UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: blamo on February 09, 2015, 12:42:48 am
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I definitely appreciate all of the training threads on ukbouldering, but I have recently been finding I gain way more from identifying why I suck at a certain style of problem as compared to my goto approach "If you can't do such and such a problem go home and hangboard until you can crush the problem with no thought on technique."
Anyway, a few of these new found technique issues are as follows:
Reeling in and out: Sometime there is huge value in staying up high on the problem before you release tension.
Making a foothold: By simply identifying a position where you are going to push hard with a foot can do good even if there isn't a hold.
Using your feet to actively remove weight. My previous approach was to half-ass heel hook, but I am finding by actively pulling and pushing with my feet I can do more than just take the weight of my fat thighs off of my fingers.
Got any more ideas? I am all ears. Or if you have a fast track to mono pinky pull-ups so I can drop all this weak guy beta I am also game...
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I understand what you mean by “making a foothold” (i.e. smearing), but I have no idea what you mean with “reeling in and out”.
For understanding climbing movements Douglas Hunter's “The self coached climber” is probably the best book in english atm. (The second half of the book, about the physical aspects of climbing is not good at all)
There is a wonderful little book by Dai Koyamada (http://www.amazon.co.jp/小山田大-DVDでボルダリング/dp/4635912639/)* where he explains the most used movement patterns in climbing, where they can be used in general, and for each position/move list a few boulderproblems where they are commonly used (apparently there is a DVD attached as well, but I only looked through it in the gym so I haven't seen the DVD). I don't know if I've seen such a systematic approach anywhere else.
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* Link may not work if your browser can't use kanji.
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Another vote here for the self coached climbers movement part. Its pretty obvious stuff but the way its presented makes it much easier to digest and really makes you want to move in an efficient way. I'm still struggling to feel the benefits as much on overhanging terrain as the vertical but I think its helped already.
I paid about £2.50 delivered for it from eBay as well so it can be found cheaply.
The biggest thing I find that dictates the quality of my movement and session in general is recruiting the core. I sit at a desk all day so warming up the core and getting it firing is a priority if I want to climb hard.
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Thanks for the suggestions.
Reeling in and out (not sure if there is another used name for it) is when you pull in to latch a hold (reel in) and then relax when you are on a hold (reel out). Similar to when you cut your feet on bad hand holds and you reel your body in to minimize the swing and relax out to hit the next foot hold.
Definitely agree with the self coached climber being a good resource, but I found most of the drills in the book to be of limited value much past V6 or so.
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That is an issue I have noticed as well, a lot of the advice is fine until you hit a certain grade where you don't have the footholds/ handholds you want to execute the technique demonstrated. The principles are still relevant though and it's a case of having to figure out how to apply them to the infinite number of subtle differences in routes you come across.
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The best technical insight I ever got was watching Andy Pollitt repeatedly peel off the crux of Oyster at Pen Trwyn.
He looked totally smooth and comfortable- then would just fall off.
After the 3rd or 4th time it dawned on me: he was totally in bulk, but so totally focussed on executing the move well it wasn't apparent to the observer. 100% concentration on technique. Brilliant.
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Blamo have you read Dave Macleods '9 out of 10..'?
It's not all about technique but the stuff in it on dynamic movement is a good complement to Self-Coached Climber technique content. Seems to work for me above V6 8)
Visualising the path of your CoG during a move is one of my favourite ways to problem-solve hard moves.
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Blamo have you read Dave Macleods '9 out of 10..'?
Yes, that is probably my favorite book on improving climbing. :2thumbsup:
I guess the difficult thing is it feels like there is a huge deficit in information on climbing technique compared to physical training in climbing. I often find myself finishing off projects by finding a new technique or approach to certain moves. As the grades get harder I find these tricks/techniques to be more subtle while I am sure they are old hat to some crushers. :-\
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The difficulty comes in combining the language with the body awareness. Something simple like a backstep makes alot of sense to people. Something more complex like understanding the weight distribution across all four limbs on a compression problem becomes far more difficult to explain.
If I had to simplify it down for advanced options, I'd say:
1 - Learn to move dynamically: deadpointing, one foot cutting, and two foot cutting. All of these are very different. Learn to deadpoint via hipthrust, shoulder thrust, body whip, etc.
2 - Learn to see yourself in three dimensions. This helps to understand your hip position, center of gravity, and movement on the wall, as well of hold usage.
3 - Learn to assess where your body should start and end moves. If you fall was it because you couldn't get to where you needed to go, or you couldn't stay there once you got there.
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4. Watch a girl do it.
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4. Watch a girl do it.
As a feminist I take great offence at that
Why can't they just watch a weak man instead? :p
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Footwork isn't as good, as a rule. And who'd want to watch me??
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Can't remember where I got them but I do a few drills when I'm doing ARC sessions, and sometimes on the boulder wall. Climbing hard slabs indoors seems to have really paid off in regards to footwork too
1) silent feet drills (climb routes/problems with completely silent feet)
2) 3 foot movements per hand movement (more on routes than others) sometimes you have to be inventive to find somewhere to put your foot before you can 'move' again
3) Deliberately clipping lead routes across your body, even if it makes it harder (love this one)
4) practising ridiculously high steps, rockovers etc.
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Footwork isn't as good, as a rule.
That's the second most sexist comment since dfbwgc got pulled
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3 - Learn to assess where your body should start and end moves. If you fall was it because you couldn't get to where you needed to go, or you couldn't stay there once you got there.
On this point,
* If I cannot stay when I get there, I find it sometimes help on hard moves to hold the end-position of the move and then move around a bit, move the hips and shoulders, try various forms of pressure on the feet etc. To better understand how to hold on. If I cannot keep my feet on I check if this is truly the case by trying to hang the final position with the feet still on the starting footholds. If it is truly not possible to keep the feet on I swing around a bit to figure out where I'm going to kick the wall/swing my foot on to stop the swing.
* If I cannot get to the end position, it still helps sometimes to hang the hold I'm going for and move around to see how low the body can be while I can still grab the hold. If it is on a hold-studded indoor wall, I then try the move with a higher trailing hand than the original move and practice that a few times.
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OK, one can't really learn technique from fingerboarding ... directly. But.
Last night with only a few kilos assist I found I was fairly comfortable doing repeaters on a hold I that can barely hang at bodyweight. Helped me realise how much difference it can make to get just a little bit more weight onto the feet. A mate I climb with regularly, who climbs 7c to my barely 7a, says I don't work hard enough at milking marginal footholds on steep ground, so I definitely have scope there.
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1) silent feet drills (climb routes/problems with completely silent feet)
2) 3 foot movements per hand movement (more on routes than others) sometimes you have to be inventive to find somewhere to put your foot before you can 'move' again
3) Deliberately clipping lead routes across your body, even if it makes it harder (love this one)
4) practising ridiculously high steps, rockovers etc.
