UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: user deactivated on March 30, 2019, 09:58:08 pm
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If progress in climbing (as in progress in general) is measured on a horizontal axis, and the grade of a climb is part of that progress then the measurement of it can only exist in the past or future. When a climb or climber is reported as ‘9a+ for X’ or ‘bold ascent for Y’ or even if a future grade is sold to you e.g ‘train your max hangs and achieve 8b’ or you need ‘ancap’ before ‘aeropow’ or even practice ‘flow’ to conquer your fear. The climber has bought into or been sold an image of themselves, or even is selling an image of themselves to others. To be the ‘best’ in whatever way relies on the failure of others for success. When I watched free solo I was surprised to find the opposite of what I expected, a man determined to push barriers driven by ideas of success and failure which had been instilled since childhood by a particular parenting style. There was no choice in his decision to solo free rider it was preprogrammed.
I wonder what it would be like to do away with grades and paying attention to the reporting of these things? To ignore the horizontal axis and focus on the vertical instead. In this sense when you are hanging two crimps on a climb (say 8a) on the horizontal you have set out on an 8a with the intention of getting to the top of an 8a. On the vertical you are hanging to crimps on a wall,those two handholds and the experience of holding them are not ‘8a’ and in that sense do not symbolise success or failure and the personal experiences that go with those ideas. I wonder if this is where the deeply experienced dissatisfaction comes from as we attach meaning that isn’t there to others perceived successes and failures, which is fertilised by the manure of climbing press and self reporting. I quite like the summing up line of this poem-
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
In my beginning is my end.
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons.
TS Elliot
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(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/54437352_10157462651058623_794091478245703680_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=a709aad35f0de7445b1cfbfce04108af&oe=5D48A2D2)
(this may or may not be an at all relevant answer, I just wanted to post it)
P.S. I like grades as a theoretically informative estimation of likely challenge - very useful. And as a topic of debate. As trophies to collect.....less so.
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I wonder what it would be like to do away with grades and paying attention to the reporting of these things? To ignore the horizontal axis and focus on the vertical instead. In this sense when you are hanging two crimps on a climb (say 8a) on the horizontal you have set out on an 8a with the intention of getting to the top of an 8a. On the vertical you are hanging to crimps on a wall,those two handholds and the experience of holding them are not ‘8a’ and in that sense do not symbolise success or failure and the personal experiences that go with those ideas. I wonder if this is where the deeply experienced dissatisfaction comes from as we attach meaning that isn’t there to others perceived successes and failures, which is fertilised by the manure of climbing press and self reporting.
But what about my ego... you're forgetting about my ego!
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Nah, you can enjoy the fact that’s going nowhere for any of us!
Fiend, grades as informative theoreticaly but not in practice. The John Gill quote is great. The insta hive mind ego. Unconscious on a grand scale where everyone is role playing. Clearly shown by the Kinder shenanigans, he role played the joker, the media branded him the devil, and the insta public the saviours, now he’s resurrected as the saved. Don’t know why is sticks in my craw so much.
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I think I see your point with the grades thing, I reckon there is a middle ground to be had where grades are more a tool and the climbs speak for themselves. I think as a tool they are useful for targets and measuring (personal) progress too though. I know my goal to climb 8a has now crystallised on a single route that I want to do more for its own right now than for the number for sure.
I’m not quite sure I buy that success is dependant on the failure of others. Maybe yes in the specific case of being ‘the best’ but surely it isn’t many of us who are really desperate to be the best? (C.f Jerry Moffat and I know your opinion of him!)
At the level of non superlative mortals my friend Sam just climbed Fighting Torque super quick after figuring out the beta together, I’m very happy for him and it won’t effect how I feel about my success when I finally do it.
Do you really think Honnold had no choice in his actions? He has certainly been shaped by his experiences and biology, but surely he has free will in as much as any of us do (perhaps the bigger question). Either way I don’t think he was motivated by grades or being the best!
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Ok, well...
Let's consider the following scenarios:
-i want to find a piece of rock to spend a few sessions on (but eventually succeed).
-i am sore and need climbs that are interesting but not too intense
-i am bringing a newbie friend on a MP and need to choose an adequate one.
For all three scenarios grades are a big part of the information needed.
They inevitably become a measuring stick for ranking climbers instead of routes, but it's more because of human nature than because of grades per se
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Interesting post Dan. I like reading your ideas. Mainly I agree with Monk that there is probably a happy medium/middle ground with grades. They do show progress and it feels nice to get better but clearly they aren't the most important thing. Personally I enjoy achieving a new grade (not that this happens pretty much ever!) but also as I have climbed for a fair while I rate the feeling of climbing well higher. In terms of being the best I think even in a competition setting, winning doesn't have to mean someone else failed. It could simply mean you and they performed to your best and your best was better but still they executed everything as well as they could have. This doesn't seem like failure to me. If you perform well for yourself and execute the things you have planned but still lose or for example don't complete a redpoint then this is not failure. To be fair given I fail most of the time in climbing I need to take this point of view!
Dave
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Nice quote. You forgot:
I grow old ... I grow old ...
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.
Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I suspect you know the next lines.
Edit: the next 2 lines, not just one
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Two premises I don't agree with..
If progress in climbing (as in progress in general) is measured on a horizontal axis, and the grade of a climb is part of that progress then the measurement of it can only exist in the past or future.
What you're doing by saying this is viewing climbing progression in terms of Zeno's Paradox (http://Zeno's Paradox).
