (such as the parts of Dinorwig Quarry operated by Engie as
a hydro power station) and other locations are inaccessible due to their dangerous
nature (such as underground workings, abandoned buildings or flooded quarry-
pits). In such circumstances, controlled access can be facilitated through guided
visits and tours, but unregulated access and trespass will also need to be addressed.
I'm sure this (the omission not the access statement) could be reversed Yosemite-style with the right presentation. Much is made of the importance of visitors understanding of the landscape, I think climbing culture has been very good at that, whilst offering a reimagination of the dereliction that neither disregards or seeks to erase the history. Unregulated access should be a goal where possible.
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My first response, on a FB post before Andy posted it on here, was speculating on whether there could be any access issues... I probably should have posted the same thing on here but I assumed someone else would.
I would hope not, partly because it's hard to see how climbers' interference could "spoil the natural beauty of the landscape etc etc" , and partly because hopefully the slateheads could argue for the cultural significance of the slate climbing in the Welsh climbing scene (a lot richer and more important heritage than, say, Horseshoe). And on the subject of Horseshoe-likes, the disproportionate popularity of the recent grid bolted bumblefests probably has some value to the local economy.
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I don't recall much discussion of why coal miners didn't leave South Yorkshire for a better life elsewhere; given the standards of the times I can't see conditions were that different, plus they didn't have language issues to contend with. I imagine there was a lot of pride in doing 'man's work' exporting a 'world-beating local product'. Calum Muskett told me (in a different debate) that Wales had clearances like Scotland but I've found no evidence online.
While the culture of the Caban suggests a refreshingly un-macho atmosphere, I've been surprised at the reluctance to adopt basic safety measures on many sites I've visited over the last 20 years. Most concerning was an exhibition centre in London where a guy had fallen 50m to a messy death on a concrete floor but his workmates were not keen to wear harnesses as they 'weren't shit like him'.
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I'm slightly regretting the rather flippant title I gave this thread. Can a mod change it to something like "Welsh Slate Landscape Given Unesco World Heritage status." Thanks.
It's been an interesting thread though.
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I'm slightly regretting the rather flippant title I gave this thread.
I think almost all of us got it. And actually the "flippant" title captures the irony or duality of the situation very well to those who know anything about it.
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I actually used to live in a UNESCO world heritage site, designated for its industrial heritage.
2 up, 2 down, perishingly cold, damp on the walls, but by God the flat whites in the local cafes could knock you dead.
And that's in a place which is famous for the cosy conditions offered to the workers.
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I was thinking of old Titus Salt earlier in the thread, wasn't he one of the first industrialists who saw treating his workers better as being beneficial to productivity?
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I don't recall much discussion of why coal miners didn't leave South Yorkshire for a better life elsewhere; given the standards of the times I can't see conditions were that different, plus they didn't have language issues to contend with. I imagine there was a lot of pride in doing 'man's work' exporting a 'world-beating local product'. Calum Muskett told me (in a different debate) that Wales had clearances like Scotland but I've found no evidence online.
While the culture of the Caban suggests a refreshingly un-macho atmosphere, I've been surprised at the reluctance to adopt basic safety measures on many sites I've visited over the last 20 years. Most concerning was an exhibition centre in London where a guy had fallen 50m to a messy death on a concrete floor but his workmates were not keen to wear harnesses as they 'weren't shit like him'.
I’m pretty sure there’s been quite a few books, plays and movies/TV programs on or around this topic, across a range of similar/connected industries, not least “Billy Eliot” at the (possibly) more flippant end through to “The Black Stuff” and the subsequent TV series (in a “similar” industry/ area of thought).
Mostly the themes seem to revolve around perceived identity (in particular, notions of masculinity). I’m not sure that it isn’t akin to supporting, devoutly, a team under relegation and decline. It’s just incredibly difficult for some people to move on or “abandon” elements of their identity. Surely, you could cite many, seemingly unconnected, incidences of behaviour which probably have a similar root cause; such as the inability to move on at the end of a relationship etc.
All personality aspects that vary from person to person. Some people cope with change or loss well, some run away, some collapse, some shrug shoulders and some plough on regardless. I can’t see it being region or industry specific, simply human.
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How much of the quarries actually has agreed access for climbing and how much is just climbed on anyway? None of the quarries look to be on access land.
Climbing is not officially sanctioned in any of the slate quarries. It is tolerated, partly because the landowners (First Hydro/Cyngor Gwynedd) know that it is impossible to police and also because they know that climbers are generally a force for good (clean up party mess, can rescue stray walkers who get in trouble, occasionally rescue stuck animals etc)
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What about divers?
