UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: north_country_boy on January 06, 2009, 06:42:37 pm
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http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2009/01/therapy.html (http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2009/01/therapy.html)
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Wow.
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Very wise post too from Dave......
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A very considered post but I think the comment 'It would be a shame if our hard E grade climbs, which really are great masterpieces of rock climbs and stories, implode into a black hole of sensationalist rubbish headlines and witch-hunts on ukclimbing.com.' is sadly likely to be prophetic with ill informed and defamatory speculation.
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Stop being so nice, Dave! We want to see claws, meeeow!
;)
:bow: to JP and the MC
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:bow:
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Small numbers.
Again could boil down to Keenus being rubbish at judging ball-nuts ;)
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Few thoughts...
- Very good of Dave Mac to go down and do it. An impressive logistical as well as climbing effort. He really is Mr UK Trad now.
- He might have had much better conditions than Keenus, it does make a difference on the culm stuff.
- Ball nuts.
- Down from 7a to 6c?
- Grade is for a hypothetical onsight, I still reckon that with this route, due to it's length complexity and general blindness/obtusness, there could be a greater than usual difference between a headpoint and onsight ascent.
- Looking at UKC I'm very glad Mick R. isn't on here, god his loathsome political posturing makes me queasy just scanning over it.
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Ace stuff keeps happening, it's brilliant.
Well done Dave.
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Few thoughts...
- He might have had much better conditions than Keenus, it does make a difference on the culm stuff.
- Ball nuts.
- Down from 7a to 6c?
- Grade is for a hypothetical onsight, I still reckon that with this route, due to it's length complexity and general blindness/obtusness, there could be a greater than usual difference between a headpoint and onsight ascent.
Bollocks. Just massively overgraded. Like The Promise.
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A crushing refutation there. I'm convinced.
(BTW is that the same Promise that was originally done without pads and graded on the (mistaken) assumption the ballnut was rubbish, and then repeated with pads and lots of falls taken on the ballnut?? Or a different Promise??)
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Yeah, the very same. To further refute your point, if you can't place gear properly does that mean Left Wall is E5?
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WOW, WOW, WOW. Agree nice and interesting comments on blog. Inspirational stuff indeed. :great:
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- Very good of Dave Mac to go down and do it. An impressive logistical as well as climbing effort. He really is Mr UK Trad now.
Hang on a second, Fiend. Are you honestly saying that the cream of UK trad is represented by pre-practise and pre-inspection? When the likes of Robins, McHaffie, El Mocho and a host of other supremely talented on sight climbers are quietly going about their thing?
Man, you are completely missing the point.
And if anyone thinks this is in some way a criticism of Dave Mac, I'm afraid you are completely missing the point too!
Neil
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Okay okay. For the record I totally respect on-sighting and pretty much totally disdain headpointing (new routes / cutting edge excepted). But still, big numbers are pretty important, yes?? Forgive my throwaway comment, I was thinking of the Welsh boys when I wrote it but couldn't be arsed changing it. And yes the logical course of action for Dave now he's injured and repeated the hardest trad slab in the UK etc etc is to do more onsighting and push the boundaries of that.
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Wow! Well done Dave, it looks like an amazing route. A very interesting and considered post too.
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Forgive my throwaway comment, I was thinking of the Welsh boys when I wrote it ...
Clarify please.
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Forgive my throwaway comment, I was thinking of the Welsh boys when I wrote it but couldn't be arsed changing it.
Clarify please.
I.e. I was thinking I should mention them as also Britain's top tradsters, but was too lazy to change what I wrote.
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Christ!
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- Very good of Dave Mac to go down and do it. An impressive logistical as well as climbing effort. He really is Mr UK Trad now.
Hang on a second, Fiend. Are you honestly saying that the cream of UK trad is represented by pre-practise and pre-inspection? When the likes of Robins, McHaffie, El Mocho and a host of other supremely talented on sight climbers are quietly going about their thing?
Man, you are completely missing the point.
And if anyone thinks this is in some way a criticism of Dave Mac, I'm afraid you are completely missing the point too!
Neil
Word Neil, very good point.
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Christ!
Yes, my child?
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- Very good of Dave Mac to go down and do it. An impressive logistical as well as climbing effort. He really is Mr UK Trad now.
Hang on a second, Fiend. Are you honestly saying that the cream of UK trad is represented by pre-practise and pre-inspection? When the likes of Robins, McHaffie, El Mocho and a host of other supremely talented on sight climbers are quietly going about their thing?
Man, you are completely missing the point.
And if anyone thinks this is in some way a criticism of Dave Mac, I'm afraid you are completely missing the point too!
Neil
Hang a trout, if wasn't for people like Pearson and Macleod there wouldn't be these routes that people could go and onsight.
Great effort of Pearson for establishing the route and Macleod for repeating it. Inspires me to push that little bit harder.
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:bow: Great effort, especially when "injured".
Whats all the discontent about the grade anyway :shrug:?
EVERYONE (should) know that the grade given to a route by the FA, PARTICULARLY if its a headpoint, is a proposition of the on-sight grade (ditto for repeats if headpointed).
This does NOTHING to detract from James ascent in the slightest as acknowledged by Dave.
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At the end of the day, the grades are just numbers and keep climbers in idle chat between real experiences. What’s left are the climbs and the stories.
Please don't let this descend into yet another nasty grade bitch fest.
It would be a shame if our hard E grade climbs, which really are great masterpieces of rock climbs and stories, implode into a black hole of sensationalist rubbish headlines and witch-hunts on ukclimbing.com.
Let's not sink to that level please.
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True.
Let's not detract from the fact that it is still a supreme effort from both.
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I can't grade flour but that doen't mean that my new routes are any different than if I was the most reliable and accurate grading machine known to man; nor does it mean that I'm dishonest and seeking to play down the grade to inflate a leaky ego (or over grade, from perhaps font 6b+ to E3 to establish a 'wow what a cool dude' image).
I'm not stating the promise is Ex or the walk of like is Ey as I haven't been on either. I would however suggest that even if the grades originally given do settle down over time it would be wrong: on account of these two examples, to say that James deliberately overgrades rather that has has erred on two occasions. I would be interested to know what the consensus is on the grading of his other routes and let's not forget other notable pioneers have had routes substanitally down graded and not received the public attacks.
James Pearson, Like Dave Macloed, Dawes, Dunne etc are talented climbers who have pushed the boundary in a way that we would fear to dream of and when you're doing this you're inevitably going to get the odd grade wrong and perhaps substantially so. What is not in doubt is that James has climbed the lines that we can only hope to aspire to and I think that criticism of a few grades smack of sour grapes and allegations of dishonest over grading of worse.
I think I can recall seeing (on video of course) Chris Sharma saying that if he had to grade the Mandala he'd give it V16, now then given that this has settled at what V11? who'd going to be the first to weigh in and say the things about Sharma that are being said about James.
Slackline is spot on the grade is for a hypothetical onsight, EOTA waited what 20 years for the onsight as did many of the great grit routes of that decade, I'm fairly sure we'll have onsights of the walk of life etc in another 20 years and then we'll have a reliable yeardstick to assess the grade, but for the moment we have to say regardless of the grade a great effort on the part of the two ascentionists.
