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the shizzle => news => Topic started by: edshakey on December 27, 2021, 09:42:58 am
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3 days after Franco's post/grading of Immortal E11, it looks to have been repeated. Logged on UKC, would guess Tom Pearce? Anyone know?
Unless Steve Mac has finally come round to his promise of getting over to the Moors soon, and started logging on UKC!
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Its probably a phantom logger as it says it was done today. Its 09.48 so would have been an early start and doubt connies were good that early.
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I did think that, but given it's by a private logger, it seemed plausible. Didn't notice the date though, certainly doubt it was done this morning, and logged immediately!
Shame :(
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Must have missed the write up of this. Franco given up on H grades then?
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Must have missed the write up of this. Franco given up on H grades then?
Seems so, at least for this one.
https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/franco-cookson-immortal-maidens-bluff-uk.html
Here's an article, not on insta but I'm guessing most of the article comes from a post on there.
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I did think that, but given it's by a private logger, it seemed plausible. Didn't notice the date though, certainly doubt it was done this morning, and logged immediately!
Shame :(
Deleted now surprise surprise!
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
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Not saying you're wrong about your implication there Andy, but to flip it round surely all the stuff Franco has done in the North York Moors also needs to get some attention from the wealth of people who'd surely be capable?
Only way we'll find out for sure whether these things are accurate is if others go and repeat them.
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
Don't start on all that again Andy. It comes across as bitter and very boring.
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I did think that, but given it's by a private logger, it seemed plausible. Didn't notice the date though, certainly doubt it was done this morning, and logged immediately!
Shame :(
Deleted now surprise surprise!
:'(
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Not saying you're wrong about your implication there Andy, but to flip it round surely all the stuff Franco has done in the North York Moors also needs to get some attention from the wealth of people who'd surely be capable?
Only way we'll find out for sure whether these things are accurate is if others go and repeat them.
Some of his stuff has had attention. Tom Randall thought Myxomop was the real deal and didn't repeat; Dan Varian has decked off Nothing Lasts and hasn't been back (I believe. Happy to be corrected).
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I'm not saying Franco hasn't climbed many hard things on the Moors, he clearly has. Those that have had repeats have all kept the grades, haven't they?
He's clearly a talented lad, exceptionally bold and capable of pulling hard moves in very insecure situations, very praiseworthy.
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Not saying you're wrong about your implication there Andy, but to flip it round surely all the stuff Franco has done in the North York Moors also needs to get some attention from the wealth of people who'd surely be capable?
Only way we'll find out for sure whether these things are accurate is if others go and repeat them.
Some of his stuff has had attention. Tom Randall thought Myxomop was the real deal and didn't repeat; Dan Varian has decked off Nothing Lasts and hasn't been back (I believe. Happy to be corrected).
Thats what I have heard also Will. Good enough for me. Andy just has a long running disbelief of the grades of Franco's stuff which get very old and boring years later.
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?
According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?
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https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/franco-cookson-immortal-maidens-bluff-uk.html
Here's an article, not on insta but I'm guessing most of the article comes from a post on there.
According to Cookson, the result is a line that is "as physically hard as any of the safe outcrop E10 Trad routes in the UK, but with obvious far bigger consequences if you fail."
Must have also missed Franco’s trip to Pembrokeshire to repeat Choronzon, etc too!
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I couldn't give a toss either way, and I may be wrong, but I always take "outcrop routes" to mean stuff on sandstone and gritsone crags. So for that, I guess read shorter lived difficulties, but often tenuous and bolder, rather than long, hard and sustained as on big sea cliffs and mountain crags.
So I guess the question is,what are all of the safe outcrop e10's in the country, and which ones is Franco basing his grade against? Off the top of my head, equilibrium, parthian without the flake, hard cheese,
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Tom Randall thought Myxomop was the real deal and didn't repeat
Not sure that interpretation is quite right... I think Randall had tried it a bit before Franco did it. Franco then did it very quickly I think. Doubt Randall ever went back to try and repeat it. The rock quality isn't that great on this but it's solid where it matters. I've worked it a bit and I'd say it breaks down as a highball 7C to a decent hold then into a very highball 7A. The landing is good but it is pretty high and the nature of the moves mean you could fall off unexpectedly and therefore out of control. It's good, keen for another look in Spring.