Calculus answered that question in the 17th century :lol:
[One] of the paradoxes of Zeno is the "paradox of the arrow". Consider an arrow in its flight. At each point of its trajectory it is at rest because nothing can move during an "instant" - a time interval of length zero. Since the entire trajectory of the arrow is made up of points, or if you will, the time interval is a "sum" or a "union" of instants; it is claimed by this reasoning that it is logically impossible for the arrow to move at all. It is calculus which came to the rescue in the case of the arrow. The language of calculus is able to handle the notion of instant velocity at a given point as a derivative and the length of the travelled trajectory as an integral, the two fitting together in a beautiful way corresponding to the fundamental theorem of calculus. What is at the heart of the "resolution" of the paradox of the arrow is comparable to what is at the heart of integral calculus, namely to give a precise meaning to certain (uncountable) infinite sums of "infinitely small" addends. Again, we should certainly not view calculus as the "logical proof of" or the "reason for" the fact that it is possible for an arrow to move. It should rather be viewed as a consistent language representing a vast extension of every-day language which is able to cope with the notion of infinity at the same time it admirably fits the observed facts.
http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Extras/Aubert_Zeno.html
Also..
To be the ‘best’ in whatever way relies on the failure of others for success.
This isn't true because it presumes 'success' can only be defined by being better than everyone else. But success isn't defined that way. 100 people can all be successful by all achieving their chosen goals, independently of the other 99 people.
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Ghisno I agree with all your points and think grades in a totally informative sense do direct us in the way you mentioned. What I’m curious about is the idea that there is no such thing as ‘success or failure’ other than the one created by our ego unconsciously. In this way grades are meaningless and is only a concept devised to support our ego’s (which is no bad thing). In my experience grades do appear to be used as a measure of ‘success’ and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is a choice to recognise that this isn’t a ‘fact’ but a product of the unconscious. Maybe that is the happy middle ground Monk and Davo refer to. To enjoy ‘progression’ on those terms but recognise it’s relatively meaningless at the same time. I’m not sure calculus and the arrow has much to do with anything I said, apart from the idea of time. As far as I understand the arrow doesn’t experience consciousness or unconscious drives therefore doesn’t struggle with living in present or the desire to hit its target. Cheers for the links tho 👍
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I don’t really ‘believe’ in free will Monk, and I thought free solo was a great example of that. A man driven in a very powerful way by unconscious drives so clear that everything about the film indicated he had no choice. He even seemed bewildered by it at times.
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Grade are useful but can become misused as a proxy for real insight, kinda like an example of Goodhart's law "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."
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I don’t really ‘believe’ in free will Monk, and I thought free solo was a great example of that. A man driven in a very powerful way by unconscious drives so clear that everything about the film indicated he had no choice. He even seemed bewildered by it at times.
I can understand that.
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Grade are useful but can become misused as a proxy for real insight, kinda like an example of Goodhart's law "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."
True. Can’t quite imagine a world without grades though. Can anyone invisage an alternative?
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But what would you talk about in the pub? Anybody else remember `Exceptionally Severe`? A short-lived North Wales coinage.
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From Wiki;
The B system conceived by John Gill in the 1950s was a universal rating scheme for bouldering, having three categories: "B1" was defined as "... the highest level of difficulty in traditional roped climbing", "B2" was harder than B1, or "bouldering level", and the grade "B3" designated a route ascended only once, although tried by others on several occasions. When a B3 was ascended a second time, it was reclassified as a B2, or B1.
Gill's idea was to attract climbers to the "new" sport of bouldering, but discourage turning that sport into a numbers race.
His system depended heavily on traditional climbing standards, long before sport climbing came into existence. It was assumed that the scale would shift as traditional difficulty levels rose. Thus, e.g., a B1(1958) would be easier than a B1(1968).
Gill, ahead of his time in more ways than one.
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Interesting thread this, something I’ve been reflecting on this year partly because of my recent experiences I v started thinking of grades as personal to each individual.
As an extension of Gills philosophy;
There are problems I can do first go or in a day.
There are problems I can only do after multiple days of effort.
There are problems that it is extremely unlikely I will ever climb.
Helps keep the ego out of the way.
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I've always felt that climbing was a great sport/hobby/pastime in terms of being yourself measured against the yardstick of the grade of an external thing, rather than yourself measured against other people. Most other sports I've done have been more competitive - the most obvious being MMA where generally it was only fun if you won and usually less painful. Climbing for me is a bit of an escape from the binary nature of other sports.
As such it's sort of irrelevant what grades other people are climbing, unless you let it bother you or define your own pursuit of progress.
Success is success climbing a climb. How you feel about it should be down to how much you enjoyed it, how difficult it was for you, how much you had to overcome to get up the climb. It's not success relative to others unless that's the way you judge yourself? I've had great days failing to redpoint climbs.
If you're talking about thoughts of success or failure crowding out the process of climbing and acting as mental inhibitors then I recognise this, and it's one of the challenges of focusing on the task in hand isn't it. I've experienced both: 'You're about to do your first 7c, don't blow it' runs through your head and builds tension. Also 'I'm feeling so pumped, there's no way I can do that next section, it's 7c, it's too hard'.
When grades become meaningless or false climbing can be very frustrating - indoor routes are like this when you're trying to warm up and find yourself boning down on a crimp getting pumped and thinking 'this can't be 6b?' Ditto the demoralisation when you're trying to find an amenable project within your usual grade boundary to work in a few goes and can't even do half the moves.
ghisino's post maybe says all of the above more succinctly and is more recognisable for me than the sort of media-fuelled ego-grade frenzy described in the OP.
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Grade are useful but can become misused as a proxy for real insight, kinda like an example of Goodhart's law "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."
If only Dave MacLeod had been so concise in his Vlog!
