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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by Tony on Today at 12:31:51 pm »

The episode was plainly a stunt.

…

Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest

Part of the difficulty is that individual does routinely claim their actions are as a “private individual” yet they run a campaign group and their private actions frequently appear to be filmed by people in an entourage.

They do not claim on these occasions to be “demonstrating”. They are, therefore, not authorised to demonstrate and they have not discussed policing arrangements and other security and crowd management arrangements.

There are often official parallel-demonstrations. (As abarro81 points out, it’s not clear if it’s sensible to call these “counter-demonstrations”; probably more anti-specific-demonstration demonstrations?) At these, the police do attend and they have investigated incidents of hate crime, intimidation, etc. (Even if there are not arrests, people may be warned and/or records made on the Police National Computer.)

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by stone on Today at 12:25:02 pm »

Perhaps some counter-protestors want unwavering support for a military solution to Hamas. -to ensure that Hamas can never again mount an attack -and that people in Gaza will be frightened off supporting a similar organisation in the future.

Like I've said, I think that is a misguided and forlorn course to attempt, that would only lead to worsening tragedy all round. But it isn't so far from what our government (with support from the opposition) is standing behind.

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power club / Re: Power Club 749 15-21 April 2024

« Last post by Fiend on Today at 12:04:04 pm »

Not quite as late as Duncan Disorderly usually is....

Next week STG: Gentle shoulder rehab x 3 - yes. Gentle shoulder mobility x 3 - yes. Reduce intensity - not really overall. Easy trad if possible - barely. Get back on the social wagon - yes but usual uphill battle.
The usual STG: Stay focused and don't make silly mistakes - I guess so. Do something challenging and inspiring on a rope, or above a pad - yes. Keep in regular contact with suitable friends and partners - yes, put the not-entirely-reciprocated effort in. Falling practise if I do routes indoors or out - n/a. Look after injuries - mixed bag, did rehab but pushed a bit too, gym x 1 - yes, elbow rehab x 1 - yes, shoulder rehab x 3 - yes, stretching x 3 - 2 but one was LONG.


M - Rest. Gentle shoulder rehab. Shoulder sore and impinged.

T -  Active rest. Gym. Misc conditioning core / legs, TGU, a few tests with light arm weights (almost unbelievably weak, the weakest I've been in decades, probably due to shoulder fatigue). Elbow rehab, lots of shoulder rehab, 55 mins stretching. Shoulder impinged but slightly less sore around the area.

W - Rest. Depressed. Stretching session. Gentle shoulder mobility. Shoulder impinged but slightly less sore around the area.

T - Indoor bouldering @ Bloc Haus. 6 x V2-4, 6 x V3-5 (flash, all piss), 2 x V4-6 (flash). Tried another 2 x V3-5s and 6 x V4-6s (mostly desperate) and couldn't do them. Lost the will to live. Fed up with too much "all or nothing" setting with wild moves without enough natural small footholds, very much the indoor equivalent of Moonboard thuggery. Shoulder sore and impinged. Gentle shoulder rehab. Gentle shoulder mobility. A bit depressed.

F - 1 hour walking. 6B, 6B+, 2 x 6C, 6C+. Shoulder impinged but slightly better than previous day.

S - 1 hour walking. 3 x 6C, 4 x 6C+. Great day. Felt like myself again. Shoulder a bit impinged but really quite decent given the volume.

S - 40 mins walking. A bit of Easy Trad. Shoulder feeling quite a bit better. Post script: Both shoulders a lot more sore overnight and into the next day for no reason at all.


Up and down week managing shoulder and mental health but had a very fine day at the weekend. Shoulder nonsense is up and down especially given how well it coped with a big day bouldering vs how neither shoulder coped with a good night's sleep on Sunday


Next week STG: Not sure.
The usual STG: Stay focused and don't make silly mistakes. Do something challenging and inspiring on a rope, or above a pad. Keep in regular contact with suitable friends and partners. Falling practise if I do routes indoors or out. Look after injuries, gym x 1, elbow rehab x 1, shoulder rehab x 3, stretching x 3.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by abarro81 on Today at 11:48:01 am »

Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest; someone mentioned the 'shame on you' more innocent end of it.

