UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: grimer on May 14, 2007, 11:52:30 am
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Our own AndiT finally snagged his new route in the Churney Vallet this weekend. You probably won't have been there, but it's the wall below Inaccessible on Ina's Rock. Really amazing looking route, a very highball solo above a flat landing, but still pretty scary looking. I think it's called Thumbalina, E7 6c. :beer2:
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:thumbsup:
I've been twice. This was THE line that needed to be done. Finishes up Inaccessible I presume?
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Not sure, wasn't there. Although you end up on stood on a big ledge, so in a way they;re different things. I didn't think it was that natural to finish up Inaccesible.
By the way, did Inaccesible last week, that really is a superb, unique and well protected route. And with the other great routes there, could we see a day in the future when Ina's Rock becomes the new Dave's Cave?
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I was going to finish up Inaccessible but didn't in the end, opting for the lightweight highball approach. Like Grimer says Inaccessible is another 'pitch' effectively, but would make for an amazing outing.
I'd jumped off from quite high on Thursday afternoon but then managed to slightly refine my sequence on Saturday and get up it. For a short route it's surprisingly draining and has no 'chalking' points from when the crux starts to the finish. I'm really pleased with the climbing and the independance of the line, it was one of those lucky finds with just enough holds to get you up. Chuffed to pieces. Was gonna call it M16a, but no one understood my texts so I renamed it Thumbelina. Thanks to Gus for spotting on the day and for those others who I have dragged down in the previous couple of weeks to a crag which isn't to everyones taste. It's worth adding for those of you who fancy exploring, the crag boasts one of the best E5's around (Inaccessible) plus two highball E4/5 routes and a brilliant E2 grovel crack, a crag worth checking out. ;D
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Good work yoot! Any photos in the pipeline?
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Hold yer horses there Bonners. I have some, though I'm not sure I can show you.
Its amazing though. Looks bof, as El mo would say. Best line I've seen in a long, long time.
Well in the peak and its environs obviously, I went to Nesscliffe last week, some LINES there, oh lordy. Sandstone is the new gritstone, y'all need to stop prancing round these wanky limestone 'bouldering' venues I tell you.
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Sandstone is the new gritstone, y'all need to stop prancing round these wanky limestone 'bouldering' venues I tell you.
Damn straight!
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But isnt there a new line you and Justin have been working on recently very very close to you?
Whens that gonna get done?
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Yeah, need to be a bit better to climb that one though, imagine it'll have to wait for colder conditions again now too.
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Glad you got it ticked on Saturday, though to be fair you couldn't have got much closer to doing the send on Thursday! Sorry I wasn't there to see the grin on ya face once ya touched the ledge.
Good work, whats next?
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Had a look at that wall a few years back, looks like a brilliant route, good effort.
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Well done :great: Stunning line, finally t'other end of the churnet getting the attention its deserves. Great name to.
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Glad you got it ticked on Saturday, though to be fair you couldn't have got much closer to doing the send on Thursday! Sorry I wasn't there to see the grin on ya face once ya touched the ledge.
Good work, whats next?
I wasn't grinning til I was stood on the ledge, I never liked the last mantle!
As for next, I'm gonna buy a ladder for route inspection. I've seen the light! Might go back to the route me and Just were trying, I fancy a break from the Churnet for a couple of weeks, although still want to tick Old King Cole at Harston. Probably just chill and be satisfied for a bit too. :wave:
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Sandstone is the new gritstone, y'all need to stop prancing round these wanky limestone 'bouldering' venues I tell you.
Word.
This spring I've had great days out at Helsby, Pex, and twice in the Churnet.
Oh and Font.
Next on the list, Nesscliffe and Armathwaite (and maybe Hetchell).
"Proper" sandstone is great.
Andi, you gonna do the big link at some point then? Or is once enough ;)
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Andi, you gonna do the big link at some point then? Or is once enough ;)
I won't be linking it into Inaccessible, but I will be going back, if you catch my drift.
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:-\
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There is possibly more to the headwall than just Inaccessible, though none to match it in quality. The crag isn't route-saturated yet.
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Fiend - take a yard brush if your going to hetchell
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I have one! Well, a proper outdoor patio-scrubbing type brush anyway. I just need some gimp who is willing to "swap" route brushing ;).
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Where are you based? Sheff? I wouldn't travel from Leeds to go to Hetchell, its cack. Nesscliffe though, I'd come from the moon.
In the light of recent debate the patio at the base of Tumbellina is rather amusing.
Oh, go on then, here's a taster through the eye of The Shaz. Me failing to commit to the crux. As you can see 'highball' ain't really the word.
(http://www.zen59200.zen.co.uk/Adam/Galleries/Climbing/AdamInas.jpg)
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Nice, good flexibility there strong lass. Good spotting from the dogs too lol. Definitely an impressive wall!
And yeah, from Sheff, I've already been to Hetchell twice soloing....I like exploring esoteric bollox ;D
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Where are you based? Sheff? I wouldn't travel from Leeds to go to Hetchell, its cack. Nesscliffe though, I'd come from the moon.
In the light of recent debate the patio at the base of Tumbellina is rather amusing.
Oh, go on then, here's a taster through the eye of The Shaz. Me failing to commit to the crux. As you can see 'highball' ain't really the word.
I guess it's not that high... Oh, here's a photo of Adam, I mean Lisa Rands on a v10/E7 "highball".
(http://www.lisarands.com/images/newsparadise.jpg)
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Where are you based? Sheff? I wouldn't travel from Leeds to go to Hetchell, its cack. Nesscliffe though, I'd come from the moon.
In the light of recent debate the patio at the base of Tumbellina is rather amusing.
Oh, go on then, here's a taster through the eye of The Shaz. Me failing to commit to the crux. As you can see 'highball' ain't really the word.
(http://www.zen59200.zen.co.uk/Adam/Galleries/Climbing/AdamInas.jpg)
Wowsers, that looks brilliant.
PS Everyone knows Americans give their headpoint routes V grades because they think it's more cool than 5.12d or whatever. Doesn't mean they're especially bold, just that they can't grade properly
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I guess it's not that high... Oh, here's a photo of Adam, I mean Lisa Rands on a v10/E7 "highball".
Always nay-saying :yawn:
That pic of Lisa is quality. I wonder what the moves are like where she is now?
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Everyone knows Americans give their headpoint routes V grades because they think it's more cool than 5.12d or whatever. Doesn't mean they're especially bold, just that they can't grade properly
Both US boulder and route grading systems don't really have capacity to include danger. The YDS justs adds an X or R at the end, similar to yorkshire P grades but less specific. Similarly V grades just get highball written after them.
That churnet shot doesn't show the height very well, and Andi had a couple of pads as opposed to the 15 doubtless hidden behind that brush. Uncle's photos will impress me more when they come with some info on how hard they are high up. If that route is E7, that means its less dangerous than Andi's which is probably tough V8 but also E7.
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What is the name of the crag...
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Ina's Rock. Or do you mean the Buttermilks?
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Why, what's the difference? ;)
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Fantastic effort Mr T! That photos hints at an impressive looking chunk of churnet. Exploring that bit of the world creeps higher up my list of things to do everytime I hear about it.
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Nice one Andi. It looks well brown.
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Yes, I'd have thought that would be due to the iron oxide content
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Inas Rock, looks very nice...
is this the new E7, what tech grade is it?
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I gave it 6c for the crux which Adam thought would be around V8 I think he said. Very bouldery section, the rest is 6a, 6bish I suppose. The last move needs a bit of 'momentum' and the mantle is scary.
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Its worth noting I didn't do the crux move, I only gave it V8 cos it seemed hard, and any harder than V8 would be 7a. 6c is probably a better grade, particularly as the man that gave it has done the move.
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the rest is 6a, 6bish I suppose.
When 6c's no longer hard and 6a, 6bish is a rest...
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I think you mean approaching a rest, don't you?
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yes, that is the quote, but andi said THE rest.
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The 6c is not that hard, and the rest is approaching 6b.
The move JB is on is almost a trick move and feels very unlikely. The left hand is on a poor roundy undercut and you have to get all your weight onto your heel, which is easier said than done to bring you right hand over to the pocket. If your heel pops then, or even once you've got the pocket, you're gonna fall awkward and hard. You then need to get your skates on to the top. I think without the beta, the crux would feel even harder. Getting off the ground took a bit of working out!
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Looks like a fantastic climb... there is something about highballs that push you to climb in a more relaxed state of mind! really fustrating to work out, really nerve racking whilst building up to the accent, then when it comes together, they just feel really smooth... do you know what i mean?
Did the line left of Public Enemy at Wind Moor End, so much anxiety prior to the end dyno, it just dissapeared half way through the first commited try, then cruiseing the end moves made it feel really easy, I fucking love Highballing i do...
Great effort, the Churnet Valley Rocks...
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looking at the photo's the last move is a very long way, and andi is all limbs. quality looking route. i thought it didn't look too high till i saw the size of the ladder what the photo's were taken from :o
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Yeah, it's a pretty amazing ladder, and was so stable on the perfectly level patio beneath.
All limbs, I'd take offence if it wasn't true.
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certainly better than being all schlong
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Not according to the gospel of Mark Sharratt 11:17 "It's better to be all Schlong, than all limbs, and it was so."