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good effort there by M-clowd. the only bit in his blog i don't really fathom is this bit:
The first reason the walk isn’t harder than E9 is there is no requirement to be fit. It’s possible to take both hands off on almost every move (not that you actually would, but the point is it’s not at all strenuous).
kinda implies that no off-vertical route can ever be harder than E9 just because its not a pumpfest, which just seems out of wack to me. imagine WOL with every hold half as big - you could still take hands off if your footwork was good enough, but it'd be harder than E9 shirley.
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good effort there by M-clowd. the only bit in his blog i don't really fathom is this bit:
The first reason the walk isn’t harder than E9 is there is no requirement to be fit. It’s possible to take both hands off on almost every move (not that you actually would, but the point is it’s not at all strenuous).
kinda implies that no off-vertical route can ever be harder than E9 just because its not a pumpfest, which just seems out of wack to me. imagine WOL with every hold half as big - you could still take hands off if your footwork was good enough, but it'd be harder than E9 shirley.
Well you could read that into it, but I doubt that was the point he was trying to make.
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Please don't let this descend into yet another nasty grade bitch fest.
Let's not sink to that level please.
^^^ What he said. And that includes throwaway accusations and bitching against other people too.
Thankfully most of the time on here there can be very useful and well-thought-out discussions of such matters, particularly when people remember the amount of variance and vagueness in such matters. As well as the SCIENCE behind it, of course ;).
One worthy comment from UKC though...
I wouldn't mind betting that one day in the far distant future WOL, EW and Rhapsody all settle at around about the same grade and that that grade is neither E9 nor E12.
...seems fair that if two grades seem a bit extreme either way, it's likely to be somewhere in between.
P.S. Just to reiterate about something I said earlier: I totally agree with Neil's point, that is my line of thinking too, any confusion about me thinking DM is all there is to trad climbing (and ignoring the onsight massive) is simply laziness in my posting, nothing else. I hope that is perfectly sodding clear now.
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Before James removed the pegs and added the direct start did this route get E8?
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yeah, "Dyer Straits" E8 6c wasn't it? Ian vickers route if IRC
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its remarkable how perceptions on grades must differ from person to person. reading pearson's blog, on paper you've got this old E8 route with pegs, given F8a+, so the pegs come out, some holds come off, you add a direct start that someone else tried and estimated at E10 on its own, (plus a different finish, do i remember that right?) and it all adds up to E9 thats about f8a+ according to Run-DMC. theres some wack math going on somewhere, like someone forgot to carry the 3. Was the original route at E8 ever repeated/confirmed?
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That was my thinking Dave. Either way I'm guessing it'll settle somewhere in the middle.
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Having tried the route in question, i don't think Dave's grade math is that far out, at least concerning the french grade anyway. It isn't a sustained route, especially for the iron-calved. I can totally see how James' direct start doesn't actually increase the french grade of the original line at all (the finish is identical). I'm not really qualified to comment on the E-grade having done nothing of similar style or difficulty.
Brilliant efforts by Dave and James both; I think Dave's comment that this isn't exactly James's usual forte is probably quite perceptive. With that in mind, I'm even more impressed by James's decision to remove the pegs from the original line. Now there's an ethical statement that I hope catches on.
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There are a few factors to consider: (ones i think are most important)
- The start has never really been discussed in detail by James in terms of difficulty (french grade etc), how hard is it? And my thoughts were always that it must be at least E10 or E11 in its own right to bump the original route up to E12??
- The original grade of the route in terms of difficulty (although it wasn't repeated, i suspect the state of the pegs played a major role, but how hard is 'the climbing' 8a+?)
- James' experience of climbing similar routes (Trauma is the nearest thing he has done off the grit IRC, but can you compare the two?)
- Dave's experience of climbing similar style routes i.e long mountain style trad, in a serious position, but possibly with lots of marginal gear, is 2nd to none (except for maybe Birkett)
- Due to Dave's experience you would have to say he has the volume of routes behind him to grade it in relation to more comparitive routes (interesting how he listed various routes he thought were harder and easier than it, where would it 'fit' on James' list?)
- Dave is a notoriously harsh grader, but seems to use historic routes from the past to grade in comparison to things he has repeated or put up (if 6 was 9 etc)
- Its a slab, very hard to grade the difficulty of something which when climbing you should feel quite relaxed on in terms of strenuousness
- repeating a route is essentially less stressful than the 1st ascent
Lots of potential reasons for the difference, but I'm inclined to trust the judgement of someone with the 'experience'. I remember James stating that he wasn't interested in repeating other peoples routes any more, and that he was more interested in climbing his own new routes. Thats all fair and well, but what do you use as a baseline to grade them against?
After all, its how everything is graded (on a spectrum/scale of difficulty), I for one compare my experience on routes graded the same, or similar, before deciding on how hard I think something is (of course there is an element of 'your experience on the route' to consider).
:-\ Maybe James will feel more inclined to try repeat Rhapsody or Echo Wall (better get the snow shovel out ready ;)) or some of Dave's or Birkett's other routes now to give him a broader range of comparitive routes.
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At the end of the day, the grades are just numbers and keep climbers in idle chat between real experiences. What’s left are the climbs and the stories.
Please don't let this descend into yet another nasty grade bitch fest.
There are other (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10492.0.html) threads (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10503.0/all.html) for all this speculation.
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I think maths or no maths, what Dave is saying is that is that it is harder than some routes (eg Holdfast), but easier than others (eg If 6 were 9).
Did somebody say here, or on UKC, that climbers at this level should have to do Indian Face before they should be allowed to give higher grades? I don't think this it true, as IF is clearly utterly horrendous (it seems like the three climbers who tried it almost accepted they might die. Is this right?) Just to see what Benchmark E9 is like. Or should it be entry-level, as it was the first - just like Gaia and EotA are not benchmark E8, they are the easy ones. But even trying it on a rope would probably give an idea of what E9 should feel like.
Agree with NCB and Stu L.
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Yo :jaw:
Go Dave, fookin' outstanding stuff. Keen to get a repeat in before it falls down? ;)
Grades, schmades. Tis a great line and a fine achievement by JP for the FA. Must admit I didn't expect a repeat quite so quickly!
Next.....??
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And I can't help but think after all this, Climb Magazine get their 'exclusive', The North Face are over the moon, Mick can whip up a 'debate' and show advertisers a healthy activity graph for January 09.
Then there's James, who bust his ass and scared himself shitless to climb a line that turned him on, but who, I imagine, is now wondering what it's all about.
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Then there's James, who bust his ass and scared himself shitless to climb a line that turned him on, but who, I imagine, is now wondering what it's all about.
Thats easy...
Anyway, then I had an epifany...
“Why dont I just forget about all this and go climbing?”
So I did! (http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/2008/11/its-amazing-at-just-how-much-crap-can.html)
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Kudos Dave, I'd seriously be cr*pping myself on there... That presumes I could even pull on!
