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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: El Mocho on April 06, 2020, 09:01:14 pm

Title: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: El Mocho on April 06, 2020, 09:01:14 pm
Since lockdown started I've tried fingerboarding twice. I think I'm kinda doing the right stuff but not really sure, and to be honest figure seeing I've never done stuff like this before whatever I do (barring getting injured) should do me good.

At the moment I am using 2 edges I've screwed to my board. They are a about 16/17mm but rounded off on the edge. I screwed on 2 smaller ones but I can't hang on them.

The first session I had a go at one arm hangs but couldn't do it so I then did assisted ones pinching a rope at waist height with the other hand (just between index and thumb). I was doing repeaters, I hope correctly. With the one arm hangs did 6 on each arm, hanging for 7s, 3sec off 2 mins rest between arms but then stopped that (in a half crimp/drag)

I then did more repeaters (I think a few sets but can't remember) but this time 2 arms but in nearly full crimp (this is how I am weakest)

Then had a quick play in reducing fingers - back 3 felt pretty much as good as all 4 so didn't bother with that but did do a set on front 2 which felt much harder (think only did one set of these)

Today I thought I would try some more max hang type things. The only weight I could find was a bag of cement (25kg?)

I did the half crimp thing again. Hung for 10 sec and then 50 sec off and repeated 5 times for a set. 5 mins rest and repeated the set 2 more times. I thought it was pretty heavy when I tried walking about but hanging wasn't too bad although I don't know if I could of hung on for 20 sec or not, maybe should have tried to find max time first?

I then stopped even though I didn't feel tired or really that powered out (I felt pretty tired/powered out when doing the last couple of reps but after a couple of min off felt good)

Couple of things:

Finger grip types. At the moment I am snuggling in with my thumb on the edge of the wood when dragging and having thumb over index when crimping, I guess on a beastmaker this wouldn't be possible? This would make it harder but is it an issue to do it? Is there an issue with full crimping or should I be half crimping/dragging?

Is there any advantage over doing 1 arm hangs vs hangs with weight? If you are doing max hangs surely max with 1 or two arms will still be max?

Seeing the most convenient weight I have is the cement bag (I do have 2 but 50kg seems too much) is my 'max hang' work out any good/what could I do differently.

Any other suggestions appreciated.

I'm off to watch tv with my wife now so thanks in advance for any advice that comes in and if people did get excited and reply with any questions etc then I'll have a look in the morning...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 06, 2020, 09:09:37 pm
What did you watch? :D
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 06, 2020, 09:14:36 pm
I'm def no expert on this but a couple of things I noticed reading that:

Using your thumb makes it easier, and if you're running out of weight may be worth avoiding?

Full crimp is generally considered BAD due to injury risk, not sure how supported by actual SCIENCE this is - but apparently (also not sure how much SCIENCE) half crimp is good for improving full crimp strength with less injury risk.

Re Max hangs, +25kg doesn't sound loads for a man of your pedigree, but maybe it's all cunning and trickery... (for ref i'm shit compared to you and do them +25kg too).  I'd try and use water bottles or something to find your max 7sec hang (mines 30 - 35 depending on season etc), then do a bit less than this - lattice (crimpd app) do 10s for duration but dunno if it matters much. 50s between hangs doesn't sound like much if you're really doing max, think I do 2min but that's prob just cos that's what crimpd gives me.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: carlisle slapper on April 06, 2020, 09:16:25 pm
A good session would be to do:

6 hangs on one arm, but alternate on each hang, so 3 on each side.

Do a session of Half crimp (all fingers bent except pinky) and Drags (you're shit on those innit)

do 6 seconds on and 4 off. 2mins 30 rest in between hang types

Do
Half crimp
Drag
Half crimp
Drag
Half crimp
Drag

big rest.

Same again.

Thats pretty good fodder for bog standard improving.

You've probably got a piss weak pinky because you havent used it your whole life but it hasnt held you back much, if you do feel like making it do some work, Aidan can lift 20kg with his in a half crimp on a sling (just the one pinky) so Think of the Gainzz if you built that in? marble wall could be yours pulling on the nanos. build that in after your first set with targetted hangs and drop the second set.
Fill up some water in a rucksack for weight, you only weight about 3 peas and a cabbage anyway dont you? and surely you have some of that spangly DMM revolving fodder for a pulley? Use weights and a pulley as its quantifiable, pinching ropes is still all witchcraft and feelings.

one arm deadhangs are much better than two with weight IMO, i'd use the analogy that i've hit a shitload of holds with one arm above my head and struggled to hold on but not boshed many double dynos out with a weight belt on, so it really helps the body learn to dangle off one limb above the head on crap holds (useful), two armed heavy weighted hangs have many flaws IMO and adding lots of weight when you haven't fingerboarded much is definitely gambling, worth doing for the odd benchmark to figure out your max and work backwards but silly day in day out.
don't deploy the thumb too much when training as it stresses the index joint too much, fine in the up to 60% effort zone but again definitely gambling above that long term.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: yetix on April 06, 2020, 09:26:28 pm
Removed on rereading
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: carlisle slapper on April 06, 2020, 09:27:44 pm
Forgot to add, if you cant do a hang/grip type on one arm at 20% body weight or less taken off then use a bigger hold or just do two arms with a bit of weight on until you can. As the point of one arm hangs only really gets going around that percentage, as with pulley friction and the fact your other arm is pulling on a jug the gains will be muddied above that ratio more and more.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Fultonius on April 06, 2020, 09:56:49 pm
Wait a fuckin minute here. Have you not like flashed 8A? But don't know how to fingerboard. impressed and dismayed in equal portions.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Yossarian on April 06, 2020, 10:00:21 pm
If so, this is the kind of information I love - like people who have climbed 8B / 8c / flashed 8A, etc who can’t do 147...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: El Mocho on April 07, 2020, 08:52:57 am
What did you watch? :D

Unorthodox on Netflix. Pretty good.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: El Mocho on April 07, 2020, 09:59:33 am
Thanks everyone.

Dan, sorry this will show my lack of understanding of fingerhanging as I have some questions/stuff to clarify...

So the session is all done as one arm stuff (with assistance in my case, I imagine for basic half crimp/drag I'll need less than 20% body weight taken off but I'll have to find out my body weight first)

I go alternate arms each hang and do repeaters (6 sec on 4 off) and during the 'off' swap to the other arm. Do a total of 6 (3 each arm) in half crimp then have 2 min 30 off then repeat but in drag... then repeat etc to do each grip 3 times and then have a big rest.

How close to max hang should I go if doing the repeater stuff? I can rig a revolver and weight to assist.

Ned has got me a beastmaker (not sure which one and not sure when I'll get it - it was in the boot of his car just prior to lockdown...)

If I want to make my pinky super strong I'd do repeaters hanging from that (would def be both hands) or back 2? and I imagine even with 2 hands I'd need assistance.

If so, this is the kind of information I love - like people who have climbed 8B / 8c / flashed 8A, etc who can’t do 147...

I went campusing with Dave Mason one time a few years back and he said I was quite impressive, I don't think he was being sarcastic either.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: carlisle slapper on April 07, 2020, 12:11:03 pm
I go alternate arms each hang and do repeaters (6 sec on 4 off) and during the 'off' swap to the other arm. Do a total of 6 (3 each arm) in half crimp then have 2 min 30 off then repeat but in drag... then repeat etc to do each grip 3 times and then have a big rest.

Yep spot on.

How close to max hang should I go if doing the repeater stuff? I can rig a revolver and weight to assist.

70% ish of your max effort. you might want two rucksacks if your drag is wildly different from your crimp to save a huge faff of swapping things over. make sure your form is good so index must be bent on half crimp and for a true drag you want index and ring straight and middle with a slight bend.

I'd do 3-4weeks of this and then do some max hang sessions if you're still stuck inside after that, 1-2 weeks of max hangs after 3-4weeks of repeaters to sharpen up a foundation of dangling.

If I want to make my pinky super strong I'd do repeaters hanging from that (would def be both hands) or back 2? and I imagine even with 2 hands I'd need assistance.

pick stuff up off the floor in a repeater style to just target the pinky, load about 7kg into a rucksack and just pick it up by its top loop but crimp it on the pad just as a mono. work up from there. alternatively do back two etc on the fingerboard and build a hanging routine that is less specific but helps other fingers and muscles too.

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jstrongman on April 07, 2020, 01:07:57 pm
Thanks for all the advice Dan. I feel I am in the grey area of now adding too much weight for 2 arms but finding it hard to transition to one arm. I wondered how much success you or other have had with doing the one arm repeaters isometrically (with feet on the floor), rather than using a pulley which is to take off weight?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Murph on April 07, 2020, 02:11:59 pm
Chaps, this has been absolutely brilliant.

As a rank punter in the climbing game seeing this exchange over the last day between two proper good climbers - it's like finding a premiership footballer asking the forum how you do keepie uppies because they never bothered to learn until now. Particularly value the bit about why one is better than two. If only one wasnt so flipping hard. And the reminder to train HC instead of dragging everything.

Thanks for brightening up this corner of lockdown and giving some ideas on what to do with the time. Nice one.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Will Hunt on April 07, 2020, 03:51:33 pm
I'm sure that Bransby just comes on here when he wants to take the piss out of us. It stinks of the hustle.
"Oh hey, guys. I've hit this plateau where I can only climb 8B. So weak! lol! What's fingerboarding all about? Can it make me strong? Oh yeah, and what's a split tip that you guys are always going on about? So random lol"
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Doylo on April 07, 2020, 04:00:52 pm
Some of the weakest fingers I’ve ever seen Bransby. That’s why he has to hold tiny holds with a weird drag while everyone else has to bone them to fuck.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 07, 2020, 05:21:25 pm
I'm sure that Bransby just comes on here when he wants to take the piss out of us. It stinks of the hustle.
"Oh hey, guys. I've hit this plateau where I can only climb 8B. So weak! lol! What's fingerboarding all about? Can it make me strong? Oh yeah, and what's a split tip that you guys are always going on about? So random lol"

I did wonder if Dan had borrowed his login.. :) Hence my question about the film...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: carlisle slapper on April 07, 2020, 06:41:01 pm
I wondered how much success you or other have had with doing the one arm repeaters isometrically (with feet on the floor), rather than using a pulley which is to take off weight?

What size edge are you on with 2 arms and how much weight? and what size edge with what grip do you want to jump onto one arm with?

I wouldnt bother with feet on the floor or on a scale unless thats the only option. too much room for error again and general hard work to maintain an effort level. Some of which depends on how many distractions you have whilst training of course but the less fluff you can have the better results you'll see in general.

I would try going down the hold sizes from a jug until you reach the 20% weight mark and work back from there, its likely an arm or shoulder weakness thats causing a big discrepency anyhow if you're doing well with lots of weight on on 2 arms. Normal good form rules apply, shoulder engaged on straight arm etc, might also be good to build in some scap and lat pulls with two arms to target potential weak areas (in the absence of a bod poking you in a test)

Some of the weakest fingers I’ve ever seen Bransby. That’s why he has to hold tiny holds with a weird drag while everyone else has to bone them to fuck.
Yeah like the non hold on Lanny that no one else can use. Any advice on how to be an utter bastard Ben and raise your level 4 grades whenever you fancy? i mean i've played a few blinders in font like doing kheops second go in front of some poor polish Wad and wondering off but i feel i've got more to learn in the UK and my consistency is poor for winding up the gears instantly, i reckon i need to work on the initial wind up more, you seem good at letting people like Caff talk things up enough to set the bait, really let him analyse just how good an effort he put in and conclude that actually you're gonna get shut down, them BAM, warm up flash, boots back on. I guess thats the stuff you cant teach!

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jstrongman on April 07, 2020, 08:17:05 pm

What size edge are you on with 2 arms and how much weight? and what size edge with what grip do you want to jump onto one arm with?
I am currently doing max hangs on the 15mm BM2K + 48kg (body weight ~90kg), I can hang the 45's and sloping 2 finger pockets front 2 for 5 sec, but cannot hang the sloper 35 for more than 5 sec 1 arm or hang the bottom rung at all. Target would be to 1 arm hang a 20mm edge half crimp and open.
 
