UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Nibile on September 28, 2013, 11:51:27 am
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I tried to search a little bit over here but didn't quite get it. I get really confused by the terms AnCap, AnPow, AeroCap, AeroPow.
On the Net you find that they are energy chains and you also find how to train them for aerobic sports like running or cycling but I'd like some info that's climbing specific.
Let's see:
- AnPow. Anaerobic Power. Train single or few moves at max. No pump.
- AnCap. Anaerobic Capacity. Train sub-maximal efforts, repeated. Like 3 laps on a boulder problem with little or no rest in between. Good pump.
- AeroPow. Aerobic Power. Train easier, longer sequences, repeated, to get really pumped.
- AeroCap. Aerobic Capacity. Train on long long sequences, extreme pump. Or is the kind of training that you do for increase vascularity, climbing on really easy ground for tens of minutes?
Is the above right or wrong?
In the detail. I want to climb a route. The route is 20 moves long. I am training in various ways, including a couple of sessions of what I think is PE. AeroPow? AnPow?
I have an 11 moves problem on my board, and I do it 3 times in a row, with only the rest time needed to jump down, chalk up and start again.
I do five sets of this. I get horrendously pumped. The moves are not too hard but not too easy: I complete the 3 goes initially, then I start to fail on the 3rd, then on the 2nd but I finish the set.
What am I doing?
Am I wasting my time?
What should I do instead?
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Example here. Last set of the session.
Power Endurance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkTIhmRgh1I#)
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Hi nibs,
When do you want to be in good shape for the route?
How many good attemps/session and sessions/week would you like to have on it?
How do you currently feel on the route?
Is recovery between attempts a serious limiting factor?
Is there any non-physical quality that is limiting you on this route and you are willing to work on on a bit as well?
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I thought I had it figured out but reading the Binney pdf cover to cover again i realized i knew fuck-all. Spent about an hour figuring out what he is really saying.
First of all his AnPower seems different from what most of would consider power. He actually defines it as "increase the percentage of anaerobic capacity you can sustain for your climb" so I think most of us would consider this a form of top-end Anaerobic Endurance.
If I'm reading it right, Nibile, your routine of doing the 11 move problem 3 times with small rests is almost his definition of AnCap but the rest interval is too short, pushing it towards his "AnPower". (Since his AnPower is still a kind of Anaerobic endurance that may not be a bad thing.)
By his definition, AnCap would be 10-15moves with a rest interval of 1 to 1.5 times the exercise time, so a rest of 60s would be about right. You would do a few sets of these with substantial rest in between each set.
This is strictly going off the Binney PDF though. I'm sure other people will have their own ideas.
- AeroCap. Aerobic Capacity. Train on long long sequences, extreme pump. Or is the kind of training that you do for increase vascularity, climbing on really easy ground for tens of minutes?
With AeroCap I think it is the latter - vascularity/capillirization. Pump should be slight or very manageable and i believe it is about the time on the wall "tens of minutes" as much as it is the # of moves.
His AeroPow is really interesting but I haven't quite figured out what "increase the percentage of aerobic capacity you can sustain during a climb" means. (Increase the anaerobic threshold??)
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Barrows will probably ritually flog me about for saying this, but I think most climbers would benefit more from just splitting training into levels based on number of moves (e.g. Anpow=> boulder problem length, Ancap=> 13-16 move circuits, Aeropow=> 30-40 move circuits, Aerocap: traversing on jugs for 15-20 minutes) and then actually going training instead of spending hours and hours poring over textbooks and journal articles about swimming training and trying to calculate what you're actually intending to train.
Again,for most people, if you want to climb a specific route X, it would probably work to try and recreate the style and length of the route but at a level that you can just about lap, then do sets on it. Then make it progressively harder (smaller holds, bigger moves, shorter rests between reps) until you can crush. /ref{Malc on Hubble}.
People get into the geekery because they're very psyched, and they also get strong because they're very psyched, but Stevie Haston climbed a 9a by doing 1000 pullups every day and I'm sure that doesn't isolate any of the energy systems du jour.
(Nibile, I'm not saying you shouldn't get into the geekery, just that a lot of people get into the geekery who I don't think need to)
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That. :agree:
..the energy systems du jour..
I think as long as you understand the principles of training (especially specificity), and lets face it it's not rocket science - more discipline, then it's not worth trying to make someone else's terminology fit if it doesn't seem intuitive very quickly.
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I agree with the thrust of your post about doing being the important part. Lots of people definitely get overly obsessed with tinkering.
I believe the Spanish break thing up as follows (with rough equivalent in brackets)
short boulder
long boulder
short resistance (~an pow)
long resistance (~aero pow)
continuity (Arc, aero cap)
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Aeropow=> 30-40 move circuits,
I'm not sure "AeroPow" is what most people think it is either. Binney talks about 10-20 move circuits at an intensity that is "the level of the climb you are trying to do" with short rests in between.
pretty unintuitive. On the other hand I'm curious about what it actually trains.
Sorry if I geeked up the thread but at the same time if you're using the guys terms, why not understand what he's really saying?
(just trying to justify an hour i will never get back :'()
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Hi nibs,
When do you want to be in good shape for the route?
How many good attemps/session and sessions/week would you like to have on it?
How do you currently feel on the route?
Is recovery between attempts a serious limiting factor?
Is there any non-physical quality that is limiting you on this route and you are willing to work on on a bit as well?
Ciao beast.
I don't have any specific timetable at the moment, I'm trying to stay motivated waiting for a good opportunity!
I have tried the route once three years ago, with two goes on the first part, of about 8/9 moves. I still have to try all the hard bit.
So the plan is to hit the board for another four weeks - I just finished the first four weeks - and see how things go: if I do all the moves or not, and if I do, how and when I get pumped, and the likes.
Or I'll just go there and climb it.
I can't try it regularly because it's five hours away.
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- AnPow. Anaerobic Power. = malc's one armer
- AnCap. Anaerobic Capacity. = weak
- AeroPow. Aerobic Power. = weak
- AeroCap. Aerobic Capacity. = weak
HTH :strongbench:
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I started the thread because I was very confused by the terms.
I feel that I'm training well for this thing, I improved from 8 to 11 moves problems to do the 3 laps. I was wondering if I should cut the rests to almost nothing, but the problems I use are a bit hard to repeat with absolute no rest. Plus, my holds are still rough and skin is a bit of an issue. I can't chose better holds because there aren't any.
I don't want to be geeky, but given the very limited amount of time, I want to train smartly. Since I always thought I was training smartly even when I was just doing dozens of pull ups on edges, I thought about asking for feedback.
I set a 30 moves problem yesterday to work as a test.
As soon as I'll try the route I'll be more precise.
I am very curious to know if I can at least do all the moves, that would be a great start.
Thanks for the replies, keep them coming.
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- AnPow. Anaerobic Power. = malc's one armer
- AnCap. Anaerobic Capacity. = weak
- AeroPow. Aerobic Power. = weak
- AeroCap. Aerobic Capacity. = weak
HTH :strongbench:
;D
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Good words Ian and Alex. They both sum it up in different but applicable ways and Ian generalises well, despite his fear of a Barrows flogging.... which of course, we all fear!
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i would quote some stuff from "the self-coached climber" as that book is rather good at energy systems for climbing, but i lent it out, and it has been years since i read it.
I feel that I'm training well for this thing, I improved from 8 to 11 moves problems to do the 3 laps. I was wondering if I should cut the rests to almost nothing
but just from experience, if you are doing 30 moves times 5, for a 20 move route, that sounds alright. i wouldn't cut down on the rest in between sets, rather make the moves harder (if the route is harder) or do an extra lap (40 moves instead of 30) because lead-climbing always counts for extra moves
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Barrows will probably ritually flog me about for saying this, but I think most climbers would benefit more from just splitting training into levels based on number of moves (e.g. Anpow=> boulder problem length, Ancap=> 13-16 move circuits, Aeropow=> 30-40 move circuits, Aerocap: traversing on jugs for 15-20 minutes) and then actually going training instead of spending hours and hours poring over textbooks and journal articles about swimming training
Yeah I agree with this. I think the other important thing from Binney is also how long each system actually takes to adapt to the training effectively.
