UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Fultonius on January 31, 2015, 07:35:32 pm
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I rarely do any structured training. I find it too...
sterile, erm. can't think of the word right now. Anyway, I quickly get bored and start doing problems. I love onsighting, especially routes. I probably have ADHD or something :slap:
So, I'd like some guidance on achieving my spring/summer goals. I want to finish off a local sport project of mine if I get the chance. It's a "soft" 8a. 10 metres to a good rest, then another 5m to the crux which goes straight into a tricky wall to finish with only awkward rests. Vid here: http://youtu.be/c2qvwxPelz8 (http://youtu.be/c2qvwxPelz8)
I also want to be really f*cking strong to crush any trad, alpine and bouldering projects that get in my way. I'm a jack of all trades and have no urge to focus on one thing.
At my disposal I have:
Beastmaker 2000 (which is practically an ornament)
Bouldering wall. (I currently go around 3 times a week, there's some set problems of various grades, an adjustable wall with loads of holds for circuits, campus board, steep cave and a gym)
The big outdoors (ice climbing, dry tooling, alpinism etc.)
I'd put my current level at: Bouldering: Font 7A quite quickly / sometime flash (outdoors) Rarely project stuff, probably max ~7B
Sport - Fr 7b second go, Fr7a+ onsight. Haven't projected in a while.
Trad E4, Solid E3
I'd like to up all of those i.e Fr7b onsight (routes) and tick off the Fr8a proj. Boulder ... hmm... harder? Maybe 7c? (Hardest I've ever bouldered was 7B, or 7B+ trav no, no, nothing... and some more alpine hard trad, E4/E5 2-300m+
I'd like some general advice on how to break up my training into rough "phases" between now and May. I.e. Should I start off with long, easy circuits, then progress to hard bouldering, then PE circuits. I'm talking macro planning, not micro - 2 weeks of this, 2 weeks of that.
If I go out and do a 200m WI5/6 icefall and get pumped out my tree, what does this count as?
You wisdom, please.
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I too find training really really dull. Routines I find very hard to keep, and I have the attention span of a...
sorry, was watching the tennis...
I'm presently rehabbing my back, so doing regular (2-3 times a day) exercises is important - and I find that hard to stick with!
Anyway, going outside is not a problem, I have motivation (mostly) for that - its structuring training...
Classic example is that beastmakering - which I can do with my bad back. I started doing a little (2-3 sets) every day... and was getting right into it. Feeling the burn, challenging myself, fuck yeah etc... NEARLY posted on here that I was getting to like training.. Then I missed a couple of days due to work stuff, got back on, and meh, felt hard, didnt like it... bah...
But - I try and trick myself into training...
1. I beastmaker when there is some football on the radio. Somehow that works for me.
2. I go to the wall at lunchtime when its cheap, I get a free coffee and there are not too many people there - so I can be shit and go home after 45 min and not feel bad..
That is a disjointed ramble... but maybe offers some pointers - or solace!
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The single best thing I did in January was to move my BM from the bedroom to outside the kitchen; a distance of about 5 metres. I can now BM while cooking or watching stuff on the laptop. Makes training much more palatable I find.
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move BM to the kitchen. Makes training much more palatable.
Tres spirituel.
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I don't have much problem with motivation for going down the wall, just not sure what general areas to work on.
I.e. 3 weeks of circuits, then some ... ? campussing? Power?
I just think if I had some guidaance of what I should be doing and when, then I'm more likely to get better value out my time than my current (and past) appraoch of:
Hmm, today I feel like onsighting all the new problems. Next day I feel like working on some harder ones and maybe potter on the campus board, then...oh, maybe I should do circuits.
Everyone talks about doing ARC and AeroCapPPOW and all these other things but I don't know so well how these things apply to ME!
For example, what would a 24 move circuit that I can finish and maybe do half another curcuit count as? (15 degree board, small feet, small to medium holds (mainly first joint, incut)
Or, a 40+ move circuit that takes 2.5 minutes?
Or, 8.5 minutes of continuous circuits?
Or, back to back problems that I have wired (V4/V5) with minimal rest?
These are all things I do, so if I could figure out a plan from this, I might get somewhere...
