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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Dave Flanagan on April 10, 2014, 08:46:43 pm
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It seems to me we all pay lip service to technique but that no one really has a clue how to train it. Ok beginners are told to focus on technique but other a few drills there isn't much information about technique training. Do elite climbers have 'perfect' technique?
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31 views and no replies - maybe no one else knows how to train technique either.
I know mine's shocking. I have quiet feet but bad footwork. My movement is poor, I'm not flexible enough I think. I've watched better climbers, traversed lots and asked enough people what I need to do and generally the answer is 'get stronger' or 'climb more'. Neither seem to have worked for me when it comes to climbing with better style. Climbing more just ingrains my faults and being stronger means I forget to focus on my feet.
Ah well.
Yours Faithfully
A.T.A.Loss
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As someone who earns a large part of my income from showing folk how to train technique, I think people opt to train strength and fitness because they are responding to the loudest intrinsic feedback from their body.
When you struggle/fail on a route/problem you'll get very clear feedback from your arms/fingers etc that you are physically exhausted, so the natural conclusion is to try and reduce that physical exhaustion by getting fitter. The internal feedback about body position, breathing, accuracy, momentum, speed of movement etc requires a higher level of awareness than most folk start the sport with, and it takes considerable deliberate practice to develop and exploit it.
At least that how it appears to me.. :shrug:
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Technique, strength and endurance used to be a by-product of going climbing. Where good technique was often the most important thing to get you up a problem or through a crux. Modern walls and training methods just have a different emphasis with generally more importance going to strength / power etc, climbing well or climbing can become the by-product of training. Technique I think come from loads of milage and experimentation on your chosen medium. E.g. Slabs. Cracks. Etc
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Quiet feet. Lol.
The problem with so many technique drills is that you can power through them.
Conversely so much so called "technique" is learning to apply strength/power in the most appropriate way and shouldn't be dressed up as anything else
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk
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You don't need technique if your strong enough. If you can't keep your feet on anything you just learn to pull harder to compensate. I've two friends who both boulder 8B one has exceptional technique the other has crap technique but is a beast and I'm pretty sure the one with no technique will eventually climb the hardest.
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I'd be really interested to watch someone climb an 8b with crap technique, which problem was it?
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In answer to the topic. Because it's easy explain how to train strength and it's easy to see and measure the gains. It's hard to correctly explain technique training and it's hard to measure technique gains.....
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Are you kidding Stubbs? Where's uncle when you need him? Has moger climbed 8B?
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Good question.
I'd be really interested to watch someone climb an 8b with crap technique, which problem was it?
Watch the three climbers on Bugeleisen (http://threerockbooks.com/index.php/contrasting-movement-styles/) (I think this might have prompted Dave's question) or different people in unclesomebody's Font. videos. Crap may be putting it a little strongly but clearly some are moving more efficiently than others.
In answer to the topic. Because it's easy explain how to train strength and it's easy to see and measure the gains. It's hard to correctly explain technique training and it's hard to measure technique gains.....
Mostly this and what thekettle said.
Because climbing has a minimal history of training and coaching and almost no research into climbing training, people have to borrow ideas from other sports and activities. Few activities have such a variety of movement as climbing and when they do (dance?) there seems to be little cross-fertilisation between the two.
Most people are not very good at analysing their own performance weaknesses so they do what seems to work for others without really thinking why it worked for them. Witness 20 years of belief that training strength would improve your endurance. It worked for Jerry because he had seven years of very high volume aerobic training (aka trad. climbing) behind him before his 'Revelation'. Most people didn't realise this or forgot about it or thought they could short cut the process.
We now are starting to see personal trainers moving into climbing coaching which is making things worse rather than better. They emphasise non-specific strength and 'conditioning' because that's what they know about. They have charts and jargon so people lap it up. There are some frighteningly clueless individuals operating at the London walls.
Clearly different people find different proportions of non-specific strength (or endurance) versus specific / skill training work best for them. Shark, you could ask Malcolm what proportion of his training was on non-specific strength and what was climbing-specific. I'd suggest his answer probably represents the upper limit of the proportion of non-specific training people should consider.
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Steph Davis has some blog posts on different aspects of technique (http://www.highinfatuation.com/blog/category/techniques/) (not all about movement though, some are about racking gear, or even how to piss whilst wearing a harness).
(Shouldn't this be in the Diet, training and injuries (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/board,4.0.html) sub-forum?).
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Watch the three climbers on Bugeleisen (http://threerockbooks.com/index.php/contrasting-movement-styles/) (I think this might have prompted Dave's question) or different people in unclesomebody's Font. videos. Crap may be putting it a little strongly but clearly some are moving more efficiently than others
So how would you rank them in terms of movement then? I see different styles that suit the different climbers.
