UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Luke Owens on January 06, 2016, 07:25:14 pm
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I've tried setting myself a training plan to get 2 routes done before our 2nd child arrives in April. Just looking for a few pointers of things to change or if anything doesn't look right.
So the little one is due on April 14th but could easily be 2 weeks early like our first so I'd like to peak in March ideally.
The 2 routes are:
Left Wall Traverse in the cave - ~15moves to a kneebar rest then ~8 easier moves to the finish.
Flowers are for the Dead at Dinbren - ~19 sustained moves to a half rest which is not worth stopping at then 5 easy-ish moves to an almost no hands rest, then ~6 easy but delicate slab moves to some jugs and the chains.
I can do all the moves on both routes it's just the linking the longer sustained sections I have a problem with.
I've started as this week being the first week and have planned out (per week):
Week 1 - 4
3 x Strength/Bouldering
2 x AeroCap
2 x AnCap
3 x Core
Week 5 & 6
3 x Strength/Bouldering
1 x AeroCap (Tagged on start/end of sessions)
2 x AeroPow
1 x AnCap
3 x Core
Week 7 & 8
2 x Strength/Bouldering (Focusing on Power and Explosive moves)
1 x AeroCap (Tagged on start/end of sessions)
1 x AeroPow
1 x AnCap
1 x AnPow
3 x Core
Week 9 & 10
2 x Strength/Bouldering (Focusing on Power and Explosive moves)
2 x AeroPow
1 x AnPow
This would take me to mid March.
Seems a lot per week but I'll be combining the systems per sessions. e.g last night at the wall I did:
25 mins AeroCap warm up
1 hour bouldering at my limit
AnCap - 15moves x 8reps (2.5mins rest between reps) powered out on move 13 of rep 7 & 8
So would that count as ticking the box for 1 of each AeroCap, AnCap and Strength on the plan?
All my core is done on my lunch in work and couldn't really do much else during this time and it free's up my wall sessions. I usually do 2 evenings at the wall in the week and 1 session (preferably outdoors) on the weekend.
Historically my main problem on routes is I power out really quickly and once pumped and faced with a hard sequence I can barely do any moves. I'll be going fine then just can't pull anymore. So my best guess, is the AnCap is going to be the most important for these short routes? Moving to an emphesis on AeroPow in the latter half as per Barrows' document?
For AnCap I've planned on: 15 moves x 8 reps (2.5mins rest between reps) Aiming to power our in rep 7 & 8
For AeroPow: 30 moves x 8 reps (rest = to climb time)
Is it worth keeping the AnCap consistant on each session or is i worth alternating between the above and a lower amount of moves (say 12) for 3 reps and resting 5mins and repeating x3 to allow for harder sequences?
Thanks to anyone who reads all the above (bit long winded sorry). Any changes/advice you think are worth while would be great, just want to best use my time. Would be great to get the 2 routes done!
Cheers
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I'd cut the aero down and focus more on finger strength, campussing, longer boulders and AnCap. You'll need Anaerobic energy for your goals and it sounds like your weakness is power.
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I don't know what all the catpow etc stuff is Luke but all I read is 2 sessions a wk training, I counted 4 pows. The maths doesn't work.
Remember when barrows gives advice it's from the position of a)being one of the most boring men you're ever likely to meet 2)he's a fucking everlasting student with unlimited time 3)he's one of the tallest weakest men you'll ever meet 4)see 1 5)I'd hurt my thumb if I carried on.
So if your goals were just to do 2 routes that you knew the moves on just tailor your training sessions to a similar number of moves and the same type of moves.
Caveat: Barrows has climbed 9a I've climbed 6b
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I'd cut the aero down and focus more on finger strength, campussing, longer boulders and AnCap. You'll need Anaerobic energy for your goals and it sounds like your weakness is power.
Cut it to just warm-ups/downs? I don't think I'd be dedicating sessions to it anyway.
I don't know what all the catpow etc stuff is Luke but all I read is 2 sessions a wk training, I counted 4 pows. The maths doesn't work.
Remember when barrows gives advice it's from the position of a)being one of the most boring men you're ever likely to meet 2)he's a fucking everlasting student with unlimited time 3)he's one of the tallest weakest men you'll ever meet 4)see 1 5)I'd hurt my thumb if I carried on.
So if your goals were just to do 2 routes that you knew the moves on just tailor your training sessions to a similar number of moves and the same type of moves.
Caveat: Barrows has climbed 9a I've climbed 6b
:lol: I can train more if I want but I feel 2 sessions 1 on a Tuesday and 1 on a Thursday then a session on the weekend is enough, if I start pushing more I just start getting run down, espeically if I'm doing stuff like AnCap (I can feel it the next day after training it).
It's possible to combine energy systems in a session (AnCap training barely takes much out of a session), I'd rather do it this way than go to the wall every day, I feel having a full rest day works for me.
Yeah, basicly I want to tailor my training to the 2 routes.
For anyone in the know. How does training AeroPow help for short routes?
Cheers
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Have you tried left wall traverse much? I did it last year, it took quite a few sessions spread over a few months and a fair bit of specific training to do it and it was the hardest problem/route I'd done at the time so my experience may be helpful.
I found it could be broken down in to a few sections:
1) The start: ~6 moves of powerful, sequency climbing
2) The cross-through: ~3 moves setting up for and moving through the cross-through
3) From the crimps, through the flake, to the rest
4) The finish
1) The starting sequence felt quite close to my bouldering limit, especially when I was first working it. I was powering out by the end of this section. If powering out on sustained sections is a problem, this could be the crux for you. Maximum strength and An Pow/medium length roof bouldering will be most useful here.
2) This was the crux for me, I dropped the cross-through move more times than I care to remember. I could do the moves easily in isolation but I was powering out by the cross-through and couldn't pull through on it.
3) Once you are through the cross-through, the holds are all decent and each move is easier than the last. You might get pumped but if you had enough left to get passed the cross-through, a bit of determination will be enough to get you through this. Aerobic endurance is a weakness of mine but I still knew I'd finish the route the first time I got through the cross-through.
4) The rest is so good, even a pure boulderer should be able to recover fully for this section so as long as you remember the sequence, this won't cause you a problem.