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...and the meek were heard to mutter 'not fair, Shaz is both all limbs and all schlong. And he gets discounted rates at both Tan Tropez and Tanerife, how are we supposed to compete?'
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Another thread goes tangential.
Or tan/genital.
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And so he went forth for said 'burn' which brought about a fiery glow, for it was Foun-tan Street, his second home for all of three minutes a week. Both schlong and limbs were all radiated and he said it was good and knew his returneth would be frequent.
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this thread is tantastic.
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Nice effort Andi.
It's worth adding for those of you who fancy exploring, the crag boasts one of the best E5's around (Inaccessible) plus two highball E4/5 routes and a brilliant E2 grovel crack, a crag worth checking out. ;D
You forgot to mention Ina's Chimney, for the bumblies. A worthwhile journey through the crag, in a league of its own really, in that it still manages to be fun despite the dirt and loose pebbles! (Although the other routes may be like that too, I haven't done them).
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SCHLONG; A cock with substantial thigh-slapping length and girth.
Shaz ruined AndiT's first ascent when he drunkenly whipped out his schlong in front of everyone at the crag.
Amazing what you find on Urban Dictionary!
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Which leads us onto Rogers profanisaurus :bow:
www.viz.co.uk
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By the way Grimes, whose Andi Turnet? New player on the Churnet scene?
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Mart, you must read the titles more carefully.
Cider Nut, of course, the chimney is a speleological dream with a Bellamesque top out "Lurking, deep in the undergrowth" and if you haven't done it, you haven't lived. Same goes for Sifta's Quid at the Roaches.
T
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Doh! Feel such a Schlong!
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Just had a flip through new LARGE FORMAT Climb mag in WHSMiff. Great picture of this route, hats off to Andi and to Mr Photographer man (JB/AL). Pretty pics of Steely Fingered Yoof, Ru and Gus too.
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:agree: it's certainly a colourful publication this edition. The one of Gus at Goldsborough is of particular mention, I think that one would make a good blow up, very nice. Incidentally, I was luck enough to get a print from photographer man (JB/AL) of Hen Cloud from the Spring Boulders (it's on his web page) which I took into a gallery in Leek where I get my pictures framed; the guy there just held the picture and went WOW, breathed out and then went WOW again, a great accolade I reckon.
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Amazing.
Didn't know there was a gallery in Leek.
You should have scanned it and flogged him half a dozen copies.
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Yesterday myself and Uncle managed a couple of ground-up ascents of this superb line. Being both rather shorter than Andi, we managed to find a way around the heel-hook crux with a nice bit of footwork and a little pop, making it more like 7a+/7b or V7. I think its still worth E7 though, it felt like an E6 6a but harder - E7 6b? The top section is very positive climbing which is a good job because it feels as high as it looks.
(http://www.zen59200.zen.co.uk/Adam/Galleries/Climbing/AndiInas.jpg)
More info at Keith's blog (http://www.unclesomebody.com/blog/). The only thing he didn't mention was the knee-wobbler mantel onto the narrow ledge at the top. I wouldn't recommend the traverse off (unless, of course, you've a point to prove), either take a rope and finish up Inaccessible or abb off the holly bush like Keith. Either way its very, very good.
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Good effort guys, looks like quite a spicy solo.
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ah brilliant. Could you not lassoo the two spikes with a rope, Peter harding style to sooth the nerves on the ledge move?
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In theory, possibly yes. In practice its a very spicy spot that needs getting out of fast. I fear hanging around, desperately flicking a rope, with the options of the fall or going without wheeling around your mind, would be worse.
Worth mentioning also in thew current climate, this crag is permanently dry, and the rock in this area at least is impeccable. Amazing.
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It looks brilliant. Am keen to see Jim's footage.
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Sorry to mislead you, but Jim only has stills. He will probably put some up when he gets back from work.
I'm thinking about heading back tomorrow to finish the job. Weather looks fine, so if anyone else is keen then come along! Bring a pad, or two, or three.
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I should point out that this is not really a highball at all. Its fucking high.
A fall from the last move would definatley result in injury; even onto the 4 or 5 big pads we had stacked up.
You definately need to take your brain out for this
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It's not that high. We had 3 pads stacked on top of each other. You're memory is worse than mine. Put up some pics Jim, unless you have been issued with a cease and desist.
Edit; Upon reflection, it is quite high, but because of the flat landing I think you could fall, in a controlled manner, a long way and still be able to walk out. An out of control fall would definitely result in injury.
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It's not that high. We had 3 pads stacked on top of each other. You're memory is worse than mine. Put up some pics Jim, unless you have been issued with a cease and desist.
Edit; Upon reflection, it is quite high, but because of the flat landing I think you could fall, in a controlled manner, a long way and still be able to walk out. An out of control fall would definitely result in injury.
Your not selling it me for tomorrow! I have done nothing but sport climb for last 6 months!
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don't put yourself down uncle. Its fucking high and you were shitting yourself on that ledge. It doesn't look that big with the picture of Andi on it because Andi is fucking massive as well.
I can't be arsed to get my camera out of my car yet cos I've been at work all day and am truly done in. I'll email you some photo's when I do
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I was so pleased to hear about this yesterday, it's great news that it's getting some attention and that you guys think it is not only good, but scary too, I pooed myself doing it. I'd like to hear the non-heel beta definitely too.
It's also great that it's had an improvement on style, I well and truly top roped it before my ascent.
I got some 'history' from Boysen last time met him and it was interesting to hear that John Allen had once worked this line, as had Simon Nadin, which I suppose reveals that it's not such a back water as first appears....well maybe!
If folks are going back tomorrow (Friday) please let me know, I'd love to go up and have a go at getting an ascent of the other new route 'Cornelius' to the left.
Once again, really well done on the GU. Stoked.
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Edit; Upon reflection, it is quite high, but because of the flat landing I think you could fall, in a controlled manner, a long way and still be able to walk out. An out of control fall would definitely result in injury.
I've taken some big falls onto ground and mats in my time, but there's no way I'd like to fall, even in perfect control, off that last move. You are going to hurt yourself. Fluff the mantel and you'd be in a world of shit.
I think you'll like the new beta Andi, its a lovely move, easier and flows straight into the next. And you don't have to stretch out horizontal at 3 metres. Did a slightly more direct start too, though looking at the pics from last year not as direct as I nearly did then.
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it felt like an E6 6a but harder - E7 6b?
Brilliant. The UK grading system lives on. 8)
Nice one guys. Better than Hoy?? ;)
The E8-ish thing to the left next, then??
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If folks are going back tomorrow (Friday) please let me know, I'd love to go up and have a go at getting an ascent of the other new route 'Cornelius' to the left.
Yes Andi, me and Unc are meeting there for 10.30 tomorrow morning. See you there....
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Hmm, 10:30 would be a bit of a stretch, need to work you see! Wouldn't be able to make it until the afternoon, sorry.
Email me if you're interested in any beta, or if you fancy meeting later on...
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After I gave Ned a demo by climbing up to the final moves then back down, Ned flashed Thumbelina confirming the high quality of the line, whilst also confirming what was in my mind... that this is a nice highball v7. This really is a great problem and should have far more traffic. Why waste your time with flooded peak limestone when you can enjoy high quality sandstone? :shrug:
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Was only saying yesterday that my limestone season is probably over for 08. It's all about grit (and maybe a bit of sand) now.
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C'mon Keith, what happened on Cornelius? Bit spicy above that tree?
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C'mon Keith, what happened on Cornelius? Bit spicy above that tree?
What tree? ::) Only joking.
Funny one regarding the E grade. Should you be able to fall off the crux of an E7 and be ok? I slipped off crux first go, and was fine. So not sure on grade. It is high and if you fluff the mantel, you would be screwed.
Depends how many pads is too many, we had 6. Keith would have done Cornilius today if that tree stump was not there. But it is, so there you go.....
Grades ey!
I got some pics of both routes, which ill upload tomorrow.
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Keith on Cornilius
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3085/2851761094_3eb69e2e6f.jpg?v=1221250840)
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Nice photo, Adam Lincoln Photography.
Unc really does bust out some good threads when needed...
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this is definately a route not a highball IMHO
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it's ok jim anyone with eyeballs can see that
highball v7, maybe it is but what thats got to do with anything i don't know
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Great highball spoilled by the remains of a dead tree? You know what I'd do
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Cut the stump out, insert a beautiful hand formed sika replacement and then have an internet debate? :whistle:
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Great highball spoilled by the remains of a dead tree? You know what I'd do
The tree aint completely dead. When me and Andi were cleaning and working the line we had the discussion as to what to do about it, and decided that with pads and spotters it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I am yet to see what 'pruning' Rob did before his asent, but there's life in the old stump still!
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no theres not. removing it can only be a good thing
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Keith and I did discuss this, having been there initially we were in favour of removal - though it'd be a big job - 18" thick trunk would require a chainsaw and a lot of digging it out to do properly.
However having read this thread (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=314413) it seems the FA and the locals would prefer to keep the tree. In the light of that I felt removing it would be likely to rather muddy the nature of any ethical/style statement made by ground-upping the line.
Having said that the tree has been chopped down to a stump already, if climbers did this it strikes me as a job done badly rather than an attempt to give it a fighting chance.
From the same thread:
The route to the right up the centre of the wall is Thumbelina (crux on a thumb sprag and at Ina's), Cornelius was Thumbelina's bit on the side ;o)
Where was the thumb sprag Andi?
