UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: al on September 19, 2007, 09:45:17 am
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'Later I went to meet Johnny Dawes, the greatest climber of his generation, at the Dinorwig Quarry workings. He started climbing at the age of fourteen, when he was known as the 'leaping boy'........'The whole approach has to be fluid,' Johnny explained 'It's not so much a question of standing on things as moving across the face of it and using one hold to sort of propel yourself on to the next.'........Unbelievably, Johnny Dawes not only got on to that limpet, splayed, friction-based hold, he could use it as a platform for another swing, via more minimally existent nodules, straight on and up the slithery face.'
an extract from the book of the tv show 'Mountain'
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Nice prose there.
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Although why say things like "the greatest climber of his generation", it's just stupid.
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Although why say things like "the greatest climber of his generation", it's just stupid.
just a handy strapline for a tv show, they always mis-represent stuff - having said that I'd agree, if he could share the title with jerry (which I doubt)
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That's a funny thought, the pair of them fighting for space on a small podium, trying to wrestle the award of the other, Johnny looking really flustered and puffed up...
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Perhaps "best gritstone climber"... would be more apt :)
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Indian Face vs Masters Wall ? Nuff Said...
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Here here. Ulysses protracted headpoint vs total onsight?
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I was thinking more along the lines of other disciplines such as sport climbing / alpine climbing / mountaineering. I think there's a danger of the general public interpreting such comments to mean that they are the best climber in all areas, and might even have climbed Everest :lol:
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hmmm Evolution vs The Quarryman or Indian Face? ! Thriller vs The Design Award ;D
I guess it's hard to compare when you move away from trad. Was good to see Johnny on that Mountain program.
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genius, a Johnny vs Jerry debate
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hmmm Evolution vs Indian Face?
...and Indian face wins. First E9 in the world, and still 'unjustifiable' for the only man to have climbed E11, vs a sport climb ten years off the pace. Question?
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I see your point Bubba.
But he's done most stuff.
Trad, we all know. Peak, Wales (1st on sight 1st ascent of E7?)
Sport- a couple of minor routes in Wales
Winter- Winter ascent of Burbage HVSs (see BFA)
Plus services to fashion.
Hardline at Brownstones vs Kaluza Klein. C'mon, you know it makes sense :lol:
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hmmm Evolution vs Indian Face?
...and Indian face wins. First E9 in the world, and still 'unjustifiable' for the only man to have climbed E11, vs a sport climb ten years off the pace. Question?
I suspect that's why he's changed it to Quarryman. However, Marcus Bock thought Evolution 8c+, thereby making it a mere 5(?) years off the pace.
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Plus services to fashion.
Hmmm tweed jackets and baggy trousers. Not exactly Alexander McQueen is he :)
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hmmm Evolution vs The Quarryman?
Understandable edit there, but you'd still be better comparing Evolution to The very big and the very small, which wins again. 8b+ and the hardest slate route and slab route at the country, vs not even the hardest route at the crag?
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Al, why did you have to start the Johnny vs Jerry debate :lol:
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Hmmm tweed jackets and baggy trousers. Not exactly Alexander McQueen is he :)
I was thinking more about the floppy hat and nice tights when he does Sentinel Crack on Best Forgotten Art. Qualitee.
Although Jerry definitely wins with his packet pants at Tom's roof in One Summer.
Bratwurst anyone?
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how many people have repeated evolution compared to indian face?
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Al, why did you have to start the Johnny vs Jerry debate lol
C'mon Bubba, you started it by questioning what everyone else thought was a perfectly reasonable statement. ;)
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I have to say it seems a poor testament to Jerry that Evolution is being bandied about as the most significant of his career, but then I suppose he just didn't churn out the iconic classics like Johnny did.
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I agree, all down to you Bubba. You could fix it by adding a poll to this thread. :lol:
Gonads was quite hard.
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Apologies for editting my post (and then reediting it so your post made sense) I was looking for a sport route comparison for Johnny, I guess I should have gone for Liquid Amber rather then evolution, but I guess Jerry was still a couple of years behind some german guy. Can Jerry win for bouldering? ;D
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to his credit jerry did knock out some well badass classic benchmark shit in his time:
Ulysses, messiah, masters edge, renegade master, little plum, verbal abuse (still one of the hardest limestone trad routes in the peak?), samson, evolution, revelations, powerband, sean's roof, ace, joker, dominator, liquid amber, jerry's roof, and not to overlook declaring the cromlech an "easy and outdated crag". Come to think of it jerry shoudl win on quoteability alone. "we went to the lakes and i was the best", "theres only 3 people who could hang those holds, me, myself and I", "it feels really good to burn someone off", "your foot sticks, you hit the top, its just a great great buzz", "even the fucking lottery can't buy you that" I could go on.
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And for Jerry...
Liquid Amber, probably 8c+, which would make it the first one in the world for the second time, Revelations also having the same claim 6 years earlier.
Flashing the hardest route in France with Chimpanzodrome in '84
Repeating the 3 hardest routes in Europe (Minimum, Spectre, La Rage) within 6 months of coming back from a 2 year lay off, then repeating the 3 hardest routes in America a couple of months later, then going to Germany and doing the first 8b+ there - in today's terms a bit like doing La Rambla, Realization, La Novena Enmienda, Lex Luthor, Dreamtime, and for arguments sake, the Fly, in a few months then adding another 9a+ in another country.
The only person (ever?) to win world cups and climb (maybe) the hardest route in the world in the same year 1989/1990.
Soloing all the routes on the Cromlech in an afternoon or something.
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Dave you're like a fucking encyclopedia, I'd forgotten most of those great quotes. I agree. Jerry wins for being the best self publicist in the business and not giving a fuck who he offended. And for not realising he was repeatedly using a hold called "Moffat - shit stained shorts boy" when training on my board.
Oh and for being the best.
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They're both (or were) great climbers in very different ways. Jerry was much stronger than Johnny, but JOhnny was on the next level in terms of movement. Which of these you value most will determine who you think is best.
Back to the old training vs climbing debate :devangel:
Jerry also had a porsche, and a lancia and isnt a barking fruitcake. Please dismiss the comments in this paragraph as insignificant.