So the three things I think you need for this route are 1) strength for the start 2) An Pow/An Cap to get you through the cross through 3) a refined sequence to make sure you don't waste too much energy before the crux or drop the easy sections through silly mistakes. I think the aerobic sections of this route are so much easier than the anaerobic sections that I don't think the aerobic system is likely to need too much training focus.
So I would up the focus on the strength and An pow with some An Cap and reduce the focus on the aerobic side of things.
I would also consider adding in a powerful cross-through at the end of some of your An Pow/An Cap routes for maximum specificity.
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I took a gander at your posts over the last while, particularly powerclub posts and I would have to agree with everyone else. Focus on strength and power, especially in the near term.
I have found that strength training is one of the hardest things for many climbers to get their heads around, and especially so for route climbers. warm-up, then try a 1-3 move sequence at your limit 4-5 times over 20-30 minutes, then another, then another, and that is your whole session. After warming up, you may only actually do 10-15 moves the whole session. BUT, they're high quality training rather than high quantity.
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Ignoring the Dense question as to whether Energy Systems stuff is appropriate, from a brief read I'd say:
Base phase isn't nearly long enough (IMO)
Too much strength and Ancap in weeks 1-4 (an Ancap session leaves me completely toasted, there's no way that you'll get in 5 total, quality, Strength and Ancap sessions per week IMO)
There seems to be a relatively large amount of time spent crossing over between Base/Peak? AnPow seems a bit unloved?
The order of priority in your quoted session seems wrong to me (was your Aerocap actually that? It must've been very very light. Foot on laddering for 10mins, rest 10, 4 reps total for instance wouldn't feel like a warmup to me!):
Bouldering
Ancap
Aerocap
I'm sure this (the order of priorities) is listed in the Barrows text?
IF this is a large increase in training load my injury alarms would be flashing wildly. Take Care.
Caveat - I rarely try hard as I'm apparently quite lazy.
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Have you tried left wall traverse much? I did it last year, it took quite a few sessions spread over a few months and a fair bit of specific training to do it and it was the hardest problem/route I'd done at the time so my experience may be helpful.
Cheers for the breakdown, I've been on it a few times but never give it my full attention. I've done it from 1 move into the Horizontal Shothole start. Then focused on that first move of that start last time I was there.
I found myself powering out on the section after the kneebar rest last time I was there, maybe not spending long enough in the rest.
Good idea adding a cross through style move on the circuits, that move must be tricky from the start.
I have found that strength training is one of the hardest things for many climbers to get their heads around, and especially so for route climbers. warm-up, then try a 1-3 move sequence at your limit 4-5 times over 20-30 minutes, then another, then another, and that is your whole session. After warming up, you may only actually do 10-15 moves the whole session. BUT, they're high quality training rather than high quantity.
I spent most of my sessions over the last couple of months at the wall doing this sort of thing on the 20' and 45' degree board. I was feeling stronger every session which was good, but in doing so was ignoring anything other than short hard sequences. Would you say it's not worth doing this with AnCap tagged onto the end of the session?
Base phase isn't nearly long enough (IMO)
Too much strength and Ancap in weeks 1-4 (an Ancap session leaves me completely toasted, there's no way that you'll get in 5 total, quality, Strength and Ancap sessions per week IMO)
After my first time trying AnCap circuits I did feel blasted to be honest. My original plan was to do boulder and tag AnCap on the end 2 evenings in the week then boulder on the weekend giving 3 strength and 2 AnCap workouts, I couldn't do that volume dedicating sessions to each. Would you recommed dedicating sessions at a reduced volume instead (e.g 2 full sessions on strength and one on AnCap)?
There seems to be a relatively large amount of time spent crossing over between Base/Peak? AnPow seems a bit unloved?
Would it be better to scrap the crossover and just switch from Base to Peak? So start AnPow from week 5?
The order of priority in your quoted session seems wrong to me (was your Aerocap actually that? It must've been very very light. Foot on laddering for 10mins, rest 10, 4 reps total for instance wouldn't feel like a warmup to me!):
Bouldering
Ancap
Aerocap
I'm sure this (the order of priorities) is listed in the Barrows text?
My AeroCap is really low end, basicly traversing easy ground for ~25 mins as a warm up.
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I'd cut the aero down and focus more on finger strength, campussing, longer boulders and AnCap. You'll need Anaerobic energy for your goals and it sounds like your weakness is power.
Cut it to just warm-ups/downs? I don't think I'd be dedicating sessions to it anyway.
OK, I admit I'm an AeroCap skeptic who thinks fitness is overrated ;). It strikes me you have to do a lot of it over a long base period. What's the point when you're boulders/routes are basically sprints? I get the bit about lactate and having to do some AeroCap. But, I personally don't think Left Wall Trav really requires PE. Ultimately it will be your ability to bear down sufficiently to do the moves into the knee bar. And that will come down to strength and power, not fitness. I've recently found that I perform best on intense 20 - 30 move circuits after a period of fingerboarding. The old addage of being stronger on the moves and therefore being able to link more before you power out and fall off. Being fit is of no use if you're not strong enough to do the moves.
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When I was trying LW (spread over my latter years in NW) I nearly did it one summer but fluffed the end. My advice is to use the end as part of your warm up so you totally autopilot it!
You seem to be at a similar/higher level of ability than me when i did it so If I were you I'd siege the crap out of it, train strength in the week and you'll do it.
My reasoning for this is a) its not that long b) its quite powerful (or was for me) and c) its not just basic pulling
If you get strong, learn it really well and climb it quickly and precisely I reckon it would be in the bag for you! you wont get particularly pumped or certainly not aerobic way. obviously also milk that kneebar to death!!!
I also experienced what T_B says above recently on the works circuit board - early last year when I was training endurance loads i couldnt touch this 7b circuit and the one "rest" slopey jug in the middle made me more pumped. I bouldered a load this autumn and then one evening had a circuit board session as it was really busy and managed to do the circuit 3 times and could stop, and take a few seconds to catch my breath and chalk on the slopey jug!
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To further back up TB's point you also did a bunch of finger boarding when you broke your heel and came back much stronger.
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Although I know nothing about training I will say that anecdotally any long problems I've ever done has been by getting strong enough to make the moves easier, not training endurance. Added bonus that it isn't as boring or longwinded as stamina training.