I'm highly sceptical of things like (2) and (3), since they're technique drills that are teaching you to use poor technique/tactics. Same with (1) to some extent. If I'm trying to ingrain good technique, I don't see using bad technique as being a good way to do it. E.g. with silent feet - this is only good if it teaches you to place your foot quickly and accurately, if you end up placing your feet silently after using the exercise, by placing your feet really slowly, then all you've done is to learn to climb slow and shit :shrug:
* If I cannot stay when I get there, I find it sometimes help on hard moves to hold the end-position of the move and then move around a bit, move the hips and shoulders, try various forms of pressure on the feet etc. To better understand how to hold on.
+1.
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1) silent feet drills (climb routes/problems with completely silent feet)
2) 3 foot movements per hand movement (more on routes than others) sometimes you have to be inventive to find somewhere to put your foot before you can 'move' again
3) Deliberately clipping lead routes across your body, even if it makes it harder (love this one)
4) practising ridiculously high steps, rockovers etc.
I'm highly sceptical of things like (2) and (3), since they're technique drills that are teaching you to use poor technique/tactics. Same with (1) to some extent. If I'm trying to ingrain good technique, I don't see using bad technique as being a good way to do it. E.g. with silent feet - this is only good if it teaches you to place your foot quickly and accurately, if you end up placing your feet silently after using the exercise, by placing your feet really slowly, then all you've done is to learn to climb slow and shit :shrug:
I'd suggest that that is the opinion of someone who has already learnt what the drills are meant to be teaching you.
1) Silent feet drill - the aim is to teach precision, placing your foot silently encourages this, but as you highlight requires one to slow down and place it slowly....initially. You make the mistake that this is the end point of this drill but its not, because as with anything you practice you increase your proficiency and over time you get better at it, meaning it takes you less time to select and place your foot whilst maintaining precision.
2) Three foot movements - To my mind this teaches two things a) being able to use poor foot holds (by forcing you to make the movements when you might step high to better ones), but more importantly b) the importance of having the right foothold. For many who learn solely indoors where foot holds are marked out they don't have the knowledge / kinaestehtic awareness about the benefits of having the most appropriate foot placement for the upcoming move confers. For those who are starting/learning by forcing them to do this they start to feel the difference it has on their center of gravity, since moving the feet around will shift this and they start to learn to not just look for the obvious coloured hold/screw-on but look at small features and whether given their individual body size moving the foot a few inches out to the side will make the move slightly easier because they are then in a more stable position.
3) Awkward clips - Its not meant to teach you that you should always make clipping as awkward as possible, but there will inevitably be some clips that are awkward to make, by practicing such clips the learner will benefit by not being stumped/phased when they then encounter them (as they might not be able to get a kneebar).
Overall its about increasing awareness not just of what is good, but what is bad, since you can not fully appreciate one without having experienced the other.
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1) silent feet drills (climb routes/problems with completely silent feet)
2) 3 foot movements per hand movement (more on routes than others) sometimes you have to be inventive to find somewhere to put your foot before you can 'move' again
3) Deliberately clipping lead routes across your body, even if it makes it harder (love this one)
4) practising ridiculously high steps, rockovers etc.
I'm highly sceptical of things like (2) and (3), since they're technique drills that are teaching you to use poor technique/tactics. Same with (1) to some extent. If I'm trying to ingrain good technique, I don't see using bad technique as being a good way to do it. E.g. with silent feet - this is only good if it teaches you to place your foot quickly and accurately, if you end up placing your feet silently after using the exercise, by placing your feet really slowly, then all you've done is to learn to climb slow and shit :shrug:
Agree, sort of.
I think things like point 1 and 2 are worth doing a few times for beginners to increase awareness of what the lower part of the body is doing. Also add maybe 1b) pushing really hard with the feet even after having grabbed the next hold.
But I agree that if doing it as a matter of course just ingrains bad technique.
When doing high volume (for aerobic capability/power or basic preparation) it is wort remembering that “practice make permanent”. Too many climbers are moving really bad on warm-ups & high volume training, thus ingraining bad movement-patterns.
(while I was writing this Slackline also replied, but whatever)
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If I had to simplify it down for advanced options, I'd say:
1 - Learn to move dynamically: deadpointing, one foot cutting, and two foot cutting. All of these are very different. Learn to deadpoint via hipthrust, shoulder thrust, body whip, etc.
This is definitely helpful. :clap2:
Moving dynamically through more than one move sequences I find very difficult. For example, two and three move sequences where you can't fully setup and need to use momentum in a subtle way seems to be where there is huge room for improvement.
Can't remember where I got them but I do a few drills when I'm doing ARC sessions, and sometimes on the boulder wall. Climbing hard slabs indoors seems to have really paid off in regards to footwork too
1) silent feet drills (climb routes/problems with completely silent feet)
2) 3 foot movements per hand movement (more on routes than others) sometimes you have to be inventive to find somewhere to put your foot before you can 'move' again
3) Deliberately clipping lead routes across your body, even if it makes it harder (love this one)
4) practising ridiculously high steps, rockovers etc.
Thanks, these types of drills have always felt valuable for improving your climbing efficiency (e.g. getting better at doing moves you can already do), but I find them hard to translate to improving my technique on the high end "hard for me moves." However, watching Drew Ruana on Just Do It made me realize there is room for improvement on my high-step rockovers and hip turnout.
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Can somebody explain how to 'body whip' please?
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a complementary approach to drills that help you build a specific technique would be to do drills that help you becoming a better learner.
these in my opinion fall in two general categories:
-anything that forces you to do use "extreme" solutions, to be playful and inventive, to recognize the boundary between injury-prone and simply "odd feeling".
-anything that increases your awareness of things you're not overly used to notice, such as subtle shifts in muscular tensions, balance, timing of your moves, etc...
two examples:
-one handed climbing, especially if done on a wall that is steep enough that you can't just stay balanced on your feet, and the moves are not purely straight up. You need to be forced to dyno and to react quickly to off-balance situations.
-blindfolded climbing, done properly. The aim should be to move as precisely as possible, without slowing down too much or hesitating, as if you could see the holds, relying only on your "3d awareness" and visualization skills. The number and character of moves and ascent style (redpointed to death, tried once or twice, flash, o/s) should therefore be adapted to your abilities so that this feat is challenging, but possible.
my hope as climbing instructor is that this kind of stuff will make my climbers better at adapting themselves spontaneously and quickly to a move/problem/route and at copying others (as in: looking a few beta-videos of the boulder problem they'd like to try and being able to "feel" and understand even those moves that are odd/new to them)
this is not my own invention: for instance, a lot of the "german boulder team training" stuff seen in udo neumann's videos looks (to me) to have a similar philosophy.