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Very roughly, and avoiding the terminology you don't like I'd go down the route of
Feb/March - lots of strengthy stuff and longer/easy/volume enduro stuff. Boulder, fingerboard, do blocks of 10-20min on the wall with a gentle pump but not about to fall off
April - keep doing some strengthy stuff, perhaps throw in some campusing, but do more circuits where you get either boxed out of your skull or powered out. For the harder powered out circuits have good rests and high quality attempts, for the 'boxed to fuck' circuits have short rests and thus make the circuits easier.
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I would add that during Feb/Mar I would aim to be bouldering or doing volume of easier stuff outside, during Apr/May then either boulder or try routes near your limit.
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Cheers Alex - dummed it down to my level nicely!
Would you do bouldering/strength stuff during the same session as the long, mild pump enduro circuits,or on alternating days/sessions?
I guess going out ice climbing will count nicely as enduro. :2thumbsup:
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Tell him about your metronome Alex
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Would you do bouldering/strength stuff during the same session as the long, mild pump enduro circuits,or on alternating days/sessions?
Depends a lot on your weekly routine and schedule, as well as what your body could take. If doing them in the same day then do the enduro work after the strength work, with as long a gap in between as possible. Let's say you climb outside on the weekend and train Tues, Weds, Thurs - you could train strength tues and weds with the enduro on the thurs, or train strength tues and thurs with an active rest day of light enduro on the Weds if your body can deal with it being active rest, or train strength every day with the enduro on the ends on the weds and thurs sessions..! Hard to know what will work best for you without knowing you though. Actually, hard to know anyway! Can always experiment with a few methods and see which one you prefer. Don't know if others on here have their own preferences for how to arrange their weeks?
I'm not sure quite what dense want me to tell you about what I do to him with my metronome, I thought he'd told me never to speak of it in public...
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The only outdoor climbing I get here is ice/alpine. :boohoo: I often do a mix of bouldering and circuits anyway, so I'll probably just stick to doing that. Come April I'll swap it up for some serious pump/power circuits. Cheers! :2thumbsup:
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Tell him about your metronome Alex
P.S. you two can keep your weird contraceptive methods to yourselves. :shag:
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Are you near Cham? There's bouldering circuits at the base of of the Bossons glacier. Think Yann Ghesquiers opened a fair few of them.
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Just boulder as hard as you can on the bouldering wall. Power is everything and it makes PE easier as well. Endurance is easy to get so dont worry about it.
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agreed w barrows as a super basic way of getting started with an idea. as well, though. When you're doing strength work, the important thing is intensity not volume. rest long enough to give 100% effort every time, and when you start to fade, end the workout. You won't gain much more by pushing for a longer strength workout, except to increase fatigue and have a longer recovery period.
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Are you near Cham? There's bouldering circuits at the base of of the Bossons glacier. Think Yann Ghesquiers opened a fair few of them.
In Cham, but it's buried until April. There are other places to go, but these days I'm more inclined to go skiing or ice climbing than fight with snowy, cold, mossy boulders.
Meddonet and plex in the spring though, I'll be there!
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agreed w barrows as a super basic way of getting started with an idea. as well, though. When you're doing strength work, the important thing is intensity not volume. rest long enough to give 100% effort every time, and when you start to fade, end the workout. You won't gain much more by pushing for a longer strength workout, except to increase fatigue and have a longer recovery period.
Interesting. I have a habit of not resting much between goes, even when bouldering "hard". I'll try and focus more on having good goes and resting more between goes.
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I think the two most common mistakes climbers are who try to gain strength do is:
1) Not resting enough.
2) Never trying really hard moves. When I ask people to set a two move boulder problem at their absolute limit in the gym, hard enough that it would take them at least 10-15 quality tries with 3 min rest between the goes to nail the individual moves, they almost invariable set something that they can either flash or do within 2-3 attempts.
I'm as guilty as everyone else. For 1) I usually need a stopwatch, I cannot pace myself any other way. For 2) I find it slightly easier to choose set problems (if they exist) above my redpoint limit, find the hardest moves and work them individually.
When you get closer in time to when you can get to your project, set circuits that physically simulate the part of the route that gives you problems.
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I think the two most common mistakes climbers are who try to gain strength do is:
1) Not resting enough.
