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the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: jwi on April 06, 2023, 08:42:52 am
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Noobie topic of the day:
The other day I saw some pretty chocking belaying in the gym. The guy kept the grigri closed at all times by clamping it with the right hand and kept the left hand on live end of the rope all the time. When the leader fell he let go of everything. (I admit that at this point I was more interested in the fate of his leader than mine). The leader obviously fell miles despite being very close to the bolt, but was kept off the ground as they fell pretty high up.
I would obviously never tell someone who is not belaying me to change from an obsolete belay technique to best current practice, but in this case I struggled a bit against my inner know-all. As such I asked my partner if I should say something. She got upset and claimed that if someone climbs with an unsafe belayer it is their personal choice and I should just shut up.
I moved out of the fall zone and tried to climb on ropes far away from them for the rest of the session.
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Mention it to the staff? Surely you have to demonstrate safe belay technique to use the wall? Certainly do in the UK walls I use.
Would be more awkward outdoors if course.
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What Duma said.
Bit trickier outside. Hard to broach the subject without making the person feeling a bit put on, but worth trying imo. I'd feel pretty guilty if I saw someone get injured due to shit belay technique if there had been an opportunity to correct the mistake.
As such I asked my partner if I should say something. She got upset and claimed that if someone climbs with an unsafe belayer it is their personal choice and I should just shut up.
This seems to assume that everyone knows how to belay properly and that the climber is making a conscious decision that they're happy with their belayers technique. I think there's plenty of occasions where one or both of these assumptions isn't true.
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Mention it to the staff? Surely you have to demonstrate safe belay technique to use the wall?
No, that is a UK/US thing.
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I'd definitely mention it to the belayer. Their feelings matter less than the life of the climber and his/her nearest and dearest.
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As I'm typing this, I feel like it probably comes across as being a snitch/dickhead, but if I'm still at the wall and they deck and break their legs, I'd definitely feel like I could have done something to help.
This has happened before: my partner and I saw someone lead belaying with an ATC and whenever she was moving rope through and had to pause for whatever reason, she would leave her dead hand up in the air. So belay plate was not at all locked. For example, there'd be some slack to take in but midway through taking, her climber would go to clip or something, so she'd just freeze with her hand above the belay plate. She was also not paying much attention, considering her partner was still only on the first few bolts, and looking shaky. This was happening at least once every couple metres of rope.
Maybe that's not a great example to imagine, I dunno, but to watch, it was absolutely terrifying.
We looked around for a member of staff to tell, which would my ideal option to avoid tension. After all, staff often talk to people about unsafe belaying, so an anonymous tip to them seems pretty fair to me. However, we couldn't see anyone around and it seemed pretty urgent (again, terrifying to watch), so my partner went and mentioned it to the belayer - we chose her instead of me so it's less likely to be dismissed as mansplaining lol.
She didn't seem best pleased about being given any advice, but I can see how it'd be a bit embarrassing. The whole thing was very awkward, and I'd really rather not ever tell anyone about their belaying like I'm some sort of expert, but like I said at the start, if those people have an accident after I've watched them act objectively dangerously, and then I'm just around the corner hearing them screaming in agony, that's going to haunt me.
So my vote would be: best option is tell staff, second best is tell them. Or be happy enough to live with it if they do get unlucky.
I'd definitely mention it to the belayer. Their feelings matter less than the life of the climber and his/her nearest and dearest.
This is very well put - the climber is the one in danger, and they probably don't even know it.
Edit: just to add that my partner is a doctor so she was particularly not keen to be legally obliged to deal with a mangled climber. Just walking round the corner wouldn't cut it for her
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My reaction depends on experience and level of the party. If they are beginners and seem to lack the knowledge, resp. if it seems it's not their deliberate choice to use sloppy belaying techniques then I feel in a position to give them advice. If it seems to me that it's not by ignorance but by choice that they belay poorly, I shut up (and try to keep clear of the danger zone).
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Climbing is a dangerous sport, anyone who is not trying to keep up with best practice should not climb imho. When climbing with someone new you should look down to check how they belay from time to time, at least on the warm-up route.
