UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: DaveC on June 15, 2008, 11:16:27 pm
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Apparently Steve McLure has now ticked it. Good effort!
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http://hotaches.blogspot.com/2008/06/steve-mcclure-climbs-rhapsody-sonnie.html took him 4 days over 2 sessions :bow:
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very impressive.
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good effort. is this the first british ascent?
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Surely you mean first English ascent :-\
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good effort. is this the first british ascent?
Are you calling Dave Macleod a liar?
Seriously though, Steve went for the lead on his first visit there, after trying it only for a few hours. Take of that what you will, but I think the message is clear. Regardless, he crushed it.
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it was a gag ::)
you're right he crushed it. looking forward to seeing the vids.
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Outstanding effort from Steve!
What message is clear? and what should we take from it?.........
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good effort. is this the first british ascent?
Just like Dr. Pepper, Cofe is so misunderstood.
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To reiterate a very old point, I think we should have an honorary waddage system that includes the likes of Steve and other non ukb members, so in a situation like this I can give him waddage!
What was the joke? Perhaps you could have written, this is the second English ascent of the route, which would have confused people, until they learnt that you meant in the traditional sense of the word English, which was commonly used (and accepted) to denote the British isles. Times changed though, and people needed to have pride in something closer to home so now English is England only. What next? I'm not English! I'm a scouser! errr, wait a sec... ;)
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The first thing that comes into my mind when i hear steve mclure, someone not especially known for doing the absolute top-level of trad routes (i.e. E10s) quicly ticks a route billed as the hardest trad route in the world, i think "fuck me thats an astounding effort", and the second thing that occurs to me is "does that mean its easy for the grade then?". Of course this could just be one of the safer trad routes (sounds like it cos Del Boy wasn't making such a big deal of the fall compared to the media hype surrounding the FA) and thus McLure's sport pedigree pays dividends. question?
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He has done a few E9s though, and he has probably done 8c+s in less time than this...
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McLure's sport pedigree pays dividends.
i only skim read your post but that point above must be well important. how many 9as and above as he done? how many times has he onsighted 8b+ or whatever? mental. uncle: i'll be more obvious next time ;D anyway, let's not let it detract from a fine effort.
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Question? I think we all really know the answer...
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It shouldn't be surprising that McClure can climb stuff like this quickly. Its a few grades below his limit, just a bit runout. The E11 film did a pretty good job of showing it as not properly dangerous, ie R rather than X in the US system. I daresay Sonnie didn't just fall on the same wire til it broke either.
Has noone mentioned that Sonnie did it AGAIN, placing all the gear on lead! This is well impressive, it might not mean much in the end given the siege style of ascent but worthy none the less.
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thus McLure's sport pedigree pays dividends. question?
Answer!
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surely Steve MaC is scottish?
still needs a proper English ascent...
...man runs for cover
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went to visit an old climbing buddie of mine in glasgow over the week end. Very hung over we Ended up at dumbie on Sunday and saw Steve climbing on this line. Was impressive to see he cruised the crack of requiem like it was a Vs and then looked really smooth and good on the finishing headwall even having time to hang around and shake out. Excellent stuff to see.
The local scottish lads that were there seemed to think he hadn't done dave macleods line but had done sonnie trotters other version that he called cop out, which uses holds on the arete. Either way it was cool to see and very inspiring.!
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Question? I think we all really know the answer...
anything more to add?
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(please dont punter me for this...)
I understand Ste Mac put quite a lot of effort into trying the Cratcliffe groove without doing it, which (if it has a font 8b crux?) might be c. 8c/+ (although hard to give french grade for grit)? That's e10, which might a be more appropriate grade for Rhapsody? Of course this is a bit of a crap argument (very different in style etc.)? I know its for a hypothetical onsight (hypothetically!), but i bet its more onsightable than the groove?
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I don't think either are particularly onsightable at this point in time, in fact if SteMac took four days I'd put more money on someone lanky and strong fluking the groove on the flash.
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Question? I think we all really know the answer...
So it could be slightly over graded. I don't think it would have been DMc's intention to mislead anyone, (though courting publicity is another question), grades do settle with repeat ascentionists opinions. Perhaps they will comment?