I think you are probably right it is probably more the shoulder stability, although on the bottom BM rung it still feels like the fingers are opening and just not stable. My issue with pulley is that I cannot find a easy way to fit it without the mount being in the way of either the door or if mounted near the board it gets in the way of the lower rungs.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 07, 2020, 09:08:19 pm
Jesus fucking Christ! +48kg on that edge   :strongbench:

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 07, 2020, 09:18:34 pm
think you should switch to one arm hangs for the sake of your doorframe jstrongman!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 07, 2020, 09:38:03 pm
Instead of a pulley - I’ve got a hook screwed into the bottom of the BM (pointing downwards) and on that I’ve a snap gate - on which I have 5 therabands tied. The other end of the therabands is tied to a foot loop. Using a portable luggage scales (the ones you hang your suitcase off at the airport) that gives me 15kg of assist (c.3 per band). I’m using this at the moment to work in being able to hold the larger slot one handed with a bent arm and engaged shoulder (and to work stopping the twist). My aim is to over the weeks reduce the assist  - then reduce the handhold size etc.. etc.. etc..

Not sure if this is a good way of doing things (I’m a punter at training) but it’s working quite well so far.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 07, 2020, 09:44:00 pm
What hook have you got tt? And does it seem up to the job? Like jstrongman I'm struggling to get a nice set up for the pulley.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 07, 2020, 09:46:39 pm
What hook have you got tt? And does it seem up to the job? Like jstrongman I'm struggling to get a nice set up for the pulley.

Its just a crappy picture hook! But it handles 15-20 kg OK. Think I might have had 20+ kg in it when using a pulley for assisted one armrest. Worst that can happen is that it bends out of shape and buy a beefier one!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 07, 2020, 09:53:13 pm
pretty sure we don't mean the same thing by picture hook:

not this I'm guessing - https://www.screwfix.com/p/picture-hooks-twin-brassed-100-pack/17238

got a link to something similar?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Fultonius on April 07, 2020, 11:20:42 pm
I just drilled a 6mm hole through the door jamb, into the frame and used a big hex head coach screw to attach an old padeye type thing that I had lying around. It's taken full bodyweight without so much as a creak:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/POiJ_vQLNWWKJwQaIrsi1AeFbnhZDohHfE9QbnWx3j9HwhU5kWmbcEMGbVgLZpwQ2-jmL6csLZx8CuHjQtTmhgDZENZzUOL9_lYaEzyGtnbVxlpuuQyJ434fQvZX5spxRSns4ZGzRFIIt7cFeB3c_skrC2yC_b86rnOzgq82sQxeY7MMdFciCh3EnamoIp47jYUQTSEFd7rqhOte66CWXkNWVnTxhN_FdFk5OLMZCEEnHub3DkhTot8EH859r7UWuxGgm5e9Z7I3Rw0jO_JRm6UI_pOYdXHnkwfTszqzSGsw7xf_ezi51kUkaAp3plKnKTAKcLpSwd8SPs9S8pHeQoaCTcIg_sBZG7ylRVsdYUKCZmD1TUMvwHi1RTMYxMrDTowZjRArPWh0FIm7WH13_PqWlmFhPHK2We_cllRpv9Pv0FUIi47uM-0sYKKOXfK9KbUNQ1xE9Bg0kTVfSPQtR_QMvjy3i0OztFtbCjWN9Uj4tXwpgKIHzhZ9W8KMhGEy_WIa4XZDZHy0wnE3yF_kIzRyFegDc4-nzrCnY2QWpgp5a41NocwgbL6wq9jFW8JY6lhN5Otwq_xBkUMMKUSOpGIwBkKvd2hQIfDfExZKkZcX6hROH7awbAOTvEnDyml9vAc4FAEk8g4Dd7WEJ3_0whLcc4SEFa8nfYy-InTUP-6pnvHhd7QPpum0GJtA=w678-h903-no)
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 08, 2020, 08:15:21 am
Soz for being vague - I meant something like this

https://images.app.goo.gl/rJjCgrn2cpQxno3n6

Had em in the old screws jam jar etc..
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: carlisle slapper on April 08, 2020, 09:44:55 am
I am currently doing max hangs on the 15mm BM2K + 48kg (body weight ~90kg). Target would be to 1 arm hang a 20mm edge half crimp and open.
 
I think you are probably right it is probably more the shoulder stability, although on the bottom BM rung it still feels like the fingers are opening and just not stable. My issue with pulley is that I cannot find a easy way to fit it without the mount being in the way of either the door or if mounted near the board it gets in the way of the lower rungs.


Good kilogrammage! Ok so normally you'd be looking to transfer at 60-70kg added as thats 70%ish. If you imagine each arm is taking equal load, then at the moment each arm is only holding 69KG and you would want to be closer to 75-80kg to hop onto a pulley +one arm more easily (its not quite as simple as this and i'd get a proper coaches look if you really want some detail). However at your weight you are pushing high numbers so i'd take more precautions and go slower (build upto it over 6 months), for 50-60kg waifs to one arm hang is a doddle but at 90kg each finger is taking some serious load. I'd try and work out where the failure is coming from in your hand, (does the pinky fail first or the index as a rule?) and check that all your fingers are pulling healthy percentages of your BW. You aren't far off really, especially as you'll be jumping from 15mm upto 25mm on the BM2000 if you go onto the middle slot. I'd say spend that bit of extra time coming up with a good pulley set up. If you can drop your fingerboard backing panel down below the top of the doorway on each side (keeping the board where it is) and cut out a square for a bit of 1" by 2" wood, or a cirlcle for a strong pole etc (or whatever will do the job thats strong enough). wedge that in between both holes either side of the door so it projects out behind from the board for about 50-60cm in the center and hang your pulley off that. Pulleys which are inline with fingerboards will always cause frustration if they're in a doorway. Considering nearly all of us are stuck at home its a great time to tinker with a set up that is as frustration free as possible.

Im 74kg atm the mo (dad bod) and can add 15kg for a half crimp one arm 1 rep max on the 20mm edge but thats a PB, however on a drag i can add 28kg for 103kg on a 20mm edge (bm 2000 small 3 finger slot) so your weight isn't so heavy that its going to be impossible to achieve. but it'll be a fight for sure. On the plus side i'd imagine that when you see the words morpho in the 7+8's font guide your eyes light up!

There are a few other >90kg big guys worldwide who can do this but you'll be in an elite club. I've popped in a few links of people i know of instastalk who can one arm deadhang as a big fella.
https://www.instagram.com/camz_grip/
https://www.instagram.com/bercht3.0/
https://www.instagram.com/tannermerkle/?hl=en

Focus on the fingers still, check shoulder stability anyway and add in bigger hold one arm hangs and prep a good pulley set up ready for the jump onto 1 arm.

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Murph on April 08, 2020, 10:45:52 am
Dan thanks so much for putting this up. It's really helpful and appreciated. I'm sort of struggling to understand the description of the pulley system though. Is there a picture you (or someone else) could point to a picture of a doorway pulley system. Probably should just set one up myself in the garage but want to understand what's being described here as it's a better place to train. Thanks also for the pointers about focusing on the fingers. Im personally guilty of dragging on a fingerboard just because I can get bigger numbers but know if I spent some time on HC it would probably find that of benefit on rock. So thanks for that as well.

If you can drop your fingerboard backing panel down below the top of the doorway on each side (keep rock ing the board where it is) and cut out a square for a bit of 1" by 2" wood, or a cirlcle for a strong pole etc (or whatever will do the job thats strong enough). wedge that in between both holes either side of the door so it projects out behind from the board for about 50-60cm in the center and hang your pulley off that. Pulleys which are inline with fingerboards will always cause frustration if they're in a doorway.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jstrongman on April 08, 2020, 11:58:49 am
Thanks Dan, that makes a lot of sense and some good psyche in those links.

I think I will spend some time thinking (talking to the Mr’s) about the pulley, however might have to move operations to the shed. Adding 60kg+ seems pretty frightening for everyone, fingers, shoulders, doorframe, children and the dog!! If one hand slips, the load on the other is going to be grim.
I did while struggling to sleep last night, wonder about routering a track on the back of the board to fit a 60cm sling between board and wall/mounting and use that to hang a pulley system off or is that going to be too close, I imagine in an ideal would it would be set 10-20cm back? Thanks again and need to get on it, cannot let the family name down!!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: SA Chris on April 08, 2020, 12:02:08 pm
Is that really your surname, i though it was made up user name! If so you come a close second to Mike Tyson, formerly of this parish.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Doylo on April 08, 2020, 12:19:42 pm
Dan, what do you rank as more important - board or hangs? If you could only do one.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jstrongman on April 08, 2020, 12:27:10 pm
Is that really your surname, i though it was made up user name! If so you come a close second to Mike Tyson, formerly of this parish.

ha yeah, it is real..
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 08, 2020, 12:43:28 pm
Dan, what do you rank as more important - board or hangs? If you could only do one.

Is this for expert testimony to take to the planning hearing with Mrs Doylo? 😃
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Doylo on April 08, 2020, 12:56:01 pm
Dan, what do you rank as more important - board or hangs? If you could only do one.

Is this for expert testimony to take to the planning hearing with Mrs Doylo? 😃

I’ve got everything but struggle fit in both (along with outside climbing especially ).  :shrug:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: El Mocho on April 08, 2020, 04:14:00 pm
Had a go at it all today...

Worked out my max 1 arm hang - in half crimp in needed 8kg assistance and in 3 finger drag about 10kg (for 10 sec hang). I weigh 64.3kg. I worked out to get to the 70% max I would have to take off a shed loads of weight so sacked that off and decided to just try it all with 12.8kg taken off (the rucksack and a few bottles of water). This seemed to work. Did the one arm session Dan suggested. 1/2 crimp felt pretty steady throughout, although left hand felt sig. weaker than right. 3 finger drag felt both harder and less comfy on the hold I was using (although by the last sets I wasn't bothering to change the weight in the rucksack up from the 12kg I was using for half crimp). I also found my free arm ie the arm pulling on the other end of the rucksack pulley was getting pretty powered out, I guess the issue of having to have so much weight in the rucksack...

By the end of the second time through the sets (so after doing it all once then having a 15+ min rest) I was feeling a bit worked but 10 mins later felt fine. I considered having a board session but decided to be sensible. Are you supposed to finish and feel worked or still feel ok?

Had a very quick play at hanging back 2 (2 handed) and needed a touch more than the 12kg assistance (clipped to harness and through pulley) and it also felt horrible. Had a go at lifting up the rucksack with my pinky (I think with the original 12kg in) which I did a few times and felt kinda ok although kinda not. I'm also not sure how good my pinky form was - I tried to keep in half crimp but the strap was creeping past the first joint which made it easier/possible.

Felt like with so much weight in the rucksack, and as Dan said, there was a lot of friction through the pulley and you are essentially pulling on a jug with the other hand - with the length of rope etc my hand was about waist height but it felt like the rucksack was barely leaving the ground.

Guess I'll stick with this as I'm def not keen to do 2 handed hangs with much more than the 25kg I had last time.

I also tried hanging 1 armed off a massive jug a realised this was still fucking desperate (if keeping shoulders engaged etc) and I could only just do that for 10 sec.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 08, 2020, 04:42:30 pm
Ben, instead of holding the rope just tie a loop and stand in it. Or clip to a harness. Makes it harder as less stabilising from the free hand
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: JJP on April 08, 2020, 04:43:37 pm
Great thread and interesting getting so much detail, especially benefits of assisted 1 arm vs weighted 2 arm. I fingerboard periodically and have been using a sort of theraband thing for assistance to the other hand but might try set up a pulley.

I have always found anything other than chisel, half crimp and to an extent 3 finger drag really tweaky/ horrible feeling.  Will try using the weights and sling to work on pinky and ring fingers. 
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Camo on April 08, 2020, 05:01:13 pm
Great thread and very useful as I am a bit of fingerboard punter. Have always done 2 arm hangs with weight and do max hangs some times but also do repeater sessions too. The advice about one arm hangs makes a lot of sense so I will try easing myself into that without taking the piss out of my shoulders. I think I should be able to use some stuff I’ve already got lying about to rig a pulley too so that’ll keep me busy for a while.  Got plenty of time to get used to it!!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 08, 2020, 05:30:57 pm
Great thread and interesting getting so much detail, especially benefits of assisted 1 arm vs weighted 2 arm. I fingerboard periodically and have been using a sort of theraband thing for assistance to the other hand but might try set up a pulley.

I have always found anything other than chisel, half crimp and to an extent 3 finger drag really tweaky/ horrible feeling.  Will try using the weights and sling to work on pinky and ring fingers.

