UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Paul B on July 04, 2011, 11:04:12 pm
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Cornice all dry still.
Surprisingly good conditions tonight despite it being hot as hell and very humid.
Could I ask that if people are going to leave draws in (k3) they at least leave in something decent. Dogging on dyneema is painful and shit. Ignoring the fact that really, its pretty lazy to leave them in anyway (and ignoring the access points raised by JB), leaving one you can reach from the floor seems like tempting fate.
:tumble:
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Hi Paul,
Really sorry about leaving the clips in K3. I was un aware that this was part of/affected the access agreement. Unfortunately I spent longer on it than I had realised and was exceptionally late so didn't both stripping the route as I had planned on returning in the near future and yes, I agree, leaving the bottom draw in is tempting fate slightly.
With regards to the quality of the quickdraws on the route, these are the only draws I own so I didn't really have much choice. I'm surprised that with the time you saved not having to put your own draws in you didn't just swap the dyneema ones over to your decent QDs for dogging on.
Apologies once again,
Steve Franklin
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sorry my post was overly bitchy (it was meant as sarcasm), the issue I had was then what to do with them, leave them hanging on the first bolt making it even easier for someone to steal? or swap them out again after? stick them at the top of Clarion? etc.
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The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere, especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.
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The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere, especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.
I assume this is a joke?
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I'm not laughing.
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The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere, especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.
I assume this is a joke?
why?
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The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere, especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.
I assume this is a joke?
When do I ever joke.
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The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere,
This view is retarded. If you disagree, I suggest you try projecting something long and steep, especially where you don't do the moves as part of your warm up for redpoints because it's too long/painful etc. Not everywhere is like peak limestone.
especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.
...makes rather more sense, but your point would be much better made without the first part, since the important bit gets lost behind the stupid bit.
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http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4275 (http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4275)
Chee Dale Access Issues
This news article explains new ways of approaching the Dale, reminds everyone of the access and bolting agreements the BMC has negotiated with Derbyshire Wildlife Trust who own most of it........a very important point to note is that there is no public access within the Dale away from the public right of way, and as climbers we have unique negotiated concessions.
Bolting and other climbing guidelines
Bolted routes were in the main established before the Wildlife Trust acquired the site. They would very much prefer there to be no bolts or lower offs at all, but have conceded that where sport routes are established they may remain, though any replacement of fixed gear can only be on a like for like basis and should not be glaringly obvious. Routes should always be left clean of quick draws or tat.
There is an absolute embargo on bolting new routes and on retro bolting. It is really important that everyone observes this. If you came across anyone infringing this agreement please point out it could easily cost all concessionary access for everyone. The Wildlife Trust is absolutely clear this is no idle threat.
By Henry Folkard (BMC Peak Access Co-ordinator)
Clearly the relationship with the Wildlife Trust is tricky and it would help the Access reps that we abide by what has been agreed (which is not excessively onerous) to avoid a stand-off/confrontation and improve on the concessions in the future.
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Yep, Cheedale is a special case, no quickdraws to be left in to protect access and not upset people. Generally speaking though its not a problem leaving draws in and in some cases its necessary, or at least a massive pain in the arse not to. Often on very steep routes the draws go in when the route is bolted, and stay until they need changing (and often they stay in long after they need changing!).
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Anyway, this is all a bit :offtopic:
Well it was on topic here: here (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,17786.50.html) but clearly ignored.
If it takes discussing it in DFBWGC to get the message across I dont care. Same goes for pissing in the Cove Centre Car park.
There are a lot of competing interests in a crowded countryside and if we are to muddle along with other groups and landowners to continue to enjoy decent access to crags it would help the cause to behave decently.
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If people aren't supposed to leave stuff in at Chee Dale for access reasons, just say people shouldn't be leaving stuff in a Chee Dale for access reasons. This sort of thing is useful to know. If you say people shouldn't be leaving draws in anywhere you'll get ignored/questioned because it's a stupid thing to say.
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Depends on the crag obviously
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Its hardly a stupid thing to say in The Peak is it? And this is a Chee Dale thread. I can't think of a single crag in The Peak where there would be no issue whatsoever with having the crag festooned with draws. The fact is we share these places with other visitors, and I don't believe our convenience should outweigh their considerations (and neither do the landowners as a rule, in fact the opposite is true). If you want to call people ignorant or retarded than I those who ignore this fact might be more relevant.
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Cunts that puntered me - you are wrong. And I had neutral karma for a sec or two!
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If you say people shouldn't be leaving draws in anywhere you'll get ignored/questioned because it's a stupid thing to say.
I wouldn't be so sure of yourself. It's interesting that you think the widely held view in the UK is that it's OK to leave draws in. Maybe amongst your peer group, but with most of our premier sport crags being in sensitive areas, I don't think it's a good idea to adopt the common wisdom from the continent. It's common in Spain etc as there are lots of massively steep and long routes, but that isn't the case here. The very fact that someone thought leaving draws in on the Cornice would be OK proves that it's increasingly going to be an issue. I don't know when the draws were fixed in Mecca, but until that happened I can't remember ever seeing draws left in place on British sport crags. We wouldn't have any issues if the general attitude was that it's not the done thing. There are crags with new bolts in (e.g. Blue Scar) where the land owner is totally p*ssed off with the arrogant attitude of climbers, so is making it harder for us to go there. Access to our crags is only going to become more difficult in the future, and I don't see how leaving draws in place helps our cause.
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Well said. I'd add that, according those better informed than I, both the conservation movement and any dialogue between them and climbers is years ahead in the UK compared to Spain and France. I'm not sure taking what goes on there as 'the norm' is wise or applicable here.
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They've also got shitloads of amazing unclimbed crags there so it really doesn't matter too much if a crag or part of a crag is banned. The complete opposite is true here.
Arguing against this point of view is arguing in favour of risking access to the crags you want to climb on for the sake of laziness. Or in other words, rank stupidity of the highest order.
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Depends on the crag obviously
I agree with you completely there. I can see that Cheedale is not a place to leave draws hanging about. However, i cannot see that anyone would have a problem with fixed draws on North Buttress at Kilnsey, or example. (notwithstanding leaving them there over winter, but that's a seperate issue). I'd strongly argue that most non climbers would not notice fixed draws / tat anyway unless it was pretty low down. If there are associated access concerns, those should take precedence, but let's not get all excited and jump up and down about something which is probably a minor issue compared to litter, path useage, parking etc.
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They've also got shitloads of amazing unclimbed crags there so it really doesn't matter too much if a crag or part of a crag is banned. The complete opposite is true here.
Arguing against this point of view is arguing in favour of risking access to the crags you want to climb on for the sake of laziness. Or in other words, rank stupidity of the highest order.
We live in a far more densely populated country than France or Spain - hence more pressures on what small(ish) climing areas/resources there are.
Personally I'd never leave a draw in, mainly because I'm tight fisted and paranoid :) , so I'd fully expect someone to come along and claim their crag booty :) Also, with the proliferation of clip-sticks (they were never around when I was a yoof it was a stick and some finger tape..) its not that much of a chore to re-hang/equip a line is it? It is a bit lazy to leave them hanging there..
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Depends on the crag obviously
I agree with you completely there. I can see that Cheedale is not a place to leave draws hanging about. However, i cannot see that anyone would have a problem with fixed draws on North Buttress at Kilnsey, or example. (notwithstanding leaving them there over winter, but that's a seperate issue). I'd strongly argue that most non climbers would not notice fixed draws / tat anyway unless it was pretty low down. If there are associated access concerns, those should take precedence, but let's not get all excited and jump up and down about something which is probably a minor issue compared to litter, path useage, parking etc.
I can assure you that walkers and passers by are not blind and can see draws, and even bolts.
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If there are associated access concerns, those should take precedence, but let's not get all excited and jump up and down about something which is probably a minor issue compared to litter, path useage, parking etc
This is all true and I agree, but its rather harder to pin those other factors solely on climbers. I go to a lot of meetings and the issue of fixed gear on crags always comes up - folk do notice it and never like it. They rarely get the concept that you keep going back on a route and often perceive it as litter left behind during the ascent.
Also, with the proliferation of clip-sticks (they were never around when I was a yoof it was a stick and some finger tape..) its not that much of a chore to re-hang/equip a line is it?
Exactly.
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Sorry. Next time I'll remember to read 'anywhere' as 'at Chee Dale', 'in the UK' or 'at crags with potential access issues'.
The very fact that someone thought leaving draws in on the Cornice would be OK proves that it's increasingly going to be an issue.
Indeed, but I don't think the way to solve that issue is saying that no-one should leave draws in anywhere. Saying no leaving draws in at crags with sensitive access, or crags where lots of people walk right next to it or whatever makes sense, and people are more likely to listen to that IMO. If you say no draws should be left anywhere I'm far more likely to dismiss what you're saying and not take on board the important bit about areas where it's best to strip them every day. I suspect I'm not the only one who works like that.
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Personally I'd never leave a draw in, mainly because I'm tight fisted and paranoid :) , so I'd fully expect someone to come along and claim their crag booty :) Also, with the proliferation of clip-sticks (they were never around when I was a yoof it was a stick and some finger tape..) its not that much of a chore to re-hang/equip a line is it? It is a bit lazy to leave them hanging there..
Likewise. also never seen anyone take more than 10 mins to clean a single pitch sport route using various tactics, regardless of steepness.
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Indeed, but I don't think the way to solve that issue is saying that no-one should leave draws in anywhere.
Once again, I thought that was the general consensus in the UK and personally I'm struggling to think of any crags where it could be deemed acceptable. WCJ Cornice is one of the few as its hidden from the public. This currently has a mix of draws left all over it and (IMO) is a bit of a mess.
The North Buttress was mentioned earlier but I recall one of the Kilnsey guides (the green Rockfax I think) making a big point about NOT leaving draws or ropes in overnight? The other thing is it sets a precedent, if you leave your draws in Urgent action, why shouldn't the person on Comedy leave theirs in too? Whist we're at it we could save time by leaving the warmup equipped too etc. Before you know it you'll have the situation I saw in Austria where literally, faces are fully equipped (Monkey Island, Niederthai). That will have an impact.
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It is dead handy having all the situ draws and long slings for stripping and working on the left side of Raven Tor and I was very much in favour of keeping them there but this topic is making me wonder whether the pre-emptive good mannered thing to do is to strip them all irrespective of the fact that there aren't access issues and we can "get away with it" :-\
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the fact someone keeps removing a couple of them and leaving them at floor level shows a difference in opinion of how 'useful' they are.
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Indeed, but I don't think the way to solve that issue is saying that no-one should leave draws in anywhere. Saying no leaving draws in at crags with sensitive access, or crags where lots of people walk right next to it or whatever makes sense, and people are more likely to listen to that IMO.
The problem with that argument is that quite often you don't know how sensitive things are until it's too late. If we wait until some landowner has raised an objection before deciding not leave clips in we, as climbers, are already on the back foot.
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Its not true that leaving draws in anywhere is a bad idea. It's a common practice at thousands of crags all over the world (not just France/Spain). I personally wouldn't hesitate in leaving them in somewhere like LPT or the Diamond because its just not an issue. Obviously in sensitive area's people need to be made aware of all issues that could affect access.
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and causes similar problems all over the world, Roadside face Red River Gorge, banned.
"It is privately owned and these owners have finally got jacked with too many people, permadraws and questionable new routes. Ugly precedent and a wake up call..."
Which crag would you like to be our wakeup call? Unlike yourself and others on this thread, generally people aren't good enough at employing common sense from crag to crag.
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well maybe there's something to be said for getting into good habits in this country and setting good examples.
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Which crag would you like to be our wakeup call?
The Tor please ;D
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You are all fuckin hippies!
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Except Doyle. He's a Hippo.
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I can assure you that walkers and passers by are not blind and can see draws, and even bolts.
[/quote]
...i did include the proviso before that, that it depends on the crag. Cheedale, yes, i can see that they are going to be pretty obvious. Do any of the walkers at Malham notice fixed draws there? I rather think not, although if they really do and they'd rather they weren't there, i'd happily not leave draws there. Ditto North Butt at Kilnsey: do the people gawking from the road see the draws there? i seriously doubt it.
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Sorry. Next time I'll remember to read 'anywhere' as 'at Chee Dale', 'in the UK' or 'at crags with potential access issues'.
The very fact that someone thought leaving draws in on the Cornice would be OK proves that it's increasingly going to be an issue.
Indeed, but I don't think the way to solve that issue is saying that no-one should leave draws in anywhere. Saying no leaving draws in at crags with sensitive access, or crags where lots of people walk right next to it or whatever makes sense, and people are more likely to listen to that IMO. If you say no draws should be left anywhere I'm far more likely to dismiss what you're saying and not take on board the important bit about areas where it's best to strip them every day. I suspect I'm not the only one who works like that.
Perhaps some signs indicating whether its permissible to leave draws in as one approaches a crag wold be useful, after all, not everyone knows the situation at all of the crags (or where the toilets are). :P
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:D Slackers, does your house have lots of notices around the place? You know, switch the light off. Put the toilet seat down. Remember your keys. Toilet upstairs. ?? ;)
You may find this handy when out in the field..... http://www.sitorsquat.com/ (http://www.sitorsquat.com/) ;)
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Oh fuck it, it's been at least a week since I upset someone on here and it's Friday afternoon, so...
Over the years there have been many conflicts with landowners in Yorkshire over access to crags - Kilnsey, Blue and Yew all spring to mind. The same applies to many other areas of the country. Part of the issue was, and undoubtedly still is, the unsightly tat, ropes and even pots and pans that used to be left on crags before we had so many bolts. A proliferation of leaving gear in place is essentially a return to those days.
Landowners, walkers and passers by in general don't like to see a whole load of fixed gear on crags. We are lucky enough to have access to and be able to bolt these places. Is it really so hard to respect the actual or potential wishes of others and remove gear after your day on the crag if it then avoids conflict and maintains access? There really is no excuse these days when it's so easy to get the kit back in. And if you've got one of those silly little Beta sticks go to Decathlon and buy a 6m Roach pole instead - you only need to clip every third bolt!
Take your crap out of the routes and take the rest of your crap (finger tape, bog roll etc) home with you at the same time. It doesn't matter what crag you're on the same principle of leaving it in as pristine condition as possible should surely apply?