As I recall:
Ancap: takes >8 weeks to actually be embedded. I think ancap training has the potential to produce muscle hypertrophy.
Aerocap: also takes >8 weeks to actually see physical adaptation.
Aeropow: 4-8 weeks to adapt to
Anpow: Also 4-8 weeks to adapt to
I think the latter two are generally what people think of as 'power endurance training' - i.e. circuits and boulder 4x4s and basically getting really pumped and not taking too much rest.
The other thing that confused me in the past was thinking that this was a comprehensive list of things you need to train for climbing, but it's actually a list of endurance systems.
So doesn't cover real strength or power training at all.
Nibs, I think the key thing for you is to focus on the fact that your route is 20 moves long. So you need to be able to do 20 moves at the same intensity of those on your route and have a little bit spare for clipping etc. I'm no expert but I'd have thought training more than say 25-30 moves in a set is a waste as you won't get the intensity right.
Depends if you want fitness just for this route or for routes more generally I guess.
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Nibs, I think the key thing for you is to focus on the fact that your route is 20 moves long. So you need to be able to do 20 moves at the same intensity of those on your route and have a little bit spare for clipping etc. I'm no expert but I'd have thought training more than say 25-30 moves in a set is a waste as you won't get the intensity right.
Depends if you want fitness just for this route or for routes more generally I guess.
See - this is why I think sometimes the nerding is justified and the idea of specificity is over-rated. In a 20 move power endurance route you will also need aerobic fitness. A well-trained aerobic fitness system will mean much more recovery in the brief periods where you move your hands. This then puts less demand on the anaerobic systems etc.
Definitely anaerobic training will be the most important thing for your route, but neglecting the other aspects is a waste...
So Nibs - keep doing the longer stuff as well. It will pay off, even for short routes.
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Good point. Just goes to show that it is impossible to load the various energy systems in the muscle independently.
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Something Steph Davies makes at the end of this article on training Endurance (http://www.highinfatuation.com/blog/training-for-endurance/) in saying to work on power too as they complement each other.
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In the first 3 weeks I've done at least four sessions a week, like this:
First session, max hangs.
Second, max system (pinches, jumps, etc).
Third, max bouldering.
Fourth, PE.
Fifth, PE.
In the fourth week I only did three sessions:
First, PE (very strong).
Second, PE (strong but more pumped, less volume).
Third, endurance (20+ easier moves, super pumped).
I wonder how any of you could think that I was neglecting power... ;)
At the moment I can't be more precise, because I only tried the first half of the route. So I still don't know whether I can do the moves in isolation or not. I bet I can... ;D
The idea is: do the moves first, link them second, that's why three sessions are for power.
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is there a UKB rule that says "though shall not ask which project"?
:read:
otherwise someone would have asked, right?
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:offtopic:
is there a UKB rule that says "though shall not ask which project"?
:read:
otherwise someone would have asked, right?
It's an unwritten rule!
;)
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It's an unwritten rule!
;)
often the most important ones
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I can't try it regularly because it's five hours away.
:)
this also means that the ability of recovering well between attempts and between days is not to be underestimated.
The french competitor way to train this would be to kill yourself with a big volume of everything* in an early cycle, then switch to a volume intensive yet varied climbing phase (managing to fit in 2-3 brief morning strenght sessions/week, steadily increasing amounts of specific endurance, steadily decreasing low intensity volume, tech drills such as speedclimbing warmups), then a final phase of specific work at the hardest possible intensity.
Notice that the switches between "phases" happen gradually over 2-3 weeks - you can also think of the central phase as a very long switch between general and specific work if you like.
anyway the problem for humans having day jobs and a life is that the first two phases are quite time consuming...
you can still pick some of the original idea and if you can afford it, put in a couple of extra sessions per week of "something else than circuits and repeated boulders" just for 1 or 2 cycles (not the very last before a possible trip date of course)
also, having limited time to work the route means that you don't have a lot of time to find out the best beta/timing/flow, you need to work out something that's 95% good quickly and then give it 105%...
A good idea of related "extra session" would be to focus on flashing/climbing in limited tries unknown boulders/traverses/short routes.
Of course you need to find out a training partner who can set problems and eliminates for you or/and regularly visit venues other than your board.
If it gets friendly competitive (enough to make you feel an enjoyable pressure, as when playing the last balls of a tight calcio balilla match) even better.
i'm sorry none of what i wrote is directly related to training nomenclature as it is the reflection of another training school... hopefully you can pick up the best ideas of both though! :)
*in the french coach's dreams, that means 30% low intensity/hi volume climbing, 30% specific strenght (hard bouldering, hangboard, campus), 30% general activities (weights, circuit training, cardio, silly games, etc). They almost don't do specific endurance work here. I think they are not too strict about the content of this phase as long as the athlete is happy to do a shitload of work though...
ps
hang a couple of draws to your board, tie some rope around your waist and clip them every x moves-unless you've been doing tons of roped climbing lately.
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:bow:
Cheers beast.
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So I set a 30 moves circuit on my board to be used as a test.
The training is definitely paying dividends, and I am currently able to put 21/22 moves in a row!!! I completed the whole circuit in two halves.
The first ten moves are easy, the second ten are a bit harder on their own, and the last ten moves are definitely harder on their own.
So I'm trying to put together increased pump with increasingly harder moves.
Still have to practice clipping, though.
It's fun and a new challenge for me.
A good lap - for me - in this video:
Testing Testing One Two Three... on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/76795506)
As usual, suggestions are welcome.
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As usual, suggestions are welcome.
A tactic I was shown that has worked well for me on circuits is to start at say move 5 so that you complete the 30 move circuit pumped/powered out, then work backwards, starting at move 4, then 3 etc. Good for motivation rather than falling off the same move later in the circuit if/when you hit a bit of a redpoint crux.
Also, this circuit looks good for forearms, but the first half or so doesn't seem to have many bigger moves. Probably stating the obvious, but does it replicate the moves on the route you're trying?
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Hi Nibs,
A few ideas:
1. Moves look a bit too small as TB said.
2. Don't work hard circuits from the front half - work them from the end half. I.e. do end 15 moves, then if successful do end 20 moves, then end 25 moves and so on.
3. As you'll be (at a guess) around 2min30 on a successful circuit, you're actually going to be working your aerobic power the hardest (although you'd need a reasonable underlying AnCap - it can't be complete pants or you'll be trouble).
4. So you actually want to focus on AeroPow the most.
There's small issue though.... improving your AnCap = reduced AeroPow
improving your AeroPow = reduced AnCap
You can't the best of both worlds! So......... if you apply logic to your scenario you need your AeroPow to be best (due to the time of effort with intensity) and AnCap to be slightly reduced (high AnCap with inadequate AeroCap and capillarization will result in horrendous performance) by dropping most of the AnCap work during this phase.
But...... you do want to be feeling as strong as possible on the moves. So I'd go, lots of power and strength work on individual moves + aeropow training.
Hope that helps a bit :)
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Cheers, I really appreciate it!
The reason of the small moves is that those are more or less the best holds on the board, any other try to set long problems, resulted in something too difficult. I could do bigger moves but downclimbing gets very hard, due to the steep angle and to the footholds.
As said, I still have to give the route a full go. Hopefully soon. Until then, it's just guessing: even discovering if I can or can not manage the single moves in isolation, will be a fundamental part of the process.
So, no, it doesn't replicate the route.
Thanks again, keep them coming.
