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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: James Malloch on May 09, 2022, 10:35:47 am
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I’d love to be able to touch my toes. I think it will help me with some recurring running injuries but also for AcroYoga as it would really help to be able to hold my legs straight up above my hips (when lying down).
I’m really bad in this respect. Like I can get to about 45 degrees with back and legs both straight. I go through phases of stretching regularly but I’m currently at the end of a spell of not doing anything…
I remember Ollie (from lattice) saying he could get me touching my toes in a month but I never followed up. I think this would have involved a lot of PNF stretching.
Any good daily routines or tips would be appreciated. If I doing manage it on this trip then I never will!
Ideally I’d prefer something that isn’t Yoga as I never really enjoy classes that much even though I know it’s good for you!
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I know you said not yoga but have you looked at yoga with Adrienne on YouTube? There are 10 minute quick hits through to full on sessions that are tailored to different things including stretches for runners. If you know what it is that is inhibiting your ability to get down there then that would help - you may know this, I'm not sure how easy it is to work out. My ruined hips mean I can't do full yoga but I take some of the stretches that work for me from those videos and do them in isolation.
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Check out Tom Merrick (Bodyweight Warrior) (https://www.youtube.com/c/BodyweightWarrior/videos) on YouTube. His follow along videos have been really effective for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ymjw7TSzrE
One piece of advice is that it takes some time to learn to stretch. Really make some commitment to stick with it even though it feels like a chore, and at some point you might develop the habit and actually find it enjoyable (for me this took well over a month, but it did happen).
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2 years ago I'd never stretched in my life and couldn't come close to touching my toes! Now, at 32, I can put my palms on the floor and almost do a full forward fold. Like with most things, consistency plays a major part and you want to be doing at least a small amount of stretching almost every day. I made it a part of my evening routine.
This has been my go-to for daily stretching the hamstrings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrF2iMnn09w
Although you should be aware that this bent leg position isolates the hamstrings and folding forwards stretches more than just this muscle. I train my forward folds loaded holding a 5kg weight with feet elevated (Jefferson curls). I feel loaded stretching made the biggest difference for me after introducing it but should be done less frequently.
Also agree with the Tom Merrick recommendation above
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Just did that Tom Merrick follow along that Joel posted, suspect it's going to be too hard if you can't touch your toes yet.
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Just did that Tom Merrick follow along that Joel posted, suspect it's going to be too hard if you can't touch your toes yet.
Likewise I've used his other videos and I've found they're too hard for where I am with flexibility (not a good place). It's been something I've neglected for years; I used to play squash competitively and was really flexible and just relied on that which declined over time (I don't play anymore) and then I spent a portion of time with an Illizarov frame on and that really finished me off.
I've been trying to consistently used the Lattice follow-along flexibility videos (with a bit of a Covid gap) but I'm still struggling with progress towards my toes.
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My top tip would be: stop trying to touch your toes! It's kind of a weird compound movement and often you end up straining your back more than stretching your hamstrings (which are usually the problem). To lengthen hamstrings, try the following.
1) Sit on your bum with your legs straight in front of you. Now, shuffle backwards across the room keeping your legs locked straight and body as upright as possible. Often after 1 rep of this you'll be noticeably closer to touching your toes, it's like magic.
2) Do forward folds but keep your whole back straight, bend at the hips, bum sticking out, and rather than touching your toes, touch your ears and stick your elbows out - hold for 30s.
I never used to be able to touch my toes but can do so easily with combining the above a couple of times a week, plus a few other yoga bits.
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Thanks for all the advice! I’ll give some of them a go tomorrow!
1) Sit on your bum with your legs straight in front of you. Now, shuffle backwards across the room keeping your legs locked straight and body as upright as possible. Often after 1 rep of this you'll be noticeably closer to touching your toes, it's like magic.
For this one, would you just be super active or use hands to assist the movement? I can’t sit upright with legs out straight. Not even close with body upright…
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My top tip, in two parts:
1) Hamstring (and hip) stretches can benefit a lot from longer holds — think at least a minute, maybe 3-5 minutes if you want to go full Yin Yoga style. Find a pose that requires minimal muscle tension to hold (e.g. sitting or lying on the floor), then don’t over-strain, just go to the point where you feel a bit of a stretch happening, then hang out there and breathe and chill for a while. You might find that after a minute or so things “unlock” a bit and you can go deeper into the stretch. Don’t be afraid to fidget about, adjust the pose to see what feels best, go a bit deeper or back off as needed; there is no law that you have to stay perfectly still.
2) Sitting or reclining hamstring (and hip) stretches are pretty excellent for watching DVDs/YouTube/iPlayer/whatever. Just stick a pillow or block under your head if you’re lying on your back, so you can see the screen. This makes long holds much, much less boring, and stops you twitching and looking at your watch every 5 seconds, and also increases motivation to do your stretches because then it becomes the time you get to watch that TV programme you meant to get around to.
I owe my front splits largely to a box set of The Wire (not a joke).
Secondary tip: experiment with having at least a micro-bend in your knees.