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another unconventional drill idea.
pick two or three challenging boulder problems or routes. (they should have different charachters: powerful vs delicate, positive holds vs slopers, etc)
pick two or three breathing patterns, for instance :
1)short, forced exhaling, sync with your moves (power screaming, grunting)
2)Deep but relatively fast, diaphragm driven, continuous, off-sync with your moves
3) Deep, slow and square (a small apnea phase at full and empty lungs)
pick different climbing rhythms/attitudes:
-ondra fast, with an element of agressiveness
-sloth like, slow and relaxed
-etc
pick a few mental imagery options:
-something that makes you feel angry and willing to have a physical fight with someone.
-memories of happy, relaxed places
-sense of urgency, "i must send now"
-distractions (thinking and or talking about something else)
different core and shoulder tension levels.
then experiment with as many combinations as possible and notice if successful patterns emerge, if and how different moves require you to be in a different "zone", etc
also: on an easy and continuous route, play a game of shifting mode very quickly and dramatically every two draws (eg going from sloth-like and relaxed to quick, springy and agry to death, and reverse)
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Can somebody explain how to 'body whip' please?
50 shades of grey is coming out soon - that may have some pointers...
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Can somebody explain how to 'body whip' please?
I'll try to remember to find a video of this and post it.
Basically the idea is to use your body to generate a deadpoint moment where you can move your hand. When you're at your limit, you'll often find you can't release a hand or foot, and you can't generate any momentum from them as they are fully engaged staying on the wall. Or in cases where the goal is not to generate upwards momentum. In this case how do you generate momentum to create a deadpoint moment where you can release a hand? I find that by starting with my belly forward, and shoulders/chest back, I can roll my chest/shoulders forward and create that moment of inertia where I can move my hand.
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aka head-butting the wall
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1) silent feet drills (climb routes/problems with completely silent feet)
This isn't the first time I've heard people doubt the value of silent feet. I read the self-coached climber before I started climbing, so started the silent feet drills straight away. Back in the day I would just give up on a move if I couldn't do it with perfectly silent feet but I'm not so strict now.
I remember watching Tim Emmett and Dave Pickford doing circuits at TCA and they definitely were not doing silent feet. If anything it sounded like they were doing loud feet but they were placing their feet quickly. I think both of them are decent climbers so that definitely made me rethink the silent feet thing too...
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many drills are meaningful or not depending on the climber and how they are "sold" to him/her
silent feet and similar stuff (the bleausard coin thing or long draws attached to the heel loops) are good for beginners in order to draw their focus on foot placement, something they often have trouble with.
Even though 90% of the problem is that they rarely adopt body positions that make it easy to move one of their legs (eg on slabs they do not fully shift their balance from one foot to the other)
the same drills lose value as soon as they are taken as standards of perfect foot placement, especially by more advanced climbers.
but such is the nature of many drills, imho.
another example taken from this thread: "3 foot moves per hand move".
if done in combination with variations such as half foot move, 1 foot move and 2 foot moves version, on the same route by the same climber, the drill has a place (developing several "transition patterns" to be used in between hand moves)
But as already pointed out, 3 foot moves per hand move is not "good technique" in itself and may even be a very poor pattern in some (most) cases.
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I'm sorry but anyone advocating silent feet, one handed climbing or blindfolded climbing should be shot at fucking dawn.
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I guess silent feet is a bit of a misnomer, as what most people are trying (i hope) is to learn to place their feet quickly and accurately. I learnt alot about footwork from slab climbing, as often it's near impossible to just match a hold and thug around until you've done the 'move'. Highly recommended :). Those drills I find are good to pass the time when warming up, I would argue that whether or not in themselves are improving technique, they make you more aware what you are doing with your feet in general which can't be a bad thing.
To be honest if someone warms up doing 3 feet for 1 hand and then climbs like that on their limit boulder/redpoint or whatever, then they're probably a lost cause already :-\
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I'm sorry but anyone advocating [...] one handed climbing [...] climbing should be shot at fucking dawn.
Seems to work well for Kev Shields ;D
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I'm sorry but anyone advocating silent feet, one handed climbing or blindfolded climbing should be shot at fucking dawn.
ok but after you shot me, try one handed climbing on a gently overhanging wall ;)
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One thing I hadn't seen mentioned yet, for beginners I've found no-hands climbing on slabs good for helping improve balance, weight transfer etc. - give said beginner a tennis ball in each hand, no hooking of the tennis balls on holds. Always good to see someone stick their ass out too far and topple off backwards while attempting a not very high step...
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I'm sorry but anyone advocating [...] one handed climbing [...] climbing should be shot at fucking dawn.
Seems to work well for Kev Shields ;D
Lee's technique is impeccable, so he's worth listening to on this. I think.
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aka head-butting the wall
we call it the cockney head
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The Glasgow Kiss.
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So how many times have you climbed blindfolded or one handed Johnny? Scratch the last one since I know it's on certain pony circuits ;)
Crock of horse shit that you feed to people who want to part with their money.
As an addition, I've never smoked but I know it's bad for you
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Here's a novel idea. Go and do lots of rock climbing.
Think about specificity in training. This stuff about drills is all very well, but I actually think its probably best directed at intermediate/advanced climbers, who have an all round base of good technique, but who need to master a particular aspect of this in order to do a specific problem or route. Climbing is just so varied that there is no single way of isolating a certain type of move i.e. "rockovers" - because even within the bracket of 'rockovers' there is almost infinite variety. You would be better off trying to replicate whatever move it is that's stopping you and practicising on it.
How to get that good base of technique? Simple - go and climb rock (this is something that has not been suggested in two pages of discussion. Not indoor walls - rocks. Easy bouldering is best, and by easy I mean not so easy that you can do it blindfolded, or even necessarily flash the problem, but not so hard that you cannot have a degree of focus on what you're doing. If you find a problem particuarly enjoyable, repeat it. You will notice what works and what doesn't as your technique subtly varies. On rocks you will find the necessary variety that you won't find at the climbing wall and, best of all, climbing rocks with good technique is really transferrable to climbing rocks with good technique.
I really really don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet here, but in the past few months at least three separate people have told me that I have good technique. This is rather embarrasing. Not for me; for them. I don't have good technique, it is average at best. JB has good technique. Tom Peckitt has immaculate technique. Did you see that video of him doing the direct to Ill Gotten Gains? Watching that sort of precise, graceful motion is like listening to a beautiful piece of music. It is flawless. The fact of the matter is that people seem to have very little interest in easy(ish) bouldering these days. They get down the wall for hours and hours and hours and then go out to pull down hard on a couple of problems. This is especially the case with young climbers who have only ever done this and have never spent the hours in just enjoying movement on rock.
There are countless venues where this kind of circuit-like climbing is a dream. Almscliff, Rochard, Hugencroft, The Roaches, Lord's Seat (90% of climbers seem to do McNab and Deep Black - incidentally one of the worst problems at the crag - and then leave), Shipley Glen, Hunter's Stones etc etc etc etc)
Sorry, I've ranted.