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Doesn't strike me as necassarily overgraded, just contrived and uninspiring.
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Notes on the grade: E11 7a. Obviously this is a remarkable grade. It arises mainly from the physical and technical difficulty of the climb. It's the hardest link I've ever done, so harder than the F8cs and Font 8bs. 8c+? maybe, I haven't done one so I don't know. So we'll say 8c. But it's also very technical climbing, a very devious sequence. The other aspect is the danger; a 60/70 foot fall from the top moves, sometimes glancing off the belay ledge. The swing in is extremely violent, sprained ankles, badly cut and bruised feet, legs and back and a crushed calf muscle were experienced. If you flipped and hit head first? I think the new grade might be justified as this route will only go if you are a high standard sport climber as well as bold. That sets it apart from previous routes. It's definitely 2 E grades harder than my E9s and 3 E's harder than Breathless. Grading hard routes is really just speculating about something where you have very little to go on. If not E11 then E10, repeaters will find out...
I agree that there doesn't seem to anything misleading here. Just an honest and open attempt to explain why he gave the route that grade. As you say it's up to people who've repeated it to comment on the grade but seeing as ST admits he doesn't get E grades it's unlikely that he will so that just leaves Steve.
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Steve didn't climb 'cop out' that reaches the arete at start of the traverse back right, before the crux boulder problem. However he did finish the route with his right hand on the 2nd to lasthold unlike dave and sonnie who had there left on this then the top with their right hand. Sonnie tried it Steves way and thought it was as hard a move if not harder.....
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Doesn't strike me as necassarily overgraded, just contrived and uninspiring.
Strikes me as all 3 tbh
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I'd agree with Contrived.
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Not sure how anything on Dumbarton Rock can be uninspiring?
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I think its the fact that it is a complete blinkers route that makes it uninspiring. It wouldn't be out of place as a boulder problem at hobson moor (or minus 10 for you peakies)
What you do is climb 3/4 of the way up this amazing line, then take hold 24 LH, 17 RH, feet on smears only etc....
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I think its the fact that it is a complete blinkers route that makes it uninspiring. It wouldn't be out of place as a boulder problem at hobson moor (or minus 10 for you peakies)
What you do is climb 3/4 of the way up this amazing line, then take hold 24 LH, 17 RH, feet on smears only etc....
I know what to get you for christmas;
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5208/3088/400/E11%20DVD.0.jpg)
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What you do is climb 3/4 of the way up this amazing line, then take hold 24 LH, 17 RH, feet on smears only etc....
.... and that is toss. Have you ever had a look at the Rock (and I don't meant the "wrestler")? while it is an eliminate, the lines are far enough apart to be reasonably independant.
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I watched E11 not so long ago, thought it was quite good tbh.
I've climbed at dumbarton a few times and the headwall is very impressive IMHO, its just that this is touted as the hardest traditional rock climb when its just an eliminate and probably overgraded.
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I'm sure the debate about the grade of this will rumble on until more poeple have done it!
However i am sure that Dave Mac was just speculating with what he thought.
It is easy to see where it comes from when considering that Equilibrium is rated at 8b+ in a dangerous situation!
at the garde of 8c/+ it is also potential full 7 grades harder than some E9's which rate about F7c.
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Sorry that should say 7 grades harder not 'full grades' :spank:
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saw steve at the wall last week, he was complaining about a pulley injury. wish i was that good when i was injured.
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This topo has been posted on UKC
(http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/90093.jpg)
Does anyone know if this is right?? - from the looks of things here, direquiem meanders as much as rhapsody does
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I woudn't know, but the lines seem reasonably independent, as stated previously.
James?
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http://www.climbmagazine.com/SteMacRhapsodyComments.aspx
Well there you go. Eliminate? Yes. Inspiring? Well that's down to personal preference. Overgraded? Not according to the bloke most qualified to comment.
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That's a great photo.
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yeah the photo with lines of routes is correct. Anyone operating around the french grade level of Requiem should try this route and give it the attention it deserves, amazing achievement by Cubby in 1983!!!