I’ve got therabands with a foot loop - prefer it to a pulley.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jstrongman on April 09, 2020, 12:36:10 pm

... Ok so normally you'd be looking to transfer at 60-70kg added as thats 70%ish. If you imagine each arm is taking equal load, then at the moment each arm is only holding 69KG and you would want to be closer to 75-80kg to hop onto a pulley +one arm more easily

Dan your calculations where pretty close, so with the pulley setup I needed to use 14kg assistance to hang the 15mm edge (BM2K) RH and 16kg for LH this was for controlled 7 second hangs. The crazy thing is the I still need 12kg to hold the bottom middle rung, my grip is just so weak and hurts the skin on the incut, failing form the pinky. Think I might just focus on the 15mm  half crimped and 20mm 3 finger pocket open.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: carlisle slapper on April 09, 2020, 04:47:41 pm
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49753547251_248dc82d0d_z.jpg)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/beastmaker/49753547251/in/photostream/
I've popped some pics on Flickr of my own pulley rig, but the same principle applies to a door as a box on a beam. make a hole in one side the size of the pulley pole/wood extension and wedge it in using the other side or the top of the beam/doorway. Obviously watch your levers/ moment calcs as you dont want to put a 3m pulley extension on and writhe off an entire doorway but 50-60cm is fairly safe.

Hope that helps.

I'll try and answer some more of the stuff/Q's in depth a bit later.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: carlisle slapper on April 10, 2020, 11:17:08 am
Dan, what do you rank as more important - board or hangs? If you could only do one.

Few words in that but a big question!
I reckon the answer depends on where you are in life and how time poor you are, what the goals are, access to rock etc. For me board climbing is far more enjoyable, i've had some great sessions on boards over the years with mates, fingerboarding is just a bit too stale to really enjoy. However if you take a span of 20-30years, house and career moves etc Fingerboarding is just far more transportable and maintainable. It allows measurable progress to be made, the only question being is how well does that translate over to the goals?. Weirdly i'd argue board climbing actually has less translation for many rock types as its just so rare in the UK to find climbs of that steep style, people are nearly always busting quite big moves on boards and smashing around squeezing things. Literally the only fat pinch i've ever established in the UK on a steep problem in the 8's where its quite a hard move is on the beast of succoth in Scotland and the crux on that is off the mono stack anyway. Dave mac's Natural method has one but the kneebar section is the crux (scotland has all the big steep boulders). My point being there's a big gap between style/ enjoyment of that movement on a board and what you'll typically get outdoors. In lockdown right now we're loving having a board in the house but i've been both fingerboarding and board climbing mostly based on my mood and how frazzled i am.
Personally i'd always go for a good steep board just for the enjoyment of it if i could only have one, i think the mental benefits from a good session on one outweigh the negatives and fun is far more important at the end of the day. Im sure anyone with a home board is counting themselves as bloody lucky right now for that very reason.

I have always found anything other than chisel, half crimp and to an extent 3 finger drag really tweaky/ horrible feeling.  Will try using the weights and sling to work on pinky and ring fingers. 

You've likely got flexor carpi sheath and lumbricals which will need gently coaxed into loosening up and pulling in directions they're not used to. the classic example of this is when people drop a pinky and get palm pain. The best way to turn the corner is by picking light weights up off the floor at about 3/10 tweakiness in those positions. (this is all very vague due to being short answers sorry but hopefully it helps)



Are you supposed to finish and feel worked or still feel ok?

I also tried hanging 1 armed off a massive jug a realised this was still fucking desperate (if keeping shoulders engaged etc) and I could only just do that for 10 sec.
,

Yeah i'd say thats a great result. you should probably feel like you can still go for a jog or do a bunch of easy routes etc. but dont. What you can do is work the core and shoulders on the floor or stretch etc. Seems pretty good if you can get through starting with that kind of weight off, i reckon you should dip under -10kg fairly quickly. in fact knowing you this is all some sort of bransb-hustle...

You could also make yourself a session up for one day in the week where you just focus on hanging on huge edges one armed with good form in different locks. As well as 2 armed scap pulls, lat pulls etc (google em) and mix that up with picking some stuff up off the floor (pinches or 1 finger stuff with light weights) That'd help break up the week if you've got limited stuff at home, i wouldn't do the session you did more than twice a week unless you're really stuck for ideas.

The best training results are always about minimising cross over (training the same muscle groups over and over) and using what energy you have in the best way possible to get the message across to your body. you could run a marathon after your FB session and there would be no crossover but you'd shag your energy reserves and confuse the message to your body about just what it needs to improve on.

One more thing i'd add is i quite like training with -2.5kg off regardless if i can hang an edge without as it really helps stop rotation just tippling the handle and if failure creeps in you can start to load it to complete the hang, for me it just sneaks better results than tapping hard surfaces to stop any sneaky rotation when trying close to max.






Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 10, 2020, 12:15:38 pm
Dan, or anyone

What is the normal distribution of strength in each digit?

Was thinking of benchmarking each digit (presumably by weights on a sling as mentioned above) to see if there is a particularly weak digit.

Is there an old thread on this?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 10, 2020, 12:31:20 pm
Dan, or anyone

What is the normal distribution of strength in each digit?

Was thinking of benchmarking each digit (presumably by weights on a sling as mentioned above) to see if there is a particularly weak digit.

Is there an old thread on this?

The only data I've seen on this is a (very weak) paper by Köstermeyer in a German Sportscience Journal. I'll see if I find it tonight after my classes finish
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 10, 2020, 12:35:12 pm
Thanks jwi
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Doylo on April 10, 2020, 12:36:01 pm
Cheers  :thumbsup: Board has done more for me than any hangs. Plus more enjoyable like you say and although maybe not as pure finger strength training you get power and core mixed in with it.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 10, 2020, 12:46:13 pm
The enjoyment of a board makes it much more likely to be effective surely? Thought Dan's point about thumbs is interesting - we're all very hot on no thumbs when fingerboarding, and I've often been told to avoid using the thumb on the corners of edges when on a board to maximise training value, but everyone loves a pinch on a board, or to pick weights up, despite the fact that the former is very useful loads of the time outdoors, and hard pinching is pretty rare.

I've started doing moves on my fingerboard and through the doorway to the lattice rung on the other side - this is way more fun than just hanging, and feels like it's working a much wider range of things - despite probably being less efficient for pure finger strength gains.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 10, 2020, 01:08:43 pm
Internet been reading my mind again - this popped up on my FB feed

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CcQrq7BzH8g&fbclid=IwAR0QNNGzmaNHhiGrJcRVp9s3_YuWiQw4iguf5_uI4I7uVB9nP-jOhW1OFBE
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: remus on April 10, 2020, 01:52:47 pm
Dan, or anyone

What is the normal distribution of strength in each digit?

Was thinking of benchmarking each digit (presumably by weights on a sling as mentioned above) to see if there is a particularly weak digit.

Is there an old thread on this?

One of the guys at Lattice is doing his dissertation project on this at the moment. I think he's writing up at the moment, I'll try and remember to post it on here when he's finished.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 10, 2020, 01:58:04 pm
One of the guys at Lattice is doing his dissertation project on this at the moment. I think he's writing up at the moment, I'll try and remember to post it on here when he's finished.

 :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Nibile on April 10, 2020, 03:29:25 pm
At the risk of being pedant, I'd like to politely clarify that there is no such thing as "lockdown fingerboarding".
There's only "fingerboarding".
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Muenchener on April 10, 2020, 03:43:19 pm
What is the normal distribution of strength in each digit?

I actually tested this recently, so here's an N=1 dataset for you: 14-16-12-10 kgs, using first pad on a sling.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 10, 2020, 05:09:02 pm
A question for Dan (or anyone else!)

I had a lockdown fingerboard going well - 3-4 sessions a week (odd days) alternating (sessions) between two weaknesses of mine that were the back two and one arm hangs. I've now managed to build a board (steep) and am wondering how to mix up the board/fingerboard sessions. E.G if separate sessions (warm up on fingerboard then go on woody - or just fingerboard) how should I alternate between fingerboard and woody days? Or - is it OK to combine both in a session e.g. session on my one arm stuff and woody?? How to mix it up - or not between the two....
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 10, 2020, 05:18:21 pm
Double sessions but with a 4+ hour gap if keen.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: JJP on April 10, 2020, 05:39:23 pm
I have always found anything other than chisel, half crimp and to an extent 3 finger drag really tweaky/ horrible feeling.  Will try using the weights and sling to work on pinky and ring fingers. 

You've likely got flexor carpi sheath and lumbricals which will need gently coaxed into loosening up and pulling in directions they're not used to. the classic example of this is when people drop a pinky and get palm pain. The best way to turn the corner is by picking light weights up off the floor at about 3/10 tweakiness in those positions. (this is all very vague due to being short answers sorry but hopefully it helps)

Thank you.  Ye I think you are right, especially the flexor carpi - when I drop pinky pain tends to be in distal forearm, what I imagine is the muscle-tendon junction.  Used to love 3 finger drag but this had bothered me on and off for years now.  Back 2 or 3 has always just felt bit off.  Will definitely give the weights a consistent effort.

I`ve not quite managed the "quote function" correctly there!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: sdm on April 10, 2020, 05:51:31 pm
I've now managed to build a board (steep) and am wondering how to mix up the board/fingerboard sessions.
I've settled on a 3 day on, 1 day off routine as follows:

Day 1:
Morning - 1 arm max hangs
Rest an hour, then max pinch block
Evening - Limit board session

Day 2:
Morning - Board power session
Evening - Limit board session

Day 3:
Morning - Ancap board session
Evening - Fingerboard aerocap

Day 4:
Rest

Day 5:
Morning - One arm max hangs
Rest an hour, then max pinch block

Day 6:
Morning - Limit board session
Evening - ancap board session

Day 7:
Morning - Limit board season
Evening - Aeropow board session

Day 8:
Rest

This feels like about the right amount of rest for me and I currently seem to be making progress in all areas and am uninjured (touch wood).

My sessions are shorter than if I was only doing one per day. I'm planning on doing about 4 weeks of this, then taking 1 lighter week.

I live alone and am working from home so I can schedule sessions whenever I want.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 10, 2020, 06:39:40 pm
Thanks SDM and Shark. I am 50 (with family at home) so am aware of my own age related recovery issues (it takes time) and It’s hard to schedule in more than 3-4 sessions a week...

Today I did a mix of one arm work and going on the board - though the limiting thing on the board was my skin/tips crying out in pain after about 30 min (that will change).

If I mix a session is it a bad idea to mix (for eg) crimpy problems with a fingers day - or alternatively big moves with a pull up/one arm day.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Sasquatch on April 10, 2020, 07:27:03 pm
What is the normal distribution of strength in each digit?

I actually tested this recently, so here's an N=1 dataset for you: 14-16-12-10 kgs, using first pad on a sling.
I recently have been testing and working on mine as I have a left middle finger a4 issue.  This is using the 25mm Tension block mono. 
So N=2 dataset:
Left: 30-30-41-27 (the middle finger is injured)
right: 30-45-30-27 (I fully ruptured the right ring finger a2 and a3 ages ago and never had it repaired.  The tendon now sits on the inside edge of the finger instead of in the middle.)
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 10, 2020, 07:41:19 pm
Dan - whilst you're here... You got a strong view on "mastering" a weight vs incrementally increasing it slightly session to session. Thinking mostly about repeater sessions where if I complete all hangs on a grip I normally up the weight slightly for the next session.


People doing individual finger scores - can you actually try to max on anything other than middle finger mono? I'm way too tweaky to go anywhere near max on ring, index or pinky. I'm 90% sure I'd break before I failed...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 10, 2020, 08:23:26 pm
People doing individual finger scores - can you actually try to max on anything other than middle finger mono? I'm way too tweaky to go anywhere near max on ring, index or pinky. I'm 90% sure I'd break before I failed...

I have absurdly thick fingers, so yeah I can redline on all fingers except the index.

And I am sometimes forced to use pinky monos even at my modest level of climbing since the pinky is the only finger that fits.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Muenchener on April 10, 2020, 10:35:41 pm
People doing individual finger scores - can you actually try to max on anything other than middle finger mono?

Good question. I felt I was pretty confident pulling hard with index as well as middle. Index probably the finger with the most independent voluntary control, from general dexterity / Doing Stuff.

Interesting that my ring is weaker than index, yet my middle 2 is stronger than front 2 (normal for most people I think) - and I suspect you're right there, the failure mechanism on ring finger is mostly fear.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Will Hunt on April 10, 2020, 11:51:03 pm
Just going back to first principles here. The exercise that Dan describes at the start of the thread is a repeater, no? Not a max hang (that would be hangs that you can just about manage for 7 seconds with lots of rest in between)?
I thought that repeaters were for getting fit and max hangs were for getting strong - is this not right?

When hanging one armed, should we be facing forwards or to the side?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 11, 2020, 07:30:44 am
Time under tension for a repeater is usually around 40 seconds, so similar to an average length boulder problem, and as such a long way away from a ‘fitness’ exercise.