2) Never trying really hard moves. When I ask people to set a two move boulder problem at their absolute limit in the gym, hard enough that it would take them at least 10-15 quality tries with 3 min rest between the goes to nail the individual moves, they almost invariable set something that they can either flash or do within 2-3 attempts.
I'm as guilty as everyone else. For 1) I usually need a stopwatch, I cannot pace myself any other way. For 2) I find it slightly easier to choose set problems (if they exist) above my redpoint limit, find the hardest moves and work them individually.
When you get closer in time to when you can get to your project, set circuits that physically simulate the part of the route that gives you problems.
Sounds just like me! I guess I like trying problems that I can see I'll manage reasonably quickly, but since this is training I should probably focus more on trying really damn hard! I remember seeing Malc just hanging moves when working a problem, ie.e if he couldn't quite make a move, he would just hold the holds statically for a few seconds.
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Setting is tricky, isn't it?
It's amazing what our body can learn in a few minutes! From not touching the hold, to linking moves, it's all very subtle.
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+1
One of my local walls has two boulder rooms: a new, modern, neon blob room and an old, dingy cave with some lightly overhanging panels with lots of little crimps and lots of little polished chips for feet. Proper old school, feels almost like rocking it 1980s brick edge style. The problems are all set with defined handholds and free use of chips for feet. It is therefore much, much better than neon blob style for learning how precise foot and body postioning can make holds holdable or not.
(Seems to also work as training for comp style neon blobs, 'cos Monika Retschy trains there)
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I think the two most common mistakes climbers are who try to gain strength do is:
1) Not resting enough.
2) Never trying really hard moves. When I ask people to set a two move boulder problem at their absolute limit in the gym, hard enough that it would take them at least 10-15 quality tries with 3 min rest between the goes to nail the individual moves, they almost invariable set something that they can either flash or do within 2-3 attempts.
I'm as guilty as everyone else. For 1) I usually need a stopwatch, I cannot pace myself any other way. For 2) I find it slightly easier to choose set problems (if they exist) above my redpoint limit, find the hardest moves and work them individually.
When you get closer in time to when you can get to your project, set circuits that physically simulate the part of the route that gives you problems.
:agree:
A huge eye opener for me was moving into developing. No one had graded anything so it was just an exploration to see what you could do. Anythig goes :)
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It can be tricky to accurately see the gap between what you can't touch now, what will come with dedication to the problem and what's beyond you.
Loads of rest between goes or it's pointless for pure power tho.
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I do now wonder if that's why I've always plateaued around 7B but my endurance has always been good - under-resting! (also not being a boulderer...)
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You describe a good regime for building power-stamina.
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Meddonet and plex in the spring though, I'll be there!
Have you bouldered at Plaine Joux? Never been, but looks like it could be good for circuits.
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Nope, haven't been there. I know there's a small easy crag there but hadn't realised there was any bouldering.
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I was sure I saw a topo with a dozen + probs online somewhere, but googling reveals nothing now.
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It's in those topos I sent you. :slap:
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Beastmaker Routine Advice
Since I am in a "strength" phase just now, if I do a beatsmaker session will I get more value out of doing max hangs (3-5 seconds, 2 mins rest, 4 or 5 reps) instead of doing repeaters?
I'm in the middle of a sessions right now (getting the keyboard all chalky). I started off with one round of repeaters ala the climbing works intermdiate plan: https://www.climbingworks.com/files/public/Training_Articles/beastmaker_fingerboard_article.pdf (https://www.climbingworks.com/files/public/Training_Articles/beastmaker_fingerboard_article.pdf)
And now I'm doing a round of max hangs (front 2 small pockets, monos, back 3 big edge, maybe some other stuff).
Is it best to stick to one thing (max hangs OR repeaters) or are repeaters a good way of worming up further for max hangs - i.e. after a through bouldering warmup?
Anyone else find it hard to chalk up in the 3 seconds?
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Since I am in a "strength" phase just now, if I do a beatsmaker session will I get more value out of doing max hangs (3-5 seconds, 2 mins rest, 4 or 5 reps) instead of doing repeaters?
I guess it will depend on the person and whether you've done much of either in the past. If you're just fingerboarding, I'd vote repeaters. If bouldering after, then maybe max hangs would be better. In general, I find repeaters more effective than max hangs if fingerboarding is my focus at the time - but I've never just done one or the other in any week (normally mainly repeater style, with max hangs at the end of the warm up or before bouldering).