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Climbing is not officially sanctioned in any of the slate quarries. It is tolerated, partly because the landowners (First Hydro/Cyngor Gwynedd) know that it is impossible to police and also because they know that climbers are generally a force for good (clean up party mess, can rescue stray walkers who get in trouble, occasionally rescue stuck animals etc)
Thanks Simon I thought this was the case, is there any potential to make the access more official with the land owners to get ahead of any future issues?
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For these interested, here is the relevant UNESCO page: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1633/
Clicking on the document tab gives access to the nomination document and the management plan (as well as other materials). I've downloaded and very briefly scanned the nomination document - it looks to be a fascinating piece of work and likely to answer many of the questions we were ineptly stumbling towards yesterday, particularly what it was that these people found of value in the culture, communities and lives they built in the region. From a first glance, I'd recommend it to anyone wanting to learn more.
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Finally, I wish people would stop making the comparison to enslavement - it's wrong.
Thanks Andy, really good link. I read a bit of the history and background of the miners over breakfast this morning and it did indeed shed light on what we were discussing yesterday. From my brief reading, before the Industrial Revolution those guys were living on farms and wearing homespun cloth, total peasants, and as the quarries develop (funded at least in part by Caribbean plantation profits) many of them become highly skilled tradesmen. Many of them move from surrounding areas, places like Bethesda become small towns, there is a strong workers' community prizing education, literacy and debating (the caban culture JB refers to above, which I had heard of before but forgotten about). Skilled N Wales quarrymen find themselves in demand worldwide and one even ends up as a Fellow of the Royal Society. (This is all section 2b, well worth a read.)
So basically all the stuff that we associate with moving from the countryside to Manchester or Leeds took place in N Wales, albeit on a smaller scale. There's a great quote in the text from a history of the quarries:
"The confident culture of Welsh-speaking Wales, with its vigorous community life, its traditions of poetry, music-making and the visual arts, and its respect for learning, reflects how a once slow-moving, traditional minority culture adapted in the classic “Industrial” period and could meet new challenges again. The past tells a story in which confidence and a willingness to learn, to contemplate change and to engage with a new world, emerge as the main themes, more so even than the undoubted realities of sickness, exploitation
and fear which came with industrialisation."
So it would seem not slaves at all.
There's also I guess an interesting question about the role of capital, or "exploitative capitalists" as some posters might characterise them. Whilst not wanting to play down the brutality of Victorian capitalism, clearly without the injection of money and know-how into the industry the workers would not have been able to enjoy the improved pay and conditions that (eventually, hopefully) come from working in a much larger, more productive industry. It totally reminds me of the garment factories in Bangladesh - terrible conditions, exploitative, but also offering opportunities that don't exist in the village and giving the country as a whole a route out of poverty.
As for climbers, I think we have a story to tell that fits in quite well with the themes prevalent in the UNESCO documents: self-reliance, adaptability, a creative response to the post-industrial world. Given the rickety access situation, it seems to me that climbers should consider persauding the heritage bodies and others that we have a (small) place in the story of the quarries and that we represent one continuing use of them into the future. If climbing and seabirds can exist on the same cliffs then so can climbing and archeology - I think we have a strong precedent in the UK as to our general good behaviour and flexibility (also with the MoD in Pembroke). Not trying to play down the risks here or deny that local councils can often be destructive and idiotic, more saying that there are other people we can talk to if necessary who may be sympathetic and can bring pressure to bear, should it be necessary.
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Fair point. But the term ‘slavery’ seems an apt one to describe the power imbalance and working conditions of the slate quarrying industry.
Interesting letter to the Grauniad on just this theme today:
quote:
Your article (Welsh slate landscape becomes UK’s newest world heritage site, 28 July) did not mention the origins of the finance that enabled the expansion of the slate quarries at the end of the 18th century. In 1781, Richard Pennant inherited the family’s estates in Jamaica and in north Wales. He owned four sugar plantations in Jamaica, worked by more than a thousand enslaved workers. The money Pennant generated from sugar and slavery in Jamaica was invested in building road, railway and port infrastructure, as well as expanding the slate industry in Wales, in particular his Penrhyn slate quarry.
Pennant became MP for Petersfield in 1761 and, in 1767, one of the two MPs for Liverpool, Britain’s major slave trading port. He was chairman of the West India Committee, an organisation of merchants and plantation owners that campaigned for the continuation of slavery. He frequently spoke in the Commons against abolition of the slave trade.
The Pennant family continued to profit from both slate quarrying in Wales and slave-produced sugar and rum from Jamaica. Penrhyn Castle was built between 1822 and 1833 on the instructions of George Hay Dawkins-Pennant, who had inherited Richard Pennant’s estates in north Wales and Jamaica. Under the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, he received £14,683 17s 2d in compensation for the 764 enslaved labourers he claimed to own.