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I couldn't give a toss either way, and I may be wrong, but I always take "outcrop routes" to mean stuff on sandstone and gritsone crags. So for that, I guess read shorter lived difficulties, but often tenuous and bolder, rather than long, hard and sustained as on big sea cliffs and mountain crags.
So I guess the question is,what are all of the safe outcrop e10's in the country, and which ones is Franco basing his grade against? Off the top of my head, equilibrium, parthian without the flake, hard cheese,
OK so nothing on volcanic or metamorphic rock, or nothing next to the sea? I always read outcrop as ‘not multipitch’ but wft would I know about trad climbing, I’m a boulderer 😄
Equilibrium is deffo not safe, Blind Vision at Froggatt starts with an 8A+ boulder, not sure how safe The Groove is, but looks tricky.
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Like I say, I might be wrong. Certainly refers to stuff on the shorter side. I'm sure theres plenty in lakes and Wales that would qualify as an outcrop route, but I wouldn't include stuff like chorozon. Such a different style.
I was being tongue in cheek when I referred to equilibrium etc as being safe, I'm very intrigued to know what they are!
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So I guess the question is,what are all of the safe outcrop e10's in the country
Robbie Phillips' new route What We Do In The Shadows would count as a safe E10 outcrop climb. However it was probably climbed after Franco climbed and graded his route so it's unlikely he was influenced by it.
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Hold fast? Dave Macs other e10's? I'm actually struggling to think of many more. Out of curiosity, does anyone know which ones Franco is comparing to?
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Greatness Wall is E10 and, I suppose, "safe" after a fashion.
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I know Franco has tried Greatness Wall a few times but Immortal doesn’t look like as hard moves . On GW the crux is probs thin vert font 8a.
Hard to compare though because It’s difficult to judge the difficulty of the immortal crux , but it looks more positive crimps but a weird insecure sequence that looks necky for a solo.
Also , there is footage of Tom Pearce doing the immortal crux sequence on his Insta and he makes it look pretty steady. Again, not that that is anything really to go by. He may be a tech and crimp master.
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Hello,
I don't really want to compare Immortal overall to any individual established hard lines, as I've not done any of them and that would be bad crack. I think we can compare the climbing on them though.
As a general list of outcrop (I.e. not mountain or sea cliff) routes in the UK where the climbing is physically hard:
Die by the Drop (didn't get through the hard move)
Hold Fast, Hold True
Nothing Lasts
Sign of the Devil
Lexicon (suppose that's mountain, but doesnt feel that mountainy)
Hard cheese (not tried this)
Barron greenback (not tried this)
Gerty berwick (didn't get to the hard move)
Widdop wall (not tried this)
Dynamics of change
Doctor Doolittle
Sleepy hollow
Obviously some of those are slightly easier or harder graded than E10, but my basic point was that I kinda know what none super dangerous E10 feels like, now I've probably been on as many as anyone else. Generally I can lob a rope down them and figure out the climbing in a couple of sessions. I do need to pull my finger out and actually climb some of them, as I appreciate my grading is kinda house of cards stuff, and that's a priority this year.
It is for this reason that I've been hounding everyone I know to come and have a look at Immortal since April, as I really don't know how hard the crux is and if we figured that out, the Trad grade would be easyish to extrapolate. It's pretty much as bold as you can get on an outcrop cliff - terrible gear, sketch moves, suspect rock. It's the kind of thing that would be E7 if it was tech 6a. But, in the end it was getting towards the end of the year and it felt stupid to have not graded it.
The climbing compares most to greatness or sleepy hollow I suppose, with all 3 being vertish sandstonish and quite standout hard for a trad route, but that's what I wanted a second opinion on.
It's kind of disappointing people don't seem keen to come and look at stuff unless they think it's going to be an easy tick. I've heard loads of rumours about people having gone to have a look at Nothing Lasts, but then they don't publicly say anything, which is sad for the development of consensi.
Re the video: I chatted to Tom recently about Immortal and I think I'm right in saying he's still to fully do the hard moves on Immortal without help from the rope. I think the video he uploaded was to show it was possible for a short person to reach between the holds. I'm sure he will do it eventually like, he's talented and very determined (and still only 16!). I agree it looks easy in that video.