My reaction depends on experience and level of the party. If they are beginners and seem to lack the knowledge, resp. if it seems it's not their deliberate choice to use sloppy belaying techniques then I feel in a position to give them advice. If it seems to me that it's not by ignorance but by choice that they belay poorly, I shut up (and try to keep clear of the danger zone).
The leader climbed around 7a, which doesn't tell you anything these days. They might have bouldered before. I taught a guy how to tie in and he onsighted a 7a and a 7c for his two first routes (outdoors)
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I learned to belay with a grigri outdoors just watching/learning from other people so I used the old skool technique of just clamping the gri gri open with LH and pulling slack out with the other with no control on dead rope. When I started to go to an indoor wall years later this was noticed by one of the staff who came over and had a chat with me and climbing partner who used the same technique (think I might have even shown him to do it that way! :chair:). Instructor showed us how to use it properly and more safely. Moral was it’s all about the way you broach the subject. If like him it’s explained without criticism or being patronising then don’t see why it shouldn’t be well received. I immediately switched technique and used it ever since. Although maybe him being an instructor helped with it not feeling critical and might have been different if it was just another wall user.
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My vote was tongue in cheek and assumed outdoors. It's actually my job indoors ( senior staff at a wall), and my best advice is collar a floorwalker or someone from reception. We deal with this all day every day, and have seen all types of scenarios.
It's not worth you getting involved unless it's imminent death ( one of our staff just had time to stomp/ grab the rope before the leader lobbed and the belayers hands went in the air in shock...)
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I can't answer the poll because there isn't an option for "tactfully offer some advice", which of course is the only option for any reasonable non Harrisonian-Libertarian-nightmare human to take. They might be responsible for their own safe practice but they've messed up - are you saying the penalty for that is death?
I once saw a vanlifer put a rope up on Consenting Adults then go to top rope his partner up it. He clipped his ATC into the old hand-drilled caving bolt at the bottom which people sometimes tie their dogs to. I opened with something like "I hope you don't mind me being a dickhead, but" and then told him that these bolts have pulled out in the past. No dramas.
Climbing is a dangerous sport, anyone who is not trying to keep up with best practice should not climb imho.
This is ridiculous. Barely anybody does this. Go to any UK limestone sport crag and count the number of people wearing helmets.
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I've mentioned it to floor walker before, for dubious belaying and also for someone with harness upside down (well, waist belt). That's what they are there for.
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I presume this is in France JWI?
Not sure it makes any difference, but as you say there may be a bit more of a self-reliant culture there?
I would potentially say something but it would be on a case by case basis depending on the feel of the situation and my mood. Probably not very helpful...
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I can't answer the poll because there isn't an option for "tactfully offer some advice", which of course is the only option for any reasonable non Harrisonian-Libertarian-nightmare human to take.
Was this personal dig necessary? It isn't even an accurate dig.
To the belaying, it would depend on context as per most moral questions. Having seen my share of crumpled climbers in various situations I wouldn't like to see any more. I expect in those circumstance I'd discreetly make a staff aware and let them deal with it, as that's part of the deal when you work in a wall.
Move the circumstances to those of you seeing someone you know to be a strong but inexperienced trad climber with not very well-developed gear placing ability, about to set off up a notoriously hard for the grade and poorly-protected E3 at Pembroke for their first at the grade, and ask yourself the same question.
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Climbing is a dangerous sport, anyone who is not trying to keep up with best practice should not climb imho.
This is ridiculous. Barely anybody does this. Go to any UK limestone sport crag and count the number of people wearing helmets.
I’m amazed at this myself. I met a pair last year - one wore a helmet only for climbing, and the other only for belaying.
I was asking about it and they said they had very close calls when climbing and belaying, respectively. Hence deciding to start wearing one.
When i put it to them that their partner had had the opposite experience, they agreed it was odd but as it hadn’t happened to themselves the didn’t see the need to wear the helmet all the time :wall:
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Logic defying. Likelihood is that if you have had a near miss incident when doing something it's unlikely to recur, it's the things that don't happen you should worry about.
I have friends who don't wear helmets when cycling because they read a study where it said motorists are more likely to be careful passing a cyclist who isn't wearing a helmet. I pointed out that probably doesn't apply to motorists who don't see you, or if you fall off your bike due to a misjudgment you made yourself, but they seemed OK with their take on the situation. They make their daughter wear one though.
