UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: butterworthtom on May 19, 2009, 09:51:32 pm
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I was thinking of investing in Antihydral, after doing a quick search people seem to have had good and bad experiences with it. My tips get greasy when climbing and long problems can be difficult purely cause of sweaty tips by the end. I have pretty soft finger skin despite climbing about 3 years, i dont tend to get flappers or splits or anything.
Would antihydral be of much use to me??
What are the positives and negatives of using it?
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+ve
Harder Less Sweaty Tips
-ve
splits if used incorrectly
dry fire/glassy tips
I've found it useful when my skins really thin and weepy just to give me an extra day or two on a trip. However, I went away, used it a bit and now have massive white circles on my tips, much like just getting out of a bath, only I haven't.
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I got massive white circles after coming back from a recent font trip, they looked a bit like blisters but weren't filled with fluid or anything. It just seemed to be down to excessive abuse.
What is correct antihydral use?? If I bought some is there an information leaflet inside about how much it should be used?
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In german yes! I'm sure fatdoc on here wrote an advise sheet for it when he was importing it?
Correct use from what I gather is once a week or on very thin skin to help it last just that bit longer. The jurys out on whether or not you put it on for 15mins and wash it off or leave it on all night.
I've also heard of one particular comp wad using it both days prior to a comp to get rid of grease.
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This may help (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,2640.0.html).
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Cheers! That has helped, I think i'm going to get some.
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sorry to resurrect this, but I just ordered some Antihydral and I'm looking for general advice after a few years of people trying it.
I have also read the older thread.
so, general consensus is:
- use it once a week max;
- maybe a couple of days before climbing;
- put a little bit on and rub it;
- avoid putting it into splits;
- use moisturizer creams after.
anything more? I got it to be able to try my project even in summer, when it could easily be in the 30°, and also getting harder skin for the nasty pinch and crimp.
thanks as usual for feedback.
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sorry to resurrect this, but I just ordered some Antihydral and I'm looking for general advice after a few years of people trying it.
I have also read the older thread.
so, general consensus is:
- use it once a week max;
- maybe a couple of days before climbing;
- put a little bit on and rub it;
- avoid putting it into splits and folds/creases at joints;
- use moisturizer creams after.
anything more? I got it to be able to try my project even in summer, when it could easily be in the 30°, and also getting harder skin for the nasty pinch and crimp.
thanks as usual for feedback.
On trips I end up using it pretty much every second day
The antihydral makes the skin a little weird and thick, not all of which the rock will wear away. Make sure and sand the extra areas of thick skin down
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thanks alot!
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I use it all year round about once a fortnight on just middle two on the small area of my tip that gets worn (first half pad). I tend to leave it on overnight. I'm sure antihydral allows me to do a more moves by drying it and making it tougher but it can only be used on good quality skin (ie can be thin but not torn or multi layered or split). Be a little careful too because it tends to toughen just the surface so sharp holds are more likely to split to blood.
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The antihydral makes the skin a little weird and thick, not all of which the rock will wear away. Make sure and sand the extra areas of thick skin down
This is how I used it on what turned out to be my best Font trip ever and I'm certain it helped my skin last that extra few tries/days.
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I use it all year round about once a fortnight on just middle two on the small area of my tip that gets worn (first half pad). I tend to leave it on overnight. I'm sure antihydral allows me to do a more moves by drying it and making it tougher but it can only be used on good quality skin (ie can be thin but not torn or multi layered or split). Be a little careful too because it tends to toughen just the surface so sharp holds are more likely to split to blood.
:agree:
This is how i've ended up using it too after reading the other thread linked. If my skin isn't too bad but I know it's going to get caned on crimps or rough rock during a session then a little (think VERY little) applied just before the session works wonders. obviously this works during the session too. the amount used ,and frequency of use seems to differ dramatically between friends, so some trial and error is necessary!
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so the magic stuff arrived. applied it last night. one question. it looks more like a thick paste than a cream and after putting it on it forms a brown patina that sticks to the skin and stays there rather than being absorbed. is this normal or have i been robbed big time paying 15 euros for toothpaste?
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hmm, mine is more of a creamish colour. Though I suppose at a push it could be called a very light brown.
Definitely quite creamy, and doesnt really dry unless I put a very small amount on each finger.