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It wouldn't need a lot of work, just a sharp chainsaw accross the bottom to level it. Its already been chopped once for some reason rather badly so why not trim it a little more?
Doing this will cause 2 things: the route will be very slightly less scary and your less likely to do yourself a very serious injury falling off above it.
highball E8's, whatever next
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Ned flashing Thumbalina
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2853888798_660816abf6.jpg?v=1221327889)
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The tree is alive, it was there on the first ascent, it stays. Flat landings are for climbing walls. Bring ten pads along instead by all means, but don't bring it down to your level any other way. Let's not go down this path again :please:
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Ned flashing Thumbalina
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2853888798_660816abf6.jpg?v=1221327889)
That's a fucking great shot Adam. Doesn't look like the Ina's I remember but love it anyway.
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:agree: that's a mint picture.
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The tree is alive, it was there on the first ascent, it stays. Flat landings are for climbing walls. Bring ten pads along instead by all means, but don't bring it down to your level any other way. Let's not go down this path again
So who chopped it originally? And who did the massive pruning job for Mirf's ascent? Why?
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To quote Mirf's post on UKC
"The tree stump did get a trim, But I was very careful to only take off the rotten part that seemed to be falling apart anyway .I showed my friends and asked a couple of gardening experts their opinion, they thought the tree would probably stand more chance of survival without the rotten bit on top as this meant that the new growth could go straight up in place of the old stump. I hope the tree keeps going it's now about 14 inches high and still alive."
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Don't know, don't know, don't know.
I'd take it personally if someone removed the stump. The predominant reason Martin Dearden and myself didn't make the first ascents of this line were because of that stump, as you've already stated it's be a pretty mixed ethical statement to pull up a tree to make a ground up ascent.
It would be easier without the stump, but I remember hearing once from an experienced trad climber that "climbing is about challenges", right?
However, I also believe that this is just a bit of UKB baiting.
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I find Mirf's statement on UKC absolutely baffling. Having visited last year, and seen a small tree, and then this year and seen a 2ft high stump, its very hard to square Mirf's supposed caring approach with the reality. Andi, have you been up since Mirf's ascent?
The facts are, a few years ago there was a sizable tree here. Someone cut it down to a 3-4ft high stump, it then recovered for a few years, growing the branches visible in my photo of Andi. Since then someone, presumably Mirf, lopped all the new growth and more of the trunk off to leave a very small stump. I think its likely climbers were responsible for both, and likely locals.
I can't believe this was done in a spirit of helping the tree recover as Mirf states. What I can't understand is why someone who is prepared to chop a tree like this wasn't prepared to go the whole hog. Laziness possibly, or having a straw to grasp at when accused of killing a tree?
There is no baiting going on here Andi, unless its you trying to paint us as the outsiders coming in to trash your venues as we like. Remember none of us have done any chopping, and when it was suggested we've sought more info and local opinions, which is more than previous climbers here did.
My personal feeling is that had there been the original tree there or even the tree as it was last year, I wouldn't dream of touching it. However seeing the pathetic stump that remains it seems the decision has already been taken, and 99% executed. The fact the stump still shows signs of life is a miracle to be honest.
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This and the Mecca thread are absolute howlers.
:lol:
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Cheers Adam, it makes me feel happier hearing your response.
In response to your question, no I've not been up since the first ascent, not been able to face it really! It does point out that the stump/tree/thing has a sizeable affect on the route, it shouldn't, it should be taken as part of it in my opinion.
Completely agree that it would be a more enjoyable experience without the stump, but that doesn't mean it should go.
Anyway, it's still a great route and that should be the focus of anyones visit to the venue :kiss1:
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It might be worth taking Reg and Pixie out that way one evening... I think you'll be suprised how far the 'trim' has extended! I agree with you in principle, but the deed is pretty much done.
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Fuck the stump.
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Fuck the stump.
You could do if you fell on it.
Adam, I will do, I'm intrigued now...
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That stump is part of an ex-tree. it never will be a tree again.
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I don't want this to be another Patio thread, I think it's maybe going that way. The route is probably E8 at the moment, with lots of pads, spotters and no tree, it's maybe not, maybe is. The only reason for removing the tree is to make the route easier, which avoids part of the challenge and once it's gone, it's gone.
Last time I saw it, it would be a tree again, this could have now changed. That would be a shame.
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I really don't understand why you are so attached to this rotting stump Andi?
Its never going to grow into a tree again and even if it did it would obstruct the route at some point in its life.
If it was a boulder it would of been rolled out of the way, its just a dying tree stump whats wrong with leveling it off.
Removing would actually improve the asthetics of the place and also encourage more people to visit to try this problem ground up instead of headpointing it. It will not make the route easier.
All positive reasons for doing it IMHO.
Also, I don't know why I'm coming across so bothered about it. Its not as if I'm rushing back
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Because when Andi last visited it was a tree.
And of course he wouldn't have rolled a boulder over either, unless it was less than 15cm dia. But lets not go down THAT road again.
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Great highball spoilled by the remains of a dead tree? You know what I'd do
I’d just like to say, I made that flippant remark based on the (incorrect?) info that the stump was dead, in which case its removal would be a no-brainer. With it being alive it’s obviously not so black and white.
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Was there ever a video about of Thumbelina? Quite keen to take a look at this at the weekend and any beta would be good. If the moves don't stop me I think the height will after a summer of sport!
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This might help, but then again, maybe not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJHls-r_Pp0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJHls-r_Pp0)
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someone remove that tree. see andy's signature
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(http://www.leopoldkroll.com/web/content/dnld/THE%20STUMP%201%20jpg.JPG)
This is the stump just before I did cornelius. The red line shows where I cropped it,it was a very dead and rotten bit of wood that was just falling apart. The other shoots and branches lower down that were making a come back as can be seen in one of the photos of Andi must have been cut off by someone else. It did honestly seem like I was just cutting away a few inches of dead wood.
I'm sorry if this has upset anyone, maybe it wasn't the right thing to do.
But I suppose Iv'e done it now and I have to live with my decision.
Good to see Ina's rock is getting some attention.
Mirf
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Mirf, that is clearly a rotten log. I can't see even the most foam flecked preservationist being critical of it's removal.
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if i looked like that I'd want chopping off at the red line
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Gotta be careful with your stump, eh...
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Thanks for the info Mirf. I agree with BJ, there's nothing you've done there that could give anyone grounds for criticism. But how did we get from this pic:
(http://www.zen59200.zen.co.uk/Adam/Galleries/Climbing/inastree.jpg)
to yours:
(http://www.leopoldkroll.com/web/content/dnld/THE%20STUMP%201%20jpg.JPG)
in only 12 months? Maybe there were (even) more folk coveting this line than we thought?
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The mystery woodcutter... maybe he'll strike again! :shrug:
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Thanks for the info Mirf. I agree with BJ, there's nothing you've done there that could give anyone grounds for criticism. But how did we get from this pic:
(http://www.zen59200.zen.co.uk/Adam/Galleries/Climbing/inastree.jpg)
to yours:
(http://www.leopoldkroll.com/web/content/dnld/THE%20STUMP%201%20jpg.JPG)
in only 12 months? Maybe there were (even) more folk coveting this line than we thought?
Fair enough. I can agree that everyone elses opinions are equally as valid as my own, maybe I'm stuck in a rut with this sort of stuff. You never know, it maycome back as bushy and bright as ever in spring with its dead wood removed, or (perhaps more likely) it has received the euthanasia it so rightly deserved.
I think your first picture could go in the 'shit, isn't that..' thread; on the left: Schlong swinging lady lover Mark Sharratt, on the right: Beyond the black stump rotting back snapper. I think the tree is doing a better spotting job anyhow.
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Andi, was it closer to A or B when you were last there?
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This saw another few ground up ascents the other day. Becoming quite the trade route!
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Just had a message of Gus saying that this weekends ascentionists think that the route is E3. Can't believe I was this far out, especially with JB's grade agreement. A bit gutting I think, makes me seem like an idiot who hasn't got a clue. Poo.
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Andi, first ascents are weird. You get fixed on a duff/nails sequence, obsessed into doing it one particular way. Then someone else wanders up it and knocks 5 grades off. So what? Looks like a cool route from what I've seen, thus nothing to be ashamed of.
Grades settle with time, don't worry about it.
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Just had a message of Gus saying that this weekends ascentionists think that the route is E3. Can't believe I was this far out, especially with JB's grade agreement. A bit gutting I think, makes me seem like an idiot who hasn't got a clue. Poo.
They said E4 in the end. Like us though they had a load of pads. Have you been back and tried the new sequence Andi?
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I think its still worth E7 though, it felt like an E6 6a but harder - E7 6b?
to
They said E4 in the end. Like us though they had a load of pads. Have you been back and tried the new sequence Andi?
Strange, or maybe it's just a boulder problem. Personally, I can't see how there could be any comparison between a route like Thumbelina and, say, His Eminance at Bowden, irrelevant of a change in sequence low down. It looks like me and JB need to go back to Grading School!
Have you done the route yet Adam? I've not been back up yet, so have not tried the 'new sequence', I'd need the numbers on it anyway because I don't know what the score is with it.