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Did somebody say here, or on UKC, that climbers at this level should have to do Indian Face before they should be allowed to give higher grades? I don't think this it true, as IF is clearly utterly horrendous (it seems like the three climbers who tried it almost accepted they might die. Is this right?) Just to see what Benchmark E9 is like. Or should it be entry-level, as it was the first - just like Gaia and EotA are not benchmark E8, they are the easy ones. But even trying it on a rope would probably give an idea of what E9 should feel like.
I found this very interesting.
When I did the walk, I had Julian Lines and James McCaffie in my mind. They are the masters of this genre. I’m thinking now that Andy Nisbet might well be right when he commented in the Cairngorms guide that Britian’s hardest slab climb might be Icon of Lust.
As far as I know IoL is unrepeated and is, by all accounts, a jaw dropping line (as are many of JLs unrepeated slab routes). Maybe some of them need repeating, come spring?
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Good effort Dave Mac and interesting write up, comparisons etc.
This line jumped out at me though:
Certainly the walk felt about the same as leading VIII or IX onsight and was an easier and much shorter battle than Yo Bro a few weeks ago.
Seeing as plenty of the guys leading Scottish VIII on-sight are leading Trad E4 / F7a and no harder, I find this pretty hard to believe.
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I think he was referring to being used to the duration of time spent on routes rather than the actual difficulty?
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I think he was referring to being used to the duration of time spent on routes rather than the actual difficulty?
You're right. Damn my skim reading skills :-[
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When I did the walk, I had Julian Lines and James McCaffie in my mind. They are the masters of this genre. I’m thinking now that Andy Nisbet might well be right when he commented in the Cairngorms guide that Britian’s hardest slab climb might be Icon of Lust.
As far as I know IoL is unrepeated and is, by all accounts, a jaw dropping line (as are many of JLs unrepeated slab routes). Maybe some of them need repeating, come spring?
Am I the only one who thinks the concept of the line (no, not Julian) has become completely confused nowadays?
To get back to (my) dictionary definition corner for a moment, Cenotaph Corner is a line - as is Master's Edge. The Devil's Tower is covered in lines.
I think Lord of the Flies is a much better route than Cenotaph Corner - actually I'm lying, because I haven't done the Corner - but it isn't a line. It's a gap on a wall.
Icon of Lust is one of the most stupendous routes I have ever seen. A truly gobsmacking climb, linking occasional half-features in a huge blank face. And the location is the finest I've climbed on in the British mountains, with probably a 6 hour wait for help the penalty for a false move.
But lets face it, the hardest and one of the finest British slabs it may be, but it isn't actually a line!
And neither is the first section of Walk of Life - that's a face too, and a mighty impressive one at that, but it only really becomes a line when it joins the thin crack on Dyer Straits....
Anyone else with me on this?
Neil
ps. thanks for the earlier clarification, Fiend. I think we share the same viewpoint on this!
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so you're saying something has to be either a corner or the geometric opposite of a corner to be a "line"?
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IMO aretes are the only true lines. Well them and pure jamming cracks. :thumbsup:
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It is interesting to see the range of drivel on cocktalk, Mick Ryan's postings are predictable but Alan James posting that he doesn't understand how some one can make a garding error leads me to conclude that one of the following statements is probably true.
Alan James thinks he's never made a mistake,
That Alan James thinks that as he has established so many routes with 100% grading accuracy that there must be some mendacious reason for a few errors.
That Alan James doesn't understand a great deal about very much at all.
(ps deliberately sophistic posting)
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Good effort all round, awesome looking line. To my mind a true line is the most efficient, non-eliminate way of climbing a piece of rock. Discounting everything thats not a crack, corner or arete seems a tad restrictive. Just my opinion though.
btw, who/what/where is Icon of Lust? I must have missed the boat on that one completely and a cursory search turned up nowt.
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In the spirit of fun.
E9...
+1 natural variance in grades / difference between nu-route and 2nd ascent
+1 difference of trust in ballnuts / less gear
+1 likely to be proportionally harder onsight / overestimation of French grade / whatever you like
= E12
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I think I can recall seeing (on video of course) Chris Sharma saying that if he had to grade the Mandala he'd give it V16, now then given that this has settled at what V11? who'd going to be the first to weigh in and say the things about Sharma that are being said about James.
I seem to recall that it was said with his tongue firmly in his cheek.
Warning - while you were reading 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post
Bugger me! You guys type fast
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I think I can recall seeing (on video of course) Chris Sharma saying that if he had to grade the Mandala he'd give it V16, now then given that this has settled at what V11? who'd going to be the first to weigh in and say the things about Sharma that are being said about James.
I seem to recall that it was said with his tongue firmly in his cheek.
Warning - while you were reading 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post
Bugger me! You guys type fast
Yeah the sharma things bollocks. He was taking the piss.
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Am I the only one who thinks the concept of the line (no, not Julian) has become completely confused nowadays?
To get back to (my) dictionary definition corner for a moment, Cenotaph Corner is a line - as is Master's Edge. The Devil's Tower is covered in lines.
I think Lord of the Flies is a much better route than Cenotaph Corner - actually I'm lying, because I haven't done the Corner - but it isn't a line. It's a gap on a wall.
Icon of Lust is one of the most stupendous routes I have ever seen. A truly gobsmacking climb, linking occasional half-features in a huge blank face. And the location is the finest I've climbed on in the British mountains, with probably a 6 hour wait for help the penalty for a false move.
But lets face it, the hardest and one of the finest British slabs it may be, but it isn't actually a line!
And neither is the first section of Walk of Life - that's a face too, and a mighty impressive one at that, but it only really becomes a line when it joins the thin crack on Dyer Straits....
Anyone else with me on this?
Is this important at this point?
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btw, who/what/where is Icon of Lust? I must have missed the boat on that one completely and a cursory search turned up nowt.
Excerpts SMC Cairngorms - Loch Avon Basin - Shelterstone
Icon of Lust 115m E8 ***
FA 2003 June 24 J Line P Thorburn
Pitch 1 by J Lines L Hughes onsight 24 Jun 2001
A monumental voyage up the full height of the central slabs taking a direct line through realm of the Senses and L'elisir d' Amore
1 35m 6a a serious pitch......
2 25m 6c a brilliant pitch, desperate and bold.....
3 55m 6b Extremely bold a cool head required.....
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Is this important at this point?
No, of course it isn't Chris.
But the reference to Icon of Lust as a "jaw dropping line" when it actually isn't a line at all, did strike me as a bit strange.
Mind you, if you'd rather debate grades and crumbling reputations....
Neil
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I think I can recall seeing (on video of course) Chris Sharma saying that if he had to grade the Mandala he'd give it V16, now then given that this has settled at what V11? who'd going to be the first to weigh in and say the things about Sharma that are being said about James.
I seem to recall that it was said with his tongue firmly in his cheek.
Warning - while you were reading 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post
Bugger me! You guys type fast
Yeah the sharma things bollocks. He was taking the piss.
Really? Bugger if I hadn't had the subtitles turned off I would have realised.
Regardless it's quite common for the grade of a FA to be down graded without the first ascensionist, in effect being accused of being a liar, I wonder what makes James so different?
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Am I the only one who thinks the concept of the line (no, not Julian) has become completely confused nowadays?