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Thread of the year :)
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and a lancia
.....HF.... 4Wd....turbo......delta.
How many climbing walls does dawes own?
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"30 seconds from my house to stanage. cool."
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My lats are pumped.
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On the Jerry tip: don't forget stuff like Psyche'n' Burn E6 6c at Pant Ifan in 81, Oyster and Masterclass 7c+/8a at Pen Trwyn in 83. He also jumped from the lip of Pigeon's Cave into the sea!
And Jerry's Roof and the Barrel Traverse were Johnny's projects, that is until he showed them to Jerry in 89 - small beer for someone who was at the time (as Ru pointed out) a globetrotting sport climbing superstar; not to mention how, along with Moon, he had pushed British bouldering standards to the next level - Crag X anybody?
All that being said, Johnny was still a total visionary wad of the highest order - just not so hot on the steep stuff. Although the Indian Face draws a lot of the attention, we should not forget things like Hardback Thesaurus in Wen Zawn, possible E8 ground up in 88. Impressive stuff!
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JD was obviously the best in the world at whatever it is he does but what he does is a parochial aspect of the sport unique to to the UK (grit head points and single pitch scary routes on the sea cliffs and mountains) whereas Jerry travelled the globe repeating the worlds hardest routes, often on-sight. He dominated that aspect of the spot for years and was churning out the hardest boulder problems in the UK long after the pack should have caught up. On the other hand people started repeating JDs routes and now every Tom, Dick and Harry has a repeat of JD E8 to their name (although admittedly usually in poorer style). How many have repeated the Ace, Superman, Evolution etc. (ok, ok probably the same number who have repeated the Indian Face, Quarryman, Hardback, Professor etc!!)
All the above is slightly tongue in cheek as they are both exceptional and not deserving of pointless comparisons.
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On Master's Wall in 83:
Moffatt: "I knew I was climbing better than Redhead so I thought I might stand a chance."
Paul Williams to Moffatt before he set off: "Do this and your name will be in the history books forever."
Moffatt after the ascent: "I got to a certain point where I had this imaginary line, where I knew that the runner below me was going to rip out for sure, and the one below that was too low to stop me anyway, so I paused, shook out for a bit, assessed the situation in what I thought was a logical manner, psyched myself up and said, "Right, I'm not going to die." You've just got to have this insane confidence in your own ability."
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He also jumped from the lip of Pigeon's Cave into the sea!
I watched some scouse kids doing that - they must have been about 15 :)
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Don't forget Jerry did this.......
(http://i6.tinypic.com/4uxw7ir.jpg)
And wore these shorts.......
(http://i19.tinypic.com/62fo4yc.jpg)
Johnny's amazing climbing achievements pale into insignificance when compared to the shorts.
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JD was obviously the best in the world at whatever it is he does but what he does is a parochial aspect of the sport unique to to the UK (grit head points and single pitch scary routes on the sea cliffs and mountains
The Scoop was hardly a single pitch. Worldwide trad is the heart of the sport, folk seem to forget that with the dominance of sport in europe.
The facts are Jerry was a bit ahead of the pack for a few years, but there was a pack close behind. He may have burnt off the french one year, but didn't Antoine LeM return the favour the next?
Many of Johnny's routes still haven't had a repeat in equal style to his first ascent. Plus he also travelled and burnt folk off, he just didn't crow about it. I didn't notice Jerry being honoured with the front cover of the Yosemite guide? And if you want to talk cars, again Jerry may have looked flash, but I think we all know who was the faster driver...
On Master's Wall in 83:
Moffatt: "I knew I was climbing better than Redhead so I thought I might stand a chance."
Paul Williams to Moffatt before he set off: "Do this and your name will be in the history books forever."
Though Redhead went back and pissed up Master's wall, saying his bolt 'shook with fear on a totally different concept'
which became the Indian Face only three years later and two full grades harder.
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Johnny's amazing climbing achievements pale into insignificance when compared to the shorts.
Wasn't MC Dave just discussing Johnny's tartan tights recently?? Come on, the fashion card, just like the rest, is too close to call!
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Okay, so MW shied off from the main challenge, but it was still a very ballsy and stylish ascent from Moffatt, and 3 years is a long time, especially at that point in the 80s when standards where rocketing. 2 grades harder, but style wise IF was a headpoint - you almost seemed to have forgotten that JB. Even Redhead didn't agree that it should have been toproped.
And, for the record, sport didn't just dominate in Europe - the yanks fell for it completely.
You don't really believe that Johnny has a comparable record for international ascents do you? If so what exactly are you alluding to? What are these world class repeats that Johnny kept quiet about?
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again Jerry may have looked flash, but I think we all know who was the faster driver...
Driver yes, but rider no :)
This is the only way to settle it - we need to put them head to head on a track day, both cars and bikes. The victor will be the true man.
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JD was obviously the best in the world at whatever it is he does but what he does is a parochial aspect of the sport unique to to the UK (grit head points and single pitch scary routes on the sea cliffs and mountains) whereas Jerry travelled the globe repeating the worlds hardest routes, often on-sight.
I agree, Moffat's name often comes up in interviews in US magazines when people talk about their heros (along with Malcolm Smith), but I haven't seen Johnny's name come up yet. Jerry had renown on a world stage - did Johnny?
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Johnny's amazing climbing achievements pale into insignificance when compared to the shorts.
Wasn't MC Dave just discussing Johnny's tartan tights recently?? Come on, the fashion card, just like the rest, is too close to call!
If you had seen them in the flesh Fiend (see above)...........I'm still mentally scarred.
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but it was still a very ballsy and stylish ascent from Moffatt, and 3 years is a long time, especially at that point in the 80s when standards where rocketing. 2 grades harder, but style wise IF was a headpoint -
My point was in the early eighties Jerry was trying desperately to be 'The Master' with two climbs named Master's wall and Master's edge. Master's edge was climbed ground up by the man Jerry was trying to leave behind before he'd even had a chance to complete his headpoint. Master's wall was quickly repeated and revealed to not be all he'd claimed it was. Both rather backfired on his big mouth and its no coincidence no one has produced such arrogant route names since.