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The sequence is grab the undercut with your left hand, put your right toe in a small dish, left foot out on either a horizontal edge and throw for the pocket. This move is about Font 7a. E3 is probably being a bit unfair. The moves after the pocket are on very positive holds, and it's easy to reverse from the very last move if you like to a point where you can safely jump off. You don't generally get that on E5 grit solos, nevermind E6 or E7 (pads or no pads). The E5 to the right would be about E2 at Bowden, so it seems the grades down int Churnet are a bit off. We did The Pride as well which was v fluttery compared to Thumbelina. With pads, Thumbelina should really be regarded as a 3 star 7a high ball in the vein of Chef d'Oeuvre par example.
Now onto Cornelius - a different kettle of fish. We did it up to the jug, but no way was I going above that stump! It's probably 7b/7b+ to the jug, so I can see that V9 all the way to the top might be spot on. It would be a better climb without the stump and I'm baffled about all this talk of "taking it personally" if the stump was removed. It really would be one of the best ground uppable highballs around. It's been cut down to a flat top anyway which you can balance a pad on, so it does rather feel like a half done job.
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Andi I presume you graded it for an on-sight solo without pads, as the adjectival grade is conventionally used, and gave it a fair grade for the general Peak area (i.e. you didn't grade it for a ground-up ascent above a stack of pads in comparison to Northumberland of all places where the grades are totally fucked up anyway).
In which case I wouldn't worry about your accuracy until somebody actually does it as an onsight solo without pads and see if they disagree with your estimate.
Not that I think there is anything at all wrong with people speculating / estimating from a different style of ascent, but it is comparing....apples and pears...
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I'd agree with Fiend. Postulating the grade of a bouldery route above an army of mats and spotters is different to postulating a grade after a headpoint, but it is still just guesswork.
Any of the recent repeaters think they'd have done it on-sight/ground-up whatever without mats?
NOTE: I'm not saying the matted ground-up/flash/onsight isn't a stylistic step forward. IMHO it is but it is still a distance from a true on-sight solo of this route.
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T_B is correct in everything he says. Grades must be consistent, and I don't really go trad climbing so I can't offer any advice on trad grades. However, they are ordinal, and Thumbelina can't be easier than that E5 starting at the shield, which means that the E5 should be about E1. It would be far easier to give these things accurate font grades, making them clearly ordinal, and letting people know exactly what they are in for. Boulderers don't mind highballs, but they don't like E7's. My vote would be for scrapping E grades altogether on these things and sticking with bouldering grades, which are more accurate in my opinion. There is a crag in font with boulder problems higher than Thumbelina, and people just regard them as highballs so they take appropriate padding. This is how I approach the things in the Churnet. They are highball, so take enough pads.
I'm planning on going back on Wednesday to do Cornelius if anyone wants to join in the fun. I'm not going to cut the stump down (as I've written previously), but if someone else wants to then I wouldn't stop them. Come on down!
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It would be far easier to give these things accurate font grades, making them clearly ordinal, and letting people know exactly what they are in for. Boulderers don't mind highballs, but they don't like E7's. My vote would be for scrapping E grades altogether on these things and sticking with bouldering grades, which are more accurate in my opinion. There is a crag in font with boulder problems higher than Thumbelina, and people just regard them as highballs so they take appropriate padding. This is how I approach the things in the Churnet. They are highball, so take enough pads.
:agree:
The hypothetical onsight without pads might well be worth E7 or whatever but the likelehood is that that aint gonna happen very often so a grade which everyone can understand (i.e. 7A highball) makes much more sense to me. It doesn't stop anyone from doing it without pads and claiming whatever E grade they like if they're into that sort of thing.
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highball 7a? what nonsense. will we still think that when it claims it's first victim
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highball 7a? what nonsense. will we still think that when it claims it's first victim
Has Tomahawk been upgraded to E8 since foley broke his ankle? I didn't realise that's how it worked. Someone, perhaps you, should alert the rest of the world that after someone gets injured on a boulder problem it should be upgraded to something on the E scale.
Normally your posts are both humorous and truthful, in this case it is humorous and completely retarded.
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My view of a highball, is a probelm where (when using a spotter or two and a couple of pads) you are likely to fall off at any point and walk away with (probability not withstanding) only a dented pride. For me, Thumbalia does not fall within that catagory. Okay, the holds on the headwall are all postive and can be reversed to relative safety, but man, that top move is a pop and a heart-flutterer for anyone < 6ft!
Maybe problems in Font and The States are higher than Thumb', and given bouldering grades, but that is the local style and the grades reflect that. Thumb' and Cornelious are routes on a typically trad crag, the only difference is the lack of gear resulting in both routes being solo's. Does this automatically make them highballs instead of routes? I think not.
As for The Pride being more fluttery than Thumb' :-\
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My view of a highball, is a probelm where (when using a spotter or two and a couple of pads) you are likely to fall off at any point and walk away with (probability not withstanding) only a dented pride. For me, Thumbalia does not fall within that catagory. Okay, the holds on the headwall are all postive and can be reversed to relative safety, but man, that top move is a pop and a heart-flutterer for anyone < 6ft!
Maybe problems in Font and The States are higher than Thumb', and given bouldering grades, but that is the local style and the grades reflect that. Thumb' and Cornelious are routes on a typically trad crag, the only difference is the lack of gear resulting in both routes being solo's. Does this automatically make them highballs instead of routes? I think not.
As for The Pride being more fluttery than Thumb' :-\
No Offense mini, but I don't think you have a clue what highball means in that case. The description you have written above is probably a good one for general non highball bouldering. Highballing is exactly that. It's high! Just look at the things Kevin Jorgeson has climbed in Bishop, or the things Zangerl has climbed in Austria/Switzerland, or the things at Sablibum in Font. They are HIGH. That's the difference between bouldering and highballing, and that is why there is a distinction in name.
This could easily be a case of tomaydo tomato, but I'm more inclined to say it's a case of people not willing to call a highball a highball.
One more thing. Things like Samson have become highballs with the advent of bigger and better pads. This is inevitable. People who are holding on to their lofty E grades are only doing so because they are closer to the top end of the scale and thus it's easier to have a good old ego wank. Going out and doing a 7B+ boulder problem isn't very impressive, but telling someone you've done an E8 is still revered as more worthy. Just the sad remains of an old institution of thought that luckily only remains in place in a small part of a small country!
Also, No offence to anyone in particular. This is not a personal attack, if it was, your name would be here.
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Whilst I do see your point Uncle surely you would concede that to walk up to <insert name of suitable potential highball> without a collection of modern mats and spotters can make these things a very different proposition.
I imagine you wouldn't claim to have ground-upped E7 on this occasion (I don't know whether you have at other times). However I maintain that someone could still ground-up/on-sight this route at E7 (or whatever the final grade settles at). The two gradings (and I suppose the two 'routes') can co-exist on the same piece of rock, it is the approach that is different.
Or maybe I'm just a sad old-timer clinging to my ego wanks....
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I hear someone used 10 mats on Doug. Highball font 7a? {runs and hides}
Imagine you have a 10m font 7c, with a flat landing. With pads it's a safe-ish, highball font 7c. So without mats is it a less-safe, highball 7c, or an E7? Transfer the same route to a bad landing. Is it now E7 or highball 7c?
There's a gray area between bouldering and routes. Always has been, but with improving technology of mats, better preparation, less safe stuff has been done as a "highball".
At the end of the day, my definition of highball is something I shat me pants on. Although, nowadays they tend to be problems above 3 metres :-[
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An E7 with pads underneath it is still an E7. E7 means that if you walked up to it onsight with no mats then this is how hard it would feel, regardless of how you actually did it. Same as if you toprope an E7, the route it still an E7. What I'm saying is its the route that is graded, not each individual ascent, which I think is a point that some people miss, and try to overcomplicate in this (and many other cases) case.
This perceived need to grade ascents rather than routes seems a bit of an ego crutch, like we need a number to validate ourselves. An E7 with mats underneath does not become an E4. In the same way that soloing a geared E1 does not make it an E4. Or doing an E4 in terrible condition or with the wrong sequence does not make it E7.
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Dave, your point illustrates ever so well the failing of the trad grading system. It's rather funny actually. If I substituted font 7A with E7 in your post it would all make perfect sense. An E grade is one that takes into account the relevant danger of a route, and this is part of the British Trad grading system. I'm not proposing a vast overhaul of this system as it works alright most of the time. However, E7 does not describe the actual difficulty of the route, and this is where the problem becomes more complex.
If we take the case of Thumbelina, the british trad grading system is suggesting that it be graded for an Onsight ascent with no pads. This is because of how the system began, and where it came from. The problem lies in the fact that it makes no sense to grade a short solo for an onsight ascent with no pads in this day and age. I really think it's time to "get with the times". Is Thumbelina more similar to Master's Wall or to Renegade Master? Today, it makes no sense to approach these short solo's without pads in order to make them more dangerous. This is effectively what is happening. If I went to Bishop to attempt one of the highball lines there and went with no pads people would think I was stupid. They wouldn't think I had big cahonies, or give me extra credit for it. It would simply be a case of making the route more dangerous than necessary which doesn't seem very sensible to me. Why grade Thumbelina for a style of ascent that it will likely never get, when a highball boulder grade would prove far more information, seem more inviting and allow more people to enjoy it.
At the end of the day, everyone is climbing the same bit of rock regardless of how you choose to grade it. My thoughts are that grades should convey as much information as possible about the actual difficulty of climbing a piece of rock, ESPECIALLY in the case when there is no rope and no gear. I realise that other people may think differently. All this really isn't a problem for me personally, because I have never done a first ascent or had to grade something for everyone else.