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So, if I get it right, you suggest to keep doing lots of power stuff for the hard moves of the route, and lots of long, easy stuff for pure endurance and capillarization, skipping power endurance (for which I do laps on problems, as per other video).
Is this right?
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Well, it depends on your timescales I suppose!
If you have 6months+ then yes, go back to doing a conditioning and aerobic base (which would be complimented by a base of AnCap work). Then build on top with the stuff in the next paragraph....
If you have a couple of months, then you're going to have to make do with the best that you can which means do the power work and do the aeropower work.
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Update and questions.
I keep training and I have improved my pathetic PE. This is week 12.
I had set two 12 moves long problems at the beginning of the training: the first one is a bit easier and featured in the video in the first page here; the second one a bit harder, in this video here.
Agony in technicolor on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/80885286)
In the normal session I do two sets of three laps on problem one, then three sets of three laps on problem two: the video shows the second set of the second problem. I now fall on the last moves of the last lap of the last set of the session. Before I used to fall also on the first problem.
I had also set a test 30 moves long circuit. I tried it yesterday, did two laps, gained 4 holds, now I fall on move 26. Before I used to fall at around 18.
What now?
My ideas:
- go on like this, no changes;
- start using a 2 kg weightbelt;
- make the problems harder;
- try and reduce the rests between the laps.
What do you think?
Cheers.
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How many times per-week are you training PE? 12 weeks seems a long time if you're prioritising power endurance - it takes around 6 weeks of focused PE torture to make significant gains. Or are you trying to keep strength as well?
Have you tried the route you're training for and noticed any difference yet?
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I train PE along with power: the route I want to do is short and the moves must be hard: I've only tried the first half of it a few years ago, and never went back. Still have to see if I can do the single moves on the second part, hence the power training.
I generally try and do one or two PE sessions per week. One can be trying the test circuit.
I have improved lots, and given that I don't know when I'll be able to go and try it, I'd better step my training up! As my training partner said, "Keep training like this, so instead of trying the route, you'll climb it!"
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Cool. Sounds interesting - would be psyched to see footage of the route! What sort of difficulty do you think it is?
A good benchmark to test your PE is foot-on campussing - 4 reps of a set time with a set rest in-between - i.e. 4 reps of 2mins.30secs with 2mins30secs rest between reps. (I know I always go on about it). It's very specific.
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Cool idea. Do you use a very tall campus board :smart: or do you downclimb or do you leave feet on same footholds and just go up and down a few rungs?
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I use a standard campus board but you only need the first 4 rungs. You keep one foot on something so you're in a comfortable popsition - I use the low brace on a chair. Go up hand over hand, match the 4th rung. Go back down matching each rung. Swap feet at the bottom rung and repeat. Keep going for the time set - 2 mins is a good start point but should increase this quite quickly. That's one rep.
Have a set rest time - start with either the same time on or 30 seconds more. You should fail in burning agony before the end of the 4th rep - if you can complete 4 reps it's not hard enough.
As soon as you can complete the 4th rep, either:
drop the rest time by 15 seconds
or
increase the time-on by 15 seconds
or
go to smaller rungs.
3 different ways to vary the intensity - choose what seems most relevant to your goal. Sounds like smaller rungs is where you want to aim for.
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I would do one of two thigns, either as Pete suggested move to foot-on campusing or set new problems. One issue you run into with working problems is the movement engrams get so dialed they problem becomes too easy for PE. That's one reason I really love the foot-on campusing. You may get a tiny bit of engram training, but the movement is so simple and short, you can get the most insane forearm burn I've ever had while climbing. Knowing how much you like consistancy and measurability when training, foot-on campusing is great.
That said if the route you're aiming for has a bunch of really big movement, then what foot-on campusing doesn't do is build PE in your arms or back. Its a straight up forearm burner. Even if you decide not to go down the path of using foot-on campusing as a means of PE training, I'd highly recommend using it as a test to gauge training effect.
Cheers! and it sounds like you're seeing substantial improvement.
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So, as suggested I tried some feet on campusing. I made a flat and an incut foothold, thinking the latter would be super good. It isn't. The rungs are 2 cm deep and being on a 53 degree board they feel hard to me.
There is no way I can work PE unless I use bigger rungs (that I don't have and don't know where to put should I buy them) or a bigger foothold. I'll try to make it tomorrow, and I mean a real, beefy foothold this time.
Anyway despite everything I managed to put in a good session yesterday, doing 22 sets on the minute. Forearms were fine at the end, but fingers, back and core felt really worked. It's a very fun session that I'll repeat regularly. Set number 22 on the video. Thanks for the suggestions!
http://youtu.be/ixdtNkz4nbg (http://youtu.be/ixdtNkz4nbg)
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You're right about no way you're gonna work PE on those rungs on that board. I'd guess even a bigger foot won't really help. :-\
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Or I just keep trying until Ican train PE on those rungs!!!
:punk:
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Or I just keep trying until Ican train PE on those rungs!!!
:punk:
Let me know when you get there. I have confidence it won't be that long :)
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You're too kind beast.
Anyway I'll make a new foothold and I'll report back.
The journey is the destination, isn't it?
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Ok, so I made the new foothold yesterday, this time a big beefy incut ledge.
Things obviously changed a lot, and I was able to complete - at the end of a power system session - three laps up and down.
I felt it a lot more on the forearms, and it's still a very good core workout.
Still far from the 2 minutes mark, but I'll try again when fresh.
Cheers!
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About how long were you able to hang on? I think of PE training as generally taking from 1-3 minutes, so 2 minutes is the optimal, but closer to 1min you are doing a blend of PE and Stength, while at 3 min you are more of a blend of PE and endurance.
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Are you not able to to get to a wall with a proper campus board? Or alternatively put one up at home with the first 4 rungs? Like Sasquatch says you won't be able to do an optimal foot-on campus workout using that set-up - too steep and rungs too small. Or you could persist with it and get to the point where you can go up and down for 2-3 minutes by which time you'll be a 9a PE monster! Actually yes just persist!
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Are you not able to to get to a wall with a proper campus board? Or alternatively put one up at home with the first 4 rungs? Like Sasquatch says you won't be able to do an optimal foot-on campus workout using that set-up - too steep and rungs too small. Or you could persist with it and get to the point where you can go up and down for 2-3 minutes by which time you'll be a 9a PE monster! Actually yes just persist!
:agree:
I'll be psyched to hear about Nibs new 10a route :)
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Another - unrequested - update.
I did a proper session today, just PE on the rungs. It went OK but the road is very very long.
I did three sets with the small foothold, going up and down for around 57 seconds.
Then one set using the small foothold and moving to the big one when I was fully pumped, lasting around 65 seconds.
Then one set using the big foothold from the beginning, at 69 seconds. At the end I was able to hang on for a bit more but couldn't move up.
So more or less a 15% difference from small foothold to big one.
For the future, I think I'll do 2 sets of each, instead of 3/1/1.
First set with small foothold in this video.
As usual, suggestions are welcome.
Cheers.
http://youtu.be/PIiewv6vUgc (http://youtu.be/PIiewv6vUgc)
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Did you "pump-out" or "power-out"?
Let us know how the recovery goes. I think if you're aiming for PE, I would just do all of the sets on the bigger foot for now.
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Did you "pump-out" or "power-out"?
Cough...
:-\
:-[
What's the difference?
I think I pumped out. Fingers locked, forearms swollen. Could not shake out due to rung size. In the first up/downs I could rapidly shake mid move.
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Pumped out is basically the super deep burn in your forearms due to the lactic acid buildup, power out happens when your muscled actually run out of the short term energy needed for back to back hard sequences. You don't really feel the "burn" when you power out
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YES! That's more like it ;D
The intensity looks almost about right but I'd match the rungs on the way back down instead of hand over hand - it'll let you stay on task for longer. 3 x reps of 1.30mins on/2.30 off is what youy could aim for - failing before the end of the last rep. Once you can do that, up the rep time to 2mins.