Have a good weekend stick clipping...
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:D Slackers, does your house have lots of notices around the place? You know, switch the light off. Put the toilet seat down. Remember your keys. Toilet upstairs. ?? ;)
You may find this handy when out in the field..... http://www.sitorsquat.com/ (http://www.sitorsquat.com/) ;)
I've been known to leave post it notes plastered around the house to remind my wife of things (but she does it too, currently there's a sign above my chilli plants telling me they are too big for the window sill and need moving).
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Now see what you've gone and done Steve :spank: you're a very naughty boy. And lazy. :P
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You should get those post-its cleared up Slackers before some passing walker objects
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and take the rest of your crap (finger tape, bog roll etc) home with you at the same time. It doesn't matter what crag you're on the same principle of leaving it in as pristine condition as possible should surely apply?
yeah that's utterly fair enough. All the rest of your post is a bit 'other channel' for my liking
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and take the rest of your crap (finger tape, bog roll etc) home with you at the same time. It doesn't matter what crag you're on the same principle of leaving it in as pristine condition as possible should surely apply?
yeah that's utterly fair enough. All the rest of your post is a bit 'other channel' for my liking
Don't agree - our best sports crags happen to be in popular areas of the national parks in a small and crowded country. Removing your gear is just a small hassle to stop the possibility of much bigger problems in the future.
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Unless you're a sponsored hero why would you want to leave your own draws in a route to get hammered by people dogging on them/UV?
And here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does leaving draws in a route become acceptable? Or is about people not being good enough to make quick repeats and having to use siege tactics?
When a lot of higher 8's were being repeated 15 - 20 years ago people stripped their gear at the end of the day. Arguably, being able to gear/strip routes are all part of the skills required of a sport climber - like setting up a belay is when tradding.
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Unless you're a sponsored hero why would you want to leave your own draws in a route to get hammered by people dogging on them/UV?
Because the route is steep.
Because the route is long.
Because you want to have a redpoint straight away the next day after warming up, not waste time/energy putting clips in.
Because your mate wants to have an onsight go the next day.
Because there's a section at 30m that you couldn't manage and had to haul the stick up for, but with an extended draw you can just grab it, clip and work that section without the stick.
Because I'm a lazy cunt.
And here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does leaving draws in a route become acceptable? Or is about people not being good enough to make quick repeats and having to use siege tactics?
At any grade. There's plenty of easy stuff with draws left in for a day or two, or longer, on the continent.
Here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does "having to use siege tactics" become perseverance/dedication. I've yet to hear a 9a climber dissed for sieging something...
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Unless you're a sponsored hero why would you want to leave your own draws in a route to get hammered by people dogging on them/UV?
Because the route is steep.
Because the route is long.
Because you want to have a redpoint straight away the next day after warming up, not waste time/energy putting clips in.
Because your mate wants to have an onsight go the next day.
Because there's a section at 30m that you couldn't manage and had to haul the stick up for, but with an extended draw you can just grab it, clip and work that section without the stick.
Because I'm a lazy cunt.
And here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does leaving draws in a route become acceptable? Or is about people not being good enough to make quick repeats and having to use siege tactics?
At any grade. There's plenty of easy stuff with draws left in for a day or two, or longer, on the continent.
Here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does "having to use siege tactics" become perseverance/dedication. I've yet to hear a 9a climber dissed for sieging something...
.............because climbing is the most important thing in the world? Grow up and stop being so selfish
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Unless you're a sponsored hero why would you want to leave your own draws in a route to get hammered by people dogging on them/UV?
Because the route is steep.
Because the route is long.................
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; at what grade does "having to use siege tactics" become perseverance/dedication. I've yet to hear a 9a climber dissed for sieging something...
:agree:
ditto your post mate. I reckon unless there is a access related issue with leaving draws on the sport crag in question (whilst its a current project) then it should be ok. With the caveat of removing the bottom 2 draws which should help reduce any eyesore and make it less appealing to steal.
Cheers
Tim
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Well said Norton Sharley.
Clearly as Doylo and others have said, it’s more of a problem in some places than others. But there’s really no good reason for leaving in situ draws on UK cliffs at all. They aren’t long enough or steep enough for it to be a major faff equipping them. Not only can it jeapordise access in some places / look ugly to non climbers etc etc. It’s also a pain for other climbers as Paul B said at the start – lots of people don’t want to climb a route on someone else’s draws, when they don’t know their history etc – especially if they’ve been in situ for a long time.
Clearly, on some of the epic, long and ridiculously steep routes in caves in Spain and elsewhere, different rules apply. If there aren’t any access issues and the locals o.k it then there shouldn’t be a problem. On some of those routes, it can literally take a day just to get the clips in a route. Imagine trying to equip this:
Bernabe Fernandez en El duende: 9a de 90m(3ªParte) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaqxLYXriq8&playnext=1&list=PL6B670E9B2D4A9A5A#ws)
But whilst it is currently common practice in lots of places abroad, it is also leading to quite a lot of problems and so is becoming much more of an issue all over the place:
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=37459 (http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=37459)
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?p=243536#p243536 (http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?p=243536#p243536)
But to be honest I’m pretty astonished by the attitude of some people to this (and other) stuff in the UK. There are only a very small number of great sport climbing cliffs in the UK. Access to them is not in any way guaranteed. One of the arguments for bolting in a number of places was to remove all the unslightly tatt etc as Norton said. Replacing this by in situ draws wasn’t part of the plan. These places aren’t climbing walls. The aim of the game should be to try to minimise impact in every way possible. And if people did this, then perhaps it would be a lot easier to make the case for sport climbing in other appropriate places.
So maybe it’s time people stopped being so “British” about some of these things. Next time someone shows up at the base of the Directissima, having just parked blocking the road, how about everyone turns round in unison and sceams “MOVE YOUR F*CKING CAR”. And if people leave their draws at the Cornice, how about removing them and taking them to Outside where the person can retrieve them later. If this happened a few times, I think this kind of stuff would stop pretty quickly. Peer pressure is more likely to be effective than polite notices in obscure threads on the internet.
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jeapordise access in some places / look ugly to non climbers
agree that if there is an obvious access issue or negative comments then the practice should be lessened. But i would imagine draws left in routes is probably a pretty small negative aspect to the non climbing detractors. The vast amount of negative associations probably come with all other climbing related aspects which negate the draws issue.
They aren’t long enough or steep enough for it to be a major faff equipping them.
Thats a bit of a sweeping statement which isn't true for several routes i can think of.
It’s also a pain for other climbers as Paul B said at the start – lots of people don’t want to climb a route on someone else’s draws, when they don’t know their history etc – especially if they’ve been in situ for a long time.
I think this argument has as much for as against. Seen many situations whereby a set of draws makes the route more attractive to wads looking for a quick onsight or others wanting to "have a go" with the ability to bail significantly easier (if they cannot do a move etc).
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers
Tim
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They aren’t long enough or steep enough for it to be a major faff equipping them.
There's a few that are long though.. Genuine question - are there any known issues with leaving draws in at Malham? I'd like to try Totally Free 2 this year but if I have to take all the draws out of a 70m route each day then screw that.
It’s also a pain for other climbers
Really? I love equiped routes, as do the people I climb with. I'm more likely to get on onsights near my limit when the draws are in, and more likely to play on harder routes.
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Yeah, I can see it being a pain on the odd route like Totally Free 2. Clearly if you’re trying something like this one day and planning on going back the next I can’t see anyone getting too upset - especially if you strip Something Stupid (don’t know of any specific complaints about draws at Malham). I just don’t think it should become widespread practice as seems to be starting to happen. And definitely not in places where there is clearly access problems like Cheedale.
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Having read through this thread I have to say that I am bemused by folk defending their leaving of draws in. I think I have ever only done this once, at LPT as I wanted a quick redpoint the next morning, so I was being a little lazy (oooh get me). To me part of a sport climbing session is stripping your draws at the end just as it is putting them in in the first place.
As has already been said, stick clips make it piss to put the draws back in and it's a good way of warming up these days. Even mega steep routes aren't really that hard to strip, just a little more effort then simply being lowered. What's all the fuss?
As for trying to defend leaving them in where access can be sensitive I am amazed. It's lazy, selfish and a little arrogant in my completely humble opinion..
Obviously there are exceptions as Doylo said like the Diamond and LPT where only climbers will see'em but even here it's rare to see any draws left in routes and never upstairs. God we're so righteous over here :2thumbsup:
Basically a good rule of thumb might be that if Joe Public can see'em and/or there's an access problem then they should be taken out. Simples. I really don't see the hardship in having to strip'em, whatever the grade or angle. :shrug:
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There's a few that are long though.. Genuine question - are there any known issues with leaving draws in at Malham?
Yes, at a meeting some time ago that was one of the issues the YDP flagged, they didn't bolts because they were visually unobtrusive, but tat and in-situ gear was an issue.
Basically a good rule of thumb might be that if Joe Public can see'em and/or there's an access problem then they should be taken out. Simples. I really don't see the hardship in having to strip'em, whatever the grade or angle. :shrug:
:agree: ...apart from the grade or angle bit - The Thumb at Kilnsey being an example.
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Oh fuck it, it's been at least a week since I upset someone on here and it's Friday afternoon, so...
Over the years there have been many conflicts with landowners in Yorkshire over access to crags - Kilnsey, Blue and Yew all spring to mind. The same applies to many other areas of the country. Part of the issue was, and undoubtedly still is, the unsightly tat, ropes and even pots and pans that used to be left on crags before we had so many bolts. A proliferation of leaving gear in place is essentially a return to those days.
Landowners, walkers and passers by in general don't like to see a whole load of fixed gear on crags. We are lucky enough to have access to and be able to bolt these places. Is it really so hard to respect the actual or potential wishes of others and remove gear after your day on the crag if it then avoids conflict and maintains access? There really is no excuse these days when it's so easy to get the kit back in. And if you've got one of those silly little Beta sticks go to Decathlon and buy a 6m Roach pole instead - you only need to clip every third bolt!
Take your crap out of the routes and take the rest of your crap (finger tape, bog roll etc) home with you at the same time. It doesn't matter what crag you're on the same principle of leaving it in as pristine condition as possible should surely apply?
Have a good weekend stick clipping...
this will never happen again....
:agree:
as for the starting point of this being K3... FFS it's piss to dog!!
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And we've all seen Spirited Away, so know not to mess with an upset spirit.
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From memory so please excuse any errors.
Draws in at Kilnsey on Saturday morning 2nd of June...
Indian Summer
The Ashes
All out
Ecstasy
Quiet Flight 7a!!!!!
Zero Option
Progress
True North
Urgent Action
Grooved Arete
La Connection
End of the day and a couple of walkers stroll up the path to have a look. Their entirely amicable first comment "There is a helluva a lot of fixed gear up there".
You bet there is.
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Crag swag Ed!
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From memory so please excuse any errors.
Draws in at Kilnsey on Saturday morning 2nd of June...
Ecstasy
End of the day and a couple of walkers stroll up the path to have a look. Their entirely amicable first comment "There is a helluva a lot of fixed gear up there".
You bet there is.
All other issues aside, those draws in Ecstasy have been put in with fixed Maillon's too.... not good form seen as the route gets and stays wet for so long and they weren't even new in the first place!! I'd suggest anyone on it any time soon strips them.....
That does sound like a ridiculous number of routes equipped. Maybe time to for a cease fire?
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From memory so please excuse any errors.
Draws in at Kilnsey on Saturday morning 2nd of June...
Ecstasy
End of the day and a couple of walkers stroll up the path to have a look. Their entirely amicable first comment "There is a helluva a lot of fixed gear up there".
You bet there is.
All other issues aside, those draws in Ecstasy have been put in with fixed Maillon's too.... not good form seen as the route gets and stays wet for so long and they weren't even new in the first place!! I'd suggest anyone on it any time soon strips them.....
That does sound like a ridiculous number of routes equipped. Maybe time to for a cease fire?
And the ones on Urgent low down? The one that has been in for years high up? All maillons. No one seemed to complain about that one when stripping the thumb/Urgent. Not saying one way or another here if its right or wrong. Just throwing in some factual info.
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From memory so please excuse any errors.
Draws in at Kilnsey on Saturday morning 2nd of June...
End of the day and a couple of walkers stroll up the path to have a look. Their entirely amicable first comment "There is a helluva a lot of fixed gear up there".
You bet there is.
That does sound like a ridiculous number of routes equipped. Maybe time to for a cease fire?
And the ones on Urgent low down? The one that has been in for years high up? All maillons. No one seemed to complain about that one when stripping the thumb/Urgent. Not saying one way or another here if its right or wrong. Just throwing in some factual info.
Again, I am not making an excuse here, or saying anything is wrong or right; but ... did those walkers turn round and take a look at the number of in situ rotting tractors / JCBs / cars across the road, and pass any comment about that?
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Malham, Kilnsey and Goredale are iconic landmarks in the middle of a national park which people travel from far and wide to see, photograph and even paint. Dead tractors in a field aren’t.
JB was right – people visiting crags like this see a bunch of climbers climbing and tend to go “Ooohh, how exciting”. The same people at the same places when there are no climbers around but there are loads of in situ clips tend to go “Ooohh, what a mess climbers leave behind after them”. They don’t get the fact that you’re going back. Or that draws are easy to remove. They just see a bunch of junk left behind by people after they’ve climbed something.
View it from the perspective of a photographer travelling a long distance to shoot pictures of Malham at dawn. If you’d got up a 3 a.m to do this how’d you feel if the crag looked like a Petzl sponsored Christmas tree.
As for fixed maillons… :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
And for those who haven’t seen it yet, this is the kind of thing to expect more widely if things continue as they have been:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18204.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18204.0.html)
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I'm a climber - not a landowner, walker or passer by and I find permadraws visually offensive.
I do wish people would start thinking from within and for our community - far too much selfishness doing the rounds at the moment.
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Gooood point Uptoon!
I try not to loose any sweat over it personally like, I'd rather save my energy for litter picking.
But on the selfishnessfish vibe, there's far toooo many slippery characters about these days, thinking nothing of an absent minded moment to drop their disposables hither and thither .... all part and parcel (wrapping aside) of our throw away culture ...