Even if/when you can touch your toes with your legs locked straight, unlocking them a fraction can help get the stretch happening in the muscle belly rather than straining the hamstring attachment to your sitz bones, which hurts and takes ages to heal (do not recommend).
Other secondary tip: improvise a “yoga belt” with a regular belt, a sling, a metre or two of worn-out rope, a resistance band, whatever. When you’re doing reclining stretches, use it to hook your foot and pull it gently towards you. Even if you can reach your foot without it, the belt lets you do so while keeping your back very flat, and without straining or tensing stuff.
This again contributes to the ability to chill and breathe, which has a huge effect on allowing you to relax and your nervous system to decide that you’re not about to pull yourself apart and that therefore it doesn’t need to contract your muscles protectively to prevent injury.
I believe the science increasingly suggests that a lot of stretching is not about tissue changes but about the nervous system being conditioned to accept that a wider range of motion can be safe and okay.
Which is why building strength at the extremes of your current range of motion can also help, because it builds that experience of having stability and control in that end-range (and also is really really handy for anything like climbing where you really need to have strength and control while your joints might be in quite extreme positions) .
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Thanks for all the advice! I’ll give some of them a go tomorrow!
1) Sit on your bum with your legs straight in front of you. Now, shuffle backwards across the room keeping your legs locked straight and body as upright as possible. Often after 1 rep of this you'll be noticeably closer to touching your toes, it's like magic.
For this one, would you just be super active or use hands to assist the movement? I can’t sit upright with legs out straight. Not even close with body upright…
Try not to use your hands to assist the movement, and just stay as upright as possible. I presume you can sit on your bum with your legs straight without using your hands? Just sit as upright as possible from your default position (get your belly button closer to your toes) and then start shufflin'. It's very ungainly but it seems to do the trick.
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I think it will help me with some recurring running injuries
Depending on the injuries, if done incorrectly, it could make them worse. What's the issues? (maybe one for the runners)
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Thanks for all the advice! I’ll give some of them a go tomorrow!
1) Sit on your bum with your legs straight in front of you. Now, shuffle backwards across the room keeping your legs locked straight and body as upright as possible. Often after 1 rep of this you'll be noticeably closer to touching your toes, it's like magic.
For this one, would you just be super active or use hands to assist the movement? I can’t sit upright with legs out straight. Not even close with body upright…
Try not to use your hands to assist the movement, and just stay as upright as possible. I presume you can sit on your bum with your legs straight without using your hands? Just sit as upright as possible from your default position (get your belly button closer to your toes) and then start shufflin'. It's very ungainly but it seems to do the trick.
I’ll give it a go, thanks!
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I think it will help me with some recurring running injuries
Depending on the injuries, if done incorrectly, it could make them worse. What's the issues? (maybe one for the runners)
I can’t remember the exact thing, but it was a build up of fluid in the knee due to bad form. Hamstrings were one thing I needed to work on though (so I should have been doing them for ages already :chair:)
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Slightly off-topic but in case it's useful, I can confirm that being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
OTOH it's a fairly pleasant stretch, it is directly measurable, and I agree with the common sense advice above of starting gently, doing it regularly, doing longer holds etc.
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Slightly off-topic but in case it's useful, I can confirm that being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
OTOH it's a fairly pleasant stretch, it is directly measurable, and I agree with the common sense advice above of starting gently, doing it regularly, doing longer holds etc.
Definitely not for climbing use for me - it’s to basically do this photo.
I’m very much like the bottom half of the photo and holding someone there is super hard for me. If I could make a nice L shape with vertical legs, so much more would become possible to do/try.
(https://i.ibb.co/vmbNcgt/5-D37-DBB7-190-C-4-D46-8-C6-D-5-A2051-BD2-A53.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
vietnamese characters (https://usefulwebtool.com/)
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Well that's a cool aim :2thumbsup:
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I can’t remember the exact thing, but it was a build up of fluid in the knee due to bad form.
Bursitis?
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Slightly off-topic but in case it's useful, I can confirm that being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
OTOH it's a fairly pleasant stretch, it is directly measurable, and I agree with the common sense advice above of starting gently, doing it regularly, doing longer holds etc.
On my current boulder project, from a sort of iron cross position on 2 distant gastons, I do a high front kick with an almost straight leg to get my foot near my hand, which I can then turn into a deep drop knee making the next move (possibly the redpoint crux) more secure. I've never seen anyone else do it this way and I don't think you'd be able to without good pike flexibility and hip flexor strength. Admittedly this is a rare move, but it's one of the best moves i've done on rock and might make the difference on getting up the thing!
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I owe my front splits largely to a box set of The Wire (not a joke).
I’ve just been getting into stretching recently as thanks to long covid I can’t do anything else that you could remotely classify as training. A bit of consistency has seen me go from just touching toes to putting all my fingers on the floor in front of me, with the full palm touch not that far off. So progression is pretty quick and suitably satisfying. But now I’m thinking of more ambitious aims… roughly how long/how much effort did it take to get your front splits?
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Just did a first 20 min session. Did some of the bum shuffling, bending with hands to ears (really helps keep back straight) and finished with 13 mins of feet up against the back of the van whilst watching a video.