Anyway... This doesn't have to be very mysterious for those of you wondering- it's about 45 mins from the A1 next time you're heading north and has a 5 min flat walk in. Stake at the top. It's really not the logistical challenge of Nothing Lasts. If you like crimping, I'm sure many of you could at least have a guess at a boulder grade, even if you're not psyched for the lead. The maths of it is probably pretty simple- f7B ~E10, f7C ~ E11 , f8A ~ E12 , f8B ~ E13. Unless the hooks turn out to be okay, or rip entirely.
Oh, and the guy posting on the climbing wall thread wants to get a desiccant dehumidifier (assuming his garage is fairly air tight). Get a good one and they're amazing.
Edit to say: MYXOMOP (pronounced muck-a-moor [sorry about that route name]) is really not hard in the grand scheme of things. I find it curious that people continue to mention this route in the context of justifying E11s - I graded it H8. It is a lovely feature I suppose. Crazy that no ones repeated it. Howay Steve!
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He may be a tech and crimp master.
Without wanting to sound like a dick, he was at K one day this summer and could barely bolt-to-bolt Sticky Wicket or 50-for-5. Obviously he may be v specialist and much better at sandstone.
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Split from “significant repeats”.
Hope the title reflects the gist of the discussion
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Now this has its own thread maybe we can get a list of those outcrop routes that have genuinely hard climbing free from the miasma of the E grade. A couple that haven’t been mentioned are Captain Invincible at Burbage, Toxic Bilberries at Wilton, Transform and Purgatory at back Bowden
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He may be a tech and crimp master.
Without wanting to sound like a dick, he was at K one day this summer and could barely bolt-to-bolt Sticky Wicket or 50-for-5. Obviously he may be v specialist and much better at sandstone.
you never had a bad day at the crag?
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I have, obviously. My point was in response to Ed's comment about making things look easy and whether that's just because he's amazing. I would read very little into Toby R or Josh I making something look piss; this kid did not seem to be a Toby or Josh in tech and crimp ability. Of course like I said he may be very disproportionately good on sandstone.
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He may be a tech and crimp master.
Without wanting to sound like a dick, he was at K one day this summer and could barely bolt-to-bolt Sticky Wicket or 50-for-5. Obviously he may be v specialist and much better at sandstone.
To be fair to Franco I can't do sticky wicket either
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Now this has its own thread maybe we can get a list of those outcrop routes that have genuinely hard climbing free from the miasma of the E grade. A couple that haven’t been mentioned are Captain Invincible at Burbage, Toxic Bilberries at Wilton, Transform and Purgatory at back Bowden
This would be a fun list I reckon! To pick a few from Franco's post that'd fit the criteria and add a few grades to the ones you suggested:
- Hard cheese, ~8c
- Barron greenback, I think Pete said it was around 8b?
- Nothing Lasts, was it Ned or Dan V who suggested ~8A?
- Captain Invincible, ~8b
- Captain Invincible, ~8b
- Toxic Bilberries
- Transcendence (I assume you meant this, dont think there's a route called Transform at Bowden), ~7C+ or 8b
- Purgatory, ~8A+
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Sticky Wicket is the world's hardest sport climb unless your right arm is vastly overdeveloped for whatever reason.
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There's a bit of a dilemma with Immortal (finally, a difficult route with a good name). On the one hand it would be good for people to have a rope down it and see what they think; on the other it isn't good to put traffic through fragile crimps if there's not going to be a lead at the end of it.
Are they that fragile, Franco? You must have top roped it a lot before lead. Any crumbling?
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…terrible gear, sketch moves, suspect rock.
Really selling it for would be repeaters 😂
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He may be a tech and crimp master.
Without wanting to sound like a dick, he was at K one day this summer and could barely bolt-to-bolt Sticky Wicket or 50-for-5. Obviously he may be v specialist and much better at sandstone.
To be fair to Franco I can't do sticky wicket either
I don't know what this route is, but I'm pretty sure I've never been on it. I'm not amazing at sport climbing, but would expect to get up a 7b just about (if I've found the correct route you're talking about hahaha).
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There's a bit of a dilemma with Immortal (finally, a difficult route with a good name). On the one hand it would be good for people to have a rope down it and see what they think; on the other it isn't good to put traffic through fragile crimps if there's not going to be a lead at the end of it.