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Doesn't strike me as necassarily overgraded, just contrived and uninspiring.
Strikes me as all 3 tbh
Strikes me as a good description of many hard grit 'classics'
Grit routes are often escapable / contrived and generally lacking any wow factor, imo.
But hey, who am I to judge?
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Many? No. Some? Yes, certainly recently. None have had half this level of media attention though, which is the context this comment needs taking in.
I can believe the headwall is foreshortened in that topo photo but it looks like an indirect finish about 20-25 foot long. Requiem is undeniably a classic line, this isn't.
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Many? No. Some? Yes, certainly recently. None have had half this level of media attention though, which is the context this comment needs taking in.
Going back some time Equilibrium hasd masses of attention, and more recently Cratcliffe Groove has had the odd magazine page and forum post.
I can believe the headwall is foreshortened in that topo photo but it looks like an indirect finish about 20-25 foot long. Requiem is undeniably a classic line, this isn't.
Quite possibly true but Dave Mac gave it a very big grade which together with his seemingly fairly straightforward repeats of a number of big name routes in Lakes, Wales and Ireland ends up with it being a very newsworthy route. Add to that a foreign star coming over to spend a month to repeat it and Steve Mac making mincemeat of it and you have a big story imo.
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Couple of things about this...
Dumbarton main face IS a very impressive sheet of rock. Sure it's not Cloggy, but ignoring the setting / neds / graffiti / etc, and just taking that sheet of rock, it is a fine a bit of rock as anywhere. That I believe is part of it's appeal. Quick drying and super-easy access helps.
The line of Rhapsody, if you look at it you can see Dave Mac's concept there. He was clearly aiming to climb to the highest point of the main face by the most-independent-from-Requiem line he could, and making the use out of that bit of rock. Direquiem probably isn't as independent from Requiem as he wanted (leaves it later), CopOut doesn't go all the way to the summit of the face, so Rhapsody, although not the ideal line, was the best he could do with that bit of rock to get the most climbing out of it.
As far as the repeats and attention goes, I think another part of the lure is the style of the route, as Steve Mac says: Very hard climbing (for trad), a fair way up, above a huge but relatively safe fall. It's a rare-ish combination which allows a good head-game without too much real danger, you can see why fit Canadians and F9a+ sport climbers would be drawn to it rather than to Indian Face or If 6 Was 9 or To Hell And Back.
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I understand perfectly why it is getting so much media attention, I just think its a shame its not a more striking or independent line that the world are wetting their pants over. Dave is clearly under no illusions about this judging by the for 'locals... with nice moves' comments on his blog.
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It's always great when the next big grade is immortalised by a line so visually awesome that even daring to consider it gets an E number.
However, it says a lot about climbers and the nature of the obsession that if there is a challenge, people will embrace it... In that respect, it's a victory for the spirit of climbing. Aesthetics aren't everything, and sometimes people make too much of them. Dave, Sonnie and Steve have all been seduced by the movement, the difficulty and the hardest route in the UK. I think that's great. Rhapsody might not be the most visually appealing thing, but it's clearly got character*.
It's only recently that trad has taken steps to catch up with sport (perhaps in onsight terms it is still way behind?), but Rhapsody seems to be the first British route in recent times to have significantly raised the bar. And with Steve's repeat, possibly the first time in a long time a world-class climber has dabbled in cutting edge trad?
Why climb? Because it's there hard...?
*Though I have to admit, I'm not really interested in seeing yet more footage of a climb that has already been covered in every minute detail on the E11 film.
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I'm just amazed that, rightly or wrongly, no-one seems to have yet used the pun "Crapsody". I'm willing be corrected though.
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And with Steve's repeat, possibly the first in a long time a world-class climber has dabbled in cutting edge trad?
Might Tommy Caldwell have something to say about that?
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I dunno. Has Tommy climbed several 9a+'s?
Perhaps I should have said world-class sport climber, to avoid confusion.
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Tommy Caldwell has certainly dabbled with the cutting edge (ouch!).
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Saw what you did there.
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I hoped that joke wood work.