Awful photo but definitely feeling better after that one session. Bum is still slightly off the ground.
(https://i.ibb.co/M67t57q/60671-BF2-6-B7-D-48-CF-9-CC8-E536548-A2-E4-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NSKJnKw)
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Slightly off-topic but in case it's useful, I can confirm that being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
OTOH it's a fairly pleasant stretch, it is directly measurable, and I agree with the common sense advice above of starting gently, doing it regularly, doing longer holds etc.
Definitely not for climbing use for me - it’s to basically do this photo.
I’m very much like the bottom half of the photo and holding someone there is super hard for me. If I could make a nice L shape with vertical legs, so much more would become possible to do/try.
(https://i.ibb.co/vmbNcgt/5-D37-DBB7-190-C-4-D46-8-C6-D-5-A2051-BD2-A53.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
vietnamese characters (https://usefulwebtool.com/)
I'd say reclining hamstring stretch using a strap could be very useful for you -- it's a great stretch anyway, easy to modify for wherever your current level of flexibility is, and relates most directly to the position you're trying to work towards.
This, basically:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Of03DkVMA
You can keep the passive leg straight or bend it and put the sole of the foot flat on the floor, whatever feels most comfortable.
Also forgot to say that it's all easier if you do it when you're warmed up rather than "cold".
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I owe my front splits largely to a box set of The Wire (not a joke).
I’ve just been getting into stretching recently as thanks to long covid I can’t do anything else that you could remotely classify as training. A bit of consistency has seen me go from just touching toes to putting all my fingers on the floor in front of me, with the full palm touch not that far off. So progression is pretty quick and suitably satisfying. But now I’m thinking of more ambitious aims… roughly how long/how much effort did it take to get your front splits?
Hard to remember because it was ages ago, but I'd say that most of the progress happened over a year. However, that was the year of my Epic Psychiatric Misadventures ("freak neurochemical reaction" are never words you want to hear ...) so a fair amount of that time was spent stuck in a hospital room with fuck-all to do except watch "The Wire" while doing yoga. So it's a bit hard to work out how that'd translate into time/effort in ordinary life!
Side note: worth remembering that front splits isn't just about the hamstring stretch on the front leg, it's also about opening the hip flexors on the back leg, so make sure you've got some stretches for that too. You can build a really little nice routine with things like pigeon and janu sirsasana which work those different components (and get some bonus hip rotation as well).
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Thanks for that s_h, and also thanks to everyone else who posted clips. Plenty to go at! Seems like this might take some time…
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being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
This is just the sort of thing that people who either can’t remember what it’s like to have really tight hamstrings and lower back or have never been that tight in those areas say. It’s directly related to how high you can lift your feet up so has a huge impact on how hard you can climb.
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Yeah I might have been speaking in biased absolutes (it is the current fashion though....), partly based on having always been able to get at least middle knuckles to toes from cold, and feeling exactly zero benefit for climbing / climbing flexibility. Incidentally I tried proper glute / hip stretching for the first time in months yesterday, and I whilst I could get middle knuckles to toes from cold, I was bloody rubbish at glutes / hips - something which I've definitely noticed has made me feel a bit awkward and restricted on some climbing recently.
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This is just the sort of thing that people who either can’t remember what it’s like to have really tight hamstrings and lower back or have never been that tight in those areas say. It’s directly related to how high you can lift your feet up so has a huge impact on how hard you can climb.
Standard n=1 but I have awful hamstring flexibilty and can't touch my toes but can get my feet extremely high... I always mean to work on my hamstrings but never quite find the motivation!
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being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
This is just the sort of thing that people who either can’t remember what it’s like to have really tight hamstrings and lower back or have never been that tight in those areas say. It’s directly related to how high you can lift your feet up so has a huge impact on how hard you can climb.
I can happily get hands flat on the ground with my legs straight but am comically bad at getting my feet high or opening my hips past 90degs. Go figure....
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being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
This is just the sort of thing that people who either can’t remember what it’s like to have really tight hamstrings and lower back or have never been that tight in those areas say. It’s directly related to how high you can lift your feet up so has a huge impact on how hard you can climb.
I can happily get hands flat on the ground with my legs straight but am comically bad at getting my feet high or opening my hips past 90degs. Go figure....
Those are multiple different things, though. You’ve got passive range of motion (touching your toes, where gravity’s helping pull you down) and active range of motion (how much you can use your hip flexors to lift your leg relative to your torso). Your active range can’t be more than your passive, for obvious reasons, but just having the passive flexibility by itself won’t give you the active control.
Then opening your hips out to the side in the “frog” position is external hip rotation and nothing to do with your hamstrings.
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This is just the sort of thing that people who either can’t remember what it’s like to have really tight hamstrings and lower back or have never been that tight in those areas say. It’s directly related to how high you can lift your feet up so has a huge impact on how hard you can climb.
Standard n=1 but I have awful hamstring flexibilty and can't touch my toes but can get my feet extremely high... I always mean to work on my hamstrings but never quite find the motivation!