Horrible innit!
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The intensity looks almost about right but I'd match the rungs on the way back down instead of hand over hand
Yes, was thinking about it! Cheers.
Sasq, I think I pump out.
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:thumbsup:
Then I second Pete. Stick with it and then gains'll come.
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:thumbsup:
Then I second Pete. Stick with it and then gains'll come.
What if, instead of pumping out, I power out?
As I still am not sure I know the difference.
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My left arm pumps out often - feels like it could explode to be honest but when I power out, it's an empty shell feeling, like I just couldn't do any more. If I pump out, then I feel like I could do more but my arms so solid, that's what's stopping me.
Two very distinct feelings and I guess that's what others describe as powering out and pumped out. I might be wrong tho :)
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Yep this ^
Pumped = fingers uncurling involuntarily and a completely locked-solid forearm due to lactic acid intolerance; even though you have the strength/power to move your hand from one hold to the next, your fingers won't allow you to grip the hold.
Powered out = not having the strength/power to do the next move in a series of difficult moves; fingers aren't uncurling involuntarily and you are still capable of holding the next hold, but overall you don't have the energy to link the moves.
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Thanks guys. Definitely I pump out.
not having the strength/power to do the next move in a series of difficult moves;
Whatcha talkin bout Willis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k#)
Sorry, I could not resist.
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Thread resurrection.. Would love to know how yuo got on with these foot on exercises Nible..? Did you get the route done?
Can i pick your brain?
I'm about to start a very similar thing, foot on laddering, planned for 2x 2 month blocks, doing exercises twice a week. Exercises in a sess being (2.30sec on 2.30rest x 4) 20 min rest, repeat 3 times. Is this similar?
How did you get on with adding/maintaining at the same time, your max finger strength? Or did it drop off?
I'm trying for a route that has about 2 mins of clibing at ok ish PE for me into 2 or 3 moves that are at my near maximum crimp strength. Struggling to find a strategy for training specifically to do that.. Any ideas much appreciated.
Probes
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Hey! I've been wanting to get back on this topic for ages, but I'm so confused that I never did it. So, beware, because if you pick my brain you pick a very confused one.
Briefly said, I almost completely stopped training PE, in terms of:
foot on laddering;
laps on problems with as little rest as possible between laps.
I only did a few sessions in which I would climb those same problems I used to do three laps on, but instead of doing laps I would pause for 5 seconds on every move. They're 12 moves long, so with movements, feet positioning etc. it would add up to roughly 1'30".
I kept doing very short sessions of foot on campusing with 8 kg on, aimed at power and crimp strength, that I recently teamed with the lock off excercises in the video about core training that I posted a while ago.
I tweaked my fingerboard routines, doing back3 one arm dead hangs, and normal half crimp dead hangs with added weight.
Then I've done a few sessions of paused reps one armers, and some front lever pulls.
This work, somehow improved my PE endurance for good. I consistently get to hold 26 on my project, while before I struggled to get to 21/22, I fall, I chalk up and I finish it.
I am more efficient and more powerful. I can shake out where before I struggled to stay put.
Not only this, but I definitely increased my open handed strength, and I found myself able to one arm hang the small monos with my middle finger, left and right.
So, basically I have no idea.
I haven't tried foot on laddering recently because it was still to hot here, may give it a go now that it's cooler.
For sure trained for less time, but at a much higher intensity.
You can find a lot here:
Mono on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/109309457)
Minus four on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/108706275)
Core training on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/106872789)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X832jHC42S4 (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X832jHC42S4)
I hope this helps.
Opinions?
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"I would climb those same problems I used to do three laps on, but instead of doing laps I would pause for 5 seconds on every move. They're 12 moves long, so with movements, feet positioning etc. it would add up to roughly 1'30"
Depending on the rest you had between problems, and their difficulty this is classic short an cap territory. If they were very hard and you failed on many or most it's verging on an pow (whatever that is).
So I'm not surprised your power endurance has improved. Also, you'll see improvement on a 30 move circuit if you've got stronger, even if your PE has stayed the same.
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"I would climb those same problems I used to do three laps on, but instead of doing laps I would pause for 5 seconds on every move. They're 12 moves long, so with movements, feet positioning etc. it would add up to roughly 1'30"
Depending on the rest you had between problems, and their difficulty this is classic short an cap territory. If they were very hard and you failed on many or most it's verging on an pow (whatever that is).
So I'm not surprised your power endurance has improved. Also, you'll see improvement on a 30 move circuit if you've got stronger, even if your PE has stayed the same.
Cheers Stu.
The pause between each rep was as short as possible, just sit down, chalk up, go. Around 10 to 14 seconds.
I found the other excersise more effective.
The problems I used are easy, around 6c+, but the circuit has easy moves as well.
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Edit: what leaves me perplexed is that I did very few of those PE sessions. I only trained power, so my progress is probably due to just being stronger on the moves.
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Another thing that I recently changed is my warm up, both for power sessions and for the circuit.
Now I also want to do some hip hinges and one legged squat, concentrating on activating all the posterior chain, especially hamstrings and glutes.
It seems to have a great recruitment power.
For the circuit I do the same, then I do 1/3 of my usual foot on campusing session (power) the I get on the circuit.
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Thread resurrection.. Would love to know how yuo got on with these foot on exercises
I'm about to start a very similar thing, foot on laddering, planned for 2x 2 month blocks, doing exercises twice a week. Exercises in a sess being (2.30sec on 2.30rest x 4) 20 min rest, repeat 3 times. Is this similar?
How did you get on with adding/maintaining at the same time, your max finger strength? Or did it drop off?
I'm trying for a route that has about 2 mins of clibing at ok ish PE for me into 2 or 3 moves that are at my near maximum crimp strength. Struggling to find a strategy for training specifically to do that.. Any ideas much appreciated.
Probes
I've been foot-on campussing periodically for a few years now and it's great for developing a really deep, burning pump. Like Nibs does with his circuit, I pause 4 seconds on each hold, this makes it much harder but much more appropriate I think, I reckon just laddering without stopping has too much non-contact time involved and too much recovery built-in. Certainly made far better gains pausing.
I now use it as a supplemental exercise performed after circuits or 4x4s because while it gets you pumped it doesn't get you powered out like those do and it sounds like you're going to need that umph left at the end of you're sequence.
I'll aim for eight reps of a linked circuit but stop when I hit power failure, could be 6-10 depending on whether I've got the timing right, followed by rest then 8 reps of FoC or until forearm meltdown.
If you haven't already it might be worth downloading abarro's Training pdf.
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Nice one, yes you do look considerably more powerful on those circuits. You can never have enough power eh :)
Think i'm going to try out the long hangs between moves straight away with the foot on laddering, i think this has hit the nail on the head, in the past as I've got more tired I've tended to move quicker, it has never occurred to me that in reality your possibly getting a bit of recovery/less loading, shared contact time. Its obvious but never occurred either that I should get a metronome on the job.
I think with your circuits NIble they are quite techy, for this sort of training anyway? with the foot moves and body positioning, so I guess they've become quite well dialled, but also are open to errors and minor fuck ups whilst doing them, I'm trying to eliminate fuck up potential, i've a habit of forgetting where I am quite often, especially lapping routes for the upteenth time, so ultra simple and measured is the way I think.
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I think with your circuits NIble they are quite techy,
I thought I would never hear that in my whole life.
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Recommend Impetus, a free app but loads of functionality for creating interval workouts.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/25/46128c3cae15b4ee4a5410afd4da7b41.jpg)
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Or. Chuck a stool under the board to put your feet on, rather than a foot hold....?
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Topic resurrection.
I have completely neglected PE in the last year: mostly due to having knee surgery and lots of work committments I never figured out any chance to get back to the route project; Summer temps made trying my board circuit project impossible, so I focused on power (could you tell?).