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OK, I admit I'm an AeroCap skeptic who thinks fitness is overrated ;).
As I said above, I'm not commenting on whether this type of training is relevant to Luke, nor bouldering as whole (I've never spent any time trying to look at the Binney/Barrows stuff as a boulderer and thus I'm simply not sure). Barrows does point out that most of the routes he's interested in are Euro-style rather than the hard, Old School bouldery type routes that may relate to this thread better. For me I want routes to feel like routes (preferably long and continuous) and boulder problems to feel like that (i.e. short and hard). Binney does present the ideas both for routes and boulderers.
Anecdotally, for routes, AeroCap has helped me massively (both home and abroad); having been in Sheffield for the past decade and spent far (far) too much time on boards I've employed the "stronger than the moves" mentality with reasonable success on short Peak stuff but I do think it's limiting in the long run; are you working efficiently doing this (these days I'd say not, in the past I may have disagreed)? It has allowed me to rest in positions that I wouldn't have usually deemed appropriate and to recover a huge amount at actual rests, this made extensions to various things that I picked off this year a lot more feasible (it's also a great feeling to arrive at a jug completely boxed and then just shake it out back to normal).
With respect to the above I read an interesting Andrew Andrew Bisharat article where he'd paid for a coaching session which involved movement coaching, followed by doing the same move after gaining a bit of a pump. It's here (http://eveningsends.com/climbing/justen-sjong-training-part-2/), skip to "Beating the Crimp and Pull". I found it interesting and it also rang worryingly true; some things can't simply be improved by getting stronger (something my younger self failed to understand).
It (AeroCap) does require a fair amount of time and in my current situation (with a relatively high amount of time spent getting to a wall) I'll have to look at if AeroCap work is efficient use of my time. Low-end, high time, will likely fail the test.
On a side note I intend to re-read this whilst thinking strongly about my priorities:
https://www.trainingbeta.com/hierarchy-training-steve-bechtel/
After my first time trying AnCap circuits I did feel blasted to be honest. My original plan was to do boulder and tag AnCap on the end 2 evenings in the week then boulder on the weekend giving 3 strength and 2 AnCap workouts, I couldn't do that volume dedicating sessions to each. Would you recommend dedicating sessions at a reduced volume instead (e.g 2 full sessions on strength and one on AnCap
Luke, it's still sounding like a lot but if you post it as MTWTFSS and what you'd do in each session (in order) it may be easier for me to get my head around it; again, it seems like a big ask if I'm understanding correctly. I don't think you (or certainly I) can mix high quality strength sessions and Ancap as one; the latter would be compromised if the first is done correctly (I may be wrong here?).
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I'm with TB. Flowers and Left Wall are usually conquered by strength rather than fitness being extended boulders problems (to the rests).
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Just my opinion but id do something like the following:
Monday: Wall session - Warm up then Hard bouldering for 1.5hrs. Finish with feet on campus ladders to failure x 3 sets. Aiming for 2min of laddering per set. 5min rests between sets.
Tue: 1hr of Core & Stretching
Wed: Light session of some kind (HIIT or cardio if you want to loose weight) or just Rest
Thursday: The same as Monday
Friday: The same as Wednesday
Saturday: Climb outside or mileage session inside.
Sunday: The same as Tuesday
I don't think you should need do any specific fitness / AeroCap to do your goal probs, just get stronger and do plenty of foot on campusing (which I think will translate really effectively to LWT)
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I don't think you should need do any specific fitness / AeroCap to do your goal probs, just get stronger and do plenty of foot on campusing (which I think will translate really effectively to LWT)
As you described, that is (high-end) Aerocap (albeit with a little variation in the work:rest), non? With puntering around at very low intensity being either very low end AeroCap or ARC...
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So now we have high end and low end AeroCap!?
I want to avoid upsetting anyone here, or getting into an argument about systems but I was on the understanding that 2mins of foot on campusing was An-Cap rather them AeroCap?
Either way Luke, 3 x 2mins max of foot on campusing (adjust hold size to suit time) a few times a week for a few months will see you along LWT no meither
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I want to avoid upsetting anyone here, or getting into an argument about systems
Ditto (not least because I need to do some work); I wish my understanding was clearer.
So now we have high end and low end AeroCap!?
As far as I've understood it this has always been the case, sometimes referred to as ARC, sometimes capillarisation (all a bit blurred). In the Barrows text it's mentioned a few times (e.g 5.1 Aerobic Capacity and Capillarisation).
Either way Luke, 3 x 2mins max of foot on campusing (adjust hold size to suit time) a few times a week for a few months will see you along LWT no meither
You're right (more so than me) actually with your ratios (I'm getting befuddled, sorry):
System, Work, Rest (from 7. Quick Reference):
AeroCap, 10+min, n/a
AnCap, 12-15 moves (30-40s), Long (2-4x work period)
AeroPow, ~30 moves (45-120s), Short (approx 1:1)
AnPow, 5-7 moves, Very short (< or equal to work period)
I've seen a lot of foot on campussing being used under the guise of AeroCap with 10 mins on (foot on campussing) followed by a similar amount of rest, repeat 4 times total.
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Cheers everyone plenty to think about; they are basicly short boudery style routes but I think having a bit of aerobic fitness will help as well.
I know a few people who have just got massively stronger (short bouldering) and ignored any kind of fitness training. They still can't climb any harder on sport. They find moves easier but linking them still proves hard to them.
I'm pretty sure foot-on campusing is AeroPow? If you look at the work time/moves it's going to be around the 2 minute mark ~30 moves. Too long for AnCap?
I was going to start the Foot-on stuff 6 weeks before the end as the adaption time for AeroPow is shorter than AnCap.
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OK, I admit I'm an AeroCap skeptic who thinks fitness is overrated ;).
Anecdotally, for routes, AeroCap has helped me massively (both home and abroad); having been in Sheffield for the past decade and spent far (far) too much time on boards I've employed the "stronger than the moves" mentality with reasonable success on short Peak stuff but I do think it's limiting in the long run; are you working efficiently doing this (these days I'd say not, in the past I may have disagreed)? It has allowed me to rest in positions that I wouldn't have usually deemed appropriate and to recover a huge amount at actual rests, this made extensions to various things that I picked off this year a lot more feasible (it's also a great feeling to arrive at a jug completely boxed and then just shake it out back to normal).