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I wonder what it would be like to do away with grades and paying attention to the reporting of these things? To ignore the horizontal axis and focus on the vertical instead. In this sense when you are hanging two crimps on a climb (say 8a) on the horizontal you have set out on an 8a with the intention of getting to the top of an 8a. On the vertical you are hanging to crimps on a wall,those two handholds and the experience of holding them are not ‘8a’ and in that sense do not symbolise success or failure and the personal experiences that go with those ideas.
I'm lost, what are the units for the vertical axis?
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I wonder what it would be like to do away with grades and paying attention to the reporting of these things? To ignore the horizontal axis and focus on the vertical instead. In this sense when you are hanging two crimps on a climb (say 8a) on the horizontal you have set out on an 8a with the intention of getting to the top of an 8a. On the vertical you are hanging to crimps on a wall,those two handholds and the experience of holding them are not ‘8a’ and in that sense do not symbolise success or failure and the personal experiences that go with those ideas.
I'm lost, what are the units for the vertical axis?
They are Cheatums - a measure of how aligned you are with being a #soulclimber
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+1 for Rocksteady's reply.
One of the nicest things about climbing is the extent to which it is primarily a competition against yourself. This of course allows for a more friendly and half-serious competition between friends.
Arguably, this internal competition would be impossible without meaningful grades.
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I wonder what it would be like to do away with grades and paying attention to the reporting of these things? To ignore the horizontal axis and focus on the vertical instead. In this sense when you are hanging two crimps on a climb (say 8a) on the horizontal you have set out on an 8a with the intention of getting to the top of an 8a. On the vertical you are hanging to crimps on a wall,those two handholds and the experience of holding them are not ‘8a’ and in that sense do not symbolise success or failure and the personal experiences that go with those ideas.
I'm lost, what are the units for the vertical axis?
They are Cheatums - a measure of how aligned you are with being a #soulclimber
Haha Soulclimber or Gradewhore. Interesting dichotomy. I’d say maybe (not entirely sure) being ‘alive’ is on the vertical axis. Immeasurable? Are you a closet soul climber too Reeve?
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Are you a closet soul climber too Reeve?
On the surface I appear deep, but deep down I'm actually really shallow.
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I am reminded of the comment by the author of a past bouldering guides (I forget which one).
'A guidebook without a graded list at the back is a shallow, meaningless thing'. Discuss....
Anyone remember which guide it was?
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I always thought the intended use of grades was to measure climbs against one another in terms of relative difficulty.
The use of grades by climbers as a personal measure or indeed to measure climbers against one another is something else. This different perception of grades usage could be seen as meaningless, however I wouldn't say it makes grades themselves meaningless.
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‘ The only men with glory are the dead men. Glory kills men.’
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I prefer ‘no guts, no glory’ and particularly the expression I had to ‘gird my loins’ before setting off on the runout. Operating below thought not above it, a bit more base and visceral.
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I’ve always wondered if failure (or at least the prospect of failure) is more important than success in climbing. Well not abject failure but just enough to instil some doubt. Success brings relief but also always ‘what’s next’. I think you go climbing because of what you can’t do (yet). Not what you can do.
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Climbing is this ever evolving thing, and although it really is about the goal, and succeeding, and getting to the top; at the same time, it's a never ending cycle of finding something you're really motivated on, obsessing over it, and then once you get to the top, celebrating for a little while and then moving on to the next thing.
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The rock gives us nothing and particularly not a grade to strive for. Or maybe more like a mirror what we give the rock and activity, like anything is eventually reflected back at us. The rock doesn’t give us a cuddle when we feel miserable and stressed towards it. It just makes us feel miserable right back. The joy we feel with success is so transient that we’re immediately thinking of the next bit of rock that will fill the hole, and at the end of it all when our joints, muscles and minds are shrinking and old, even the memories created by that activity will be desperately hung onto as a source of pride in who we once were accompanied by the pain of loss of what we can no longer be. Therefore I’d rather have fun than piss it up the wall in a tedious goal based training program full of performance peaks and troughs
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I don't really care about the grades. I enjoy climbing (and training actually) and it it is a big part of my life and a big contributor to my overall happiness and life satisfaction. That by itself is probably enough, and I would probably still climb if that was all I got from it.
However, very rarely, maybe not even once a year, I do something that is particularly fantastic and pleasurable but that I also had to work really really hard for and give absolutely everything to achieve. Sometimes when I do that I get this feeling of absolute elation that is unforgettable and might even be worth it even if I didn't enjoy training at all. I know that in itself it might be a transient emotion, but I wouldn't want to never experience it, and I imagine some people might live their whole lives without never knowing what it feels like.
I could have a perfectly pleasant day climbing awesome 6bs, and that would be great, but I doubt I would ever be elated to get up one. That said, the grade hasn't been the determining factor in when I get that emotion or not. First 7B+, which was hard work, but problem wasn't that good, didn't get it. First 7c didn't get it, went too easily in a session and hands were like blocks of burning ice at the top so was too focused on the pain.
First 7b+ though, that was a feeling I'll never forget though. I'd probably find the route pretty straight forward now, but at the time it felt fucking amazing and not because of the grade for sure, but certainly partly because it was hardest thing I'd done and it was so good to flow up it after so many failed attempts.
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all right Buzz Killington.
Grades are great because they allow me to gauge my progress. Apart from pissing around on a glorious day, one of my favourite aspects of climbing (and most other activities I partake in) is progression. It's a great feeling when you've realised you've improved at something, particularly if you've put in the extra effort.