2 grades harder, but style wise IF was a headpoint
I didn't realise Jerry had onsighted Master's, I thought there had been abseil inspection. Which is how Johnny practised Indian Face, not by toproping. I'm not in favour of either but when repeats utilise repeated toprope ascents its worth making the distinction.
I wouldn't agree three years is a long time ever, as every year goes by it amazes me more how much Johnny did just in 1986.
I'm not alluding to any unknown international ascents by Johnny, just suggesting you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.
Jerry was the best for a few years as Ron faded out and before Ben took over. Yes, he did it on a worldwide stage and made sure everyone knew. But he didn't change people's perceptions of the possible in the way Johnny did, nor was he ever as far ahead of his peers as Dawes was on grit, slate and mountain in 1986.
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JB, that is a very well written argument. Well done.
:agree: What he said
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How many years generally constitute a "generation" anyway?
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Al, why did you have to start the Johnny vs Jerry debate
as was said bubbs, its down to you stirring it, mine was just an innocent post ;)
no doubt jerry was stronger and excelled in more styles, and changed climbing standards generally - JD for me though, was ahead of his time and a visionary no question, like 'the human spider' and not many others.......
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The Scoop was hardly a single pitch.
That E6 that Tom nearly on-sighted as a young lad?
I'm not denegrating either the route or climbers here, just playing devil's advocate.
Worldwide trad is the heart of the sport, folk seem to forget that with the dominance of sport in europe.
Not by me it ain't but I do agree with you, I think that is how JD came to be cononised here in the UK because no one has any idea what was going on abroad at the time. I've seen pictures of people soloing 7cs at the top of the Verdon Gorge in the late 80s. With JM it was much more transparent where he was in world terms because of the universality of the grade systems and the fact that he went to everyone else's back yard.
The facts are Jerry was a bit ahead of the pack for a few years, but there was a pack close behind. He may have burnt off the french one year, but didn't Antoine LeM return the favour the next?
Same could be said for JD, Dunne put up New Staesman in 1987 and did Partheon before Dawes.
Many of Johnny's routes still haven't had a repeat in equal style to his first ascent.
Agree
he also travelled and burnt folk off, he just didn't crow about it.
Examples?
I didn't notice Jerry being honoured with the front cover of the Yosemite guide?
You're not really suggesting that Dawes was more influential in the states than Jerry are you?
But he didn't change people's perceptions of the possible in the way Johnny did
I'd say Seb Grieve did more of that by showing that with application and a real desire you could climb a grit E8 if you wanted it bad enough. Simple desire and a moment of madness will not get you up the Ace.
Obvioulsy I'm not denying the influence or ability of JD, he was imense. I'm just joining in the debate because its better than work
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Would you believe it. After declaring Moffatt arrogant, JB comes out with this gem:
you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.
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you blatantly do. With the greatest respect to Mike Lea, he was hardly "Mr Froggatt" was he? Can anyone even remember the name of the guy on the cover of the 1989 roaches guide?
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yeah i noticed that one ;D
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John Perry. Who is local, and a bit of a legend.
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I didn't realise Jerry had onsighted Master's, I thought there had been abseil inspection. Which is how Johnny practised Indian Face, not by toproping. I'm not in favour of either but when repeats utilise repeated toprope ascents its worth making the distinction.
I was always under the impression that Johnny did top rope practice IF - I doubt that he beat it into submission as is the norm nowadays, but a headpoint ascent nonetheless. See the following quotes from John Redhead from a radio programme first broadcast on radio on the 19th of April 1997. Titled "Movement on Rock" it featured a 'discussion' between John Redhead (JR), Johnny Dawes (JD) and others about the first ascent of the Indian Face
JR. The Indian Face was actually top-roped and the gear was pre placed. They didn't like the idea of the bolt but they would top-rope and pre place little nuts in the crack, and the Indian Face was eventually climbed using those tactics which as far as I am concerned is quite shoddy.
JD. There is two types of learning, there's experience and there is proxy knowledge, but you can't form knowledge that you can trust unless you have an experience of something and climbing something like Indian face which doesn't need a name at all and in some ways it would be nice not to have a name for it, makes you...(pauses) it is just too difficult a challenge.
JR. I never climbed the Indian face , no, and since Johnny top-roped and all that furore about all that I have never been back. As far as it goes I am quite pleased with what I did, I think I achieved more than by actually climbing the Indian Face, but the day will come when someone will come along and climb these routes on sight and that will put what has gone on in perspective. What has gone on is ego and it is a little bit shoddy and I think it damages the rock.
I wouldn't agree three years is a long time ever, as every year goes by it amazes me more how much Johnny did just in 1986.
JD certainly did have an amazing year in 86, but 3 years was a very significant amount of time back then. In 83 8a didn't really exist, at least not in England and Wales, by 86 we had jumped to 8b (Zeke); a reflection of the massive changes sweeping through climbing culture at the time.
I'm not alluding to any unknown international ascents by Johnny, just suggesting you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.
As others have said Jerry's international profile was always bigger - which considering what he did abroad, is well deserved
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you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.
time for this (http://johnny.brown.youaremighty.com/) again i feel
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lets just see who wins in a fight (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Jerry+Moffat&word2=Johnny+dawes)
:o damn
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Result! Not just twice the number, a million more!
you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.
For the less travelled amongst you, I was talking about Yosemite.
Panto, notice in that interview only JR used top-rope. JD has told me pretty much all his routes were done with abseil inspection, obviously involving practising moves but much more difficult to string sections together. Mind you I've also had an hilarious tirade from Pat Littlejohn about JR being full of shit and using abseil practice and cleaning just as much as everyone else at the time!
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Yeah, there's all that stuff about JR doing Master's Wall on sight, but Jerry said that he did the line he did because he had watched JR abseiling down the wall to resin up the foothols that traversed out to Spreadeagle.
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JB, first you summon JR as a star witness to trash Moffatt's reputation, then when the tables are turned on your hero, you try to trash JR's reputation with some random attack from Littlejohn (the great anti-bolt campaigner, whom, lest we forget, bolted Cilan Main of all places! - see how easy it is to throw mud).