With respect to the above I read an interesting Andrew Andrew Bisharat article where he'd paid for a coaching session which involved movement coaching, followed by doing the same move after gaining a bit of a pump. It's here (http://eveningsends.com/climbing/justen-sjong-training-part-2/), skip to "Beating the Crimp and Pull". I found it interesting and it also rang worryingly true; some things can't simply be improved by getting stronger (something my younger self failed to understand).
You missed the emoji Paul ;)
I can't really argue against any of that having not completed a sustained period of AeroCap training (I tried it in 2014, but I think I was working in what Randall calls the 'middle zone' / "the wasted miles"). I've been fit like that in the past, but just from climbing a lot. I was definitely weak when I was really fit.
In more recent years I've managed to 'sprint between rests' on 30m pitches using what I understand to be Anaerobic endurance rather than aero by not getting pumped, due to being (relatively) strong on the moves (my best anecdote is redpointing Zoolook with no 'fitness', though I could rest below the little roof due to being tall). This can work effectively for redpointing - with on-sighting you need to be properly 'fit', or get lucky. Hence I'm a bit of a Aero skeptic, especially for UK redpointing, where I suspect a lot of people would be best focussing on strength and how to climb quickly and efficiently. But we're all different and tend to like to play to our strengths.
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I know a few people who have just got massively stronger (short bouldering) and ignored any kind of fitness training. They still can't climb any harder on sport. They find moves easier but linking them still proves hard to them.
Yes, if you just do short boulders you power out very quickly. It's that hitting a wall feeling where you simply can't do another move. That's not the same as AnCap where, as I understand it, you can bear down for up to approx a minute. Doing short, intense boulder circuits translates well into short UK style bouldery routes (and stuff in the Cave).
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I'm pretty sure foot-on campusing is AeroPow? If you look at the work time/moves it's going to be around the 2 minute mark ~30 moves. Too long for AnCap?
It's not really the exercise per se its the work:rest relationship that dictates which system is targeted...I think of Ancap on a campus board as laddering 1-3-5-7-9-7-5-3-1-3-5-7-9 ish, feeling like I don't get anywhere near enough rest and then feeling utterly battered at the end of a session!
Yes, if you just do short boulders you power out very quickly. It's that hitting a wall feeling where you simply can't do another move. That's not the same as AnCap where, as I understand it, you can bear down for up to approx a minute. Doing short, intense boulder circuits translates well into short UK style bouldery routes (and stuff in the Cave).
;D back at you...
Again, a recent training beta interview goes through this quite well (was it Bechtel, or Peters, or Randall?), he (it was definitely a he) talks about an example of each energy system being lacking; it's worth a listen whilst you do something else.
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Again, a recent training beta interview goes through this quite well (was it Bechtel, or Peters, or Randall?), he (it was definitely a he) talks about an example of each energy system being lacking; it's worth a listen whilst you do something else.
I think this was the Will Anglin one actually, or at least that was one where Neely specifically asked him about how to tell when an energy system is failing, though Randall definitely covered relevant ground too. (Also just noticed two new TB podcasts with Dave Mc and someone else I don't know, more training geekery to listen to :bounce:)
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In his interview Tom gives a case study that may be relevant, someone trying to do a long boulder, the Aero work he's been scheduled and why. Starts around 50:30 I think but there might be some relevant stuff just before that.
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Thanks for all the responses it seems AnCap, AnPow and strength/bouldering will be most important for these routes.
Is it worth holding off on the AnPow until 6 weeks until the end as per the adaption time?
Also, is doing AnCap twice a week OK?
This week which is week 1 for me I've done
M: Core
T: Lunch: Core, Eve: Wall - 25mins ARC warm-up, 1.5hrs max bouldering. AnCap - 15 moves x 8 reps (2.5mins between reps)
W: Rest
T: Lunch: Core, Eve: Wall - 25mins ARC warm-up, 1.5hrs max bouldering. AnCap - 15 moves x 8 reps (2.5mins between reps)
F: Rest
S: Going to head to the cave to work on LWT
S: Rest
6 weeks from the end I'll add in AnPow and drop to 1 sesh or completely drop AnCap?
Is AeroPow to be completely neglected as I know Alex's document highlights this as being quite important regardless of route length?
Cheers
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S: Going to head to the cave to work on LWT
S: Rest
6 weeks from the end I'll add in AnPow and drop to 1 sesh or completely drop AnCap?
Is AeroPow to be completely neglected as I know Alex's document highlights this as being quite important regardless of route length?
How did you get on?
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From reading the above fairly quickly - and some of this has been said already - I do think you're missing a load of endurance, so I think you're in the right ballpark.
I've done LW, but as someone else said I "conquered by strength rather than fitness" and went as fast as possible.
* Getting pumped on that difficulty of ground = anaerobic fitness
* "Not spending long enough on the rests" translates usually to having crap aerobic fitness - you need the aero to recover on the rests.
The first question really is whether you need ancap or anpow more - because you need to get the capacity up before training the power (make the bucket bigger before making the pipe to empty it bigger). If you're anything like me, it's the ancap you need.
The problem you have I think is one of time. Between now and mid-march you have only 10 weeks. This is not long enough to make significant inroads into your ancap, certainly if you switch to anpow. It takes a long time for the adaptations to take hold. From Barrow's PDF:
Aerobic Capacity: 8+ weeks
Anaerobic Capacity: 16+ weeks
Aerobic and Anaerobic Power: 6-8 weeks
You may get some benefits in less time - but I'd not count on it. In six weeks for example, I've noticed no real gains (only slight ones).
It may be - and I'd be interested in everyone else's thoughts - that actually sacking off the ancap/pow work is a better idea, and going for all out strength, plus a load of aerobic work so you can recover better on the rests if necessary.
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Also, is doing AnCap twice a week OK?
For me, I'd predict feeling fairly fatigued (at the end of that phase) doing Max Strength (board for me) type bouldering followed by Ancap twice a week, I'd have thought the AnCap session would be flawed due to the proceeding activity (1.5 hrs!). Especially so perhaps if your weekend session is effectively long-bouldering?