Cast off any ideas about there being two types of fingerboarding that do two different things and view the varieties of protocols on a spectrum of strength and strength endurance with variation in intensity and time under tension. 
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 11, 2020, 07:43:28 am

When hanging one armed, should we be facing forwards or to the side?

Good Q. With my body under the hand (facing to side) its much easier (shoulder engaged and bent arm). Which suggests it probably should be facing forwards. We’ll see.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Will Hunt on April 11, 2020, 08:50:53 am
Sorry, when I say "fitter" what I really mean is power endurance. But getting better power endurance doesn't actually make you stronger? For me personally, better power endurance would be nice to have but I think it's more important to try and actually get some power to endure first.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 11, 2020, 09:02:17 am
Repeater style fingerboarding will improve your maximum finger strength (not power) and is probably a better place to start if you haven’t done much previously.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Will Hunt on April 11, 2020, 09:08:03 am
Ah yes, sorry, was mixing up strength and power again. Good to know that repeaters are fine for absolute finger strength. Thanks.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Fultonius on April 11, 2020, 09:08:38 am
Repeaters are often said to be a better place to start, but, does no one else find them much more challenging to maintain good form? Personally, I think it might be wise to to 6secs on, 4 off and only do 5 reps per set.

With 7:3 x5 I find I'm sloppy by the end and it always feels risky.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 11, 2020, 10:05:04 am
When I’m doing repeaters near my limit (as I am with one arm stuff) I go for 5 on 5 off. (-8kgs). Interestingly I twist off instead of dropping off - shoulder rotation needs work.

Now with -15 kg I can hold for 10 secs with no rotation or drop - two weeks ago it was like above with 15kg.

Having had my first board session yesterday (first ‘climb’ in nearly a month - only lasted 30 min too!!) my fingers felt battered this morning!!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Bradders on April 11, 2020, 10:09:41 am
Repeaters are often said to be a better place to start, but, does no one else find them much more challenging to maintain good form? Personally, I think it might be wise to to 6secs on, 4 off and only do 5 reps per set.

With 7:3 x5 I find I'm sloppy by the end and it always feels risky.

I started doing 5 on 5 off and did that for ages. Definitely felt like a gentler intro to it.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 11, 2020, 10:25:10 am
I do 5 second rest rather than 3. Allows you to chalk up between reps as required.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: HarryBD on April 11, 2020, 10:58:25 am
Repeaters are often said to be a better place to start, but, does no one else find them much more challenging to maintain good form? Personally, I think it might be wise to to 6secs on, 4 off and only do 5 reps per set.

With 7:3 x5 I find I'm sloppy by the end and it always feels risky.

Glad others are finding it tricky. As a beginner to it I wasn’t sure whether I could justify extending the rest but reckon it would definitely allow better quality time under tension. My FB is suspended off a pull-up bar so need a second to get off safely without pinging off and a second to get my fingers back on right afte a little shake. Feels pretty panicked towards the end of a set.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Fultonius on April 11, 2020, 11:44:19 am
I've been doing 1 session a week @ -40% for aero, and even this light load, 3 secs is not enough for a mini shake and chalk.

Might bring back some heavier repeaters with a more forgiving hang:rest ratio. Crimpd app is good if you want to follow predefined timings, but what's everyone fav timer for custom stuff?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Nibile on April 11, 2020, 11:53:46 am
repeaters near my limit
:-\
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: sdm on April 11, 2020, 12:38:24 pm
Crimpd app is good if you want to follow predefined timings, but what's everyone fav timer for custom stuff?

I use mirror timer basic for basic sets and for aeropow sets where rest equals the work time from the previous set. Someone on here made it (Nik I think?)

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.keeg.freetimer (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.keeg.freetimer)

For more complex timing, I use Impetus. Also free, has plenty of options but the UI is a bit rubbish and it has an annoying habit of wiping your custom timers after major updates. There's probably better options than Impetus but I haven't got around to finding one.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fi.ohra.impetus (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fi.ohra.impetus)
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 11, 2020, 01:36:46 pm
As a beginner to it I wasn’t sure whether I could justify extending the rest but reckon it would definitely allow better quality time under tension. My FB is suspended off a pull-up bar so need a second to get off safely without pinging off and a second to get my fingers back on right afte a little shake. Feels pretty panicked towards the end of a set.

I find standing on the floor and bearing down hard one handed is a good way to train and in your case it might be more practical too.

Also FWIW IMVHO repeaters seems like an ineffective and muddled thinking way of training fingers.  :worms:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 11, 2020, 01:40:55 pm
Conversely, I think a well structured repeaters session such as the Anderson hangs session is the best way of training fingers
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 11, 2020, 02:15:00 pm
You win
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 11, 2020, 02:37:38 pm
What's everyone fav timer for custom stuff?

On android i use a free one called interval timer. Very simply but has a nice colour scheme and counts you in and out of each rep with beeps. Allows you to save and name workouts snd has unobtrusive ads.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 11, 2020, 02:37:52 pm
Yeah on this particular subject I think my money is behind Carlisle rather than Shark  :lol:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Coops_13 on April 11, 2020, 02:45:35 pm
What's everyone fav timer for custom stuff?
On android i use a free one called interval timer. Very simply but has a nice colour scheme and counts you in and out of each rep with beeps. Allows you to save and name workouts snd has unobtrusive ads.
why not the BM app? You can create and save custom workouts which seem to work for me
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 11, 2020, 02:49:22 pm
repeaters near my limit
:-\

🙇‍♂️ I shall say some hail Mary’s and make a sacrifice in penance to the fingerboard gods/idols.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 11, 2020, 02:50:13 pm
Re timers - I use the interval timer in my Fitbit.. nice gentle vibrate when it’s time to move or rest - I also use this on the board (well did at walls - not done so on my one yet...)
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 11, 2020, 03:01:23 pm
I just use a metronome app
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 11, 2020, 03:05:48 pm
Yeah on this particular subject I think my money is behind Carlisle rather than Shark  :lol:

Ok I’ll bite. What do you think it’s training and why do you think it’s useful?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 11, 2020, 03:40:19 pm
why not the BM app? You can create and save custom workouts which seem to work for me

Mostly because i bought it on an old iphone and am too tight to buy it on android too!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 11, 2020, 04:01:41 pm
What do you think it’s training

Finger strength.

and why do you think it’s useful?

It makes my fingers stronger.


I’ve read a fair amount about fingerboarding and I don’t think I’ve come across anyone who doesn’t recommend repeaters as part of programs, except perhaps that one Lopez paper (don’t think I ever read that).

I’m not a sports scientist but I would hazard a guess that the positive effects lie in some motor units tiring during the set so that other motor units have to fire. As an exercise it also seems more likely to cause the micro damage that you need to grow more muscle and increase the density of what’s there, whereas max hangs largely seem to rely on the more nerve based actions of getting all the units present to fire at the same time.

It also has the benefit of specificity, more closely representing bouldering than just a max hang (unless you’re trying Malc’s I guess).

Lastly they present a variation in loading from ‘just’ doing max hangs, and all training needs to include a large amount of variation, otherwise whatever part of the body that’s being worked will become lazy and stop adapting.

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 11, 2020, 04:27:29 pm
Max hangs gains continue beyond a few weeks so the gains must be more than just neurophysical. As for the other aspects why not just do a longer duration (density) hang to failure instead? I know the mimicking climbing argument but it seems to me that you get the intermittent stimulus when climbing whereas fingerboarding is the best opportunity to concentrate on raw strength (which also provides endurance gains whereas the reverse approach less so).
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Davo on April 11, 2020, 04:51:23 pm
It would be interesting to hear from someone with a sports science background here. Personally I think along the same lines as Shark here from the perspective that it is a great tool for working pure finger strength. Am not really certain that I have ever felt personally that repeaters feel like they are working strength. Maybe others feel differently??
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: HarryBD on April 11, 2020, 04:53:08 pm

I find standing on the floor and bearing down hard one handed is a good way to train and in your case it might be more practical too.


Good thinking, will give that a try this evening. My impression was that repeaters and density hangs would be a good way of ‘easing in’ to FBing and adds resilience. Am sure consistent stimulus way more important for my finger strength level (weak!) than specific protocols.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 11, 2020, 04:57:26 pm
So do you think everyone out there recommending repeaters (Varian, Andersons, Bechtel, Maisch, Lettuce, Horst(?) etc., etc.) is wrong Shark?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Davo on April 11, 2020, 05:06:30 pm
I think HarryBD ‘ s thoughts on them being a good way of getting into finger boarding seems reasonable.

Teestub my worries about repeaters being used for strength is that they lack specificity to what you are trying to train i.e. pure ability to hang off an edge for a set amount of time (say 10 seconds) which I think seems a reasonable way of considering what your maximal finger strength is.

Like I said I would welcome a clear explanation of why they might train actual finger strength

Dave
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 11, 2020, 05:11:35 pm

I find standing on the floor and bearing down hard one handed is a good way to train and in your case it might be more practical too.


Good thinking, will give that a try this evening. My impression was that repeaters and density hangs would be a good way of ‘easing in’ to FBing and adds resilience. Am sure consistent stimulus way more important for my finger strength level (weak!) than specific protocols.

The thing is they are training different things. The beauty of the bearing down as hard as you can whilst standing on the floor is that the limiter is the same whatever your level up to the point of being able one arm hang that edge in which case I’ll happily nail your feet to the floor.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Bradders on April 11, 2020, 05:13:29 pm
Surely a varied training programme should just include both progressed over time? I'm not sure one is better than the other, they both have their place.

Shark you seem keen on density hangs lately and I'm totally with you in thinking they might be of real benefit, but if you think about it a set of repeaters (especially with very short rests) is essentially an extra long density hang no?

Totally anecdotal and lacking any sort of SCIENCE but in terms of repeaters working strength, when I fail on them it's always the same feeling as when I fail a 1rep max hang. As in, I'm in no way pumped, fairly fresh, I just cannot hang on anymore.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 11, 2020, 05:13:41 pm
So do you think everyone out there recommending repeaters (Varian, Andersons, Bechtel, Maisch, Lettuce, Horst(?) etc., etc.) is wrong Shark?

Let’s just say I’m not convinced
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: reeve on April 11, 2020, 05:22:20 pm
Further anecdote to add to the repeaters discussion: I've just finished my fourth repeaters session since lockdown, which I have been alternating with a long hangs session (i.e. 30 sec hangs x 3 per grip). I have worked on 3 grips each session, very similar total TUT between the two sessions, although different grips in them. I have seen good gains in the long hangs (given it's only been three weeks of doing them) but stalled on the Anderson repeaters. Lots of other variables which confound a firm conclusion being drawn obviously (and its n=1). But yeah, it's the third time I've tried Anderson hangs because I want to be like Barrows and the third time I've been disappointed  :wall:


*Actually, to be clear, I'm doing a variation on Anderson hangs: 5, 4, then 3 reps per set rather than 7, 6, 5; I had hoped that this would slide it along the scale towards the strength end rather than the AnCap / power endurance end of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 11, 2020, 05:28:51 pm
I’ve found (again N=1 obvs) that when I move into repeater style hangs from max I need a few sessions at sub max before I can start increasing the intensity, otherwise I just seem to hit a brick wall and can’t add any more weight or complete more sets.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 11, 2020, 05:41:33 pm
Repeaters can train almost whatever you want them to train, you just build the session differently... The ones Dan mentioned above are v maximal (6 on 14 off a few times), others are aero cap. The only thing they aren't is pure 1-mover strength, but I really don't think that's the best way to spend most of your training time anyway. I'd hazard a bet that most good weightlifters aren't spending the vast majority of their training time doing a 1rep max and then resting 5 minutes, doing it again and then going home.

Obvs if your climbing training is all long boulders and you do hangs once per week then you might have good reason to be doing max work. If you're in the same position but the climbing is all falling off 1 move then for sure your hangs should be something like repeaters. If, like me, you're doing hangs 4 days per week in lockdown then prob do something like 2 sessions of each, or some max work then repeaters after.

Personally if you said I could only do one style from now on I'd do repeaters, based around an Anderson's session. Why? Because I feel like I've had the best gains from them. Also others have had good gains from them (e.g. Stu, Siegrist) It's basically a giant ancap session on a fingerboard. What does ancap get me good at?  Med/long boulders. What are the hard parts of most routes? Med/long boulders. If you prefer the weights analogy then view them as your hypertrophy sets etc.

P.s. Davo - you're not actually training to hang off an edge, you're training BY hanging off and edge to be good at rock climbing. What you can hang for 10s might be a good test of max finger strength, but the test is not the only thing you do to improve at the test. 200m runners don't just run 200m races, they do other shit too

P.p.s like teestub says, starting too easy on repeaters and working up over the sessions seems to work better than diving in at your pb.