But Autumn is here, and I still want to do both the route and the circuit.
So yesterday after some rather feeble efforts on my bouldering projects, I gave a go to foot on campusing. Same rungs and foothold as ever, managed two sets of 1'15" and 1'10" of continuous going up and down until complete forearms failure. 7' rest in between sets. I think it's not too bad. The rungs felt like jugs, and I could briefly shake out between moves. I had done hard isolation moves and short links before.
Having said that, I was wondering if going to failure for a few sets is the way to go, or if I should do more sets stopping shy of failure and getting incomplete rests, let's say 6 sets of 45" with 2' rests (numbers are a guesstimation).
Another thing I was thinking is putting a very good rung on top to have a decent rest without stepping off and maybe simulating clips.
I guess that all the above can take place in a complete PE program, but how would you PE experts figure it out?
Maybe doing more of the shorter laps after bouldering and going to failure on dedicated sessions? Or the opposite?
Would putting a better rung on top screw the intensity required for the route?
Anyway, forearms still pumped today.
The fact that after the climbing I did a new barbell complex with snatch and carries is completely unrelated.
Cheers.
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Woah there beast step back..
What does your project consist of? Number of moves, angle, shake-outs, time on route at redpoint pace, time on each hold. Then do on the foot-on campussing only what the route requires, but a little harder and a little more structured/recordable. If the goal for training PE is sending a specific route, then train specifically for it.
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That is a good idea, obviously.
Unfortunately, while the circuit is well clear in my mind, the route is quite blurry.
The circuit, as in the "Minus four" video posted on this topic a year ago, consists of 30 moves on good holds, with a couple of bad shakeouts on incut holds, but always on bad feet. Very body taxing. The moves are short so there's little time in between them to get a micro shake. The hardest moves are in the last third of the circuit. Very continuous.
The route is a roof, roughly 20 moves, with a couple of easier clips in the first half and a couple of hard ones in the second half.
Super powerful on incut edges and a few blobs, heel and toe hooks.
Managed to try it for 15 minutes five or six years ago, and for 30 minutes one year and half ago...
Don't ask why not for longer.
It should last around 2 minutes on redpoint, in my case probably 2'30" or 2'45" since I used to climb quite slowly on a rope due to sheer terror and will of dominating each move.
I'm at the start of the training PE wise, so I would like to keep it general to reap as many gains as possibile before going more surgical.
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I can't comprehend blurryness. ;D
Wouldn't the best training for the circuit consist of trying the circuit?
Can you build a replica of the route on your board, or at least a blurry version - i.e. in 4 or 5 seperate up problems? Jump off after each one then straight back on to the next one. Not perfect, because you've introduced a 2 or 3 second 'shake' in between each section, but quite specific. Alternate one of these PE 'boulder-route' sessions with a PE foot-on campuss session every other, 3 times per week for 5 weeks. Drop all the pure power training while PE'ing, and then drop the PE and resume the power for a week before going forth to slay the muthafucker.
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Re: the circuit. Yes, I've improved lots on it from just trying it, but then I got stuck at around 24/26 moves and didn't progress any further. It seemed as if I had reached my potential. Forearms frozen solid.
I'd been employing the problem lapping before, but I figured out that between each lap the pause was closer to 13/15 seconds rather than 3. I have to crawl down to the bottom of the board, chalk up and set up. I found greater improvement from doing the very same problems pausing 5 seconds on every move for roughly 1'30" of continuous climbing.
Re: the route. The above is still valid. I feel that I can recover quite fast on the ground, for doing a few more moves, but on the board it's a completely different thing.
I can't drop power training a) because I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I did and b) because the route has an 8a boulder crux and it's all roof, with no good rests.
I need high power and some endurance.
So, that said, what do you all think specifically about fuguring out the foot on campusing, in the terms of my previous post from today? Going to failure or not, etc.?
Cheers.
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I've got some advice Nibs but you're not going to like it! How long are you on the circuit for? Maybe 2 mins?
If so, it's likely you stopped improving because you reached the limit of what can be done on purely anaerobic endurance.
I think you need to increase your aerobic endurance to be more balanced. My recommendation is to stop doing all the lifting and do 10 mins on, 10 mins off on a board or fingerboard with your feet on the ground. Do that for 6-8 weeks and then start trying the circuit again
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I've got some advice Nibs but you're not going to like it! [...]
Alternatively Nibs could first try to make a significant improvement in strength... but I would venture a guess that is a way slower and much less sure way to improvement for him...
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I've got some advice Nibs but you're not going to like it! [...]
Alternatively Nibs could first try to make a significant improvement in strength... but I would venture a guess that is a way slower and much less sure way to improvement for him...
I've never met him, but from what I gather if Nib's physical capabilities (as they relate to climbing) were fruit on a tree:
aero/endurance would be low-hanging to a dwarf
anaerobic fitness would be mid-height, requiring a ladder
strength & power would be 1 inch from the top of the tree, requiring the hiring of an expensive cherry-picker and detailed method statement on how to safely reach the fruit without damaging the tree
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;D
Considering that I recently found out that I am in fact three cm shorter than I used to think, I will take the dwarf reference with my usual nonchalance and irony. I will smash a few things with a sledgehammer, a little later in the afternoon.
I had thought about improving aerobic endurance, but having only my 53 degrees board and a BM I didn't know it was feasible.
Cheers Stu.
Now, how could I get really strong?
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OK, after having lunch my mind is clear. Clearly full of questions.
Would lifting weights be detrimental to building aerobic endurace as Stu mentioned? And if so, why?
Should I do what he advised me to do, on dedicated sessions or could it be successfuly done after bouldering?
Which level of pump should I achieve and keep?
Should I keep training anaerobic endurance as before, with the foot on campusing?
And again, on this matter, back to my original question: should I do few sets to failure or many shorter sets with incomplete rests?
Cheers.
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And again, on this matter, back to my original question: should I do few sets to failure or many shorter sets with incomplete rests?
I'd do more sets to failure with incomplete rests.
I do something like this with boulder problems instead of campusing: set the timer for 1' climbing 2' rest. Do 6 sets, then take 10' rest and repeat. 2 times a week.
If you can do 1'15" when rested you should be able to complete a couple of sets and fail in the others before the minute.
As you get better take shorter rest and then increase the climbing time.
It's very unscientific but worked well for me in the brief periods I've done it. Though my starting point was pretty low.
If after 2-3 weeks you don't see improvements throw my suggestion away and I buy you a drink :)
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If after 2-3 weeks you don't see improvements throw my suggestion away and I buy you a drink :)
Do we know each other?
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If after 2-3 weeks you don't see improvements throw my suggestion away and I buy you a drink :)
Do we know each other?
We might have climbed togheter a couple of times ;D
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:tumble:
Nothing more to say from the stamina plodders?
Where are they when we boulderers need them?
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OK, after having lunch my mind is clear. Clearly full of questions.
Would lifting weights be detrimental to building aerobic endurace as Stu mentioned? And if so, why?
Should I do what he advised me to do, on dedicated sessions or could it be successfuly done after bouldering?
Which level of pump should I achieve and keep?
Should I keep training anaerobic endurance as before, with the foot on campusing?
Sorry Nibs - been busy!
Lifting weights won't be detrimental to endurance, but you need to free up nearly an hour of training time for this, and the weights are the least useful thing you do.
You can do this after bouldering. 4x 10 mins on, 10 mins off. Aim for a noticeable but gentle level of pump. I try and get "quite" pumped to start, and then ease off to maintain that level.
You can keep doing the foot on campussing, but maybe only a session a week.
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Cheers Stu! I appreciate it!
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:tumble:
Nothing more to say from the stamina plodders?
Where are they when we boulderers need them?
http://UKStaminaplodders.com/ (http://www.ukclimbing.com) :clown:
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Going to piggy back this thread as it's on similar lines.