... I know where i'd like to throw alot of it ... parp, parp ....
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Wonder if this guy is reading and planning a visit;
Picnic Lunch Wall Draw Thief (http://vimeo.com/18267416)
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I'm a climber - not a landowner, walker or passer by and I find permadraws visually offensive.
I do wish people would start thinking from within and for our community - far too much selfishness doing the rounds at the moment.
:agree:
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Perma-draw apologists should consider how they would view other outdoor sports folk doing similar things e.g. off roaders leaving spare tyres dotted along Stanage Causeway/fell runners pre-placing bottled water in plain sight all over national parks.
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:agree:
same as DH runs in wharncliffe, cave dale, the causeway being race taped.....which i have removed.
lets face it, just take it home...
i dont do routes at the moment much... but at the risk of being an old fart... stop jeopardising the permission to climb for what is basically no big effort to get the clips in at the beginning of the day
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Ah the usual fuckin UKB affected righteous indignation! what a load of :shit: Perhaps one of those fretting about in situ draws might take the time to remove the biners from Monumental, Roof Warrior, R&P, Jug Jockey etc. etc. I mean, you can always toprope them to get the clips back, or thread the bolts if they're staples. Fuckin hell there are train tunnels running through Chee Dale. We are talking a bit of tat on a rock. Rocks - people make houses and train tunnels out of them.
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the problem is three of nine if something is going to benefit public they seem to accept the destruction of the countryside but they see in situ draws and kick up a fuss which will make it so we cant climb in certain areas so its just easier to make that extra bit of effort to get your draws back out so we can all climb for a long time to come
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Some of those Cheedale Cornice routes, like Cry of Despair for example, had a single biner on for years to clip into as you lowered off to strip the gear, hence avoiding a massive swing out and impaling yourself on a tree (now cut down).
I don't see a problem with this, after all most belays have more than that on them. But face it, leaving a crag festooned with quick draws is just lazy and selfish.
The first I can remember seeing of this in the peak were Jerry's draws in what became Evolution - I guess he couldn't he aid the bolt ladder so had to free it to get his draws back? The guys a legend, but just because it's an 8c or a project is still no excuse.
Would I do the same on a route at my limit? No.
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Ah, the usual ukb affected righteous indignation! what a load of :shit: The biners in monumental, roof warrior, r&p, jug jockey etc etc are just as unsightly as in situ draws, but nobody is going to take them out because its a pain in the arse. There's little difference from an access point of view.
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Fuckin hell there are train tunnels running through Chee Dale. We are talking a bit of tat on a rock. Rocks - people make houses and train tunnels out of them.
To be honest thats cr*p - the same argument could be used for leaving your all your litter at the bottom of the crag. Nobody is saying that the peak / dales are wilderness areas but there a big difference between the infrastructure of the community and general rubbish and litter. The question is whether leaving draws in contributes to a general feeling of littering the crags.
To be honest I never felt that strongly about the odd route with the draws left in but if thats now moving towards a more general trend I would definitely prefer to see it stopped both from a personal asthetic positon and from the perspective of the more general impression the climbing community gives.
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Ah, the usual ukb affected righteous indignation! what a load of :shit: The biners in monumental, roof warrior, r&p, jug jockey etc etc are just as unsightly as in situ draws, but nobody is going to take them out because its a pain in the arse. There's little difference from an access point of view.
So you think to the non climbing passerby a single biner on a few routes is just as unsightly as every route dripping with quickdraws?
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You can't educate pork.
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The question is whether leaving draws in contributes to a general feeling of littering the crags.
To be honest I never felt that strongly about the odd route with the draws left in but if thats now moving towards a more general trend I would definitely prefer to see it stopped both from a personal asthetic positon and from the perspective of the more general impression the climbing community gives.
This sounds like a pretty balanced, sensible view Ian; i think i pretty much agree. I sometimes leave draws (though not often) and use ones left by others (which is ethically the same thing isn't it really?) In the past, it hasn't bothered me in the least except in the odd case where you get a rotting draw blocking a bolt, which you would like to clip with a decent draw on an onsight, and can't.
If in situ draws pose a genuine concern to others, and impact on issues of access, of course we should all back down and take them out. I just slightly feel that everyone is getting a bit overexcited about how much other user groups are bothered by, or indeed notice, them.
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I just slightly feel that everyone is getting a bit overexcited about how much other user groups are bothered by, or indeed notice, them.
For real! Jasper - what the fuck?
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ps. neutral karma!! :dance1: and nice to be wadded by my good chum Dylan :-*
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I have been reading this thread with a fair amount of interest as I do quite a bit of sport climbing at most of the venues mentioned (although mostly Kilnsey).
My view (based on only my own opinion!) is that for crags such as Malham and Cheedale where the landowners/managers have stated that they don't like draws being left in place then obviously people (e.g. me) shouldn't leave them in place when working a project. Thus access is preserved and good relations with the landowner etc... maintained.
At other crags where this isn't the case with the land owner/manager then I think the issue isn't so cut and dried. My view is very similar to that of IanP and TobyD. At a crag such as Kilnsey where most people (the vast majority) walking underneath the crag are climbers I don't see an issue with leaving draws in place. Most non-climbers who look at Kilnsey do so from the road and are hardly likely to see the draws in place. I had a good look the other day from down the road and from the layby underneath the crag and to be honest I couldn't actually see any fixed gear. Yes you can see it from directly underneath the crag but I still don't find it visually offensive or consider it litter. Obviously if the landowner/manager has a problem or someone can give a clear example of access at kilnsey specifically being endangered by draws on routes such as Urgent Action or True North then I am all for the draws coming down.
Personally I tend only rarely to leave draws in place but this simply because I am worried that someone will nick them. I have recently left some draws in Ecstasy (I just left a load of mine as extenders on the ones already in place), I also left some at the top of Bullitt. I did this simply to make my own life easier the next time I went up the routes in question. Obviously i could have stripped them at the end of my session but as long as access is not being endangered I don't see a problem here. The other day i went on Urgent Action and I was glad to have the draws in place, mainly because it saved me carrying any and also meant that I could bail at any stage and not worry about retrieving them.
As we (well actually me!) are on the subject of access at kilnsey in my opinion by far the biggest issue is parking. People parking underneath the crag in that layby undoubtedly cause the local residents and farmer much more hassle than a few fixed draws. This despite a sign clearly saying do not park here!
Anyway all the above is simply my opinion and was just a way of me avoiding heading back out to the yard to carry on digging and patioing!
Dave
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Personally I find single in-situ biners uglier, and more like rubbish, than a line of draws; especially if the draws are all nice and matching and the single krab is like the horrible ugly one on RnP at the moment. There were 2 krabs in monumental, plus single ones in jug jockey, roof warrior, 42, R'n'P, Snatch plus 2 in LATB yesterday. I don't even know why the one in Snatch was there since it was on the headwall section which goes in a straight line up a vertical wall...
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ps. neutral karma!! :dance1: and nice to be wadded by my good chum Dylan :-*
No I did that by mistake. I still think your're an idiot. For the record I've been vocal about removing the draws from Mecca. I'm more than happy to put draws in from the ground up. I'm out of the country at the moment but will be happy to take a spanner down the Tor as soon as I get back. The last time they were removed (by Ted I think), Paul Reeve and Keith Sharples made a song and dance about putting them back in (I could be wrong about that but they did go back in)
edit: you're not your
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I did this simply to make my own life easier the next time I went up the routes in question. Obviously i could have stripped them at the end of my session but as long as access is not being endangered I don't see a problem here. The other day i went on Urgent Action and I was glad to have the draws in place, mainly because it saved me carrying any and also meant that I could bail at any stage and not worry about retrieving them.
This thread is going nowhere, but I thought I would highlight that.
I'm lost for words.
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Perma-draws were not deemed necessary on these routes 5-10 years ago. What's changed?
I've done a fair number of the routes mentioned at Kilnsey and don't recall putting the draws in or the removal at the end of the session being a game changer in any way. It's just laziness. Ok it makes flashing/onsighting harder - tough, that's how it alway has been, it is not sufficient justification for the practice.
TBH the issue didn't bother me when it was the odd route here and there but it now sounds like things are getting silly and we are as well outlawing the practice BEFORE we have access problems, rather than waiting for them to happen.
The point of having single biners on routes is to leave the minimum kit insitu to allow routes to be safely and practically stripped. They are the much lesser of two evils. It is beyond me how anyone can say that one krab is more of an eyesore than 10-20 krabs attached to brightly coloured fabric and dangling in space! Yes some, such as the green one on Snatch are unsightly and I agree ought to go.
From a selfish climber point of view it's worth considering that ultimately if we push the perma-draw thing to the point where we are forced to negotiate access on sensitive crags, then we might be put in a position where we have to do without these single biners, which would actually be a major ballache.
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As an access rep, I think this thread has been really encouraging. Generally, folk are in favour of self-policing - that's great. Those that previously didn't give the issue a second thought will now be aware there is more at stake. With any issue like this, its not about forcing 100% compliance on people, its about getting awareness up. The odd route having a few draws in over the odd night isn't going to cause big problems at most crags. Routes becoming routinely fully equipped is. That's all, be sensible about it.
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Digging up the yard has lost its appeal again so...
TB: I don't understand your point. I make no claims to be a saint, just a fairly regular sport climber who is at times lazy and does appreciate draws in routes for that reason. If at any stage I heard a good reason that draws threatened access at any crag where I left draws (pretty much only Kilnsey) then I would stop immediately.
Bonjoy: I don't believe the draws are necessary, I just appreciate them. I think there is a difference there, it may be subtle but there is a difference. I am more than happy to stick my own draws in and strip them at the end of the day. In fact like most people this is exactly what I do most of the time. It is just that i don't see that there is a huge problem with the draws in Urgent Action and True North at the moment. I haven't heard any reason why they might endanger access at kilnsey (I am being specific here.). I really don't think things are out of hand at Kilnsey and haven't spoken top anyone at the crag this year who thinks it is (and I do speak to most people) admittedly i have hardly been canvassing opinions with a formal questionnaire!
To be clear I am only talking about crags where access is not an issue and as I have said earlier the landowner/manager has not stated that they don't want clips left in. This is obviously the case at Cheedale and Malham and therefore we need to respect their wishes.
Again in my opinion the biggest issue is parking...
Dylan: Unfortunately I have had to punter you back for puntering me... I thought it was okay to have different opinions on the forum and express them reasonably without getting puntered. I haven't said that I think anyone is an idiot for holding a different view to me and if someone (e.g. you) can give me a clear reason as to why draws left in Urgent Action or True North endanger access at kilnsey then I am more than happy to change my mind.
Okay back to digging up the yard...
Dave
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Dylan: Unfortunately I have had to punter you back for puntering me... I thought it was okay to have different opinions on the forum and express them reasonably without getting puntered. I haven't said that I think anyone is an idiot for holding a different view to me and if someone (e.g. you) can give me a clear reason as to why draws left in Urgent Action or True North endanger access at kilnsey then I am more than happy to change my mind.
Okay back to digging up the yard...
Dave
I puntered you for not realising that your attitude was lazy, not for having a differing opinion. Does that stick clip of yours not get close enough to the bolts? What good reason is there for turning a crag into an indoor wall for the sake of your onsight or bone idleness? Even if there wasn't access issues would it not be better to leave as little trace as possible when we use outdoor resources? Do we not try to brush chalk off holds and pick up other peoples rubbish? Obviously there are times when krabs get left in but should this not be the exception rather than the rule?
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Its called irony Dylan. You're an idiot.
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For the record y'all, I really like it when clips are in stuff. It bothers me not a whit if there's a shit ton of draws in crags where its not pissing off the landowners. I dont find it unsightly. What's wrong with the draws in Mecca?
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Hmmm....
Dylan: I agree with all the stuff about trying to take all of our stuff home with us and picking up people's rubbish etc..., I try to rub of chalk/tick marks... I think if you read my message again it is quite evident that I know I am being lazy, I just haven't seen that it endangers access at Kilnsey...
If it did then I would have a problem with draws left in place there and you still haven't given a clear reason as to why it might. I am being specific to Kilnsey here as I really don't climb in the peak enough to have an opinion.
I am aware that there is a contradiction to my wanting to leave as little trace as possible yet being happy to see draws left in place. Still we all use chalk and are happy to drill bolts into the rock, so there you go...
Anyway, I have decided to take the high road and not punter you back for yet again puntering me!! Ooh get me, I feel all righteous!
On another note I may be down at Cheedale on Saturday and if your draws happened to be in PowerPlant I would not be unhappy (as long as you strip them at the end of the day)!
Dave
Actually, just looked at weather forecast and it now looks unlikely I shall be heading down to the Cornice, doh!
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Jasper - what the fuck?
I was implying that you are too stupid to understand the argument and that (because of that) there's little or no point in people trying to reason with you. You're doing a really good job of proving my point. How ironic (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/jun/28/weekend7.weekend2)?
It's just a shame you wont take a minute to actually read the sensible things people like bonjoy and JB are saying instead of taking offence, chucking insults about and tit for tat puntering people. Which isn't really very helpful.
Seems everyone else on this thread is at least willing to attempt to be constructive and listen to one another's points of view.
Or in other words "you can't educate pork". :)
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I'm neither stupid, nor uneducated (do you really want to take it there?). I am possibly (most would say certainly) a twat, and perhaps I shouldn't rise to Dylan's persistent unpleasentness. Nonetheless, and I appreciate you may find this difficult to understand, I have a different point of view from you.
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I just haven't seen that it endangers access at Kilnsey...If it did then I would have a problem with draws left in place there
I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.
Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.
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I have a different point of view from you.
Yes, clearly you do, but the point of a discussion is to listen to and at least try and understand others points of view* which, despite your allusions to being educated (and lets not start willy waving as its futile), you seem to be failing to do.
Trying to equate the early forceful placement of a railway track between Buxton and Bakewell (in an era when people didn't even consider rock climbing, after all the track was built in the early to mid 1800's, check the date of Haskett-Smiths ascent of Napes Needle, let alone the value of nature!) and the legacy that we are now left with has absolutely no bearing on the issue of whether draws should be left in routes in an area that is now privately owned and an SSSI (Site of Special Scientific Interest).