I would say there's a difference between a line and a feature. Cenotaph corner is a feature and a line whereas Indian Face is more a line. :shrug:
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Indeed the bags under my eyes are a feature, the lines are to be found on my forehead.
Incidentally can I juest say Mick Ryan is seeking to hold back the tide with a typo.
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...
Regardless it's quite common for the grade of a FA to be down graded without the first ascensionist, in effect being accused of being a liar, I wonder what makes James so different?
The trouble is that the downgrading of the Promise was ridiculously high profile, The Groove was repeated with relative ease, and WoL was graded astronomically high that it was extremely well publicised. The Promise was high profile because the Yanks were ripping everything to shreds. The Groove wasn't even repeated properly (am I allowed to tick every route in the Peak which I can't physically climb? That would mean I can finish all my lists!), and WoL was extremely hyped because of the astronomical grade Keenus gave it. Let's not forget that forging new ground is a million times harder than repeating it. I know it gets mentioned a lot, but Brad Pitt was 8a+/8b(?) originally. It's now often considered 7c!
I don't think James is specifically overgrading routes, but I personally would like to see him repeating a few more hard routes which have had their grades settle (If Six Was Nine springs to mind). I haven't heard about him repeating anything recently (specifically routes).
Anyway, that's just my 2p's worth. I don't climb hard enough to really be able to form an opinion properly. And I don't think it's very nice to start defaming James' name just because of a few routes. He's getting out and doing stuff I can't even comprehend!
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I haven't heard about him repeating anything recently (specifically routes).
Onsighting End Of The Affair was the last thing I heard about. Not too shabby. ;)
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Neil, I agree. There you go. Haven't seen either of the routes in question in the flesh, so can't comment on whether whatever 'line' they follow would make my jaw drop. I do know there aren't any lines on Raven tor though. ;)
I don't think anyone is 'defaming' James as a climber, more the publicity resulting from claiming the hardest route in the uk, ever. That has backfired badly, though may not have been entirely his wish or making, who knows. I'm sure he is currently understanding why so many high profile climbers go through a stage of not grading their stuff other than to offer a 'hardest I've done yet'. Let the chattering classes decide...
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Is this important at this point?
No, of course it isn't Chris.
But the reference to Icon of Lust as a "jaw dropping line" when it actually isn't a line at all, did strike me as a bit strange.
Mind you, if you'd rather debate grades and crumbling reputations....
OK, if we want to draw away from the main topic, here we go. IMO Any climb follows a line, be it a distinct feature, a vague ripple, a line of holds, a series of dinks up a blank slab, a collection of dots and hyphens or just climing absolute blankness. Look in any guidebook and the diagrams are covered in lines, even if there is nothing on the rock itself that distinguishes the climb form the rock.
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Brad Pitt was 8a+/8b(?) originally. It's now often considered 7c!
Bad example - a new sequence was found and its now climbed a totally different way.
I do know there aren't any lines on Raven tor though. ;)
What about Mecca? thats a brilliant line.
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And the line of the
crag peak, Powerband! :whistle:
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putp - LINE!
revelations - LINE!
weedkiller traverse - LINE!
oomt - LINE!
(L1, R1) L3, R12, L14, R14 - LINE!
I could go on.
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Yeah, stop Tor bashing Adam, perhaps we just need to foster your talent and nuture your relationship so that you too can enjoy the summer.
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Brad Pitt was 8a+/8b(?) originally. It's now often considered 7c!
Bad example - a new sequence was found and its now climbed a totally different way.
Actually I think that's a perfect example, a new sequence, finding a new hold all radically change the grade but don't invalidate the 'correctness' of the initial proposition.
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Not sure whether Sharma was being entirely tongue in cheek re the Mandala. At the time didn't he feel that it was the hardest thing he had ever done? From what I recall one of the repeat ascentionists (David Graham?) used a photographer's step-ladder and found a decent hold that was invisible from below and enabled a different sequence to be used to Sharma's rather heinous original one (which, whilst not V16, may have been a damn sight harder than its current grade).
I must admit that, after the whole The Promise and The Groove affairs, I had regarded The Walk of Life's grading with something like foreboding. If only because of the vast amount of fuck-witted armchair pontificating that I knew would pour in ukc.
Now, what I do at the crag with can barely be called climbing, only in the same way that music is "organised sound", but even I know that judging the difficulty of a climb is a horrendously inexact art (there are f6c's that I will never do and f7b+'s that I have done). A climber's internal grading scale depends utterly on their personal experience of the various accepted benchmarks. And, given the vagueries of day-to-day performance and the disparities between a climber's strengths and weaknesses, any pretence of an objective assessment is ludicrous. Thus, criticising a first ascentionist, who seemed to genuinely go to the brink during his efforts, for a difference in grading from the repeat ascentionist seems sililarly misguided. Doesn't it occur to the more strident voices on ukc that, if James was a genuinely mendacious character and a gifted actor, there would be easier and less lethal ways for him to make a living? Nearly dieing and emotionally torturing both himself and his girlfriend seems a high price to pay for some 5.10's and a cover photo.
Frankly, from my position as yet another fuck-witted armchair critic (it's a tough job... ), it seems that this affair may partly result from how easy James found Equilibrium, a route lest we forget that neither Team USA or Dave McCleod could manage. Unsurprisingly given his bouldering gifts, James found that brief sequence of powerful moves above a big cam (admittedly with a ground scraping fall) less taxing than a prolonged, mentally intense battle with a long slab. So, unless he wanted to retrospectively downgrade every Peak test-piece from Equilibrium downwards, he had no choice based upon his experience of The Walk of Life but to give it the grade he did. Would the climbing public prefer it if he had lied or made a lame attempt to second guess the likely preferences of any second ascentionists?
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I agreed with two 3rd's of your post.....however the last point i'm afraid seems flawed.....
Surely routes which suit your style will feel 'easier' than routes which do not, hence you will always subconsiously treat these routes as more difficult.
I.e. compare a short bouldery 8a+ (PUTP / Caviar) with say a long 8a+ (Supercool/Urgent Action), very diferent routes, same french grade........experience of each route very different, experience of climbers very different depending on their preference to short or long routes/bouldery or endurance style.
Are they any less 8a+ than each other?
No. They are just too routes of the same grade on a specturm of style.
I believe the overiding factor is that James hasn't climbed enough simliar routes too WOL to 'accurately' grade it with a trad or sport grade and so is comparing it to other routes based on purely his 'experience', conciously or subconsciously.
Therefore its inevitable that the 2nd ascentionist with his vast experience of similar routes is going to offer a more 'accurate' grade of the difficulty, after all his experience will have been different to James being a repeat and all, knowing James had taken a big fall/placed more gear.
Just because something isn't your style and you found it hard, doesn't mean you take an inflated grade for it....???!!!!
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Therefore its inevitable that the 2nd ascentionist with his vast experience of similar routes is going to offer a more 'accurate' grade of the difficulty, after all his experience will have been different to James being a repeat and all, knowing James had taken a big fall/placed more gear.
Thing is, is DMC immune to the downgrading whiplash phenomonon that afflicts virstually everyone else? when something it suspected or perceived to be overgraded, when the first repeat comes it often tends to go too far the other direction.