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....the hardest route in the UK...
I suspect Steve Mac might disagree with you on that assessment. Hardest trad route maybe.
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Good god, do I need to get my lawyers to check my posts? Of course I meant trad. ::)
Otherwise we'd have to mention his Gaskinship...
Enough puns Dave, this thread is getting a bit rhapshoddy.
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Enough puns Dave, this thread is getting a bit rhapshoddy.
Ouch!
Caldwell's climbed at least one 9a+ hasn't he (Flex Luthor). I'd say that puts him in the "World Class" bracket for sport climbing (unless you now need to have done three or four to qualify). :-\
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So if I'm after physically hard and reasonably well-protected trad-climbing, preferably steep stamina routes harder than French 8b, what other lines are there in the UK?
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Harvest?
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Many? No. Some? Yes, certainly recently. None have had half this level of media attention though, which is the context this comment needs taking in.
I can believe the headwall is foreshortened in that topo photo but it looks like an indirect finish about 20-25 foot long. Requiem is undeniably a classic line, this isn't.
Perhaps, but I'll stick with an unqualified "many" thanks.
On the "shit" classics front, I have to say the equilibrium does little to inspire my aspirational punterish mind; crappy looking arete with huge ledge some way up - gear -then a precarious lookin boulder problem which appears to be mostly fall-offable.
IF I had the ability I'd rather slam my knob in a fridge door than put effort into something like this route, when compared to, say, Divided Years. That IS a stunning, hard and continuous quality line that gets my punterish juices going.
Still, each to their own.
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IF I had the ability I'd rather slam my knob in a fridge door than put effort into something like this route, when compared to, say, Divided Years.
Still, each to their own.
Honestly, It's not THAT hard. You just pull your pants down, thrust your hips and bobs your uncle
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I'm just a bit bored of hearing about it all the time... esp UKC which seems to be in some sort of mastabatory article multiple orgasm mode with the route..
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I'm just a bit bored of hearing about it all the time... esp UKC which seems to be in some sort of mastabatory article multiple orgasm mode with the route..
Couldn't agree more.
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So if I'm after physically hard and reasonably well-protected trad-climbing, preferably steep stamina routes harder than French 8b, what other lines are there in the UK?
Mission Impossible in the Ogwen, a Neil Carson route though I do think it is mostly protected by pegs.
That thin crack with a pinkie mono that Birkett did on Scafell East (Welcome to the Hard Times, maybe???)
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captain invincible?
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So if I'm after physically hard and reasonably well-protected trad-climbing, preferably steep stamina routes harder than French 8b, what other lines are there in the UK?
Mission Impossible in the Ogwen, a Neil Carson route though I do think it is mostly protected by pegs.
That thin crack with a pinkie mono that Birkett did on Scafell East (Welcome to the Hard Times, maybe???)
Its called Welcome to the Cruel World, I think, E9 7a?
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Aye Welcome To Hard Times is an E2 at Staden. Good route actually but it's not quite 8b.
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Aye Welcome To Hard Times is an E2 at Staden. Good route actually but it's not quite 8b.
Must well protected to get E2 if it was 8b tho! :lol:
I think it is funny that folk reckon Rhapsody is overgraded.
If you think about what Dave M has done over the last few years. First off he repeats two (three?) E10's (DY, Breathless & Slingshot thingy) in a few days and downgrades them all. He tickles his way up a few Birket E9's again spending only a few days on them. Does a megamonster E10 at Hell's Lum (watch the vid, it is proper scary) over a few weekends. All these grades are accepted.
In the meantime, he spends 2 YEARS on Rhapsody. Admittedly getting fitter all the time, but the time scales cannot compare here.
Remember, the E grade is the overall grade. How can it not be E11 based on these timelines? Sounds more like E12 than E10 to me
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Aye Welcome To Hard Times is an E2 at Staden. Good route actually but it's not quite 8b.
Must well protected to get E2 if it was 8b tho! :lol:
I think it is funny that folk reckon Rhapsody is overgraded.