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Watch the three climbers on Bugeleisen (http://threerockbooks.com/index.php/contrasting-movement-styles/) (I think this might have prompted Dave's question) or different people in unclesomebody's Font. videos. Crap may be putting it a little strongly but clearly some are moving more efficiently than others
So how would you rank them in terms of movement then? I see different styles that suit the different climbers.
Different styles, I don't see crap technique, everyone gets a little more slappy and messy when they are close to their limit. Anyone can float up their warmups.
Part of the problem is that it's so hard to pin down what is good technique.
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The internal feedback about body position, breathing, accuracy, momentum, speed of movement etc requires a higher level of awareness than most folk start the sport with, and it takes considerable deliberate practice to develop and exploit it.
At least that how it appears to me.. :shrug:
What about more experience climbers John do you think that it's possible for elite level climbers to improve their technique?
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You don't need technique if your strong enough. If you can't keep your feet on anything you just learn to pull harder to compensate. I've two friends who both boulder 8B one has exceptional technique the other has crap technique but is a beast and I'm pretty sure the one with no technique will eventually climb the hardest.
I assume the beast will struggle on 7b slabs? It seems to me everything is geared towards power, we train on steep boards on small holds and then go outside looking for rock similar to our boards. There isn't anything wrong with this, I wonder is it just a fad, in twenty years time will all the hardest problems be wacky 3D bridging problems?
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I assume the beast will struggle on 7b slabs?
Technique isn't just slabs though is it - heels, knees, toes, momentum are more important than slab technique if your goals are hard steep boulders or sport routes. E.g. Steve Mac has great technique for vert-ish stuff, Malham etc, but I bet could get schooled in the use of momentum on steep ground by climbers who might be considered 'less technical' by many..
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The internal feedback about body position, breathing, accuracy, momentum, speed of movement etc requires a higher level of awareness than most folk start the sport with, and it takes considerable deliberate practice to develop and exploit it.
At least that how it appears to me.. :shrug:
What about more experience climbers John do you think that it's possible for elite level climbers to improve their technique?
I think it's possible for pretty much anyone to keep improving. I think a lot about execution, when you've got the strength to do a move but you don't execute. I was trying a route in 2012 and so many times I'd get to the crux feeling good but just didn't execute the move even though I had it in me. I think the best climbers do this less than mortals. It's down to mental factors but I think it's an area that most people could improve but no one really thinks about much.
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Part of the problem is that it's so hard to pin down what is good technique.
Maybe because it's a moveable feast? ie good technique is efficient movement and that requires responding to the demands of the moment, sometimes delicate, sometimes brutal. Jerry and Anthoine LeMenestrel = two climbers with utterly different but good technique.
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I suspect part of it the issue is measuring gains. It's quite easy to see yourself getting stronger, you can measure this against campussing better/ doing harder stuff on the board etc. It's not as easy to measure an improvement in technique, and therefore there is probably less incentive to work at it. Maybe.
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Plus I think it's easier to train strength at home? Just about anyone can put up a fingerboard, pullup bar, or even a campus board at home, but setting up a home board where you have a variety of angles to concentrate on various techniques on isn't easy.
As abarrows says, why do so many people automatically think technique = footwork? It encompasses just about every aspect of climbing; using handholds well, executing movement from the right part of your body, moving shoulders and hips, using good "legwork" (as opposed to footwork) For example sometimes the most economical way of doing a move is to not use your feet at all; it's all horse for courses, and one man's meat is another man's poison (while we are having a metaphor feast).
Even something "relatively" straighforward like campusboarding requires a good technique to do properly and minimise the risk of injury.
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I think there's also a subtlety in terms of technique on hard moves vs technique on easier moves. I know people who have 'good technique' on moves below their limit, e.g. on routes, but crap technique on individual hard moves (this is often a momentum thing); others have great technique on hard moves, but then apply exactly the same style and technique to easier moves, which begins to morph into bad technique in that scenario.. So why don't people train it? 'Cos it's hard to train, and yet it's always being trained if you're being thoughtful about what you're doing (so you wont know whether someone is 'training technique' is doing so unless you're inside their head).. Climbing on a 45 degree board on basic problems there are often still things to learn about exactly what position your knee is in, how close your hips are to the wall etc etc, but again, you can't tell whether someone is working on that just by looking at them necessarily..
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Strength training get you the girls on the beach.
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Also, the best way to train it is, in my opinion, likely to be by doing stuff in the style of what you want to become better at, which for most people means climbing outside, which for most people is less accessible. Like Chris said.