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Logic defying. Likelihood is that if you have had a near miss incident when doing something it's unlikely to recur, it's the things that don't happen you should worry about.
I think you might need to reconsider your understanding of probability.
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I have friends who don't wear helmets when cycling because they read a study where it said motorists are more likely to be careful passing a cyclist who isn't wearing a helmet. I pointed out that probably doesn't apply to motorists who don't see you, or if you fall off your bike due to a misjudgment you made yourself, but they seemed OK with their take on the situation. They make their daughter wear one though.
Heard this in our local cafe this week. The mind boggles.
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Logic defying. Likelihood is that if you have had a near miss incident when doing something it's unlikely to recur, it's the things that don't happen you should worry about.
I think you might need to reconsider your understanding of probability.
Most likely. I was expecting a comment like this.
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How many people wear helmets cycling in the Netherlands? Cycling safety correlates to safe infrastructure, not helmets.
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This is a quandary I experience very frequently, not just with regard to belaying, but with all sorts of bad practice from indoor walls to the mountains. Possibly working as an instructor makes me hyper-aware, or maybe it's just that I'm spending a lot of time where the punters dwell.
Obviously the correct answer is 'say something in a friendly and non-condescending way', but it can be so difficult to strike the tone sometimes.
So often I'm guilty of saying nothing, and just watching anxiously, unless it's really bad - like when I saw a guy tie off his rope at the top of Stanage and sit on the edge of the crag to belay his second without re-attaching to the rope, or meeting a couple on the CMD Arete this winter with micro-spikes and no axe and a long 35 degree névé slope to the summit ahead.
I see crap belaying on the first two bolts at the wall so often it's almost normalised.
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Noobie topic of the day:
The other day I saw some pretty chocking belaying in the gym. The guy kept the grigri closed at all times by clamping it with the right hand and kept the left hand on live end of the rope all the time. When the leader fell he let go of everything. (I admit that at this point I was more interested in the fate of his leader than mine). The leader obviously fell miles despite being very close to the bolt, but was kept off the ground as they fell pretty high up.
I would obviously never tell someone who is not belaying me to change from an obsolete belay technique to best current practice, but in this case I struggled a bit against my inner know-all. As such I asked my partner if I should say something. She got upset and claimed that if someone climbs with an unsafe belayer it is their personal choice and I should just shut up.
I moved out of the fall zone and tried to climb on ropes far away from them for the rest of the session.
Better to hurt the belayers feelings than to let someone get seriously hurt imo.
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How many people wear helmets cycling in the Netherlands? Cycling safety correlates to safe infrastructure, not helmets.
Very noble of cyclists in this country, where we have crap cycling infrastructure, to not wear helmets in the hope that their smashed crania will collectively prompt government into action.
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So often I'm guilty of saying nothing, and just watching anxiously, unless it's really bad - like when I saw a guy tie off his rope at the top of Stanage and sit on the edge of the crag to belay his second without re-attaching to the rope,
I was once at the top of Stennis Ford in Pembs and went over to chat to a woman sat at the edge belaying her partner toproping Ghost Train. Was sat there a few mins before I suddenly realised she wasn’t attached to anything so I scrambled around shitting myself finding something to clip her into. She was totally unfazed and just said “yeh safety first I guess”. A few mins later he fell off and shouted “take” as the rope went tight.
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So often I'm guilty of saying nothing, and just watching anxiously, unless it's really bad - like when I saw a guy tie off his rope at the top of Stanage and sit on the edge of the crag to belay his second without re-attaching to the rope,
I was once at the top of Stennis Ford in Pembs and went over to chat to a woman sat at the edge belaying her partner toproping Ghost Train. Was sat there a few mins before I suddenly realised she wasn’t attached to anything so I scrambled around shitting myself finding something to clip her into. She was totally unfazed and just said “yeh safety first I guess”. A few mins later he fell off and shouted “take” as the rope went tight.
Jesus!
While we're on the near-horror-stories, I was once climbing in the Burren and a random guy who'd teamed up with us at the crag built the belay for us while I was leading. This all seemed fine until I was belaying my second, who was almost certain not to get up the route clean, and I looked back and realised all the anchor points were 'tied off' with Italian hitches instead of cloves.
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Had a Euro-wad come to the UK to tick some Hard GritTM and he was busy setting up for an ab when I noticed he'd sunk a load of gear into the top of the buttress which he'd joined with old rope tied in a (large) loop). Nothing was even vaguely equalised as he confidently strode towards the edge.
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It’s not the same, but reminds me of a story from my university club some years before I joined (which was about 2008). Member relatively new to trad climbing had a fatal fall after gear ripped. Apparently gear had been falling out all day and belayer obviously regretted not saying anything.
If you see something truly dangerous I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t say something, even if you aren’t directly involved as in the case. Worst case scenario someone calls you a dick and you get on with your day. Worst case if you don’t say something, you live with the regret of not having done so when something horrendous does happen.
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I think it's good to say something but not be a sick about it, like much in life...
Slightly related, was at the Roaches and a guy was really struggling on an E3 and after a run out back clipped some bits of gear. After me and my mates talked one of us had a quiet word with the belayer and it was him that shouted up to the climber.
I guess there's always a tactful way of doing things, if people get offended it's their problem. We're all part of the climbing community so should try and help each other stay safe and not die, whenever possible...
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I was once at the top of Stennis Ford in Pembs and went over to chat to a woman sat at the edge belaying her partner toproping Ghost Train. Was sat there a few mins before I suddenly realised she wasn’t attached to anything so I scrambled around shitting myself finding something to clip her into. She was totally unfazed and just said “yeh safety first I guess”. A few mins later he fell off and shouted “take” as the rope went tight.
I'm sure there must be something I'm not getting here. Are you saying that the person was sitting on the grass at the top, with the rope and belay device clipped to them, and there was no anchor whatsoever? Was there an anchor that she was direct belaying to but she hadn't clipped herself to it?
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How many people wear helmets cycling in the Netherlands? Cycling safety correlates to safe infrastructure, not helmets.
Very noble of cyclists in this country, where we have crap cycling infrastructure, to not wear helmets in the hope that their smashed crania will collectively prompt government into action.
If my commute entailed a dead flat vehicle free route with well maintained surface I would probably forego a helmet. However that is certainly not the case here.
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But let's not pretend that your XPS MIPS helmet is going to do anything beyond the SQRT(FA) when it comes in contact with an Audi SQ8 grille! I wear one, religiously.
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Me too. On most of the cycling I do (quite back roads and mountain biking), my worst danger is me.
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I'm sure there must be something I'm not getting here. Are you saying that the person was sitting on the grass at the top, with the rope and belay device clipped to them, and there was no anchor whatsoever? Was there an anchor that she was direct belaying to but she hadn't clipped herself to it?
Her partner had presumably abbed down before I got there because there was an anchor set up, plus loads of rope trailing all over the place at the top, including the rope going down to him. She was sat on the grass with his rope through her belay device clipped to her. But she wasn't secured in any way to the anchor at the top. So I had to scrabble around to put a bite into the anchor rope and find something (think it was a loose QD lying around) to attach her to that anchor with. It took me a few mins to notice cos of the rope all over the place.
I thought she'd just forgotten to clip herself in but her comment about "safety first" and not freaking out suggests she didn't think it was necessary!
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I often wander across the top of yer Stanages and yer Froggatts taking pictures of people climbing. I stopped looking too closely at people’s belay setups after I realised that very few fall into the category of what I’d build (obviously mine are the platonic ideal of safety and practicality :ang: ) most are either total overkill or, while not being something that’s going to lead to belayer and second decking, are some weird semi-sketchy shit. Obviously if I see something downright dangerous I mention it, in the same way I’d say “mate, you need to hold onto the rope” in jwi’s example.
Anyway, now that’s out of the way I’ll join in sharing a horror story. :popcorn:
I was climbing at Stanage Popular one day and a bunch of three blokes showed up next to us- two middle-aged beergut sort of guys and their younger mate who I think was one of their colleagues who they’d recently started bringing to the wall and crag. He was gearing up to lead a route that they said was too difficult for them these days and there was much banter that we got drawn into about how he “hated gear” and just ran up anything they pointed him at without stopping to place much, which was kind of irrelevant as he was bad at placing it.