Is it best to stick to one thing (max hangs OR repeaters) or are repeaters a good way of worming up further for max hangs - i.e. after a through bouldering warmup?
As above, my main focus will be one or the other. But I have done some max hangs before repeaters before. I think you should be fully warmed up in all grip types before starting the session proper, whether that be max hangs or repeaters.
And now I'm doing a round of max hangs (front 2 small pockets, monos, back 3 big edge, maybe some other stuff).
Fuckin' ell, sounds like you need to work on your back 3/2!!
And I can't chalk up in the 3 second period without either missing a couple seconds or jumping back on wildly. Some chalk on the trousers/shorts helps if you need to de-sweat.
Edit: forgot the title of the thread. Grab a bad hold when you feel like it and happen to be warmed up. Hang until you fail. Repeat a bit. Pick another bad hold. Repeat until bored. Then go bouldering and try something different/hard.
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And now I'm doing a round of max hangs (front 2 small pockets, monos, back 3 big edge, maybe some other stuff).
Fuckin' ell, sounds like you need to work on your back 3/2!!
Ha, actually after warming up a bit back 3 on the small edge (Hold 3) was pretty ok. My back 2 is awful though!
Edit: forgot the title of the thread. Grab a bad hold when you feel like it and happen to be warmed up. Hang until you fail. Repeat a bit. Pick another bad hold. Repeat until bored. Then go bouldering and try something different/hard.
I'm not "that" disorganised. It's more that I'm not the kind of person who will set out a 10 week programme, each session pre-planned etc. If I do start a fingerboard session though, I'm pretty focussed/structured.
Cheers!
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Fultonius,
One thing that has helped me whilst doing repeaters (advice I was given, not something I thought up) is to think of the 10 seconds as 1 rep. Those 10 seconds contain the effort and the rest. The end goal is to complete all the reps as 7 seconds effort, 3 seconds rest for all sets. However, the starting point can be 3 seconds effort 7 seconds rest, or 5 and 5, as long as the effort and rest add up to 10 and you then have something to work towards and to show progression.
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I was just thinking that I can go around 3 "reps" before needing a quick chalk, so if my fourth rep is 6secs / 4 rest I suppose it'll make the square root or fuck all difference in the grand scheme of things. I like to keep to the 10 second rep idea as it saves my brain having to function too hard working out when I should start and finish.
I used to count my seconds in my head, but now using my phone as a timer it's clear I was goin 1.2.3.4.5.6.7 1.....2.......3....... 1.2.3.4567......1.........2.........3........... etc.!
Keep to the clock. :chair:
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Check out this week's power club as we discussed this quite a bit in there.
Having checked through my training diaries I have discovered I was at my strongest during a fingerboard phase when doing max hangs on day 1 followed by repeaters the next days and came up with a plan that goes:
M - max hangs (15-20 hangs)
T - repeaters (6 grips x 2 sets each)
W - Aero
Th - rest (possibly something CV)
F - max hangs
S - repeaters
S - rest
Anyone (Sas?) care to critique this?
Maybe it was just coincidence I was so strong last time?
I've been fingerboarding periodically for about five years now so should be fairly adapted to it but is it too much hangtime?
Consecutive days too much?
The plan is just to perform it for 4 weeks then move onto power.
Think I've used up my quota of question marks now.
Thanks all
Happy to comment, alhtough I'm not a a pro coach either.
A few years ago I found a similar thing although not looking at repeater/max hangs. I found that I would do a FB max hang workout, then go boulder the next day and felt great/crushed it. I think it's due to the recruitment carryover, and I'm not convinced it's a good thing to be aware of for training, although it is good to be aware of it for performance. I've seen it in other sports where it is common the day before an event to do a short workout with really high intensity.
I've been fingerboarding periodically for about five years now so should be fairly adapted to it but is it too much hangtime?
Speaking as an old dad susceptible to injury, yes, I would be wary of hangboarding on successive days. But i don't see any harm mixing up max hangs and repeaters/ encores in the same session ... in fact personally I am very keen to see progress in both.