* Caveat - Something I endeavor to do but may not always succeed at.
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I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.
Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.
:agree: I was writing the same thing until I saw your post.
Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted? :shrug:
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I did this simply to make my own life easier the next time I went up the routes in question. Obviously i could have stripped them at the end of my session but as long as access is not being endangered I don't see a problem here. The other day i went on Urgent Action and I was glad to have the draws in place, mainly because it saved me carrying any and also meant that I could bail at any stage and not worry about retrieving them.
This thread is going nowhere, but I thought I would highlight that.
I'm lost for words.
:agree:
I'm not sure its possible to talk about this anymore, :-\ I'll amend that..... it is possible, but we will continue to go round in circles bleating on ad infinitum :wall:
We all just need to walk away & do the right thing. That is give serious thought to leaving any in situ gear on routes.
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Slackline (keeping this as non-eristic as possible) I was being flippant about Chee Dale, but the issue is broader than Cheedale and other crags with specific access issues in the UK. I dont think its especially lazy to leave draws in at crags, generally speaking. Some people share this point of view. Dylan's contention that this turns a crag into an outdoor climbing wall could very well be extended to bolted crags in general.
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Rich K - you are of course right, but some of us are bored at work and have nothing better than to debate (if that's the right word) on internet forums.
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I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.
Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.
:yes: I agree. The fact that this is being discussed on a public forum probably means it has got out of hand, and is in danger of risking access sooner than people realise, even at crags like Kilnsey where there are no perceived access problems (parking aside). Why open a :worms: that we can potentially keep tightly shut?
Most people from time to time will leave draws in if they are intending on visiting again soon, I am no exception, and essentially it is born from convenience (lazy if you want to be cynical). Regardless of your opinion of whether they are unsightly or not, it is the views of landowners, the NP and other users which matter and if leaving draws in may risk creating an access issue then surely its worth removing them?
This thread shouldn't be about canvassing opinion of whats insightly and what is not, and at present it isn't achieving anything, other than stirring ill feeling between people. I think everyone is in agreement that the most important thing is maintaining access, therefore let common sense prevail and take your shit home. I for one would much rather bust a gut stripping my draws after every visit than risk losing the opportunity all together.
(I stripped the old draws from Mandela last year, which were then tested to destruction at Wild Country, I suspect that if anyone saw what the seemingly new looking (been up there 2years?) Dyneeema and Nylon tapes broke at they would think again before ever clipping an insitu draw.....)
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Flippancy doesn't engender understanding, particularly in the black & white setting of communicating via the internet where body language and intonation are lost.
This thread split from the Chee Dale conditions thread because there were draws left in routes at Cheedale (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18154.msg322138.html#msg322138). It quickly took a sharp tangent (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18154.msg322531.html#msg322531) towards wider issue of draws being left in routes anywhere. The two are being nicely muddled in the discussion.
Perhaps this fork needs forking again into one that deals with the specific issues pertaining to Cheedale (and I get the impression that there are very few who think leaving draws in areas where there are already access issues is permissible, no matter how much of an inconvenience it might be) and a separate one focused on the wider issue of the potentially negative impact leaving draws in routes might have.
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(I stripped the old draws from Mandela last year, which were then tested to destruction at Wild Country, I suspect that if anyone saw what the seemingly new looking (been up there 2years?) Dyneeema and Nylon tapes broke at they would think again before ever clipping an insitu draw.....)
... any specific info on this?
At what force did they break?
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(I stripped the old draws from Mandela last year, which were then tested to destruction at Wild Country, I suspect that if anyone saw what the seemingly new looking (been up there 2years?) Dyneeema and Nylon tapes broke at they would think again before ever clipping an insitu draw.....)
... any specific info on this?
At what force did they break?
One of the Petzl Sport tapes, probably the newest one up there, broke at about 1/4 of its rated strength from what I remember
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(I stripped the old draws from Mandela last year, which were then tested to destruction at Wild Country, I suspect that if anyone saw what the seemingly new looking (been up there 2years?) Dyneeema and Nylon tapes broke at they would think again before ever clipping an insitu draw.....)
I assume the tapes failed before the crabs? What kn did they go at out of interest.
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P.S. - Shouldn't this be in the get involved: access, environment, BMC (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/board,57.0.html) sub-forum?
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Messed up quotes, hope you still got that last post Dan.
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Messed up quotes, hope you still got that last post Dan.
See previous post. Not sure what they are rated at? Some of the crabs were unbelievable, a few winters of freeze and thaw, bright morning sunlight and constant wetness is not good. Hence my earlier comment regarding Ecstacy.
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Messed up quotes, hope you still got that last post Dan.
See previous post. Not sure what they are rated at? Some of the crabs were unbelievable, a few winters of freeze and thaw, bright morning sunlight and constant wetness is not good. Hence my earlier comment regarding Ecstacy.
A tape will be about 22kn rated. As i am sure you know, the rating will be way over what is actually needed. Maybe Adam Long will be along to share his knowledge on the matter. Adam?
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dear arborro, three nine and anyone else who thinks these two are right
as far as i can see this isn't really about whether we personally like draws in routes or not.
this is mainly about whether leaving draws in routes will lead to access issues in the future.
in my opinion we have strong evidence that it is an issue at nearly every crag in the uk.
whether we like draws in routes or not is pretty much irrelevant.
scenario a; we leave draws in routes we lose access
scenario b; we take them home along with everything else, we continue to climb at these rocks.
making value judgements about what constitutes the biggest eyesore a tunnel or a quickdraw is a load of bollocks as is having the opinion that quickdraws are prettier than single biners. this is pure subjectivity and blatantly an esoteric opinion that will be worth precisely fuck all when somebody (not you because you are blatantly too selfish to get involved in anything remotely useful to the wider climbing community) has to spend months negotiating access that we lost because you really really like leaving the clips in.
take your clips home or no more climbing
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Perma-draws were not deemed necessary on these routes 5-10 years ago. What's changed?
I've done a fair number of the routes mentioned at Kilnsey and don't recall putting the draws in or the removal at the end of the session being a game changer in any way. It's just laziness. Ok it makes flashing/onsighting harder - tough, that's how it alway has been, it is not sufficient justification for the practice.
TBH the issue didn't bother me when it was the odd route here and there but it now sounds like things are getting silly and we are as well outlawing the practice BEFORE we have access problems, rather than waiting for them to happen.
The point of having single biners on routes is to leave the minimum kit insitu to allow routes to be safely and practically stripped. They are the much lesser of two evils. It is beyond me how anyone can say that one krab is more of an eyesore than 10-20 krabs attached to brightly coloured fabric and dangling in space! Yes some, such as the green one on Snatch are unsightly and I agree ought to go.
From a selfish climber point of view it's worth considering that ultimately if we push the perma-draw thing to the point where we are forced to negotiate access on sensitive crags, then we might be put in a position where we have to do without these single biners, which would actually be a major ballache.
bang on mate.
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I don't know why you're quite so angry at me Ben.
I only started arguing at the start of this thread because Dave said we shouldn't be leaving draws in routes anywhere. I disagree with this, I don't see how it causes issues at a lot of crags that I've spent a lot of time climbing at. Maybe I was being retarded reading "anywhere" as "anywhere" rather than "anywhere in the UK", but I hope you'll forgive me that stupidity as I've only just got back from 9 months in Spain and France, so when I think sport climbing I think of Santa Linya as much as I think of the tor. I suspect leaving draws in is unlikely to cause access issues at the likes of Ceuse or Montsant, say. Or LPT/WCJ cornice if you want a UK example. I probably should have been less aggressive in my post though: sorry for calling your view retarded Dave. Though for the record I still think that the view that we shouldn't leave draws in anywhere is retarded.
My giving a list of reasons for leaving them in was because someone asked why you'd want to leave them in, not an attempt to justify leaving them in down the likes of Chee Dale.
Thanks for dissing my opinion that a line of draws is prettier than a single biner, but I still find a line of draws prettier, especially if they're matching. Maybe it's my autistic side that likes a line of them rather than a single one, but I really do think it looks nicer. If it's a minority view that's fine, just thought I'd point out that some (or at least one) find the single biners which do seem to be acceptable just as ugly as equipped routes. (Just to clarify: are the single biners acceptable at the cornice, or should I be taking them out if I do one of the routes with one on?)
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Thanks for dissing my opinion that a line of draws is prettier than a single biner, but I still find a line of draws prettier, especially if they're matching. Maybe it's my autistic side that likes a line of them rather than a single one, but I really do think it looks nicer. If it's a minority view that's fine, just thought I'd point out that some (or at least one) find the single biners which do seem to be acceptable just as ugly as equipped routes. (Just to clarify: are the single biners acceptable at the cornice, or should I be taking them out if I do one of the routes with one on?)
Regardless, that is still a climbers view which is not what causes access problems, because its non-climbers who find the presence of single karabiners and/or a line of draws to be obtrusive. So single karabiners should be removed as readily as draws.
Taking such reasoning to its logical conclusion would obviously mean that there shouldn't be any bolts to clip in the first place, but clearly thats undesirable to a the climbing community, so.....
...a compromise might be that bolts are permissible as they tend to be small and of similar colour/shade to the rock unless the sun is shining on them and the person observing is at the right angle to catch the glint, but draws should not be left in as they tend to be coloured and stand out far more, particularly so to non-climbers who might not have the eye to spot a line of bolts.
I don't project/work routes, but most of the sports routes have pretty easy access compared to walking in to say winter climbs or mountain/sea-cliff crags, so to my mind those using the "convenience" argument are just plain lazy (if its awkward to clip-stick a route then perhaps the placement of bolts was off in the first place?).
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A tape will be about 22kn rated. As i am sure you know, the rating will be way over what is actually needed. Maybe Adam Long will be along to share his knowledge on the matter. Adam?
If you read the statistical testing methodology that DMM use to come up with their ratings (sigma 3 or something like that) it'll be evident that the 'rating' will be well below what its actually capable of holding straight out of the factory thus breaking at 4 times less than 'rated' will likely be a much more consierable drop in strength than it appears. Not particularly good news for anything not looking at its best!
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Destruction tested a 'draw of mine on the mobile DMM rig a couple of months ago.
Sling (Petzl 8 years old) looks as new, originally rated 22KN. went at 14KN. 1KN loss per year.......(never been left on route)
DMM shield krab, bolt end, rated at 24KN went at 29.6KN. 8 years old and still much stronger than rated.
Will be replacing slings first, I reckon.
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What Paul said. The 3 sigma thing means the rated strength is 3 standard deviations below the average (mean) strength, ie that 99.9% (I think?) of a sample will break at more than the rated which is in effect a minimum strength. Though I'm not sure manufacturers' sample sizes are always big enough to justify the statistics...
As a very broad rule of thumb, I'd say you're unlikely to break climbing gear unless its strength drops below 10kN. Webbing is generally the fastest to deteriorate in use, as the construction means all fibres get exposed to the surface at some point. You can halve the strength of a sling in about 3 seconds just with the sandpaper on a matchbox.
For sport climbing, in-situ draws are always likely to be the weakest link in your safety chain. I know Mawson broke one recently in Europe. I wouldn't say its a strong argument to ban them, but it might present more of a problem where only the odd route has perma-draws and no one is really sure who is responsible for them.
Presumably at fully equipped crags in Europe some individual or club is responsible for checking them as with the bolts. The only such crag I've been to (in Italy) was so maintained by an individual who'd also taken the kind step of drilling every handhold and sikaing every foothold, mostly to suit his frame as closely as possible. I might be generalising a bit here, but the moral I took from there was that allowing perma-draws is a slippery slope that first creates a 'climbing wall atmosphere', which in turn inevitably becomes a licence for wholesale chipping.
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ie that 99.9% (I think?) of a sample will break at more than the rated which is in effect a minimum strength.
As good as 3σ == 99.7300204% of a normal distribution.
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ie that 99.9% (I think?) of a sample will break at more than the rated which is in effect a minimum strength.
As good as 3σ == 99.7300204% of a normal distribution.
correct although in the case of climbing equipment you are not worried about the % that is not included in the 3 standard deviations and is at the top end of the distribution graph as these will be the extra strong ones... so looking at what is included and is above (mean - 3 st deviations) you get something like 99.98...%
I seem to remember that in practice the 3 sigma stuff is done using a T distribution (or something) rather than a standard distribution as this takes into account the sample size used (rather than snapping every biner!)
The variation on snapped (new) biners from DMM is normally pretty small so in reality biners will (generally) be stronger than rated but not by that much. From using the mobile test rig for DMM for a few years I have not had many biners (even old ones people have brought in) snap at less than rated, as Adam says slings are often the weak point, particually if rubbed across their width with some sandpaper (worse than a part cut with a knife) which makes them a lot weaker - potentially very similar to a permadraw continually rubbing back and forth over the rock! **
**This is not an official DMM view, and I could be completely wrong. All my statistics were done at uni so could easily be complete bollocks.
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Isn't just a fashion thing? Loads of British sport climbers travel to super steep, super long sport crags in France and Spain where it is a logistical nightmare to strip your route at the end of every day you spend on it, so the locals draws get left in until they're done.
Its been a good few months since I tied on to a rope, but I feel I've done enough sport climbing in the past to have an opinion..... I can't think of many 70+metre wildly overhanging sport pitches in the UK that would warrant leaving draws in-situ. In fact, I can't think of many routes in the UK of any size, difficulty, steepness or style that really need the draws leaving in. I can see Ste Mac's rationale for leaving a few in his super-routes at Malham whilst he's on with working them, but surely leaving draws in most other routes is just laziness, or people thinking that because it happens in Catalunya, its alright to do it down the dale.... As somebody already mentioned, draws left in routes on a large scale in the UK is a relatively new deal, isn't it? Yet we have now have clever stick clippy things so even if you can't bolt to bolt your chosen route, you can still get your draws in and a top-rope on the thing.
Thinking about it, it probably is a laziness issue, when you look at crags in the States with proper chain perma-draws - these are the people you invented the drive-thru cash point, after all.....
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i these are the people you invented the drive-thru cash point, after all.....
... and the drive thru liquor sto'....
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I just haven't seen that it endangers access at Kilnsey...If it did then I would have a problem with draws left in place there
I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.
Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.
