UKBouldering.com
places to visit => indoor walls => Topic started by: i.munro on February 08, 2012, 06:39:47 pm
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I'm curious what the consensus is on this?
I in the current weather nearly all the walls I use have closed off all ventilation.
I find this makes things really slippery ( lots of sweaty people = high humidity ??)
So two questions?
Is this a real effect (higher temps/humidity = less grip) or a figleaf of my imagination?
If you think it is real, then would you rather be warm or have more grip?
Ta
Feel free to insert 'sweaty box' jokes at will.
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You just need to use more chalk!
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My conditions gripes with walls are poor ventilation - at Logport wall the other sunday, you could barely see down the corridor for the chalk dust... and..
Shiny mats at walls get much grubbier than the felt covered ones (like at the depot) and make your clothes/hands etc.. far more chalky and dirty than the felt ones..
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Yes I think its a real effect, and I'd rather it be 'too' cold. However the reason for wanting it cold is about staying cool rather than grip, as its more pleasent to climb without needing a towel to mop up... the better grip is an appricated side effect!
I think the main thing to remember is you can put a jumper on/climb in trousers if its cold, but if you're hot in a pair of shorts there is not alot you can do...
The other day I headed to my local wall (which is pretty cold at the moment) with just a down jacket and t shirt. Wasn't the most pleasent warm up, as it was a bit of a too hot too cold situation, but fine once I got going. Solution was to bring a jumper to my next session which I climbed happily in for the first 30 mins, easy! Much better than turning up and sweating buckets which is unavoidable if hot. I'm not looking forward to climbing topless and in shorts again (indoors at least!) in the summer.
I think the issue of ventilation is equally important, but slightly seperate. Getting enough air through a center to keep the chalk, sweat, etc levels reasonable makes for a much nicer climb and should be happening whatever the weather outside. But I guess thats because I like it cold!
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Thanks for the replies.
So ( to paraphrase catfood ads) 100% of those who expressed a preference chose some ventilation.
However 160 odd views & 2 preferences would lead me to suspect that the vast majority are firmly in the "couldn't give a stuff camp".
Ooops! Must apologise to the staff at my local.
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Views aren't necessarily a reliable indicator as a proportion will have been bots/web-crawlers.
Personally I find over-crowding more of an issue than anything else.
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Views aren't necessarily a reliable indicator as a proportion will have been bots/web-crawlers.
A good point I hadn't thought of.
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Personally I find over-crowding more of an issue than anything else.
:agree:
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Personally I find over-crowding more of an issue than anything else.
:agree:
Me too but it doesn't really help with my current problem.
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Its the super chalky conditions that I hate the most, nothing else sets my asthma off any more apart from that. I would much prefer colder dryer and less chalky to warmer chalkier and damper.
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Personally I find over-crowding more of an issue than anything else.
It's not the crowding I mind as such, it's where the crowds choose to stand/sit. I visited some walls in the UK last week and saw com BMC posters advising people to always climb down/jump off in control. Bollocks. If I'm trying something right at my limit I might fly off in any direction at any time without any warning whatsoever, and it's up to the people nearby who aren't at bouldering at their limit at that particular moment to pay heed to that.
The bloke who looked suprised when I suddenly landed right next to him, swearing loudly, as I flew unexpectedly from the last but one hold on a near-success on a project at my local wall the other day would presumably have looked even more surprised if I had landed directly on his unobservant head, but he would have had equally little right to complain.
Instructors who encourage groups of kids to sit around underneath bouldering walls are the worst and should be shot[/rant]
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I visited some walls in the UK last week and saw com BMC posters advising people to always climb down/jump off in control. Bollocks. If I'm trying something right at my limit I might fly off in any direction at any time without any warning whatsoever, and it's up to the people nearby who aren't at bouldering at their limit at that particular moment to pay heed to that.
I think the point is that its safer to climb down when you are in control and below your limit.
If there weren't crowds in the first place though there wouldn't be an issue with where they choose to stand/sit. ;)
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+1 for Cold and well ventilated.
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I visited some walls in the UK last week and saw com BMC posters advising people to always climb down/jump off in control. Bollocks. If I'm trying something right at my limit I might fly off in any direction at any time without any warning whatsoever, and it's up to the people nearby who aren't at bouldering at their limit at that particular moment to pay heed to that.
I think the point is that its safer to climb down when you are in control and below your limit.
No disagreement on that, and I'm all for downclimbing aynthing above about 3 metres because I'm a pussy with 50 year old knees. But if you're in control all the time when you're bouldering, surely you're not trying hard enough.
If there weren't crowds in the first place though there wouldn't be an issue with where they choose to stand/sit. ;)
True, but then the wall might go broke and close down.