My knee is bad just now, so hours of traversing (and maybe some campus foot on stuff)is all I can manage just now.
My current level is: TCA ~15deg board 1 x lap of 6b (30 moves on jugs) straight into(no rest) 1 lap of another 6b (40 moves on jugs). This takes me around 4 minutes and I'm struggling at the end, but not failure on first set at least.
The other circuit I'm doing is on the 5 degree wall (well, I think it's about 5 degrees) and it's down as "7a+". It's 50 moves and has a crux at 37, with a hands free rest just after. I just worked up to doing that one last session. Also 3 to 4 minutes but haven't timed it so not totally sure.
I have the whole autumn / winter to play with and no immediate routes or goals. I'd like to break the Font 7c barrier and get back to the 8s on routes and onsight loads of E5s next year.
My questions are:
Would I be best putting in a block of "easier" circuits more in the 10 minute light pump category for a few weeks to increase my aerobic capacity?
Could I combine this with some dull fingerboard strength work?
Should I leave PE (AnCap / AeroPow?) for closer to the time that I'll actually be getting out and working on problems?
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Nibile:
RE: going to failure vs not.. I think for the stength end of PE (what I call An Pow and some call short resistance) then failure with long rests is good. For the pumpy end of PE (Aero Pow or long resistance) then more reps is likely to be better, although there is a version where you go to failure, rest the same time that took, repeat until you flatline. That's a hard session.
I wouldn't be bothering with any of this if it's ages til you try your route anyway - do some aero cap like Stu said and do some an cap.
I think aero cap after other sessions is ok; the longer you leave it between them the better i.e. if you could hang in the morning and aero cap in the evening that's better than doing it all in the evening.
My questions are:
Would I be best putting in a block of "easier" circuits more in the 10 minute light pump category for a few weeks to increase my aerobic capacity?
Could I combine this with some dull fingerboard strength work?
Should I leave PE (AnCap / AeroPow?) for closer to the time that I'll actually be getting out and working on problems?
Respectively, in my opinion...
- Yes. But think more like a couple of months than a couple of weeks. I'd do some longer (20-30min) blocks too
- Yes, I would positively advise it.
- An pow and aero pow yes, an cap no - do that now.
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Respectively, in my opinion...
- Yes. But think more like a couple of months than a couple of weeks. I'd do some longer (20-30min) blocks too
- Yes, I would positively advise it.
- An pow and aero pow yes, an cap no - do that now.
:thumbsup:
I'm working on a matrix of the energy systems and how they can be trained (Basically a condensed form of your pdf for quick reference). I'll maybe post it up and you lot can offer your thoughts and corrections.
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Tried the 10' on/10' off x3 thingy this evening. Fuck off you all. I'll never fit into my shirts again now.
It's surprising which level of pump one can achieve with feet on the ground! It's been brilliant really, and the feeling of something resembling a recovery during the excercises was a shock indeed.
Cheers.
I obviously ended everything with a weights complex focused on speed and some barbell carries for good measure.
The wolf sheds etc.
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Can you give some clarification on what a certain circuit would represent in the general training scheme of things.
I'm currently aiming to work absolute power (bouldering, max hangs on fingerboard, core, general conditioning) mixed in with some AnCap as I'm doing this as much for routes performance next year as I am for bouldering.
However, the last few sessions I've got hooked by trying a circuit at TCA.
It's on the 45 circuits board, 33 moves long and apparently ~7c+ route grade. I started doing from move 10, so I've been mainly doing ~22 moves. A first I was failing at move 15, but now have done it twice to the finish (there's a bit of a crux at 15, but it's reasonably steady overall).
Today I started working from move 6 and failed again at the same point as I was before. (now move 19)
However, if I start pushing towards the far end will I getting into AnPow territory rather than staying in AnCap? Should I continue doing it from move 10 but shorten rest times? (I'm currently fully resting between attempts)
:shrug:
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I may have asked this before (and it's not a total hijack looking at the post above) but I'd also like to better understand just how to know which energy system is failing / the weak link. For instance I thought in the RRG I'd fall off with my arms feeling massively pumped etc. However, it seemed like I'd just come up short on a move (after repeating it for the 30th time), AnPow?*
*as I was a bit of a slacker I don't have many instances of this so I could have just punted things.
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It's on the 45 circuits board, 33 moves long and apparently ~7c+ route grade. I started doing from move 10, so I've been mainly doing ~22 moves. A first I was failing at move 15, but now have done it twice to the finish (there's a bit of a crux at 15, but it's reasonably steady overall).
Today I started working from move 6 and failed again at the same point as I was before. (now move 19)
However, if I start pushing towards the far end will I getting into AnPow territory rather than staying in AnCap? Should I continue doing it from move 10 but shorten rest times? (I'm currently fully resting between attempts)
Barrows, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not usually training just one energy system at once. There's a spectrum of sorts.
When you were starting at move 10 and failing at 15, then that's just bouldering! Might be worth making this move easier if you plan on doing reps of this circuit/section.
Starting at move 6 and failing at move 19 is a good length for bouldery AnCap, but given that you've only done it twice whilst fully resting, it's probably a bit hard for AnCap. Fully resting between attempts is also typical of an AnPow session, but 22 moves is quite short (?) for this I think. For bouldery AnCap, resting longer is also useful (~4 x climbing time, as a guide).
If you want to make it as AnCap centric as possible, then I'd suggest picking a 12-17 move section of it (if this includes the hard move then make it easier), and repping it. I think Barrows suggested 2x5 reps, resting 2-4 x climbing time, with a long rest after the first 5 reps, in his pdf. Aim to fail at the end of each block of 5, maybe failing a couple moves before the end on the previous rep.
I may have asked this before (and it's not a total hijack looking at the post above) but I'd also like to better understand just how to know which energy system is failing / the weak link. For instance I thought in the RRG I'd fall off with my arms feeling massively pumped etc. However, it seemed like I'd just come up short on a move (after repeating it for the 30th time), AnPow?*
Me too... Tommmyyyy! RRG is pretty burly right? I wouldn't be surprised if you just got powered out, which I normally associate with AnCap or AnPow.
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I may have asked this before (and it's not a total hijack looking at the post above) but I'd also like to better understand just how to know which energy system is failing / the weak link. For instance I thought in the RRG I'd fall off with my arms feeling massively pumped etc. However, it seemed like I'd just come up short on a move (after repeating it for the 30th time), AnPow?*
*as I was a bit of a slacker I don't have many instances of this so I could have just punted things.
What routes were you falling off in RRG and how far up? Might make it easier to guess at why you were falling... redpoints or onsights? If it's onsighting you might have just fucked up... As for establishing weak links I don't think it's always trivial unless there's a really obvious one
Fultonius - there are a myriad of session structures you could use to try to target an cap but I don't think any of them would involve resting fully between attempts... (Having said this, Tom may have one like that and come along and surprise me)
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When you were starting at move 10 and failing at 15, then that's just bouldering! Might be worth making this move easier if you plan on doing reps of this circuit/section.
Sorry, I have confused you with terrible wording! I was failing on "my" 15th move (move 25 of the overall circuit).
I can now make it though to the finish, so it's a hard but doable 22 move problem.
I've also just figured out a decent 12 move problem on the 30 degree circuit wall. (might switch the last couple of moves and make it 15 moves but without a fall-off move at the finish).
I find them hard, but repeatable with 5 mins or so rest (but I only have just got them wired).
Back to my first question (which I think you answered) - I'm best not to try the full 33 move circuit but repping what I'm currently doing. (maybe making a move or two easier if I'm struggling on it, and maybe even shortening by a few moves.
Edited as I hadn't real Alex's reply:
Fultonius - there are a myriad of session structures you could use to try to target an cap but I don't think any of them would involve resting fully between attempts... (Having said this, Tom may have one like that and come along and surprise me)
So, I need them to be easier, with shorter rests.