I'm utterly unconvinced by shit like 'quiet feet', since it seems to me like it teaches you to place your feet overly slowly, thus teaching you to climb craply..
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Strength training get you the girls on the beach.
Unless it's Venice beach, good technique needed there too
Josh rings Venice Beach Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5S7uxma-2c#)
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I'm utterly unconvinced by shit like 'quiet feet', since it seems to me like it teaches you to place your feet overly slowly, thus teaching you to climb craply..
I would say this is the nub of it. How do you train "technique"? I've found having a period of time out and getting weaker due to having a daughter and illness has actually improved one element of "technique" - momentum and dynamic movement.
Coming from a trad background I move slowly, lock positions when it's not required and have a massive mental block with throwing for holds. Having come back weaker, I've found I have to throw more/move dynamically but am managing to climb nearly as hard, despite being significantly weaker.
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Training technique is so difficult because its so bespoke.
Different, height, weight, ape, morph, experience climbers all climb in different ways - and so use different techniques. Similarly different problems will require different techniques - again different for different people!
(I'm in danger of going Rumsfeld with the word different here!)
You can get an idea of how you can improve your technique from generic guidelines (body position, centre of gravity, ways to hold things etc..) but these will often be subtly different for folks...
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It seems to me we all pay lip service to technique but that no one really has a clue how to train it. Ok beginners are told to focus on technique but other a few drills there isn't much information about technique training. Do elite climbers have 'perfect' technique?
One of the things I recall from climbing in Font is watchign the chap with the v shaped scar on his chin repeating the same problem time after time, making it as easy and efficient as possible.
This is one way to improve technique (and I suppose strength etc at the same time)
Most elite climbers are to thin to have perfect technique, it's only us lard buckets that have mastered the dark arts.
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Pah - its us stick insects that have to use technique to get through those brawn moves you burlier types excel at!
:)
('nearly' mentioned long levers....) ;)
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Technique for me encompasses the skill of identifying what movement would be the most efficient (for you) to move through any given configuration of holds, as well as executing that movement.
The trouble is, the configurations of holds in climbing is pretty much infinite, as are the physical characteristics of each climber.
I remember reading judo training books when I was younger about movement 'schema' and open and closed skills. You can train the efficiency of a movement by repeating it over and over eg. a golf swing, or in judo a throw or armlock. You'd usually want to have a coach for this aspect so that they could feed back on your technique and make sure you're not ingraining bad or inefficient technique.
Then you'd do sparring - learning how to apply that movement schema against an opponent being an 'open' skill that requires practice in an uncontrolled way to develop judgement of how to apply technique against an opponent in a random way - judging their movements etc relative to you.
I think climbing has analogies with combat sports in this way as the movement schemas can be trained by repetition (i.e. repeatedly doing the same problem, practising egyptians or heelhooks or whatever in your warm up) but then there's an 'open' skill in assessing how to apply that movement on a new configuration of holds. That's the part where 'just climbing loads' is going to improve your technique, and there probably aren't any shortcuts.
However, you don't see many people drilling movements at the climbing wall - that's part of improving technique and isn't embedded in climbing training culture at all.
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However, you don't see many people drilling movements at the climbing wall - that's part of improving technique and isn't embedded in climbing training culture at all.
For me this would come in the sessions of working hard problems in the wall or on the board. If you do them in a session or two, you haven't got any stronger, but you have learnt the movement required for that particular climb and hopefully added it to your move database for future reference.
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Strength training get you the girls on the beach.
But Yoga is all year-round ;D
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Pah - its us stick insects that have to use technique to get through those brawn moves you burlier types excel at!
:)
('nearly' mentioned long levers....) ;)
Wait till you're married, the lbs will pile on.
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Wait till you're married, the lbs will pile on.
One of those two has already happened.
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I think for me it helps to work problems people who climb at a similar level then to talk about it whilst we try.
For example different body positions and how they feel. Also I think one thing people don't do enough in bouldering is just give a wacky idea a try, often I'll wonder if some crazy beta would work. Most times it doesn't but it gives you an idea of what other body positions feel like and what different muscles are being used. Things like the leg kick in cypher Cypher on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/36607731) (at 40s plus a few more), trying these sorts of things on steeper walls too, just to see how they feel
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Always strive to move as efficiently as possible, on the warm-ups as well as on your project. Think about the most efficient way to do every single move on every single climb you do. Closely watch every climber that climb the same route you have done/tried. Judge if they do the route/boulder problem better or worse than you, if you think they did it much better: try their solution to find out how it works for you.
If you do all of the above you will move as well as anyone and will astound people with your "strenght" and "endurance".