There is already a plaque in memory of the three-year Penrhyn quarrymen’s strike of 1900-03. Perhaps the Welsh government might like to consider another plaque in memory of the hundreds of enslaved labourers who were worked to death on the Pennants’ Jamaican plantations.
Dr Steve Cushion
Leytonstone, London
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Interestingly, though, this thread has concentrated much more on the men who worked the slate, than the men who’s fortunes financed the projects and I suspect that is going to be the case for the vast majority of those who visit or think about it at all. In fact, the “owners” when mentioned, seem to be regarded in a negative light, even by those sufficiently interested in finding out much about them.
Karma.
There has been some discussion, up thread, about reasons for migration, or lack there of. Got me reading (I love a good rabbit hole, me).
I came across this study, after idly wondering how dangerous an occupation such as being a Postman, might be, in comparison to something that seems so obviously dangerous as Quarryman. I still haven’t answered that, but this was intriguing.:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305748820300335 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305748820300335)
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Climbing is not officially sanctioned in any of the slate quarries. It is tolerated, partly because the landowners (First Hydro/Cyngor Gwynedd) know that it is impossible to police and also because they know that climbers are generally a force for good (clean up party mess, can rescue stray walkers who get in trouble, occasionally rescue stuck animals etc)
Thanks Simon I thought this was the case, is there any potential to make the access more official with the land owners to get ahead of any future issues?
I doubt they would ever agree to that. The quarries are, after all, pretty unstable. There are regular rock falls, sometimes huge sections of cliff peeling off (Vivian is quite prone to this - check out the approach to Comes the Dervish nect time you are in Llanberis if you want to see what I mean!) I think the low key approach to access is the best way. We just keep on doing what we've always done but don't make too much fuss about it. The times when things have come to a head have been when our presence was too public, such as when large groups used to congregate at that easy bolted slab in Dali's Hole. This was in full view of the main path through the quarries so the landowner started to get nervous. A massive fence was erected and the bolts were removed. The climbers then all disappeared out of sight up into Australia - problem solved.
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The quarries still seem to draw out the creative side of the local community. During the Covid restrictions last year the Glyn Rhonwy quarries especially were buzzing with activity. There were climbers cleaning up neglected routes, mountain bikers building trails, we even started bouldering on the remains of an old Haston E6 which had collapsed into the base of one of the quarries. I know someone who built themselves a little gym facility out of old quarry stuff. It's a strange and inspiring landscape to hang out in, full of startling places and random bits of art or old buildings and tunnels where you can shelter if the rain comes in.
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I took what might have been one of my best B&W portraits of hongkongstuey while sitting in a hut in a quarry waiting for the rain. Must have it somewhere.
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I'm not sure how many of you own a copy of the Ground Up Llanberis Slate guide from 2011, but it includes some great writing by Martin Crook about the history of the development of the quarries in the '80s. Martin paints a vivid picture of that anarchic scene but also makes some interesting connections between the lives of the original quarrymen and the latter day lycra-clad dole boys.
There's also a brilliant poem by Mark Goodwin called In Slate's Hands which overlays a shot of Ian Lloyd-Jones climbing in Twll Mawr. Ian was one of the most prolific new routers and his grandfather and great grandfather were quarrymen. The connections down through the different generations definitely exist and are still strongly felt.
When I was editing that book I knew it was important to dig into these deeper themes. Just walking round the quarries you can feel it in the air. I couldn't ignore it, I knew I had to try and capture some of that feeling and sense of history.
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I took what might have been one of my best B&W portraits of hongkongstuey while sitting in a hut in a quarry waiting for the rain. Must have it somewhere.
Love to see that if you can find it.
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Some really interesting posts Simon, thank you.
Article in the Guardian that makes a connection between the quarrymen and the climbers (positively or not, I'm not sure).
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/30/slate-quarries-wales-world-heritage-status
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Via twitter, I asked one of the project team if they felt the designation would have any implications - positive or negative - for climbers. This was the answer:
"that's a v fair question, certainly know how important the climbing is and we mention it in the document too as part of the history. WHS will not change that, nor will the status stop it, as there are no new rules or regs other than existing ones in place to manage it."
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That's good.
Also Slate 2011 is an essential guide, including for the quality of the colour text, pity it never got a reprint.
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As someone pointed out on the other channel, Portland and that entire coast is a World Heritage site, and that doesn’t seem to have had an impact on the climbing there, although I guess the access situation is v different.
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I think the low key approach to access is the best way. We just keep on doing what we've always done but don't make too much fuss about it.