Last thing. If you want to speed up the process then get into the habit of visualising what you've just done when you fall off something. Relive the problem in your head and visualise what it felt like. You will realise why it was that you fell off, and it is quite rarely because you just weren't pulling hard enough.
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Here's a novel idea. Go and do lots of rock climbing.
With a rope on doing fantastic trad routes on the grit, limestone and mountain crags.
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Worth noting that 'technique' and 'technique' are different - circuits around grit crags will not help you much in most caves, and vice-versa, so you need to do lots of climbing on lots of different rock types. Ditto, route technique and boulder technique are not always the same, i.e. techniques involved in climbing efficiently on ground which is moderately difficult for you can be quite different to that involved in climbing moves at you limit... The 'technique' of establishing what ways of climbing a move will work on link vs off a rope matter too - the best way to climb a move is not always a fixed thing, and may depend on whether it's move 1, move 21 or move 81 on a route/problem, as well as the relative importance of speed etc..
With a rope on doing fantastic trad routes on the grit, limestone and mountain crags.
There's another one to watch out for - good trad technique is a million miles away from good steep sport technique.
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Only one way to learn technique, repetition repetition repetition. Thats how it is in all sports so why would climbing be any different.
Have you never noticed how if you repeat the same problems a lot they get easier, i suggest this is more to to do with learning efficiency than getting stronger even on steep problems. even someone with poor technique will get better and better through repetition and then carry it over to the next problem of that type. Forget all the quiet feet/blindfolds/1 handed stuff and just do the problem you just sketched up again and again until you do it well.
If you climb outside a lot you don't really have much choice as the problems dont change every time you go out so after a few trips to stanage/burbage/stoney/ the tor you have little option other than to repeat stuff you have done as part of your circuit. Modern walls don't allow this as they change all the problems so every time you go your trying to tick a new set, either flashing each problem or moving on after a few goes, rarely doing the same ones more than a couple of times so not enough to refine techniques and building up engrams.
Most used to climb outdoors a lot more than now so we didn't have much choice ( I have problems i must have done 500+ times at Kyloe and Bowden). I think that is why we associate climbing outside as being better for training technique rather than walls where as if you approached climbing at a good well set wall in the same manner the outcome would be the same.
It did lead to a lot more show ponies than now though, the only ones you see now are on the campus board and beastmaker.
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Only one way to learn technique, repetition repetition repetition. Thats how it is in all sports so why would climbing be any different.
Most sports have coaches who lead people down the "good" technique path. Most of the folks without coaches or coaching end up punters or injured. So you're right, why would climbing be any different?
Aside from the fact we have very few quality coaches, but from watching my kids coaches I'd say that it's not just climbng that has crap coaches :)
Here's a novel idea. Go and do lots of rock climbing.
For someone operating in their first 0-3 years of climbing, I'd agree with this. And heck, I even do this after 20 years of climbing, but I'd not say I have good technique as a result.
You get better at what you do. I can pretty much guarantee climbing a load of v2-v4 problems are not going to teach you the technique it takes to climb v10. However, It will teach you the technique to not pitch off the v2 topout :)
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[/quote]
Most sports have coaches who lead people down the "good" technique path. Most of the folks without coaches or coaching end up punters or injured. So you're right, why would climbing be any different?[/quote]
The level of repetition in other sports compared to climbing is not comparable. Unless you have the boredom threshold of Barrows you wont even be able to do 1% of 1% of the repetition levels that can cause injury that you get in any ball sport, running, throwing, swimming etc. so i dont think climbing something repeatedly with bad technique will cause injury, its more likely to happen through overload.
And i also think that a majority (not all) people will work out technique for themselves if they try. We all managed to learn to walk, run, stand on one leg without a coach didn't we. Big, obvious things like using an outside edge, drop knees etc can be learned just by standing back for five minutes and watching someone else do the problem. The nuances of great technique you will pick up naturally the more times you do the problem.
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With a rope on doing fantastic trad routes on the grit, limestone and mountain crags.
There's another one to watch out for - good trad technique is a million miles away from good steep sport technique.
I agree 100% but as a relative beginner you can't go wrong with a good foundation of climbing a variety of routes on different rock types to build a good base of movement fluency and then move onto steeper stuff. Plus you learn to top out...
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And i also think that a majority (not all) people will work out technique for themselves if they try.
yes, but
We all managed to learn to walk, run, stand on one leg without a coach didn't we.
when you were a child and your brain was wired for that. Pre-puberal children are often "naturals" at picking up good motor skills. They can be tachnically impressive on their first climbing session ever, provided that they're enthusiastic and not too scared.
It is often more difficult to induce them verbally to do a certain kind of move, than to throw them at a sequence of holds where that move is the only way to go.
As adults we are much slower and becoming a "motor learner" again is harder than you make it sound, and especially so if you didn't play sports in the "right" way (with enough committment and attention to what you were actually doing) during puberty.
Thats were a good coach can help, at least from the French point of view.
@dense
if one handes climbing is so ineffective, why would the italian 9a climber and campus-boarding guru Jolly Lamberti advocate it, often as the only climbing content in strenght sessions which are mainly consisting of campusing and weighted fingerboarding?
and for blindfolding, why in the hell have i seen that prescribed by national youth coaches to to national-level teens at Pole France Escalade, on comp-style boulder problems? (mind, that's probably 1% of their training time there. but they did do it)
that said, yes, there's a circus element in it and maybe you should not try them in public if you're giving a shit about what peers might think and say when they see you. But then you also have a potential "sports psychology" issue to be adressed one day or another...
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Last thing. If you want to speed up the process then get into the habit of visualising what you've just done when you fall off something. Relive the problem in your head and visualise what it felt like. You will realise why it was that you fell off, and it is quite rarely because you just weren't pulling hard enough.
This is sorta true, if you're working something and in a relatively calm frame of mind but if you are a genuine punter like me, above your gear and a little pumped, pressuring yourself to get the onsight - it's hard sometimes to see what went wrong, it's lost in a haze of fear and adrenalin.
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And i also think that a majority (not all) people will work out technique for themselves if they try. We all managed to learn to walk, run, stand on one leg without a coach didn't we. Big, obvious things like using an outside edge, drop knees etc can be learned just by standing back for five minutes and watching someone else do the problem. The nuances of great technique you will pick up naturally the more times you do the problem.
I think there is a huge advantage to not having to work everything out for yourself. With the current body of training/technique information on climbing many people can climb 8a while holding down a job, family, and other outside obligations within a few years of picking up the sport. 30 years ago that wasn't the case.
I think there is a difference between improving technique on problems you can do and improving technique so you can do problems you previously couldn't do.
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and for blindfolding, why in the hell have i seen that prescribed by national youth coaches to to national-level teens at Pole France Escalade, on comp-style boulder problems? (mind, that's probably 1% of their training time there. but they did do it)
Because they are French, and therefore liars by nature. They try to fool you that it's all "ooohhh ze rock iz good" "pas le genoux" "ohhhh la la la la dalle est tres bonne" while in reality the bring up the little bastards on campusing and weights at the crack of the whip.