For example, Carmen Picasso given E9 initially, when it first got repeated it was suggested it was only E7, yet ended up these days being E8. happens a lot with boulder problems too, see loads of examples around.
So what i'm saying is the fact that it was originally E12 a contibuter to the big downgrade? If james had given it E10, would DMC even have downgraded it at all, or would he have said "thats ballpark, close enough for jazz" and moved on?
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I'm interested in this line debate.
In my opinion there are lines and there are Lines and I think the two are being confused. To me a Line is a feature on the rock, be it a scoop, rib, arete, corner, crack etc etc, that instantly catches the climbers eye and begs to be climbed. You all know the feeling when you walk up to a crag for the first time and spot a feature on the walk in which begs to be climbed.
I suppose things like The Master's Edge, Cenotaph Corner, The Groove, Archangel and the other Stanage aretes in that area are the best example of lines that I can think of. To be less corner/arete-centric I suppose other awesome lines would be South Ridge Direct on Cir Mhor, especially the S-Crack and Y-Crack pitches. You can see those bad boys from halfway down the fucking valley and I knew we were going to climb them before we even got to the crag and flipped open the guidebook.
Then there are lines in a guidebook showing where all the different routes go.
The difference being is that Lines are those prominent features which attract your attention and you'll risk your neck to get up (for me the epitome of this was Archangel) and lines are just, well, lines on the topo.
Because of the nature of blank slabs I think its hard to see the Lines there because there are no obvious features that stand out. I suppose the Line factor comes in when it's particularly blank and there's only really one line of holds which will get you up there.
This is what makes the difference between Moffatt's "Master's Wall" and Dawes' "Indian Face". Jerry broke away from the Line when it became too tough. Johnny finished the job and stuck to the Line (not a dig at JM).
The line of Yorkshire (for me) - High Noon! Look at the fucker! It's crazy!
This is why I find it hard to get overly inspired on the Catwalk. There just don't seem to be that many Lines there that are as impressive as those found on grit. Shit I'm going to get eaten alive for that comment.
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I'm not having a go or making a personal attack but I think your reference to different styles of sports routes viz a viz grades is an error that sits at the heart of this debate, a sport route is just that; different trad routes get a different grade because of their differences eg E5 5c could be a bold slab or a 90 degree overhang covered in jugs.
The degree of experience of climbing similar routes to one which one is proposing a grade for is certainly something that will have an affect on how accurately one grades, BUT (and here's the bit that I don't want to be taken as a personal attack) when you climb something that ins't your style and something that you find hard you shouldn't take an inflated grade but if you're the first ascensionsit you have to give the route the grade that you felt was appropriate.
For example, I did a problem at the Roaches 'a modest proposal' on a warm day with showers of drizzle and thought V4/5 was appropriate, this is now in the bouldering guide at Font 7a (so V6/7?) I was at least a grade out as I didn't think I was climbing well when I did it and conditions were crap. If I do my project and feel that it's E5 then I'll give it E5 and if it gets repeated and down graded or upgraded so be it, but no one will be able to tell me that it didn't feel E5 when I did it.
The E grade includes a number of elements and one of those is a subjective mental assessment of how it feels, given this there's bound to be variation and these variations should not be taken as anything other than natural. We have so far wantonly insufficient evidence to say that James is absolutely wrong and that the grades are outside the expected range of variation.
I know the promise has had a large number of ascents but consider this, 'team america' purportedly said that the promise was a grade harder than end of the affair so a downgrade from E10 to E9 seems to be nothing to shout about, particularly when the use of mats and bounce testing the gear is concerned. As for the 'welsh, ground up crew' being the cynic I might suggest that the downgrading could be seen as having an agenda behind it, particularly when the use of the ladder and numerous pads was concerned.
It is a great shame that the debate is skewed by a small number of people saying James is taking the piss, deliberately over grading due to a huge ego and to make money rather than saying, wow the boy's been busy and climbed some great lines and you know what, so what if he makes the odd mistake with the grade.
The actions of Mick Ryan, Alan James et al just strike me as extreme double standards with a nasty whiff of jealousy and hypocricy.
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For example, I did a problem at the Roaches 'a modest proposal' on a warm day with showers of drizzle and thought V4/5 was appropriate, this is now in the bouldering guide at Font 7a (so V6/7?) I was at least a grade out as I didn't think I was climbing well when I did it and conditions were crap.
Yor undergrading was due to the superb spotting and beta giving abilities of your spotting team. No-one who has done it since has had such a great advantage.
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some sense talked there by slope (...a refreshing change.....).
Will, i think you're just using "line" as a synonym for "feature", which is fine, but seems to defeat the point of having a new word for it. I find a complete lack of feature a line too - take that big flat wall project at lawrencefield, this is line of the century, featureless. hence why WOL is considered a line.
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I find the most inspiring lines the ones that hint at a suggestion of possibility when the features are all long gone. A few potential edges or a vague ripple after the features run out. Like Thing on a Spring, or the Scoop Pitch on The Hammer.
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For example, I did a problem at the Roaches 'a modest proposal' on a warm day with showers of drizzle and thought V4/5 was appropriate, this is now in the bouldering guide at Font 7a (so V6/7?) I was at least a grade out as I didn't think I was climbing well when I did it and conditions were crap.
Yor undergrading was due to the superb spotting and beta giving abilities of your spotting team. No-one who has done it since has had such a great advantage.
I remember your beta was something like 'pull harder'....
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Hell, it worked!
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Yeah, stop Tor bashing Adam, perhaps we just need to foster your talent and nuture your relationship so that you too can enjoy the summer.
To be fair, Adam was smiling as he Tor-bashed!
Anyway, unlike the gritmeister, I am really rather fond of my local heap of occasionally tottering, seepy limestone. But does it actually have lines? He may not have been there, ;) but I think JB is actually right! The only lines I can think of, from R to L, are these:-
PUTP (given that it follows a vague natural feature)
Little Extra
Mecca
Revelations
Top half of Prow
That E4 6b groove over on the left, which is now completely covered in ivy.
Definitely not lines:-
Toilet
Sardine
Chimes
Indecent
Crucifixion
etc.
(Though some of these are quite good, allegedly)
Oh, and of course the Tor does have one of the finest natural lines on Peak Limestone - the late, lamented Cream Team Special.
Now, isn't that more fun than debating whether one of the best looking new routes climbed in the UK in the last decade is E8, 9, 10, 11, 12 or 13?
Neil
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I don't think anyone is 'defaming' James as a climber, more the publicity resulting from claiming the hardest route in the uk, ever. That has backfired badly, though may not have been entirely his wish or making, who knows. I'm sure he is currently understanding why so many high profile climbers go through a stage of not grading their stuff other than to offer a 'hardest I've done yet'. Let the chattering classes decide...
Sorry, back on topic! I sense a lot of wilful avoidance of frank discussion here, similar to The Groove & The Promise.