So it came to pass that he dispatched the route, legs shaking at the crux as he’d eschewed taking the #4 cam I’d suggested would be handy on the grounds that it was too big and heavy.
The older guys were still laughing after he’d disappeared from sight and they were tying in. The first was halfway up on second and not finding it easy when urgent shouting came from above. Someone walking along the top had spotted that the guy our new friends for some reason trusted to build a belay despite constantly describing as unsafe and a maniac was belaying off a single small rock that was barely wedged in the earth. The bloke seconding went pale and clung on for dear life while the passer-by and my mate remedied the situation. That was the end of the banter.
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I often wander across the top of yer Stanages and yer Froggatts taking pictures of people climbing. I stopped looking too closely at people’s belay setups after I realised that very few fall into the category of what I’d build (obviously mine are the platonic ideal of safety and practicality :ang: ) most are either total overkill or, while not being something that’s going to lead to belayer and second decking, are some weird semi-sketchy shit. Obviously if I see something downright dangerous I mention it, in the same way I’d say “mate, you need to hold onto the rope” in jwi’s example.
Anyway, now that’s out of the way I’ll join in sharing a horror story. :popcorn:
I was climbing at Stanage Popular one day and a bunch of three blokes showed up next to us- two middle-aged beergut sort of guys and their younger mate who I think was one of their colleagues who they’d recently started bringing to the wall and crag. He was gearing up to lead a route that they said was too difficult for them these days and there was much banter that we got drawn into about how he “hated gear” and just ran up anything they pointed him at without stopping to place much, which was kind of irrelevant as he was bad at placing it.
So it came to pass that he dispatched the route, legs shaking at the crux as he’d eschewed taking the #4 cam I’d suggested would be handy on the grounds that it was too big and heavy.
The older guys were still laughing after he’d disappeared from sight and they were tying in. The first was halfway up on second and not finding it easy when urgent shouting came from above. Someone walking along the top had spotted that the guy our new friends for some reason trusted to build a belay despite constantly describing as unsafe and a maniac was belaying off a single small rock that was barely wedged in the earth. The bloke seconding went pale and clung on for dear life while the passer-by and my mate remedied the situation. That was the end of the banter.
Quite incredible given the insight they clearly had.
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I presume this is in France JWI?
Not sure it makes any difference, but as you say there may be a bit more of a self-reliant culture there?
I would potentially say something but it would be on a case by case basis depending on the feel of the situation and my mood. Probably not very helpful...
Yeah, this was in France. No one else was visibly bothered, and at least one guy who climbed near them is a rock-climbing instructor (which is regulated by the government, and not easy to get).
A lot of unsafe belay methods kind-of-work as long as the leader doesn't fall without warning. But I have been dropped to the ground once (not very far), and almost to the ground twice (very far both times) by people clamping the thumb on the grigri.
The only belay test I have taken was in the US, where I had to do it to climb on toprope.
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If I saw someone doing something that might lead to an injury, I’d look to say something as non-confrontational as possible. To see an accident, knowing you might have been able to prevent it, would not be good.
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try and help each other stay safe and not die, whenever possible...
The new BMC participation statement?
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When I was rehabbing my broken arm years ago I'd frequently still go out to The Peak, just for a walk and take a few photos etc.
One time while sat at the Joe's Direct bit of Froggatt, sat eating my lunch a couple of Uni-age lads rocked up with couple of female mates.
Lads seemed to be climbers, albeit struggling to read the guidebook etc, girls very much not, but (I assume) out with the lads to give it a go.
One of lads managed to wobble up the VDiff / Sev or whatever there, which got my attention to begin with. Then proceeded to set up a belay / top rope.
One of the lasses then got harnessed up and ready with one of the lads belaying. Other lad went to tie her in.
By the forth attempt to tie a figure of 8 and some jokey "should it take this long?" type comments from the girls, I decided to step in.
Were deemed pretty relieved. I stuck around to keep an eye on the lads' belaying which TBF was OK.