The joy I feel with success accumulates over time as I overcome more and more arbitrary challenges that I set myself #zenasfuck
edit: responding to Dan's last post, not monkoffunk's :)
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Buzz kilington hahaha
Hey all I’m saying is the rock has nothing to give but what you offer it. If you know how to stockpile ‘joy’ then pm me and I’ll flog it for a million quid. Ask Salt Beef he knows, cos he’s Zen as fuck and of the old school when men were men and drank a six pack of lager and ate a massive vindaloo as preparAtion. Moobs were an essential climbing asscesory
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I don't know how to stockpile joy, and I'm sure that suffering comes from desire and all that jazz, but I'm still glad I know what it feels like.
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Hey all I’m saying is the rock has nothing to give but what you offer it.
But you're arguing against offering focussed, planned training to the rock? Surely it follows that the people following their goal-based training programme are offering more to the rock and therefore getting more from their successes?
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Ah it’s a personal perspective shared. I enjoy climbing on a board as much as the next person. And certainly I’m not trying to tell people what to do or indicate there’s a right or wrong approach.
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Dan - a nugget of personal advice. I think a lot of the pushback you get from folk on here is because "trying to tell people what to do or indicate there’s a right or wrong approach" is exactly how your posts come across...
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Ask Salt Beef he knows, cos he’s Zen as fuck and of the old school when men were men and drank a six pack of lager and ate a massive vindaloo as preparAtion. Moobs were an essential climbing asscesory
;D
You'd be disappointed with the incredible physique he's rocking nowadays. He makes Hercules and Cacus look like a pair of school boys.
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I’m just here for the homo erotic flexfest
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Dan - a nugget of personal advice. I think a lot of the pushback you get from folk on here is because "trying to tell people what to do or indicate there’s a right or wrong approach" is exactly how your posts come across...
Cheers Stu. You know I’d probably never be so directly opinionated in person, certainly not without a lot of humour attached. I thought sometimes to stimulate discussion it’s good to take a bit of a stand on something that people might disagree with, and be ok with that. I’m almost sure that the majority reading my posts will shrug it off as spouted nonsense. I try never to say ‘do it like this or that’ if someone hears something which goes against their system then of course they’re going to feel lectured to. It’s a tricky balance to make a strong statement yet appear neutral at the same time. Maybe it’s an unconscious effort to force me to avoid Malham catwalk and the like, in case I have to justify the spoutings haha.
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Hey all I’m saying is the rock has nothing to give but what you offer it.
Isn't that one of those grand sounding phrases that could apply in an equally vague way to any activity/interaction?
Anyway what if a hold snaps? What if your really psyched and positive and happy and you stand on a dropped grape and slip off?
I find from doing first ascents that the experience can be great or mediocre as a direct consequence of the rock and it's not always obvious which way it will go from looking at the rock. So within my climbing ability the rock has an experience to offer which is to a large extent independent of my input. Also climbing can completely turn my mood around, so it is changing rather than mirroring.
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Hi Jon :wave: Agh, yes it is a sweeping statement that refers to any activity. Caught in a bit of a bind here. If I back up what I said I’m telling people what to do, if I agree with what you guys are saying fully that would be untrue. Either way I just re-read the original post and all it does is set out to question. No where in it is directive.
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If you think that your posts (including the OP) aren't hugely implicitly "directive" then you must have some amazing drugs
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You’re right of course. Not sure how to get around that other than not posting the questions / ideas at all. If you guys have got any suggestions? 👍
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I think you should copy and paste an enormous CAVEAT before each of your posts in big red letters.
Either that, or you can agree to a day at Raven Tor once a month where everyone can hit you with brickbats (inside bouldering mats).
Or, you could carry on and accept that people are going to feel directly criticised.
All work for me...
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Ask Salt Beef he knows, cos he’s Zen as fuck and of the old school when men were men and drank a six pack of lager and ate a massive vindaloo as preparAtion. Moobs were an essential climbing asscesory
;D
You'd be disappointed with the incredible physique he's rocking nowadays. He makes Hercules and Cacus look like a pair of school boys.
Archetypal Dadbod
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I know you love it really Stu 😉
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And there’s probably only about 3 crags I need to avoid to ensure I don’t face the bouldermatbrick bats of doom 😂
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I think your posts are mirroring personal questions which you have about your motivations and reasons for climbing Dan. Not everybody has the same questions and often reading your stuff it just comes across as a moot point as people have either come to their own conclusions or just don't care to think about it.
I'm sure you've put plenty of time in on a board as have quite a few people on here. Do you think that if that training time had paid off for you in a big way and you were smashing 8b+ bouldering problems, or knocking off the odd 9a route and consequently being further motivated to train, you'd feel compelled to ask these questions and invite the perspective of others ?
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If progress in climbing (as in progress in general) is measured on a horizontal axis, and the grade of a climb is part of that progress then the measurement of it can only exist in the past or future. When a climb or climber is reported as ‘9a+ for X’ or ‘bold ascent for Y’ or even if a future grade is sold to you e.g ‘train your max hangs and achieve 8b’ or you need ‘ancap’ before ‘aeropow’ or even practice ‘flow’ to conquer your fear. The climber has bought into or been sold an image of themselves, or even is selling an image of themselves to others. To be the ‘best’ in whatever way relies on the failure of others for success. When I watched free solo I was surprised to find the opposite of what I expected, a man determined to push barriers driven by ideas of success and failure which had been instilled since childhood by a particular parenting style. There was no choice in his decision to solo free rider it was preprogrammed.