Rodma: As I have said many times in I my posts I am only looking for one concrete reason that leaving draws in on North Buttress endangers access and then I am willing to change my opinion. Perhaps instead of describing how unhealthy my opinion is, you shoud come up with a concrete reason that it causes a problem at Kilnsey!
I assume from your post that you climb regularly at Kilnsey and are aware of current access issues concerning draws left in at North Buttress...
As I have said above I understand that at crags where the landowner/manager has stated that they don't like draws being left in then, obviously we should strip the draws as otherwise this would endanger access...
Dave
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I don't know about the access at other crags, but I do know that Raven Tor is owned by the National Trust and they regularly inspect the crag. I also know, having asked them during one such visit, that they neither understand nor like fixed gear and when asked which fixed gear they were referring to it was the situ draws on Mecca. They'd noticed other odds and sods, but the person I spoke to acknowledged that the bolts and odd crab were difficult to see unless you were looking for them.
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I just haven't seen that it endangers access at Kilnsey...If it did then I would have a problem with draws left in place there
I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.
Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.
Rodma: As I have said many times in I my posts I am only looking for one concrete reason that leaving draws in on North Buttress endangers access and then I am willing to change my opinion. Perhaps instead of describing how unhealthy my opinion is, you shoud come up with a concrete reason that it causes a problem at Kilnsey!
I assume from your post that you climb regularly at Kilnsey and are aware of current access issues concerning draws left in at North Buttress...
As I have said above I understand that at crags where the landowner/manager has stated that they don't like draws being left in then, obviously we should strip the draws as otherwise this would endanger access...
Dave
Davo, sorry if this is getting a little tit for tat but perhaps you should come up with a concrete reason why you or anyone else need to leave your draws in Kilsney when it seems obvious the default ethic has always been to strip routes. We've got bolts, clip sticks and lower offs, shirely that's convenient enough? :shrug:
It seems to me that if there's an issue with parking by climbers this could easily overspill into other issues like crag 'litter' left by climbers; basically we should all be doing whatever we can not to draw any more attention to any potentially negative impact we as climbers may have.
It's completely behavioral, and it seems from this thread and from what I've seen myself to be endemic to the Peak and Yorkshire. You lazy cunts. :P
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dear arborro, three nine and anyone else who thinks these two are right
as far as i can see this isn't really about whether we personally like draws in routes or not.
this is mainly about whether leaving draws in routes will lead to access issues in the future.
in my opinion we have strong evidence that it is an issue at nearly every crag in the uk.
whether we like draws in routes or not is pretty much irrelevant.
scenario a; we leave draws in routes we lose access
scenario b; we take them home along with everything else, we continue to climb at these rocks.
making value judgements about what constitutes the biggest eyesore a tunnel or a quickdraw is a load of bollocks as is having the opinion that quickdraws are prettier than single biners. this is pure subjectivity and blatantly an esoteric opinion that will be worth precisely fuck all when somebody (not you because you are blatantly too selfish to get involved in anything remotely useful to the wider climbing community) has to spend months negotiating access that we lost because you really really like leaving the clips in.
take your clips home or no more climbing
holy crap is there sand in your vagina?
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Just catching up on this debate as I've been away from ukb. Tying on for the first time in two years actually.
I actually don't have a strong opinion really as I'm a confirmed boulderer trying to broaden his horizons. Access has to be the overriding factor really though. Whether you think the balance is right between balancing our views against people who watch birds for a laugh or not, it's the most important thing pragmatically.
What I do have an opinion on is this karma bollocks. Just reading through the debate... and looking at what's happened to those people flying in the face of the popular opinion... my my they do get an ass raping. Can we please stop puntering people because they disagree with you, and stick to puntering them if they are a true wanker?
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Whether you think the balance is right between balancing our views against people who watch birds for a laugh or not, it's the most important thing pragmatically.
:agree:
Indeed. I don't in any way think it is wrong or unethical in a climbing sense to leave clips in, BUT if they are going to offend / annoy anyone else, then clearly, there is no justiifable arguement for leaving them. If we all play nicely I'm sure we can all enjoy national parks etc, whether you want to climb rocks, take / paint pictures of them or look at birds.
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the situ draws on Mecca.
these all seem to have been replaced, interestingly there is a new biner on the 3rd (4th) but the old shonky tape! weird! do we really need these? (I do for my aid climbing, but I wouldn't be upset if they were taken out)
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and looking at what's happened to those people flying in the face of the popular opinion... my my they do get an ass raping.
some of us do enjoy a good ass raping :shag:
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the situ draws on Mecca.
these all seem to have been replaced, interestingly there is a new biner on the 3rd (4th) but the old shonky tape! weird! do we really need these? (I do for my aid climbing, but I wouldn't be upset if they were taken out)
I replaced these.
The 4th bolt has the old tape on it because I got the new gear from DMM and they had run out of 25cm tapes. The tape length is quite crucial on that bolt, and that particular tape wasn't in too bad condition, so I have just left it for now.
I replaced what I could because the existing gear was becoming unsafe - the existing tapes were faded, abraded and in some cases significantly torn (~1/4 tape width on the worst) and because the biners themselves had severe rope grooves (the worst was worn down to ~1/3 of the biner thickness) with sharp edges which were trashing my rope very quickly.
I had seen this debate, but I don't feel it's my place to decide whether the gear should be there or not. As far as I'm concerned if there is going to be fixed gear in the route it should at least be safe. Now it is.
p.s. I have kept all the old tapes/draws, so if anyone knows who they belonged to I can return them (or put them back if people are pissed off at the replacement) - I think they might be Steve Mac's?
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I have kept all the old tapes/draws, so if anyone knows who they belonged to I can return them
Be interesting to get DMM or Lyon to break them and see how strong they weren't.
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the situ draws on Mecca.
these all seem to have been replaced, interestingly there is a new biner on the 3rd (4th) but the old shonky tape! weird! do we really need these? (I do for my aid climbing, but I wouldn't be upset if they were taken out)
I replaced these.
The 4th bolt has the old tape on it because I got the new gear from DMM and they had run out of 25cm tapes. The tape length is quite crucial on that bolt, and that particular tape wasn't in too bad condition, so I have just left it for now.
I replaced what I could because the existing gear was becoming unsafe - the existing tapes were faded, abraded and in some cases significantly torn (~1/4 tape width on the worst) and because the biners themselves had severe rope grooves (the worst was worn down to ~1/3 of the biner thickness) with sharp edges which were trashing my rope very quickly.
I had seen this debate, but I don't feel it's my place to decide whether the gear should be there or not. As far as I'm concerned if there is going to be fixed gear in the route it should at least be safe. Now it is.
I think the above speaks for itself, how long before it ends up in the same state? I have never understood the fixed gear on Mecca when you can equip most of the route from the ground with a standard clip stick, and probably the whole of it if you borrow Stone's roach pole! It is purely laziness born from convenience.
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but if there isn't a real access issue then that in itself is no reason not to do something
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I'd be happy to arrange testing of the stuff people have removed. I've done this before with a quickdraw which Steve Mac gave me out of curiousity. I haven't got any photo's to hand of it, but the krab had a deep rope groove worn into it (about a 1/3 worn) and the tape was intact but rather furry. I'm pretty certain it was a Petzl Spirit with the classic tapered Petzl nylon tape draw.
Most people's attention would be drawn to the wear on the krab, but in fact with the gate closed, it still held 23kN. The main concern would be the effect of the reduced section and any edges on the rope, and I'd expect a reduced gate open strength.
The tape broke at 12kN, which although about half what it would be when new, is still much higher than what you'd generate in even a nasty hard fall. The trouble is, you could easily have one which doesn't look much worse but turns out to be much weaker, and that one just might break on you. I'd suggest that the ones to be most wary of are those closest to the deck (higher forces) and those where the rock isn't steep (more wear).
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but if there isn't a real access issue then that in itself is no reason not to do something
Even if you ignore this:
I don't know about the access at other crags, but I do know that Raven Tor is owned by the National Trust and they regularly inspect the crag. I also know, having asked them during one such visit, that they neither understand nor like fixed gear and when asked which fixed gear they were referring to it was the situ draws on Mecca.
and go down the line of "there isn't a problem until there's a problem" you're still yet to back this line of argument up by answering this:
Perma-draws were not deemed necessary on these routes 5-10 years ago. What's changed?
other than how Barrows succinctly put it himself.
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I'm not sure I follow you? At one time chalk, sticky rubber and stainless steel fixed gear were not considered necessary. But things do change, thank God.
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My general point (when not just winding people up) through all of this has been that people have different ideas about what is generally acceptable and that these ideas may develop over time. Where access is not an issue, I see no reason for a blanket proscription on leaving draws in, even if it seems lazy to you. Personally I find yorkshire top-roping/headpointing of sport routes and Shark-style dependence on clipsticks pretty distasteful, but I accept that these people have a different take on things.
Fuck i sound like a right hippie.
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righto - draws are out of mecca. the new bits are in the cave at the bottom if you want to go and get them.
the rotten bits, one was cut a third of the way through, have been taken for testing. maillons are somewhere else to discourage re equippage.
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righto - draws are out of mecca. the new bits are in the cave at the bottom if you want to go and get them.
the rotten bits, one was cut a third of the way through, have been taken for testing. maillons are somewhere else to discourage re equippage.
Thanks Ben, that's saved me a job.
On the old tape/krabs I'd also be interested to know there destruction data, especially the draw at the bottom of the groove as I've taken big lobs on it.
I don't think leaving fixed gear could ever be considered a step forward rather than a retrograde step. I'm also intrigued to know how does stick clipping up a route can effect anyone else other than the person doing it? Does it make peoples eyes bleed?
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My general point (when not just winding people up) through all of this has been that people have different ideas about what is generally acceptable and that these ideas may develop over time. Where access is not an issue, I see no reason for a blanket proscription on leaving draws in, even if it seems lazy to you. Personally I find yorkshire top-roping/headpointing of sport routes and Shark-style dependence on clipsticks pretty distasteful, but I accept that these people have a different take on things.
Fuck i sound like a right hippie.
Unfortunately (or fortunately for everybody else) you are in a minority here and it would seem that as the majority would not like to risk access problems arising in the future, these 'ideas' which you say have developed over time are avoided. They are certainly not a step forward.
Mecca is a perfect example of how this issue could lead to access problems. I'm sure many (the majority) will be glad Ben has removed them.
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Its a matter of taste. And clearly a step back? Or not...
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Its a matter of taste.
Not when it has the potential to do more damage than an extra dog up your route each time you arrive at the crag.
And clearly a step back? Or not...
In my eyes, definitely a step back. How would it be interpretted by the National Turst, Wildlife Trust, powers that be? I suspect you know the answer to that.
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I was alluding to yorkshire headpointing! the implication was that Dylan's teleological view was entirely subjective insofar as rock climbing is concerned
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Where access is not an issue, I see no reason for a blanket proscription on leaving draws in, even if it seems lazy to you.
Aye, I think we get the message now.
Personally I find yorkshire top-roping/headpointing of sport routes and Shark-style dependence on clipsticks pretty distasteful, but I accept that these people have a different take on things.
Seems completely backward to me this? You've no beef with folk drilling holes in the crag, or leaving xmas decorations dangling all over, but seeing other folk being a tiny bit timid really leaves a bad taste? So you're basically saying what's important to you is willy-waving in front of your mates, in the most convenient venue? I suggest you move to New York and climb in a downtown 'gym'.
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Got it in one, but sadly I need to work on my physique a bit (and willy!) before I could viably do that. And no I have no probs with holes and xmas decorations.
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Personally I find yorkshire top-roping/headpointing of sport routes and Shark-style dependence on clipsticks pretty distasteful, but I accept that these people have a different take on things.
Fuck i sound like a right cunt
:agree:
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sorry to anyone offended by the new biners.
If anyone's going there tonight and wouldn't mind picking them up before they become someone's crag-swag, that'd be greatly appreciated.
:thumbsup:
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:ohmy:
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sorry to anyone offended by the new biners.
If anyone's going there tonight and wouldn't mind picking them up before they become someone's crag-swag, that'd be greatly appreciated.
:thumbsup:
If they're still there I'll pick them up tomorrow morning
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:off: all these tales of deathy draws has made me consider if leaving my gear in my damp rucsac all the time is the best thing to do? any of you tech types have any recommendations? should I just hang them up next to the dehumidifier at home?!
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Sunlight is more of an issue than damp. Nylon is a bit weaker than wet, but it recovers when you dry it out.
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sorry to anyone offended by the new biners.
If anyone's going there tonight and wouldn't mind picking them up before they become someone's crag-swag, that'd be greatly appreciated.
:thumbsup:
They are right in the back under the start of the route, well out of sight until you get up to the start of Mecca.
On the old tape/krabs I'd also be interested to know there destruction data, especially the draw at the bottom of the groove as I've taken big lobs on it.
Depending on where I go on holiday next week (N.Wales or somewhere else) I will pop into dmm and get them tested. All the mayons show fair bit of wear - big grooves in the bolt end and pretty brown/rusty, they are likely to be strong still but I will prob test one (any suggestions for the others?)
I have got the 2 long slings + 1 old spirit biner. These look fairly knackered - the long one from the crux (4th bolt/3rd permadraw) is cut about 1/3rd through where it goes around the mayon, I would be very surprised if it made double figures in kN but will let people know after the testing (I am no expert in slings, have tested a fair few biners but much less tapes). Ignoring the access/eyesore issue this is a pretty crucial runner on Mecca, with people skipping the 3rd bolt (which is normall) and then often falling off the crux onto the 4th bolt if this did snap you would be hitting the ground.
ps Joe - hope the biners + slings get back to you ok - felt it someone might be more upset to find the draws had been taken off somewhere when they got to the crag rather than stashed at the bottom...
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Ignoring the access/eyesore issue this is a pretty crucial runner on Mecca, with people skipping the 3rd bolt (which is normal) and then often falling off the crux onto the 4th bolt if this did snap you would be hitting the ground.
exactamundo
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Did whoever took them out strip Evolution, Mutation, the toilet and the stuff on the left? The Evolution ones are always the first I notice.
P.S. Dan, I hope you weren't affected by any laziness and took your draws out at the end of every day when you were on Unjustified? (I'll feel like an idiot if you now tell me you did, but there were certainly a bunch of someone's in for a while on the bit after the 7b around that time.)