White box with blue writing?
I guess just wait for some results.
I thought they might be a little unnoticeable but after 4/5 almost consecutive sessions cranking down the wall my fingertips were still present and strong,
which definitely didnt happen before the cream...and I dont think the placebo effect can do that can it?
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so the magic stuff arrived. applied it last night. one question. it looks more like a thick paste than a cream and after putting it on it forms a brown patina that sticks to the skin and stays there rather than being absorbed. is this normal or have i been robbed big time paying 15 euros for toothpaste?
That's normal. Let it dry and wash it off in the morning or after a few hours.
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thanks again.
I went climbing yesterday and I have to say I noticed a different in my skin. it helped in crimpy-painful prehension, but dryfiring, with hot and dry temps, happened a couple of times. ouch.
all in all very promising.
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so the magic stuff arrived. applied it last night. one question. it looks more like a thick paste than a cream and after putting it on it forms a brown patina that sticks to the skin and stays there rather than being absorbed. is this normal or have i been robbed big time paying 15 euros for toothpaste?
That's normal. Let it dry and wash it off in the morning or after a few hours.
i agree...
btw it stains bed sheets...
just made sure i have a supply for font next week... 5 days of full on circuits... despite my poor skin i reckon I'll get 5 days ( 1/2 a day each.. but full on) in a row on the boulders.. I'll start the AH tomorrow.. will climb first day sunday.
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Does anybody know where to buy it in the UK?
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Da Weeeeeeerrrrrrrks.
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Da Weeeeeeerrrrrrrks.
Are you in Gadaffi character here El Stallioni?
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Thats how Bablefish translated it to scouse. :shrug:.
Stop hatin' on the geez.
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Any chance i could get these at the weeeerrrkksss too?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ladies-Special-Edition-CAT-Mule-slippers-Burg-size-4-/110303010762?pt=UK_Women_s_Shoes&hash=item19ae925fca (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ladies-Special-Edition-CAT-Mule-slippers-Burg-size-4-/110303010762?pt=UK_Women_s_Shoes&hash=item19ae925fca)
:wub:
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Thats how Bablefish translated it to scouse. :shrug:.
Mybad - I'm not too flash on recognising online scouse..
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lad dem cat webs are fuckin sick!
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Beastio, no amount of antihydral will offer protection to you if you're attempting boulder problems after the hands of Crouch have touched them.
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more on the subject: yesterday I went back to the gym for the fisrt time after starting using the magic stuff. well, I couldn't stay on any vaguely sloping hyold. I dryfired off from pinches like a missile.
so I think it's really not good for plastic.
anyone else had the same experience?
obviously excellent on grainy rock tho.
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I found the same, but have adapted to accept the change in friction.
I had expected it to be a wonder cure, making everything feel piss-easy, but it is not. It changes the friction and not all for the good. If you are used to dragging slopey plastic edges, the antihydral definately makes this worse. You have to crush the shit out of everything in order to stick, but that should be right up your street 8)
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yes, I'd happily exchange two more goes on the project with good friction on a greased, caked plastic hold.
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i found the same, my skin was horrible on the board but good on the grit.
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that's all I needed to know!!!
YYFY.
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On eBay for £10 with free p+p BTW
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Got some antihydral from Germany (check out the comic amount of packaging for two tubes!). But as ze instructions are in German, what are the recommended ways of applying for climbers? In the evening (leave on overnight) once or twice a week? Or any different?
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/10/azygu5a4.jpg)
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i like once a week, overnight, tips/pads only, keep it away from the creases, wash off in the morning (if you haven't sweated it off all over your pj's
will not really help for limestone bouldering imho, since you need a wee bit more skin flexibility/dampage
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Cheers Rodma. Perfect. Wanted it more to slow down the not climbing softening when away... see how it goes..
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Agree with rodders re application, but I'd leave it on for evening then wash off before bed. Good excuse for not doing anything around the house!
If you leave it on overnight you might get a thickening of skin elsewhere ;)
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Overnight for me as well, be sure you have already made love.
I find that it stats working best after some 24 hours, so to climb on a Saturday I would apply it over Thursday night.