I wonder what it would be like to do away with grades and paying attention to the reporting of these things? To ignore the horizontal axis and focus on the vertical instead. In this sense when you are hanging two crimps on a climb (say 8a) on the horizontal you have set out on an 8a with the intention of getting to the top of an 8a. On the vertical you are hanging to crimps on a wall,those two handholds and the experience of holding them are not ‘8a’ and in that sense do not symbolise success or failure and the personal experiences that go with those ideas. I wonder if this is where the deeply experienced dissatisfaction comes from as we attach meaning that isn’t there to others perceived successes and failures, which is fertilised by the manure of climbing press and self reporting. I quite like the summing up line of this poem-
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
In my beginning is my end.
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons.
TS Elliot
Dan you seem a bit stuck...many interesting questions and propositions...however you seem to favour a quantitive questioning whilst hankering after qualitative answers.
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Hi Jon :wave: Agh, yes it is a sweeping statement that refers to any activity. Caught in a bit of a bind here. If I back up what I said I’m telling people what to do, if I agree with what you guys are saying fully that would be untrue. Either way I just re-read the original post and all it does is set out to question. No where in it is directive.
:wave: Hiya Dan.
In answer to your op question. I think grades are a necessity in climbing, if they didn’t exist we’d inevitably use verbal proxies to less effectively perform the same functions. I’ve climbed in areas abroad without a guide and I found it mildly annoying. It’s just a lot easier to find something that has the right level of challenge if you have grades. Climbing without grades when you do new stuff is a whole different kind of challenge and the inconvenience is outweighed by other positive factors. Grades are also required for communication with other climbers. What would a beer garden chat about the relative merits of sea cliff E5s be if there was no such thing as E5?
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Sure maybe the title of post should have read. Grades and symbolism in climbing, what do they mean to you?
Thanks that’s cleared it up a bit in my head. And honestly I have no problem with objectivity as Andy and Jon said. Grades of course are a useful if not often wildly inaccurate / subjective way of deciding on your chosen route or boulder problem.
I think I’ve seen one to many climbing partners get sucked into chasing grades to their detriment in different ways.
Thanks for the input guys and while it may seem like I’m struggling with some sort of existential crisis and questioning my motivations. It’s honestly much less than it ever was. In fact I’ve not really enjoyed climbing this much in years, and climbed so many cool and challenging routes.
My working life involves encouraging people to develop a curiosity about their lives and often involving complex physical and mental health problems and life transitions. As I’ve started to enter Jung’s later stages of life, it’s been good to feel comfortable enough to ask a few complex questions without getting to het up about the responses.
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Your posts do seem to reveal a barely concealed disgust at the thought of people training or otherwise trying to "up their grade". For me, the main reason to try harder has always been to open access to a broader range of routes. If I was more confident on E3s I'd love to go and do the Roaring Silence. E4? Bloody Sunday and The Axe. It would be great if I could climb E5 so that I could go and do routes like The Cumbrian.
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the main reason to try harder has always been to open access to a broader range of routes
Yeah, this. And the fact that the majority (although definitely not all) of the lines that most inspire me tend to be hard. The given grade in that sense doesn't matter of course, but as others have said it's a useful marker.
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Your posts do seem to reveal a barely concealed disgust at the thought of people training or otherwise trying to "up their grade". For me, the main reason to try harder has always been to open access to a broader range of routes. If I was more confident on E3s I'd love to go and do the Roaring Silence. E4? Bloody Sunday and The Axe. It would be great if I could climb E5 so that I could go and do routes like The Cumbrian.
Maybe disappointment but not disgust or in people. Just the way it’s gone. Sure building a broad skill base is great to allow anyone to explore more territory in confidence. There’s not much of a relationship between training and e3 unless your doing laps on cabbage crack. Which is fun. More’s the point who cares what I think anyway. It’s not personal man so why should anyone feel criticised? I’m not even sure why anyone gives a monkeys and I certainly wouldn’t want most of my drivel taken seriously! Don’t you boulder like 7’s Will? That equates to at least e8 apparently
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I'll echo the thoughts of Will and Bradders above.
Dan, I think that my interpretation of your original post is towards the over-emphasis on "the number", the rating, and away from experience. Am I correct?
I can think of many (most?) situations where enthusing about particularly inspiring routes has nothing at all to do with the number assigned.
There are interesting interpretations of what a "sporting" experience means too.
8a.nu seems to emphasise the score, the number - it's about the league table. However, you can use grades to of course help select routes at the right level to have a "sporting" experience etc, but without it being anything at all to do with the number.
Sport can be about defeating others - putting at a lower level - or about rising to the challenge.
There is often too much of the former - not losing - rather than the latter - enriching.
I was actually thinking about the philosophy of numbers the other night, and the question of narrative in their use. I know that Johnny D would often use the grade as part of the attempt to capture the experience.
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;) Like giving Janus E7 7a because the grade looked like the parallel grooves?
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Grades as a symbol of something other than difficulty and the direct relationship with success. I’d wonder if we are unconsciously conditioned to respond to grades in a particular way and might feel more satisfied to cruise an e1 than to struggle on a VS. The hardest route I climbed last year was e3 which left me slightly confused, elated and disappointed somehow. Interesting you mention JD’s routes as on the high ball thread some have just been reduced to ‘font 6b+‘ with the suggestion that any ascent talked about carries with it ‘the illusion of difficulty’. I’ve heard that voiced before I think on Jam Crack and by Toby Benham? In XS? ‘I love gritstone [because] you get loads of respect for being weak’. I think that’s what Moo was suggesting before because I’ve trained and not ‘succeeded’ then the disdain arises from a position of bitterness and disappointment. No way man, I really enjoy climbing more now than for the past 20 years. It’s easy to denigrate a climb by calling it soft or font 6b+ rather than e8, you can see that on ukc logbooks time and time again. If you can’t be ‘good’ then reduce yourself and the routes and experiences because that’s what it’s all about? Fuck it, if you climb ‘End of the Affair’ you climb that, the history and mistique of treading that hallowed ground. Or it’s just a bold 6b+, get a life if you think that’s any achievement.