Adam makes what I feel is the most important point. That is, that irrespective of the frankly meaningless E9 vs E12 armchair debate there is the matter of "World's Hardest Traditional Route" (http://www.climbmagazine.com/PearsonWorldsHardestTradRoute.aspx (http://www.climbmagazine.com/PearsonWorldsHardestTradRoute.aspx)) vs "Scottishman's short break to Devon". Now I know that MacLeod is shit-hot but even so I would hardly have expected him to repeat genuinely the world's hardest route in three days, carrying an injury and proclaiming to not suit the style. Especially given his protracted battles with his own (easier?) routes. It is this side of things, over and above the grade, where things don't stack up. The media presented this route as making huge leaps forward in every aspect of rock climbing skill and boldness, part of a new generation of peerless super routes. It would appear that it is of a similar difficulty to some routes done in the late '80's and early '90's.
There is a bit of a tendency to gloss over all this with platitudes lauding the quality of the route. As far as I'm concerned that sort of thing goes without saying, just look at the pictures, you can tell its absolutely amazing. But the fact is that the media i.e. Climb magazine was guilty of selling faulty goods. I strongly suspect that the blame lies more at their door than with James. Letting it slide because the route is awesome and the FA is a nice chap is hardly holding them to account! That said I don't read or buy mags these days so this is more of a principled objection than a practical one.
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That said I don't read or buy mags these days so this is more of a principled objection than a practical one.
Therein possibly lies the rub? A lot less people buy the mags for news these days, hence perhaps they need to sensationalise ascents and bandy about big numbers such as this in order to shift copy? Maybe the guilt lies firmly with us? Just a thought.
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Brad Pitt was 8a+/8b(?) originally. It's now often considered 7c!
Bad example - a new sequence was found and its now climbed a totally different way.
Actually I think that's a perfect example, a new sequence, finding a new hold all radically change the grade but don't invalidate the 'correctness' of the initial proposition.
Sloper understands!
Just because something isn't your style and you found it hard, doesn't mean you take an inflated grade for it....???!!!!
I think Sloper's point is that James graded it for how hard it felt. It felt like it deserved E12. He didn't give inflate the grade. It's just that it's not his strength.
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Brad Pitt was 8a+/8b(?) originally. It's now often considered 7c!
Bad example - a new sequence was found and its now climbed a totally different way.
Actually I think that's a perfect example, a new sequence, finding a new hold all radically change the grade but don't invalidate the 'correctness' of the initial proposition.
Sloper understands!
Just because something isn't your style and you found it hard, doesn't mean you take an inflated grade for it....???!!!!
I think Sloper's point is that James graded it for how hard it felt. It felt like it deserved E12. He didn't give inflate the grade. It's just that it's not his strength.
Come on, I mean James comes accross as a nice bloke, talented climber, and the rest, but he clearly couldn’t grade a sausage (unlike me, I just coudn’t climb one). I mean E12, what the chuff does that mean anyway? He’s in grading lala land, and anyone who thinks otherwise is there with him.
I think it’s important to qualify that this issue is really a footnote to the main event –which is getting out and going climbing lots, and fair play to JP and DMC for doing so at the top end. A lot.
My main gripe is with the state of the magazines these days, especially climb, which has about as much style and substance as a cheap brick. Loved the old OTE mimimalist front covers, the only thing like that today is Summit. Also, I think the Americans do a much better job with Rock and Ice and Climbing. Where are we going wrong?
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Great effort of Pearson for establishing the route and Macleod for repeating it. Inspires me to push that little bit harder.
And Vickers? Did I miss something?
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Did somebody say here, or on UKC, that climbers at this level should have to do Indian Face before they should be allowed to give higher grades? I don't think this it true, as IF is clearly utterly horrendous (it seems like the three climbers who tried it almost accepted they might die. Is this right
I was with Johnny that day, in fact my crappy camera was the only one at the crag that day- the other photos were staged.
I thought he might die. Even more concerning, I thought he might land on me. It looked horrific.
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I was with Johnny that day, in fact my crappy camera was the only one at the crag that day- the other photos were staged.
I thought he might die. Even more concerning, I thought he might land on me. It looked horrific.
Fucking hell, you get around a bit ;)
Sounds horrific!
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It looks to me that James P does not enjoy climbing trad, his interviews are filled with talk of nightmares and sleepless nights and films of him climbing are scary to watch he seldom looks in control of his nerves. Maybe he does it more for a personal challenge to get over his fear? Also he certainly has climbed less hard trad than many other climbers who have not reached/claimed e10 let alone e11. Its possible James P did over grade his problems for publicity and personal gain however I think its more likely that he did it mistakenly. His peer group, many of whom are UKB members who often make the most interesting and insightful comments, have perhaps failed to question his experience to allow him to claim e12. If mistakes have been made I don't think they were made in a vacuum, James P is clearly an amazing climber though he may have been let down by a obsequious peer group and a very culpable hotaches team and climbing media?
However Dave M seems to relish his climbing and seemingly approaches his climbs more thoughtfully, he rarely looks out of control possibly because of his meticulous planning. Though he let the E11 grade claim to come from the media whilst keeping his reputation clean, maybe this was done slightly cynically much in the way he writes about having just climbed James P's 'hardest ever trad route'.
Je nais pas pissed.
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I was with Johnny that day, in fact my crappy camera was the only one at the crag that day- the other photos were staged.
I thought he might die. Even more concerning, I thought he might land on me. It looked horrific.
Fucking hell, you get around a bit ;)
Sounds horrific!
Oh yes, I'm an old fart really! (Dodgy elbows at mo BTW otherwise would be arranging some climbing.)
Quite an impressive sight really (Johnny's route, not my elbows). He went for it in the end, and you can tell when someone's totally committed and at their limit. Also stressful as you really don't want to see someone land at your feet .. Never seen commitment like that, before or since.
In respect of JP, without knowing the guy it seems more likely that without a great deal of routing experience to draw on he should grade quite subjectively, rather than cynically. The more experience, the easier it is to separate the absolute difficulty from the subjective experience of the occasion, surely?
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It just appears that James must be much better at climbing than he is at grading! Its not just the E grade he applied to his experience on a route that has been out some of 'tech' grades are way out as well such as The Promise, 8a down to 7b/7b+. If that is in fact the difficulty of this route is doable by a lot of people. He also gave a new boulder problem in Wales 8a and it turned out to be about 7A+ which is a massive difference!
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Its possible James P did over grade his problems for publicity and personal gain however I think its more likely that he did it mistakenly.
Well exactly. Deliberate over-grading or mistaken mis-grading?? To me it is simpler and more sensible to assume the latter, people simply get things wrong.
Never attribute to malice what is more readily explained by ignorance etc etc.
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Further to my last reply, I've re-read DM's blog post. As I read it he too seemed sold on the idea of this being the hardest route in the world:
Last Autumn James Pearson made an inspired first ascent of The Walk of Life.......By giving his new route the gobsmackingly high grade of E12 7a, James made a strong statement that he felt he had broken into an entirely new level of world class rock climbing. I couldn’t wait to try the climb and find out just how impossibly difficult an E12 would be.......But although the grade indicated it was the hardest climb in the world, it was still a slab, and even if I could just do a few moves on it, it would be inspiring and good learning for me, but not too stressful on my elbow.
That tallies with my previous understanding. How was it possible for the route to be presented in this way?