Anyway, straight from the horses mouth: Johnny being interviewed by David Atchison-Jones in The Power of Climbing, 3rd April 1991:
DAJ: When you try a route and don't do it onsight do you think you should leave it alone?
JD: I'd like to have had the time to try Indian Face on sight, but I think people would have done the same thing as me basically, I was forced into top roping it a lot by really wanting to do the climb.
A pretty non-subjective statement there from Johnny, dontchya think? ;)
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I think, from watching stuff like the 'story of indian face' that some confusion arises due to the use of 'headpoint'. Now-a-days we use it for any prepracticed ascent, back then Nick Dixon explains that headpoint was when you top roped a route to a point that you could climb it subconsciously. With Indian Face being so long, they say that can't head point it as there are too many moves, hence the confusion as he top roped sections of it, but didn't headpoint it as such.
John Perry, the cover boy of the yellow staffs guide, is a true local legend.
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Si, my point was history is about as clear as mud, I'm not trying to put anyone on a pedestal. Johnny's comments to me have been different, what is pertinent is whether JM abbed Master's, not so much whether JD practiced IF move on belay or ab. Entertaining as this debate is, its not serious, is it? And if it is, surely the googlefight more than settles who has been more influential anyway.
Andi, I guess having coined the term Nick has the right to define it but I'm not convinced anyone other than himself has ever subscribed to this 'subconscious' style of ascent as the meaning of the term, least of all Johnny.
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Oh, what larks!
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surely the googlefight more than settles who has been more influential anyway.
Damn you! :'(
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JB, History is, as you say, muddy; this thread demonstrates that much.
By the way, Jerry most definitely did not onsight MW: by his own admission, "It was not on sight but also not as well prepared as it could have been."
"As Jerry moved past the site of the bolt the whole crag stopped to watch. Strung out, Jerry called over, asking advice where the next holds were. About 4 feet above were a chalked set of edges. Fingers on layaways, and feet smearing, Jerry went for it, hung the edges and got himself sorted out. At the time it was the most impressive, bold and serious bit of climbing I'd ever seen." Ian Carr in the recent Cloggy guide.
Ian Carr also made the following comment: "The line was well prepared and top roped a number of times and completely chalked." Which was news to me - I'd always assumed the reason Jerry ended up so strung out was because he hadn't top-roped the line and was sketching on unknown sequences.
:)
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Andi, I guess having coined the term Nick has the right to define it but I'm not convinced anyone other than himself has ever subscribed to this 'subconscious' style of ascent as the meaning of the term, least of all Johnny.
The thing is, if some people see the meaning of 'Headpoint' as different things, then this does go a long way to explaining some of the discrepancies in the history books. Because someone didn't headpoint a line doesn't mean they on-sighted it either, it appears to me that the exact details of the ascents are all that seperates them in quality of style, which can be very vague indeed. We can see that with Ian Carrs's comment of the route (MW) being well prepared on a top rope and completely chalked, this doesn't mean it was climbed or practiced on a rope does it? It could equally be seen as a route which was cleaned and holds marked with chalk, ok it's no on-sight but it isn't a prepracticed ascent either leaving a lot of doubt as to whether the line is climbable by the ascentionist...
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Anyway, straight from the horses mouth: Johnny being interviewed by David Atchison-Jones in The Power of Climbing, 3rd April 1991:
DAJ: When you try a route and don't do it onsight do you think you should leave it alone?
JD: I'd like to have had the time to try Indian Face on sight, but I think people would have done the same thing as me basically, I was forced into top roping it a lot by really wanting to do the climb.
A pretty non-subjective statement there from Johnny, dontchya think? ;)
Although not really relevant I wouldn't go quoting stuff from the interviews in TPOC as gospel. Dave Jones was never one to let the truth get in the way of a good story and although they are written as if it's all "straight from the horses mouth" it most certainly isn't. FWIW I'm sure Johnny said he top roped IF but as mentioned it's not the type of route you can "headpoint" in the way described. ;)
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:agree:
Incidentally, talking of Power Of Climbing, I made my misses look at this book on Saturday night trying to get some interest out of climbing from her and the result was this:
In order of 'fitness'
3. Jerry Moffatt (partially infuenced by his assumed bank balance)
2. Jasper Sharpe
1. Andy Pollitt, so much so that she had to go back to that page for another look. She's always liked a man in a hat.
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Beaten by Pollitt. FFS. :furious:
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Yeah, and in the lead for so long, sorry dude. But it was no contest when she saw what effectively looked like Johnny Brown in a hat...
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I'ts ok. :'(
I suppose in the context of this thread then beating Jerry will do. :dance1:
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Well we all know the ladies love Pollitt, however Airlee has told me (repeatedly) that the general consensus of 'fittest climber ever' amongst the women's scene is Chris Wentworth as pictured on Red walls on the cover of OTE. Both contenders have suffered from their subsequent histories though, and lately I believe a certain dream-eyed, long limbed youth with a lancashire burr to his softly spoken words may be angling for the title.
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however Airlee has told me (repeatedly) that the general consensus of 'fittest climber ever' amongst the women's scene is Chris Wentworth as pictured on Red walls on the cover of OTE.
Wouldn't surprise me, he does look pretty tasty on that cover in a dishevelledly handsome bohemian artist sort of way. If you like that sort of thing.
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lately I believe a certain dream-eyed, long limbed youth with a lancashire burr to his softly spoken words may be angling for the title.
John Redhead? Thought he was from Hull?
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You Leek lads are priceless! Its not 1980 you know.
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Its not 1980 you know.
What!!! Since when!
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Since 1981 ;)
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. . . and lately I believe a certain dream-eyed, long limbed youth with a lancashire burr to his softly spoken words may be angling for the title.
That would be me then!!!!
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apples...oranges???
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err....
ahem
" as I crumbled some more chalk into my already overfilled chalkbag I cast my eyes speculatively upward..."
Ron fawcett, in climber and rambler... in if i remember correctly the FIRST asc article of masters edge, not Jerry - jerry named it as the 1st to climb it "would trult be the master"
I await to be ridiculed by the historians :'(
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Wall... Edge... Cloggy... Millstone... :-\
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on the wine after work was we fatdoc :alky:
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er..
no!!!