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Wait till you're married, the lbs will pile on.
One of those two has already happened.
Yup - just got down to pre-wedding weight a couple of weeks ago... MrsTT on the other hand......
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However, you don't see many people drilling movements at the climbing wall - that's part of improving technique and isn't embedded in climbing training culture at all.
For me this would come in the sessions of working hard problems in the wall or on the board. If you do them in a session or two, you haven't got any stronger, but you have learnt the movement required for that particular climb and hopefully added it to your move database for future reference.
Interesting. For me this is doing a circuit at a crag I know - ie Almscliff - where I'll have 8-10 problems I always do, and was the same today at Harmers.. After while you do hone your technique via repetition yes, though it could also be that I've got stronger over time! So this is part of my climbing culture - and I use it to get a feel for the conditions and to see how well I'm climbing - how the flow feels.
I guess the issue with repeating exercises at a wall - repeating the same circuit week in week out on every visit - is those darned wall owners re-set the problems every few weeks/months/years (depending on the venue of course!).
When I (rarely) go to the wall - in my warm up (doing all the v1's then v2's then v3's etc..) I try and do these in the best style possible. By that I mean I think about my body position, try to get open legged and hips close to the wall, be smooth and effective - and downclimb them all too...
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Doing the same problems 3 times per week every week for months on end is not technique training, it's ego massaging or warming up. Don't kid yourself.
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Doing the same problems 3 times per week every week for months on end is not technique training, it's ego massaging or warming up. Don't kid yourself.
I also enjoy doing the problems!! (but I dont do them 3 times a week every week for months!)
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On a related note: I know a guy who spent 6 months climbing on two routes. One of them the warmup (always the same route) and the other his project. After trying his project 3 times, 3 days a week, for half a year he managed to send the route, his first 8a (quite impressive for a 50 year old who started climbing when 45 and runs his own company as well). The week after he went to Kalymnos and promptly failed to red-point 7as.
Nothing but closed-loop skills.
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building very tall wobbly skyscrapers, not pyramids :)
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On a related note: I know a guy who spent 6 months climbing on two routes. One of them the warmup (always the same route) and the other his project. After trying his project 3 times, 3 days a week, for half a year he managed to send the route, his first 8a (quite impressive for a 50 year old who started climbing when 45 and runs his own company as well). The week after he went to Kalymnos and promptly failed to red-point 7as.
Nothing but closed-loop skills.
He'll soon forget about Kalymnos but the hard seige and tick will stay with him forever .
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Exactly. It's different for everyone, people mainly have to choose between loads of a certain grade or very few of another grade.
JWI's mate chose to train pretty much exclusively for what he wanted and did it. That's what training is to me, helping you to try and achieve a goal. The rest is just fucking about.
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That's what training is to me, helping you to try and achieve a goal. The rest is just fucking about.
Nail on head. Thing is... most of us like to fuck about too and whilst there's nothing wrong with that - training should lead to goal achievement. Nothing else matters during a training session.
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The internal feedback about body position, breathing, accuracy, momentum, speed of movement etc requires a higher level of awareness than most folk start the sport with, and it takes considerable deliberate practice to develop and exploit it.
At least that how it appears to me.. :shrug:
What about more experience climbers John do you think that it's possible for elite level climbers to improve their technique?
Sometimes, yes. Reasonably straightforward to spot gaps in movement skills in folk climbing f8c or less. Many notable 8C boulderers (usually the strongest ones) could move better, look to the scrawniest/least genetically gifted elites for the best movement. Like others' have said it's mega-complex and very personal so hard to dish out (or print) 'one-size-fits-all' advice.
Also quite easy to fall into the 'that's my style' trap - confusing cognitive ease with physical ease and taking the former to be an indication of movement effiency.
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Just ask The Dawes:
http://www.johnnydawes.com/learn-stuff/workshops/ (http://www.johnnydawes.com/learn-stuff/workshops/)
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I would have thought, the best way to train technique is to climb loads of stuff and analyse it empirically.
Use the feedback your body gives you like 'fuck, im off balance and having to work hard when I am front on here', to make the decision about your knee position and ankle direction etc.
Climb easy stuff well, analyse what works and what doesn't, improve and repeat.
Climb harder stuff well, analyse, improve and repeat.
Listen to what your body tells you consciously, as your sub-concious is always doing it.
By the same token I fully believe that if you climb with shit style and bad technique, your sub-concious and by extension central nervous system will become accustomed to that, much like people not warming up properly and similar. Your body gets used to climbing is a non-optimal state, and you don't fulfil the physical potential at that point.
I don't think you will ever manage to science it...