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Don't get me wrong Dan I basically agree with you up to about 95% I'm just not sure why you think what is true for you needs to be true for everybody else.
I personally think coaching for the vast majority of climbers is a waste of time and somewhat devalues the experience but if it makes them happy then I think crack on.
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Somehow you've taken completely the wrong sentiment from the highballs thread. I'm not sure how you've managed to get those impressions from it. I suspect you're imposing your own angst on what's been written there.
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Crikey it’s all in my head! Hey Pete, I now empathise with your repeated attempts not to appear sexist while still making a point.
Thanks moo, yeah live and let live man of course. Am I really bothered by sitting at the wall watching others do their programs? A bit. Have I done it myself. Yep. Do I project my own angst onto others. I wouldn’t be human if I didn’t.
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... reduced to ‘font 6b+‘...denigrate a climb by calling it soft or font 6b+ rather than e8...
Maybe 6b+ was used as a measure of difficulty rather than a measure of worth. Isn’t the conflation of the two what you were critiquing to begin with?
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Nah it was used as a measure of worth.
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Back in the mid 90’s I was at art college with this guy Jason Jones. His work involved ‘living Sculptures’ and human installations, often pretty disturbing in nature. Like JR but more messed up. He compulsively mixed up fantasy and reality in almost any interaction you had with him. So you were constantly discombobulated. What I mean is there’s always a subtext, and the soft grit one is ever present
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Are you one of the justified ancients of mu mu ?
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I’m just bitter about the million quid
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Right you asked for it. Time to sort this out.
If progress in climbing (as in progress in general) is measured on a horizontal axis, and the grade of a climb is part of that progress then the measurement of it can only exist in the past or future. When a climb or climber is reported as ‘9a+ for X’ or ‘bold ascent for Y’ or even if a future grade is sold to you e.g ‘train your max hangs and achieve 8b’ or you need ‘ancap’ before ‘aeropow’ or even practice ‘flow’ to conquer your fear. The climber has bought into or been sold an image of themselves, or even is selling an image of themselves to others.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Obviously there is a big market catering to, errr, performance as a measure of self-worth. Tick 8a and you will be more valid, have a bigger dong / smoother minge (no sexism here), etc. The same as everything else in society. What BMW series does 8a correspond to? Or is it Audi series these days? If an A3 corresponds to E3, I'm very happy.
BUT there is also the desire for challenge and progression for it's own sake and own pleasures. Learning, pushing yourself, discovering what you're capable of, putting effort in and reaping the rewards of that, enjoying the technical and mental stimulation of working something out - otherwise we'd all be climbing ladders, on top-ropes.
And guess what the simplest measure of that likely challenge is, in comparison to other challenges of varying degrees....
....GRADES :devil-smiley:
To be the ‘best’ in whatever way relies on the failure of others for success.
That is rather "glass half empty". The other perspective is it relies on the success of yourself - obviously that has to be slightly more than the success of others, but that doesn't necessarily involve relying on nor wanting their failure (failure to do what you are capable of). Is Ondra the best because he strives so determinedly for his success, or because he strives to do things that others cannot?
Answer: Neither, he's the best because he's having the most fun.
When I watched free solo I was surprised to find the opposite of what I expected, a man determined to push barriers driven by ideas of success and failure which had been instilled since childhood by a particular parenting style. There was no choice in his decision to solo free rider it was preprogrammed.
So people's personalities are partly formed by nature and nurture. Do we have free will or is it just destiny? Is the illusion of free will enough of a placebo? Could we even tell the difference? And if we can't, does it matter?
I wonder what it would be like to do away with grades and paying attention to the reporting of these things?
Possibly less interesting. Grades give us information about difficulty, and used in reporting they can give us interest in the feats being reported. This is not a qualification on the climber as a person, merely on their "feats". But knowing the level of difficulty of those feats in relation to what we already understand about climbing challenges can make the report more interesting and impressive and inspiring. Humans across the board like seeing "impressive" feats, as long as we don't get carried away with that as a measure of self- or other- worth, I think that's fine.
Ghisno I agree with all your points and think grades in a totally informative sense do direct us in the way you mentioned. What I’m curious about is the idea that there is no such thing as ‘success or failure’ other than the one created by our ego unconsciously. In this way grades are meaningless and is only a concept devised to support our ego’s (which is no bad thing). In my experience grades do appear to be used as a measure of ‘success’ and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is a choice to recognise that this isn’t a ‘fact’ but a product of the unconscious.
Success or failure can be reduced to whether you perform the task you set out to do - often, say, get to the top of the rock in the style you have chosen (unless it's top-roping in which case you've already failed ahem). Grades are merely an estimate of the likely chance of success or failure on that bit of rock based on your current abilities (abilities which are also roughly quantified - but not necessarily qualified - by grades). As such, they are full of meaning in describing that bit of rock compared to other bits of rock. What angle is it? How big are the holds? How far apart? What angle are they? What fissures allow protection? How well spaced are those fissures? What rock features allow placing of that protection? Reality, summed up by grades, honed over the years by comparison to other rocks and other grades. Trad grades in particular are a matter of objective science, describing facts about the rock. Sport grades almost as much, bouldering grades get a bit more subjective due to morphology.
The personal value one places on those grades can be an entirely different matter of course.