GCW and Nik - Valid points. I'm just of the school of thought that you should make things as safe as you possibly can when you need to. Perhaps this is what happens when you spend too much time bouldering.
I'm genuinely sorry for turning this into a grading debate, and I really wish I hadn't said anything now. The route's at Ina's Rock are good and everyone should go and enjoy them!
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GCW and Nik - Valid points. I'm just of the school of thought that you should make things as safe as you possibly can when you need to. Perhaps this is what happens when you spend too much time bouldering.
Unc, I don't argue with that at all. Like I say, if I get scared it's a solo. If not it's bouldering.
If I put a ton of spikey rocks under West Side Story before I do it without pads, can I claim E7? No, that's just silly.
And I'd have the same opinion about routes/problems that are eminently made safer by using pads.
Which is what you are saying.
At the end of the day it's just grades, but I'd still vote for risk reduction whenever possible, mainly 'cos I'm a big wuss :-[
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Firstly, theres no reason you can't have an adjecteval grade AND a font grade. The current BMC guide in effect do this already with E-grades and V-grades coexisting on some problem/routes.
Secondly, you need to grade things from a certain baseline, hence grading for an ascent onsight with no pads - even if a route never gets done like this. And I'll tell you for why; because its as near as we're going to get to an absolute baseline. If you start to say grade stuff for doing with pads (which would in many ways be a good idea) then you've got to define a standard mat. A single Pod mat inside 6 months old, used no more than 3 times a week, with 2 spotters? but what if you turn up with 6 giant moons, 6 spotters and an inflatable mat? you'll have to use your imagination and common sense to subtract some relative danger....which is incidentally exactly what you have to do when turning up to a non-mat graded trad highball and stick your choice of mat underneath. There isn't and can never be a meaningful standard of mat for grading (not that it won't stop people from trying I'm sure) so you might as well grade from a level playing field, and have both bouldering and route grades.
(This is a bit similar in a way to the way routes are graded. although its probably unspoken and unwritten, most routes are graded these days assuming the general rack of nuts 1-10, cams 0-4 and whatever hexes you need. Route that generally require specific kit like RPs, robert ne neros, massive cams or skyhoos, pegs etc will generally specify in the description or in the guide intro somewhere. I see this as analagous to the no mat thing. you could try and define a standardised mat but I think the range of matting options and the effect this has on a fall is greater than with trad gear. for example some falls you'd be fine with a brand new Pod mat but probably break your ankles through the same mat 3 years later. in contrast, if you fall off a route onto a #5 nut on a single rope it ain't going to matter if its the latest anodised nut and ultralight rope, or a furry 11mm rope you found in a skip and that old moac nut you got out of 20foot crack, you're still going to survive. (obviously this is a gross simplification with obvious glaring exceptions, but you get the drift.))
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Dave, I can also see where you're coming from.
If a problem is font 7b we know how hard it will be. Danger isn't a major factor.
Brit Trad grades are for an onsight, matless ascent. Fair enough.
But for a problem/route that is never done matless, is there any point in giving it a trad grade? Why not just say highball font xx?
Everyone has a brain to judge a route/problem with. If it's clearly a death-on-a-stick-solo, an E-grade is probably more appropriate. if it can be well padded and spotted, do so and take the font grade.
If you like going out and soloing hard routes on your own, on sight, with no pads, I'll be happy for you take to take the E-grade, you fucking nutter you :lol:
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My thoughts are that grades should convey as much information as possible about the actual difficulty of climbing a piece of rock
When you say "highball 7A" I understand that to mean a reasonably bold 7A climber would stand a good chance of ground-upping this climb, above a few pads and with a spotter or two. Do you think that's the case? I'm genuinely interested as I think Thumbelina looks awesome, but 7A is hard for me.
I think I'm right in saying that everyone that's done it so far has a solid background of either hard bouldering, hard trad or both. Is it perhaps only "highball 7A" once you have the 8A strength to make everything controlled? :-\
Surely the most appropriate grade is the one that gives people the best indication of whether they can climb it or not. It would be a bit perverse to have a highball 7A that 7A climbers can't touch, or an E4 that only gets done by E7 leaders.
Anyway, Ina’s Rock looks sweet. Good effort to all those that have done Thumbelina, and thanks for the inspiring photos.
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I don't think there's as much of a problem with grading as people want to think there is.
English grades work well to describe the difficulty and danger for a standard style of ascent.
The bouldering grade (with or without highball suffix) works well to describe difficult and some danger for another, now-standard style of ascent.
There's no qualitive distinction between the two as grades and no need for ego-wanking unless people really want to force those unneccessary issues into the arena.
Both combined work well to give the best information about a route / problem / highball / micro-route (especially given it's a grey area and especially since two....species of climber will be approaching such climbs from different directions).
Simple yes??
Incidentally, Font 7a = V6 = solid 6b = E6-ish as a solo?? So it all makes sense...
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Uncle, just cos you soloed a route doesn't make you an authority on declaring it a highball.
Does this now mean every route that you solo will be downgraded to a boulder problem and given a font grade?
Ask Johnny what font grade he thinks goliaths groove is - 5+?
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I assume this is the sort of thing Keith's big-bollocked European chums dole out bouldering grades to:
(http://i38.tinypic.com/2l6ced.jpg)
It makes you wonder if anything south of the Shelterstone deserves an E grade at all. On this evidence, I'd suggest not.
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daves right with you need to describe things as highball 7a with one pad.not everybody goes out in a big team armed with upteen mats.at queens crag in the county there various stuff called highballs which are clearly routes,however they be highballs if you find the large gym mat thats hidden in a crevice under the crag.
will we all need to start hiring helichopters to fly in sufficent padding.
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I assume this is the sort of thing Keith's big-bollocked European chums dole out bouldering grades to:
(http://i38.tinypic.com/2l6ced.jpg)
It makes you wonder if anything south of the Shelterstone deserves an E grade at all. On this evidence, I'd suggest not.
basically if someone falls off a route once and doesn't die then its a highball. Anyone for widdop wall?
(i've been up to that block in the above photo, its pretty fucking massive chunk of stone. makes bishop look like burbage south boulders.)
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Obviously a controversial current subject. Here's another big grade debate but this time focusing upon a much more serious proposition... http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=321574&v=1 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=321574&v=1) You really couldn't justify giving a highball grade to the monster of a route that's involved in that thread surely? I can't believe there's even suggestions that it could be bouldered out. ;) Total recklessness...
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Amazing.
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I'm no longer amazed by anything on UKC after a thread the other week arguing Sharma's Clark Mountain route was artificially making things harder by not belaying halfway and was thus an eliminate. This was taken very seriously.
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I'm no longer amazed by anything on UKC after a thread the other week arguing Sharma's Clark Mountain route was artificially making things harder by not belaying halfway and was thus an eliminate. This was taken very seriously.
After there had been an argument as to whether the word "send" should be used in a news article...
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Uncle, maybe it is tomaydo tomato. I just guess from reading what people write that for a lot of them, using a trad grade tells them a lot about certain routes. It is how they understand grades. I have never done / tried Thumbelina so i have no idea, but I have seen it, and for a route that size, whatever the technical difficulty, my mind would probably work in terms of 'E'. That's just how I would compare it to other similar climbs. Maybe it's being older, but if I am at that height, I feel like I am soloing, not bouldering. Perhaps being told that the climbing is 7a would be a very useful extra piece of info.
The E grade is useful to me, as it has been how similar routes that I have done have been graded - The Alliance, Chip Shop Brawl, Art Nouveau, Nick Nack Paddywack - they have all been about Highball 7a, but they stacked up differently in terms of how hard they were for me overall. And that order, interestingly, corresponds quick tightly with their E grades.
I really don't think that people are giveing E grades for wank purposes. I don't think Andi was strutting around Leek with an E7 badge on for a week. I think he and Johnny might have felt that the number represented their experience. I'm sure they would both be willing to accept that for you, it was a 7a boulder problem.
I'm sorry this was turned into a grading debate too. Having seen Thumbelina, and knowing what it meant to Andi to climb it, this thread makes it seem like the route has now been pissed all over.
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Well said Grimer.
If I were to try this route I would do it as a route solo and as such the E7 grade would be most meaningful to me. It just seems to high to be called bouldering from my perspective. But then I started as a trad climber and have come into bouldering.
It would seem uncle that you are a boulderer through and through (although I know you have in the past done routes I think we can both agree that you are essentially a boulderer). As such it is unsurprising that you find the highball 7a description more "useful".
I don't think anyone is pissing all over the route. It has had several repeats in the last week, doubtless more than any other E7 I imagine, by some very good climbers. Which is brilliant. I imagine Andi is really psyched that so many people want to travel to a relative backwater to climb one of his routes, I know I would be. The subsequent debate is interesting.
Now if anybody wants to go to Rivelin and sort out the upturned tree stump landing below Thats My Lot to give another popular and high quality highball at a relative backwater then you have my blessing. God knows it could do with some interest and repeats....
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good knowledge jim. uncle is clearly out of his mind
i can't think of anything humorous to say
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Ned is a beast, but doesn't flash E7s
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Bang on Grimer.
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I have an opinion on this subject... but keepin schtoom!
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I have an opinion on this subject... but keepin schtoom!