Me too.
Stepping up does not meaningfully depend on hamstring flexibility. Even when I was doing yoga 3 or 4 times a week, my hamstring flexibility was poor. I can sit comfortably in lotus though and hip flexibility correlates massively with stepping up and getting centre of gravity in to the wall. That is useful. Hamstrings, not so much.
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I have to say that if I was on a once in a lifetime trip to Spain I'd be more worried about touching tufas than toes.
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Me too.
Stepping up does not meaningfully depend on hamstring flexibility. Even when I was doing yoga 3 or 4 times a week, my hamstring flexibility was poor. I can sit comfortably in lotus though and hip flexibility correlates massively with stepping up and getting centre of gravity in to the wall. That is useful. Hamstrings, not so much.
I'm quite similar to this - 20 odd years of regular yoga and my hamstring flexibility still sucks (can get both feet behind my head at the same time though so guess my hips are pretty open)
One thing i have found is that Chair Pose is a great way of activating the hamstrings and prepping them for straight legged forward folds (for me at least). Seems to really help wake them up and open them up.
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"the stretches that are most effective are the ones you do" : i would watch TV/Youtube on my computer, stand in front of it, one foot on the table, stretching !
this works better if you have done some sort of activity just before (climbing/walking/cycling, anything that has git some blood flowing through your legs)
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People saying you have awful hamstring flexibility.... I need figures. For example, I'm about 11 inches from touching my toes atm. Glad to hear though this won't affect my high stepping :beer2:
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Thanks for that s_h, and also thanks to everyone else who posted clips. Plenty to go at! Seems like this might take some time…
Yeah, but that's what makes it brilliant when (for whatever reason) you can't do other forms of training, so you can still have a big juicy ambitious goal and see steady progress towards it.
Getting full front splits is ultimately just a party trick (unless you're a gymnast or dancer or something that requires perfect front splits), but the increase in hamstring and hip flexor range of motion you get along the way is very worthwhile, IMHO.
And it is a pretty great party trick.
Also, might just be me, but I find the Yin-style long holds really good for de-stressing when I’m feeling frazzled, anxious or burnt-out.
So, cool goal, have fun with it!
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People saying you have awful hamstring flexibility.... I need figures. For example, I'm about 11 inches from touching my toes atm. Glad to hear though this won't affect my high stepping :beer2:
I always thought I had awful flexibility, but turns out I'm actually quite good!
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People saying you have awful hamstring flexibility.... I need figures. For example, I'm about 11 inches from touching my toes atm. Glad to hear though this won't affect my high stepping :beer2:
As mentioned in the heel hooking thread the other day, heel hooking is my biggest strength in climbing with high stepping not far behind.
Without warming up, my fingers can get just below my knees before my back and shoulders start to round. It takes about a full hour of intense yog for my finger tips to just about reach my toes with a straight back.
But my hips are very open, especially in external rotation: I can go deeper than anyone I know in stretches like pigeon pose, figure 4, lizard, cork screw, flying pigeon etc. I'm close to side splits having never put any work in to them.
External rotation, plus a little bit of glute strength and hip flexor strength are the key ingredients for high feet and high heels.
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I bet everyone who is particularly good at high feet has strong hip flexors.
Everyone loves tests, so try sitting on the floor in a straddle position (straight legs approximately 90 degrees apart), put both palms on the floor in front of you and lift your feet off the ground for 5 seconds. Move both hands forward to increase the difficulty and get a 5 second max. I think hands further forward than your knees is a good score and in line with your feet is equivalent to 1 arming the BM2K middle slot ;)
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People saying you have awful hamstring flexibility.... I need figures. For example, I'm about 11 inches from touching my toes atm. Glad to hear though this won't affect my high stepping :beer2:
As mentioned in the heel hooking thread the other day, heel hooking is my biggest strength in climbing with high stepping not far behind.
Without warming up, my fingers can get just below my knees before my back and shoulders start to round. It takes about a full hour of intense yog for my finger tips to just about reach my toes with a straight back.
But my hips are very open, especially in external rotation: I can go deeper than anyone I know in stretches like pigeon pose, figure 4, lizard, cork screw, flying pigeon etc. I'm close to side splits having never put any work in to them.
External rotation, plus a little bit of glute strength and hip flexor strength are the key ingredients for high feet and high heels.
You actually have very flexible hamstrings then if you can touch your toes with a straight back after warming up!
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being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
This is just the sort of thing that people who either can’t remember what it’s like to have really tight hamstrings and lower back or have never been that tight in those areas say. It’s directly related to how high you can lift your feet up so has a huge impact on how hard you can climb.
I can happily get hands flat on the ground with my legs straight but am comically bad at getting my feet high or opening my hips past 90degs. Go figure....
Those are multiple different things, though. You’ve got passive range of motion (touching your toes, where gravity’s helping pull you down) and active range of motion (how much you can use your hip flexors to lift your leg relative to your torso). Your active range can’t be more than your passive, for obvious reasons, but just having the passive flexibility by itself won’t give you the active control.
Then opening your hips out to the side in the “frog” position is external hip rotation and nothing to do with your hamstrings.