P.p.p.s. Reeve - I can see why you'd be disappointed in yourself for wanting to be like me ;) I've had good gains from long duration hangs in the past toow, I don't think there's anything magical about repeaters vs long hangs
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: reeve on April 11, 2020, 06:01:27 pm
I’ve found (again N=1 obvs) that when I move into repeater style hangs from max I need a few sessions at sub max before I can start increasing the intensity, otherwise I just seem to hit a brick wall and can’t add any more weight or complete more sets.

P.p.s like teestub says, starting too easy on repeaters and working up over the sessions seems to work better than diving in at your pb.

Okay, thanks both. Does that mean you're feeling solid and consolidated at a certain load before trying to increase it? If that's the case, I'll persist with but maybe reduce the load by 1-2 kgs for a week to consolidate before trying to increase it.

Personally if you said I could only do one style from now on I'd do repeaters, based around an Anderson's session. Why? Because I feel like I've had the best gains from them. Also others have had good gains from them (e.g. Stu, Siegrist) It's basically a giant ancap session on a fingerboard. What does ancap get me good at?  Med/long boulders. What are the hard parts of most routes? Med/long boulders. If you prefer the weights analogy then view them as your hypertrophy sets etc.

Do you do your Anderson repeaters at 7, 6, and then 5 reps in each set? I'm asking because this has always made me feel pumped (i.e. more like AeroPow than AeroCap).

Quote
P.p.p.s. Reeve - I can see why you'd be disappointed in yourself for wanting to be like me ;) I've had good gains from long duration hangs in the past toow, I don't think there's anything magical about repeaters vs long hangs
To be quite frank, it's been devastating ;D
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 11, 2020, 06:30:47 pm
Yeah exactly, for me I’m probably at around 80% of what would cause failure in one or two sets working up to being able to reliably do 5 sets of a given grip before adding weight.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: HarryBD on April 11, 2020, 06:31:01 pm
Thanks for the advice people. Shark I just tried the one arm with feet FIRMLY planted on the floor and found it way more stable (no wobbling) and found I could actually pull hard in a drag without shiteing myself that I’d ping off one hand. Think this way is way more compatible with my FB setup than trying to actually hang so cheers for the beta  :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Davo on April 11, 2020, 06:54:37 pm


P.s. Davo - you're not actually training to hang off an edge, you're training BY hanging off and edge to be good at rock climbing. What you can hang for 10s might be a good test of max finger strength, but the test is not the only thing you do to improve at the test. 200m runners don't just run 200m races, they do other shit too

Thanks for the response. I think sometimes the internet is a great way to constantly misinterpret what someone says.

Basically I agree with most of what you have said and I thought it went without saying that we are training for climbing by hanging off an edge rather than training to hang off an edge. I completely agree that if you only have access to a finger board (rather than an actual board as well) then it would be madness to just do maximal hangs, I also agree that sprinters and weight lifters do lots of other types of lifting and sprinting rather than just maximal lifting or sprinting.

However my feeling here is that they do this to allow their body structures such as ligaments, tendons, muscles etc to adapt and become more resilient and able to tolerate more training etc Just doing maximal work clearly would not allow anyone to adapt to their sport well.

In terms of climbing I personally have a board and do quite a varied bit of training as I think that just doing maximal hangs or maximal bouldering would likely lead to a plateau and most likely injury and also just not be very good for actually being able to climb more than 3 moves in a row.

However, in terms of actually increasing finger strength (rather than just enabling your body to slowly make adaptations to structures such as your ligaments, allowing you to tolerate more training and also do more moves in a row) I am sceptical of the ability of standard 7secs on and 3 off repeaters to increase actual maximal finger strength. These seem very unlikely to increase your actual maximal strength. However more maximal style repeaters as you describe I agree would work.

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: reeve on April 11, 2020, 07:21:00 pm
Yeah exactly, for me I’m probably at around 80% of what would cause failure in one or two sets working up to being able to reliably do 5 sets of a given grip before adding weight.

Thanks again for the reply. And whilst we're here, how many grips would you typically do? I'm wondering if I'm generally not doing enough volume of them, particularly as it sounds like you increase the difficulty by increasing the volume, whereas I'm trying it by increasing the intensity.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 11, 2020, 07:27:20 pm
Reeve - I'm undecided about whether it's best to master a weight or not, but I normally start a cycle by deliberately undercooking the weights, giving myself a bit of a "run up" at my pbs rather than trying to go straight back to them. Not sure why, but this seems to have worked best for me.. I'm doing 7-6-5 hangs at the mo, I've tried 6-5 in the past to make it more stengthy, but I think I actually do better and make more gains with the longer version. Do 4-6 grips usually, depending on where it sits in my week and what else I'm doing etc.

Davo - adaptations to structures like ligaments and tendons are a big part of what we want surely! And muscles are likely to respond well to longer stimulus too - hence why you might do 8 reps of bicep curls not just 1, even if your goal is to do 1 rep max and you don't care about injury. Which isn't actually our real goal on most boulders anyway. If you're doing long stuff on the board I wouldn't worry too much though.

Science - I doubt it has the answers. Last time I looked (quite a few years back now) I couldn't find a decent conclusion in the literature for optimum length of time for isometric contractions for strength gains. The results were v scattered and conflicting. I think I've seen stuff about tendons adapting above 70% MVC but can't remember where. I'm not sure if people understand adaptations well enough to know what the best stimulus is (be interested to know if others know better on this? The bfr experts (not climbers) seemed slightly unsure in some podcasts about whether it was load only or metabolic too) but if it's mechanical load I would expect I can produce more load in a session @ 85% than 99% due to higher volume. Plus getting the metabolic benefits for long boulders/cruxes. I imagine the science behind adaptions for increasing strength via repeaters includes some mechanical load (like lifting v heavy weights) and some metabolic (like bfr)
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 11, 2020, 08:01:21 pm
Thanks again for the reply. And whilst we're here, how many grips would you typically do? I'm wondering if I'm generally not doing enough volume of them, particularly as it sounds like you increase the difficulty by increasing the volume, whereas I'm trying it by increasing the intensity.

I generally do a relatively short session, at the moment only doing half crimp and pinch, 4-6 sets of each dependant on how I’m feeling. Once I feel like I’m in the repeater groove (maybe 4th session) I’ll usually drop the sets back down and increase the intensity.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: carlisle slapper on April 11, 2020, 08:57:19 pm
 :popcorn:

 :great: barrows :great: stubbs

I've got opinions a plenty on all this but it'll take a while to write it down long enough to be accurate but short enough not to be boring AF. Basically, look at what, Shaw, Licis, Hafthor do and copy their loading cycles and styles but eat alot less and dodge the anabolics (unless you're russian) You'll hardly ever see them lifting to max. The road to 501 for Hafthor isnt just him swanning down the gym and trying to rag 481 off the floor, having a rest for a bit trying it again a few times, calling it good and doing that till the numbers go up. Also the advice for beginner, intermediate and experienced climbers should all be different. Theres barely a bloody normal edge on hard boulders above 8A in this country and 20mm is a massive jug if its flat, Where as at the 7B+-7C area those type of edges are much more common in and around crux moves (A reason why places like the bowderstone ladderface excels at making 7B-8A climbs) Different elemants of hand and wrist strength become more important as you move up the grades and training should reflect that, bent pinky crimp strength is likely to be a minor factor until you get into the 8A+ area (as climbers will likely have bigger flaws stopping them progressing) Im not a scientist (actually i do have a dusty BSC) Shark so i dont have a study into individual finger strength distribution but it is surprisingly variable. i can tell you some general anecdotal trends...The middle finger is always the strongest. Older climbers tend to have a stronger index due to >outdoor climbing and crap back two. The younger generations tend to develop stonger back 2 as indoor holds all bias towards pinky down compression and pinchable holds (which bias the back two) Climbers with a stronger trad/sport background tend to favour crimps and rarely drag. younger climbers drag more by instinct

Dont underestimate how important the wrist and carpal tunnel are either in fingerboarding (anyone whose ever had problems with it will know how weak it can make you) If you spread your crimps wider than shoulder width you'll always bias the index if they're flat. One arm hangs tend to target the pinky as unless you're in the top 1% in the world its gonna be straight on that edge and therefore able to take alot more load (even on 6mm edges this technique is possible), however it doesnt translate nearly aswell as a bent pinky as you cant bloody move anywhere off a straight pinky without it bending, same goes for chisel grip. unless you're compressing at full span.

Be aware of training power to compensate for mental weakness and wanting to overpower cruxes, you can often make much better progress by looking at other areas of your climbing (particularly antagonists, sequeance detail and mental approach), however in the current situation this is far harder to do for most!

Will hang in front of the bloody board, unless you have the ability to ghost your body inside the rock when you're climbing.(the exception here being if all your projects had you failing on cruxes busting out to a lip) Specifics are key, otherwise we may as well all go butterfly swimming and arm wrestling to improve.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Will Hunt on April 11, 2020, 10:51:00 pm
Yes, Sensei  :bow:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 11, 2020, 10:53:59 pm
The efficacy of repeaters still makes no sensei to me
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Coops_13 on April 12, 2020, 06:33:28 am
why not the BM app? You can create and save custom workouts which seem to work for me

Mostly because i bought it on an old iphone and am too tight to buy it on android too!
is it not free?!?

Edit: seems not, bugger. Don’t remember paying for it...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: remus on April 12, 2020, 07:44:37 am
The efficacy of repeaters still makes no sensei to me

In the end understanding how or why something works is secondary to if it works. My suspicion is that, for most people, consistently doing a reasonable volume (3-5 sessions per week) of high-ish intensity (80-90% of max) fingerboarding is more important than the details of the protocol.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Liamhutch89 on April 12, 2020, 09:21:52 am
I'm training for planche (gymnastic move) and from what I've read, current thinking seems to be that splitting your strength training between isometrics and dynamic movement (with a concentric and eccentric phase) is superior than isometrics alone despite the reduced specificity.

I see no reason why the same wouldn't hold true for strengthening the forearm flexor and therefore ability to hang a decent edge if programmed appropriately (whatever relevance this has to climbing, as has been discussed above). I'm going to experiment with finger curls using a 20mm 'no hang' type edge attached to weights and see what results I get. 1 rep = drag to crimp and back to drag. It seems a no brainer that this will at least be superior for hypertrophy, and whether it has any benefit to climbing will have to be seen. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 12, 2020, 09:36:05 am
Yes, Sensei  :bow:

Kiss arse / swot 😃

Thanks for taking the time to listen to our questions Dan - and more so - sorry the next 5 pages will be people deconstructing and re-interpreting them 😂

Apart from Shark who as usual will ignore all advice 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️😃
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 12, 2020, 10:19:11 am
Liam - the tricky things with the "turn to crimp" approach is that it can be very tweaky anywhere near max, so if you're at all prone to injury you can't go hard on it. I think it's likely to work best with BFR (blood flow restriction) if you have the kit for that, as it allows you to stay below the danger threshold

Simon - you might not understand it, but I explained two plausible reasons, and like Remus said, you don't need to understand it for it to work
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Stu Littlefair on April 12, 2020, 11:36:42 am
Imagine how weak we’d all be if you did!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Paul B on April 12, 2020, 12:06:37 pm
So do you think everyone out there recommending repeaters (Varian, Andersons, Bechtel, Maisch, Lettuce, Horst(?) etc., etc.) is wrong Shark?

Maisch made some fairly poor assertions (trainingbeta.com interview) based on Eva Lopez's papers. He then doubled down on them when challenged, even when the author confirmed the assertions were unfounded.

I found this incredibly disconcerting at the time (~2015).
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 12, 2020, 12:17:23 pm
The efficacy of repeaters still makes no sensei to me

In the end understanding how or why something works is secondary to if it works.

Not challenging that it ‘works’ but that it doesn’t work better than alternatives.

Quote
My suspicion is that, for most people, consistently doing a reasonable volume (3-5 sessions per week) of high-ish intensity (80-90% of max) fingerboarding is more important than the details of the protocol.

My suspicion is that less sessions a (no more than day on day off) max intensity hangs (different protocols available) produces better strength gains.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 12, 2020, 12:44:21 pm
Liam - the tricky things with the "turn to crimp" approach is that it can be very tweaky anywhere near max, so if you're at all prone to injury you can't go hard on it.

Second hand advice from Volker Schaffer was that this was to be avoided altogether as the repetitive see-saw action of the tendon under load will wear away the lateral binding stuff (usually called tendon as well - don’t know proper name) that holds the tendon in place
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 12, 2020, 01:34:04 pm

Maisch made some fairly poor assertions (trainingbeta.com interview) based on Eva Lopez's papers. He then doubled down on them when challenged, even when the author confirmed the assertions were unfounded.