Going back to this....
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
Information is fairly useless in itself.
Knowledge is understanding of information.
Wisdom is the usage of knowledge.
Grade-wise,
Grades are the information
Knowing the grades is understanding what they mean, how they work, what they refer to (conversely some UKCers and Youtube commenters don't even reach this stage).
Having wisdom of grades is using them to estimate suitable challenges, recognising the variability and inaccuracies involved, measuring progress if desired but not getting fixated on them....indeed going back to acknowledging them as pure information.
Conversely...
Grades as a symbol of something other than difficulty and the direct relationship with success.
....suck. Tail wagging dog, ego wagging soul, etc.
I’d wonder if we are unconsciously conditioned to respond to grades in a particular way and might feel more satisfied to cruise an e1 than to struggle on a VS.
There's nothing mysterious about that. We have expectations based on the information given (unless it's as wildly speculative as Will's highball grades), and if the reality fails to meet those expectations, then we will feel something in relation to the discrepancy. If we expect E1 to be a bit tricky, and we cruise it, we feel we're climbing well. If we expect VS to be fairly straightforward and we struggle, we feel we're climbing poorly. Unless of course there are some of the many other factors involved - bad grading, morphology, conditions, style of climbing, mood and inspiration. Wiser climbers will take those into account.
The hardest route I climbed last year was e3 which left me slightly confused, elated and disappointed somehow.
Was it a good E3 tho?? Many of them are bloody brilliant.
Interesting you mention JD’s routes as on the high ball thread some have just been reduced to ‘font 6b+‘ with the suggestion that any ascent talked about carries with it ‘the illusion of difficulty’. I’ve heard that voiced before I think on Jam Crack and by Toby Benham? In XS? ‘I love gritstone [because] you get loads of respect for being weak’.
That reduction is only looking at the physical dimension... Font 6B+ is nothing..... Font 6B+ at 10m up, 6m above the gear, with holds you've never seen nor touched before, hanging on, working it out, no mistakes allowed....is stupidly fucking hard overall. The overall difficulty is no illusion. Being physically weak but mentally very strong deserves loads of respect.
I suppose if one wanted to sum it all up: Grades have quantitive meaning rather then qualitive.
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Beat me to it Matthew. That was beautiful.
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Ah ok I get it now ‘grades’ the currency of climbing. Maybe a better title.
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BUT there is also the desire for challenge and progression for it's own sake and own pleasures. Learning, pushing yourself, discovering what you're capable of, putting effort in and reaping the rewards of that, enjoying the technical and mental stimulation of working something out - otherwise we'd all be climbing ladders, on top-ropes.....
Grades have quantitive meaning rather then qualitive.
Super post. That sums it up.
I get why you don’t like the subtext of some rather chest-thumping reporting Dan, but as someone once said “there is no thing which is good or bad but that usage makes it so”. It’s not the grade but how it’s used.
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I think Dan is interested in how the experience of climbing is reduced to a series of numbers (quantitive). Of course this isn't the full picture, after the experience of climbing takes place all accounts of the experience are to a degree representations of that experience. This representational process can take the place of subjective and qualitative accounts, writing, drawing etc or they can tend/strive towards a more objective representation, for example photography. Grades are simply the most extreme qualitative approach rendering the climbing experience into numbers. Representations of climbing are tending towards the latter approach, the former being less marketable and accessible. Dan do you feel like you are forging a lone path? your videos/films certainly are made with the intention of representing the feeling and experience of climbing rather than an attempt at objectivity and conventional narrative for example.
Anyhow I didn't mean to write a reply, but got sucked in. I spent four years on a Phd looking at the failure of conventional forms of representation in accounting for the bouldering experience (or something like that ;)) I currently embrace a phenomenological approach in my attempts to understand bouldering, but I also enjoy the chasing of a grade.
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I don’t know about forging a lone path, but I probably do create that a bit by expressing the ideas in this way. I’m interested in things like fear, designer danger and control, nature and the interaction with manufactured experiences including routes, gear, style, gardening, manufactured ‘wilderness’. Aesthetics and lines are also important in movement and the rock, but not necessarily shared. When I made some films it was about interpretation, feeling, signs and symbols. I don’t think it ever became accomplished enough to feel more than a sketchbook. And certainly not a mature work. Symbolism and visual metaphor interest me as does states of consciousness, the unconscious, dissociative states and the interaction with the above. I’ve tried to express a few of those things here as the opportunity exists but also as a response to the changing times. Trying to keep the sub in the culture to some degree. If some of that comes across as overly negative or even preachy then it is what it is. To transcend the pursuit of grades is a worthy one in my view, but not possible for me either.
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I'm afraid I don't really know what you are talking about. You mentioned you went to art college, me too. Art college encourages many good things, but unfortunately it also encourages wooly language and obfuscation. My advice is be clear in the questions you ask and establish a context for asking them.
Your last post includes references to;
fear, designer danger, control, nature, interaction with manufactured experiences, routes, gear, style, gardening, wilderness, aesthetics, lines, movement, rock, interpretation, feeling, signs, symbols, visual metaphor, consciousness, unconscious, dissociative states, changing times, sub culture.
That's to much for me :o
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I don’t know about forging a lone path, but I probably do create that a bit by expressing the ideas in this way. I’m interested in things like fear, designer danger and control, nature and the interaction with manufactured experiences including routes, gear, style, gardening, manufactured ‘wilderness’. Aesthetics and lines are also important in movement and the rock, but not necessarily shared. When I made some films it was about interpretation, feeling, signs and symbols. I don’t think it ever became accomplished enough to feel more than a sketchbook. And certainly not a mature work. Symbolism and visual metaphor interest me as does states of consciousness, the unconscious, dissociative states and the interaction with the above. I’ve tried to express a few of those things here as the opportunity exists but also as a response to the changing times. Trying to keep the sub in the culture to some degree. If some of that comes across as overly negative or even preachy then it is what it is. To transcend the pursuit of grades is a worthy one in my view, but not possible for me either.