Is that because the English language is an inadequate tool for trying to convey the subtlties and complexities of the processes churning within your mind?
Or are you just chicken?
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It would be a bit perverse to have a highball 7A that 7A climbers can't touch, or an E4 that only gets done by E7 leaders.
I think Sammo has hit the nail on the head here. Whilst some have had success and like to crow about it with a downgrade, we haven't heard so much from those who didn't get up it have we? Which includes plenty for whom neither 7A nor E4 would be out of the question.
I said above, on the second ascent it felt like an E6 6a though harder, by that I meant the start was not 6a; the grade fits the top half pretty well though. Compare to something similar, say Mint 400, E6 at Froggatt, which has harder moves though shorter and an easier escape. Oedipus next door is E4 and a rather easier proposition than either. Yes the routes to the right are overgraded, the left might just be E5 but the right one is not.
Unfortunately I think this is a route where being tall makes a big difference, the three hardest moves all have a big reach element, I'm not suprised Tom B found it easy, I remember thinking 'someone like Sellers would really piss this...' that doesn't make it easy for everyone. With some routes being that bit stronger than is required for the grade can really make them feel very easy.
I propose sending Fiend up as our standard E4/5 climber.
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Last time you were proposing a vote of no-confidence in Fiend - I think I liked that idea more!!
I do think people like to get their knickers in a twist about grading by firstly applying some sort of qualitive judgement to different grading systems, and secondly assuming that the grading system is more complex and obscure than it actually is. It's just a piece of information that describes expected and relative difficulty and tends to pretty much make sense as long as styles of ascent are clear...
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I think it's a great idea. On sight, no pads of course to get the E grade eh Fiend? ;)
It's just a piece of information that describes expected and relative difficulty and tends to pretty much make sense as long as styles of ascent are clear...
Good point.
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This is a really tricky and quite interesting area of discussion and worthy of it's own thread. The problem as I see it is that in the UK we have 3 grading systems bouldering / trad / bolted. Whereas elsewhere ie France it is primarily a double grading system ie bouldering and routes. Hence taking Font as an example, they have no option but to stick to bouldering grades and state that it is highball because what sense would there be in giving the problem a bolted french grade? In the UK we can of course say that it is now so high that it is more like a route and so I will give it a trad grade. Now the demarcation between what is a problem and what is a route becomes even trickier as pads become thicker and more importantly how many mates you have with you and so how many mats you have under you. There is no easy answer but why not just give the route 2 grades, one as a highball boulder problem assuming mats and all, but also as a route with only a rope and gear. This is not so mad as it sounds because look at routes like Mint400 and Narcissus. These routes are no higher than the problem in question but do you really think we should do away with the Trad grade and give them boulder problem grades - I think not.
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I have an opinion on this subject... but keepin schtoom!
;D I'm intrigued; Does this show you soloing an e4 or bloddering a 7b? ;)
(http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1p39_4YMNpT1A2QC43sseY3OJPPVbtvZJgiu4yi9-2hUiq5_tIMHIXna1AubPVpxmBmvgo5vkKPZs)
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This is a really tricky and quite interesting area of discussion and worthy of it's own thread. The problem as I see it is that in the UK we have 3 grading systems bouldering / trad / bolted. Whereas elsewhere ie France it is primarily a double grading system ie bouldering and routes. Hence taking Font as an example, they have no option but to stick to bouldering grades and state that it is highball because what sense would there be in giving the problem a bolted french grade? In the UK we can of course say that it is now so high that it is more like a route and so I will give it a trad grade. Now the demarcation between what is a problem and what is a route becomes even trickier as pads become thicker and more importantly how many mates you have with you and so how many mats you have under you. There is no easy answer but why not just give the route 2 grades, one as a highball boulder problem assuming mats and all, but also as a route with only a rope and gear. This is not so mad as it sounds because look at routes like Mint400 and Narcissus. These routes are no higher than the problem in question but do you really think we should do away with the Trad grade and give them boulder problem grades - I think not.
Word.
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This is a really tricky and quite interesting area of discussion and worthy of it's own thread. The problem as I see it is that in the UK we have 3 grading systems bouldering / trad / bolted. Whereas elsewhere ie France it is primarily a double grading system ie bouldering and routes. Hence taking Font as an example, they have no option but to stick to bouldering grades and state that it is highball because what sense would there be in giving the problem a bolted french grade? In the UK we can of course say that it is now so high that it is more like a route and so I will give it a trad grade. Now the demarcation between what is a problem and what is a route becomes even trickier as pads become thicker and more importantly how many mates you have with you and so how many mats you have under you. There is no easy answer but why not just give the route 2 grades, one as a highball boulder problem assuming mats and all, but also as a route with only a rope and gear. This is not so mad as it sounds because look at routes like Mint400 and Narcissus. These routes are no higher than the problem in question but do you really think we should do away with the Trad grade and give them boulder problem grades - I think not.
I think you've just made my point for me. There are 2 options to make a route safe, either bouldering pads if it's a reasonable height, or a rope and gear if it's much higher. The way to distinguish between the two options is that we go with the one that makes it safer. At least that is logical tenet of trying to minimise risk rather than increase it, which I think we all do. Thumbelina doesn't require a rope or gear, so why give it a grade for rope and gear ascent? Why not give it a grade that assumes you are going to make it as safe as possible? In this case, lacking a rope and gear, the safest way is with mats, so I presume it would be graded for mats.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter. The system won't change and it's not a real problem in any sense because I can assess something regardless of whether it's E8 or font7B. It is only a problem when it comes to a grand theory of unification. I feel ya Albert.
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It is only a problem when it comes to a grand theory of unification. I feel ya Albert.
And it might be a while before we see that (http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-10049188-76.html).
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With all the talk of bouldering grades or mutings that Thumb' felt more like an E4, it seems 3 of the casting votes still think its E7, though soft at the grade...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=66252 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=66252)
:-\
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Thumbelina doesn't require a rope or gear
Really Keith? If that were true I think you'd still be up there, yelling at passers by to throw you scraps of food. Out of interest, how did everyone else get back down?
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Thumbelina doesn't require a rope or gear
Really Keith? If that were true I think you'd still be up there, yelling at passers by to throw you scraps of food. Out of interest, how did everyone else get back down?
Rappel. We were beta-ed up to the eyeballs.
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Brilliant, two more reasons for you to find it easy. I'll take E7 for the downclimb then.
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Brilliant, two more reasons for you to find it easy. I'll take E7 for the downclimb then.
And I once traversed off the break of West Side Story cos I was scared.
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adding a bouldering grade to a route serves no purpose at all.
There are loads of routes with no gear on them that require soloing. What font grade for 3 blind mice? knocking? etc...
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With all the talk of bouldering grades or mutings that Thumb' felt more like an E4, it seems 3 of the casting votes still think its E7, though soft at the grade...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=66252 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=66252)
:-\
You get to vote three times for each route - E grade, tech and qual. So most likely one person has voted.
Font/V grades are increasingly useful on a lot of short routes with flat (ish) landings. Sole Power E5 6c (Font 7c?). Stanage Without Oxygen E5 6c (Font 7b?), The Sphinx E5 6c (Font 7a+?).
So by all means take the E number if you're there on your own sans pad, but if it's a nice flat landing and you can fall off in control, I'll be putting my pad down. I don't recall seeing many people trying these routes without pads in the past few years, though I seem to remember JB once saying to me that he made a point of not taking a pad to the crag!? Would Ron have used a pad on Careless Torque if they had existed?
I note that Andi did Thumbelina with "a couple of pads". I would expect that most folk will do it with a couple of pads and maybe a spotter or two. I know it's a bit higher than your standard UK 'highball' but the location of the crux and nature of the climbing puts it in the highball category for me. And to my mind it makes more sense to give it a Font/V grade than call it E7. That's not to "p*ss all over" Andi's route or "crow", just to say it's a very 'tryable' and excellent highball, which should be considered by the bouldering masses. Just a shame Cornelius has that darn stump below it.
So why does it matter? Well, in an area such as the Peak, there aint much new going to go in bouldering guidebooks every time they are published. So you get link ups like La Terrace and god knows what sit down one move wonder filling the pages. If one's gaze were only to drift upwards towards Neferiti or Stanage Without Oxygen, for example, the boulderer, clutching his or her Moon Saturn, suddenly has a new problem to try. Remember West Side Story was E4 7a once!
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You're preaching to the converted here Tom, the only quibble I have is with it being E4.
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This is a really tricky and quite interesting area of discussion and worthy of it's own thread. The problem as I see it is that in the UK we have 3 grading systems bouldering / trad / bolted. Whereas elsewhere ie France it is primarily a double grading system ie bouldering and routes. Hence taking Font as an example, they have no option but to stick to bouldering grades and state that it is highball because what sense would there be in giving the problem a bolted french grade? In the UK we can of course say that it is now so high that it is more like a route and so I will give it a trad grade. Now the demarcation between what is a problem and what is a route becomes even trickier as pads become thicker and more importantly how many mates you have with you and so how many mats you have under you. There is no easy answer but why not just give the route 2 grades, one as a highball boulder problem assuming mats and all, but also as a route with only a rope and gear. This is not so mad as it sounds because look at routes like Mint400 and Narcissus. These routes are no higher than the problem in question but do you really think we should do away with the Trad grade and give them boulder problem grades - I think not.
I think you've just made my point for me. There are 2 options to make a route safe, either bouldering pads if it's a reasonable height, or a rope and gear if it's much higher. The way to distinguish between the two options is that we go with the one that makes it safer. At least that is logical tenet of trying to minimise risk rather than increase it, which I think we all do. Thumbelina doesn't require a rope or gear, so why give it a grade for rope and gear ascent? Why not give it a grade that assumes you are going to make it as safe as possible? In this case, lacking a rope and gear, the safest way is with mats, so I presume it would be graded for mats.
I think you're extrapolating a bit much from Travs' post there. He's saying that because a route has two main forms of ascent AND two main grades that provide the best information for each of those ascents, that, well, it's fine to have two grades. Not that because one form of ascent is now much more popular that it should only be graded for one form and the other grade discarded.
At the end of the day it's all about INFORMATION. Not about "taking" grades but USING them. Adjectival grades still provide useful information to some people, even if they're not likely to be climbing them in that style.
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giving it a font grade is misleading.
at least 95% of boulderers who might want to try this won't, because its a route.
Also how many boulder problems do you need a rope to get down from or do a traverse of death or downclimb an E2?
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You're preaching to the converted here Tom, the only quibble I have is with it being E4.
I never said it was E4! If you look back earlier in the thread, that was the Adam Lincoln. He has not spoken to me about it. He chose to put a bit of banter twixt him and Bob on here, but I was trying to be diplomatic in my original post :) The point I was trying to make was that it's very hard to grade this sort of route, so better to give it a highball grade.
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Aye, you did say:
E3 is probably being a bit unfair. The moves after the pocket are on very positive holds, and it's easy to reverse from the very last move if you like to a point where you can safely jump off. You don't generally get that on E5 grit solos, nevermind E6 or E7 (pads or no pads).
though!
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You're preaching to the converted here Tom, the only quibble I have is with it being E4.
I never said it was E4! If you look back earlier in the thread, that was the Adam Lincoln. He has not spoken to me about it. He chose to put a bit of banter twixt him and Bob on here, but I was trying to be diplomatic in my original post :) The point I was trying to make was that it's very hard to grade this sort of route, so better to give it a highball grade.
I didn't name any names Tom, it could have been anyone. You chose to say it was you, not me.
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This is getting bloody ridiculous.
Johnny, purely out of interest, how did Thumbelina differ as an experience from Angel's Share, which I think you did give a V grade to? This isn't meant to be a provocative question but a genuine attempt to get at what separates a route from a highball.
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You're preaching to the converted here Tom, the only quibble I have is with it being E4.
I never said it was E4! If you look back earlier in the thread, that was the Adam Lincoln. He has not spoken to me about it. He chose to put a bit of banter twixt him and Bob on here, but I was trying to be diplomatic in my original post :) The point I was trying to make was that it's very hard to grade this sort of route, so better to give it a highball grade.
I didn't name any names Tom, it could have been anyone. You chose to say it was you, not me.
I tried to make a point in response that it's too difficult to give these things E grades. I said "The moves after the pocket are on very positive holds, and it's easy to reverse from the very last move if you like to a point where you can safely jump off. You don't generally get that on E5 grit solos, nevermind E6 or E7 (pads or no pads)."
In other words it didn't feel like an E5 solo in the vein of White Wand or Ulysses or Bust to me (above pads). Hence all the talk and refreshingly honest posts from Uncle about how highball font grades should perhaps be adopted for this type of route. But that seems to have been lost along the way. Hey ho.
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In our world there is no black and there is no white, there are only shades of grey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7LnhWOIgg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7LnhWOIgg)
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You don't generally get that on E5 grit solos, nevermind E6 or E7 (pads or no pads)."
In other words it didn't feel like an E5 solo in the vein of White Wand or Ulysses or Bust to me (above pads)
We differ there then. I find Ulysses or Bust rather less committing - both easier to reverse, and less of a jump to get off.
Johnny, purely out of interest, how did Thumbelina differ as an experience from Angel's Share, which I think you did give a V grade to?
Well I certainly wouldn't be happy to fall off the last move of Thumbelina once let alone repeatedly.
Just for the record, I'm not trying to defend this as an E7. I totally agree 7A+ makes plenty of sense. What doesn't make sense is folk calling it E3 or 4. E6 I think is realistic without pads. I think you need both grades to make full sense of it, as Jim said 95% of 7a+ boulderers are going to turn straight round.
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Hi everyone.
Just to add my two penneth worth, I'm a little bit sad to see that this has deteriorated into a grade debate, and hope that the route, which is probably one of the best in the Churnet, doesn't get overshadowed by this.
I spotted Andi on the first ascent, it was a really special day, and I know how proud Andi was of the route (and still should be whatever people think on the grade)
It's worth noting that Andi's ascent was probably the only one to use the original sequence to get the pocket (a really committing foot lock, almost by your head, followed by a powerful stretch/ lock to the pocket.) On the day we were both very aware that this was pretty serious, with this move nearly half way up the route, falling off it, in that position would have been way more serious than even jumping off from the very top, and would likely deposit you on the deck head/ back first.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, on that day it felt like Andi was climbing an e7, and from my side, it felt to me that I was spotting someone on a route of this grade, both on the crux move and near the top.
It does sound like a new sequence has reduced the seriousness of the route somewhat, but I think Andi's initial assessment on that day was still pretty accurate!
All being said it's a top class route, and if all this attention means people are heading to Ina's rock to try it, or The Churnet in general, then that's agood thing, and again reflects the quality of the route, and the crag.
Cheers
Gus
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I think you need both grades to make full sense of it, as Jim said 95% of 7a+ boulderers are going to turn straight round.
I recon 100% of 7a+ boulderers are going to walk away from this one.
Uncle's done fb8b, you've done fb8a and I have also seen you dancing about on the top of E6's in your trainers. Andi's no slouch either.
I recon the way Andi did the crux move would be fucking scary, trying to put my foot up alone was scary enough, let alone locking it in and going horizontal
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Tried to do it again today, rather half heartedly, and shat it. Not E3 or E4.
On the other hand, Ben found a much better sequence for the downclimb, which even Keith repeated without trouble, so I think we can say the abseil off is no longer the easiest option.
Ben and Keith both did Cornelius ground-up. Bravo.
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I have nothing to say about the route, but this thread is ace.
Some really good, well thought out opinions being expressed.
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Ben and Keith both did Cornelius ground-up. Bravo.
Bravo indeed!
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Dare I ask, is it E8?
Just joking, good effort. Lots of people on here armchair debating to abstraction whilst others are out actually climbing. Show us the way pathfinders...
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I suppose I should offer my opinion/thoughts on this route now that I've done it. I'm firmly planted in the school of thought that puts this as a highball. I think this is predominantly I'm a boulderer, nothing else, so I approach things without ropes/gear as boulder problems. I wrote a bit on my blog about it, but basically, what I bring to this discussion is primarily only my own opinion and that is one of a boulderer. I'm not a pussy either and I'm very comfortable soloing actual routes that are well within my limit, in fact I very much enjoy it. Some boulderers don't like any sort of height, regardless of how much within their comfort zone is. That's totally fine and I don't think it's any better/worse. But I know my level rather well, and I know what I can do easily, with some difficulty, and with extreme perseverance. I said to Adam today that if Thumbelina had been 8A and the crux was near the top it is more than likely I wouldn't have done it. That's a bit too hard for me to do high up, but I'd still regard it as a highball, just a hard one (for me). After more thought on the subject I really do think it's a case of tomaydo/tomato. Ultimately people use grades to accurately gauge the difficulty of a piece of rock. For me, as a boulderer, it makes far more sense (ie. gives ME more info) to give a highball font grade to these things. To Grimer, whose background is very different to mine, an E grade might prove more useful. So I guess one isn't better than the other in any meta sense because they are both arbitrary and abstract concepts anyway.
In that vein, I think Cornelius is a highball 7C. I also think that the crux is the move to the break and I personally found that move much harder than the others (regardless of the danger factor). I also think that it is a completely different level to Thumbelina. I stick by my original thoughts that Thumbelina is 7A+ and Cornelius is 7C. I'm sure, as users of UKB, you know the difference between those two grades! The crux is also higher up. You can see it in the pics actually, presented here so you don't have to read the other verbal diarrhea on my blog. As you do the crux of Thumbelina, your going to a handhold which is actually just below the height of my right foot in this picture. [pictures copyright of Adam Long]
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/unclesomebody/cornelius.jpg)
By the way, it looks much higher than it really is because Adam is a great photographer and Ben is a small human.
I think Ben could give another side of the nature of these routes, as he is an extremely experienced and accomplished trad climber. I think he would be in a MUCH better position to tell you about the various E grades of these things. Look out for his upcoming pro blog (or was that a joke?).
Oh, about the stump. It's still there. I don't personally care what happens to it, but it is alive as Adam pointed out today.
Finally, both Thumbelina and Cornelius are mighty fine routes with great climbing. If you can bear to tear yourselves away from ukb/rubicon/stanage (delete as appropriate) then I can highly recommend a visit to the Churnet. Props to Rob who did the FA of Cornelius, it's a fine effort doing it on his own. Bonne grimpe mes amis.
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So you trusted Ben bouncing you with the pad more than you did me. I feel hurt..... ;)
Good effort Keith, fine effort. Was it all over when you grab the jug on the arete?
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looking on uncles blog it looks a lot smaller in some of the other pics and therefore some of the grades appear to make a little more sense in my head.
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don't be fooled paul, it really is that big.
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Well done, that's a great effort from both of you. Well done to Ben for on-sighting Thumbelina too, great effort, I can't believe how many sequences are being produced for the crux, amazing :thumbsup:
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Finally, both Thumbelina and Cornelius are mighty fine routes with great climbing.
:whistle: Well there we go ;)
Anyway...
After more thought on the subject I really do think it's a case of tomaydo/tomato. Ultimately people use grades to accurately gauge the difficulty of a piece of rock. For me, as a boulderer, it makes far more sense (ie. gives ME more info) to give a highball font grade to these things. To Grimer, whose background is very different to mine, an E grade might prove more useful. So I guess one isn't better than the other in any meta sense because they are both arbitrary and abstract concepts anyway.
Totally agree with that. It's mostly just a difference of approach / background / what information format one is used to. Highball / micro-route / short solo - different terms for the same thing, there's no qualitive difference just a personal descriptive difference. Covering more bases, within reason, is a good thing. Like in the BMC guides where they give boulder problems V grades AND tech grades - some boulderers may sniff at that (but equally I know routers who contemn bouldering grades), but it gives information to everyone, routers will find the tech grade useful to compare to what they know.
Having said all that, I still look at the photo above with you in full on bouldering mode, and think "fuck me that looks like a route" ;)
And more importantly...
If you can bear to tear yourselves away from ukb/rubicon/stanage (delete as appropriate) then I can highly recommend a visit to the Churnet.
Word to that. It is great that more offcomers are going down there - it was funny meeting you guys en-route. There's a lot to explore in the Churnizzle.
So...
I propose sending Fiend up as our standard E4/5 climber.
Well, your standard E2/3 climber finally hauled his scraped carcass around the lip of Atlas, and I can confirm that is....
Highball F6a+, of course.
Nah fuck that, it's all well high up there - I placed 3 bits of gear before I reached the mid-height ledge - looking along to ledge to the top of Thumbelina gave me the willies just thinking about it!! How do people get down from there?? I couldn't see any favourable options.
They are both amazing looking routeballs. As is Innaccessible as a full route - has that been done? And who's up for the Thumbelinaccessible link?
Also, new line around the left of Cornelius? Start around the little plant in the low break, big moves to the lip and rightwards into the obvious faint scoop/runnel?
Finally (mercifully), the stump. Fuck the stump I say. JB might have seen signs of life but it looked very minor and stump-like to me. You're surrounded by a woodland of beautiful big trees, no-one, not even Mother Nature, is going to miss this small decaying stump. IMO anyway.
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Left of Cornelius is 'Little Maya' E5 6a, up the scoop you've described.
Thumbelinaccessible would be great, no arguments with the grade then... well maybe.
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no arguments with the grade then... well maybe.
you're joking? does Blind vision mesn nothing to you? :off: Sorry
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has anyone done the direct start to thumbelina yet?
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Don't think so. I had a cursory attempt that ended very close, but then got distracted. I did climb a probably new (tight) line right of Ina City Riot though.
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be sure to call it Ina City Sumo.
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If you don't do it, Sky will.
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Don't think so. I had a cursory attempt that ended very close, but then got distracted. I did climb a probably new (tight) line right of Ina City Riot though.
Gus and I did one on the wall to the right of ICR called Inaquality a few years ago. It was a boulder problem of about F7a? I don't know if it's the same one you're thinking of.
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its all over the place... thinkin along the lines of it being a bolder problem... I have seem the likes of moon shun a uk problem because of exposure, then go to Font and do the second ascent (Petit Fou, M Menestrel) flash... at around E7 font 7cish...
The xs grade is no good,
The E grade don't work,
UK grades don't work,
We got to acknowledge that we are opening problems that feel gnarly when you work them, but on the ascent, they feel resonable. My view of soloing used to be, how can you climb something like King of Rumpy in the pass at E6, when you got Lord of the Flies across the road? I really like the feeling of not being able to fall off, embracing the somatic consequence of failure, and not the mortal...
Everything i have done, I feel has been Bouldering, and I reflect that in the grades, only to have it over ridden by other peoples opinions of something they have sometimes never even seen, let alone climbed.
I hope we can just enjoy the trip, and not trip on it to much...
"Big waves are mesured not in height, but increments of fear". applicable?
PS, Is that really me, or Chris Wentworth? which route is it?
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its all over the place... thinkin along the lines of it being a bolder problem... I have seem the likes of moon shun a uk problem because of exposure, then go to Font and do the second ascent (Petit Fou, M Menestrel) flash... at around E7 font 7cish...
The xs grade is no good,
The E grade don't work,
UK grades don't work,
:o
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Tried to do it again today, rather half heartedly, and shat it.
Alarm bells ringing!!!!!!!!!
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My view of soloing used to be, how can you climb something like King of Rumpy in the pass at E6, when you got Lord of the Flies across the road?
I was definetely more scared on Rumpy than Lord but i know what your saying.
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Gus and I did one on the wall to the right of ICR called Inaquality a few years ago. It was a boulder problem of about F7a? I don't know if it's the same one you're thinking of.
No, that's to the right again, you showed it to me last year.
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You're very good at photographins Ina's, Adam.
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Thinking of a conversation with (we are not worthy) Zaff Ali, years ago... sharing the same fascination of numerology, we discused the E grade system being quantified within the E1-11 margin, encompassing all routes...
I thought of a hypothetical system that would actually work perfectly for bouldering...
The Universal System.
Its a crap system designer to evaluate difficulty of problems whilst measuring height and mapping the Crux moves, to my knowledge no other problem does this...
each meter of a problem has either a 1, or a 0... so 1 means hard, 0 means easy... an x means the crux...
for example,
can some one post the map for the following...
Ben's roof.
Power/Stamina Band.
Inertia reel.
and Thumbellina!
something like The green traverse with the dope start would be
10X0...
something like Deliverance would be
01
so OK, I have gone insane... but totally having fun stuck in London.
Any feedback welcome,
PS its like a joke...
but not funny!
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Shot of Westie climbing Thumbelina.
Seems the travelling Americans did it too.
(http://www.mattsegal.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/sam.jpg)
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Great stuff! Loving the ghostly spotters!
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Shot of Westie climbing Thumbelina.
Seems the travelling Americans did it too.
(http://www.mattsegal.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/sam.jpg)
I was just wadded for this pic. Can i just point out i didn't take it!
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Check out page 84 of the Staffs guide, I think he's been cut and pasted!
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my god... :o
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Great stuff! Loving the ghostly spotters!
Loving the ghostly boot on the finishing jug!
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Check out page 84 of the Staffs guide, I think he's been cut and pasted!
Spot on!
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I was just wadded for this pic. Can i just point out i didn't take it!
Very honest Adam, nice one. But it stands as waddage for your recent shots and the various photos taken by others that you've linked to - such as the great Parthian Shot photo.
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Andi Mate you got too much time on your hands dude!!
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just to add some further info to the tree 'mystery', a couple of tree-surgeons in the employ of alton towers strolled over when we were last there. seems they have plenty to keep them busy hereabouts. stupidly it didn't occur to us to ask them if they had been involved, but with them and the fact that its popular with parties of schoolkids suggests it may have been.
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Some Ina's action from last week. If you haven't been here yet you should definately check it out. Highly recommended! Good work Andi & others! :great:
Climbing at Ina's Rock (http://www.vimeo.com/8012723)
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Nice video.
So has the stump from Cornelius gone pretty much completely then? I'd be keen to go back and try it if the landing could be made reasonably flat.
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Doesn't look like it. Its about 2 foot high and not in an ideal place. You can drop off fine without hitting it, though falling (or snapping the crimp) off on the crux move would be a different story.
Nice vid Jon! Is this the start of a bolder direction in your climbing? :thumbsup:
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or snapping the crimp
What are you saying? :-\
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I didn't really dare pull on it, it seemed very fragile.
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or snapping the crimp
What are you saying? :-\
I think he's trying to imply you have moobs
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Doesn't look like it. Its about 2 foot high and not in an ideal place. You can drop off fine without hitting it, though falling (or snapping the crimp) off on the crux move would be a different story.
Nice vid Jon! Is this the start of a bolder direction in your climbing? :thumbsup:
Don't hold your breath ;D I certainly wouldn't want to go any higher than those two routes!
The crimp didn't seem that bad to me, if i remember it is still part of the main rock, unlike the flakey one on Thumbelina which i reckon will definately come off at some point!
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Cool video, nice one! :) I should get down there some time.
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Andi do you know owt about the Cornelius/Thumbelina link-up?? I was trying this briefly when i was there and didn't realise it had already been done. You know who did it and what grade it is?? I thought it would be about 7c/+ ish... really hard span move to gain the crimps on Thumbelina!
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Yeah, Pete Whittaker did it. In the E7 bracket, perhaps fb7c? Another difficult one to grade, I know that he was struggling to do the rock up on Cornelius, so started playing on this version instead and found it easier, take from that what you will!
On the day he did it, Ryan flashed all three of them :bow:
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I know that he was struggling to do the rock up on Cornelius, so started playing on this version instead and found it easier, take from that what you will!
:o
(http://www.hotaches.com/images/E9%20Send2.jpg)