I'm still pretty sure (cos I cannt be arsed to re-read the whole thread again...) that there are references on here to masters edge being climbed by jerry 1st... soz if that's not the case, the quote from Ron is truly mint however and should make up for any historical inaccurarcies I may have made.
as regards my spelling, yeah sorry, it's shite :shrug:
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in the early eighties Jerry was trying desperately to be 'The Master' with two climbs named Master's wall and Master's edge. Master's edge was climbed ground up by the man Jerry was trying to leave behind before he'd even had a chance to complete his headpoint.
I take it you mean this. Read it again, more carefully this time.
The quote from Fawcett on Rock bears repeating at this juncture:
Extensive practice on a rope enabled Moffatt to climb it without top-rope tension and pronounce it possible. He then declared his intention of returning to make the first ascent when the good weather came, and proclaimed that whoever led it on sight would have to be The Master. When he climbed it, therefore, he would name it The Master's Edge.
Meanwhile, whilst Moffatt strutted about waiting for spring, Ron nipped it and climbed it without pre-practice, only one fall, and serving an ironic twist to Moffat's route name.
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I'm still pretty sure (cos I cannt be arsed to re-read the whole thread again...) that there are references on here to masters edge being climbed by jerry 1st...
Maybe read the thread again... Wall... Edge.... Cloggy.... Millstone... ::)
Brilliant thread BTW especially now Ron's got dragged into it too. Andi - where did your girlfriend rate Fawcett on the fitness scale?
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A straightforward 'No'. The top three she produced, were the only three she liked, although an ex of mine did like the picture of Ron climbing Breadline in 'Rock Stars', so I dumped her.
On a completely different tangent, have any of you seen the robotic arm of Radtke on Page 360 of Yorkshire Gritstone. This was pointed out to me the other day. I really want one, I think it'll help on those bunters.
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in the early eighties Jerry was trying desperately to be 'The Master' with two climbs named Master's wall and Master's edge. Master's edge was climbed ground up by the man Jerry was trying to leave behind before he'd even had a chance to complete his headpoint.
Meanwhile, whilst Moffatt strutted about waiting for spring, Ron nipped it and climbed it without pre-practice, only one fall, and serving an ironic twist to Moffat's route name.
So JB, just so we're all clear here, are you absolutely sure that Ron didn't ab down Master's Edge before he did it? It's just that I feel like I'm straining to see through that muddy water again...
:)
(best thread in ages, by the way)
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It may also be worth pointing out that JM was planning to solo Masters Edge as he was ignorant of the protection possibiliites.
What's that saying about history being written by the victorious?
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This is what I've got from one source on the interenet: Moffat said about Fawcett's Master's Edge that "anyone who could do this climb without abseiling down it first, or practising it on a top rope, would be a true master."
Although I'm sure I've read in the original ascent right up that he said "whoever on-sight solo's this route would be a true master". I'm pretty sure it's in Climber & Rambler November 1983, where he says all this stuff first. I haven't got time to find it right now, but will have a look later. It has a pic of jerry with his chest puffed up looking very proud of himself. It's in his right up about the Master's Wall first ascent.
Although it's all bravado and a great read and perhaps a sponsors dream, I have always taken it a slightly different way. I've seen it as Jerry admitting 'I've practiced these routes, I'm not that great, it'd take a true master to do these routes on sight' as opposed to 'I want to/have climbed these routes, I am a true Master'.
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Spot on Andi as I remember it.........
1. Jerry definitely said that only a true master could solo it on-sight.
2. By definition this means he was admitting he was NOT the true master as he had already been practising it.
Although not well known for his modesty you can't dis Jerry for this one.
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Jerry told me once as when I was prostrate at his feet and muttering invocations to lime green lycra that he had hung out a lot with John Bachar just before this, and Bachar was into this idea of The Master, as some sort of zen-like being who had total control over his fear, and that's what The Master of this was. Also, he had got from Bachar a funny ethic that if you demeaned a route by top-roping it beforehand, you were then only allowed to solo it, you weren't allowed to lead it.
Also, I think you run a bit a risk by taking the puffed-up comments from what was obviously a much more tongue-in-cheek era, as historical detail. I bet Ron and Jerry and Redhead all really enjoyed winding each other up.
And I also wonder if Master's Wall wasn't a name that that piece of rock acquired before the ascent. I mean, The Tormented Ejaculation is a much modester name for mans' efforts.
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Also, he had got from Bachar a funny ethic that if you demeaned a route by top-roping it beforehand, you were then only allowed to solo it, you weren't allowed to lead it.
I've also heard of this ethic. I recon it could be interesting applied to the grit. It would certainly lessen the trade-route traffic on stuff like EOTA, parthian, gaia etc!
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The last two guides to Millstone both state that Ron 'reportedly' practiced the moves but didn't do it in a oner - this was always my understanding, I think from a piece Ron wrote at the time describing the winter over which he did ME, Mint 400, Neon Dust, One Step Beyond Direct Start (which, remember, he did clipped into a long sling on the wire in the mid height slot) and others in one of his periodic comebacks. Frankly it would be out of Ron's (and everyone elses') normal style at the time for him to have done this ground-up. Besides, if he did why have subsequent claims for first ground-up (Basher)/OS ascents been broadly accepted? OTE 20 has a great article by Basher about his ascent. I had the pleasure of watching Mark Leach make the second ascent. This was definitely practiced.
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good to see I've clarified the ME issue, not.
I too see JMs comments on the master being those of *I'm not THE master, one day someone will be*
I've not got my mid 80s climbing mags anymore.... but childlike long term memory often serves me well - I recollect RF having said he abbed the line of ME and tried some moves on the rope.
Best thread of the year BTW
(except FOOD glorious FOOD, of course ;) )
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much more tongue-in-cheek era, as historical detail. I bet Ron and Jerry and Redhead all really enjoyed winding each other up.