Are they that fragile, Franco? You must have top roped it a lot before lead. Any crumbling?
So to be clear, I'm being deliberately mean about the route, as I think people generally over egg the quality etc of new lines they climb and I'm comfortable enough with having climbed some really good new routes to try and conservatively appraise the quality of new routes.
The crimps are actually bomber for the amount of weight you put through them. There was no glue or anything put on these. The bit that makes it dangerous is the snappy feet. Your feet are in dishes similar to nesscliffe, but they haven't formed into proper worn dishes like nesscliffe, so things can pop a bit. Above the crux there were holds that actually moved, but I've glued these with the BMC runny glue and they are now okayish for bodyweight.
As a direct finish it is very good and the climbing is top draw. I suppose it's similar quality of line to greatness?
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Now this has its own thread maybe we can get a list of those outcrop routes that have genuinely hard climbing free from the miasma of the E grade. A couple that haven’t been mentioned are Captain Invincible at Burbage, Toxic Bilberries at Wilton, Transform and Purgatory at back Bowden
This would be a fun list I reckon! To pick a few from Franco's post that'd fit the criteria and add a few grades to the ones you suggested:
- Hard cheese, ~8c
- Barron greenback, I think Pete said it was around 8b?
- Nothing Lasts, was it Ned or Dan V who suggested ~8A?
- Captain Invincible, ~8b
- Captain Invincible, ~8b
- Toxic Bilberries
- Transcendence (I assume you meant this, dont think there's a route called Transform at Bowden), ~7C+ or 8b
- Purgatory, ~8A+
No one I've put on Nothing Lasts has thought it 8a. Varian reckoned the crux move was font 7b+ and that's varian...The only person I've seen do the crux on a rope is him actually and I've put a lot of people on it. There's not loads of difference in sport grade between nothing lasts and greatness for example I dont think (although I'm starting to talk rubbish at this point). I think these French grades are all fairly useless, as hardly anyone has been on more than a couple of these routes and some people's 8b+s seem easier than other people's 8a+s.
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8A means Font 8A not French 8a, if that clears up the confusion?
Re Kilnsey I wasn't talking about Franco.
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Ah right, I doubt varian would have said 8A for Nothing Lasts?
Would love to hear if ned has been on it and thought that. I'd guess slightly easier for the individual moves, but it could be. It's incredibly sketch climbing too.
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I should clarify I have no clue what Dan or Ned have said about it.
Entirely feasible for multiple 7B+ sections/moves to add up to 8A though if you grade for the whole route (often a problem on power endurance routes where people say the hardest boulder is for example "7A", but what they really mean is anything from 6C to 7C depending on whether the grades are for single moves or a 20 move sequence). Long 8A = about 8b+ (close enough anyway) which sounds like it might fit with a broad comparison to GreatNess Wall? (Obviously with all the usual caveats about route grades making little sense, boulder grades making even less sense, style being hard to account for etc.)
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?
According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?
Not sure if you missed this Andy?
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?
According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?
Not sure if you missed this Andy?
You made your point, Adam.
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“Anyway... This doesn't have to be very mysterious for those of you wondering- it's about 45 mins from the A1 next time you're heading north”
Franco, I’m keen to come and look at stuff up your way . Problem now is there are too many to check out. And most of them look to necky. Fall theory (which I thought amazing) highlighted how bouncy you are for decking out
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?
According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?
Not sure if you missed this Andy?
I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.
In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?
According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?
Not sure if you missed this Andy?
I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.
In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade
Just like Franco then apart from he didnt have lots of people trying his routes.
Give the lad a rest….
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?
According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?
Not sure if you missed this Andy?
I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.
In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade
Just like Franco then apart from he didnt have lots of people trying his routes.
Give the lad a rest….
Apart from all the sport experience and actually doing things more than 30 miles from where I live put up by other people, yes identical
And you're the one dragging it out Adam. Give it a break, it's boring.
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?
According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?
Not sure if you missed this Andy?
I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.
In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade
Just like Franco then apart from he didnt have lots of people trying his routes.
Give the lad a rest….
Apart from all the sport experience and actually doing things more than 30 miles from where I live put up by other people, yes identical
And you're the one dragging it out Adam. Give it a break, it's boring.