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Further to my last reply, I've re-read DM's blog post. As I read it he too seemed sold on the idea of this being the hardest route in the world:
Last Autumn James Pearson made an inspired first ascent of The Walk of Life.......By giving his new route the gobsmackingly high grade of E12 7a, James made a strong statement that he felt he had broken into an entirely new level of world class rock climbing. I couldn’t wait to try the climb and find out just how impossibly difficult an E12 would be.......But although the grade indicated it was the hardest climb in the world, it was still a slab, and even if I could just do a few moves on it, it would be inspiring and good learning for me, but not too stressful on my elbow.
That tallies with my previous understanding. How was it possible for the route to be presented in this way?
May I suggest you re-read the whole article as I think you've mis-interpreted this.
These are Dave's comments on the route at the start of the thread thus chronologically they preceed his ascent and are based on the medias (Climb/D Simmonite?) reporting WOL as the hardest route in the world. On his practise and headpoint he gained his own knowledge of the technicallity and danger involved in the route and then offered his opinion on the grade for an on-sight at the end of the article.
Quoting needs to be done in context otherwise it gives a false impression that can then be perpetuated.
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This is just more hype from DMac. Who goes on "the hardest climb in the world" carrying an injury?
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This is just more hype from DMac.
Actions speak louder than hype.
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I applaud his actions. It is the point he makes about being injured that I find strange.
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a very culpable hotaches team and climbing media?
'Culpable videocide, m' Lud?'
Hmm.
Certainly charges that could not be levelled against the 'Copley Two'.
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"Thermodynamics is a funny subject. The first time you go through it, you don't understand it at all. The second time you go through it, you think you understand it, except for one or two small points. The third time you go through it, you know you don't understand it, but by that time you are so used to it, it doesn't bother you any more. " (quote A. Sommerfeld)
Now read it again and replace thermodynamics by grading...
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Further to my last reply, I've re-read DM's blog post. As I read it he too seemed sold on the idea of this being the hardest route in the world:
Last Autumn James Pearson made an inspired first ascent of The Walk of Life.......By giving his new route the gobsmackingly high grade of E12 7a, James made a strong statement that he felt he had broken into an entirely new level of world class rock climbing. I couldn’t wait to try the climb and find out just how impossibly difficult an E12 would be.......But although the grade indicated it was the hardest climb in the world, it was still a slab, and even if I could just do a few moves on it, it would be inspiring and good learning for me, but not too stressful on my elbow.
That tallies with my previous understanding. How was it possible for the route to be presented in this way?
May I suggest you re-read the whole article as I think you've mis-interpreted this.
These are Dave's comments on the route at the start of the thread thus chronologically they preceed his ascent and are based on the medias (Climb/D Simmonite?) reporting WOL as the hardest route in the world. On his practise and headpoint he gained his own knowledge of the technicallity and danger involved in the route and then offered his opinion on the grade for an on-sight at the end of the article.
Quoting needs to be done in context otherwise it gives a false impression that can then be perpetuated.
Sorry my good man, I think you've mis-interpreted me! Perhaps I should have said "How was it possible that the route was presented in this way by the media in the first place?"
Really I was using DM's quotes to demonstrate that this prior to his repeat then the (widely held) perception was that this was the hardest route in the world. So given your first sentence we actually agree on this. This understood, then the rest of your post is irrelevant.
I admit it was a roundabout way of trying to raise a bit of useful discussion. Perhaps a direct question is better: how is it that a route can be claimed and publicised as far and away the hardest thing since sliced bread when it isn't? And yes I do think its useful to discuss it because otherwise what's to stop us getting a new "hardest boiled egg" every month until the end of time?
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Has this not blown over yet?
:yawn:
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He also gave a new boulder problem in Wales 8a and it turned out to be about 7A+ which is a massive difference!
what?
:o
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He also gave a new boulder problem in Wales 8a and it turned out to be about 7A+ which is a massive difference!
what?
:o
I read a story in the off-piste guide for Font that Godoffe spent ages working a new problem, it was a dyno and when he finally did it he gave it 7c and thought it was hard for the grade. He told his mate about the problem but not the grade. Later that week he bumped into said mate who congratulated him on his nice new 6c. He missed an obvious heel hook.
It happens.
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no problemo.
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It looks to me that James P does not enjoy climbing trad, his interviews are filled with talk of nightmares and sleepless nights and films of him climbing are scary to watch he seldom looks in control of his nerves. Maybe he does it more for a personal challenge to get over his fear? Also he certainly has climbed less hard trad than many other climbers who have not reached/claimed e10 let alone e11.
However Dave M seems to relish his climbing and seemingly approaches his climbs more thoughtfully, he rarely looks out of control possibly because of his meticulous planning.
Have you seen Committed vol.1? You get to compare and contrast them both on Trauma. I wouldn't say James comes off badly, in fact I think it was Grimer who summarised the whole film as James vs Dave. Just when you think James has won he gets burnt off though...
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no problemo.
makes me think of
(http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/070503/scifigallery/terminator_l.jpg)
Reckon you could rock the look Nibile.
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that's a great compliment that i proudly accept.
hasta la vista, baby. ;)
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Sorry my good man, I think you've mis-interpreted me! Perhaps I should have said "How was it possible that the route was presented in this way by the media in the first place?"
Fairy-muff, I'm not very good at reading between lines :P
No harm done I hope :hug:
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He also gave a new boulder problem in Wales 8a and it turned out to be about 7A+ which is a massive difference!
I should really keep out of this as I'm way too busy with work, but thought this was worth posting.
The problem in question was climbed after james had just "retro ;)" flashed (yet another style to argue the toss over) Diesel Power. It took him a few tries and he said it felt harder than DP but was unsure since it was end of the day and he was tired, thus didnt name or grade it.
regarding james' new thing left of diesel power. james did diesel power, possibly the easiest i've ever seen anyone climb anything. then turned his attention to the thing to the left while waiting for me to string 2 moves together. his words went something like "this can't be a project it's piss, i'll have to speak to panton"...
He emailed Si P a few days later to ask if it had been done before, and when asked by Si about the difficulty, compared it to DP at around 8a. James and I then went to Asia... info was posted as news on NWB... problem downgraded... big fuss...
Ok, time to leave my comfy armchair and get back to work :wall:.
Enjoy,
Emily
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I think James can be excused the cromlech problem. He's so good at doing hard problems quickly or flashing them i can understand why he graded that thing wrong.
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I think we'd all rather be shit hot at climbing than shit hot at grading.
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I think we'd all rather be shit hot at climbing than shit hot at grading.
:agree:
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http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2009/01/more-thoughts-from-devon.html (http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2009/01/more-thoughts-from-devon.html)
More interesting (some very true) word from Dave.
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What part do physical attributes play at these grades, I ask because E5 is where I peaked? Are James and Dave similar in build, weight etc. Personally I could only ever see grades as a guide unless every climber was the same height, weight etc, I can't think of any other sport where grade alone is the deciding factor, there would either be a time or subjective (ie judges) aspect, then again those are "competitions" and it isn't Dave v James.