Forgot:
It's also a relevant point that the hamstrings are biarticulate (they cross two joints). So they have to stretch when you flex the hip OR when you extend the knee, and they have to stretch the most when you do both at the same time, e.g. trying to touch your toes with straight legs -- think of a rubber band being stretched from both ends.
High stepping generally happens with bent knees, so it's not going to demand as much hamstring flexibility, but is going to demand good hip flexor strength, and external hip rotation if you're stepping onto a foothold to the side of your body while keeping your hips in.
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… so try sitting on the floor in a straddle position (straight legs approximately 90 degrees apart), put both palms on the floor in front of you
Failed at the first hurdle 😂
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I bet everyone who is particularly good at high feet has strong hip flexors.
Everyone loves tests, so try sitting on the floor in a straddle position (straight legs approximately 90 degrees apart), put both palms on the floor in front of you and lift your feet off the ground for 5 seconds. Move both hands forward to increase the difficulty and get a 5 second max. I think hands further forward than your knees is a good score and in line with your feet is equivalent to 1 arming the BM2K middle slot ;)
Got hands level with about halfway down my shins (although similar to teestub sitting down was challenging!).
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Re: touching your toes. It's worth finding out what the limiting factor is. Lumbar flexion, hamstrings or possibly neural tension or hip flexion. Doing a hamstring flexibility test will be helpful. Google it. It's then worthwhile trying to find out why your lumbar flexion or hamstrings might be that way.
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Re: touching your toes. It's worth finding out what the limiting factor is. Lumbar flexion, hamstrings or possibly neural tension or hip flexion. Doing a hamstring flexibility test will be helpful. Google it. It's then worthwhile trying to find out why your lumbar flexion or hamstrings might be that way.
Would you do this test cold? Or after any kind of warm up?
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A 5min warm-up - running on the spot, brisk walk, cycle etc.
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People saying you have awful hamstring flexibility.... I need figures. For example, I'm about 11 inches from touching my toes atm. Glad to hear though this won't affect my high stepping :beer2:
Really interesting topic. I have always had really poor flexibility here and have never been able to touch my toes. Assuming this is with feet close together I can reach my knee caps, around 22 inches short of my toes. I cant get close to sitting on floor with feet out in front of me and tend to use 1 or 2 yoga blocks if doing this.
I was going to make same point as slab happy. High steps with feet close to your body is pretty straightforward with poor hamstring flexibility but if you need to step high and out to the side gets harder. I remember Will Bosi posting video of an exercise he did for this where he stood facing a wall and tried to get his toes touching high and out to side - need hip and hamstring flexibility for this.
One thing I have wondered is it is important to try strengthen the hamstring as well as working on stretching? Is there a reason the muscle is such an issue for lots of people eg. the biarticulate nature slab happy mentions above?
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… so try sitting on the floor in a straddle position (straight legs approximately 90 degrees apart), put both palms on the floor in front of you
Failed at the first hurdle 😂
I failed too. I can sit with legs at about 80 degrees with legs and back straight. But I can't then reach the floor at all without my back hunching and/or or my legs bending.
I also tend to need 2 yoga blocks for most seated forward folds and still struggle to fold more than about 5 degrees in most positions without rounding/bending something. I find seated forward folds much harder than standing. It always feels like my hip flexors gripping is the problem. But they are strong in other positions so I suspect the feeling in the hip flexors is a symptom rather than the cause of the problem.
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One thing I have wondered is it is important to try strengthen the hamstring as well as working on stretching?
...and how do you specifically strengthen it? A load of running, or specific weight machines like that one where you lie on your belly and lift the weights by bending your knee (I expect it has a name).
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Bloody hell! Anyone who's so stiff that they can't sit on the floor with their legs straight would surely feel a lot better in their day to day life if they limber up a bit!
One thing I have wondered is it is important to try strengthen the hamstring as well as working on stretching?
...and how do you specifically strengthen it? A load of running, or specific weight machines like that one where you lie on your belly and lift the weights by bending your knee (I expect it has a name).
The last time hamstring strength was mentioned round these parts it's usefulness for climbing was debated, but I personally find it helpful for keeping feet on in stretched out positions on steep walls and roofs. This position uses the whole posterior chain but I tend to feel it most in my hamstrings and calves; I recall a boulder earlier this year where I was driving so hard through the toe that I had hamstring and calf DOMs for a week in that leg!
For traiming the hamstrings at home single leg glute bridges are good, and nordic curls for the more advanced.
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good old glute bridges. One I did faithfully when i injured hip, but haven't bothered since. And you should never miss the opportunity to nordic ;)
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Everyone loves tests, so try sitting on the floor in a straddle position (straight legs approximately 90 degrees apart), put both palms on the floor in front of you and lift your feet off the ground for 5 seconds.
Wow, firstly, I had to use some leeway in interpretation of "90 degrees" and secondly, lifting my feet sent my hip flexors into spasm.
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One thing I have wondered is it is important to try strengthen the hamstring as well as working on stretching?