Yeah you’re boring me now as well. You’ve had this bone with him for years. Maybe concentrate on your own life instead.
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Franco, thanks for being willing to enter the discussion, means more than discussing what routes you haven't climbed IMO.
You seem to have a lot of pads in insta photos (no criticism). Can you give us a breakdown of difficulty and when and where you can't fall. I.e. font X to hooks could fall/jump safely for X amount of this section then font X to the top (presumably with very dangerous fall).
What do you think about equilibrium as somewhat similar. Font 7c+ with a nasty fall in to the arete at the top of that section followed by an easier but thin and technical section with a bad ground fall?
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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)
When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?
According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?
Not sure if you missed this Andy?
I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.
In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade
Just like Franco then apart from he didnt have lots of people trying his routes.
Give the lad a rest….
Apart from all the sport experience and actually doing things more than 30 miles from where I live put up by other people, yes identical
And you're the one dragging it out Adam. Give it a break, it's boring.
Yeah you’re boring me now as well. You’ve had this bone with him for years. Maybe concentrate on your own life instead.
I’m wondering who really has issues here.
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The fall is pretty bad off any of it. You start off a ledge on the right and do a no hands traverse along a rail. This is British 6cish (if you can grade no hands stuff) and really cool (the start to Sky burial). Michaela described the original sky burial as two amazing (and not the difficult) comp boulder problems with a no hands rest inbetween. Shame the block fell of the top crux. This start bit is highball height, but you'd take a minging bashy fall if you fell off. You then get to a very good rest at the junction with the new section of climbing.
The next 9 hand movements are almost all of the challenge of the route. If you fall off here you're screwed. The hooks are close by, but having pulled much better hooks, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hold. I'm struggling to think of a peak equivalent to the fall, but maybe something like falling off the top of end of the affair with no gear? Or from the top crux of knocking on heavens door? I can't really picture those landings perfectly, but it's definitely really bad news. The mats are there as the ground is interspersed with rocks and I hoped they'd bounce me out, rather than limbs getting caught in the brambles, mud and rocks. Me and Tom have wondered about whether you could survive a fall, but falling is our core skill. If one of these people who was actually good at climbing fell off that, with all their muscles stopping their limbs rotating properly, I'd be amazed if they weren't in hospital with multiple broken bones or dead. There is also a subsidiary cliff below this one (that's why I had a 3rd rope with Tom jumping off the ledge). I reckoned I could probably stop before this, but if you didnt, that's another 20m drop. Death gets talked about a lot in climbing, which again is usually hyperbole, but I can't think of many things with a worse fall.
I don't know the breakdown of that crux section. I probably havent done a boulder problem in a few years. I've done some stuff in the county like Antihydral and some of the other high font 7s on tiny crimps and it's harder than them, but they're kind of easy if you have good skin... I suppose some of the best stuff for me to use as benchmarks are the routes that I've linked on top rope. It's defo harder climbing than anything I've been on on peak grit for example (except maybe the groove, which I failed on, but then it was really hot...)
I've never been on equilibrium, but I watched someone top rope it the other week. From a rope work perspective, it looked eminently safe for a ground up, if you slung that bottom boulder and had a running belay. Can't comment on the climbing like. Sounds hard.
Sorry. None of that is very useful. I had intended on repeating some routes before now, as i have a few dialled, but the weather didnt play ball. Hopefully Steve will go for another look. That's what we really need!
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Now this has its own thread maybe we can get a list of those outcrop routes that have genuinely hard climbing free from the miasma of the E grade. A couple that haven’t been mentioned are Captain Invincible at Burbage, Toxic Bilberries at Wilton, Transform and Purgatory at back Bowden
This would be a fun list I reckon! To pick a few from Franco's post that'd fit the criteria and add a few grades to the ones you suggested:
- Hard cheese, ~8c
- Barron greenback, I think Pete said it was around 8b?
- Nothing Lasts, was it Ned or Dan V who suggested ~8A?