It'd be dynamite If they had the internet back in them days and they were all posting on a forum bragging about this or that and we could read what was been said now. pipe dreams
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Yeah I'm pretty sure Ron abbed down Master's Edge, but didn't practise any moves. Fawcett on Rock just says vaguely; 'Ron went to millstone to inspect Moffat's unled line.'
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I reckon Ron practiced it. There's no evidence for it, but it is scientific fact. Plus its about as vague as Luke Skywalker saying he ground-upped it. Lets face it no-one knows, fewer people care, the fact remains that none of these men come close to the DARKLORD.
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Yeah I'm pretty sure Ron abbed down Master's Edge, but didn't practise any moves.
is that like not inhaling
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Yeah I'm pretty sure Ron abbed down Master's Edge, but didn't practise any moves.
is that like not inhaling
Or the niceties of how you define sexual relations. Just how likely is it?
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Ah, the murky water is clearing, we are beginning to see what really happened, JB didn't actually mean 'ground up' when he said 'ground up'.
Better now, yes.
I look forward to more truth revealing inquisitions.
How about Fawcett not really climbing Zoolook? At least not in the conventional/modern sense of a one push/no falls ascent. The word at the crag when I was a frequent habitue of the Malham-Kilnsey-Gordale axis of steep whiteness was that (allegedly) big Ron had fallen off on the upper section, then lowered back to the big undercuts, and then pulled on and climbed from there to the top. It seems that in 1985 the redpoint ethic was not set in concrete. This could of course just have been malicious gossip, but I'd be curious to know if any of you old gits heard something similar on your travels.
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Maybe you're right Simon, that nowadays redpointing is such an airtight box. Maybe at any given time in history, if you get away with the claim, than you've done it. Read the Stoney bit of Extreme Rock. There's a bit wher the guy comes acrodd come people trying, I think, Kellogg. Someone had lowered off from above the crux, so the 'First Ascensionist' tied on and led to to top with the ropes still clipped. His name's in the book.
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having witnessed the first free ascent of cream team special,that girdle affair on raven tor.such tactics were used as getting your mate to aid across then lower off leaving the gear in place for ron.falling off then resting on the end of the rope before climbing back up and starting where you left off.also one or two shiney footholds appeared to be used where the exsisting at that time aid routes crosed the girdle.
as for masters edge with no moves practised about as likely as livesey not chipping downhill racer.
a mate of mine witnessed rons and liveseys first attempt to free cave route at gordale.various dodgy tactics were used by livesey which included jumping for a bloke aiding up the route next door.having reached a high point 2thirds of the way up.he then lowered off and ron was then pulled up to the high point.he then climbed to the top with2 more points of aid and it was claimed with 3 points of aid.
there for a 60 foot pulley system only counts as a single aid point.
he wasn't always st ron.
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I always really enjoyed the cheeky Livesy stuff. He really seemed to me to be somebody who got the joke. Not sure Ron got it, but I just have visions of a cheeky twinkle in Pete's eye as he gets to work on Downhill Racer, having a little sn**ger to himself.
Another thing. You often here shit about various climbers, but it stands out thatI have never heard anyone ever, saying anything that ever took anything away from Joe Brown, John Allen and Johnny. I bet that says something about climbers like them.
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Another thing. You often here shit about various climbers, but it stands out thatI have never heard anyone ever, saying anything that ever took anything away from Joe Brown, John Allen and Johnny. I bet that says something about climbers like them.
Is that a challenge?! I'm sure the UKB inquisition squad can sniff something out.
;D
Actually, I've never heard anyone slag Ben Moon off for dodgy practices. Obviously he pissed the French off by being better than them, but that doesn't count.
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except for that photo in Power of Climbing where he'd building some holds out of putty on hubble perhaps! trowel in hand.
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there are chipped holds on silent spring and above and beyond. :whistle:
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or the pof rag in shot on brad pit front cover ote 67 was it?
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Dave - he was filling holds in to make it harder, an admirable practice in my book. ;)
Jim - good call, I'd forgotten about that. I remember being in a pub in Sheffield shortly after with CJD; we sat down with a group of Sheffield heads, including Ben, and CJD asked him if he reckoned he could have done Brad Pit without the pof. I nearly pissed myself laughing; Ben was less than amused by the implication.
Webbo - the crux sidepulls on Zoolook were (allegedly) star drilled to make them better. I won't say who told me that little snipe.
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wasn't it implied that ron chipped some holds on one step beyond?
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Ok, I've found it High Magazine Sept/Oct 1983 'Jerry Moffatt Climbs Master's Wall': No mention of a top rope, but he abseiled the line four times that day and had Stevie Haston shouting out where the holds were on his ascent, so not an on-sight but not a head point either. Just a well inspected line.
The article finished off with "The next big route I want to do is the lower section of Great Arete at Millstone. I've top-roped it properly, without any tension, but I'll wait until the cooler weather before I try and lead it. I'll call that Master's Arete, because anyone who came along and climbed it on sight would have to be The Master."
I suppose that clears up a couple of things.
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This may be of interest to some - I just clicked a link to Urban Climber and noticed they are featuring, amongst other things, a homage to Johnny Dawes. Never read this magazine - is it any good?
http://www.urbanclimbermag.com/
Whilst on the topic, what's the story behind the rumour of Johnny Dawes getting close on Superman? When was this, and how close did he get?
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but he abseiled the line four times that day
genius.
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talk about things getting blown out of all proportion. the story about johnny on superman will be from me, since i was there and was using it merely to chastise people who said he was weak. all i said was i was visibly shocked how strong he actually was compared to the myth that perpetuates him being weak. he was light years away from doing it but he was doing moves and looking like a bouncing ball on them. this was also in his post halcyon days. probably more impressive was him trying to double dyno lift off and landing like a cat 30 yards downhill
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What's that Dense? You saw Johnny do Superman? Fucking amazing. I'd heard he was weak, but...
Where's that UKClimbing News button...
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in fucking sneakers! the most amazing thing i ever saw. started getting nervous about the french spots tho
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Jesus, Johnny is Superman, always thought he had a warm glint to his eye and was sure I saw him wearing his pants on the outside on Superman VIII: The Best Forgotten Art.