If you think about what Dave M has done over the last few years. First off he repeats two (three?) E10's (DY, Breathless & Slingshot thingy) in a few days and downgrades them all. He tickles his way up a few Birket E9's again spending only a few days on them. Does a megamonster E10 at Hell's Lum (watch the vid, it is proper scary) over a few weekends. All these grades are accepted.
Are you sure about that last statement? As i'm fairly confident that people who'd been on DY thought it was overgraded and that there was a general feeling that the same applied to 'that slingshot thing'...
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Depends if he means the downgraded grade or the original overgraded grade. ;)
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That's part of my (boring) point. He did the E10's, downgraded them all - thus proving he is not a grade machine saying "I've done E10 blah blah".
His E9's were harder. The Hells Lum E10 was harder still and Rhappers was E11.
Comparing Rhapsody with say Breathless would make it E13 if Breathless stayed at E10. Gulp... Never written E13 before. Sounds like a food additive.
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I'm not sure it follows that just because someone downgrades other peoples routes they won't overgrade their own :shrug:. You don't have to think too hard to find examples of climbers who have downgraded other peoples things and then had their own routes downgraded in turn.
I'm not suggesting Dave has over/under graded Rhapsody, I haven't a clue.
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dont remember dave m publicly downgrading these routes. in fact "the slingshot thing" is climbed by him on a video and given the grade of e10. i actually thought it ws more a case of oh thank god somebodys repeated that so it can finally get down graded and then for whatever reason he didnt publicly do so. in the case of the slingshot thingy every man and his dog knew an (easy??) 8a boulder to a no hands rest big enough to put yor harness on followed by an e7 headwall does not make e10. always seemed to me a bit like doing the joker then walking 5 minutes up the crag and doing shine on and claiming e10.
i think 1 of the main problems with the grade of e11 is, e10 is not a grade that has been fully consolidated yet. of the e10s that exist very few hav had repeats and those that hav (with the exception of equilibrium?) seem to hav some kinda issues with the grade.
i seem to remember birkett saying something along the lines of breathless being easier than his e9s (interpret as u will), divided years i hav heard from people who hav top roped the route is a 4star e8 lacking traffic because of its location, and the slingshot thingy (i like that name) was graded by some sort of mathmatical multiplication table.
i think its obvious people r gonna question such a big grade, especially wen u can fall of it without serious injury and so few established e10s exist. Somebody repeating this in 4 days (all be it one of the greatest climbers) is only gonna add to speculation.
whatever the grade good effort to all the guys who hav succeeded on what is obviously a very hard route.
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Blind Vision took me three 1 hour sessions of top roping (curtailed by rain) followed by a lead in less than good visibility. It comprises of a highball (but not exceptionally highball) Font 7c+ or 8a, followed by an E8. But the boulder problem is hard enough to prevent a good proportion of E8 or even a few E9 climbers succeeding on it.
My opinion is that an E10 climber should dispatch Font 8a no problem (if not Font 8b). And anyone who can climb the boulder problem should find the top wall pretty easy unless they have very little experience in headpointing.
Other feelings… Blind Vision is definitely easier than If Six was Nine (which I have done the moves on during a 30 min session on the way home from Breathless). Its also easier than the Scottish E9s and I’d say it felt like 2 grades easier than Rhapsody. However, its harder than Breathless and Divided Years (but then they are E8s!).So these days I am getting more confused about the difference between the grades at E8 and above.
If DY and Breathless end up as E10s then Rhapsody might be the first E13. If I repeat all the E10s in the UK and they are all E8, I'll bring Rhapsody down to E9 or 10. Grades are not fixed they exist only in climbers heads, they can change.
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Didn't Ricky Bell reckon DY was E9, not E8? Just to confuse things further.
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divided years i hav heard from people who hav top roped the route is a 4star e8
Well Ricky Bell has just repeated it, placing gear on lead, and called it E9. I also hear Irish Si is close too. Be interesting to hear Si's thoughts.
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Didn't Ricky Bell reckon DY was E9, not E8? Just to confuse things further.
Just typed my below reply when you posted that. Indeed.
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http://www.climbmagazine.com/RickyBellDividedYearsPhotos.aspx