...and how do you specifically strengthen it? A load of running, or specific weight machines like that one where you lie on your belly and lift the weights by bending your knee (I expect it has a name).
Ye more like the trendy eccentric exercises mentioned for football injury prevention/ recovery like those mentioned by Liam with glute bridging (think moving your heel further away uses hamstring more), heel slides where you kind of slowly slide your heel out and ye ultimately the nordics or some of their easier variations.
Ye wasnt really meaning strengthening hamstrings directly for climbing but more to make the muscle more functional/ stretchable/ less injury prone.
Your probably right Liam, I can manage just about if I have my legs quite wide apart but still more comfortable with a yoga block doing that. Definitely an area to improve!
I do sometimes wonder if certain biomechanical things contribute a bit. ie if you are tall imagine more of the extra height comes from longer legs than longer body ?
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I bet everyone who is particularly good at high feet has strong hip flexors.
Everyone loves tests, so try sitting on the floor in a straddle position (straight legs approximately 90 degrees apart), put both palms on the floor in front of you and lift your feet off the ground for 5 seconds. Move both hands forward to increase the difficulty and get a 5 second max. I think hands further forward than your knees is a good score and in line with your feet is equivalent to 1 arming the BM2K middle slot ;)
:wavecry:
Lifting my legs up with my hands at my knees was okay, but even an inch further down had my eyeballs rolling in their sockets as my quads did a spasm. What should I do about that?
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Ye wasnt really meaning strengthening hamstrings directly for climbing but more to make the muscle more functional/ stretchable/ less injury prone.
The recommendation I've heard when it comes to using strength training specifically to increase flexibility is to work on building strength and control in the end range of your current range of motion -- so the position where you're the furthest you can go in a stretch, and just before that (which is a range where muscles are generally very weak).
The rationale is that this encourages the nervous system to allow the range of motion to expand further because it feels "safe" (as opposed to reflexively contracting to prevent injury).
N.B. I am not a doctor or physio! But as I understand it: for example, if you were doing a supine hamstring stretch with a strap, i.e. lying on your back on the floor with one leg in the air and a strap or resistance band looped round your foot so you can pull your leg towards you, you could work on strength by:
pulling your leg towards you so you feel a stretch, then letting go and trying to keep your leg where it is
starting further away, and seeing if you can use the quads and hip flexors to pull the leg into that end position
while pulling your leg towards you with the band, contract the hamstrings so they're pulling your leg in the opposite direction
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My top tip, in two parts:
1) Hamstring (and hip) stretches can benefit a lot from longer holds — think at least a minute, maybe 3-5 minutes if you want to go full Yin Yoga style. Find a pose that requires minimal muscle tension to hold (e.g. sitting or lying on the floor), then don’t over-strain, just go to the point where you feel a bit of a stretch happening, then hang out there and breathe and chill for a while. You might find that after a minute or so things “unlock” a bit and you can go deeper into the stretch. Don’t be afraid to fidget about, adjust the pose to see what feels best, go a bit deeper or back off as needed; there is no law that you have to stay perfectly still.
2) Sitting or reclining hamstring (and hip) stretches are pretty excellent for watching DVDs/YouTube/iPlayer/whatever. Just stick a pillow or block under your head if you’re lying on your back, so you can see the screen. This makes long holds much, much less boring, and stops you twitching and looking at your watch every 5 seconds, and also increases motivation to do your stretches because then it becomes the time you get to watch that TV programme you meant to get around to.
I owe my front splits largely to a box set of The Wire (not a joke).
Secondary tip: experiment with having at least a micro-bend in your knees.
Even if/when you can touch your toes with your legs locked straight, unlocking them a fraction can help get the stretch happening in the muscle belly rather than straining the hamstring attachment to your sitz bones, which hurts and takes ages to heal (do not recommend).
Other secondary tip: improvise a “yoga belt” with a regular belt, a sling, a metre or two of worn-out rope, a resistance band, whatever. When you’re doing reclining stretches, use it to hook your foot and pull it gently towards you. Even if you can reach your foot without it, the belt lets you do so while keeping your back very flat, and without straining or tensing stuff.
This again contributes to the ability to chill and breathe, which has a huge effect on allowing you to relax and your nervous system to decide that you’re not about to pull yourself apart and that therefore it doesn’t need to contract your muscles protectively to prevent injury.
I believe the science increasingly suggests that a lot of stretching is not about tissue changes but about the nervous system being conditioned to accept that a wider range of motion can be safe and okay.
Which is why building strength at the extremes of your current range of motion can also help, because it builds that experience of having stability and control in that end-range (and also is really really handy for anything like climbing where you really need to have strength and control while your joints might be in quite extreme positions) .
Good post and interesting stuff.