The main thing I have taken away from the "Rock Climbers Training Manual" book - which I realise may already be very obvious to many people - is the importance of intensity when you do train. I have definitely been guilty of "tick the box" training in the past. Now I do try to give 100% to sessions and so definitely wouldn't be able to train hangboard two days successively. Or if I did, the second day would be sub-par.
I fully agree that intensity is the key to seeing returns, and volume will likely be the limiter for doing 2 days in a row. I can't imagine doing a second FB workout the day after a hard repeater workout, but the day after max hangs I can definitely still pull really hard. That said, I think that may be a good workout structure overall, but pay really close attention to your gains. The two day easy/rest days in between should help you maintain recovery, but i'd worry a bit about the one day rest. Perhaps on the F, S combo reduce the volume of repeaters, or combine them into a single workout as Habrich mentioned.
I did Max hangs and repeaters this fall in a combo workout I really liked this fall. It was:
Warm-up
Progressive max hangs:
10 second 1/2 crimp at 75% total goal weight (body weight plus added weight), 3min rest
10 second 1/2 crimp at 85% total goal weight (body weight plus added weight), 3min rest
10 second 1/2 crimp at 95% total goal weight (body weight plus added weight), 3min rest
Max Hangs:
3-5 x 10 second 1/2 crimp at 100% total goal weight (body weight plus added weight), 3min rest
Rest 5 min
Repeaters
6 grips, 3 min rest in between
rest 7 min
6 grips, 3 min rest in between
This has fewer max hangs than what you're doing, but personally I found I couldn't maintain the intensity on Max hangs beyond 8-9 hangs across any number of grips.
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Fultonius,
One thing that has helped me whilst doing repeaters (advice I was given, not something I thought up) is to think of the 10 seconds as 1 rep. Those 10 seconds contain the effort and the rest. The end goal is to complete all the reps as 7 seconds effort, 3 seconds rest for all sets. However, the starting point can be 3 seconds effort 7 seconds rest, or 5 and 5, as long as the effort and rest add up to 10 and you then have something to work towards and to show progression.
Thats exactly what I do - as my sets get closer towards the end I tend to spend a little less time hanging on ~ but make a real effort to. If I need to chalk/uncurl my fingers I'll take a little longer than the 3 secs off to do so... don't see the point in hurting myself for a second or two..
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re chalking up, I use a chalk ball for the BM, mostly because it produces the least amount of excess dust in a part of the house used for living in. I keep it in a tupperware which is sealed etc to minimise spillage. But when performing repeaters I keep it open just in front of me so I can bend down just dab fingers on it and resume hanging ASAP. Saves the need for fumbling with a chalkbag which would take much longer than 3s.
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I was just thinking that I can go around 3 "reps" before needing a quick chalk, so if my fourth rep is 6secs / 4 rest I suppose it'll make the square root or fuck all difference in the grand scheme of things. I like to keep to the 10 second rep idea as it saves my brain having to function too hard working out when I should start and finish.
I used to count my seconds in my head, but now using my phone as a timer it's clear I was goin 1.2.3.4.5.6.7 1.....2.......3....... 1.2.3.4567......1.........2.........3........... etc.!
Keep to the clock. :chair:
It's amazing how the seconds at the end of a set are longer than the seconds at the start. This is a handy android app if you haven't seen it. Basic, but effective.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ch.arons.android.bm&hl=en
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If you can take your fingers off and chalk up in 3 seconds, you must be using different time zones to mine. I can barely re adjust my grip in 3 seconds.
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Agree that can be an issue, mostly dragging the low slots for me. I only ever do 4 reps max and rarely feel the need to rechalk before the final rep, if I overrun chalking I just overrun the hang by the same amount.
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Sounds like you need to keep the heating turned off in your fingerboard room and fit a small fan above it... A fan really minimises the need for chalk.
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S'pose I could just open the door and let the -5c chill come in, bu then it can get a bit too cold.
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A bit of a revelation today. I've just finished session at the monk bouldergym in Amsterdam (nice place, good vibe, good problems ).
Resting loads makes me strong!
Honestly, I think I have always under-rested between goes on problems. Today I had one, sometimes two goes on each problem with 3 to 5 minutes rest between (spent re-reading the white spider) and I felt waay more able to crush than normal.
I think my old ways were probably good for endurance but shit for getting strong.