:devil-smiley: :guilty:
Bear in mind that I come from French origins.
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@ nibs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW4X4cuHxIg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW4X4cuHxIg)
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QED.
P.s. My ears!!!
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I think there is a huge advantage to not having to work everything out for yourself. With the current body of training/technique information on climbing many people can climb 8a while holding down a job, family, and other outside obligations within a few years of picking up the sport. 30 years ago that wasn't the case.
I think there is a difference between improving technique on problems you can do and improving technique so you can do problems you previously couldn't do.
[/quote]
My post wasn't supposed to be about whether you need a coach or not, that's down to choice and a completely different topic. But having a coach telling you how to do something isnt going to improve your technique its repeated practice of what they tell you that does that. I would put money on it that if you had a coach with you every session you climbed they would have you repeating stuff over and over.
And as to your last comment i am sorry but that is just bollocks. You learn technique on easy stuff then progress. If you want to learn how to dead lift do you learn good technique with loads of weight on the bar? No you start with very little weight until you can do it correctly. Learn to play guitar by playing copying Hendrix. No you learn a few chords to start.
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As an addition, I've never smoked but I know it's bad for you
Thanks for flippantly picking up on what I wrote, unfortunately you're comparing chalk and cheese.
This is epistemological, but how do you "know" that smoking is bad for you if you've never done it yourself? Or is it something you've learnt from the work others have done? Clearly its the later.
Smoking has been well studied scientifically to produce a body of knowledge as to its effects. The effect is large in terms of the difference it makes (several orders of magnitude increased risk of certain diseases). You accept this knowledge and choose not to smoke.
Climbing technique has not been studied anywhere near as broadly and rigorously in a scientific framework. There is a body of evidence as to what constitutes 'good' technique and what constitutes 'bad' technique and books and articles/blogs have been written. The effects are sometimes very marked, but they are more often very subtle in the difference improving ones technique can make to the ease with which a move can be completed, and its is a lot harder to convey in words and numbers what this difference is. It could be done by sitting done and working out the physics and the forces involved, akin to a scientific (well engineering really) approach, but how many people do you realistically think will sit down and read a whole load of diagrams with angles, forces etc. for a very limited set of moves since the ground covered climbing is infinitely variable and then internalise that information, as you have done with the scientific evidence that smoking is bad, and then apply it effectively to the rock?
I'm sure you'd agree that no one is going to do that, and it would be impossible for anyone to sit down and just read books on technique and then go out and be able to execute them perfectly (in contrast its quite easy to read the information on smoking and decide its bad and choose not to smoke). Rather what they do is they go and try it for themselves and learn kinaesthetically by trying different things to see what constitutes good and bad technique, this process can be self-reinforcing and once you start to get a good appreciation for what works you can read moves much quicker. Everyone picks things up from others at the climbing wall to try for themselves when stumped on a problem and watching others. Some read books on technique (e.g. the recommended Self Coached Climber or Goddard & Udini's Performance Rock Climbing). Some go and seek the advice of coaches to analyse their current climbing form and make recommendations for improvement. But the 'crux' is that they then go and actually try the things themselves and see what difference things make, which is why I wrote that you can't fully appreciate good technique without having an appreciation for bad technique.
Your comparison with smoking is therefore glib but I expect you knew this when you wrote it.
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If you climb outside a lot you don't really have much choice as the problems dont change every time you go out so after a few trips to stanage/burbage/stoney/ the tor you have little option other than to repeat stuff you have done as part of your circuit. Modern walls don't allow this as they change all the problems so every time you go your trying to tick a new set, either flashing each problem or moving on after a few goes, rarely doing the same ones more than a couple of times so not enough to refine techniques and building up engrams.
Most used to climb outdoors a lot more than now so we didn't have much choice ( I have problems i must have done 500+ times at Kyloe and Bowden). I think that is why we associate climbing outside as being better for training technique rather than walls where as if you approached climbing at a good well set wall in the same manner the outcome would be the same.
I'm not sure I agree with you GME - but equally I may be missing your point... but...
I find repeating problems (at crags) good for refining technique rather than strength.. sure if you do the problem enough times your muscles get conditioned to that set of pulling/moves, but I think you also improve your technique over a range of levels.. You learn how hard or not you need to hold a crimp (for example), how subtle body position makes the problem easier/different. Theres a set of problems for me at Almscliff I must have done getting on 100 times (or so) and the refinements I have made over the years to these problems are nearly all technique based... I love doing problems that were hard for me by knack (ie technique)...
I see why walls alter problems so regularly - but it also annoys me - as you lose your touchstones, your calibration problems - by that I mean problems by which you can determine how well or not you are performing. Thats partly why I like doing the same problems at the crag - as it gives me an idea of how good or bad I am doing that day (as ageing the perpetual injury/fitness battle seems to make this more important..)
Another reason for doing more outside than in - is that there are often so many different ways to do a problem outdoors (especially with grit/sandstone) whereas at the wall there is normally one or two ways - and thats it.. I think this helps people learn how to use technique in their own context - for their own body/strength/flexibility etc.. rather than for connecting 5 pink blobs...
Just my tuppence worth.. I'm shit outdoors but even shitter in :)
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Sorry slackers I was replying to johnnys assessment of my technique being amazing so people should listen to me. Which was of course saying lee's shit so why would anyone listen, at which point I brought the smoking "analogy" in. As in do as I say not as I do.
Nothing to do with your post at all :ras:
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:oops: :sorry:
I didn't pick up the sarcasm in Adams post and there was no use of quotes to indicate that was whom you were replying to. I mistakenly took 1 + 1 = sausages.
No offence intended, I was just reinforcing what I wrote earlier.
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No sarcasm intended - like Bruce, Lee moves like water on rock. Only it's frozen water - imperceptibly slowly followed by sudden collapse.
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Another reason for doing more outside than in - is that there are often so many different ways to do a problem outdoors (especially with grit/sandstone) whereas at the wall there is normally one or two ways - and thats it.. I think this helps people learn how to use technique in their own context - for their own body/strength/flexibility etc.. rather than for connecting 5 pink blobs...
I'm really getting into using the training boards at the back of the Depot lately. Initially trying to up my pitiful power by using the 50ish degree board. Now though, I'm getting into the 30ish degree board which has just been refitted with lots of crap downwards sloping footholds. I feel (possibly wrongly) that this set-up partly addresses the weakness of indoor problems you cited - as it gives lots of possible solutions but they are all awful! Hopefully it will set up this year's route campaign - trying to quickly execute multiple foot moves on terrible smears, to allow a single hand move between nasty holds - seems like it should be pretty good preparation for Malham!