Via twitter, I asked one of the project team if they felt the designation would have any implications - positive or negative - for climbers.
:slap: ;)
That 2011 slate guide is a masterpiece. When I first got into climbing I was fascinated by slate but there was no guide in print- first time I went I had only a then ten-year-old copy of a climbing magazine I’d found as a guide :lol: and when the guide did come out I read it from cover to cover. Such a shame to see it elbowed out of the way by a cookie-cutter replacement.
When my mates from the US came over I was on crutches but hired an automatic car and was able to take them to easily-accessible crags. Determined to show them climbing outside the Peak we went to Wales for the day and it was an experience they’ll never forget. Before we left they were asking if they needed their passports, they learnt that Wales had its own language when the road signs became bilingual and that the flag had a dragon on it (it’s pretty wild when you think about it!) from seeing it out of the window at Pete’s. Obviously mountain crags were out of the question but determination got me around quarries with them. They loved it- full awestruck scenes entering Australia, terror and amazement on Looning the Tube, Seams the Same was my mate’s first E1 and I took my first unassisted steps below Mental Lentils. One of the best days of my life I reckon.
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I think the low key approach to access is the best way. We just keep on doing what we've always done but don't make too much fuss about it.
Via twitter, I asked one of the project team if they felt the designation would have any implications - positive or negative - for climbers.
:slap: ;)
That 2011 slate guide is a masterpiece.
Um, I think they know climbing takes place, there being guides and all.
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I'm not sure how many of you own a copy of the Ground Up Llanberis Slate guide from 2011, but it includes some great writing by Martin Crook about the history of the development of the quarries in the '80s. Martin paints a vivid picture of that anarchic scene but also makes some interesting connections between the lives of the original quarrymen and the latter day lycra-clad dole boys.
There's also a brilliant poem by Mark Goodwin called In Slate's Hands which overlays a shot of Ian Lloyd-Jones climbing in Twll Mawr. Ian was one of the most prolific new routers and his grandfather and great grandfather were quarrymen. The connections down through the different generations definitely exist and are still strongly felt.
When I was editing that book I knew it was important to dig into these deeper themes. Just walking round the quarries you can feel it in the air. I couldn't ignore it, I knew I had to try and capture some of that feeling and sense of history.
I love that book so much! Especially the history sections.
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I took what might have been one of my best B&W portraits of hongkongstuey while sitting in a hut in a quarry waiting for the rain. Must have it somewhere.
Love to see that if you can find it.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/dbpage.php?id=1252 scan of it
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damn i look young.... guess that pic must be 22-23 years old now (have been in HK for 21-years so guess the last time i touched welsh slate was prob around 1999/2000 - a quick trip up the Mau Mau with Lucian Cottle in between downpours if i recall correctly...)
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I think it was you, me and your bro. Intent on doing Mau Mau and German Schoolgirl, but rain just got worse, ended up on the climbing wall at PyB.
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I took what might have been one of my best B&W portraits of hongkongstuey while sitting in a hut in a quarry waiting for the rain. Must have it somewhere.
Love to see that if you can find it.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/dbpage.php?id=1252 scan of it
Ha! Looks like a moody/sophisiticated press release photo for Homgkongstuey's introspective singer-songwriter album.
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The title track was called "this weather sucks balls, I'm moving somewhere warmer"
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Richard King who wrote the absolutely marvellous “The Lark Ascending” (Duncan I still have it on the shelf to lend when I next see you), one of my favourite books of 2019/20 has a new one coming out in Feb next year.
https://www.thebookseller.com/news/faber-signs-kings-landmark-welsh-history-1225510 (https://www.thebookseller.com/news/faber-signs-kings-landmark-welsh-history-1225510)
It’s called Brittle with Relics: A History of Wales, 1962–1997 covering “Aberfan, Cymdeithas, the Miners’ Strike, Meibion Glyndŵr, Language, Deindustrialisation, Culture, Second Homes, Sustainability, Devolution.” it looks really good. He’s a fabulous writer and I suspect this will be well worth reading.
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“The Lark Ascending” sounds like a Bonjoy boulder problem at a forgotten peak venue!
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With a soothing soundtrack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR2JlDnT2l8
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“The Lark Ascending” sounds like a Bonjoy boulder problem at a forgotten peak venue!
It is a boulder problem but at a very popular peak venue! Not a Bonjou one as far as I’m aware
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It's a Johnny Dawes 6C+ which is both nails and excellent. I've not done it but I've tried it quite a few times, would be great to tick.
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Martin Veale isn’t it?
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With a soothing soundtrack:
As is this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zuZn47X8kdM