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Twice a week overnight, Monday and Thursday evening. Sometimes a third time on Saturday for dry tips on sunday. Must skip the Monday session afterwards, otherwise glassy tips. No trouble with applying it to creases, but do have serious trouble with deep cracks in the skin on both thumbs - but this used to happen while working in the garden before antihydral as well. Known weak spot.
Used to overheat quickly, with sweaty fingers so climbing in the 'heat' above 15 degrees or a humid gym was awful. Not having to deal with issue anymore makes a big difference - I can climb faster, no need to chalk after every single move and dont have to pull as hard as I used to. Can't imagine climbing without Antihydral anymore. Went to a crag where chalk is forbidden last Sunday and managed to pull on tiny sloping edges in 28 degree heat and 90% humidity. A game changer for me.
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id be carefull keeping it on that long for the first few times, when i used it i only left it on for 30mins and it ruined my skin, cant imagine what it would have been like if i had kept it on over night.
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THanks Krank - I just kept it on for an hour or so and that seemed fine... odd it made my skin tips tingle - like after a hard day at the crag! :/
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Wow, I never had my tips tingle from anti-hydral!
Love the stuff though, after talking to a bunch of people on my extended climbing trip the way people use it is very individual as everyone has different degrees of sweatiness on their hands (obviously)! One German bird said she smeared it over her entire palm side of her hand, every night of the week?!?
I personally apply a very thin layer (finger prints still visible) with some flat cotton wool buds nicked from the mrs, similar to these; http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Cosmetic-Tip-Buds-1-x-80-Carton_1115757/ (http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Cosmetic-Tip-Buds-1-x-80-Carton_1115757/) (the pointy end is good for working in some moisturiser into your cuticles without having you get your pads all greased up with moisturiser).
I pay careful attention to where the tips are sweating from during my session and only apply to those specific areas, usually half of the 'bump' of the fingertip and the area just below it (bump is more obvious if you look from the side). Here's an excellent representation of the coverage I use personally, courtesy of Microsoft paint:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14598970548_13b1e693a9.jpg)
I'll sometimes go a bit closer to the tip if it's sweating badly but rarely any more coverage than shown. Personally I'll keep it on overnight for two nights in a row and then it'll usually be OK for 2-3 days, then I repeat. I was told by someone that there's a bit of a delay in the drying out and I find that to be true. That is, if I use it for 2 nights it still seems like it could do with another night but by the end of the day it's continued to dry out and is perfect. If you press on and use it more you end up with the glassy tips that can't keep hold of much, especially resin holds.
Obviously, applying to any type of damaged fingertip (e.g. split, weeping, etc) makes you a moron and deserved of the bad things that follow.
When you perfect using it you can still have soft skin that has grip on slick holds but you can be sweating all over your body, EXCEPT your finger tips. This is the true sign of a seasoned anti-hydral user imo (yes, I'm currently out of work and bored).
Go forth and conquer.
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Anyone got any knowledge on current Antihydral supplies in the UK? I'm happy with brand new or partly used tubes!
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http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=24561.msg455558#msg455558
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Weird, I searched for that and couldn't find it. I'm a dunce.
Ta for link :-)
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Weird, I searched for that and couldn't find it. I'm a dunce.
Ta for link :-)
Theres a few antihydral threads/links I think... so easy to get the wrong one etc..
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My specific issue is that I seeny to be very susceptible to split tips when climbing on grit. It's an enormous ball ache.
Does antihydral help with this, either by toughening/thickening the skin or by reducing moisture production and thus reducing slippage on small holds? Or is it better at just improving friction?
Other than ordering a dodgy box from Germany are there any other products out there except Rhino Skin? I notice that Rhino Skin Tip Juice is not FDA approved - is it snake oil or unsafe? Anyone have experience using it?
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My specific issue is that I seeny to be very susceptible to split tips when climbing on grit. It's an enormous ball ache.
Does antihydral help with this, either by toughening/thickening the skin or by reducing moisture production and thus reducing slippage on small holds? Or is it better at just improving friction?
Other than ordering a dodgy box from Germany are there any other products out there except Rhino Skin? I notice that Rhino Skin Tip Juice is not FDA approved - is it snake oil or unsafe? Anyone have experience using it?
The Rhino Skin dry works well for me. Much less faff than Antihydral
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Does antihydral help with this, either by toughening/thickening the skin or by reducing moisture production and thus reducing slippage on small holds? Or is it better at just improving friction?