I've been catching up on this thread attentively since I derailed it from touching your toes into including climbing-relevant stretches discussion :-[ and it's got me quite inspired. I'm struggling with training at the moment due to another shitting injury and trying to find ways around that, at the same time my flexbility - apart from touching my toes, of course - is absolutely bolloxed after getting over the LCL injury (incidentally even looking at pigeon pose made me shudder, that would rip the ligament in two like a bit of tissue paper). I can't wait to try LH98's "Bloody hell! How inflexible are you?!" floor-sitting test and report back :look:
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so try sitting on the floor
Tick!
in a straddle position (straight legs approximately 90 degrees apart),
Took some effort but just about possible, I used a box to estimate 90-degreeness.
put both palms on the floor in front of you
Actually quite hard to fit them in with my enormously fucking fat swollen tree-trunk thighs :'( :( >:(
and lift your feet off the ground for 5 seconds.
Prolapse b2b quad strain!!
Move both hands forward to increase the difficulty and get a 5 second max.
It definitely got more difficult. I could get my wrists out about 10" from my sweaty bawbag, but that did hurt in my thighs doing 5 seconds.
I think hands further forward than your knees is a good score
:lol: meanwhile back in reality...
and in line with your feet is equivalent to 1 arming the BM2K middle slot ;)
At which point you should also be benchpressing 1.5 bw, muscle-ups for breakfast, and doing 8Bs with iron cross moves in, or something.
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(incidentally even looking at pigeon pose made me shudder, that would rip the ligament in two like a bit of tissue paper).
Yeah, the thing with pigeon is that if you do it correctly, your bent leg functions like one solid piece, with all the bones nicely lined up and joints congruent, and exclusively rotates from the hip.
The problem is that it's a pose where it's really easy to "cheat" and force it beyond what your hip movement will allow, if you're focusing on making it look like the picture in the book or whatever; you can lever a lot of weight into it, and then the rotation that your hip can't do will end up as torque through your knee and fuck it up, even without a pre-existing injury.
However, there are modifications and alternatives to suit whatever your current ROM is -- Cheque was telling me about a really clever version of Pigeon he's got, standing up and using furniture to prop the front leg at a manageable height/amount of rotation.
Or (for example) you've got the Z-sit or Deer Pose versions where you bend the back leg to the side, which tips the hips so the front leg can go down to the ground with a much less aggressive degree of rotation:
https://www.yogajournal.com/practice/beginners/how-to/3-ways-make-pigeon-pose-feel-better/
https://yogauonline.com/yoga-practice-tips-and-inspiration/4-accessible-pigeon-pose-variations
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I need to read through more of the replies here but I thought I would send an update after day 3 of stretching.
It’s on a pad which makes me sink in a bit and I don’t get as high if I do it on firm ground, but the “before” photo was on the pad so I did the same again.
Day 1 was without any real warm up and no stretching.
(https://i.ibb.co/ggD8fHq/33821-A5-D-CF11-469-D-A61-C-66-ADFB52-AC44.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PC5yP3X)
Day 3 was after a v. Light warm up about 20 mins of stretching
(https://i.ibb.co/zbCcdS0/FED5-C9-BB-C44-B-4604-A6-B2-CEB2-D15-AAE9-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wC8HtKx)
I could go further with someone pushing, but I’m on my own today. Really happy with the progress!
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You have an OVEN in your van?!?! Gas powered?
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You have an OVEN in your van?!?! Gas powered?
Yeah it’s a pretty luxury van! It’s a thetford triplex. 3 burners, oven and grill.
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I could go further with someone pushing, but I’m on my own today. Really happy with the progress!
Nice work!
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Forgot to post that I very much like your assistant in the first picture, James!
I've been trying to get back into / keep up with stretching, as I can't train with my elbow, but hopefully stretching can both help a little bit with my climbing, but also with conditioning my body and setting it up for future training.
I've halved my 2 hour gym sessions (the emergency "not climbing enough at the moment" ones...) and done 50 mins of stretching to finish instead of more weights. This seems to be okay.
The most useful thing has been finding the stretches that are the most relaxing and easiest to chill out in with the body being put into the stretch and then having to do the least exertion after. As well as toes touching, I've particularly liked cobbler pose sitting against a wall, and can relax into that for a few minutes, also the quad / hip flexor stretch where you have one foot behind you on a bench (nice on the padded mats / bench).
Also not having a militantly strict routine and going with the flow a bit in terms of how much I do and what order i do it in (as long as i'm doing stuff to open the pelvis, do glutes, and a few others, at SOME point) has helped me be more relaxed and positive about stretching sessions.
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Sounds like a good routine Fiend. Chopping the weights session in half is a good move, as anything after the first hour is likely going to be junk mileage.
Due to poor positioning on side splits, I've often struggled with my femur jamming my pelvis. If I've pushed a bit too hard it can leave the inside of my hips sore for a few days. More horse squats seems to be helping rewire my brain to position the pelvis better; If I fatigue the muscles in horse stance and then try to rep out horse squats, I really have to concentrate on keeping anterior pelvic tilt to prevent jamming. Another issue I haven't managed to fix is with keeping the femur externally rotated, or at least neutral when going deep on side splits. Any tips?
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edit: double post
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Also not having a militantly strict routine and going with the flow a bit in terms of how much I do and what order i do it in (as long as i'm doing stuff to open the pelvis, do glutes, and a few others, at SOME point) has helped me be more relaxed and positive about stretching sessions.