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Which walls do you lot go to where it's warm enough at the moment to want it to be colder just for ok conditions? I'll happily fall off a bit more to be warm enough to train properly on things longer than 5 moves.
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Which walls do you lot go to where it's warm enough at the moment to want it to be colder just for ok conditions? I'll happily fall off a bit more to be warm enough to train properly on things longer than 5 moves.
And to be able to feel my fingers during the first 45 minutes....
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In the London & around walls it's now become normal to change on arrival into board-shorts & a vest & if not immediately comfy
(ie before any attempt at warming up) complain about the cold.
It's also become completely normal for management to immediately run-around to deal with these complaints by installing even more heating.
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ventilation is a must for me.
I prefer cool, ventilated gyms, otherwise my hands go boiling after half an hour and I don't have fun.
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+1 for Cold and well ventilated.
:agree:
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I'd go for sub 10*C but the -1*C in the wall t'other day was a little tough on the pinkies.
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The thermostat is set at 5degs at my woodie to keep the water liquid in the pipes but tbh any lower than that and I find it takes too long to warm up my skin gets glassy and my feet get cold!
Saying that, one of my biggest gripes with commercial walls is that alot are too hot and poorly ventilated.
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Reading this thread makes me think I'm a freakily ectothermic lizard creature... either that or you lot all sweat like paedos at a paddling pool. In winter, if I wanted to climb in the freezing cold, spending more time thawing my fingers than climbing I'd go to a perma-dry outdoor crag. Spend a day shivering my bollocks off under Jokers Wall or the Calf, righteous in my appreciation of "conditions".
I go indoors to avoid cold. I want to climb at normal room temperature. Have a good three or so hours of continual cranking and go home to feed my aching muscles with cake - without having to dive into a downie between every go. Maybe I've got oddly dry skin (I only sweat to a problematic degree in direct sunlight in summer) but I find that dirty, infrequently changed holds impact my performance far more than a few degrees Centigrade. Any tiny differential in friction is more than compensated for by increased dynamism and limberness. Basically, if the staff are wearing downies they should install some more heating!
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Absolutely. There's good conditions and there's fucking freezing. TCA Glasgow over Christmas for example was fucking freezing, I shudder to think what it's been like in the past week or so. I was wearing three layers in there and spending a good chunk of my bouldering session wrapped in a blanket and huddled round a fire.
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I like any conditions that justify wearing a beanie but with my t-shirt off as the optimum temperature balance :2thumbsup:
TCA was fine on Monday and on Friday - t-shirt conditions last night, even had it off for a couple of problems where my tips were sweaty (didn't do the fuckers tho). Still grim warming up but I've got used to that.
I would happy with it being a tiny fraction warmer and having a couple of fans (or more ventilation but in the sodden Glasgow climate I suspect that would make things worse...).
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My shed was a balm 1/2 a deg C for the last session - great for grip, not so nice for the totsies but lifes full on compromises..
Better for the kin as well - less sliding off = less skin left on holds
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freezing for me and well ventilated is how i like it. i have never been cold climbing indoors but then again its about minus 5 in my workshop at the moment so i just dont feel the cold like some people because im used to it.
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I'm with Moose. Can't stand over cold conditions at the wall. Life's too short to spend more than an hour warming up at a wall. I'm happy to have body/muscle optimum conditions rather than hold/rubber optimum, even if that makes some slopers less useable. Cool but not baltic AND ventilation is preferable.
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What Bonjoy said: if you're climbing indoors for training it's only the relative difficulty of what you're trying that matters, unless you are bothered about the arbitrary grades the trails of plastic you are following have been assigned.
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As bonjoy and Stubbs. I'd rather climbing walls were not cold. I try to do a fair amount of endurance work / AeroCap / ARC stuff and if I wanted numb fingers I'd go to a crag.
In any case, I started climbing before 1989 when "conditions" were invented. Before then no-one climbed on the grit over winter because it was thought to be "green" and, well, bloody freezing and damp. Cold is over-rated.
The real problem with modern (London) climbing walls is that they are great training for 7a at Kalymnos, aka swinging around on blobs and generally having a laugh, but extremely poor preparation for UK trad. and sport routes, anything crimpy and vertical.
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As bonjoy and Stubbs. I'd rather climbing walls were not cold.
:agree:
Plus 1
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I'm with Moose. Can't stand over cold conditions at the wall. Life's too short to spend more than an hour warming up at a wall. I'm happy to have body/muscle optimum conditions rather than hold/rubber optimum, even if that makes some slopers less useable. Cool but not baltic AND ventilation is preferable.
Hold on guys I'm getting confused here. You're saying " Cool but not baltic AND ventilation is preferable." but that you agree with Moose who seems to want room temps i.e. staff in t-shirts.