Stops tips sweating so skin wears slower and therefore gets thicker. I wouldn’t say it necessarily improves friction of skin, sometimes the opposite in fact, as your tips can become less malleable and leave you open to a potential Nathanieling!
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Anti-hydral thickens and dries the skin and I’m not sure it will help if you’re already splitting often, possibly make it worse.
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My experience is that antihydral makes skin a bit leathery / plasticky - if anything, friction is worse, as the surface is too dry and less pliable (mind you, I have naturally dry skin. The pads of the fingertips wear through slower - so it is good for mitigating abrasion from a few days of climbing on rough but not sharp holds. But if you do use antihydral and get a split or are sliced by a crystal, it makes matters worse - the sides of the slice are thicker and dryer and more reluctant to knit together.
Personally, I keep away from the stuff during my normal "weekend warrior" routine but might have a one-off treatment before a holiday or long weekend (e.g. 3 or 4 consecutive days of climbing) when raw, seepy pads are a possibility. So, it's not a panacea for bad skin but it has its place (and lasts ages - my tube must be near 10 years old and near full, and seemingly still effective).
If you want to borrow my tube and have a few trial runs, and ever pass through Ilkley (or want me to drop it off if I'm passing through your area) let me know.
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My specific issue is that I seeny to be very susceptible to split tips when climbing on grit. It's an enormous ball ache.
Does antihydral help with this, either by toughening/thickening the skin or by reducing moisture production and thus reducing slippage on small holds? Or is it better at just improving friction?
Other than ordering a dodgy box from Germany are there any other products out there except Rhino Skin? I notice that Rhino Skin Tip Juice is not FDA approved - is it snake oil or unsafe? Anyone have experience using it?
The Rhino Skin dry works well for me. Much less faff than Antihydral
I find Performance even betterer
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Here I am again. The days get shorter, the sun sinks to the horizon, and I start to wonder how I can toughen up my skin so I can boulder on grit.
I promised I would dabble last year but didn't get round to it. So I typed "antihydral" into Google, resolved to buy some, and it auto-completed to "antihydral cancer". Hmmm. I clicked and found some threads of climbers asking whether antihydral could increase cancer risk but without any real answers.
Antihydral uses methenamine at 13% as its active ingredient. This enters the skin and is partially hydrolysed to formaldehyde which then denatures proteins in your sweat glands. Formaldehyde has been linked to increased cancer risk, but none of the studies I've found give relevant evidence. They're normally looking at industrial/commercial settings involving inhalation or at exposures much greater than putting some cream on your fingers once a week. Or some of them are looking at much lower concentrations - such as those found in cosmetics and other household items.
I appreciate this might seem a bit Daily Mail - wondering whether the likes of eating burnt toast will instantly result in leukemia - but cancer is quite shit so I'd like to understand whether there is an increased risk before diving in. Do any of the medical types hereabouts have any info or thoughts?
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This isn't directly applicable to Antihydral, but cancer risk gets a mention in this risk assessment of methenamine by the Scientific Committee on Health and Environmental Risks:
https://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_scher/docs/scher_o_054.pdf
"No carcinogenicity studies that meet current standards were performed with
methenamine. From a number of limited life-time studies on rats and mice, all using the
oral route of exposure, there was no indication of a carcinogenic potential. With regard
to the carcinogenicity of formaldehyde, which may be released from methenamine, the
RAR states that “A valid cancer study with administration of formaldehyde via drinking
water to rats did not demonstrate increased tumour incidences in any organ. Thus it is
concluded that the formation of formaldehyde due to the pH dependent cleavage of
methenamine in body compartments should be of no concern with respect to
carcinogenicity“. The study on which this statement is based is the carcinogenicity study
performed by Til et al. (1989), the 2 year drinking water study of formaldehyde in rats
(p. 83 of the RAR)."
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Yeah, saw that one. It didn't seem comparable to our usage though. I'm sure there won't be a study out there looking at health risks among grease-fingered weekend warriors, but there are people who regularly use this stuff topically (amputees, some ultra-sweats).