It seemed like my "peak power" lasted for at least an hour and spanned over 5 or 6 problems rather than 10 minutes and 2 problems.
Cheers guys, good advice as always.
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A bit of a revelation today. I've just finished session at the monk bouldergym in Amsterdam (nice place, good vibe, good problems ).
Resting loads makes me strong!
Honestly, I think I have always under-rested between goes on problems. Today I had one, sometimes two goes on each problem with 3 to 5 minutes rest between (spent re-reading the white spider) and I felt waay more able to crush than normal.
I think my old ways were probably good for endurance but shit for getting strong.
It seemed like my "peak power" lasted for at least an hour and spanned over 5 or 6 problems rather than 10 minutes and 2 problems.
Cheers guys, good advice as always.
:beer2: Always good to learn new things. Think of the same application when training FB or campusing as well. The goal is almost always quality first, then quantity.
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Today I went down to the new bouldering area in Avertical World (Dundee) they had a moon board, which I've never used before. Decided to have a wee play and holy shit that highlights a big weakness of mine!
I found 6B+ pretty hard (took a bit of working out, then a few good hard goes to get it). Worked on a 7A and a 7B for a bit and got nowhere! I found it very hard to get any power though me feet and found the moves veeeery long!
When compared to the other "problems" at the wall, I was flashing the V4/V5 problems and getting the V5/V6 ones in a few goes. (they could be soft?)
I guess I need to work on 45.
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Moon board grades are all over the shop
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Indoor grades in general are bollocks, ignore them.
For anyone struggling to keep chalked up for repeaters or whatever, you could try some Megagrip/liquid chalk/Sid's Jizz type stuff as a base, should help a fair bit, and might cut down on your indoor dust.
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Moon board grades are all over the shop
:agree:
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I found 6B+ pretty hard
...
I was flashing the V4/V5 problems
It is folly to conflate grading systems as Jasper will tell you.
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Indoor grades in general are bollocks, ignore them.
For anyone struggling to keep chalked up for repeaters or whatever, you could try some Megagrip/liquid chalk/Sid's Jizz type stuff as a base, should help a fair bit, and might cut down on your indoor dust.
:-\ I would usually concur and know that there are better benchmarks, I was just hoping that a moon board might at least be a little bit more repeatable for benchmarking.
Anyway, I have, always, been shit on 45 boards - I'm much better on anything less steep and with changes in angle (and bigger holds.
Here's a question related to specificity - how does climbing on a 45 transfer over to less steep stuff? Most of my aims are in the vertical to 20 over range. Does it matter than I'm weak as a kitten on the steep stuff?
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Having played a fair bit on the moonboard over the last year, I'd say the problems are by and large very sandbagged. And also inconsistent across the grade range. There's an option on the website that allows one to "grade" the problem with what you yourself think, and this then shows next to the grade given by the "setter". In concept this should work great, but enough people actually have to give their personal grade. I think quite a few problems have been submitted by a few crazy strong folks, and a few who are known for sandbagging anyway.
Anyway, I have, always, been shit on 45 boards - I'm much better on anything less steep and with changes in angle (and bigger holds.
Here's a question related to specificity - how does climbing on a 45 transfer over to less steep stuff? Most of my aims are in the vertical to 20 over range. Does it matter than I'm weak as a kitten on the steep stuff?
Angle matters, but style probably matters more in this case. The moonboard is at the far end of dynamic/power climbing. no trickery or shenigans will help. I've got a friend who guides in Hueco and regularly boulders v11-v13 and couldn't do a single 7B on the moonboard.
So if your aims are poweful and dynamic, then there may be some use. If not, then your time would probably be better spent elsewhere.
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Moonboard grades are all over the place. When I've had the cance to use one, I've struggled on 7a, flashed 7c and done 7c+ in a few goes in the same session and with the same holds sets (yellow ones).
Plus, I personally know at least one guy who's brutally strong and with a penchant for undergrading everything on purpose, who submits lots of problems. Or used to.
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Moonboard grades are all over the place. When I've had the cance to use one, I've struggled on 7a, flashed 7c and done 7c+ in a few goes in the same session and with the same holds sets (yellow ones).
Plus, I personally know at least one guy who's brutally strong and with a penchant for undergrading everything on purpose, who submits lots of problems. Or used to.
I think I had the exact same session :)