You seem to like day on day off; I used to like this (and I think it works v. well for pure bouldering) but with energy systems stuff it felt like I was always trying to pack too much into a session / there weren't enough days in the week.
I also forgot to say I didn't see a planned taper in your original programme?
Lund is spot on with the adaption times too.
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I can see loads of people have questions all about the intensity, what it feels like, how much you'd do etc etc. Would it help if I spoke to the mods and arranged a time where I could be on UKB one evening and just answer a load of questions?
Tom
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would be fantastic.
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The first question really is whether you need ancap or anpow more - because you need to get the capacity up before training the power (make the bucket bigger before making the pipe to empty it bigger). If you're anything like me, it's the ancap you need.
I imagine it's AnCap too, it's something I've never trained and I'm strong enough to do the moves just no good at sustaining hard climbing.
The problem you have I think is one of time. Between now and mid-march you have only 10 weeks. This is not long enough to make significant inroads into your ancap, certainly if you switch to anpow. It takes a long time for the adaptations to take hold. From Barrow's PDF:
Aerobic Capacity: 8+ weeks
Anaerobic Capacity: 16+ weeks
Aerobic and Anaerobic Power: 6-8 weeks
You may get some benefits in less time - but I'd not count on it. In six weeks for example, I've noticed no real gains (only slight ones).
It may be - and I'd be interested in everyone else's thoughts - that actually sacking off the ancap/pow work is a better idea, and going for all out strength, plus a load of aerobic work so you can recover better on the rests if necessary.
Yeah, I'm struggling with what to do and when given the time constraints, adaption times etc.
Interesting point about sacking off the ancap/pow in favor of strength, I'd rather not just strength my way through it if possible but I suppose it's an option! I guess that's the problem I'm having deciding what is best to do/not do.
It's not like I won't be out after the little one is here, it would just be a bonus to get a couple of ticks in before hand, if not I'll just start a longer training plan in Spring/Summer although that will be more geared towards Diamond season.
I also forgot to say I didn't see a planned taper in your original programme?
What would be "Week 11" was going to be a taper week. That would bring me to 21st March. Would have a few weeks then before the little one arrives (unless she's early ;D) and fingers crossed Dinbren will be in condition.
Forgot to mention previously that the route at Dinbren I want to do I've actually had 10 sessions on it over the past 2 years, spaced out sessions. I did all the moves quickly but linking them proved difficult. In the last 4 sessions I would fall off about 8 moves in hang on the rope for a minute then climb to the top. It got the better of me and I sacked it off earlier this year as I didn't see any improvement and didn't know how to improve. Would probably have done it if I had stuck at it, but hitting session number 10 had some mental impact on me!
How did you get on?
It's Saturday tomorrow ;D I'll let you know, I predict I may be too tired to give it my best effort given the AnCap I've done this week. As Paul B said that's 3 long bouldering sessions in a week.
I can see loads of people have questions all about the intensity, what it feels like, how much you'd do etc etc. Would it help if I spoke to the mods and arranged a time where I could be on UKB one evening and just answer a load of questions?
Tom
Tom that would be great. Thanks!
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I think the one thing that can be gleaned from this and the thread on Mountainproject about 'focusing on fitness' style training is that people really need to be more specific when they are talking about what they are doing, or what they are suggesting to other people.
Just to start with, foot-on campusing could mean anything. Using the big juggy rungs and using the smallest rungs would be using completely different energy systems/intensities. I think most people would assume the exercise is ladders (alternating rungs until at full stretch) but not everybody would know this either.
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Also, don't get me wrong I won't be asking any questions since I'm not remotely interested in routes, could people stop calling them an pow aero cap etc when talking to a layman on Ukb. I got a txt the other night from an 8c climber, miserable failure at 8c+, simply saying "what the fuck are they talking about on Ukb? What is all that an cap shit?" No one has a clue, with the possible exception of Tommy & barrows.
I propose someone says something along the lines of I want to do a 30 move pinch fest with a shit rest at move 23, what is the quickest way I'm going to do this? Or I'm going on a sport climbing hol where most things are 20m I want to onsight as much as poss what do I do?
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Also, don't get me wrong I won't be asking any questions since I'm not remotely interested in routes, could people stop calling them an pow aero cap etc when talking to a layman on Ukb. I got a txt the other night from an 8c climber, miserable failure at 8c+, simply saying "what the fuck are they talking about on Ukb? What is all that an cap shit?" No one has a clue, with the possible exception of Tommy & barrows.
I agree. Some Dense sense written there...
I really have no idea what the difference cap/pow/an/aero things mean..
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?
Aero- aerobic
An- anaerobic
Pow- power
Cap- capacity.
On my phone, but I have a couple diagrams/info graphics that illustrate to energy systems on my pad. I can stick them up later if it would help?
There is a tendency to use slightly different terminology on the forum from standard sports lingo (I'm a level 3 personal trainer, just starting to specialise in rehab.) but it's easily translatable.
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Also, don't get me wrong I won't be asking any questions since I'm not remotely interested in routes, could people stop calling them an pow aero cap etc when talking to a layman on Ukb. I got a txt the other night from an 8c climber, miserable failure at 8c+, simply saying "what the fuck are they talking about on Ukb? What is all that an cap shit?" No one has a clue, with the possible exception of Tommy & barrows.
I agree. Some Dense sense written there...
I really have no idea what the difference cap/pow/an/aero things mean..
If you want answers, get a coach
If you want a discussion and to learn something, then that's what all this chit chat is about
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Here's a quick translation of a graph I did for a side-project of mine
We tried to explain the difference between Power vs "Capacity" (Work) using an analogy.
(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y5_K5A2-50k/VpENxwRBENI/AAAAAAAAE9Q/z_iCCA-uNpM/s576-Ic42/capacityEffect.png)
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Were the last few answers directed at me? Get a coach? Or if I want to learn something? My point was that in all these discussions the people that want the help don't know what the people trying to give it are talking about. This has been shown time and time again.
I think it's great that someone like Tommy has offered to do this, what I was saying was the people that will be asking the questions don't have a sports science degree they just want to know what to do, in pretty much laymans terms.