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Both of the were ahead of the game at the time they were at their peak, but totally different in style. Johnny with his Grit/Slate/Mountain stuff and Jerry with his onsighting, bouldering, fast repeats and occasional new routes.
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Is that a challenge?! I'm sure the UKB inquisition squad can sniff something out.
;D
Easy on Simon, I'm not talking about rubber gloves, baby oil and a gritstone phallus. I mean in climbing terms.
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Quite. What he does behind close doors is his business, it in no way demeans his climbing.
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Easy on Simon, I'm not talking about rubber gloves, baby oil and a gritstone phallus. I mean in climbing terms.
Grimer, get your schoolboy mind out of the gutter. Don't you know that the UKB inquisition squad is only interested in matters of a high falutin nature - ours is a quest for pure ethics and daring deeds carried out in the face of overwhelming adversity.
Back to the matter in hand: I once heard tell of a certain rockstar who climbed a test piece route, then returned and knocked some of the holds off, just to make sure that the jackals waiting in the wings to repeat the route would have an extra hard time, thus cementing the reputation of the said rockstar. I also heard that another rockstar climbed a route with a particularly desperate crux sequence, only to see his extra tall second reach past the hard moves. Peeved at the bypass of his masterpiece, this particular rockstar then abbed down and 'adjusted' the holds so that the reachy bypass could not be used.
It's all shocking stuff and one day somebody will have to spill it all in the ultimate expose: The 1980s uncovered!!! :o
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Agreed, Simon. As Johnny Brown (quite apt) said, what he does to his own back door is his business.
So, are 'said' rock stars one of the three unimpeachibles? Was it Joe Brown (oh no! not him too!)?
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How about Fawcett not really climbing Zoolook? At least not in the conventional/modern sense of a one push/no falls ascent. The word at the crag when I was a frequent habitue of the Malham-Kilnsey-Gordale axis of steep whiteness was that (allegedly) big Ron had fallen off on the upper section, then lowered back to the big undercuts, and then pulled on and climbed from there to the top. It seems that in 1985 the redpoint ethic was not set in concrete. This could of course just have been malicious gossip, but I'd be curious to know if any of you old gits heard something similar on your travels.
I heard plenty of similar shit about Big Ron. It's always slightly tarnished his image for me but I suppose everyone was at it at the time. Be interesting to try to find out who actually did the first proper ascents of these routes (or rather the ascent which would be considered proper with today's ethics applied). Actually it would be a proper ball-ache to find out but interesting to know the answer if someone else did all the research. :whistle:
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Think it was widly reported that Ron had lowered down but not all the way, think he claimed he was lowering to a no hand rest where he could jam his head underneath an undercut and take his hands off briefly. It was acceptable to lower to a no hands rest at the time but I think Ron was bending the ethics slightly!
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one day somebody will have to spill it all in the ultimate expose: The 1980s uncovered!!! :o
Haven't you got a gogarth guide to finish first?
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Yes, I know, first things first. Working on Upper Tier topos right now.
...but one day, that 'other' book will get published (and whoever writes it will have to leave the country sharpish for fear of reprisals from a gaggle of aging rock stars)
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Smart, that could do with some topos. Out of curiosity what's the official advice going to be about the death gearing up/picnic spot above the collapsing descent gully?
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...but one day, that 'other' book will get published (and whoever writes it will have to leave the country sharpish for fear of reprisals from a gaggle of aging rock stars)
That book would be fucking dynamite. Its a shame that it'll never be made
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Think about the autobiographys of Dawes and Muffatt,,,
Very big long words would be called something like, Vendi Vindi Vinci.
Can not spell words would be called, I looked good and felt grate! I was the beast!
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Think about the autobiographys of Dawes and Muffatt,,,
Very big long words would be called something like, Vendi Vindi Vinci.
Can not spell words would be called, I looked good and felt grate! I was the beast!
Eh? ???
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The V.V.V. thread was aimed at the Dawes being related to the Medichi,
I was the Beas... oh, never mind...
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I was the Beas... oh, never mind...
You were the beas kneas Pat
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"Were, WERE"
Another title for Moffatt could be the "Me, Myself and I" corker he came out with...
hope the Dawes finishes his book one day...soon!
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"Are" :)
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one of the best stories i heard was about routes on a certain yorks lime crag which has a rep for big bold mort routes.
a certain mr hougie dall said he done a route there a round the time of the first ascent and he said the chalk only went as far as the crux.when the claimed first ascentionist found out hougie had done the route apparentley he was desperate to find out on which date mr dall had done it.when he was told he claimed to have done it a day or two before.
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As in "There are only three people in the world could do that move. Me..."
Me Myself and I was what I called Jerry's Ape Index show. Did anyone see that. The best ever.
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No, could imagine the slackjaw swaggering around on stage, i do rate Jerry, The thing about the pair of them is their egocentric mannerisms get in the way of some pretty soulfull expressions, Know what I mean...
JD's book could also be called "The Micro-cosmists reign of the Macrocosm" a true story...
you gotta love them...
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Agree Grimer, Jerry's show was the most inspiring climbing related thing I have ever seen. The Dunney one was unforgettable for other reasons...
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Aye, the Dunne one was awesome. the threat of violence gave it a real sence of excitement.
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"Are" :)
Thanks Andy...
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You "Are"se still the beast kneast
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Smart, that could do with some topos. Out of curiosity what's the official advice going to be about the death gearing up/picnic spot above the collapsing descent gully?
As long as people are careful I don't think this is such a big deal. The path below the crag is just as unnerving in places.
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You "Are"se still the beast kneast
Thanks G, (I think)
Still, I think the prospect of me writing an autobiography is Nil, possibly a pamphlet?
or maybe a post it...
memo...
dunno!
hello...
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hello pat :)
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:thumbsup:
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For those not eagerly absorbing every news item as it arrives from UKC-Mick, here's an interview (http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/dawes/)
I saw the first pic and thought it was Chegwin.
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Nice one! Following quote is worth including, given the discussions above:
And the top bit I couldn’t work on a rope, because of the nature of where it was, so I did that bit onsight. The top bit of Gaia was onsight. It was a mantle, and I’d sketched where I was going to put my foot. I’d had a really good look at it, and knew what the move was, and committed myself to that move, knowing from experience that that would make that much friction and all I could hold on.