- Captain Invincible, ~8b
- Captain Invincible, ~8b
- Toxic Bilberries
- Transcendence (I assume you meant this, dont think there's a route called Transform at Bowden), ~7C+ or 8b
- Purgatory, ~8A+
Toxic Bilberries... I can elaborate on this having put quite a bit time into it over the years. Essentially F7B+ (50/50 full on morpho dyno for small crimp) with a fall that could go all ways depending on if you catch the edge and pop, or miss it entirely, and your trajectory after. Busted ankle on ledge or upside down deckage into banking or gear rip deck or nice friendly swing across face.
After the boulder problem, another 7A/+ boulder and then a rather scary run for the top, with nasty tech 6a rock over to safety. Gaz suggested at the time F8a+/8b as a route.
E8 7a in the guide.
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The fall is pretty bad off any of it. You start off a ledge on the right and do a no hands traverse along a rail. This is British 6cish (if you can grade no hands stuff) and really cool (the start to Sky burial). Michaela described the original sky burial as two amazing (and not the difficult) comp boulder problems with a no hands rest inbetween. Shame the block fell of the top crux. This start bit is highball height, but you'd take a minging bashy fall if you fell off. You then get to a very good rest at the junction with the new section of climbing.
The next 9 hand movements are almost all of the challenge of the route. If you fall off here you're screwed. The hooks are close by, but having pulled much better hooks, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hold. I'm struggling to think of a peak equivalent to the fall, but maybe something like falling off the top of end of the affair with no gear? Or from the top crux of knocking on heavens door? I can't really picture those landings perfectly, but it's definitely really bad news. The mats are there as the ground is interspersed with rocks and I hoped they'd bounce me out, rather than limbs getting caught in the brambles, mud and rocks. Me and Tom have wondered about whether you could survive a fall, but falling is our core skill. If one of these people who was actually good at climbing fell off that, with all their muscles stopping their limbs rotating properly, I'd be amazed if they weren't in hospital with multiple broken bones or dead. There is also a subsidiary cliff below this one (that's why I had a 3rd rope with Tom jumping off the ledge). I reckoned I could probably stop before this, but if you didnt, that's another 20m drop. Death gets talked about a lot in climbing, which again is usually hyperbole, but I can't think of many things with a worse fall.
I don't know the breakdown of that crux section. I probably havent done a boulder problem in a few years. I've done some stuff in the county like Antihydral and some of the other high font 7s on tiny crimps and it's harder than them, but they're kind of easy if you have good skin... I suppose some of the best stuff for me to use as benchmarks are the routes that I've linked on top rope. It's defo harder climbing than anything I've been on on peak grit for example (except maybe the groove, which I failed on, but then it was really hot...)
I've never been on equilibrium, but I watched someone top rope it the other week. From a rope work perspective, it looked eminently safe for a ground up, if you slung that bottom boulder and had a running belay. Can't comment on the climbing like. Sounds hard.
Sorry. None of that is very useful. I had intended on repeating some routes before now, as i have a few dialled, but the weather didnt play ball. Hopefully Steve will go for another look. That's what we really need!
Thanks for that Franco, sounds an impressive achievement regardless of grade.
I've always been a fan of the E+tech grade system but it's not really enough for these arm chair debates. Despite the fervor I thought Gresham did a decent job of breaking down Lexicon. V8 into V9 or 8c with a low percentage move at the top. Also how if this move was more predictable it might be a grade easier and obviously the long fall with an unknown outcome.
Now the (terrifying looking fall) has been taken maybe we will see a downgrade in the future but his explanation of the thought process seems logical to me. Personally I don't think being out by one grade is particularly unexpected especially on a necky trad route.
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The crux moves of Lexicon are a lot easier than Immortal. In the ballpark of 4 boulder grades different I'd say for my height. There are lots of other challenges with Lexicon, so that doesn't mean Lexicon is easy or hard or anything. But if you're just interested in the moves, there's no comparison.
That's part of the reason I don't think too much breakdown is useful. Do we really know what we mean when someone says 'a f7B+ or 8A move' on Trad route? It sounds like a benchmarked and well-defined thing, but really those two grades might be used by the same climber about the same route, just on a different day, or talking about something subtly different.
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That’s the nature of bouldering grades overall though isn’t it, not just on trad routes, you can have a 15 move 7C or a one move 7C, both are 7C. There shouldn’t be much inaccuracy in this as long as people are talking about the same thing.