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Did whoever took them out strip Evolution, Mutation, the toilet and the stuff on the left? The Evolution ones are always the first I notice.
P.S. Dan, I hope you weren't affected by any laziness and took your draws out at the end of every day when you were on Unjustified? (I'll feel like an idiot if you now tell me you did, but there were certainly a bunch of someone's in for a while on the bit after the 7b around that time.)
If I did leave any in they were only ever on the top wall and were there over night on a Saturday, until I returned on a Sunday morning. :guilty: I think this occurred once. Otherwise they will have been Paul's or Sam's. They certainly weren't 'insitu' and certainly didn't have maillons.
Most people from time to time will leave draws in if they are intending on visiting again soon, I am no exception, and essentially it is born from convenience (lazy if you want to be cynical).
As I said, most are guilty from time to time.
However, the Mecca draws, like Ecstasy at Kilnsey are very much 'Insitu'.
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http://twitpic.com/5t3wdu (http://twitpic.com/5t3wdu)
The draw that came out of mecca
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Did whoever took them out strip Evolution, Mutation, the toilet and the stuff on the left? The Evolution ones are always the first I notice.
You ought to really, Ben. We can't have the Tor as a museum to laziness!
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We were planning to take the Evolution ones out too but didn't get around to it - they are very obvious from the road - but as we were at the tor to go free climbing not aid climbing and I had to be back for school pick up there was no time. Hopefully the mecca de-equiping will encourage others to remove some of the other insitue draws (maybe even the people whose draws they are?)
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We were planning to take the Evolution ones out too but didn't get around to it - they are very obvious from the road - but as we were at the tor to go free climbing not aid climbing and I had to be back for school pick up there was no time. Hopefully the mecca de-equiping will encourage others to remove some of the other insitue draws (maybe even the people whose draws they are?)
especially after ru's post;
I don't know about the access at other crags, but I do know that Raven Tor is owned by the National Trust and they regularly inspect the crag. I also know, having asked them during one such visit, that they neither understand nor like fixed gear and when asked which fixed gear they were referring to it was the situ draws on Mecca. They'd noticed other odds and sods, but the person I spoke to acknowledged that the bolts and odd crab were difficult to see unless you were looking for them.
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Nice one Ben and Ben
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What a crock of shit.
I have no real opinion re fixed gear one way or another, but there is a right and a wrong way to go about stuff.
Taking the draws out of Mecca, belonging to someone else, who you haven't spoken too first and leaving them at the crag for anyone to walk off with is totally out of order.
Firstly they could have been nicked.
Secondly, when Joe turned up to the crag to climb on Thursday evening, they had gone! Fortunately he had spotted the fact they had been removed on this thread and took extra draws just incase they had been nicked. Good job really, otherwise his drive out to the Torr would have been a waste of petrol.
Not only that, he didn't have a draw the right length for the 3rd clip (the critical draw which he went to the trouble of pointing out on this thread prior to them being removed) so had to bastardise the draws he had, without much success, meaning clipping was more difficult than it should have been.
Common courtesy would have been to find out who they belong to prior to going and removing them. Perhaps then asking said person to remove them when they next climbed would have been the reasonable thing to do. Keeping in mind, he climbs there 3 days a week, I'm sure leaving them for 48hrs wouldn't of offended too many purists. Being as though there's been in situ gear in Mecca for years.
Failing that, telling Joe, the draws were going to be removed in a week, giving him ample to time to get them himself, would have been the next best thing.
Or if you really felt that compelled to take them out there and then, holding on to them and getting them back to the rightful owner, would have been reasonable.
That's what I think anyway.
Anyway, must dash, there's a car badly parked on my street. I'm just going to put the window through, hotwire it and leave it out of sight for the owner to collect when they go out next.
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Anyway, must dash, there's a car badly parked on my street. I'm just going to put the window through, hotwire it and leave it out of sight for the owner to collect when they go out next.
Gosh, go steady there. That's a bit different really and I don't think that's relevant or helpful.
Firstly they could have been nicked.
Unlikely:
They are right in the back under the start of the route, well out of sight until you get up to the start of Mecca.
...
ps Joe - hope the biners + slings get back to you ok - felt it someone might be more upset to find the draws had been taken off somewhere when they got to the crag rather than stashed at the bottom...
I was with Shark when he collected the draws, they were well out of sight (Simon needed me to help him find them!). And Joe has them back.
You have a point that maybe some effort could have been made to ask Joe to take them himself, which would have avoided him from having to improvise when he was at the crag, as you point out. I think a bit more tolerance for people acting without the benefit of hindsight / being perfect would help.
If the 'draws in evolution belong to anyone reading, take them out in the next week before I do ;)
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The point I'm simply trying to make, in a very long winded rant, is that there's been gear in it for years. The mecca kit was new, therefore obviously recently replaced. A quick ask around at the crag would have I.D'd the owner. This in my opinion would have been a more reasonable way of doing things.
Just for the record Joe isn't remotely bothered. I just felt it was a bit off side
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The point I'm simply trying to make, in a very long winded rant, is that there's been gear in it for years. The mecca kit was new, therefore obviously recently replaced. A quick ask around at the crag would have I.D'd the owner. This in my opinion would have been a more reasonable way of doing things.
Just for the record Joe isn't remotely bothered. I just felt it was a bit off side
I was under the impression that the draws were donated by DMM and kindly put in my Joe.
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Presumably whoever removed them didn't know who they belonged too, as they had made no effort to find out.
Regardless whether he paid for them or not, it still potentially left him drawless for a session, having driven out there.
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Presumably whoever removed them didn't know who they belonged too, as they had made no effort to find out.
Regardless whether he paid for them or not, it still potentially left him drawless for a session, having driven out there.
Crikey! a bit of inconvenience versus potential access problems at the tor? :-\
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Well all the draws in all the other routes don't seem to affected access rights since last Thursday. I'm sure it could have waited 48hrs.
I'm all for taking in situ gear out. That's not the point I was making.
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Ben&Ben you fucking inconsiderate wankers, next time you have the nerve to remove an eyesore from the crag just fucking remember to giftwrap the draws and fedex them back to the generous benefactor along with a bouquet of lilys and a box of Terry's All Gold by way of an apology. I don't know how you people sleep at night.
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I have enjoyed this thread very much. Thanks all.
Given that it is sometimes hard for me to spot the footholds on limestone because of naturally visually disruptive colours of the rock, I was wondering if some limestone-camo coloured draws might be a little less damaging to crag access. I did think about draw socks made out of shades-of-grey DPM lycra to cover the tape, but realised that these might slip off when grabbed.
Lagerstarfish Lazy-Draws will be available in the shops before the start of next season.
other ethically interesting products will also be in the range
(http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/zz114/chadlaplace/berettaafter.jpg?t=1277402223)
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here we go
urban camo gaffer tape (http://www.fancy-tapes.co.uk/store/product/34-100/)
(http://www.fancy-tapes.co.uk/store/img/221_s.jpg)
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I have been pondering this thread this week as I've formerly spoken in favour of situ draws because they are so convenient and even left a couple in high up on the Prow before. I realise I was wrong.
As I was at the tor this morning and at a loose end I stripped the various draws from the wall right of Mecca as they are the most visually obvious ones at the crag as has been noted above. I didn't know whose they were when I took them out but was told who they belonged to afterwards so will endevour to contact them directly to return them. Having only recently held the view that in-situ or perma draws are OK I can well imagine how pissed off they'll be when I get in touch.
The reasons I did it are that perma-draws are a growing trend and at a showcase crag like Raven Tor on one of its top routes it is not only unsightly but also sets a bad example and a bad precedent for the practice to grow and get taken for granted which would be problematic at other crags which have more sensitive access issues. That aside if it is generally felt that crags look better without draws then it is plain selfish to them in.
Ben Pritch has taken out the situ-draws on Mecca, Reeve has taken the more obvious ones out of Prow pitch2 and in addition I took out a couple very old ones to the right of Pitch 1 of the Prow (Whore of Babylon?). There is a lot of other stuff still left in. It will be telling if they are removed by whoever they belong to or third parties.
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The thing I don't understand is why modern sport climbers are so considerate. Back in the day you didn't leave draws in routes because they got nicked - simple as that. Many a 90's sport climbers rack of draws consisted of more than a few in-situ beauties squawked from foreign crags.
Exhibit 1, your Honour, is my timeless classic of a beautiful Petzl Spirit draw with a nice long sew sling (60cm's as I recall) covered in sponsors logos - 're-appropriated' after Francois Legrand left it somewhere he shouldn't. The punter.
The days when climbers were a little bit naughty seem long gone - now its all about protein recovery drinks, stretching, heart rate monitors and clean living.
Oh - that's why I go bouldering.
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that's why I go bouldering.
yeah, I find it easier to pinch stuff that people leave on the ground too
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What about having a "Perma Gear Amnesty Box" at every crag? This would in itself be "in-situ", so may open a whole new can of worms. Surely worth some consideration though :)
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i'd just like to point out that whilst my post about taking the draws out of mecca might have appeared blunt and indicated a less than considerate attitude to joe's clips, el mocho, myself and one other had quite a long discussion about the relative merits of various courses of action that would mean that the owner (at that point unknown) would get their equipment back. (which they did by the way)
now it seems to me that, apart from joe being slightly inconvenienced, our actions have resulted in raven tor being de equipped which i very much doubt would have happened had we 'asked around'.
they've been there for years and no-one has done anything. well we were there and one of us was motivated enough to remove them so they got removed.
with respect to whether we should have waited - this is obviously debatable but as it happens all of our time is limited (either by work or childcare) so it would have been another month before i get back there and at least a couple of weeks until el m gets bacjk there so this would have delayed matters by who knows how long? forever maybe? maybe by the time we got back to the tor every route would have been equipped.
and maybe this was the week that the national trust turned up and banned us? we'll never know about that one but at least it is no longer a possibility.
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I have been pondering this thread this week as I've formerly spoken in favour of situ draws because they are so convenient and even left a couple in high up on the Prow before. I realise I was wrong.
I am thinking along similar lines, i think. However, if they are not visually obvious what is your opinion on leaving them?
Lets say, if you know a route and are working it, and you still have to squint pretty hard to see whether they are still up there. IF there are no known access issues surrounding fixed gear, i can't see why they shouldn't be left in this case, on a route where it potentially makes a difference to say, how many goes you'd get on it in a day.
It seems as though, in the case of the tor, that the potential for access problems overrides any considerations of convenience, as you say.
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I have been pondering this thread this week as I've formerly spoken in favour of situ draws because they are so convenient and even left a couple in high up on the Prow before. I realise I was wrong.
I am thinking along similar lines, i think. However, if they are not visually obvious what is your opinion on leaving them?
Although they are less of an issue ideally still best taken out on the basis they are a bad example / precedent. The occasional single biner or mailon is more than adequate for stripping routes.
What about having a "Perma Gear Amnesty Box" at every crag? This would in itself be "in-situ", so may open a whole new can of worms. Surely worth some consideration though :)
Joking apart I think as a rule of thumb a better solution would be to leave removed draws in the belays if the owners are unknown as it tidies the route up and makes the point.
and maybe this was the week that the national trust turned up and banned us? we'll never know about that one but at least it is no longer a possibility.
Worth considering what you would do if they get put back in. One climber yesterday said he intended to do so on the basis that they have been there for years. Whether he does so is a different matter.
I'm glad to report that the owners of the draws on Evolution etc have been really cool about it :thumbsup:
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I think Shark hit the nail on the head about insitu draws on routes such as Mecca setting a bad precedent and hence encouraging a bit of a trend and acceptability. I bet The Tor looks much better now, good work all!
I've heard that Franklin character is going down to Pembroke soon, hopefully he'll leave his poxy dyneema draws insitu in The Leap thus causing yet another stir that this time results in all those unsightly threads being chopped.. :worms:
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Let me have a think about the best way to ruffle some feathers. I had may as well go the whole hog and piss off some surfers whilst we're down there too! :-\
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i'd just like to point out that whilst my post about taking the draws out of mecca might have appeared blunt and indicated a less than considerate attitude to joe's clips, el mocho, myself and one other had quite a long discussion about the relative merits of various courses of action that would mean that the owner (at that point unknown) would get their equipment back. (which they did by the way)
now it seems to me that, apart from joe being slightly inconvenienced, our actions have resulted in raven tor being de equipped which i very much doubt would have happened had we 'asked around'.
they've been there for years and no-one has done anything. well we were there and one of us was motivated enough to remove them so they got removed.
with respect to whether we should have waited - this is obviously debatable but as it happens all of our time is limited (either by work or childcare) so it would have been another month before i get back there and at least a couple of weeks until el m gets bacjk there so this would have delayed matters by who knows how long? forever maybe? maybe by the time we got back to the tor every route would have been equipped.
and maybe this was the week that the national trust turned up and banned us? we'll never know about that one but at least it is no longer a possibility.
:bow:
painful, and not without the above responses... but if we want these playgrounds to remain for our sport Ben... you did right.
thanks.
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he didn't have a draw the right length for the 3rd clip (the critical draw
As someone with some experience of inspecting kit, I saw this draw over the weekend and I'd say this is the single most badly damaged piece of gear I have ever seen still in use. If I saw a mate rack up with it I would have physically prevented them from using it. Access issues aside, the third clip was a very nasty accident about to happen.
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he didn't have a draw the right length for the 3rd clip (the critical draw
As someone with some experience of inspecting kit, I saw this draw over the weekend and I'd say this is the single most badly damaged piece of gear I have ever seen still in use. If I saw a mate rack up with it I would have physically prevented them from using it. Access issues aside, the third clip was a very nasty accident about to happen.
I didn't see him rack up with it, as it was IN-SITU! Hence this never ending thread.
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I wasn't implying you did? The point was the removal of the draw caused you a slight inconvenience. Leaving it there could have caused you a far bigger inconvenience. The damage was well hidden and its not surprising no one had been concerned enough to remove it.
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having no time/inclination to read the previous 8 pages can i assume that
a) people generally are saying draws should not be left on the crag as its unsightly at public venues and makes us look like scruffy bastards
b)other people are aguing that they have been inconvienienced due to the stripping of insitu draws as its really hard to re gear a sport route
................