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As a short weak old punter I find that outdoors allows me more room for creativity and imagination in the technique I use in solving a problem as I often have to use the main holds differently, intermediates, poorer foot holds etc; this often makes the easy problem harder but the bonus for me is experience in creative problem solving and learning maximum efficiency in using holds. Conversely indoors the local wall has no intermediates or textured wall surface and a fixed set of holds, that teaches me the techniques for getting round a different sort of problem that the alternatives available outdoors allows me to mostly avoid; so far so good, but... I've always felt that my technique issue is not physical but more mental in that I struggle to remember to use the lessons learned when I'm climbing and having the discipline to apply them consistently, especially footwork, even more so when out of my comfort zone. For me I would hope that better mental discipline would ingrain the technique to hopefully become second nature; so I think mental laziness essentially is the biggest barrier to improving my technique to a consistently high level, that and the fact I am a crap weak punter.
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I'm not sure I agree with you GME - but equally I may be missing your point... but...
I find repeating problems (at crags) good for refining technique rather than strength.. sure if you do the problem enough times your muscles get conditioned to that set of pulling/moves, but I think you also improve your technique over a range of levels.. You learn how hard or not you need to hold a crimp (for example), how subtle body position makes the problem easier/different. Theres a set of problems for me at Almscliff I must have done getting on 100 times (or so) and the refinements I have made over the years to these problems are nearly all technique based... I love doing problems that were hard for me by knack (ie technique)...
I see why walls alter problems so regularly - but it also annoys me - as you lose your touchstones, your calibration problems - by that I mean problems by which you can determine how well or not you are performing. Thats partly why I like doing the same problems at the crag - as it gives me an idea of how good or bad I am doing that day (as ageing the perpetual injury/fitness battle seems to make this more important..)
Another reason for doing more outside than in - is that there are often so many different ways to do a problem outdoors (especially with grit/sandstone) whereas at the wall there is normally one or two ways - and thats it.. I think this helps people learn how to use technique in their own context - for their own body/strength/flexibility etc.. rather than for connecting 5 pink blobs...
Just my tuppence worth.. I'm shit outdoors but even shitter in :)
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Sounds like your totally agreeing with me. The only think your maybe not is that i feel well set stuff in doors could teach technique just as well as outdoors.
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I'm sure well set problems indoors teach indoor technique better than rock would. I'm not convinced they can ever teach technique for rock better than rock.
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Thant goes without saying surely. I feel that people assume you cant learn to have good technique climbing indoors which used to be the case due to the type of walls but not anymore.
Just trying to debunk the go to response of "go climbing outside" to this question.
People can learn to be much better technically whether indoors or out its what you do that's important not where they do it.
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My post wasn't supposed to be about whether you need a coach or not, that's down to choice and a completely different topic. But having a coach telling you how to do something isnt going to improve your technique its repeated practice of what they tell you that does that. I would put money on it that if you had a coach with you every session you climbed they would have you repeating stuff over and over.
And as to your last comment i am sorry but that is just bollocks. You learn technique on easy stuff then progress. If you want to learn how to dead lift do you learn good technique with loads of weight on the bar? No you start with very little weight until you can do it correctly. Learn to play guitar by playing copying Hendrix. No you learn a few chords to start.
:agree:
Sorry, I don't think I explained myself well. I wasn't trying to argue against what you were saying. I think I am just really splitting your suggestion into two pieces:
1) Find something you can do poorly and repeat it until you can do it well
2) When you can't do something, start with an easier version of it and work up to being able to do it
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My post wasn't supposed to be about whether you need a coach or not, that's down to choice and a completely different topic. But having a coach telling you how to do something isnt going to improve your technique its repeated practice of what they tell you that does that. I would put money on it that if you had a coach with you every session you climbed they would have you repeating stuff over and over.
And as to your last comment i am sorry but that is just bollocks. You learn technique on easy stuff then progress. If you want to learn how to dead lift do you learn good technique with loads of weight on the bar? No you start with very little weight until you can do it correctly. Learn to play guitar by playing copying Hendrix. No you learn a few chords to start.
:agree:
Sorry, I don't think I explained myself well. I wasn't trying to argue against what you were saying. I think I am just really splitting your suggestion into two pieces:
1) Find something you can do poorly and repeat it until you can do it well
2) When you can't do something, start with an easier version of it and work up to being able to do it
Are we talking about the best ways for a beginner to learn new technique, or someone more advanced with more mileage under their belt. Climber A has been climbing for about 1-2 years and is bouldering 7A at the wall 6A outside. Climber B has been climbing for 5 years and is bouldering 7A at the wall, and 6C outside. Or take climber C who can RP 7A and Flash/OS 6C+.
I think what you're saying is ideal for climber A, but not for Climber B or C.
I have learned more about the nuances of advanced technique working projects and developing new problems than any amount of "repetition" would teach me. And I think it's far more applicable to pushing your limits in terms of repointing-particularly bouldering. The catch is that this is generally outside rather than inside, without knowledge of the beta, which means being creative with sequences and experimenting. I feel like this experimentation tends to teach you more than repetition. Do the same thing down at the wall, and you'll learn more as well. If you climb v5, then pick a v8 or v9, and try to climb it with any feet. You'll start to learn that you pull differently on crap holds with both your hands and feet, and you'll naturally learn to optimize your feet.
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Are we talking about the best ways for a beginner to learn new technique, or someone more advanced with more mileage under their belt.
This is a good point. What would be your overall approach/suggestion to improving technique for someone in the V8/9 range wanting to break into the V10 range? Is this an area where you need to learn a lot more moves or is it more subtle and you have to camp out on V10?
It definitely seems like the approaches to technique for bouldering are different than the approaches to technique for climbing on a rope... :slap:
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Sasquatch. Is working problems not just another form of repetition. You don't do the problem once you have done the moves. You repeat the moves over and over to refine how you do them. Exactly what I suggest.
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Sasquatch. Is working problems not just another form of repetition. You don't do the problem once you have done the moves. You repeat the moves over and over to refine how you do them. Exactly what I suggest.
Not really. Both you and Blamo indicated working on stuff you can already climb and repeat them to get better at them. Doing something you can already do doesn't force improvement. It MAY end up with improvement if you are consciously thinking about improving every single time you repeat it. Whereas working out something at your limit forces perfection in movement or improvement in strength.
And I think it you're trying to improve your technique, then not knowing the Beta is critical. It will force you to experiment and learn to recognize when something will or won't work and you'll start to figure out/learn why as well.
It definitely seems like the approaches to technique for bouldering are different than the approaches to technique for climbing on a rope... :slap:
Yes/no - as Barrow mentioned earlier in the thread, there are different ranges of technique to consider, i.e. resting, pacing, etc. that are generally not as applicable in bouldering. However, the ability to efficiently complete a move remains the same.
Are we talking about the best ways for a beginner to learn new technique, or someone more advanced with more mileage under their belt.