As per your example, I can imagine that Lexicon has a longer crux sequence so the individual moves could well be several grades easier than those on Immortal. I would assume if the whole crux sequence was in fact 4 boulder grades easier than the one you had completed a short while earlier, you would have popped up for a casual 3rd ascent.
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So to summarise, Immortal has a crux sequence of 7C+/8A (harder than all the high 7 boulders you've done in the county), on snappy Rock, with guaranteed death or unthinkable injuries if you fall.
I mean it sounds like the real deal, and is surely a huge step up from all other trad routes in the country. Is there anything else claimed with that level of seriousness and difficulty?
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So to summarise, Immortal has a crux sequence of 7C+/8A, on snappy Rock, with guaranteed death or unthinkable injuries if you fall.
Is there anything else claimed with that level of seriousness and difficulty?
Sounds like Indian Face but with a font 7C+/8A crux instead of font 7A/7B.
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So to summarise, Immortal has a crux sequence of 7C+/8A (harder than all the high 7 boulders you've done in the county), on snappy Rock, with guaranteed death or unthinkable injuries if you fall.
I mean it sounds like the real deal, and is surely a huge step up from all other trad routes in the country. Is there anything else claimed with that level of seriousness and difficulty?
When put like that it sounds pretty astonishing tbh. Echo Wall? That wasn't described as snappy though and dunno what the Crux sequence got.
Edit: obvs a mountain route mind, can't think of anything like that which is "outcrop-y"
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I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourself. I'm rubbish at bouldering and even worse at grading problems. It could be anywhere from 7a -8b. Most of us in the Moors climb about 7c, so my general approach is to think it might be a bit harder if my regular partners can't do it. We're only talking in this very specific type of climbing, with absolute rat crimps. Sam Mark's burnt me off on a woodie pinch problem the other day that was probably about 7a+. General standards are not high! But then maybe putting up really hard trad routes with no strength should be a badge of honour? Haha
It is notably not a solo also. Whilst the hooks would probably rip, they added a bit to being able to go for it. And all those other routes mentioned don't boil down to a mere few meters of climbing. It would defo be harder than E11 if it was at the top of cloggy.
Here's a photo of the start of the landing with Tom Randal on the no hands bit. Immortal goes past the 'eye' in the top of the photo.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pMbA_629BUg/VwdYPmvaWGI/AAAAAAAAC_Q/wGdz3nqVv8UE4Q3FjnHAwSIwvF4UAY25Q/s1600/IMAG1573.jpg
Here's one with more general hillside scenes. You can just about make out me belaying below Tom, which is just above the landing from Immortal:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X90zAaJuMOw/VwdYadfzg2I/AAAAAAAAC_Y/XtWbbdjhMM09QyQfu_8STI_hblTKFiRZQ/s1600/IMAG1581.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Y78JSb2lfJM/U3qTkNWtm2I/AAAAAAAACqc/YJgsIY_DWXA/s1600/IMG_20140513_141451.jpg
Here's one of the wall before I cleaned the loose rock off:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qzSbpaHHhUM/UxDNqODEyOI/AAAAAAAACfs/AP5SQfrpbQ8/s1600/gold+4.jpg
The view from below the 3rd cliff
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-B--ro53X8t8/U5ofZpachvI/AAAAAAAACrY/xA54N3uGIL4/s1600/IMG_20140612_105417.jpg
And a final one just showing what a lush buttress it actually is
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R6yVwCvj1vQ/U5ofYE0eGsI/AAAAAAAACrM/sZuNz7K7aYE/s1600/IMG_20140612_105513.jpg
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I don't think anyone is getting ahead of themselves, you said with quite a lot of confidence that it's harder than all of the high 7 boulders you've done of a similar style, how is that not saying that it's at least 7C+/8A ish? You've also pretty categorically said that it's going to be a simply terrible fall where death is a distinct possibility. I don't think it's surprising that people are paying quite a lot of attention to those details, it really does make it sound like one of the hardest routes of its style that's been claimed.
Someone above mentioned why you hadn't made a swift repeat of Lexicon, but I guess it's just a different style that's not your forte? I.e. Pumpy sustained climbing to get to the relatively easy crux, rather than desperate crux from a good rest?
P. S. Please don't do the whole self deprecating "I'm rubbish and weak" thing that some brits seem so partial to, it's a bit tedious!