So, my basic style was not really to toprope the routes — it was to try them on abseil so I got all the moves, and then the last bit of unknown would be doing them on a link, when I led it. So, whether that’s easier or harder, I have no idea, but that’s how I did my routes. What I did it, I did them in sections, so I’d abseil down, do a move, do two more moves, grab the rope, clamber down the rope, jump into the rock, jump up on the rope and take some rope in, and then I’d try the next overlapping section. But what I hadn’t done was do the whole thing in a oner.
What about the term “headpointing”?
I invented the word headpointing, I think. But I don’t like it — it’s a terrible expression
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Johnny was answering a question about Gaia, not IF. I'm sure Johnny's 'basic style' was as he describes, but there was a very important exception which he fully admitted to in the Power of Climbing interview (which took place only 5 years after the ascent).
You should be a spin doctor JB. ::) Maybe you already are?!! :-\
Also, not sure about the 'onsight' bit at the top of Gaia either, and didn't Nick Dixon invent the term 'headpoint'?
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One thing strikes me about a lot of this. It's that on-sighting E7 and above on grit must be incredibly hard. Even if you look on here and see people like Jasper and Johnny Brown - both very talented climbers with very strongly held ethical opinions about styles of ascent - yet it seems to me that even they are not regulary on-sighting grit E7. I mean Jasper earlier referred to working through E4s and 5s, while at the time was probably capable of font 8as. Not having a go, Jasper, but with the talent and ethical opinions, should yourselves and many others not have been pissing all over Gaia, Beau Geste, Appointment with Fear, Braill Trail? Even Johnny, did he ever repeat anything on grit harder than E6?
What I'm trying to say is that a lot of people have talent, a lot of people have strong ethics but if you look at the facts, it's obviously a lot harder than people give it credit for.
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:agree: I think there is simply too much of a gamble, especially so on Grit with it being very unpredictable. I had some very hard times on HVS's at the weekend, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to solo several of these despite only being in the 5b sort of grade, so being in a dangerous 6b situation - onsight - is a very serious risk indeed. Without any sort of 'inside' information these routes could provide far too great a gamble for most, if any people to consider justifiable.
Perhaps on other rock types, the likelihood of harder on-sighting is more likely?
I'm sure The Dawes also once quoted something along the lines that 'the two most dangerous things in climbing are: loose rock and on-sighting hard gritstone', makes sense to me.
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It's that on-sighting E7 and above on grit must be incredibly hard.
I don't agree, its just not fashionable. The reason I'm not regulary onsighting grit E7 is cos I'm not regulary onsighting E5 either. I am by no means in the premier league for my generation, I have been lucky enough to climb with some of them though.
When Leo decided to do some grit E7s, he onsighted four in a weekend. Ryan is similarly capable of this and is out there doing it, he just forgets and isn't arsed/ doesn't understand the media. His flash of End of the Affair was one of the most significant ascents of the last few years, who heard about it? I think he thought it was piss n'all.
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Yes, you might not be in the premier league, but you are capable, easily so, of flashing things like End of the Affair. They are, as you say, relatively piss.
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Yes, you might not be in the premier league, but you are capable, easily so, of flashing things like End of the Affair. They are, as you say, relatively piss.
That was what was going down your right leg when you did it Grimer I hear...
;)
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yes but grimer had prepracticed this bit too
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It's that on-sighting E7 and above on grit must be incredibly hard.
I don't agree, its just not fashionable.
My punter's opinion is that even if the routes were bolted they'd be hard to onsight - you'd basically be going at them like you're trying to flash a boulder problem. It's just because they're short and technical style routes, you get a lot of grade in not very much space or length of time.
If you look at most of the routes of E7, or even E6 (though I don;t know what Ross etc. have done) and above that get onsighted, they're long, often stamina, routes, Dove Crag, Pembroke, Gogarth, Sron. Macleod's done an E7 or two recently hasn't he? If you're on ground at your stamina limit, as well as the likelihood of gear and `safe' runouts you're more likely to be able to faff your way up, sorry use craft and cunning. Where as you can be as strong as you liek on natural grit, if you use a duff sequence, the `wrong' smear or pebble, you're off, cos you probably also have to climb in a committing fluid way. Add to that conditions and weirdness and you see that you can't buy talent.
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I agree with parts of what you're all saying (grimer, JB, Paz). The reasons I think that there aren't many people onsighting E7 and upward on grit are partly that the routes are quite hard, partly that even if they're not that hard they're easy to fluff and partly that there aren't that many capable people interested in pushing the standard forward.
Grimer - no offence taken at all. I didn't do anything remotely hard on grit partly because I didn't reckon I was that good on it, partly because yeah the routes are tough to onsight but mainly because I wasn't really interested.
You have to remember this was before the headpointing 'explosion' and nobody I was climbing with was interested in climbing hard grit. People like Malcolm, Smythe, Cupboard, Gaskins and even Gresham back then were all just into training, bouldering and going to Buoux. Gritstone was nice for a day out bouldering and soloing easy stuff but the cut off was E4/E5 for me because anything harder would have taken proper commitment instead of being fun.
Perhaps if I'd not stopped when I did I would have done more but I doubt it as top roping stuff and then leading it never really appealed to me. Onsighting was always what I enjoyed on grit but the level of commitment you're talking about with most E7s was certainly not. I think I got scaring myself out of my system by the time I was 14.
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That's a really good point, the historical context of what was done when to regard to what was the *in* thing at the time has a bearing on all of this grit acsent style for sure.
Certainly for me i got into sport climbing rather late. I was into the pre-practice and then ascent style on grit for a few years before I discovered bolts, and loved it. At the time I have to say it really wasnt in vogue, most of the hard grit routes / crags were deserted.
The only true sheff devotees at that time that i knew were into the same sort of repeats were mike lea, shaun huston and nige prestige... no doubt there were others.
For the history books: before mobiles and the tinterweb some early ascents were much prized and often who did what when was rather obscure... I remember well cleaning the chalk mark tick and "mike" written next to the starting holds of adam smiths before i led it!!!