This is a good point. What would be your overall approach/suggestion to improving technique for someone in the V8/9 range wanting to break into the V10 range? Is this an area where you need to learn a lot more moves or is it more subtle and you have to camp out on V10?
hmmm. Outside or inside? Outside, learn to be efficient and versatile on feet and feet options. There are always feet of some nature, and you can almost always find scums/smears to assist in maintaining tension/balance. Being able to confidently stand on the shittest hold also makes a huge difference. As you mentioned, really pulling with your heel - but think both pulling towards your center as well as pulling down while extending the body, they are very different. I'm quite good a one, but pretty crap at the other :)
Inside, not sure, I can barely manage v10 inside, so it's still a new frontier for me. :shrug:
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Sasquatch, Thanks for the suggestions. Good stuff! :2thumbsup:
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My post wasn't supposed to be about whether you need a coach or not, that's down to choice and a completely different topic. But having a coach telling you how to do something isnt going to improve your technique its repeated practice of what they tell you that does that.
spot on.
whenever i have customers coming for their climbing technique, i adress this point. My goal is to showing them a way to get where they want and they will need to do a lot of "homeworks" in between sessions.
Unfortunately some of them seem to use their technique as an excuse to hire a private belayer, which is good for my wallet but quite boring (and not overly effective for them, is suapect)
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I guess there should be some clarification too though. I know people who when they go climb they warm-up on 1-2 problems then start working on some nails projects for a bit, maybe scraping their way up one or two. This is their daily routine, and they end up with fairly shit technique despite working hard problems.
I know people who do the same problems all the time, but never really through themselves at projects enough. They don't really learn the subtleties of technique needed to climb harder stuff. I think there is an optimal medium. You have to look at your own situation and see where you stand.
I'm not a believer in repeating the same problem over and over just to get better technique. However, I am a big believer in overall volume of problems of all styles, rock types, grades, etc.
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Nobody can arbitrarily answer these "what should I do to climb x grade" questions. Go try a handful of V10s and think about why you're failing, then go train that thing.
Let's put it this way, I don't recall falling off of V10s because my technique was poor (though if they had been slabs then this would have been the case), it's always been because I'm weak.
I'm not sure how someone could get to V9 standard and still have bad technique, massively over strong I guess?!
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Let's put it this way, I don't recall falling off of V10s because my technique was poor (though if they had been slabs then this would have been the case), it's always been because I'm weak.
Have you considered that you may have fallen off them because you're too weak to do them with poor technique?
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I know people who do the same problems all the time, but never really through themselves at projects enough. They don't really learn the subtleties of technique needed to climb harder stuff. I think there is an optimal medium.
my french mentors would say it's a matter of optimal challenge.
too small a challenge=nothing new is learned
too big= it is beyond your understanding and you can't learn anything from it right now.
i'd say it is also a matter of how
even trying problems in that "optimal challenge" range, there is a big difference between:
-just trying trying and trying again, like this :wall:
-doing your best to read problems and give them your best flash attempt, step back after failure, visualize your last moves and how you could have done differently, etc
(which most of us will do naturally and even unconsciously at some point, but is not obvious for all climbers transitioning from "beginner" to "passionate/hardcore/experienced")
being a beta freak with a penchant for guru stuff i insist a lot on this with climbers around say 5c-6c (routes) and i see a wide array of reactions. Some like it and give this kind of stuff a real effort and adopt it as a systematic approach, with good results.
Others are like "why should i take it so seriously, i just want to climb better and enjoy it, not to send biographie or flash boulder wc problems". Usually they keep climbing the same way unless i have them repeating a boring drill for 20 minutes, and spend the remaining 40 minutes beta-flashing them.
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Let's put it this way, I don't recall falling off of V10s because my technique was poor (though if they had been slabs then this would have been the case), it's always been because I'm weak.
Have you considered that you may have fallen off them because you're too weak to do them with poor technique?
I appreciate that you're messing around Duma but of course I've considered that.
The fact is that I'm always the weakest in the group I'm climbing in at my grade range, and usually still the weakest if I'm climbing with people climbing a few grades below me. I like to think that I must be doing something right to be the weakest in the group but still get up stuff (disclaimer: I've been weak AND shit lately).
I'm not complaining though, most people at my level are doing some form of strength training whereas I just to go the wall and climb stuff twice a week.
I was just saying that surely you couldn't be a solid 7C climber and not have good technique? I'd imagine the *main* way you're going to improve your grade at this level (apart from sieging specific problems) is to get stronger in some capacity?
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Let's put it this way, I don't recall falling off of V10s because my technique was poor (though if they had been slabs then this would have been the case), it's always been because I'm weak.
Have you considered that you may have fallen off them because you're too weak to do them with poor technique?
I appreciate that you're messing around Duma but of course I've considered that.
The fact is that I'm always the weakest in the group I'm climbing in at my grade range, and usually still the weakest if I'm climbing with people climbing a few grades below me. I like to think that I must be doing something right to be the weakest in the group but still get up stuff (disclaimer: I've been weak AND shit lately).
I'm not complaining though, most people at my level are doing some form of strength training whereas I just to go the wall and climb stuff twice a week.
I was just saying that surely you couldn't be a solid 7C climber and not have good technique? I'd imagine the *main* way you're going to improve your grade at this level (apart from sieging specific problems) is to get stronger in some capacity?
As you say, I'm messing - I've climbed with you Ross, and know just how "weak for the grade" you are. I'd agree this is often a sign of good technique, but I do think that often people will misdiagnose the issue as being "not strong enough", when better technique, or better flexibility (I'm looking at you TT) could allow them to climb the moves in question at their current level of strength.
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I agree that you can't identify the subtle issues where people suck at technique much beyond V6ish (at least to my untrained eye). However, I have noticed that people who climb in the V13 and above range are capable of moving much differently. They tend to use their legs and hips much like us punters use our hands... There seems to be things people suck at, in a general sense, at every grade. E.g. the learn how to place your feet in the V5 and below, the learn how to try hard in the V7 range,... Of course these are massive generalizations.
Anyway, cha1n I am perhaps at the opposite end of the spectrum (the overly strong with shit technique). I am not saying I scratch and claw my way up stuff, but I have noticed that people less strong than me can float up stuff because of body position and better technique... I follow your advice to a tee. Can't do problem A, then go hangboard until you can. While I see many people who are much weaker do problem A by "climbing better." :boohoo:
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I was stuck around v6-7 for years, doing the odd v8, and desperately wanting to climb harder, but never managing. The problem was that I was only ever trying v6s, 7s and 8s, and easier stuff, and I was always doing them in the most efficient way I could (lank, body position, lots of heel/toe hooks/cams, loads of egyptians, sneaky sequences etc. etc.). Doing that made me really good at climbing those grades efficiently (like, flash every v6 and a lot of v7s) but I couldn't for the life of me do a single v8 power problem, or ever touch v9.