From the video Walk of Life to me seemed to be more slots than anything, if you've four pork sausages for fingers then are you not going to find this harder/make more effort than someone with hands you mistake for a those of a five year old. Two climbs spring to mind, in Dosage 5 the Meltdown/Beth Rodden, can't see many men stepping up to do that as finger size looked all important, so 8c for her becomes 9a for someone with bigger hands.Pete Whittaker/Dynamics of Change, unless someone finds a new sequence I think you'll struggle to do this without yoga lessons, those climbs are nearly body specific so how can you grade them for the average man?
To me how James and Dave write about the climb and their "experience" makes sense to me, unless you have their body(fingers, length of arms, weight, size of feet etc) you'll never climb something with the same amout of effort they have, by the time you factor in everything else (friction, wind etc) it's their experience in a unique moment of time really.
Dom
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bigd can you please stop talking sense. how else are we supposed to have grade arguments about things we've never even seen in the flesh let alone tried
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I've seen what is now walk of life in the flesh. and then ran away. fast.
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Same here Chris, I,ve abbed down this line and i couldn,t see what a mere mortal would call holds on it. Also the last 100ft is effectively vertical, I would be interested to see what grade DM would have given had he taken a leader fall.
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It was howling wind, horizontal rain and raging sea when i went for a look. A wild and scary place.
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Poor footage now up here http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/ (http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/)
Only two of them at the crag.....
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God thats a long pitch. Mental.
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Poor footage now up here http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/ (http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/)
Only two of them at the crag.....
The youtube link has an HD option. Still the same distant camera angle, unfortunately:
http://snipurl.com/acbiu (http://snipurl.com/acbiu)
J
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http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html (http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html)
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good post there. although reading some of the vitriol people are going and posting on james blog comments recently about all this is makes you ashamed to be a climber at times.
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Good post indeed. Some good science going on there.
A lot of people are idiots and trying to create something out of nothing. Simple explanations work the best in this case.
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Yeah I particularly like how he explained pulling E12 from his arse.
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good post there. although reading some of the vitriol people are going and posting on james blog comments recently about all this is makes you ashamed to be a climber at times.
Any other threads/climbers/ascents springing to mind?
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I recall Dunne's reputation taking a bit of a battering over Partian Shot, but that was before the internet,
Then there was the 'downgrading' of that thing left of Golliath by Rockfax even though it was reputedly un-repeated.
In the internet era I can't remember anyone getting the level of abuse that's been directed at James, after all we're not questioning his integrity hear are we, it's not as if he claimed a route in the UK when his supposed belayer was actually in Australia?
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I do not think James Pearson is a bad person a liar or anything other than a climber who got it wrong and is digging himself out of it.
http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/ (http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/)
How many pads did it take to reduce an E12 to E9? None. What it took was a respectful approach to climbing that took into account multiple E9/E10 ascents of different styles of trad climbing. I don't think there is any reason to call Pearson a liar, it just his grading basis is almost tautological.
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To extend on what Rich Draws said; this is what i think, right or wrong its just an opinion and i'm bored at work. Sorry if this is old ground..
With regard to the Promise i thought the issue was really the font grade of the route, not the E grade as this was bound to be different due to the pads and faith in the gear.
Font 8a to 7b+. 'Conditions dependent' of course it is but he must have had some good conditions on one of the 10 days he tried the route. I suppose this comes down to being shit at grading. Fair enough.
walk of life E12; I just think James was incredibly nieve and perhaps, and dare i say it a little arrogant even if he didn't mean to be(i'm sure he didn't). Before you who know him well shoot me down all i mean is he didn't seem to place his route into context with other hard non gritstone routes such as Birkets If six was nine, confirmed at E9, Fr8a+ climbing with an unthinkable fall. I really dont think relating the difficulty of WOL to his hard grit routes is relevant simply because the style of the route is so different; big long pitch on edges, if anything, more akin to slate than grit perhaps. Perhaps James just isn't used to this sort of climbing(relatively speaking) and not as good at it as the Grit and bouldering. Of course thats ok, i am just suprised in view of this that he wasn't a little more conservative with the grading. It seems to me that Dave Mac is simply more qualified to grade it accurately just as James would be if Dave Mac did a super new route on the grit. I'm not sure if this post actually went anywhere, so appologies in advance.
This ain't an anonomous dig at james, i am just discussing the issue. The biggest shame is of course that all this has overshadowed the obviously awesome route and i'm sure everyone(esp James) is gettin a little tired of it now.
thats me lot, i will probably regret being bored at work and getting sucked in.....ah well
Jon ratcliffe
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thats me lot, i will probably regret being bored at work and getting sucked in.....ah well
Jon ratcliffe
You make it sound like this is the first time you have been bored and sucked in at work Jon.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=330692&v=1#x4878390 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=330692&v=1#x4878390)
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Ha!! You're good Adam! :guilty:I guess some of us don't learn eh? Well i didn't mean too, anyways i simply wanted to raise the points about the grit route comparisons, etc. and at work i have the time. (shit i'm justifying myself...) Anyways, i thought they were valid points(i'm doing it again) to raise in this disussioninvolving James's blog. At the end of the day we're all on here cos we give a shit one way or another and have an opinion. Am i really qualified to comment? (i don't know James and i certainly ain't been on the routes.Knowing people who have doesn't really cut it i suppose). I guess not. Are most folk on this forum? I have no idea. Does it make any real difference to what we do and our climbing? No. I do think though that to have a discussion in a pub or on here it is healthy to have a spectrum of opinion, a little like politics though hopefully we don't take ourselves too seriously at the end of the day. Speakin of which, it's been a long one...
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Erm, in retrospect, did i get prematurely defensive there, probably.
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Question about The Walk of Life
The route Dyer Straights {E8 6b} was climbed by climbing the arete to 2 pegs at 60ft. From there the route sweeps leftwards and upwards following 13 pegs to the top. James basically missed out the arete with a direct start ie. straght up the middle of the face. So in other words he added 70ft of climbing to the hard climbing of Dyer Straights. The first trustworthy gear on the route is at 45ft and the climbing is F7a, i don't know anything about the gear after that. As James removed the 13 pegs its going to make the climbing a damned sight harder placing the gear on the lead as apposed to clipping the pegs on the lead. To my relatively inexperienced climbing mind add the first bit to the second bit and you come up with something harder and more dangerous than E9 6c. Another curious thing about the original route {Dyer Straights} is that Ian Vickers the first and only ascentionist gave it a technical grade of 6b. Could someone make this clearer to me as the upper end grades confuse me.
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...I'm off for a quick wink
... when i becomes a
///winker
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Bloody hell...... i was hoping for a sensible answer, instead i get the Riddler
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There does seem to be a trend of "grade narrowing" at the top end. i feel others are aware of this - the new stanage guide describes the hard routes on Marble wall as "showing just how far the grade of E8 can go".
As for walk of life - we have two ascents and two grades. wait for another 10 ascents or so and we may have that wonderful thing. A concensus grade (how long would we have to wait for that?)
A question which may god knows who may have the experience to answer. How does walk of life compare to the classic of hard slabs the Indian Face?
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i forgot to say that they are both thoroughly impressive efforts. :jaw: