UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: mctrials23 on February 21, 2015, 11:44:44 pm
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http://www.climbstrong.com/articles/20150220 (http://www.climbstrong.com/articles/20150220)
At the moment I am doing some one arm hangs for a max duration of 6-8 seconds to try and improve my finger strength. This seem sensible to avoid injury to the back from too much weight whilst also doing max hangs.
This article seems to suggest that the best and safest way is much lower intensity hangs and not many of them on a limited number of hang positions.
Is this a load of shit? It seems to good to be true. Short duration, medium intensity and limited sets.
The amount of effort I put into my one arm hangs is intense and their point about injury does play on my mind sometimes. What do people make of this?
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If it seems too good to be true... I will let you fill in the blank!
:-\
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You are doing one arm hangs for 6-8 seconds to improve your finger strength? Do you climb at least 8B? I possibly know 5 people who could do this and know the same amount who climb 8C
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I'm sceptical. Surely if moderate loads make me strong, then when I go route climbing I should get strong? I don't. I get strong when I go bouldering.
(Before Dense points out how weak I am, I mean 'strong' in a relative sense. Relative to most 12 year olds.)
I did once try to look into the research on isometric contraction times. My conclusion from a day of looking at abstracts was that if you hold a position for somewhere from 4-60s and try hard it will do you good, and that there wasn't much consensus beyond that.
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Interesting, and it might tie in with the 'hypothesis that shallow edge lifting force in high-level rock climbers is more strongly related to fingertip soft tissue anatomy than to absolute strength or strength to body mass ratio':
http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=z6jYnCcAAAAJ&citation_for_view=z6jYnCcAAAAJ:roLk4NBRz8UC (http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=z6jYnCcAAAAJ&citation_for_view=z6jYnCcAAAAJ:roLk4NBRz8UC)
This study investigates the hypothesis that shallow edge lifting force in high-level rock climbers is more strongly related to fingertip soft tissue anatomy than to absolute strength or strength to body mass ratio. Fifteen experienced climbers performed repeated maximal single hand lifting exercises on rectangular sandstone edges of depth 2.8, 4.3, 5.8, 7.3, and 12.5 mm while standing on a force measurement platform. Fingertip soft tissue dimensions were assessed by ultrasound imaging. Shallow edge (2.8 and 4.3 mm) lifting force, in newtons or body mass normalized, was uncorrelated with deep edge (12.5 mm) lifting force (r < .1). There was a positive
correlation (r = .65, p < .05) between lifting force in newtons at 2.8 mm edge depth and tip of bone to tip of finger pulp measurement (r < .37 at other edge depths). The results confirm the common perception that maximum lifting force on a deep edge (“strength”) does not predict maximum force production on very shallow edges. It is suggested that increased fingertip pulp dimension or plasticity may enable increased deformation of the fingertip, increasing the skin to rock contact area on very shallow edges, and thus increase the limit of force production. The study also confirmed previous assumptions of left/right force symmetry in climbers.
Correlation of Force With Anthropometric Measurements and Climbing Performance
Climbers with large bone-to-tip pulp measurement tended to generate a higher lifting force in newtons on the 2.8 mm deep edge (r = .65, p < .05). Lifting force in newtons produced on the 2.8 mm deep edge also correlated with subject height (r = .71, p < .05) and reach (r = .81, p <.05). There was no correlation with subject height or reach at edge depths larger than 2.8 mm. Maximum climbing grade correlated with body mass–normalized lifting force on the 7.3 mm (r = .71, p < .05) and 5.8 mm deep edges (r = .57, p < .05). The correlation was weaker at all other edge depths (r(12.5 mm) = .45; r(4.3 mm) = .42; r(2.8 mm) = .27).
Although the Climbstrong article isn't coming at it from this ^ angle, instead it's talking about the isometric strength adaptation.
Several studies, including Garfinkel and Cafarelli’s landmark 1992 study, tend to show us two other important factors. First, longer-duration isometric actions tend to build greater strength than short actions. This counter-intuitive information might suggest that holding positions for ten or even 20 seconds could cause greater gains than loading heavy for five. Second, the total volume of load (duration x contraction) is more important than the degree of load. I’ll rephrase, because I had a hard time believing it: the time you spend under load in a given position is more important than how heavy the load is.
A long-term emphasis on volume versus a short-term emphasis on intensity. Wouldn't the former equal an increase in finger pulp mass?
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errr....2.8mm edges.... :-\
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Shallow edge (2.8 and 4.3 mm) lifting force, in newtons or body mass normalized, was uncorrelated with deep edge (12.5 mm) lifting force (r < .1).
(https://lifeinthevertical.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/verybig-0023.jpg)
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You are doing one arm hangs for 6-8 seconds to improve your finger strength? Do you climb at least 8B? I possibly know 5 people who could do this and know the same amount who climb 8C
I'm a little confused about what you are saying here... I'm using a pulley to take off 20kg to do these hangs and this is on the beastmaker centre slot at the bottom in half crimp or the shallow three finger pocket at the top open handed. Basically its not very impressive.
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They're numbered.😉
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/22/16976681b51aeae8bf0d1f7afc8d9a75.jpg)
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mctrials - that sounds like the Webb-Parsons workout?
I did this for a couple of cycles last year. Started off being able to one-arm the bottom centre beastmaker slot (#9 above) with 8Kg taken off via pulley.
By the 6th week I could one-arm this hold unassisted for 8 seconds, on each arm, in 3 different arm positions (nearly straight, half-locked, full lock). Dense - I don't boulder 8B (yet...).
edit: just checked my training diary - was actually 3Kg assistance, and did one sesh unassisted at 8secs on LH / 5 secs on RH. This then dropped to 5 secs on LH / 3-4 secs on RH.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/mZXjS3wZoatJnFOj1NRpc-cBrKWfwOY0SeUEuwZKj_4=w700-h500-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BsabwN3CiqyUbbVULv_SAhk-aLKiCf0FWCh9tBm27c8=w700-h500-no)
After the second cycle of this I got a slight pulley strain... and never got the chance to apply the strength-gain to rock-based recreational activities.
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Is the climbstrong blogpost one of the daftest things I've read on fingertraining or is my brain not working today?
I don't understand anything in the original post. E.g.: 1) Why on earth should someone with access to climbing on rock/plastic do a high volume of low-mid intensity isometric training on a variety of holds? Surely, that is just called climbing? 2) And if they do actual climbing instead of farting around on a fingerboard wouldn't they learn to climb at the same time?
Most people train their fingers at low-mid (and high) intensity when climbing. If they need additional stimulus they do finger boarding since it is a (relatively) safe way of achieving the high loads necessary for supercompensation (esp. if they have climbed for a long time)
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You are doing one arm hangs for 6-8 seconds to improve your finger strength? Do you climb at least 8B? I possibly know 5 people who could do this and know the same amount who climb 8C
I'm a little confused about what you are saying here... I'm using a pulley to take off 20kg to do these hangs and this is on the beastmaker centre slot at the bottom in half crimp or the shallow three finger pocket at the top open handed. Basically its not very impressive.
One armed hangs assisted or otherwise are not the best way to go if you are focussing on finger strength gains as you are introducing other factors in the hang that may be limiting the intensity and your focus namely shoulder strength and stabilising from turning during the hang. But if the aim is to one arm hang an edge that's a diffrent matter..
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Is the climbstrong blogpost one of the daftest things I've read on fingertraining or is my brain not working today?
I don't understand anything in the original post. E.g.: 1) Why on earth should someone with access to climbing on rock/plastic do a high volume of low-mid intensity isometric training on a variety of holds? Surely, that is just called climbing? 2) And if they do actual climbing instead of farting around on a fingerboard wouldn't they learn to climb at the same time?
Most people train their fingers at low-mid (and high) intensity when climbing. If they need additional stimulus they do finger boarding since it is a (relatively) safe way of achieving the high loads necessary for supercompensation (esp. if they have climbed for a long time)
The Climbstrong post is saying that supercompensation doesn't happen in isometric contractions (i.e. the fingers in rock climbing) in the way that you perhaps think it does:
'Several studies, including Garfinkel and Cafarelli’s landmark 1992 study, tend to show us two other important factors. First, longer-duration isometric actions tend to build greater strength than short actions. This counter-intuitive information might suggest that holding positions for ten or even 20 seconds could cause greater gains than loading heavy for five. Second, the total volume of load (duration x contraction) is more important than the degree of load. I’ll rephrase, because I had a hard time believing it: the time you spend under load in a given position is more important than how heavy the load is.'
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It's important to distinguish between training to make fingers stronger and training them to their max potential.
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It's important to distinguish between training to make fingers stronger and training them to their max potential.
I don't understand the difference. Can you explain
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Working at 70/80% or going for 90/100%.
Ten hangs with 40 kg or 2 with 55.
You progress etiher way, but only with max you exploit your potential. Also, working to max is more taxing on CNS and full body.
It's lovey.
Yesterday I did a total of two reps on a system excercise and I was done for the day, fingers wise. And body also was shaken. So I did weights.
:dance1:
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Would it be correct to say Nibile that you're content with discovering your maximum potential in training but not in climbing?
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petejh, hanging 9s on a hold that is not so har to hang 3 times as climbstrong recommends... don't you do that all the time when climbing?
Can't comment on the Caffarelli paper until I have read it
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I agree that it simulates climbing - perhaps closer to trad climbing than sport, but still climbing.
The stand-out points, for me, from the Climbstrong post - if the underlying ideas are true - are these:
1. It may not be necessary to use high loads to achieve significant finger strength gains.
2. Total time spent with fingers under load may be more important than many people currently think.
3. A finger board can only ever be an adjunct to time spent climbing.
4. However - a fingerboard can be the best way for many people to achieve long periods of time spent with fingers under load.
5. A fingerboard accurately isolates the fingers and allows for replicable loads over many year's workouts in different locations.
6. Climbing does not as accurately isolate fingers as a fingerboard nor is it nearly as replicable, however there is still time spent with fingers under load and the movement benefits are great/unique.
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I am not so sure that studies on isometric training of other body parts directly relates to forearms. The following has some different conclusions using some of the same recourses:
http://www.stevemaischtraining.com/isometric-strength-training.html (http://www.stevemaischtraining.com/isometric-strength-training.html)
:shrug:
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Interestingly that post you linked to actually comes to a very similar conclusion as the Climbstrong post -
Summary:
As I said earlier, my inclination is to go with strength trainers doing actual strength training with actual athletes. This would be Siff and Verkoshansky (1996), Bompa and Carrerra (2005), Low (2011) and Lopez (2012). Of this group we have one arguing for a repeater style workout on the finger board with the other three arguing for a single repetition. Of the single rep group we have a gymnastics coach and a climbing trainer. Climbing is definitely more similar to gymnastics and finger boarding than it is to squatting (no dis-respect to squatting). My conclusion in regard to the optimal fingerboard workout for improving maximum strength would then have the following characteristics:
Single hangs of 9 - 12 seconds with a 2 - 3 minute rest in between sets.
Number of sets per grip 3 - 9 sets.
Total amount of time hanging should be between 40 and 120 seconds.
Training weight is determined by total weight that can be hung from the grip being trained for 13 seconds.
Cheers,
Steve
And:
In my mind, one of the best plans that fits these criteria is the Hangboard Ladder Program, or 3-6-9 as it’s popularly known. It goes like this:
Select 3-4 hold types or positions. You’ll stick with these throughout the 6 week phase, so pick well. I suggest full crimp, half crimp, and open hand. Again you could conceivably come up with several dozen hold types and combinations...but don’t. You have very little adaptive capacity, so don’t waste it. These three hold positions will get you where you need to be. All hangs will be done at bodyweight. Pick a hold that you can comfortably hold for 12-15 seconds.
Week 1: 3 straight ladders 3-6-9 sec. resting as needed. As soon as you start timing rest, you have left the path of strength. You should never feel pumped, tired, or sweaty. If fatigue comes into the session, make your rests longer.
this means:
position 1: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
position 2: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
position 3: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
position 1: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
position 2: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
position 3: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
position 1: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
position 2: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
position 3: 3 sec, rest, 6 sec, rest, 9 sec, rest.
Week 2: 4 ladders 3-6-9 sec.
Week 3: 5 ladders 3-6-9 sec.
Week 4: 3 ladders 3-6-9-12 sec.
Week 5: 4 ladders 3-6-9-12 sec.
Week 6: 5 ladders 3-6-9-12 sec.
The difference between the two being Climbstrong advocates adding in a 3,6 and 9 second hang in addition to the 12 seconds; and the 'weight added so that you can comfortably hang a hold for approx 13 seconds' - in the case of the Climbstrong post, that means bodyweight.
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The difference is that one is hanging at a resistance that causes failure at 13s, and the other at a resistance that feels comfortable for 13s. That's a significant difference.
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Would it be correct to say Nibile that you're content with discovering your maximum potential in training but not in climbing?
Yes, at least in the last years. Having little time for rock, it's hard to climb as hard as I train, there are too many variables (conditions, new projects, etc). In the last years I've climbed the hardest on my board, that's always there, always dry and with endless potential for futuristic projects.
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The difference is that one is hanging at a resistance that causes failure at 13s, and the other at a resistance that feels comfortable for 13s. That's a significant difference.
:agree:
Exactly my thought. To me there is a difference between sort of trying and trying REALLY hard. Maybe I read it wrong, but the climbstrong post seems to advocate "sort of trying."
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Oh yeah, didn't scroll up and missed that point about added weight - yeah a significant difference then.
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Ah mctrails I didn't realise you were using a pulley, I assumed you meant you were doing one armed hangs ;) also for some reason I just assume people are half-crimping which seems to be in vogue, my bad. That's where my 8B statement came from.
Anyone who thinks doing something with moderate stress is as good as doing something with maximal stress may as well buy men's health as opposed to flex. And hope no one has taken photos of them bumming their dog in the garden
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Ah mctrails I didn't realise you were using a pulley, I assumed you meant you were doing one armed hangs ;) also for some reason I just assume people are half-crimping which seems to be in vogue, my bad. That's where my 8B statement came from.
Ahh, never assume I am anything but childishly weak (not one of those strong kids either).
Honestly though, I reckon I should be able to one arm half crimp the bottom centre slot on the beastmaker in the next few months but I can assure you I will still be operating in the mid to late 7s if I'm lucky!
I have decided in light of all the comments to keep with my one arm hangs over an appealingly easy medium intensity jolly.
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Assuming that both Steve Maisch and Steve Bechtel are reasonable smart people, I'd guess the issues are with terminology and target audience. Are the articles targeted at Intermediate or advanced climbers? For Maisch I'd guess advanced, for Bechtel-Intermediate. What does "moderate" mean? What does "comfortably" mean? These types of generic terms are the bane of training communication. They're like pain tolerance. Everybody has a slightly different perspective on it, so it really has no meaning. It's like talking to a sport climber and a boulderer about trying "hard". Their starting reference is so different, it can seem like a different language. Most boulderers have little understanding of how pumped you can actually get and keep climbing. Most sport climbers (who don't also boulder) don't know how hard they can actually pull on a single move.
If comfortably means maximum with good form, then they're very similar programs except one would lead you to a smaller hold at bodyweight, whilst the other would have you add weight to whatever hold to achieve maximal.
I do think it's interesting that Steve Maisch's program is remarkably similar to Eva Lopez protocol.
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Ah mctrails I didn't realise you were using a pulley, I assumed you meant you were doing one armed hangs ;) also for some reason I just assume people are half-crimping which seems to be in vogue, my bad. That's where my 8B statement came from.
What about me Dense? I'm doing exactly what you assumed - 5-8 secs one armed hangs, unassisted, from the bottom middle slot on a BM, in three different arm positions (and I was half-crimping as in the CMP vid). Yet I don't boulder 8B (although I hardly ever boulder..). I know, I'm just awesome.
mctrials - go easy on your fingers. Strong digits are fuck-all consolation if you can't climb.
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mctrials - go easy on your fingers. Strong digits are fuck-all consolation if you can't climb.
Are you talking about my plan to be able to one arm hang the middle rung on the beastmaker in 6 months time? I am just recovering from an A2 at the moment which is pretty much better now but I really hated having to ease up on my climbing while it healed.
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Obviously Pete the other caveat is straight on, as per the cwp hangs. If you say you can do this for the time stated then no offence but I don't believe you
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mctrials - go easy on your fingers. Strong digits are fuck-all consolation if you can't climb.
Are you talking about my plan to be able to one arm hang the middle rung on the beastmaker in 6 months time? I am just recovering from an A2 at the moment which is pretty much better now but I really hated having to ease up on my climbing while it healed.
yep. 13 months ago I did exactly what you're aspiring to do and strained a pulley very shortly afterward which put me out for 6 weeks. It made me think it wasn't worth the gain. Long term medium intensity for me since then.
Dense, can you explain what you mean by 'straight on'? As far as I'm aware I've done the unassisted one-armers in exactly the same way as per the CWP vid. I might even till be able to do them, might warm up later and try (...pop!)
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yep. 13 months ago I did exactly what you're aspiring to do and strained a pulley very shortly afterward which put me out for 6 weeks. It made me think it wasn't worth the gain. Long term medium intensity for me since then.
Hows the long term medium intensity working out?
I'm just keen to get stronger faster because I'm a bit bored of being at a roughly similar level for the past 6 months. I know I have got stronger but all I see around me are people much stronger than myself climbing stuff I want to climb! There is the other side of it which is that come a point, you have to be able to hang small holds with a lot of weight on them and without training that, its unlikely you will be able to climb those problems.
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Oh ffs! I've wrote a lengthy reply twice only to have the net scuppered when sending. I am after all in a bar in Tenerife waiting for the beat freaks, a Beatles rip off band, to enter stage left.
Just was saying Webb stays front on, as in stand under the board as if you're gonna do a 2 handed hang but only put one hand up pull and stay there, without any twisting if poss. Saying this I can't remember what he actually does on vid, but that's how he always used to hang. Shit description I know but 3rd time lucky.
I suspect you twist but doing any one armed hang half crimped is excellent even if twisted! If you're straight on cut your ropes and throw your axes, you're as strong as unkle in his pomp but can climb! A scary thought
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Oh ffs! I've wrote a lengthy reply twice only to have the net scuppered when sending.
I don't believe you ;)
I suspect you twist but doing any one armed hang half crimped is excellent even if twisted! If you're straight on cut your ropes and throw your axes, you're as strong as unkle in his pomp but can climb! A scary thought
Yeah i think I probably twisted in when I did the workpouts. But I 100% promise you that when I did the CWP workout 13 months ago, at the start I was using 3 Kg assistance and by the 5th week I could one-arm hang unassisted for 8 secs on lefthand and 5 secs on righthand. This was in three arm positions - straight, half-bent and full-lock.
I could have just made this training diary up I guess ...
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2IDRfSArIdA/VOnRrDJvGXI/AAAAAAAABLA/6C6Lfgvoo3M/w600-h450-no/IMG_0929.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HbccxhnTwTo/VOnQz8N5fkI/AAAAAAAABKs/OoWLOqTQork/w600-h450-no/IMG_0927.JPG)
I'm going to have to do a few sessions to get the motor neurons firing again, then make a vid to prove it.
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Would love to see a video of someone off ukb doing a one armer proper half crimped, as in not just dragging the hold, proper chiselly chiselling fingers
Edit: off not of
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Would love to see a video of someone off ukb doing a one armer proper half crimped, as in not just dragging the hold, proper chiselly chiselling fingers
Edit: off not of
I do all my one arm hangs on a 2cm rung half-crimped/chiselling - hopefully I'll get back to one armer strength soon.
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Please everyone be aware that if you do produce video evidence of this then Dense'll change the rules or introduce some undeclared specification so that whatever you've done won't count. 😉
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Would love to see a video of someone off ukb doing a one armer proper half crimped, as in not just dragging the hold, proper chiselly chiselling fingers
Edit: off not of
I do all my one arm hangs on a 2cm rung half-crimped/chiselling - hopefully I'll get back to one armer strength soon.
Awesome.
Do it. I'd be impressed even if dense isn't, as long as you don't do a French start and chin bob at the "top" of the one armer, that's enough to make me leave the room and look for the eye bleach :D
Actually is be impressed enough if you just lock off half crimped, more impressed than I would be by a clown getting filmed on problems that are too easy for him so he doesn't need his shoes
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Is this half crimped enough?
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3866/14936213222_7c982d466e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oKRZPC)image (https://flic.kr/p/oKRZPC) by Nibile (https://www.flickr.com/people/70381658@N00/), on Flickr
Every aspiring climber should know that dragging is the devil and should be left for monos or shallow pockets.
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Arghh! No Dave what dense said originally was half crimped straight on you should be climbing 8B. The fact that no one understood what straight on meant has nothing to do with me, I thought it was straightforward, or even standundertheboardasif...forward.
That is half crimped nibs but nothing else to do with what I was talking about, not that it's supposed to be. Hold that hold face on for 5secs without twisting, doubt you've got enough room for shoulders tho.
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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Sometimes i :wub: this forum :2thumbsup:
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Arghh! No Dave what dense said originally was half crimped straight on you should be climbing 8B. The fact that no one understood what straight on meant has nothing to do with me, I thought it was straightforward, or even standundertheboardasif...forward.
You are doing one arm hangs for 6-8 seconds to improve your finger strength? Do you climb at least 8B? I possibly know 5 people who could do this and know the same amount who climb 8C
Short memory?
I have enough problems at home having to use telepathy and understand things that were never said, I don't want to have to do it on here too......😱
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Nibile,
Do you find that training fingers at max for a short time / low reps is more or less injury-inducing than training at 80% for a long time / high reps ?
Just curious to know.
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:popcorn:
I love the vagueness.
What is max? Short time? Low Reps? Long time? High reps?
Because I can workout at 80% till failure and therefore be at my "max".
This is one thing that I LOVE about Eva Lopez' protocol. She has very specific guidelines.
You are doing one arm hangs for 6-8 seconds to improve your finger strength? Do you climb at least 8B? I possibly know 5 people who could do this and know the same amount who climb 8C
I know one who can do this and he is strong enough to climb 8C and only has the skill/technique to climb 8A+. I think his goal is to get strong enough to climb 9A so he can then climb 8B+ :)
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See Sasquatch understands, sorry for all the perceived vagueness Dave.
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And you're probably referring to different holds anyway, on the BM they vary a lot.
I would have thought Dense meant the small edge on the BM2000, (hold 3 on the picture)
(http://rockrun.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/beastmaker2.jpg)
Which do you mean Pete?
There is a big difference.
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I thought both Dense and Pete were referring to hold 9.
My friend can do #3. I HATE THE SKINNY STRONG LANKY BASTARD :furious:
I think there're quite a few stupidly strong bast$%^s out there who have that level of strength but not the ability to effectively apply that strength.
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Nibile,
Do you find that training fingers at max for a short time / low reps is more or less injury-inducing than training at 80% for a long time / high reps ?
Just curious to know.
Hmmmm... I fried my elbows twice from training repeaters Beastmakers' style, the 7/3 hangs.
With max hangs I've had a few issues - one of which just yesterday, pulling front2 and mid2 full crimps on the small rung of the BM.
With lower intensity training you can ease yourself into it more easily, while a proper serious specific and progressive warm up is de rigeur for max hangs.
And as I experienced, higher volume taxes more the elbows, higher intensity the fingers.
The worst injuries I've had were caused by drunken party tricks or rock climbing.
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I'd like to find a BM with enough room to try some tests on the small rung.
It's been ages now.
I've been mostly training half crimp on the incut central rung (9) in the last years, progressively adding weight or switching to back3, and I'd like to see how this crosses with the small rung.
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And you're probably referring to different holds anyway, on the BM they vary a lot.
I would have thought Dense meant the small edge on the BM2000, (hold 3 on the picture)
(http://rockrun.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/beastmaker2.jpg)
Which do you mean Pete?
There is a big difference.
I meant hold #9 in that photo. Think Dense did too?
I'm well keen to do it again - just to #proveDensewrong prove to Dense that it's possible to be able to do it while not really ever bothering applying it to bouldering (2- 3 times per year, the one 7C I've ever bothered trying for more than a session I sent). I'm about as weak-fingered at the moment as ever due to not having climbed on my fingers since last October in Turkey, I've been Scottish mixed climbing or drytooling exclusively since the start of November.
I'm downing the winter tools very shortly and starting a training cycle for rock. 3-4 weeks aero/mileage, then 4 weeks strength etc. etc.
So rather than risking fucking myself up now with a party trick, I'll do it during my strength phase starting April.
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The CWP fingerboard routine sounds like a good idea for me as finger and lockoff strength is what I am after at the moment but I don't know if I am strong enough for it yet. What do you guys think?
Continue with my current plan which is one arm hangs with weight removed via pulley (lots of open and half crimp grips on various BM2000 holds) or start the CWP program.
I'm currently at -15kg on my one arm hangs and can half crimp hold 9 on the BM for about 8 seconds. This is however interspersed with 3 finger open handed hangs and 2 finger pocket hangs etc so if I focus purely on the single hold 4 finger half crimp I can probably do longer.
Would I be better off continuing as I am until I can hang the slot without having to remove weight and then start the CWP program or should I just go for it now and take that bit more weight off with the free hand?
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I can't answer that, I'm rubbish at giving specific advice.
Generic advice - what's your goal or goals? Define them - not just a grade. Then define how your abilities line up against your goals. Then do the least amount of good quality specific training you need to do in order to achieve your goals, and no more.
Unless your goal is to be 'a trainer' or to specialise in indoor boulderering, with outside climbing goals coming second.
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Currently I'm buying a house, live to the south east of london and don't have much time for going outdoors so my main focus is indoor training. There is nothing specific goal wise other that to get stronger / better at climbing indoors at the moment. Ultimately getting stronger will make me climb harder outdoors as well when I eventually get round to venturing out.
I want to build stronger fingers and more lockoff strength because that seems to be what is holding me back the most. At the wall I am trying to improve my sloper strength because its pretty shit currently but being relatively heavy I struggle with fingery moves on small holds or where I have to lock off before going for the next hold.
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I began doing the CWP program when I couldn't hang the 9 slot. Could briefly take my weight but not hang at all - if that makes sense. Within a few months I could hang the 9 slot unassisted for 4-5 seconds. It also greatly improved my arm strength and I went from being able to lock off a jug to 1 arming a jug.
How well this all translated to my overall climbing ability is hard to say, I've had a good year but that's down to a variety of things. Something very noticeable was that when I went back to the moonboard after doing the CWP for a few months I had massively improved, but also wasn't injuring my fingers anymore.
I'd say that it has been very beneficial for my arm strength and half crimp strength and at the very least it has allowed me train better on the moonboard... training for training!
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I can't recall CWP program exactly, but it seemed quite PE oriented, and it could easily be done taking some weight off.
You can do both, CWP program for PE and volume; my own personal program for max strength... (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21935.msg400791.html#msg400791 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21935.msg400791.html#msg400791))
;)
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Would I be better off continuing as I am until I can hang the slot without having to remove weight and then start the CWP program or should I just go for it now and take that bit more weight off with the free hand?
Haven't read all the replied or your whole post but I remember CWP saying you should be able to hang hold 9 for 2-3 seconds without assistance before its worth it.
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Nibble only you could describe the Webb-Psrsons hangboard routine as 'PE oriented'!!! It's 3 minutes rest in-between 8 seconds of close to max strength effort. The idea being you only use the minimum amount of assistance required to hang a hold one-armed to failure at 8 seconds. It's quite beefy.
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And you're probably referring to different holds anyway, on the BM they vary a lot.
I would have thought Dense meant the small edge on the BM2000, (hold 3 on the picture)
(http://rockrun.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/beastmaker2.jpg)
Which do you mean Pete?
There is a big difference.
Ahh sorry for the vagueness. The question was meant to refer to more general training.
I have come back to training in latter life which is good and it still works and gives improvements that translate to problems. BUT I am finding injuries in general and (fingers in particular) take a lot longer to heal now than I remember them taking twenty five years ago. The couple I have had recently have happened at the end of sets of 7/3 repeaters when I am getting knackered and losing concentration. [size=78%](I dream of using hold 9 ...one day while I can still get it in focus)[/size]
So If max effort, at what ever level you are operating at, is still a way of getting stronger as Nibiles experience would suggest then does it come with a better chance of avoiding injury... but the answer would appear to be not clear cut and probably no when it comes to fingers.
I am not looking for short cuts but I am looking for ways to minimise time spent rehabilitating injuries.
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
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Given that finger pulley injuries occur when you are fatigued, I'd say there is possibly less chance of injury when constructing your training around a bias towards higher intensity/maximal effort.. with some caveats.
When I'm training fingers I try not to fall into the trap of trying to extend the length of hang directly.
So for instance, scenario, one hand, half crimp with pulley assist. Rather than seeing how long I can hold for, I try to "crush" - focussing on near maximal (positive) output, rather than trying not to fall off. In other words the effort is above what is required to stay in position on the hold; the pulley helps you maintain the position a little longer.
It's a subtle difference, but think about it. If you're doing lat pull-downs on a machine, you don't register failure as the point at which you let go of the bar, it's that you simply don't have it in you, to do another rep at a given output.
I've found that a lot of my finger injuries have occurred doing something stupid, like picking up washing up bowls with the rim..
Does anyone get my drift on the above?
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And you're probably referring to different holds anyway, on the BM they vary a lot.
I would have thought Dense meant the small edge on the BM2000, (hold 3 on the picture)
(http://rockrun.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/beastmaker2.jpg)
Which do you mean Pete?
There is a big difference.
Ahh sorry for the vagueness. The question was meant to refer to more general training.
I have come back to training in latter life which is good and it still works and gives improvements that translate to problems. BUT I am finding injuries in general and (fingers in particular) take a lot longer to heal now than I remember them taking twenty five years ago. The couple I have had recently have happened at the end of sets of 7/3 repeaters when I am getting knackered and losing concentration. [size=78%](I dream of using hold 9 ...one day while I can still get it in focus)[/size]
So If max effort, at what ever level you are operating at, is still a way of getting stronger as Nibiles experience would suggest then does it come with a better chance of avoiding injury... but the answer would appear to be not clear cut and probably no when it comes to fingers.
I am not looking for short cuts but I am looking for ways to minimise time spent rehabilitating injuries.
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
Museli - if you look up the Long Duration Isometrics article on eric horsts website or find Steve Dunnings 'Deadhang durtion[sic]' thread on here you will find info on what I think is a good protocol for hangs which feels similar to repeaters, but you avoid the danger which comes with sloppy repositioning of grip in the later reps of a repeater set. You can really dig deep, but its not so iffy as repeaters. Its also psychologically easier IMHO, in the same way that circuits is psychologically easier than 4x4s (once you're on you're on).
Get some holds, arrange hold/weight so as to fail at somewhere between 20-30sec. Have a big rest (3-5min) and do it again. Adjust hold and weight to enable progressive overload. You could perhaps do 3 of these each for 3 grips (after warm up) giving a fairly decent workout.
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@ Dave, yes I do.
@ Pete, :-[
;D
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Nibs, cool, i thought you would :)
Are we debating:
Maximum duration/given load vs maximum load/given duration?
Something like that, former being more like climbing, latter more like effective resistance work.
The other conclusion is simply that doing the washing up makes your fingers soft ;D
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After some really YYFY fingerboarding sessions in the last weeks, that showed some really good progresses, I thought I could share some info about how I tweaked things in the last months.
As I said on here or in another topic, I found out that I wasn't bouldering enough on my board, doing too much isolation for fingers, so I decided to have just one fingers-specific session per week, usually on Monday (I usually rest on Tuesday due to working away).
I have two sessions that I alternate:
- BM session, in which I target half crimp and monos;
- System session, in which I target full crimp.
Both these sessions have a crossover with general power, because the BM session is made of one armed hangs, with and without added weight, that result in a big arms, shoulders and back workout. The System session is made of static holds with one foot on, that results in a full body workout due to the size of the foothold.
So, the BM session goes like this, after warmup.
Incut rung (9): back3, half crimp, one armed. 1 max hang + 1 sub max hang x 3 x arm. (Do the max hang, incomplete rest, do the sub max hang - shorter and taking a little weight off if needed).
Monos: one armed. Index, middle, ring x 2 per arm. Now, the way I do the monos is a bit particular. I have small fingers, so except for the middle fingers, the monos are a bit big and I tend to slip off easily because I have little catch. Also for index and middle I need to take some weight off. After getting the mono, I do a little jump and at the same time start pulling down, when I'm in the air, especially in that moment in which I stall and start going down, I pull down as hard as I can as to lock off. It's an extremely short and intense effort. I find it more useful than using a pulley or the other arm, also because in this way my fingers do not slip off, given the time is so short.
Incut rung: half crimp, one armed, with added weight. 2 x arm.
The System session goes like this, after warmup.
I do a specific warmup on the BM:
- front2 full crimp on smaller rungs (3), two armed;
- middle2 half crimp on small pockets (6), two armed.
On the System rungs:
- full crimp, one armed, 2/3 x arm;
- full crimp, oner armed, with added weight, one foot on. 2 x arm with opposite foot/hand; 2 x arm with same foot/hand.
And that's all. So far I've seen really good progress, and I'm quite pleased. I hope this is of some interest and useful for someone.
It could sound silly, but it's the result of months and months of tweaking and adapting.
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i always heard full crimps were to avoided while training. interesting to see them coming back.
As someone who has tried to avoid full crimping at all times, i have noticed that when i am forced to crimp full on i tend to get tweaks, especially around the a4 which i think isn't stressed much in a half crimp.
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They're surely to be avoided when, for instance, campusing. But overlooking the full crimp in training means being at risk of injury whenever on rock you need to crimp, leaving aside the fact that the full crimp is a very common prehension, having it as a weakness is not very cool.
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Now, the way I do the monos is a bit particular. I have small fingers, so except for the middle fingers, the monos are a bit big and I tend to slip off easily because I have little catch. Also for index and middle I need to take some weight off. After getting the mono, I do a little jump and at the same time start pulling down, when I'm in the air, especially in that moment in which I stall and start going down, I pull down as hard as I can as to lock off.
:o
i thought that french starting a fingerboard exercise was like heel hooking on a board ;D
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- front2 full crimp on smaller rungs (3), two armed;
:sick:
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i thought that french starting a fingerboard exercise was like heel hooking on a board ;D
It's not, with the first technique you train to get strong, with the second you train to get weak. ;D
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without reading this thread I'd like to point out that there is absolutely nothing interesting about fingerboarding
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;D