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Me too... Tommmyyyy! RRG is pretty burly right? I wouldn't be surprised if you just got powered out, which I normally associate with AnCap or AnPow.
I'm emailed Neely surrounding the Eva lopez discussion in Steve Maisch's podcast. Various correspondence led me to suggest if she wished to interview someone from the UK, I'd strongly recommend talking to Tommy. If we all apply a significant amount of peer pressure he may just buckle and do it!
Barrows - I'm mainly thinking BOHICA here (I was too lazy to do much falling off) but there's not a lot of info to go off:
OS - Screwed up just before the angle change, spent too much time trying to out-think the 'big move'.
RP1 - Died about 2/3rds up the steepness (damp and hot day, last day, 3rd day, insert additional excuses here etc.).
Went home.
I'm fairly sure it's not Aero based as I ended up getting stuck behind a fellow climber at the other day at the wall and happily recovered; an awesome feeling.
But seriously, identifying which energy system is failing or needs training seems to be a bit of a gap in the Barrows text and without a lattice board and a Tommy that leaves me a bit stuck.
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Oh right!
Back to my first question (which I think you answered) - I'm best not to try the full 33 move circuit but repping what I'm currently doing. (maybe making a move or two easier if I'm struggling on it, and maybe even shortening by a few moves.
Sounds good, + what Alex said. A couple things for the future: 1. once you've got the rest time down to ~3 mins I reckon you need to make it harder, rather than continue to reduce the rest, 2. don't forget to change the circuit occasionally - I wouldn't recommend keeping the same one for more than a week or two, but I know some people make an entirely new circuit every (AnCap) session.
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OK, the second 13 move problem takes 30 seconds and I just repeated it with 2 minutes rest.
The first (22 move) is maybe a bit hard to do repeats with 2 mins rest.
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Cheers guys, think I'm slowly getting a better idea of what to work.
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BOHICA is the one that doesn't have the sit-down rest right? (that being flower power)? I'd bet your failure pretty aero orientated - you've been on the thing for quite a while on your arms before you get to the angle change, and the moves are about V2... Perhaps a bit of an pow as well but it's pretty much a straight enduro route as I remember. Or you just didn't try hard enough ;)
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I did Punt a bit... The whole LH, RH, LH, RH etc. THEN RH, RH threw me a bit.
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Some insight once again please, wads and beasts.
On Sunday, I went to Ratho for my first routing session in a few months. All I have been doing is AeroCap, Ancap and Bouldering/fingerboard & core (roughly as per recommendations above).
[indoor grades caveat]
I managed to flash a ~25m Fr7a and ~25m Fr7a+ and in total we did 8 routes, 6a, 6c, 6c, 7a, 7a+, 7a+ (fail), 6b+, 6b+ so ~ 200m of climbing. Which is in line with the best I've done in there and outside (one F7b onsight, a few 7a+).
On the whole the moves felt easy and I didn't get ballooning-forearm-pump (even on the steep, juggy, sustained 7a) but I was feeling almost tight/painful powered out feeling in my forearms - like they weren't able to deal with the repeated force.
Anyway, as a general gauge of how things are going, is it safe to say that this regime is working? Considering I have been doing no routing whatsoever but am maintaining performance on sustained, long routes - makes me feel positive that some good gains could be made in the spring when I switch up to doing some AnPow / AeroPow and getting out on some projects??
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Maybe the slower climbing of onsighting was a bit diffferent from the training laps which would more likely be at RP pace (since on well-known ground)?
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Pretty much your single question to yourself should be - "could I have previously" -
Flashed a ~25m Fr7a and ~25m Fr7a+ and in total we did 8 routes, 6a, 6c, 6c, 7a, 7a+, 7a+ (fail), 6b+, 6b+ so ~ 200m of climbing
If it's an improvement from you would have done before at that volume and intensity then the simple answer is yes! :-)
Sounds like you've done a great job with your training.
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Pretty much your single question to yourself should be - "could I have previously" -
Yes, I probably could - but not if the run-up consisted of 2 months without touching a route. Normally if I boulder exclusively I feel terrible on routes for a the first few sessions. This time I felt like the moves were all easy and my endurance wasn't as bad as I thought it might be.
If I had sent the last 2 months mainly climbing routes I think my routing would be as good if not better than it is, but I wouldn't have made the strength gains. Hard to gauge though. That's the difficulty I find with not regularly "testing" my level but focussing on making gains in other areas - it's hard to know if it's working!
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Neither wad nor beast, but I'd say that's why keeping training records for each sesh is so important for giving the confidence that the training is (or isn't) working. Whether it's strength benchmarks on the fb, power benchmarks on bouldering or campusing, or benchmarks for any of the fitness's. Seeing progress or plateauing against weekly, monthly and yearly benchmarks is the only way of objectively knowing what's going on when you're away from routes for a long time.
Also, to keep myself from worrying about losing fitness while focusing on strength/power I keep in mind the overly simplistic concept that strength comes slowly and fitness comes back quickly - at least for the typically most useful kinds of route fitness for me (short-average length sport or trad). So I don't worry that I won't be 'route fit' until shortly before needing to be. As long as strength/power are good I know I can tune up the fitness when required.
Obv it's more nuanced than that, as the capacities/powers model suggests. And fitness for 50 metre endurance 8s isn't something I know (or care) about - I suspect that takes longer to train.
Anyway it's all moot if you're injured. :'(
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Resurrecting this thread because there’s a lot of interesting stuff here.
After a relatively successful few months of focusing on strength, I’ve got a lot of syke for routes now and have been trawling through loads of the good knowledge and suggestions on here (and other threads) about endurance training.
I’ve been experimenting with various AeroCap periods, circuits on various angles, foot on campusing, etc in order to figure out a plan.
I have a great circuit board available with a decent spread of grades. Getting to wall with routes / autobelays is a bit of a trek and only feasible every 2-3 weeks. So, what I’m wondering about is the (possible) value of incorporating redpointing the harder circuits, especially because the technique aspect (and smaller holds / not really steep) is something I think I definitely need to work on, and also mirrors the kind of sport routes I’ve been trying recently.
Assuming it is a good idea, what is the best approach? It seems to me that (on fairly sustained circuits at least) it’s the boundary of AeroPow and AnCap. And, as AnCap is a longer term process, it would be better to pick harder things that I can only climb sections of, rather than doing nearly complete easier circuits leaving me totally pumped.
Any suggestions?
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I thought that broken circuits / redpointing falls within AnPow (and thus would be of use/focus during a peak phase)?
I may have this wrong but an off the cuff summary would be:
Regen/ARC is very easy with relatively large blocks of time on the wall (auto-belays would be useful)
Aerocap, foot on campussing, 1 min on 1 off, blocks of 10 or so, a couple of sets perhaps?
Ancap, 12-15 moves (1:2-4; work: rest). I've done this on the campus boards, long boulder problems and more recently, half a hard 30mv circuit.
Aero-pow circuits consist of ~30mv circuits, 8-12 reps and a similar work:rest ratio.
An-pow broken circuits/redpointing (trying to gradually increase the length of links being made). 5-7 moves, less rest than work.
Interestingly An-Pow is omitted from the Lattice app.
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Yossarian, i’d recommend cashing out on a Ouija board to commune with the ghost of Alan fucking Turing to help decode that bollocks.
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An cap, An pow and Aero pow should all teach you to climb well when fatigued (each in subtly different ways) if that's what you mean about technique?
With respect to things that don't "fit" a category, I often do that kind of stuff just before a trip to replicate route climbing a bit more.
Paul - I think Tom doesn't really like An Pow except for boulder competition climbers; that said, some of their An Cap sessions come quite close to what I think of as An Pow (though maybe only the ones in the premium plans rather than the lite - I'm not sure whats where). I like An Pow because I feel like it makes me good at that short resistance style... and makes me stronger.