Just read my last post and it seemed a bit negative, I do think Dan that the things you are posting are interesting and much needed in the 'changing times' you mention.
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Hey no worries Andy, appreciate the post. I’m don’t mind a bit of negativity anyway. Balance and all that. Obfuscation and woolly language are a big part of art college. In psychotherapies it might be called intellectualisation or bull shit. In the corporate world, management speak or the emperors new clothes. I won’t get started on the physical therapies haha. I am conscious of that and would more say I’m interested in a complex range of topics and have lots of half formed ideas, most of which no one really wants to listen to. Sounding them out generates the clarity rather than starting with clarity, which to me might suggest I already know the answer.
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I
Hey no worries Andy, appreciate the post. I’m don’t mind a bit of negativity anyway. Balance and all that. Obfuscation and woolly language are a big part of art college. In psychotherapies it might be called intellectualisation or bull shit. In the corporate world, management speak or the emperors new clothes. I won’t get started on the physical therapies haha. I am conscious of that and would more say I’m interested in a complex range of topics and have lots of half formed ideas, most of which no one really wants to listen to. Sounding them out generates the clarity rather than starting with clarity, which to me might suggest I already know the answer.
In terms of clarity within the question being asked, I wouldn't say a clear question denotes that you already know the answer. If the question was more hypothesis that might work.
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True, it could definitely be more clear. I may just pop it on a web page and do some film making and photography rather than post it here. Saves pushing it on others and getting the ‘push back’ to quote Stu.
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There's nothing inherently wrong with the questions your asking Dan, far from it. I would simply venture its the style in which your asking, them which has caused the discussion to become a bit fractious. Maybe take it a bit more to the point and ask some more direct questions.
For instance this thread could easily have been entitled 'What do grades mean to you?' followed by your perception and with the responses from that you'd have grounds for a much more constructive debate. As it is your probably inviting people to try and shoot down your point of view a bit more than you may have realized at first.
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The idea of neutrality or seeking to not offend is an interesting one in its own right. In some ways it’s better for me (online at least) to be marmite than mild cheddar. I wasn’t really after a comfortable and productive debate. If I look deep inside it’s more of a fuck you to the establishment whatever that might be. Christ even the antiestablishment has now become the romanticised establishment with endless biographies about how great it was in the eighties and statement of youth being consumed by people in vw campers on MacBook Pro’s blogging from their gap year / career break in Margalef. I remember attending a ‘moon - Moffat training day in the mid 90’s at a small wall in the south west (I think a young el mocho was there looking stronger than the pair of them ironically) I decided recently that was infancy of all this. Cash, cars, grades, training, diets, success.
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fear, designer danger, control, nature, interaction with manufactured experiences, routes, gear, style, gardening, wilderness, aesthetics, lines, movement, rock, interpretation, feeling, signs, symbols, visual metaphor, consciousness, unconscious, dissociative states, changing times, sub culture.
You've found Dan's list of planned UKB topics.....he's not even halfway through :2thumbsup: :o
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The idea of neutrality or seeking to not offend is an interesting one in its own right. In some ways it’s better for me (online at least) to be marmite than mild cheddar. I wasn’t really after a comfortable and productive debate. If I look deep inside it’s more of a fuck you to the establishment whatever that might be. Christ even the antiestablishment has now become the romanticised establishment with endless biographies about how great it was in the eighties and statement of youth being consumed by people in vw campers on MacBook Pro’s blogging from their gap year / career break in Margalef. I remember attending a ‘moon - Moffat training day in the mid 90’s at a small wall in the south west (I think a young el mocho was there looking stronger than the pair of them ironically) I decided recently that was infancy of all this. Cash, cars, grades, training, diets, success.
Ha Dan it does seem a bit like forging a lone path when you are both antiestablishment and antiantiestablishment! You might be right about how we ended up where we are, but it’s not all bad you know.
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Don’t worry lads, I have a Wordpress app so I’ll put my tedious and implicitly directive ravings on there instead. In that way no one will get their knickers in a twist while doing their ancap base for the season.
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LOL you fud. I think we mostly all like your ravings AND agree with the principles and ideas if not all the specifics.
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"Cash, cars, grades, training, diets, success“
Success?
I get the sense that it isn't conflict that motivates you Dan, but the very unpopular alternative success that you're asking people to consider.
After all, the meaning is never in the grade anyway, as you say.
I think there is always a social currency in the reputation of certain problems and routes; the number is more like an accounting system.
What does the social currency (stroke economy?) satisfy, and why? How much do we need to cash in our kudos chips? We do it in so many ways.
What if we don't have to? What does it satisfy?
It follows fashions too.
Gone are the days of huddling around a Barleycup and brown bun at Stoney caf, as the common badge of allegiance to the cause. These days, you're more likely to be met with disdain if you claim your free mug of Nescaf, and not the double shot latte.
"'aving it" is today's success, but the pay-off was always there, even in having nothing.
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Hey thanks Moo, I just learnt all about ‘shoehorning’. Interesting how it is used, particularly by psychics. Common ground between politics and the paranormal. I like the bit about raving lunatics and green ink / ugly websites particularly. Not sure it’s deserved of negative vibes tho.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Shoehorning