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I'm not self deprecating, just honest I hope. I'm mint at falling off things that other people would knack themselves on. I'm also pretty good at working dangerous things to death and then doing them, staying calm and having a quasi religious belief in my calling to climb them. I am however acutely aware at how strong the standard is thesedays. Outside of hanging rat crimps and using footwork to get my weight off my hands, I'm really terrible. Particularly pinch, sloper, steep stuff, core, heels, toe hooks. I think it's important for me to point this out, because I want to climb in more popular places and don't want people to see me having a mare on raindogs or something and be like "these Moors routes must be all over-graded". It is important to me that people are interested in the hard Trad routes in the North East and that they don't just get dismissed because some of us are really weak.
I haven't done loads of hard bouldering. I've done a handful of things that people graded 8Aish that are generally not considered 8A by many people who have done them. I'm not saying this thing is 7C+ or any other grade. There are some very weird moves on it. I felt more confident the crux hand move on Nothing Lasts was 7cish, but I've never done moves like the ones on Immortal. I hope you don't think I'm trying to dodge the question, but you have a move which is a lateral move, conditions dependent, dependent on how good your skin is, your body length and how much weight you trust putting through your feet. It's got to be one of the hardest things to grade ever. I feel like one of these 9a type climbers who didnt like rats could get on it and think it was 8B. But then I think an 8A boulderer could get on it and think it was 7C. If you look at the debates about Antihydral, that gets from below 7b to 8a, depending on who you talk to and those are conventional moves that are easy to grade.
If you're saying that I said this thing was hard and really dangerous. Yes, I 100% stand by that. Please will someone just go and ab it!
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The face on the arête in that first photo is very cool.
This post adds nothing of value to the discussion.
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Toxic Bilberries... I can elaborate on this having put quite a bit time into it over the years. Essentially F7B+ (50/50 full on morpho dyno for small crimp) with a fall that could go all ways depending on if you catch the edge and pop, or miss it entirely, and your trajectory after. Busted ankle on ledge or upside down deckage into banking or gear rip deck or nice friendly swing across face.
After the boulder problem, another 7A/+ boulder and then a rather scary run for the top, with nasty tech 6a rock over to safety. Gaz suggested at the time F8a+/8b as a route.
E8 7a in the guide.
Ace detail, thanks Probes! I've struggled to find much on Toxic Bilberries (admittedly having not looked very hard!) so cool to hear some first hand detail.
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lexicon. I went there for a look the day Steve was there and led it, which obviously dominated the day. I had a really quick go on it at the end of the day. Probably less than 15 mins. I just had to climb without resting or warming up properly as everyone wanted to leave, so it was basically climb up to the break. Sit on the rope. Do the move above the break that's easier for the tall. Fall off the move to the sloper above. Then do that. Then spent about 5 mins on the top couple of moves which I figured out a different sequence which is probably easier for the tall again. I've been watching the weather ever since, but it's just stayed rubbish. Well keen to get back. I'm sure the climbing below would add difficulty with pump etc. And the fall is large. Also, I like to give any route at least half a dozen sessions, as I hate scraping up stuff.
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Thanks for taking the time to go through the details Franco, appreciate how open you've been about it.
I don't think anyone is getting ahead of themselves, you said with quite a lot of confidence that it's harder than all of the high 7 boulders you've done of a similar style, how is that not saying that it's at least 7C+/8A ish? You've also pretty categorically said that it's going to be a simply terrible fall where death is a distinct possibility.
Grading FAs is hard enough at the best of times, and Franco's admitted he's not a particularly well rounded climber so even if he's confident it felt hard for him I think a healthy dose of "let's see what repeaters think" is warranted.
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P. S. Please don't do the whole self deprecating "I'm rubbish and weak" thing that some brits seem so partial to, it's a bit tedious!
My impression from climbing with Franco a tiny bit about a decade ago is that he actually is quite rubbish and weak in many styles (no offence Franco - :wave:), but that he is also very good in his style. Which is why I don’t doubt that his moors routes in a style which suits him are hard.
Whether they are quite the grades which have been claimed is something which I’m not qualified to opine on. I think we will only know that once they’ve had some repeats - which in fairness is more or less what Franco himself has said.