I found this incredibly disconcerting at the time (~2015).

Assertions based on his experience and results training people or solely based of that small study which seems to have got so many people stuck on a specific protocol? Big difference between the two I guess. I really like his website (which appears to be no more, a shame) and his philosophy.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: i.munro on April 12, 2020, 01:53:24 pm
Veering (not entirely) off-topic. I'm trying to build  a basic fingerboarding setup & have some real noob questions. All in the context that big DIY stores seem to be delivering but probably not any actual climbing shop.
Rather to my surprise in lock-down a pull up bar frame thingy has been delivered so I now have 2 horizontal metal bars the upper 2m10cm off the floor & the other  ~20cm lower.
My thinking is a chunk of plywood as a back board (would 15mm be enough ?) but then I need to attach it.
Ideally in such a way it can be removed to allow pull-ups.
Ant thoughts or suggestions welcome thanks. I'm thinking in terms of screwing a batten to the back to "hook" over the bar. Would pine be ok or would it split?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: BenF on April 12, 2020, 02:38:11 pm
My thinking is a chunk of plywood as a back board (would 15mm be enough ?) but then I need to attach it.
Ideally in such a way it can be removed to allow pull-ups.
Ant thoughts or suggestions welcome thanks. I'm thinking in terms of screwing a batten to the back to "hook" over the bar. Would pine be ok or would it split?

I have a pull up bar that clips to the door frame using opposing forces. My fingerboard is attached to a piece of plywood that is wider than the doorway to stop it moving. I used bike hooks from B&Q, screwed into the plywood, which allow the board to hang from the pull up bar and be taken off easily. With careful positioning of the hooks, it was easy to ensure that the board does not move at all and stays locked in place.

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Paul B on April 12, 2020, 02:53:07 pm
Assertions based on his experience and results training people or solely based of that small study which seems to have got so many people stuck on a specific protocol? Big difference between the two I guess. I really like his website (which appears to be no more, a shame) and his philosophy.

Assertions based on 'mining' the data presented basically ignoring that it compared MED followed by MAW and MAW followed by MED in favour of interpreting it as a direct comparison of MED vs. MAW (which didn't exist in the paper). This wasn't just done on the intial outcome from the two groups but on the entire dataset 'split' into four. He went on to suggest that someone using MAW rather than MED was following the "best available SCIENCE".

I'm not going to re-listen to the podcast but I'm sure you can find it if you're so inclined. I also have the email thread/replies.

I will add that the debate was amicable in both directions.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 12, 2020, 03:18:18 pm
This guy?
https://web.archive.org/web/20170505105430/http://www.stevemaischtraining.com:80/the-economics-of-training.html

A crank, surely?

Almost any decent climber is full strength on the finger test, but not even Seb Bouin would pass the lifting tests. Should they all stop working fingers and start doing dead lifts? Because of "economics of training"? That's bat shit crazy, to put it politely.

Also, if you can do 30 strict BW pullups, you are Magnus Mitdbø—who readily admit that he wasted his time with strength exercises when he should have been climbing (it gave him a good second career though...)
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: i.munro on April 12, 2020, 03:29:34 pm
. I used bike hooks from B&Q, screwed into the plywood, which allow the board to hang from the pull up bar and be taken off easily. With careful positioning of the hooks, it was easy to ensure that the board does not move at all and stays locked in place.

Thanks I think I saw that one while trawling the net for ideas. However I don't think I can use it as i've got no doorframe just the 2 bars.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 12, 2020, 03:36:47 pm
Yeah the weights section is obviously based on Beef fed Americans rather than malnourished euro crimp waifs!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 12, 2020, 04:05:27 pm
I don’t agree at all with those comments re the weights. They all look pretty achievable and I suspect most properly strong climbers would benefit from doing them. None of them would be considered even vaguely hard for a lifter. My 16 year old could do all the adequate ones bar the pull ups and most of the full strong ones. 
30 pull ups at BW doesn’t sound hard with a bit of training.
The deadlift one is the only one that looks difficult.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: spidermonkey09 on April 12, 2020, 04:11:46 pm
30 pullups at body weight is nails. Fair play if you can just crank them out, but not sure its common!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 12, 2020, 04:31:40 pm
In my life I have never seen anyone do 30 consecutive pull ups in perfect form and reasonable cadence.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 12, 2020, 04:43:52 pm
That is elite level on his charts and he says once you can do that it’s pointless working to try to do more.

I think 20 is pretty standard in CrossFit. Guess he thinks climbers should be able to do more. 
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 12, 2020, 04:58:28 pm
Crossfit pull-ups aren’t pull ups
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: PlainCroi$$ant on April 12, 2020, 04:59:33 pm
Lots of useful stuff on this thread, thanks!

Whenever I've done some fingerboarding (which isn't much) I've only ever bothered that much with what I thought was a 'normal' grip and a three finger drag. It turns out my normal grip is to always chisel, which I can comfortably use to hang for 10 seconds on a 10mm edge (both arms at bw) - but after reading this and some other material it seems a half crimp is what I should be using but I've found I can barely engage a half crimp on a 20mm edge let alone a 10mm (both arms at bw).
Does this mean I just have weak index fingers and I should spend some time training my half crimp on bigger edges?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 12, 2020, 05:18:10 pm
Guess he thinks climbers should be able to do more.
As I said, a crank.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 12, 2020, 05:30:46 pm
Lots of useful stuff on this thread, thanks!

Whenever I've done some fingerboarding (which isn't much) I've only ever bothered that much with what I thought was a 'normal' grip and a three finger drag. It turns out my normal grip is to always chisel, which I can comfortably use to hang for 10 seconds on a 10mm edge (both arms at bw) - but after reading this and some other material it seems a half crimp is what I should be using but I've found I can barely engage a half crimp on a 20mm edge let alone a 10mm (both arms at bw).
Does this mean I just have weak index fingers and I should spend some time training my half crimp on bigger edges?

I similarly re trained to half crimp over the last 18 months. It’s mainly just adjustment for me - getting used to it and your fingers getting comfortable in the different position.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 12, 2020, 05:32:05 pm
Crossfit pull-ups aren’t pull ups
Glad somebody said it
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 12, 2020, 05:39:21 pm
They are if they are a pull up not a kipping pull up.
Guess he is just wrong then and doing 30 pull ups is just a ridiculous thing to expect from an elite level athlete.
Is 10 good enough or 20. 
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 12, 2020, 05:48:18 pm
That weights section is heavily caveated and I guess it just goes to show the variety in physical strength in elite level climbers. To take 2 examples who have both climbed 8C this year, I bet Matt Fultz is fullstekur for all of the strength ones and Eliot Stephens may not get Halfstekur on any of them! For me this is one of the beauties of climbing.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 12, 2020, 05:48:49 pm
Pretty much in line with this as well, in fact a bit easier if you go to the lower weights most climbers will fit into.
https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/pull-ups/kg
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 12, 2020, 05:53:27 pm
That weights section is heavily caveated and I guess it just goes to show the variety in physical strength in elite level climbers. To take 2 examples who have both climbed 8C this year, I bet Matt Fultz is fullstekur for all of the strength ones and Eliot Stephens may not get Halfstekur on any of them! For me this is one of the beauties of climbing.
He suggests that you should work on the aspects you have weakness in. If both of them can tick the fullstekur for the fingers but fall short on the others you may make more gains improving them. Same ideas lattice works on.
I am a bigger unit for a climber and guarantee I have way more chance ticking the weights stuff than the fingers.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 12, 2020, 06:07:16 pm
I similarly re trained to half crimp over the last 18 months. It’s mainly just adjustment for me - getting used to it and your fingers getting comfortable in the different position.

+1

Also couldn’t hang a 20mm Edge with a strict half crimp. Neither could Mina. It felt so uncomfortable and plain weird and inspired me to design an ergonomic hold where all the fingers could be at the same joint angle.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Paul B on April 12, 2020, 06:13:16 pm
https://www.trainingbeta.com/media/tbp-025-steve-maisch/

Quote from: Neely Quinn
So it’s even better to do more weight on a bigger edge than less weight on a smaller edge, even if you’re training for really small edges?

Quote from: Steve Maisch
Yeah. The study – it’s basically the only fingerboard study we have out there – they split two groups and one group trained more weight from a larger edge and the other one less weight from a smaller edge and then they brought them back to test them on the smaller edge. The group that trained more weight from a larger edge performed better on the small edge than the group that trained less weight on the small edge.

 :tumble:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Davo on April 12, 2020, 06:20:57 pm
Just had a brief look at the Maisch site. His weights and body weight stuff doesn't seem that hard with a bit of training. Not sure the training would be worthwhile for your average climber like me who is fairly time limited. For your pros, they should have a whole load of time and therefore can do more ancillary training.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 12, 2020, 06:24:19 pm
Very vital question: when training 3 fingers (front 3 or back 3) what do you do with the other finger. Bend it or keep it straight???
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: monkoffunk on April 12, 2020, 06:56:03 pm
Very vital question: when training 3 fingers (front 3 or back 3) what do you do with the other finger. Bend it or keep it straight???

Gresh had an answer to this on his ongoing instagram series. I think he had it bent, but not aggressively. My back three is so poor compared to my front that I wonder if I'm using my pinky much at all.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Fultonius on April 12, 2020, 08:05:44 pm
I similarly re trained to half crimp over the last 18 months. It’s mainly just adjustment for me - getting used to it and your fingers getting comfortable in the different position.

+1

Also couldn’t hang a 20mm Edge with a strict half crimp. Neither could Mina. It felt so uncomfortable and plain weird and inspired me to design an ergonomic hold where all the fingers could be at the same joint angle.

+1+1

I used to always chisel, and on the smaller BM rungs I still find it easier, but I've swapped to half crimp for training. At first I could barely hang bodyweight, but I seemed to rapidly catch up once to +24kg, now at +36kg so going to consider losing an arm soon.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 12, 2020, 08:56:39 pm
Is 10 good enough or 20.

More strength is always welcome, but 10 is not needed to onsight Kale Barroca. And 20 is definitely not needed for 9a in Frankenjura.


Also
(https://i.imgur.com/uCE0Zo3.png)

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 12, 2020, 09:06:39 pm
I bet Romain could do a one armed pretty sharpish if he put his mind to in, likewise 30 pull ups.

It’s very easy to look at what you potentially don’t need (i.e. Dave Graham couldn’t do a one armed but made up for it with wizardry), but a lot more difficult to say what’s would be beneficial on average.

Of course it’s  fine that you don’t agree with that list but I think it’s the start of a v interesting conversation. Someone like Megos, despite having enviable twiglet legs, is probably ticking a lot of boxes in the weight exercises that a lot of others aren’t.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 12, 2020, 09:33:34 pm
The point is that Desgrange did not waste his valuable time (having started climbing in his late teens) on getting to impressive level of pullups (and neither did Arnaud Petit as you can see in the comments). He just did his climbing training, which is important if you want to be better.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: teestub on April 12, 2020, 09:47:59 pm
I guess my point is that if you asked the top 10 ranking in difficulty (just had a look at 2019, pretty strong list, no Romain), the majority of them would be able to do a 1 armer, unlike Romain. (Traction un bras means one arm pull up right?)

Edit: didn’t realise how old Romain was, man I’m getting old!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 12, 2020, 10:17:08 pm
This has been trotted out for years and yes you don’t need to be able to do one armers or 30 pull ups to climb hard but It probably would hep you to get better.

This wasn’t about one arm pull ups though and I would put money on him being able to easily do 30 pull ups.

He counts for fuck all anyway as he’s about 55kg wringing wet.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 12, 2020, 10:25:04 pm
He’s not actually done anything hard either has he. Some obscure 8C and some 8Bs.

Maybe he should have worked on his one armers rather than another of his obviously good “caps”

Similar could be said of petite.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Yossarian on April 12, 2020, 10:36:30 pm
Thanks to the lucky discovery of a couple of sheets of 12mm ply we might be able to laminate them and cobble together a mini systems board which would massively help with a training reboot and not require the following, but anyway...

On the pull-up theme - what’s the current consensus re Bachar ladders? Are they outdated and injury-inducing relics of an ancient civilisation? It struck me that, together with a fingerboard they could be quite useful for slightly more climbing specific strength exercises...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 12, 2020, 10:41:52 pm
On the pull-up theme - what’s the current consensus re Bachar ladders? Are they outdated and injury-inducing relics of an ancient civilisation? It struck me that, together with a fingerboard they could be quite useful for slightly more climbing specific strength exercises...