In the nature of things for 3-4 months the temps outside are between 0 & 10 deg.
Now shirt-sleeves is generally defined as around 21 deg c.
Given decent ventilation warming all that air by 10 deg is going to be expensive & I don't think people want to pay that .
So I reckon our choices (in winter) are something like
!) Good ventilation & outside temp plus a few degrees. ( say 3 - 13)
2) No ventilation & room temps (say 18-21)
3) No ventilation & somewhere in the middle (say 13-16)
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I was agreeing with the general thrust of Moose's comment as opposed to all the ice lovers before him, but you're right room temp (if it's anything like the office i'm in now) is too warm. It wants to be warm enough so that your toes don't go white in your shoes and you can warm up quickly, but not so warm that you start sweating all over the place, I'd guess at between 5 and 12 degrees being good. However this means in an ideal world walls acting to raise temps on some days including keeping windows closed if needed. Although you might be right that most of the time the indoor temp in an unheated building with a few windows open in this country is not very low, those few cold periods do tend to coincide with high wall use.
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I'd guess at between 5 and 12 degrees being good. However this means in an ideal world walls acting to raise temps on some days including keeping windows closed if needed.
You're right. Perhaps this is the question I should have been asking all along. (although I think I've established that people do care even if they don't agree)
At what sort of (inside) temp do you think the management should be closing windows/vents?
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When >= 80% of users wish them to be.
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When >= 80% of users wish them to be.
Not 51% ? :shrug:
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Got to have a clear majority.
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I don't think they should be closing vents. Whilst really baltic conditions aren't my first choice, I'd rather that than poor ventilation. In general I'm very rarely cold once warmed up (you lot just aren't working hard enough ;)), and more layers during the warm up works okay at limiting the discomfort (though a bit of aero to raise the heart rate before a session makes the most difference).
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Got to have a clear majority.
It'd be a brave manager who ignored half his customers.
How about 50% but any knob turning up in shorts in Feb then moaning just gets politely directed to the shop :-)
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Got to have a clear majority.
It'd be a brave manager who ignored half his customers.
How about 50% but any knob turning up in shorts in Feb then moaning just gets politely directed to the shop :-)
You might want to think about the logic you're trying to invoke there (20% != 1/2 and the 'minority' of 49% you proposed isn't a million miles off ignoring half your customers!). You're not a First-Past-The-Post proponent are you? :fishing:
It'll always be a case of pleasing some of the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time. :devangel:
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Got to have a clear majority.
It'd be a brave manager who ignored half his customers.
How about 50% but any knob turning up in shorts in Feb then moaning just gets politely directed to the shop :-)
I know a wall manager who seems to ignore 80% of his customers ;)
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The real problem with modern (London) climbing walls is that they are great training for 7a at Kalymnos, aka swinging around on blobs and generally having a laugh, but extremely poor preparation for UK trad. and sport routes, anything crimpy and vertical.
:agree:
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There's some fucking horrible looking vert crimpy >7a climbs at the Castle on the areas next to the campus board and on the top floor. I would go near them with a barge pole, but if you think you need to climb vert crimpy stuff inside to be good at it outside have at it!
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Never mind you might soon get a chance to visit Ratho, which is as well ventilated and cool as you like. Only place I have ever seen people leading with duvet jackets on.
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I go indoors to avoid cold. I want to climb at normal room temperature. Have a good three or so hours of continual cranking and go home to feed my aching muscles with cake - without having to dive into a downie between every go. Maybe I've got oddly dry skin (I only sweat to a problematic degree in direct sunlight in summer) but I find that dirty, infrequently changed holds impact my performance far more than a few degrees Centigrade. Any tiny differential in friction is more than compensated for by increased dynamism and limberness. Basically, if the staff are wearing downies they should install some more heating!
:agree:
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walls should be warm enough to warm up easily and minimise the risk of injury, and just about stick a jumper on between routes / problems to stay warm. sliding around on every hold with greasy sweat so you trash your skin is too warm.
Duvet jacket temps are colder than ideal; the wall i climbed at this time last year in Kualar Lumpur was distinctly warmer than ideal - being a greenhouse on top of a giant shopping mall, i suppose it would be. For anyone interested: http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Climbing_in_and_Around_Kuala_Lumpur_1116.html (http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Climbing_in_and_Around_Kuala_Lumpur_1116.html) Toasty!
My current local the Quay usually seems to be about right, by chance or design i don't know! The foundry is usually pretty ok too?
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I've been to that place in KL, it's a lot more pleasant later in the day when the sun gets lower. I liked how you could look around from the top of a route and see real mountains behind you.
The Arch has been managing to maintain good temps over the winter, a few times I've had my jumper on for the whole session but I've never had to get my jacket out the locker.