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Getting the snip should help mate.
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Getting the snip should help mate.
Is that why he's down in London? ;)
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I'm back in Shef now, and British Gas have just left after fixing a 5 month old boiler. Wouldn't have needed it in the big smoke but it's grim up north
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I want to avoid upsetting anyone here, or getting into an argument about systems...
:/
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Getting the snip should help mate.
Is that why he's down in London? ;)
Luke's not in London, I've just seen him on the Orme...
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I still haven't seen a good explanation why the current strength/power and Arc/endurance and low end and high end PE aren't good descriptions of what's going on :???:
I guess I get that Pow and Cap are essentially saying a strong but unfit climber or a weak but extremely fit climber. but then the aeropow bit just doesn't make any sense to me! Frustrating because I want to understand all this stuff, as I'm very strong for the route grades I climb, just 'weak' at sustained 15ish move sequences
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As a ballpark if you'd rather do it with that terminology:
Strength = strength
ARC/endurance = aero cap
Short resistance, aka short PE = an cap, an pow (think powered out)
Long resistance aka long PE = aero pow (think forearm popping pump)
If you want to do it that way I'd say that your short resistance should gradually increase in length of circuit/problem used through your training cycle with a corresponding increase in rest times
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Ancap 4 lyfe :chair:
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The first question really is whether you need ancap or anpow more - because you need to get the capacity up before training the power (make the bucket bigger before making the pipe to empty it bigger).
Musing on this thread noticed this statement Lund... Surely it's the opposite?
Or do you mean a short period of ancap as preparation for 'proper' training?
Stamina is an expression of repetition in relation to maximum output, so shouldn't you first increase the single hardest move you can do and then work on stamina? (Though in reality you mix up sessions with a stronger focus on one or the other depending on where you are in your training regime).
My unscientific approach is:
A few weeks of fitness oriented bouldering going from stamina/ 'aerocap' (long, easy) to power-endurance/ 'anpower' (much shorter, much harder) to be in good nick to start bouldering for strength.
Then lots of strength focused bouldering with some 4x4 type sessions thrown in regularly.
Then more focus on power endurance (4x4 type of training) with less of the powerful bouldering.
Then more pure stamina training with just a few regular 4x4 and strength sessions thrown in for maintenance.
About 4 months of work.
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The first question really is whether you need ancap or anpow more - because you need to get the capacity up before training the power (make the bucket bigger before making the pipe to empty it bigger).
Musing on this thread noticed this statement Lund... Surely it's the opposite?
Stamina is an expression of repetition in relation to maximum output, so shouldn't you first increase the single hardest move you can do and then work on stamina? (Though in reality you mix up sessions with a stronger focus on one or the other depending on where you are in your training regime).
As I understand the terminology, both ancap and anpow relate to the usage of the anaerobic energy system. So neither relates to the "single hardest move" concept: that's strength.
I do agree that you should do strength work first. Build up the neuromuscular pathways, get bigger muscles, etc. - and only then do any endurance work.
However, the ancap and anpow stuff are both endurance (as is aero power and aero cap). Physiologically, I'm thinking
* ancap is how much fuel your cells can store, how quickly they can replenish it, etc.?
* anpow is how efficient the muscles are at using it, or how quickly they can use it.
... similarly for the aero cap and power: you've got capillary transport, and type I/IIa/IIb conversion stuff going on.
In your regime, I think you're simply bundling the "cap" and "pow" together - which is traditional (or old school, depending). The difference between the two I think is simply how quickly one exhausts the energy system and thus the adaptation that you're trying to get.
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I went to the cave today to try left wall, thought I'd be too tired after the AnCap stuff this week but actually felt really good after warming up. Felt stronger and fitter on the moves/links than last session.
Managed it from the horizontal shothole start which is good progress for me (~11 moves to a no hands knee bar then ~10 moves to the end). Did all the moves from the proper start at the back too (4 moves), tried a quick link at the end of the session and linked 4 moves into about 3 moves of the shothole start but was too tired. Just got to link the whole thing now just 4 moves to add, think it will go quicker than I expected.
could people stop calling them an pow aero cap etc when talking to a layman on Ukb. I got a txt the other night from an 8c climber, miserable failure at 8c+, simply saying "what the fuck are they talking about on Ukb? What is all that an cap shit?" No one has a clue, with the possible exception of Tommy & barrows.
I actually find the geekery interesting and am keen to learn more about it.
Not everyone is going to be interested in this stuff and that's fine, no ones telling you you have to understand it. For me personally I could ask everyone in laymans terms what I want to do, go do the recommend training and get a route done; but I like to know why it worked and why the training I'm doing helps; it's just the way I am.
Here's a quick translation of a graph I did for a side-project of mine
We tried to explain the difference between Power vs "Capacity" (Work) using an analogy.
Really helpful analogy cheers!
Getting the snip should help mate.
I knew you'd end up posting that on here haha
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However, the ancap and anpow stuff are both endurance (as is aero power and aero cap). Physiologically, I'm thinking
* ancap is how much fuel your cells can store, how quickly they can replenish it, etc.?
* anpow is how efficient the muscles are at using it, or how quickly they can use it.
Thanks for replying.
Well now that's an interesting question, as far as I know we are only able to break ATP down to ADP + P for anaerobic energy so I don't understand how to differentiate these two concepts in terms of systems.
... similarly for the aero cap and power: you've got capillary transport, and type I/IIa/IIb conversion stuff going on.
I thought I/IIa,IIb was essentially mitochondrial differences in respect of being better equipped to facilitate energy through G+O2 vs ATP breakdown, capiliarisation enhancing the former.
In your regime, I think you're simply bundling the "cap" and "pow" together - which is traditional (or old school, depending). The difference between the two I think is simply how quickly one exhausts the energy system and thus the adaptation that you're trying to get.
Goes back to systems, really this is basic physiology - basic for those who have that knowledge of course! I might find it useful to learn more I think :-\
'Old school'? Well I started climbing in 1982, haven't yet climbed much harder than I did in '92, so you may have a point...
edit - comments about aero added
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System, Work, Rest (from 7. Quick Reference):
AeroCap, 10+min, n/a
AnCap, 12-15 moves (30-40s), Long (2-4x work period)
AeroPow, ~30 moves (45-120s), Short (approx 1:1)
AnPow, 5-7 moves, Very short (< or equal to work period)
I must admit quite confused by this.