Dan - I presume that's some kind of irony, given your posting style.
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Alex - re technique - yes, partly that (making progress with varying amounts / type of fatigue) but also because the circuit board angle and general hold type seems to have more in common with the routes I'm aiming for outside. As opposed to sifting through blobs and volumes on the main wall, etc.
Apart from a few volume sessions last year, I've basically never done any structured endurance training before. The modest amount of progress I made during my previous sport climbing season (2002-2003, just before I fell out of a window) was powered (according to a dog-eared old logbook) by some gritstone bouldering and soloing at Harrisons. As such, I am supersyked about the prospect of climbing lots of things until my phone beeps, wearing sweatbands, etc.
Someone should do a foot-on-campusing version of Zwift. Where you can watch yourself as Ethan Hunt campusing up and down that thing in the film.
Dan - I fucking love the jargon...
(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/841/1*NGShhQ9emNjG_ypsFb_pOg.jpeg)
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It sounds useful at some point in your plan, but if you’ve just finished doing strength you could probably make use of a base phase (aerocap/ancap) first, which would mean full laps of the easier circuits with less rest.
Redpointing the harder circuits will be more suited to a peak phase (aeropow), which should come just before you intend to go forth and crush.
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It will be interesting to see what happens to this in the next 20 years. I’ve yet to bump into a climber who’s actually climbed harder through energy systems programs. Another mass delusion on a grander scale than Almscliff
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It will be interesting to see what happens to this in the next 20 years. I’ve yet to bump into a climber who’s actually climbed harder through energy systems programs. Another mass delusion on a grander scale than Almscliff
Haven't the two posters above you climbed 9th grade routes through energy systems programs?
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It sounds useful at some point in your plan, but if you’ve just finished doing strength you could probably make use of a base phase (aerocap/ancap) first, which would mean full laps of the easier circuits with less rest.
That’s what I was doing today, give or take. Good - so I will put this idea on hold for the time being, and revisit in a month or two.
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Hey, just a personal observation Joel. I’m sure neither Stu nor Alex would take it as a criticism. Plenty of 9th grade climbers out there not on a program.
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That doesn't really say anything about 9th grade climbers who are on a program though
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IAnother mass delusion on a grander scale than Almscliff
... Almscliff is a mass delusion? I think I've missed something here.
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‘On a program’
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It will be interesting to see what happens to this in the next 20 years. I’ve yet to bump into a climber who’s actually climbed harder through energy systems programs. Another mass delusion on a grander scale than Almscliff
I'm not sure I understand the critique. No one ever got close to their potential at any physical activity without variation of load, so that cannot be your critique. Is it your opinion that the metabolisms is a particularly bad paradigm to plan variation around compared to other paradigms? Or is it that preplanned variation is a delusion?
Also, does Almscliffe have a grand scale?
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It looms large in Dan’s head, at least.
Dan - I know you’ve posted about how you didn’t like your training program and I think you let that colour your perception of how it might work for others.
It does take a certain amount of wilful blindness to respond to two posters who have jumped about two grades, and at least one of whom has climbed with you, by saying “I’ve yet to bump into a climber who’s actually climbed harder through energy systems programs”.
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Setting this methodological dissonance to one side for the time being...
The immediate thing I’ve noticed is a lack of ZAP on the following session of strength / power problems after a session of circuit lapping / foot-on-campus - with a rest day in between. I guess this is probably to be expected at this stage, and also probably indicates that making sure I’m doing a decent amount of lower intensity AeroCap is something to work on too...
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Hey up Stu, of course you are right. I consider myself duly spanked :spank:
I shall return to the relative obscurity of lurker and keep my nonsense to my self. Unfortunately born of a constant urge to buck the trend.
Hopefully see you again at some point! Hope you’re well 😊
Ps I quite enjoyed the training, I just got worse at climbing. By approximately 2 grades.
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Ps; I’ll take the double punter Duma, if just for the BMC communist joke
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Dan
I would be interested to hear what you think didn’t work / what you didn’t get on with your program.
Personally, what I liked about doing structured endurance training for cycling was that the results were positive / easy to quantify / and (over the duration involved - a couple of years) pretty much continuous (though obvs at a reduced rate over time).
However, I can see how, particularly with climbers who have progressed through the grades on talent / movement / mental game, etc might find that a load of regimented activities that feel quite unlike what you actually want to do or enjoy doing present a challenge in terms of how prepared you are to dedicate yourself to them.
My own concern is that I end up getting really fit, go on a trip with overambitious expectations and then climb like a total punter. But, unlike when I was younger, i’m now more interested in laying some groundwork rather than turning up in Spain and getting lucky on some routes that happen to suit me...
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You pretty much said it Yossarian, apart from talent. I can’t own up to that bit. And I did stick 100% to ‘the program’ which took a bit of deprogramming but once it was out the system things got on track.
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That doesn’t quite make sense though. Yossarian gave reasons there why it would be difficult to stick to a training program, but you say you stick to it 100%. So either it was so miserable that you weren’t motivated to actually try your projects, or not suitably specific to your goals, or you overtrained and were always exhausted at the crag.
I’ve always assumed that if you are doing ‘something’ consistently (even if it can’t really be considered ‘training’) that is better than doing nothing. In my mind it would be quite hard to do ‘something’ and get worse.
I have had two trips that stand out for me in recent years. One bouldering where I didn’t do anything focused, but bouldered a lot and had a great trip with a huge improvement in my personal best. One was a sport trip where I tried to actually ‘train’ really struggled, got demotivated and ended up doing nothing. I wished after that I had just done the same as I had before the previous trip. At least being strong and unfit would have been better than weak and unfit for a sport trip.
The problem there was not that my training program sucked (although it probably did to be perfectly honest) but that I just didn’t do it.
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And I was fat as well.
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I really don’t want to dig myself in any deeper speculating why it didn’t work.
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Did you just lose your rock climbing skills while you were putting so much time into training? Happens with some people I think, spending all their time indoors to get stronger & fitter but find they've lost their touch on the rock.
EDIT: sorry, that's just hading you a spade inviting you to keep digging
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Personally, what I liked about doing structured endurance training for cycling was that the results were positive / easy to quantify / and (over the duration involved - a couple of years) pretty much continuous (though obvs at a reduced rate over time).
However, I can see how, particularly with climbers who have progressed through the grades on talent / movement / mental game, etc might find that a load of regimented activities that feel quite unlike what you actually want to do
Hi Yossarian, that comparison is between a very repetitive activity versus one with very varied movement, technical complexity and a massive psychological component.
So what's easy to measure and apply to the former gets impacted by lots of other factors in the latter. I can see why following a programme of fitness for climbing, focusing on only one of the big components, doesn't always yield results.
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I totally agree. I meant it more in the sense that certain personality types relish the prospect of quantifying / following a structured system. Or perhaps, might be initially daunted by it but, when presented with some positive feedback (returning to a route and shaking out on a section that previously felt desperate, for example), find themselves converted.
Whereas there are plenty of climbers who have an inbuilt (or affected) aversion to that sort of approach and, for the reasons you've rather elegantly described, are still able to move forwards.
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I really don’t want to dig myself in any deeper speculating why it didn’t work.
You're like a top-roping version of JB. (Not a bad thing to be).
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Trying to hard, that’s what went wrong. Different to over training. I just wanted it to work and tried to hard at the expense of fun.
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You see it all over the place. But most intensely at popular sport crags like Malham.
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Trying to hard, that’s what went wrong. Different to over training. I just wanted it to work and tried to hard at the expense of fun.
I think this is pretty key. I find that if I lose the fun, then I lose the edge needed to both relax and try hard at the same time. Which for me is key to climbing hard. There's an odd balance to be had.
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https://youtu.be/qzPGiw0Efnc