:shrug:
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I appreciate that, but that has nothing to do with the point that I made originally. It would be relevant if the draws were removed because they looked dangerous, but that WASN'T why they were removed.
I also have no issue with the reasons they were removed. I just felt that the manner in which they were taken out, showed a distinct lack of respect for the person who owned them/was using them. Simple as that.
People seem to be trying to justify other peoples actions, by picking fault with points I'm not even trying to make.
Those peeps have explained why they did what they did and all is right in the World once more. In my tiny World that is. I still stand by my rant, but it's all done and dusted.
I appreciate my opinion doesn't seem to be as valid as that of other people on this site, but in my opinion this topic has been done to death.
:wall:
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having no time/inclination to read the previous 8 pages
That attitude is what got us in a mess in the first place ;)
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having no time/inclination to read the previous 8 pages
That attitude is what got us in a mess in the first place ;)
:agree:
Simon, as the owner of this fine establishment, can't you take this thread out into the woods and put it out of it's misery with a heavy shovel?
It's had a good innings and keeping it alive while it's suffering is just cruel
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A good way to let threads die is to stop posting on them ;)
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I appreciate my opinion doesn't seem to be as valid as that of other people on this site
That's nonsense ! your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's .... it just happens to be wrong 8)
Simon, as the owner of this fine establishment, can't you take this thread out into the woods and put it out of it's misery with a heavy shovel?
Oh please dont, I'm really enjoying it :popcorn:
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It would be relevant if the draws were removed because they looked dangerous, but that WASN'T why they were removed.
The point of wear-and-tear was raised several times in the thread, and was a part of the motivations of those who removed them. You can ignore that if you like though, and keep ranting. Despite being fairly blase about it earlier, having inspected and tested the draws since I now consider UV damage and gradual wear to be a pretty serious issue for in-situ draws.
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I appreciate my opinion doesn't seem to be as valid as that of other people on this site
That's nonsense ! your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's .... it just happens to be wrong 8)
Well played Sir.
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having no time/inclination to read the previous 8 pages can i assume that
a) people generally are saying draws should not be left on the crag as its unsightly at public venues and makes us look like scruffy bastards
b)other people are aguing that they have been inconvienienced due to the stripping of insitu draws as its really hard to re gear a sport route
................
:shrug:
a) . . . and may cause access issues
b) correct
and c) some people are arguing that they can leave draws in irrespective of the opinion of others simply because they can't be arsed to take them out
You probably missed (c) because it was somewhere on pages 1 to 4 (ish).
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I don't know about the access at other crags, but I do know that Raven Tor is owned by the National Trust and they regularly inspect the crag. I also know, having asked them during one such visit, that they neither understand nor like fixed gear
I spoke to Zippy and he also said the NT weren't at all happy about the fixed gear.
I've also taken Stone's? slings out of Body Machine. If anyone feels especially strongly that the bolt protecting the rockover is particularly hard to clip let me know and I'll put an extra one in lower down.
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You should be able to find a video of testing the perma-draw removed from Mecca's fourth bolt at the bottom of this news item http://dmmclimbing.com/news/2011/07/mecca-quickdraw-test/ (http://dmmclimbing.com/news/2011/07/mecca-quickdraw-test/) Definitely not as strong as you'd like if you were far above it.
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So recent ascensionists get an E9 tick then, seeing as they've effectively been climbing 8b+ above a Wallnut #1 :lol:
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that's very interesting.
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that's very interesting scary
well done to the guys for stripping it, I know it wasn't the prime motive but probably saved a nasty accident and an education for us all.
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You should be able to find a video of testing the perma-draw removed from Mecca's fourth bolt at the bottom of this news item http://dmmclimbing.com/news/2011/07/mecca-quickdraw-test/ (http://dmmclimbing.com/news/2011/07/mecca-quickdraw-test/) Definitely not as strong as you'd like if you were far above it.
Great video! Seems to me that the greatest incentive is the thought of decent gear getting swiped - hence, the common policy should probably be to strip the route and leave the draws out in full view, even on ebay, until the owner steps forward to collect them ASAP.
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Couple of minor points to add - not sure how long those draws had been in place, but a fair bit less than five years I think.
Second, although Ben says a climbing fall might generate 2-8kN, that's the force on the climber. Due to the pulley effect on the top runner (ie falling force on one side, plus belayer force on the other) forces can be much higher, theoretically doubled but usually less. I don't think that draw would have lasted the summer without causing a nasty accident. Especially if Dylan carries on forgetting to clip the fourth...
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Couple of minor points to add - not sure how long those draws had been in place, but a fair bit less than five years I think.
If those that have been tested are the original insitu ones that were put in on maillons, then they've been there at least since 2005. So maybe more like 6 years+. I've just looked at some old photos of rich heap on mecca in july 2005 and the draws are deffo on maillons and petzl draws.
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I've also taken Stone's? slings out of Body Machine. If anyone feels especially strongly that the bolt protecting the rockover is particularly hard to clip let me know and I'll put an extra one in lower down.
I put a lower bolt in yesterday as the existing one is too high.
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Are any of these insitu draws which were removed still knocking about? I'm in the process of getting the BMC's portable test machine up and running, if it's ready in time then breaking some of the draws would be quite a topical subject for the next Area Meeting, to compliment the excellent DMM video.
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I'll email Stone to see if he wants the slings back. They would have had some action. Reeve has a couple from the Prow if you want to PM him. None of them would have had anything like the wear and tear of the Mecca ones.
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I have some old (c.20 years) well stored and not used much (ie non UV'd but old) QD's you can test if you like?
As well as some old (30 years?) ones - origin unknown?
In fact there would probably be great merit in testing as many as possible from a range of ages, so you get a good number of results (max, min, averages, distributions etc..)? I'm sure folk on here have a range of old kit they wouldnt mind donating for research?
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Are any of these insitu draws which were removed still knocking about? I'm in the process of getting the BMC's portable test machine up and running, if it's ready in time then breaking some of the draws would be quite a topical subject for the next Area Meeting, to compliment the excellent DMM video.
I'll email Stone to see if he wants the slings back. They would have had some action.
They weren't Stone's - his were on Bodybuilder which he took out. So you are welcome to them. Shall I post them or leave them at the Foundry or just hang them off a bolt at Raven Tor ?
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I have some old (c.20 years) well stored and not used much (ie non UV'd but old) QD's you can test if you like?
As well as some old (30 years?) ones - origin unknown?
In fact there would probably be great merit in testing as many as possible from a range of ages, so you get a good number of results (max, min, averages, distributions etc..)? I'm sure folk on here have a range of old kit they wouldnt mind donating for research?
:agree: and have several old sports and trad draws and krabs that I would be happy to donate for testing
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Thanks guys for the offer of stuff to break. I reckon the easiest thing to do is to bring anything to the meeting. If you can't make it, give it to a mate who can. I'm also hoping to take the test rig on tour to other areas after I do the one in the Peak. I'll do a post to remind people on here and the other channel nearer the time.
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Sounds like it would make a great dissertation/project for any Undergrads studying engineering/material science who climb.... volunteers??
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Dylan and I went on Mecca last night. Dylan, who is practically a pygmy he's so small was able to bolt to bolt the entire thing in five minutes without even so much as a clip stick. I think he commented how perfectly warmed up he felt after this, and went on to redpoint the route in fine style.
(Some of the above is lies)
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I am of course 6ft 4
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Dylan and I went on Mecca last night. Dylan, who is practically a pygmy he's so small was able to bolt to bolt the entire thing in five minutes without even so much as a clip stick. I think he commented how perfectly warmed up he felt after this, and went on to redpoint the route in fine style.
(Some of the above is lies)
I hope he took the clips out between redpoints? During the day is, of course, when draws are most visible - not during the night (you know, when they've been left in by those sport climbing types). Why am I asking? Being such a fine chap of course he will have taken them out!
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My karma's not too far off neutral - I need taking down a peg or two.
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Dylan and I went on Mecca last night. Dylan, who is practically a pygmy he's so small was able to bolt to bolt the entire thing in five minutes without even so much as a clip stick. I think he commented how perfectly warmed up he felt after this, and went on to redpoint the route in fine style.
(Some of the above is lies)
I hope he took the clips out between redpoints? During the day is, of course, when draws are most visible - not during the night (you know, when they've been left in by those sport climbing types). Why am I asking? Being such a fine chap of course he will have taken them out!
:yawn:
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:yawn:
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Sounds like it would make a great dissertation/project for any Undergrads studying engineering/material science who climb.... volunteers??
Dr Andrew McLaren at Strathclyde always ran a few UG thesis projects on this type of thing. Often students just tested krabs to failure and learnt nothing new, but a dent trail with a load of old draws with some decent statistical analysis would be quite interesting!
I might see if he's interested.
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:yawn: :wall:
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How very rude.
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I am of course 6ft 4
only with go-go gadget legs fully extended
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From the DFBWGC etc... thread, second article in the mag (on the cover - 'perma problem') anyone read the article?
(http://www.prana.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/228922_10150349541265030_44155870029_10248243_4109813_n.jpg)
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Interesting press release from Mammut (full post here (http://www.mammut.ch/ropes_handling_note.html?utm_source=presse_newsletter_Warnung&utm_medium=E-Mail&utm_campaign=presse_newsletter_Warnung_EN)):
Mammut is urgently calling for the immediate discontinuation of use and removal of permanently installed quick draws and carabiners in climbing areas. Irrespective of the manufacturer of such equipment, repeated wear can result in the formation of sharp edges capable of damaging or completely severing ropes, even in relatively small falls. Investigations by Mammut have shown that this known problem is actually far more dramatic than previously assumed and represents a very high risk for climbers.
Combined with the weakening effect of hanger burrs on webbing identified above, it's perhaps surprising there haven't been more accidents. Calling for a total moratorium sounds extreme, but there was a death (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67521) last month in Switzerland. More discussion by BD http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb//qc-lab-dangers-of-rope-worn-carabiners
.
Personally I doubt people are going to stop using them, and I'd urge climbers to take personal responsibility, learn where problems are likely and what to look for, and make careful inspection part of their warm-up/ first go.
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I attended a rope seminar last week; the rep from Beal was pretty clear that anything other than a well radiused, polished rope bearing surface would at at the very least cause premature wear to a rope. Steel krabs or cheap poorly polished alloy ones trash moving ropes, matt anodising is particularly bad too. Nicks, burrs and sharp edged grooves formed by wear will destroy the sheath easily. I don't know the exact circumstances in the Swiss fatality, but my guess is the rope probably failed because as well as the sharp edge on the krab, it sounds like there was a sharp change in direction in the rope path (under a roof) which would make any fall much more violent because it effectively raises the fall factor. (there's probably also a stress concentrating effect on the rope just where you don't want it).
Thing is, on some routes not having permadraws is going to be pretty impractical. In these cases, it has to be incumbent on the climber to case the route out first and check the condition of the draws, replacing rope krabs where needed. Sometimes I'm glad I'm a punter, this isn't something that's likley to affect me, but for you wads out there, take care!
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...
Steel krabs or cheap poorly polished alloy ones trash moving ropes, matt anodising is particularly bad too.
...
By this do you mean steel biners on fixed draws are worse than aluminum alloy biners? I'd have thought steel biners would wear at a much slower rate at least. Or is there a comparatively worse burring effect on steels?
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The steel krab wears much less, but the problem is many steel krabs do not have the smooth polished finish required, so the rough surface does the damage rather than a worn krab. That make sense?
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Can't say I've ever seen roughly finished steel krabs myself, but if a matt finish on an alloy krab is an issue then these are common on steel krabs. These smooth off with wear, but I've never really seen the rope grooves you get worn into alloy krabs.
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If you want to see some truly horrifying draws then try climbing at Lourmarin, its like the bolters took the mecca draws, larks footed them together and when they ran out of 'draws' they started using the remnants of chopped, ruined ropes to make their own. They then stuck a Nike Air tick and Nutella labels to a few!
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IF you're going to rely on tat give me rope over tape any day; so much more durable.
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There are some stainless Krabs on the market, however they are not very easy to clip, and are pretty expensive, compared to alloy ones.
I also saw some permanent draws with wire instead of slings, however the rope clipping Karb would need to be stainless to limit wear.
Isn't it about time the climbing walls put some demands on the gear manufacturers to have some nice stainless biners that are easy to clip. With the number of walls in the UK surely there would be a good market for this. A stainless version of the the alpha would be a massive seller as these are used in an industrial / rather than leisure situation.
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There are some stainless Krabs on the market, however they are not very easy to clip, and are pretty expensive, compared to alloy ones.
I also saw some permanent draws with wire instead of slings, however the rope clipping Karb would need to be stainless to limit wear.
Isn't it about time the climbing walls put some demands on the gear manufacturers to have some nice stainless biners that are easy to clip. With the number of walls in the UK surely there would be a good market for this. A stainless version of the the alpha would be a massive seller as these are used in an industrial / rather than leisure situation.
In my view I'd rather they didn't as it's one more reason to do away with perma-draws altogether.
I would be wholly unimpressed with a manufacturer who developed one with the covert or overt intention that they are used for this purpose and distributed it in the UK.
Other countries can do what they like.
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Can whichever hero has left their quickdraws in Mecca Extension please take them out.
Don't want the rot to set in again.
Thank you.
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Can whichever hero has left their quickdraws in Mecca Extension please take them out.
Don't want the rot to set in again.
Thank you.
Good to see that these have been removed :thumbsup:
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Draws left in Mecca Extension (or a variant on) and Sardine (or a variant on) tonight. Come on folks, clean your shit up.
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Last Sunday Kilnsey was pretty bad for in-situs too at the end of the day; there's serious creep on this issue ATM and I'm not just talking of routes that are hard to strip.
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Last Sunday Kilnsey was pretty bad for in-situs too at the end of the day; there's serious creep on this issue ATM and I'm not just talking of routes that are hard to strip.
Thats the least of kilnseys worries. Parking was bad again today. Farmer is getting pissed off. He will just ban access if its not sorted out.
The bmc need to pit some signs up asap, before its too late.
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Thread necro!