Power is the rate of doing work ie faster rate/shorter duration for given output= more power.
Aeropow thus seems the antithesis of power - or is it just a misnomer as a way of identifying short aerobic activity at the border with anaerobic systems?
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I found this article on Repeated-Sprint Athletes: Energy Systems & Training (http://www.8weeksout.com/2011/10/10/research-review-energy-systems-interval-training-rsa/), which seemed to me as an ignorant layman to offer a clear layman's explanation of the basic concepts. albeit not climbing specific.
Any good?
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Yes, that's spot on, quite relevant to climbing demands, thanks.
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I personally find this a nice simple clear explanation: http://ptexphys.utorontoeit.com/energy-metabolism/atp-and-stored-sources-of-energy/
For the TLDR summary, it goes like this:
* Muscles move by "burning" ATP. With water, it turns into ADP and makes energy. It's not quite like this - it's more complicated - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_contraction and go down to "sliding filament theory". (Unless you're a nutjob, probably don't read that.)
* Short bursts of intense energy - 10s or less - think 100m sprint: exclusively uses stored ATP (and creative phosphate to regenerate the ATP when it's used up).
* Longer bursts of energy: there's not enough ATP stored, nor creatine. So you need to make the ATP in some other way.
* You can burn fat and protein: this is done aerobically, i.e. needs oxygen.
* You can also burn carbohydrate. Here there are two options: aerobically, or anaerobically (without).
The difference between the two is largely the amount of available oxygen. If the effort is intense enough, then there isn't enough oxygen and it has to be anaerobic. If it's easy enough, then there's plenty of oxygen and it's all fine.
Anaerobic produces lots more waste products - lactic acid. This is bad as it stops the muscles working. (Although have I seen stuff about this not being really the case? I can't remember.)
In terms of events, think 800m is anaerobic, ultra running = aerobic (on average).
Now, an cap and an pow - where do these come from? I'm not entirely certain, but I think they are things that you can measure, and as such sports scientists bang on about them. They used to bang on about lactate thresholds, blood lactic levels etc., but there are problems with these measurements. So, they start with something they think they can measure and then try to invent ways of fucking with said measurement, and then see if by fucking with it to make it different you get better at your sport. If you do, then they write about it and tell everyone and hope to get famous/rich/laid/taller/bluer eyes/a better seat in the afterlife.
This is where we've arrived at. :-)
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I'll admit that I'm too lazy to dig much deeper than having a quick look at the wiki article on lactic acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid#Exercise_and_lactate but I thought the idea that lactic acid is a 'bad' thing was going out of favour? One of those causation/correlation things, e.g. when people are pumped they have tons of lactic acid in their muscles, but is it the lactic acid causing the drop in power output or just a useful side-effect? (lactic acid is recycled later for energy)
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RCTM has a page about "its not really lactic acid" iirc, maybe thats where you saw it Lund
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I don't think lactic acid in itself is the issue but the production of lactate and hydrogen as a by product of working anaerobically and using ATP.
Not sure if the science knows 100% why this causes fatigue - something to do with low PH (acidosis) reducing the ability for the muscle fibre to contract.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493560/
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Sliding filament theory explains pump. You need to be the nutjob that reads and understands it to understand how muscle contractions become unsustainable. RCTM has a basic outline of it, worth reading a few different descriptions of it until one makes sense.
Chemistry n shit 'int it.
Unresolved Questions
Is muscle contraction completely understood? Scientists are still curious about several proteins that clearly influence muscle contraction, and these proteins are interesting because they are well conserved across animal species. For example, molecules such as titin, an unusually long and "springy" protein spanning sarcomeres in vertebrates, appears to bind to actin, but it is not well understood. In addition, scientists have made many observations of muscle cells that behave in ways that do not match our current understanding of them. For example, some muscles in mollusks and arthropods generate force for long periods, a poorly understood phenomenon sometimes called "catch-tension" or force hysteresis (Hoyle 1969). Studying these and other examples of muscle changes (plasticity) are exciting avenues for biologists to explore. Ultimately, this research can help us better understand and treat neuromuscular systems and better understand the diversity of this mechanism in our natural world.
Summary
Muscle contraction provides animals with great flexibility, allowing them to move in exquisite ways. The molecular changes that result in muscle contraction have been conserved across evolution in the majority of animals. By studying sarcomeres, the basic unit controlling changes in muscle length, scientists proposed the sliding filament theory to explain the molecular mechanisms behind muscle contraction. Within the sarcomere, myosin slides along actin to contract the muscle fiber in a process that requires ATP. Scientists have also identified many of the molecules involved in regulating muscle contractions and motor behaviors, including calcium, troponin, and tropomyosin. This research helped us learn how muscles can change their shapes to produce movements.
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My mind was blown the first time I saw some diagram explaining the sarcomere/actin process. Two creepy little worms bunching up and then sliding along each other lets me crimp hard. :jaw:
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Forgot to mention previously that the route at Dinbren I want to do I've actually had 10 sessions on it over the past 2 years, spaced out sessions. I did all the moves quickly but linking them proved difficult. In the last 4 sessions I would fall off about 8 moves in hang on the rope for a minute then climb to the top. It got the better of me and I sacked it off earlier this year as I didn't see any improvement and didn't know how to improve. Would probably have done it if I had stuck at it, but hitting session number 10 had some mental impact on me!
Went back tot he cave last night to try Left Wall again, got some suttle beta tweaks sussed which help make individual moves easier and the moves themselves in isolation are getting easier.
I'm having the same problem as the route at Dinbren I'd tried previously. On Left Wall I'm getting about 6 moves in and just completely power out, I used to get a similar amount of moves in on the Dinbren route and get the same powered out feeling.
Happy with some progress on it, although it would be great to do the first 6 moves and actually feel like I had enough in the tank to do the next ~10 moves to the knee bar!