Some times, the best technique involves a lot of failure, some training, getting stronger and trying hard.
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Geez... Every paragraph in this topic makes le want to reply! Not to give away any particular truths but Just to exchange on a subject touching my job and passion, with a "safe" audience (my clients are out of your reach in case i say bs!)
Re Yoof.
Did you pursue technique as "mastery" of moves, at the time? As in, "owning" the move and do it with ballet-like fluency?
I think that's one of the things that can hold back intermediate and good climbers, as for them getting on something "meaningful" in terms of overall training value means giving a 100% effort on moves they do not master yet.
I once complained with an ex national coach about the fact that my hardest ascents are rarely a show of mastery and I perceive myself climbing "badly" when at my absolute limit.
He replied : Ghisino, what is your goal? Sending, or showing off? Either one is ok, but be clear with yourself!
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I would say so yeah, but I'm not sure "owning" is the word I'd choose, "cruising through" more like?
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Geez... Every paragraph in this topic makes le want to reply! Not to give away any particular truths but Just to exchange on a subject touching my job and passion, with a "safe" audience (my clients are out of your reach in case i say bs!)
Please do! I have zero access to anyone with more climbing experience in person, so I end up having to self learn anything and everything i can. so far it's generally worked, but I'd love to get feedback :)
Re Yoof.
Did you pursue technique as "mastery" of moves, at the time? As in, "owning" the move and do it with ballet-like fluency?
I think that's one of the things that can hold back intermediate and good climbers, as for them getting on something "meaningful" in terms of overall training value means giving a 100% effort on moves they do not master yet.
:agree:
I once complained with an ex national coach about the fact that my hardest ascents are rarely a show of mastery and I perceive myself climbing "badly" when at my absolute limit.
He replied : Ghisino, what is your goal? Sending, or showing off? Either one is ok, but be clear with yourself!
Interesting. When I'm at my absolute limit, the two have to go hand in hand. Most of my hardest sends (the ones that were truly at my limit) over the last 3 years have all required perfection of movement as well as 10% effort. It's been the ones just below that level where I often feel like I'm climbing badly, but still able to send.
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Perfection of movement and 10% effort, now you've got me interested!
I don't get as much satisfaction if I don't climb well, regardless of the difficulty. Let's not forget grading is arbitrary, vague and at best an average - a false god. Climbing well is satisfying whatever the grade.
I think drills and repetition are under-used in climbing.Bruce Lee quote: "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." Most of the stuff locally I didn't feel I did well I've had the opportunity to return to and try to improve on. My perception of difficulty is that if I can climb it badly, it's not hard.
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whoops 100% :)
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Perfection of movement and 10% effort, now you've got me interested!
I don't get as much satisfaction if I don't climb well, regardless of the difficulty. Let's not forget grading is arbitrary, vague and at best an average - a false god. Climbing well is satisfying whatever the grade.
I think drills and repetition are under-used in climbing.Bruce Lee quote: "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." Most of the stuff locally I didn't feel I did well I've had the opportunity to return to and try to improve on. My perception of difficulty is that if I can climb it badly, it's not hard.
Most of us use repetition of pretty much the same movement over and over and over when climbing, the problem is that for the most part it is the repetition of poorly executed moves between (relative ) buckets.
The warm up and if you do one, the warm down are perfect opportunities to concentrate on executing moves very fluidly and efficiently, but how many of us do that rather than just disengaging the brain completely, or thinking about what project we are going to try, or thinking how hungry we are, or about how much chalk we've inhaled, or how tasty cookies are, or some trip or other, or what we're going to have for dinner later.
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My perception of difficulty is that if I can climb it badly, it's not hard.
+1
I recovered from a foot slip in mid-crux of a redpoint at the hardest grade I have climbed so far. Thus I know I can climb harder.
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One of my favourite technique drills is as follows:
When a new set of problems are set at the wall (or equally, when I used to boulder at Dumbarton a lot) I would slowly build up a circuit of problems in ascending difficulty. The easier problems would be ones I flashed first time, building up to ones that took a few goes, then on to a couple that maybe took me a few sessions to nail but can now do first time.
After some basic traversing for a general warm up, I work though these problems trying to do them as efficiently as possible. Usually after 5 or 6 sessions this circuit becomes a really nice warm up where I really get those movement engrams wired. At Dumby I would always finish my warm up with Slap Happy (7A) and Mestizo Sit Start (7A+) which would give me a really good gauge as to the days friction and my strength.
For my first 5 years of climbing I was pretty strong, but with sloppy technique. I've barely got any stronger, in fact, I'm weaker than my lofty peak of Font7b :weakbench: but now I can usually get outdoor 7As in good time (Flash or a few goes, unless they're not my style) (remember, I'm not much of a boulderer). Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is my technique has come on loads over the years and I can now do so much more with less. Now I'd just like to get some power back and actually make a bit of progress for a change.
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I was stuck around v6-7 for years, doing the odd v8, and desperately wanting to climb harder, but never managing. The problem was that I was only ever trying v6s, 7s and 8s, and easier stuff, and I was always doing them in the most efficient way I could (lank, body position, lots of heel/toe hooks/cams, loads of egyptians, sneaky sequences etc. etc.). Doing that made me really good at climbing those grades efficiently (like, flash every v6 and a lot of v7s) but I couldn't for the life of me do a single v8 power problem, or ever touch v9.
Some times, the best technique involves a lot of failure, some training, getting stronger and trying hard.
Definitely hear you dude, I have grades that I expect to flash every time, but up the ante a little and I can't touch really powerful tension style stuff even a grade harder. There's alot to be said for trying problems where you can't even do one move. My bouldering has improved loads this year by trying to get 1 move further in to problems that are basically impossible for me. It's been a real eye opener
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Does anyone have tips for working 2 move wonders? Thinking of rest times etc.
I've got myself a project, and I seem to have 2 good attempts on it per session before I can't pull hard enough anymore...
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Does anyone have tips for working 2 move wonders? Thinking of rest times etc.
I've got myself a project, and I seem to have 2 good attempts on it per session before I can't pull hard enough anymore...
Purely Powerful: Clusters of roughly 5 attempts, 30 secs at least between each attempt, 2 to 10 min between each cluster.
Purely techy: 15 mins on, 10 off
Of course there is a spectrum in between the two...
Good visualization might save you a few tries. This would be more focused on being fully activated for the powerful case, and on move subtleties for the techy one.
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Does anyone have tips for working 2 move wonders? Thinking of rest times etc.
I've got myself a project, and I seem to have 2 good attempts on it per session before I can't pull hard enough anymore...
I am definitely slacking on this, but I always brush the holds, tell myself to try really hard, and get on and go for it... I try really hard to not rush or give it so so goes... I am finding there is a huge difference between trying and REALLY trying!
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Thanks- it's more towards the super-powerful end of the spectrum, guess I'll be trying really hard at short intervals (avoiding injury) :)