This approach has been really useful for me too. As long as I give myself a minimum of five minutes and do a couple of key stretches then I’m good, no pressure. Though I usually do quite a bit more. I’m on a 58 day streak of stretching atm which has definitely yielded results.
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Slightly off-topic but in case it's useful, I can confirm that being able to touch your toes is absolutely bloody useless for 1. Any form of relevant climbing flexibility (hip-opening, wide bridges, etc), 2. Any form of climbing performance.
OTOH it's a fairly pleasant stretch, it is directly measurable, and I agree with the common sense advice above of starting gently, doing it regularly, doing longer holds etc.
This. I can touch my palms to the floor easily and while it's nice that I'm able to do it, it does nothing for me in terms of climbing performance.
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I can touch my palms to the floor easily and while it's nice that I'm able to do it, it does nothing for me in terms of climbing performance.
So if something happened that made your hamstrings, glutes and lower back so stiff that you had to sit down to put your shoes on and made involuntarily grunting noises while doing so, do you think you’d be climbing at the same level as before?
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Apologies for straying off topic, but can you bendy folk recommend some stretches that are relevant for climbers? Upper body, lower body, I ain't fussy - but preferably accessible to someone as stiff as a board.
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https://www.verywellfit.com/seated-groin-and-inner-thigh-stretch-3120294
for a start. For opening hips and being able to get in close to and over holds.
Or just google "best stretches for climbers"
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So if something happened that made your hamstrings, glutes and lower back so stiff that you had to sit down to put your shoes on and made involuntarily grunting noises while doing so, do you think you’d be climbing at the same level as before?
Sorry cheque, my original reply about this wasn't meant to disparage or dismiss people who have severely struggled with mobility due to injury or disability - obviously you were an unfortunate outlier!!
https://www.verywellfit.com/seated-groin-and-inner-thigh-stretch-3120294
Ah that's the one I have been calling cobbler pose, and do sitting against the wall with a straight back, for maximum chillage / ease of use.
For glutes, I do this: https://www.verywellfit.com/eye-of-the-needle-pose-sucirandhrasana-3567044 - but with the back foot resting against the wall and knee at 90 degrees - really targets the glutes but again is pretty chilled to stay in (although I had to give it up completely with my LCL, and am now easing back in with a modified version).
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https://www.verywellfit.com/seated-groin-and-inner-thigh-stretch-3120294
for a start. For opening hips and being able to get in close to and over holds.
Or just google "best stretches for climbers"
In "9 out of 10 Climbers", Dave MacLeod recs that and a seated wide-legged forward bend as the key two for climbers. Here's a decent description of the latter:
https://www.doyou.com/how-to-do-wide-legged-seated-forward-fold-pose/
I'd also add a basic doorway pec stretch because it can help prevent a lot of shoulder fuckery.
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good call on the pec stretch. always feels good too.
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Apologies for straying off topic, but can you bendy folk recommend some stretches that are relevant for climbers? Upper body, lower body, I ain't fussy - but preferably accessible to someone as stiff as a board.
Well done on remembering upper body - I think having open shoulders is at least as important as having open hips! A good test is to stand with your back to a wall and raise your arms above your head without your lower back leaving the wall. If you can't get yours hands to touch the wall then you are giving up reach and will need to bring your torso further from the wall every time you are reaching overhead (if your core is engaged then you can't arc your back to compensate). The butchers block stretch is a great way to help address this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDnP3sPkdO0
Pec stretch as others have mentioned will also help. Personally I find the floor version much more effective than the doorway:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ucqiO-YjvM
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Excellent, thanks all, shall slot some of those in between 1 armers
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If you want to add to those, cat-cow is nice for mobilizing your spine and preventing back ache -- good to put in your warm-up:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/multimedia/cat-cow-pose/vid-20453581
And downwards-facing dog gives you a hamstring stretch, a calf stretch and some shoulder-opening (and weight-bearing down through your hands), so it's potentially a lot of bang for your buck. But because it's got all that going on, it might be hard to get into initially if you're very stiff.
https://www.ekhartyoga.com/resources/yoga-poses/downward-facing-dog-pose
https://www.yogajournal.com/poses/downward-facing-dog/
If it doesn't work even with your knees very bent, you could try it with your hands on the seat of a chair or on the wall. Or if it just feels cramped/awkward/jammed and you're not feeling a stretch, ditch it until you've got a bit more range of motion in the components and can get something out of it.
These are less focused on enhancing specific mobility for climbing, more general maintenance and preventing the climbing from fucking you up too much.
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These are less focused on enhancing specific mobility for climbing, more general maintenance and preventing the climbing from fucking you up too much.
Good. Something very much at the forefront of my mind at the moment. Who knows if I could attain a body condition that's 1/10th of a LiamHutch98, I might be able to train again :-\
Quite pleased to see that many of these recommendations are stuff I include already. I do cat-cow (incredibly inflexibly) at the end of two sets of cobra (for keeping sciatica at bay) and child's pose. I do pecs on door frame (but probably not nearly enough). I'll try downward dog and butcher's block, but probably both at the same time.