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No, its not directly comparable but I took comfort in finding that there was no indication of carcinogenic potential in a study where it was taken orally (in rats). As a layman, my assumption would be the risk of taking it orally > putting it on my fingertips once a week. Still, my uneducated guess would be that it's not risk free - what drug is?
Interested to read any responses from knowledgeable folk.
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Methenamine is used (rarely due to other more effect options) orally for preventing recurrent urine infections - formaldehyde has antibiotic action in the urine. I've never seen any literature around restrictions on use due to cancer risk (this may exist).
I haven't used AH but given the tiny amounts potentially absorbed via topical intermittent use vs. any oral use, I would certainly do so if I thought it necessary.
Going for a run in Airedale probably has a bigger cancer risk (air quality...).
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Thanks guys. Sounds kosher. Thought I'd ask as this isn't my field.
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This is where we need an ex supertopo resident to come and say YER GONNA DIE etc.
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Anyone got anything to say about Rhino performance? My tips are in a sorry state, and I'm not sure if it's dryness, getting too thick and then chunking off or what.
Tried rhino performance a bit in Canada but I can't say I noticed much.
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My understanding is that the epidermis is very effective at keeping out toxic chemicals, ludicrously good in fact. So I would say it's unlikely that tiny amounts of a maybe/possible carcinogen on the skin would ever amount to anything. Though I would be careful not to put it on open cuts.
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Anyone got anything to say about Rhino performance? My tips are in a sorry state, and I'm not sure if it's dryness, getting too thick and then chunking off or what.
Tried rhino performance a bit in Canada but I can't say I noticed much.
Performance is a weaker antihydral, maybe use something like Rhino Repair and make sure to sand any flakey bits.
My skin is quite wet and I swear by using Tip Juice and occasionally spraying some Dry on which is quicker acting. I also like Performance as a weaker alternative.
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Not read the entire thread so apologies if I’m repeating what’s already been said. I suffer from soft sweaty skin and have tried pretty much every treatment available, including iontophoresis machine. I’ve settled on using an odour-free antiperspirant called Driclor, which contains aluminium chloride as the active ingredient. As far as I can tell there are no long term detrimental effects to the human body, the compound having been studied for 80 years or so. Skin definitely drier after prolonged use, only downside is skin can get a bit sore but just have one night using climb on as a break. Also, relatively cheap option. One 20ml bottle lasts months and costs about a fiver
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Anyone got anything to say about Rhino performance? My tips are in a sorry state, and I'm not sure if it's dryness, getting too thick and then chunking off or what.
Tried rhino performance a bit in Canada but I can't say I noticed much.
Performance is a weaker antihydral, maybe use something like Rhino Repair and make sure to sand any flakey bits.
My skin is quite wet and I swear by using Tip Juice and occasionally spraying some Dry on which is quicker acting. I also like Performance as a weaker alternative.
Sorry, I should have been clearer - I'm not super sweaty-tipped, but definitely tend to the "overchalking" rather than cracking/dry. I got the rhino performance to see if some light use would bring my skin into the perfect level of moisture.
I think I used it twice when away, on the days we were sport climbing on Gneiss early in the morning before it got too hot. Not enough testing to confirm.
