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1
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by petejh on Today at 07:17:00 pm »
I don't think it's fair to say that either sport or bouldering development requires more or less work and expense.

Nah, this doesn't hold water. Developing is hard and time consuming work. Developing sport routes is always going to be, on average, more work than boulders. Yes there are plenty of routes where the crag is easy access and you can walk to the top drop a rope, and the rock's immaculate, and vertical or less than, and the bolts go in quickly because you can access the rock not be swinging 6 feet away from the rock, and the moves are obvious. But this is maybe 1% of the time. And yeah there are boulders miles from anywhere which are massive and have to have huge cleaning efforts and elaborate patios, but again in a minority.

To illustrate why routes are harder to develop than boulders you only need to look at why boulders traverses are easier to work the moves on than sport routes. The difference in effort and logistics of working out moves, which dictates where bolts need to go, should be obvious.
And something you can pop a ladder against or drop a 5m bit of rope down is in a completely different league of workload/time to a 20m long and overhanging new route - which just to access the face to touch the holds, let alone get purchase to create opposing force to be able to drill bolts into rock - requires you to aid bolt/aid on gear your way up or down the cliff. Then you have to work the moves on a rope and realise you've misplaced the bolts for clipping onsight. Total ballache but strangely addictive.

Showing a lack of experience of developing routes there sorry Liam.
2
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Kingy on Today at 07:07:57 pm »
To take Smith Rock as an example, from the recent interview with Alan Watts on the Written in Stone podcast, Alan mentions that it took him 7 days of work to bolt and prepare To Bolt or Not to Be before ot was ready to be climbed. Jibe Tribout asked Alan permission to try it and this was given then Jibe sent it in 1986.

Alan was working on another 5.14 called Bad Man which was a mess and required a similar amount of cleaning of friable holds, gluing and bolting, hard manual labour. He had a specific conversation with Jibe about this and asked him to stay off it as he had fallen off the last move and wanted to get the FA as it meant a lot to him (his fingers were injured and he could only climb a few days per week). Jibe flew in and snagged the FA without consulting Alan which local climbers informed him about, saying it was a low act.

There is another climb in Aggro Gully called 'Scene of the Crime' which received a similar treatment by Jibe. Apparently his justification was that it would have been OK in France. Alan mentions that he was OK with Jibe doing Just Do It, which he had bolted in 89 and gave permission for Jibe to try.

The podcast is well worth a listen! 
3
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Liamhutch89 on Today at 06:37:26 pm »
It's slightly different though, developing a bloc from which you do some, but not all, the first ascents (I assume - apologies to Liam if not) and developing a sport route that someone else does. I also think you are underestimating the time (and expense) it would take to develop 5 20m sport routes in many places in the UK. Personally I've cleaned up a few blocks (3 days in a boiler suit scrubbing the lower half of Sheep Buttress springs to mind) that I never considered having any closed projects on, but I would be narked if I equipped, glued, and cleaned a sport route in the Peak that someone nicked.

I do think context is very relevant though. Whacking a few bolts in a last great problem type route on perfect rock then bagsying it for several years is very different to cleaning and fixing up some slightly chossy, overgrown and ignored limestone route. Also bear in mind the degree of care some people take to make the routes good. KC in particular has converted some previously grim bits of rock into gems.

Then there's the practical aspect - many (most?) sport routes in the UK would probably not have been equipped if there was a real risk that the equipper wouldn't get to do the FA.

On the boulder I'm most proud of opening, I managed to get 1 FA, but it wasn't the first line on the block and I advertised it to everyone before anything had been climbed. I just thought it would be more fun climbing on it with other strong climbers?

I don't think it's fair to say that either sport or bouldering development requires more or less work and expense. It obviously depends. Imagine a completely hypothetical scenario where to avoid doing anything illegal, local climbers seek and acquire the permission of a landowner to develop the best bouldering area possible. You could not only brush a few blocks, but break and shift hundreds of tonnes of rock that is blocking boulders with potential, craft perfect landings on steep hillsides, clear as much vegetation as needed, glue and stabilise holds, etc. of course, I would not recommend doing this without permission.
4
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by duncan on Today at 06:34:33 pm »
What would Jibé or Patrick do? (from 4'01")



I miss the skullduggery of climbing in the 80s!  Mind you, I might think differently had I been on the receiving end. I had trad. routes I'd inspected/cleaned and envisioned with no fixed gear being climbed by others after adding pegs or bolts to take the sting out of them but that's a separate discussion.

5
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by thunderbeest on Today at 06:08:14 pm »
I also suppose it might be easier to figure out who's put bolts in the wall than to figure who brushes the boulder, as there's been so many crowds in the last 30 year. Or even to be sure that it was brushed at all. A lot of older groups had the attitude to not tell about ascents either..
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Ru on Today at 05:15:09 pm »
I’m pretty sure Liam has spent more time developing that massive roof (see weeks) in hawkcliffe than most developers would do bolting 5 20m sport routes and yet he has been more than happy to give it away for others to do.

It's slightly different though, developing a bloc from which you do some, but not all, the first ascents (I assume - apologies to Liam if not) and developing a sport route that someone else does. I also think you are underestimating the time (and expense) it would take to develop 5 20m sport routes in many places in the UK. Personally I've cleaned up a few blocks (3 days in a boiler suit scrubbing the lower half of Sheep Buttress springs to mind) that I never considered having any closed projects on, but I would be narked if I equipped, glued, and cleaned a sport route in the Peak that someone nicked.

I do think context is very relevant though. Whacking a few bolts in a last great problem type route on perfect rock then bagsying it for several years is very different to cleaning and fixing up some slightly chossy, overgrown and ignored limestone route. Also bear in mind the degree of care some people take to make the routes good. KC in particular has converted some previously grim bits of rock into gems.

Then there's the practical aspect - many (most?) sport routes in the UK would probably not have been equipped if there was a real risk that the equipper wouldn't get to do the FA.
7
Anyone know if Trowbarrow or Warton are dry at the moment? (I don't mean literally now, I mean if they've been seepy recently)

For my sins I was at trowbarrow today! It was a little bit seepy first thing, but soon dried. It’ll be fine this weekend.
8
conditions reports (isitgreasy on twitter) / Re: Woodwell Conditions
« Last post by jeh on Today at 04:09:19 pm »
I have climbed at Trowbarrow a few times within the last few weeks, and have friends that have climbed at Warton successfully. Both dry quick with a breeze, but can seep again quickly if its rained
9
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by stone on Today at 03:57:05 pm »
But seriously, how hard is it to just text someone and ask about a line?  How lazy are you that you will whine about a 'closed' project yet won't pick up the phone let alone the drill, hammer , brushes etc.
Seriously you can GTFO with that attitude.  I've had this conversation in person many times and I just tell the wads to bolt their own projects, tell them a half dozen options, then mention how being a repeater of routes add nothing to the community.
There is zero chance of me being a route stealer myself. I'm about as far from being a wad as is conceivable, and am comically slow at working through the plethora of suitable existing routes close to where I live. As such, I thought I was just the person to bring up the subject on behalf of the wider community because many people aren't in that circumstance.

In the UK, there have been a few cases where prime routes have been kept closed for decades by developers who weren't able to climb them. People who asked if they could be opened were told no. The developers hoped to improve their climbing ability and so in the future be able to climb them. That's the behaviour I was questioning.
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chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Dingdong on Today at 03:15:42 pm »
I’m pretty sure Liam has spent more time developing that massive roof (see weeks) in hawkcliffe than most developers would do bolting 5 20m sport routes and yet he has been more than happy to give it away for others to do.
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