I'd written a post for the BMC website about the dangers of forming sharp edges on perma-draws a while back, it looks like it's worse than we realised. Mammut have done a load of testing, and the results are pretty shocking: https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes (https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes)
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Thread necro!
I'd written a post for the BMC website about the dangers of forming sharp edges on perma-draws a while back, it looks like it's worse than we realised. Mammut have done a load of testing, and the results are pretty shocking: https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes (https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes)
This needs spreading
I climbed at a crag on New Zealand a month ago and the first fixed draw on a roof extension was so sharp I couldn't believe it, I took the krab out and lowered off. Could this be one of those situations where the draw is at an easy point (jugs) so no-one really stops there thereby creating one type of rope wear on the QuickDraw? I think this was the cause of a death a few years ago on an alpine route?
The other, more popular, routes with fixed draws were chunky steel ones on chains and seemed fine. Would these go the same way eventually or is this study just looking into the alloys on 'everyday' QuickDraws?
Stay safe out there
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@danm: It looks to me that the article by Mammut refers to the accident in Matletsch in september 2012 and is from late 2012. Nevertheless, most climbers seem unaware of the phenomenon. Which is strange, because climbers learn about the dangers of sharp edges in all climbing courses, both indoors and outdoors. At the moment I have around 40 karabiners lying on my desk with dangerously sharp edges, taken from outdoor routes but also from indoor climbing walls (!)...
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Pretty timely.
The route i'm trying at the moment has an in situ draw below the crux which I took at close look at yesterday.
Very sharp biner and sling frayed.
I'll be putting my own qd there for my redpoints.
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Take it off and chuck it in the bin.
I fell off a route at smith rock a few years ago and heard a strange sound as the rope went tight. Looked up to see lots of core showing, after the fixed draw had shredded the sheath. I took the offending draw down, and lobbed it in the bin. A few locals had a bit of a pop at me for it, but I'd rather piss off some people than risk somebody killing themselves.
Smith rock was crazy for the fixed biners, especially seeing as everything is vertical and easy to strip.
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Thread necro!
I'd written a post for the BMC website about the dangers of forming sharp edges on perma-draws a while back, it looks like it's worse than we realised. Mammut have done a load of testing, and the results are pretty shocking: https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes (https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes)
This needs spreading
I climbed at a crag on New Zealand a month ago and the first fixed draw on a roof extension was so sharp I couldn't believe it, I took the krab out and lowered off. Could this be one of those situations where the draw is at an easy point (jugs) so no-one really stops there thereby creating one type of rope wear on the QuickDraw? I think this was the cause of a death a few years ago on an alpine route?
The other, more popular, routes with fixed draws were chunky steel ones on chains and seemed fine. Would these go the same way eventually or is this study just looking into the alloys on 'everyday' QuickDraws?
Stay safe out there
Steel is much harder wearing, so is a much better choice if the draw is left in-situ. DMM and others make special sets for climbing walls etc, where the krab is steel, but has an alloy gate for ease of use (steel gates are too heavy for easy clipping). One of these with a chain or wire sling and maillon into the bolt is the most suitable thing to use as a permadraw.
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Take it off and chuck it in the bin.
Yep, i'm going to replace the biner, but the sling wants changing too, and I can't undo the maillon.
Will try to tell a local.
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Thread necro!
I'd written a post for the BMC website about the dangers of forming sharp edges on perma-draws a while back, it looks like it's worse than we realised. Mammut have done a load of testing, and the results are pretty shocking: https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes (https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes)
This needs spreading
I climbed at a crag on New Zealand a month ago and the first fixed draw on a roof extension was so sharp I couldn't believe it, I took the krab out and lowered off. Could this be one of those situations where the draw is at an easy point (jugs) so no-one really stops there thereby creating one type of rope wear on the QuickDraw? I think this was the cause of a death a few years ago on an alpine route?
The other, more popular, routes with fixed draws were chunky steel ones on chains and seemed fine. Would these go the same way eventually or is this study just looking into the alloys on 'everyday' QuickDraws?
Stay safe out there
Steel is much harder wearing, so is a much better choice if the draw is left in-situ. DMM and others make special sets for climbing walls etc, where the krab is steel, but has an alloy gate for ease of use (steel gates are too heavy for easy clipping). One of these with a chain or wire sling and maillon into the bolt is the most suitable thing to use as a permadraw.
Cheers, just a shame those types of fixed draws are fuck ugly
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Quite surprised by this. Not the fact that a badly worn biner will shred ropes, but that folk blindly clip them in that state. When we did some tests at DMM on the Mecca perma-draws, the scenario was that the maillon had been first scored by the bolt, then rotated and cut the inside of the webbing. Much less obvious. I'm minded to say anyone having a rope damaged by a groove worn in the clipping crab deserves what they get, but I guess it's symptomatic of a general 'it's safe' sport climbing mindset.
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Quite surprised by this. Not the fact that a badly worn biner will shred ropes, but that folk blindly clip them in that state. When we did some tests at DMM on the Mecca perma-draws, the scenario was that the maillon had been first scored by the bolt, then rotated and cut the inside of the webbing. Much less obvious. I'm minded to say anyone having a rope damaged by a groove worn in the clipping crab deserves what they get, but I guess it's symptomatic of a general 'it's safe' sport climbing mindset.
Sounds like a few draws we spotted in santa linya. One particularly scary draw where half the tube of a tubular sling was no more, on the only draw a friend was clipping between L2 and L3!
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Cheers, just a shame those types of fixed draws are fuck ugly
The cheap ones, yes. More expensive ones like the Petzl Djinn steel look like an alu draw and almost feel like one. DMM Alpha Steel is good as well. The steel 'slings' (several manufacturers) ain't ugly at all. Unfortunately some (most round here actually) climbing walls and climbers won't buy anything but the cheapest draws and think they're immune to accidents.
http://dmmclimbing.com/products/alpha-steel/
https://www.petzl.com/LU/en/Sport/Carabiners-and-quickdraws/Pack-of-10-quickdraws-DJINN-STEEL-AXESS#.WNzRDRKLSEI
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I've seen photos of crags in America equipped with permadraws made from (presumably steel) chains. They look a fucking state.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BR1C1ZhB2p7/?taken-by=tc.bukowski
https://www.instagram.com/p/BRGZ2EBhNe1/?taken-by=tc.bukowski
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPxJy_DDE3e/?taken-by=tc.bukowski
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Grim
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The mind boggles doesn't it. They aren't even steep routes! There was a load of these in a route I did at red rocks called monster skank. Brilliant route in a lovely little canyon, with massive ugly chains hanging all over it.
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The mind boggles doesn't it. They aren't even steep routes! There was a load of these in a route I did at red rocks called monster skank. Brilliant route in a lovely little canyon, with massive ugly chains hanging all over it.
You lads won't want to hear about this crag I went to in California then... 30+m routes all over it, (very steep admittedly) and as far as i remember, other than the first bolt every draw is an in-situ chain draw (alloy shit ones btw). Bizarre starting to try to onsight a 14-15 clip route with 1 draw on your harness. Significantly less bothered about the aesthetics, than the incredible danger
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<img src="https://www.mountainproject.com/images/21/51/107162151_medium_5a5ad9.jpg" alt="Rock Climbing Photo: Mich Kemeter on The Fugitive 13a."/>
https://www.mountainproject.com/images/21/56/107162156_medium_716f79.jpg
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Just resurrecting this thread given the discussion around increased littering in National Parks post-Lockdown and whether climbers think leaving ‘draws in Kilnsey is a good idea?
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The following is an aside from the Q of whether it's ok to leave routes equipped more than just overnight at specific crags. However, it's relevant in the context that making sweeping statements won't convince anyone involved to take their draws out..
I don’t climb 8c but I don’t see why it’s any different to projecting 8a or 7a for that matter?
Is true only in the context that the routes are of similar styles. If, for example, we're talking about 8c and 7a down the cornice they're both v easy to strip. Similarly Freakshow and Mandela would both be ballaches to strip every session, but comparing them to comedy or directisima (or even Epic Adventures or similar) misses the obvious difference of 15m of reverse stripping in a roof.
[For context, I've left draws in the big roof before (e.g. Freakshow) but also stripped them out (e.g. Premonition) depending on whether it needs reverse stripping or can be done by lowering off. I've never bothered to leave draws in anything other than the big trav routes in the roof, apart from when leaving them in overnight between a Sat and a Sun, because it seems a bit superfluous. I currently have no draws in any routes anywhere. If my fingers were less broken and I were on Northern Lights 3x per week I'd probably have been leaving draws in...]
EDIT - I see TB's post has gone, but I'll leave this here for now
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Sorry, re-phrased and posted again before reading your reply. Same gist though.
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You can pick Mandela etc to make a point but the North Buttress would have 7as on it if it had jugs up it.
Sounds like the elite have decided it’s a different set of rules for them. Now who does that remind me of? :-\
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Ondra just seconded Mandela after a 5 minute rest to get his draws out.
There are no excuses.
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Yeah, it wouldn't be particularly justifiable - it is, after all, fine to strip everything on NB without reverse stripping - just me being honest about what I suspect I might realistically be doing if I had a proj I was going on 3x per week on there and the weather were dreamy like it was a few weeks back. The big traverses in the roof are quite different - so Freakshow is no different to Mandela, but is v different to North Buttress or Directisima
p.s. stu is an idiot ;D
p.p.s. I look forward to stu seconding The Pirate 5 min after redpointing it. No jumars allowed. :lol:
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I’d have to redpoint it first.
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It's OK, if your eyesight is badly affected by Covid and you need to go on a test drive, you won't be able to see the draws from the road.
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Just resurrecting this thread given the discussion around increased littering in National Parks post-Lockdown and whether climbers think leaving ‘draws in Kilnsey is a good idea?
I havent been up to Kilnsey this year; is it festooned with draws or are you just pre empting the issue?
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Liking this 2020 next level rule :yes: : you only get the tick if you second the route 5 min after leading.
No excuses with all this training everyone's been doing...
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Just resurrecting this thread given the discussion around increased littering in National Parks post-Lockdown and whether climbers think leaving ‘draws in Kilnsey is a good idea?
I havent been up to Kilnsey this year; is it festooned with draws or are you just pre empting the issue?
Yes lots with draws. I spoke to farmer and he is ok with it. Said he can't even see them let alone care.
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[inappropriate tight-wad Yorkshire farmer stereotype]
Just don’t tell him what a draw costs.
[/inappropriate tight-wad Yorkshire farmer stereotype]
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Isn't it as much a safety thing as anything else? Somebody mentioned on here that they'd been there on a windy day and a perma-draw dropped to the floor next to them with the bolt still attached. Obviously not an issue with glue ins.
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Isn't it as much a safety thing as anything else? Somebody mentioned on here that they'd been there on a windy day and a perma-draw dropped to the floor next to them with the bolt still attached. Obviously not an issue with glue ins.
I think you have more chance of being hit by all the loose rock at the moment!
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Isn't it as much a safety thing as anything else? Somebody mentioned on here that they'd been there on a windy day and a perma-draw dropped to the floor next to them with the bolt still attached. Obviously not an issue with glue ins.
Perma draw krabs can get worn so there is a sharp edge that can cut the rope (this has killed someone)
Perma draw tape can break at low loads - search here for the tests on the removed Mecca draws
Perma draws look unsightly to many (climbers and non-climbers) - if it doesn’t to you then respect other people’s aesthetics
It’s the outdoors not a gym, philistines
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Isn't it as much a safety thing as anything else? Somebody mentioned on here that they'd been there on a windy day and a perma-draw dropped to the floor next to them with the bolt still attached. Obviously not an issue with glue ins.
It’s the outdoors not a gym, philistines
I guess we need our bmc ambassadors setting a good example to the rest of us encouraging the fact the outdoors is not the gym.
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Isn't it as much a safety thing as anything else? Somebody mentioned on here that they'd been there on a windy day and a perma-draw dropped to the floor next to them with the bolt still attached. Obviously not an issue with glue ins.
It’s the outdoors not a gym, philistines
I guess we need our bmc ambassadors setting a good example to the rest of us encouraging the fact the outdoors is not the gym.
I’ve made my views known in person. Have you? I very much doubt it
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There’s some bright orange ones (sponsored?) currently in-situ through the top roof on the upper tier at Malham. Looks like a project as it’s too far right to be breach of peace I think but I could be wrong. You can pretty much see them from Skipton!
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Isn't it as much a safety thing as anything else? Somebody mentioned on here that they'd been there on a windy day and a perma-draw dropped to the floor next to them with the bolt still attached. Obviously not an issue with glue ins.
It’s the outdoors not a gym, philistines
I guess we need our bmc ambassadors setting a good example to the rest of us encouraging the fact the outdoors is not the gym.
I’ve made my views known in person. Have you? I very much doubt it
No as it doesnt bother me.
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My personal take:
Leaving draws in overnight if you know you’re coming back early next day = ok sometimes. Leaving draws in for days when you’re not present at the crag = not ok.
But then I don’t climb huge roofs so for me it’s an easy rule to stick to.
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What’s the deal with the fixed rope at Chee Cornice that’s been there all week?
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What’s the deal with the fixed rope at Chee Cornice that’s been there all week?
Chris Plant’s project I gather. Been up there for at least 3 weeks. Needs taking down
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If people are leaving obvious draws in for weeks on end it does seem prudent not to use luminous orange ones or similar..
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At a quiet backwater like Malham where no tourists ever ever go - should be fine... 😱😜
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What’s the deal with the fixed rope at Chee Cornice that’s been there all week?
Chris Plant’s project I gather. Been up there for at least 3 weeks. Needs taking down
I heard on the other channel that the landowner (DWT) will be in the area on Tuesday, so might be advised to get rid of this rope before then? Anyone got a contact for Plantpot so we can get him to take it down, or anyone willing to do it for him?
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There’s some bright orange ones (sponsored?) currently in-situ through the top roof on the upper tier at Malham. Looks like a project as it’s too far right to be breach of peace I think but I could be wrong. You can pretty much see them from Skipton!
If they go through the roof above obsession that was tried briefly last year before birds began colonising it. I can think of several potential owners: would encourage mentioning it on the Yorks FB group Ali as someone will know whose they are.
There are always some that stay in the wall but colour seems to be key so people don't clock them. If they are a darker colour they won't be spotted and it's probably not an issue.