I was away for a month and did >3500m of granite - my hands were in a sorry state after the bugs!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1troIqAeGUZhLItnpVBNXJ551MXb1Jk5F6AFTIYtSh8ArELEnT2iFZd9s4c75rM-AAaIXHEbHGeUI4ZbAEx3nkVcOw6otJdx-yS5vfLXRAL3wbru5lvZVEtHnHNB0okIVy9ZZpMtJLQAnA_Qmbw2pQCJaHD1CX199t2WL2XznJUXZpARf5wWPHoKRK-VXo_SOS6IW4u9g__pZ7yC6Ota9MjjJIUqAxKo_0jd5jwn_XMjEjZwluw9-c85cbb071S-G2SNR1nQIVKuJssBETQecILDO8Ap8A9mBVqDqCRqxdtvCqIzyiGnTHP0hfxROtYRWAVO5AmyVllBlENMcJJMVJp9wuQOvzOZebfPpX1FSCiLkl45vDK7d26UPorOVXhnD0AHPamFCDHcJVf60s80QJjJsUmML1fW0RoA4aFERx-_i9U_z_ubo2v8DB6kQJxKPBfNEheFkY6sagMNYgz5j1K0HAS7LmVVGEz_7zQ4R3l-MvKT0qhskULqtyge2z_XsvGlR1R9V4IYFmfEx2SnNAkhlacanLq3EOCCIRdr_ZvLCpa3qRmh4Ka5mUDHetvktj_Tj3t8GrK0Y9jvcFwxg7qra4oXE_lhLSlAW7me5U2bk1H41k1RJQfQndHt80kp4FqcvCPtZEAkK80oGHck_ICsV3SuIPKNKCvTxiuaNblwc2JnkY_gHYWOShbk3NmrrM-7F6DC50RyDDdQgowV_ZzSDHfWWEjPTUp4mYmhrIIQhQalSiAIYO4f6ZeYJIodYJwxjrdHzwGKmi_Ogn-4wQfD1Fs5Uv4pcTxK3kGkYok6GxYJYXP8eu7GKoAYeQ5j_uKJAzRpXaKB1YdMZAVul-0vkF-Rmz8TD_4X_SJ1D1_rs_M0ylTdp3cWqowQEP0OFrl5ZY0dQF69ZPmjZf897W3eqsiHhEvR-5l6H_4=w425-h942-no?authuser=0)
So much crack climbing that my palms had got all thick and then crumbled off in the first few weeks back. Last night at TCA a few wee holes started to appear again on my tips - not splits, just the top layer turning into a little white spot, then peeling off leaving gaps.
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What did you do in the Bugs?
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A fair bit, been meaning to write up some kind of trip report. McTech Arete, Paddle Flake, NE Ridge of Bugaboo, Sunshine Crack and Minotaur were the highlights. Minotaur was amazing, 2 day mission with a lux bivvy halfway up snowpatch.
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Revival:
Never dabbled with skin products but looking for something to maximise my infrequent climbing days. Skin is almost always the first thing to stop me and I split fairly easily if not careful.
Ideally I’m after something that could be applied a couple of days before or in the morning to dry and toughen the skin, not something that requires constant application and maintenance.
Rhino Skin products worth a go? Not clear from the blurbs which would be better for me, Dry or Performance. Tip juice sounds a bit severe, though maybe that’s what I need for infrequent use?
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If you split often I imagine drying agents would mean you split more from what people say. Is your skin fairly dry?
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Not naturally dry, and not overly sweaty either, just seems to wear through very fast, get very thin and then I get a little hole on the tip or split.
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Not naturally dry, and not overly sweaty either, just seems to wear through very fast, get very thin and then I get a little hole on the tip or split.
Based on this description I think Antihydral might work well. I never thought I had particularly moist skin before using it, but now realise just how much better harder dry skin is for most climbing. Using antihydral, I think splits occur at about the same rate in winter, less in summer, and wearing through due to repeated abrasion takes a little longer at any time of year. On small holds I find my skin feels more solid as well, like there's less roll. Some people don't get on well with it but it's probably worth a try. I use standard antihydral once per week, perhaps upping it in summer to every 4 or 5 days. I try to apply it 2 nights before I climb.
It's also worth considering pre-taping tips for any particularly rough/sharp holds and only taking off the tape for proper redpoint attempts if needed.
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Not naturally dry, and not overly sweaty either, just seems to wear through very fast, get very thin and then I get a little hole on the tip or split.
Based on this description I think Antihydral might work well. I never thought I had particularly moist skin before using it, but now realise just how much better harder dry skin is for most climbing. Using antihydral, I think splits occur at about the same rate in winter, less in summer, and wearing through due to repeated abrasion takes a little longer at any time of year. On small holds I find my skin feels more solid as well, like there's less roll. Some people don't get on well with it but it's probably worth a try. I use standard antihydral once per week, perhaps upping it in summer to every 4 or 5 days. I try to apply it 2 nights before I climb.
It's also worth considering pre-taping tips for any particularly rough/sharp holds and only taking off the tape for proper redpoint attempts if needed.
Cheers Liam. Given I'm only getting out once a month at the moment (at best!) would I still need to be applying it that regularly to get any benefit?
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I think it varies from person to person, but I need to use it for at least a couple of weeks to grow some thicker skin. If I put it on when I have thinner skin the day or two before heading out, I just end up with dry thin skin which doesn’t infer much of an advantage!