Strung my old one up in the garden and had a play this morning. I’m certainly wary and only use it to do one or two moves at a time. Anecdotally a lot of the damage was from coming back down when tired with bad form.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Sidehaas on April 13, 2020, 08:29:45 am
What do people think about rest times between repeater sets?

If I only rest a couple of minutes between sets as per the lattice advice I struggle to complete the routine and also tend to tweak a tendon fairly regularly. On the other hand if I rest twice as long then I can finish the routine and not do myself damage. Am I reducing the training benefit by resting too much? I could of course take off some weight instead, but I'd have to go quite a long way below the recommended (lattice) %max in order to be able to finish.

I'm doing 7on/3off at just over 70% of my max hang weight and the aim is to get better at longer boulders again as I've lost the ability to climb hard for more than a couple of moves.
Thanks, great thread for some good advice and a bit of a laugh:)
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 13, 2020, 08:41:09 am
I have 3 min rest. 2 never seemed long enough for me.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: nai on April 13, 2020, 08:50:56 am
I think they classify it as AnCap don't they?  AnCap rests are generally 2-4 times work time so at 2 minutes that would be the lower end of that.  So you could lengthen the rest times to start with and bring them back down or increase the intensity as you improve.

FWIW, I recently completed an Andesron hangs block and rested 3 minutes between the 7 rep and 6 rep sets then took 5 minutes before changing grip.  That was at Alex's suggestion and seemed to work ok.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Sidehaas on April 13, 2020, 10:08:08 am
Thanks guys
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 13, 2020, 03:54:22 pm
My, this thread is getting long.

30 pull-ups is a mere warm up for the Leeds Crew (6 min 30 sec)...

https://youtu.be/CorfPVWZGfI
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 13, 2020, 04:03:14 pm
One of the other training forums I sometimes look at has a leaderboard where users can upload PB's for various standard lifts. Would be fun to do something like that on here whilst we're all cocooned away: max pull-ups, 20 mm edge hang time, one arm lock off time, 1 RM deadlifts etc etc...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 13, 2020, 04:06:14 pm
This is what I mean I case it not obvious...

https://www.sugdenbarbell.co.uk/pbchart
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: IanP on April 13, 2020, 04:11:04 pm
My, this thread is getting long.

30 pull-ups is a mere warm up for the Leeds Crew (6 min 30 sec)...

https://youtu.be/CorfPVWZGfI

Given the maximum pull-ups that an olympic gymnast achieved was 40, and that was without strict form, 30 pull ups looks pretty hard!  And those guys looked proper strong  :strongbench:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Sasquatch on April 13, 2020, 06:06:42 pm
Cast off any ideas about there being two types of fingerboarding that do two different things and view the varieties of protocols on a spectrum of strength and strength endurance with variation in intensity and time under tension.

This was stated a ways back and is key. 

There is value in doing 90-95% max work(i.e. 5-10 second single rep max hangs), and there is value in doing 70-80% max work(i.e some version of 7/3 or 6/4 style repeaters).  It's all about how you structure it. 

However, there is a difference in isometric training and the research involved in isometric training as compared to full ROM training.  In my research (limited i'll grant), I've found that most isometric research seems to increase time under tension (TUT) by extending work time rather than adding reps.  So to get 40 seconds of TUT you would simply hang for 40 seconds straight.  This is substantially different than a repeater (a 6 x 7on/3off repeater is 42 seconds of TUT).  If you're wondering try both.

Has anyone on here found research showing a reason to do reps of an isometric?  I haven't.  That's why I don't do repeaters any more.  I do a variety of shortened rest cycles(20second at 80%, 40second rest x 5), but nothing like a 7/3 repeater.   I just don't think a 7/3 or 6/4 has more value. 
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Nibile on April 13, 2020, 06:27:18 pm
My, this thread is getting long.

30 pull-ups is a mere warm up for the Leeds Crew (6 min 30 sec)...

https://youtu.be/CorfPVWZGfI

Given the maximum pull-ups that an olympic gymnast achieved was 40, and that was without strict form, 30 pull ups looks pretty hard!  And those guys clooked proper strong  :strongbench:
Gymnasts don't train for max reps, so that number is just due to their absurd level of strength.
40 is hard but achievable by anyone with dedication and patience. I could do 40 and I seem to recall once doing 44. I could only do one one armer. That was 1996 I think.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 13, 2020, 07:15:19 pm
Thanks Nibile as usual someone to rely on re strength facts.

I have never tried to do 30 nor am I suggesting I could, I just didn’t think it sounded too much for and elite athlete to be able to do it. Like you I suspect the gymnasts just did it off the couch.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: IanP on April 13, 2020, 07:45:11 pm
Thanks Nibile as usual someone to rely on re strength facts.

I have never tried to do 30 nor am I suggesting I could, I just didn’t think it sounded too much for and elite athlete to be able to do it. Like you I suspect the gymnasts just did it off the couch.

I'm sure its possible with training, but those guys are definitely elite athletes and didn't make it look easy so guess the question is whether it is useful strength benchmark for high level climbers.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: dunnyg on April 13, 2020, 07:55:27 pm
I get the feeling those guys have never seen a couch, let alone been on one.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 13, 2020, 08:52:34 pm
And still they were all kipping like fuck before they got to 30
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 13, 2020, 09:16:36 pm
Nibs good effort with the 44 pull-ups. Couldn't have the gymnasts win over climbers. That would be totally embarrassing!

In theory it should be possible to reverse engineer a Prilepin Table to work out what 1RM is needed for a given number of body weight pull-ups. I'd say that 40 would correspond to somewhere around double body weight 1RM. Nibs - have you done 1RM testing?

About 4 years ago I was more into the weights and did a +80kg 1RM pullup (at a body weight of around 85kg. Rather annoyingly max body weight pull-ups fizzled at 28 reps on more than one occasion (which I think in part was psychological as well as physical). My aim at that point was 30.

Having said this managing 20 body weight should be more than enough for most purposes and once people can achieve this then they should focus energies elsewhere.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 13, 2020, 10:04:44 pm
Thanks Nibile as usual someone to rely on re strength facts.

I have never tried to do 30 nor am I suggesting I could, I just didn’t think it sounded too much for and elite athlete to be able to do it. Like you I suspect the gymnasts just did it off the couch.

I'm sure its possible with training, but those guys are definitely elite athletes and didn't make it look easy so guess the question is whether it is useful strength benchmark for high level climbers.

That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Nibile on April 13, 2020, 10:16:22 pm

Nibs - have you done 1RM testing?
Cheers! I was young though.
No, I've never tested 1RM pull ups, but I could do one front on one armer. Then I completely forgot about pull ups for ages. A few years ago I reached my peak on one armers, but twisting. At the time I was probably around 30 pull ups. I remember doing 26 on a medium campus rung at the end of a long bouldering session with Monolith and Crouch.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 13, 2020, 10:56:48 pm
That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.

Ah sorry I hadn't read the thread in depth. Like you say these are not big numbers for regular gym persons.

There's a couple of things:

1/ These metrics are not very climbing specific, they are basically things that people can do in a standard gym

2/ I would say that this kind of strength would be what would be seen in muscular / chunky boulderers operating in the Font 7's. I don't think these standards would be any good for those ectomorph body types operating in Grade 8 bouldering or high end sport. Look at the difference in body types between time trial / indoor circuit cyclists and king of the mountain guys. Another topic but I'd say you can get away with a bit too much unnecessary muscle for bouldering but when high level sport climbing there's no where to hide, you have to get the weight down as much as is safely possible.

3/ Climbing is a body weight sport (+ a harness and a few quickdraws). Principle of specificity of training (and testing) is always key. Correct me if I'm wrong but Shark isn't going to bang out a 3 minute plank half way up his successful ascent of the Oak...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 14, 2020, 11:20:40 am

That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.

Come on, they are fucking bonkers.

Even I am full strength on the fingers test, or near it.

Why would a climber stop training fingers and get their dead lift up to >2 bw. Utter madness
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Nibile on April 14, 2020, 11:26:08 am
Principle of specificity of training (and testing) is always key. Correct me if I'm wrong but Shark isn't going to bang out a 3 minute plank half way up his successful ascent of the Oak...
This is indeed correct.
Specificity is indeed crucial.
But.
The most specific way to assess if one has the potential to climb a route, is to try the route.
And the most specific way to train for a specific route is to train on the route.
This is what many people, with lots of spare time, do.
Other people, though, can't, and therefore they need references and measurable quantities. So, to climb a certain route, the climber could need a level of body thension that, switched to other measurable tasks, could be equal to a three minute plank or to a 2BW DL, or to X one armers, or to X hang on a Lattice Edge.
As it's been said before, it's a matter of potential, and it's not predictive.

What should one do if references lack (like in most cases)?
It's very simple: just keep training. When one fulfills or nearly fulfills his potential on a certain single field of the overall performance (body tension, fingers, pulling power, etc.) they know that failure is due to other factors (technique, mindset, conditions, etc.), so they can move on and assess, or try to, those factors. It's a very simple trial and error process, in an era in which few people want the trial and no one wants the error.

No offense meant people, but I think this whole thread is paradigmatic: for a "lockdown fingerboarding program" there's no real need to get lost in the minutiae. Even a couple of months are nothing compared to a long term training plan, especially if one hasn't put the hours in before. Two months of serious fingerboarding will be lost in almost the same amount of time if one simply sacks it and just goes climbing afterwards.
At the same time, for a fingerboarding novice, nearly everything will work: maybe it will not be the best possible result, but it will give results. Then, if one decides to keep at it, after some time it will be useful to gather more info, and after some more time it will become crucial to gather other info to raise the bar.

So, I understand that people want as many info as possible, and I appreciate the amount of info that this topic gathered, but I personally think that they could be overkill, for the specific lockdown duration planning; maybe, once this nightmare will be over, this topic will serve as a mini encyclopedia of fingerboardin advice.
I also understand that this post is due to my actual vision of climbing and training, which I'm sure is extremely peculiar, to say the least...

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 14, 2020, 12:28:13 pm
Very true re: making things specific for an outdoor project. I was looking at a utube clip of a slowish climber doing something at malham on the catwalk the other day. It fit the 7:3 protocol almost perfectly (x 25 reps).

I don't know if people aware that Thor is going to try to beat Eddie Halls deadlift record in a couple weeks (501 kg). Due to shutdown this is to be done in Thor's home gym. There is quite a lot of opinion within the strongman world that this record is meaningless and is not to be accepted / only a lift in an official competition should count...
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 14, 2020, 01:14:19 pm

That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.

Come on, they are fucking bonkers.

Even I am full strength on the fingers test, or near it.

Why would a climber stop training fingers and get their dead lift up to >2 bw. Utter madness

To be fair he didn’t advocate stopping all finger training or at least I didn’t read it that way.

His general point was compromising a bit in terms of training time usage and recovery to address areas where you are weak and whilst that weakness might be  peripheral it may be such a shortcoming that it holds back in your climbing performance.

I think in general the point is a fair one and shouldn’t be lost even if the benchmark exercises and levels he chose to pick are open to criticism.

That point though is skewed to be good all round which might not be the preferred approach. The proverbial crimp waif may want to stayed focussed as a specialist on their bleeding edge problems rather than gaining muscle and therefore weight through deadlifting even if it improves their poor performance on burly undercuts and roofs and makes them more resistant to injury. Even this back-fired badly for Katy Whittaker when she put her back out badly learning to deadlift.

Anyway IMO if you want to specifically improve your posterior chain for lever moves or standing up on undercut on a route (or even in my case sorting out long-standing lower back problems that meant my back would go when I did lots of training) then deadlifting might be a good exercise which in reality doesn’t particularly get in the way of finger training in terms of recovery assuming you have the time to do both.

I took the view that getting to twice bodyweight was enough for what I needed and any more harder won gains would be largely for its own sake.

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 14, 2020, 01:18:55 pm
Good post Lore.

I’d be interested in how long people think their training plan was going to last? (You mentioned 2 months).

For me it’s 6 months min. Could well be a year. That’s what I’m planning... hence a gentle start focusing on form - to try and build a base before ramping stuff up in the summer.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: shark on April 14, 2020, 01:20:27 pm
Very true re: making things specific for an outdoor project. I was looking at a utube clip of a slowish climber doing something at malham on the catwalk the other day. It fit the 7:3 protocol almost perfectly (x 25 reps).

Haha. If only it was just the fingers that were letting me down.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 01:39:54 pm
I’d be interested in how long people think their training plan was going to last?

I don't really understand the question... I have how my year looks sketched out in my head (not anymore obvs!), then write plans of anywhere from 1-6 months, but I always adjust as I go along.