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Luke, this is exactly the problem I've had and found baffling that prompted me to contact Tom for an assessment and plan after not solving it myself. I could get pumped on easier routes but on hard routes I'd just power out and fail with forearm's seemingly still ok. 10s rest and I could go again. Tom gave me a dose of AnCap and AeroPow (the latter from the very start so paying no heed to apparent adaption times) and 8 weeks in, while I haven't tried climbing outdoors, I can at least pull off harder moves indoors while pumped daft. Curiously I seem to be able to do this in the middle of my workout but toward the end I again fail with arms a bit podgy. Maybe that just means I'm pitching that particular workout too hard. Obviously it might be different for you but it seems a fairly similar scenario.
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Cheers, sounds very similar! How many sessions of AnCap and AeroPow are you doing a week? I'm currently doing AnCap circuits twice a week but nothing AeroPow related.
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one AnCap session. Started with one AeroPow which upped to two after four week.
Both AeroPow are cleverly constructed to ensure you're climbing harder than you would simply doing reps of a route with equal rest/work times and they're both pretty exhausting too.
Hopefully Tommy will be able to help in the Q&A tonight
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Bit of an update, I've had 6 sessions on Left Wall now. Made good progress but just wondering what I should be doing with my training when I'm not at the Cave?
Session 1: Did it from the horizontal shothole start, and worked the 4 moves from the back.
Session 2 - 4: Linked from the back and kept falling off trying to latch the hold on move 6, completely powering out.
Session 5: Changed beta for the move where I'm failing, makes the move easier but the foot sequence leaving that position harder for the next move. Linked from the back and latched move 6 for the first time then powered out.
Session 6: Got to the same point as last session 4 times but powering out still.
One thing I've noticed is every time I go the moves at the start feel easier and I feel stronger on them but I still power out in the same place.
For the last couple of months I've been training core in the gym, strength on a 45 degree board and ~15 move AnCap circuts at the wall.
Should I just carry on doing this and hopefully I'll just break through the barrier on the route eventually or do something different with my training?
Cheers
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Have you been doing AeroCap as Tommy suggested in the Q&A?
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Have you been doing AeroCap as Tommy suggested in the Q&A?
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As part of my warm ups and warm downs I do. 25 mins as a warm up and 15 mins as a warm down if I have time. I'm only doing low end though.
I'm struggling to understand how an increased aerobic base will help on such a short powerful route given the short time scale I've given myself though...
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Have you listened to Tom's Training Beta Podcast interview Luke? If not it might be worth a listen. very interesting and sort of explains (maybe only in part/simply) how all the systems work together etc... Don't quote me on this I tend to listen to these things whilst doing other things, like driving, and therefore get distracted at times.
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If you're doing that as big blocks it sounds like you're doing what Tom describes as "wasted miles". In the podcast he gives a case study of someone who wants to do a 16 move boulder and the AeroCap he's doing, from memory it's something like 3 x 5 mins at Low Intensity with 5 minutes rest between sets and 5 x 1 min High intensity with 1 or 2 mins rest between sets. Definitely worth a listen, fits your scenario perfectly.
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Thanks guys, sounds interesting, I'll listen to it later when I get home.
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The section you need is from about 56 mins to 1:02
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One thing I've noticed is every time I go the moves at the start feel easier and I feel stronger on them but I still power out in the same place.
For the last couple of months I've been training core in the gym, strength on a 45 degree board and ~15 move AnCap circuts at the wall.
So for months you've been doing circuits that takes about 35 s to complete every gym-session and then when you go out to your project you fall off after 35 s climbing?
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I seem to recall from Barrows' PDF and/or the RCTM that if you increase your AnCap without increasing your AeroCap proportionately, you risk increasing your ability to produce lactate without the corresponding ability to flush it through your system. Result = epic pump.
I may have remembered this wrongly or not understood it correctly science-wise but have taken away the idea that AeroCap is the foundation on which everything else energy-system related rests.
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One thing I've noticed is every time I go the moves at the start feel easier and I feel stronger on them but I still power out in the same place.
For the last couple of months I've been training core in the gym, strength on a 45 degree board and ~15 move AnCap circuts at the wall.
So for months you've been doing circuits that takes about 35 s to complete every gym-session and then when you go out to your project you fall off after 35 s climbing?
I've been doing 8 x 15 moves (40secs) circuits with roughly 1:30min rest between for about 2 months now.
I fall off my project after 6 moves, I'm climbing for about 12 seconds then I power out.
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ok, just checking. Sometimes 6 moves outside can take longer than 15 moves inside
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Only seen you on it this weekend Luke, but it looked to me once you'd sorted your feet out behind the low flake you'd been on a fair while longer than 12 seconds and had been hanging the in same position a while. I always think when I stop moving my forearms give up a lot quicker than if I keep making moves, especially if it's on bad holds, which in the scheme of left wall that shot hole is one of the less positive holds.
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I've been doing 8 x 15 moves (40secs) circuits with roughly 1:30min rest between for about 2 months now.
Maybe make the circuit harder and increase the rest time? If I remember right 2x work time is the minimum rest time but you can take up to 4x.
Edit: this post from Tom may shed some lihgt
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,26622.msg511852.html#msg511852
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For anyone who's interested in how I got on, I managed to do Left Wall Traverse yesterday.
Followed my training plan initially but then lost touch with the AnCap, AeroPow etc. sessions and just trained strength for a few weeks towards the end. Also lost 9 pounds and only did 2 sessions a week red pointing and nothing else for the last 2 weeks. Extra rest and weight loss seemed to help quite a bit!
Cheers everyone for the helpful posts on here.
Anyway, here's a video:
http://vimeo.com/160646264
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Brilliant.... well done!
Love the offspring congrats - I would never get that from my daughter!
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All I saw was some guy walking back and forth in a cave. Well done though!
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Brilliant.... well done!
Love the offspring congrats - I would never get that from my daughter!
Cheers Tom! Yeah, he's psyched, won't be long and I'm sure he'll be showing me how to climb!
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Also lost 9 pounds and only did 2 sessions a week red pointing and nothing else for the last 2 weeks. Extra rest and weight loss seemed to help quite a lot
Good work fella. And perhaps I'm a bitter old bastard, but I'll admit that I'm tickled by success only coming after the salary-man's "training plan" - twice a week on the target, and try damn hard (as you're desperate to make the best of your infrequent climbing).