For those of us who are ill informed, what do the counter protestors 'want' (notionally, within the confines of them being lots of people wanting different things etc.)? If the protesters notionally want ceasefire, do the counter protestors want IDF to keep smashing civilians or want anyone who supports ceasefire or thinks IDF and Netanyahu are c*nts to STFU? If they just want antisemites to STFU it seems like a pity that it ends up as "protest" and "counter protest" when lots of people probably agree with both 

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by Tony on Today at 11:26:28 am »

Perhaps your point is that is being intolerant of racist abusers and not respecting the validity of their racism or something.

Er, no, manifestly that was not my point and I’ll sue you for libel should you wish to write that more definitively- I jest.

What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.

And my point was, in daily life this -sadly- happens all the time because: people don’t want to speak out or people feel unable to speak out (due to power imbalance or intimidation or wanting to belong, etc, etc) or people expect someone else to speak out.

In that procession, I expect most people would not agree with insulting behaviour but they may not have felt able or willing to confront it. They may also have felt intimidated.

Can you genuinely say you’ve never turned a blind eye to anything, ever? If not, you’ve either led a very righteous life indeed or you’re very blind.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by stone on Today at 11:10:09 am »

The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.

Just to point out: this is a completely specious statement. It actually makes exceptionally little sense in the Israel-Palestine (inc. Gaza) context.
I presume you mean something more like “tolerance”. But that’s not what you wrote.

What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.

Perhaps your point is that is being intolerant of racist abusers and not respecting the validity of their racism or something. Well yes it is and yes that is what we must do.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by cowboyhat on Today at 11:08:11 am »

There was also a piece on C4 news - where they found phone footage of bloke trying to cross the march on at least two other occasions and being asked not to by two different police officers. It appears that his behavior was being observed by a plain clothes officer and when G was challenged about this and denied it - said officer piped up to contradict him.

Bit of a weird flex; I edited that VT.

The episode was plainly a stunt; one that he would argue serves to draw attention to the very real situation such as Mike is describing.

Jewish colleagues, notable very serious journalists, tend to think that it doesn't help at all and fans the flames. I listened to a couple of big rants about his antics and those state funded type organisations that don't represent the views of most jewish Londoners.

I wonder if it does help; keeping the wider antisemitism in the public eye...? Aside from this informed conversation most people just see the initial headlines.


In the footage there are Jewish people who were on the Free GAza march, trying to help the police/ intervene with the stunt because this bloke is a widely known character. Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest; someone mentioned the 'shame on you' more innocent end of it. Unusually the police come out of this whole thing really well.

As Andy points out, things are better here.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by andy popp on Today at 11:05:36 am »

Meanwhile, on American university campuses, the right to protest (let alone counter protest) appears to dying a rapid death.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by mrjonathanr on Today at 11:02:05 am »

Tony, that rather depends on your understanding of ‘confrontational’. Asserting the validity of others’ rights to be different; active tolerance, let’s say. That was my reading and a position I’d agree with.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by mrjonathanr on Today at 10:52:51 am »

I’d love to think education is the answer, but teenagers are not the most stable or receptive audience…

It’s not the single, magic bullet-type answer, but it’s going to be cheaper in the long run than ceding to ignorance. And it doesn’t start and stop at the school gate. We are all involved in educating each other and I thank this forum for that; it’s a stimulating place, with some thought provoking posters (thanks to Stone for starting this thread).

There’s no single answer, but schools have a role play. I’d say formal education is a key component of a successful society, which is why the decline of curriculum time for arts and creative subjects since 2010 is such a loss. Creative and critical thinking is essential in shaping a healthy society.