Most covid plans presumably last until lockdown ends, at which point they get replaced by something else, depending on what the new rules of the game are and look likely to be. Maybe your q makes more sense to people who don't normally follow any form of plan? :shrug:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 14, 2020, 01:43:32 pm
I’d be interested in how long people think their training plan was going to last?

I don't really understand the question...  Maybe your q makes more sense to people who don't normally follow any form of plan? :shrug:

Yes - thats right. I've never had a training plan (apart from try doing a bit more of this or that) - so having a period where I will not be able to climb outdoors (or at a wall) for what I anticipate to be at least 6 months gives me the chance to plan for that long.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 01:45:52 pm
I don't buy that we won't be climbing outside for 6 months, but maybe I'm just optimistic
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Whyatt on April 14, 2020, 01:49:06 pm
6 months.. If that's the case I'm buying a van and living at the Tor
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 14, 2020, 01:49:39 pm
"Haha. If only it was just the fingers that were letting me down"

Ha ha ha - it wasn't you, it was actually Nat Berry on Raindogs  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 14, 2020, 01:53:17 pm
I don't buy that we won't be climbing outside for 6 months, but maybe I'm just optimistic
Agreed, I think there's pretty much no chance of outdoor exercise still being restricted through the summer, but walls (and pubs etc) are another thing and may well be shut till the autumn or beyond
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 14, 2020, 01:54:44 pm

That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.

Come on, they are fucking bonkers.

Even I am full strength on the fingers test, or near it.

Why would a climber stop training fingers and get their dead lift up to >2 bw. Utter madness

Suggest your not very balanced then. Would think most of the worlds top boulderers would be able to DL 2x body-weight easily. I know that the one of the UKs strongest had never done them before and lifted well in excess of 2x BW the first session he tried. I guess this is due to them having incredible body strength and tension so it transferred easily to a DL, therefore it would stand that it goes the other way. I would put money on the same person being able to tick most of the other benchmarks as well.

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Nibile on April 14, 2020, 01:56:43 pm
Good post Lore.


For me it’s 6 months min. Could well be a year.

to try and build a base before ramping stuff up in the summer.
Cheers TomTom.
And I am very proud of you.
 :punk:
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 01:57:51 pm
Yeah, but they'd also be miles better than the fingers benchmark too probably so not a useful comparison to the metrics. The fingers benchmark is a notch below world class so you can't start using Aidan, Varian, Bosi, Shauna etc as examples
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 02:01:22 pm
TomTom - realised you may mean that you won't be even if others are and it's legal, in which case fair enough and make a long-term plan but don't be afraid to adjust it as you go
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 14, 2020, 02:04:04 pm
I don't buy that we won't be climbing outside for 6 months, but maybe I'm just optimistic
I hope your right but i think it could be the case. It will be classed as non essential, still a pretty minority thing and brings little if anything to the economy outside of the climbing walls and centers so think it will be one of the last things back.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: jwi on April 14, 2020, 02:05:06 pm
I spent like 3 months doing deadlifts twice a week and got to around 2 times bodyweight. Utter waste of time, will never do again.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: reeve on April 14, 2020, 02:08:02 pm
Yeah, but they'd also be miles better than the fingers benchmark too probably so not a useful comparison to the metrics. The fingers benchmark is a notch below world class so you can't start using Aidan, Varian, Bosi, Shauna etc as examples

So what's your best deadlift, bro?
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 14, 2020, 02:10:17 pm
Yeah, but they'd also be miles better than the fingers benchmark too probably so not a useful comparison to the metrics. The fingers benchmark is a notch below world class so you can't start using Aidan, Varian, Bosi, Shauna etc as examples

he does state greater than +50% of bodyweight for the hangs which suggests its open ended, but stops DLs a x2.

And are the people you mention not the elite, everyone below them is just average.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 14, 2020, 02:23:49 pm
I spent like 3 months doing deadlifts twice a week and got to around 2 times bodyweight. Utter waste of time, will never do again.

So your dismissing the exercise for everyone, and as a good measure of strength for an elite athlete, based on your sample of one.

The person i use as an example struggles to do one arm hangs on a standard edge but can DL well over 2x BW having not done any before. Suggests to me there is a connection to being able to boulder hard as the bio-mechanics must have a crossover.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Rob F on April 14, 2020, 02:26:16 pm
"So what's your best deadlift, bro?"

Double overhand or reverse grip???
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 14, 2020, 02:31:09 pm
TomTom - realised you may mean that you won't be even if others are and it's legal, in which case fair enough and make a long-term plan but don't be afraid to adjust it as you go

Oh - if we are allowed to go outside I'll go if I can :) 

BUT - I think it will be more restricted - socially - as in needing to find somewhere deserted etc.. and even if allowed the dynamic will completely change I think. Places like Rubicon where walkers mix with the climbers will be harder/places to avoid - and places with marginal access might be trickier as its a great excuse for a landowner to be grumpy/kick someone off..

Plus will probably be a shit wet summer after any restrictions are eased :D.

As others have said - walls will be shut for at least another 6 months (end of the year??) - so it'll be train train train and the odd outdoors if there is respite.

Thats the plan. I'm into my 4th consecutive week of fingerboarding... its already a record!!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 03:47:47 pm
And are the people you mention not the elite, everyone below them is just average.

I think we're getting our wires crossed somewhere. Yeah, they're the elite, and most of them would nuke the fingers test, so IMO they're not so useful for judging the other stuff. You need people who just about hit the fingers score and then see if they just about hit the other scores.

As ever, I imagine most of this depends on what you think rounded means, and I'm not surprised if sport climbers think that rounded means something more fingery and less body-power orientated than boulderers, which I think is what the last 3 pages has come down to! I can think of plenty of boulders where more burl and squeeze would be a big help, but when I fail on routes it's usually fingers and fitness that would be the thing that I'm lacking. Plus ability in both scenario obviously, but just thinking physical things.

Re: timings of climbing. Once people can move around again I think people will go climbing. If any offices, cafes, tourism things, restaurants, hotels etc are open with social distancing restrictions in place I think people will go climbing, if only because it will get hard to convince people that that stuff is ok but walking in the peak isn't, and as soon as you can drive around doing that stuff people will drive around climbing.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 14, 2020, 04:29:13 pm
Your right i am talking about real climbers.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 05:00:56 pm
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. To your anecdotes of people who could hit those numbers, there are jwi's of climbers who couldn't etc. I tried to write a response explaining where the differences in perception might come from, but since you can't be arsed to read it, I'll just punter you instead.

I get it now, you mean you're talking about boulderers. Sorry, I puntered you cos I thought you were being too lazy to read/respond properly
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Bradders on April 14, 2020, 05:01:53 pm
Good post Lore.

I’d be interested in how long people think their training plan was going to last? (You mentioned 2 months).

For me it’s 6 months min. Could well be a year. That’s what I’m planning... hence a gentle start focusing on form - to try and build a base before ramping stuff up in the summer.

Last couple of years I've operated on a hybrid of the Dave MacLeod and Steve Bechtel "Logical Progression" approaches.

I.e. Dave Mac - if you can climb outside, go climb outside

Logical Progression - when training essentially cycle between strength, power, strength endurance and pure endurance (I skip the last bit cos I'm a boulderer). I cycle between the three things but with a high level focus which usually lasts about 3 months; last 3 were power for example.

This gives me periods e.g. February where the weather is toss and I train, followed by periods e.g. March where it's better and I just get out and mix in training when other priorities prevent going outside.

This therefore hasn't meant much change for me; it's just like there has been an extended period of shit weather. The plan lasts as long as the weather lasts and I change the focus every quarter.

The only way I've deviated from that is when I have a trip coming up, at which point I'll tend to focus on power before tapering down just before going.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 14, 2020, 05:11:39 pm
It was a joke about endurance prioritising sports climbers Alex being not real. I didn’t think we were all so stir crazy as to need joking emojis already.
I got your response and totally agree. As always I am talking about my version of a strong climber and the people I had in mind were not the route specialists. If your wanting to do a 50 m long stamina plod it may not be as important.

Anyway my comments were only about the fact I don’t think Steve’s Benchmarks were that hard to achieve where others suggested they were crazy and I still stand by that. The jury is obviously out on whether people think they are worth trying to achieve but I personally think they are.
Feel free to punter  me anyway I really don’t give a shit.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 14, 2020, 05:12:19 pm
You beat me to it.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: abarro81 on April 14, 2020, 05:55:28 pm
I didn’t think we were all so stir crazy as to need joking emojis already.

I don't know, my head's pretty fucked up right now. Reckon I've done 3hrs of productive work in an 8 hr day, and 1 of them was listening to a webinar.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: tomtom on April 14, 2020, 05:57:49 pm
If you actually listened to the webinar instead of composing UKB replies then that’s a success!
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: dunnyg on April 14, 2020, 06:06:23 pm
3 hours is the dream
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Bradders on April 15, 2020, 11:04:20 am
Not 30 pull ups, but still quite impressive...

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-_vbL7DMrl/?igshid=1b8w6yg9zfu3g
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Liamhutch89 on April 15, 2020, 11:56:34 am
I have/had a triple bodyweight deadlift (probably a bit less now) and i've always been relatively good at stepping high and driving a lot of power through the feet and also on undercuts. I've no doubt that this can be achieved at far lower levels of hinge strength and considering the additional muscle mass that's needed in the legs and core, there's probably a point where it becomes a disadvantage (>2x?).
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: gme on April 15, 2020, 03:26:09 pm
All about balance i guess.

Suggest being able to one arm deadhang the 10mm micros but unable to do any of the other stuff or use your feet etc. would mean your limited as well.

Lots of folks have absurd deadhang abilities and dont seem to climb that hard at all. Just like people being able to boulder 8A and not do an 8a route.

All about balance and i think thats what Steve Maisch is suggesting.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 15, 2020, 05:37:22 pm
Anyone who can do 8A but thinks they can't do 8a just hasn't tried a suitable one.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duncan campbell on April 15, 2020, 07:57:19 pm
Anyone who can do 8A but thinks they can't do 8a just hasn't tried a suitable one.

If you can climb 8A surely the only thing that would hold you back on a lowly 8a would be fear??
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: Duma on April 15, 2020, 08:05:43 pm
Anyone who can do 8A but thinks they can't do 8a just hasn't tried a suitable one.

If you can climb 8A surely the only thing that would hold you back on a lowly 8a would be fear??
As a boulderer of that sort of level, there's plenty of enduro 8a's (or even 7c's) that are miles away, so it may not be just fear, but certainly cruxy ones are very doable.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: monkoffunk on April 27, 2020, 02:24:53 pm
Anybody have any advice for a large inconsistency between arms? I seem to be able to hold an equivalent hang with my left arm for almost double my right arm. Should I be doing twice as many hangs with my right arm to try to match the time? Or doing more that side?

Sorry if this has been answered already, I may have missed it during my cursory search.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: nai on April 27, 2020, 02:53:17 pm
Any help?


its likely an arm or shoulder weakness thats causing a big discrepency anyhow if you're doing well with lots of weight on on 2 arms. Normal good form rules apply, shoulder engaged on straight arm etc, might also be good to build in some scap and lat pulls with two arms to target potential weak areas (in the absence of a bod poking you in a test)

Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: monkoffunk on April 27, 2020, 03:25:51 pm
Yeah. I guess it seemed like too much of a discrepancy to be purely fingers. Do need to work on form.
Title: Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
Post by: AMorris on May 12, 2020, 02:48:08 pm
Found the end of a training block a couple of weeks back so I decided to change things up a bit. For context my previous finger sessions involved one arm deadhanging the low BM2 rung (half crimp), adding 2.5kg each set till failure then rolling it back and doing 4 sets of this. Worked great for a while, but I was little finger nestling a lot so this next set is basically as strict as possible not nestling the corner, which is of course a bit weaker (but ethics innit).

I also did dragging sessions on the upper right eye using the same format.

My question is as follows.

They are basically the same exercise: hanging a rung with one arm. For the purpose of changing things up, how useful would it be to start adding in some two arm max hangs on the smaller outside edges? I know this seems to be a bit backwards, but it is not something I have done much before so I am wondering whether it might be worth pursuing that for a while.

My logic behind this is that on the middle low rung my PRs are +12.5kg nestled, +8.75kg non nestled (for 5s), and yet I find it very hard to hang the smaller edge, only getting 3-4s of trying not to fire off on a good day.

The frustrating thing is that I can hang that hold fine on other BM2's, but on mine it seems wildly difficult. With the objective of hanging this hold one armed more comfortably, would two arm weighted hangs on it help or should I just bash on with weighed one armers on the low rung?

Apologies for the long and slightly ugly post
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