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the shizzle => news => Topic started by: shark on November 07, 2021, 03:01:02 pm

Title: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shark on November 07, 2021, 03:01:02 pm
Report just in. William Bosi has done Brandenburg  :jaw:


:dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: andy popp on November 07, 2021, 03:06:41 pm
Holy cow!

Cue insane grade debates.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: jwi on November 07, 2021, 03:14:26 pm
haha! awesome.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: lukeyboy on November 07, 2021, 03:15:00 pm
Report just in. William Bosi has done Brandenburg  :jaw:


:dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1:

 WOW! :bow:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Nibile on November 07, 2021, 03:27:43 pm
Holy sh*t!!!
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Fiend on November 07, 2021, 03:53:30 pm
Report just in. William Bosi has done Brandenburg  :jaw:


:dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1:

Top reporting shark!!  :strongbench:


P.S. for the love of god please start a "Could This Be Britain's First F9b+/c?!?!l thread...
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: IanP on November 07, 2021, 04:03:38 pm
Amazing!! The next generation really stamping its mark on UK sport climbing.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: duncan on November 07, 2021, 04:05:06 pm
Great stuff.

A separate news item surely?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shark on November 07, 2021, 04:11:06 pm
Great stuff.

A separate news item surely?

Sorry was a bit giddy
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 07, 2021, 04:12:01 pm
So good! News of the year!

Given how quickly he's done it surely can't be more than 9a+?  :fishing:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bradders on November 07, 2021, 04:25:16 pm
Incredible stuff, so cool!

What a year he's having.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Wood FT on November 07, 2021, 04:34:52 pm
Just brilliant, an extra page of Peak Rock is written.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Andy F on November 07, 2021, 04:41:30 pm
Properly insane  :jaw:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shark on November 07, 2021, 04:49:36 pm
He did it in two halves on Thursday. Wasn’t there today but apparently it looked effortless - chalk and blow
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: grimer on November 07, 2021, 04:58:24 pm
I happened to see it yes looked relatively casual.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shark on November 07, 2021, 05:06:08 pm
I happened to see it yes looked relatively casual.

Talk about being in the right place at the right time
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: grimer on November 07, 2021, 05:17:10 pm
Quote from: shark
Talk about being in the right place at the right time
[/quote


Yes it was a stroke of luck for Will.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Ged on November 07, 2021, 06:10:07 pm
I've heard of this project over the years, but for those of us that aren't peak lime officianados, could someone give some cobtext/pictures/stories as to why this is so significant?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 07, 2021, 06:23:29 pm
I've heard of this project over the years, but for those of us that aren't peak lime officianados, could someone give some cobtext/pictures/stories as to why this is so significant?

Prepare to be underwhelmed  :lol:

(https://i.imgur.com/xoZ8e1B.jpeg)

It's number 26 on this topo. Basically a direct start to Make It Funky 8c (number 27 on the topo). It's famous because it's at Raven Tor, it's really hard and it's been tried by lots of wads over the years. Most notably Gaskins had some really good burns on it but was never quite able to seal the deal.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: petejh on November 07, 2021, 06:27:26 pm
Wow :icon_beerchug:
Everyone can stop now, that's rock climbing completed.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: ali k on November 07, 2021, 06:36:01 pm
Please tell me it finishes up 30 and then 18 and goes to the top of the crag?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bradders on November 07, 2021, 06:41:27 pm
Any indication as to whether it will still be called Brandenburg Gate? Surely as the first ascentionist Will now has the right to call it what he wants.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: nai on November 07, 2021, 06:44:38 pm
Any indication as to whether it will still be called Brandenburg Gate? Surely as the first ascentionist Will now has the right to call it what he wants.

Guess we'll find out when the news exclusively breaks in about three days
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 07, 2021, 06:46:49 pm
Please tell me it finishes up 30 and then 18 and goes to the top of the crag?

30 is Mecca Extension which weighs in at a techy ~8a from the chains. No idea what Will actually did but I can imagine he stopped at the chains unless he'd pre-planned to do the extension, would be a pain to drop the top having done the bottom (unless you were going for some sort of Ben Moon style 'drop it then do it' Hubble throwback tick).
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: teestub on November 07, 2021, 06:49:56 pm
What's 28 on the topo? That looks like the straightest line to finish 26!
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 07, 2021, 06:53:44 pm
What's 28 on the topo? That looks like the straightest line to finish 26!

28 is Mega Whore 8c which is technically a link of Make it Funky in to The Whore of Babylon A0/8a. It'd add about an 8a on top of whatever Brandenburg gets.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Kingy on November 07, 2021, 06:54:28 pm
I saw this go down, it was awesome! Looked fully in control on all the moves. Finished as for Make it Funky i.e. at the Mecca belay
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Fiend on November 07, 2021, 06:58:48 pm
Holy cow!

Cue insane grade debates.
Insane AND inane, ideally!

I wonder how many stars this kingest of king line LGPs will get...
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Ru on November 07, 2021, 07:00:10 pm
Great that this has been done as it pretty much closes the Raven Tor book. Most eagerly anticipated 1* route ever?

It's famous because it's at Raven Tor, it's really hard and it's been tried by lots of wads over the years. Most notably Gaskins had some really good burns on it but was never quite able to seal the deal.

Not sure anyone really tried it apart from Gaskins? Don't know who put the bolts in.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Wood FT on November 07, 2021, 07:07:53 pm
Great that this has been done as it pretty much closes the Raven Tor book. I saw Gaskins try it a lot in 2002 as I did MiF that summer so was right next to him. Most eagerly anticipated 1* route ever?

It's famous because it's at Raven Tor, it's really hard and it's been tried by lots of wads over the years. Most notably Gaskins had some really good burns on it but was never quite able to seal the deal.

Not sure anyone really tried it apart from Gaskins? Don't know who put the bolts in.

What was Gaskins like on it?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: grimer on November 07, 2021, 07:08:25 pm
It was 26 into 28 as far as jugs at the bottom of the flake then reversing to take out the draws. It’s tiny.

To be fair everyone at the crag was taken to the Anglers and BoB threw the credit card behind the bar. Madness. It was like the scenes in the Fat cat after Vickers and Fliss won the Foundry Open in 93.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Will Hunt on November 07, 2021, 07:12:00 pm
Good work by Bosi.
This is the first time I've actually seen a topo of the Tor. It puts the whole "Gaskins was three moves from easy ground" thing in a different light - that's a third of the route by my eye.

I'm a bit gutted to discover that this is what BG looks like. I'd envisaged a steep wall of non-existent holds soaring up and out of sight.

To be fair everyone at the crag was taken to the Anglers and BoB threw the credit card behind the bar. Madness. It was like the scenes in the Fat cat after Vickers and Fliss won the Foundry Open in 93.

Tbf that is pretty cool.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Wood FT on November 07, 2021, 07:28:10 pm

To be fair everyone at the crag was taken to the Anglers and BoB threw the credit card behind the bar. Madness. It was like the scenes in the Fat cat after Vickers and Fliss won the Foundry Open in 93.

Bullllllllshit
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Kingy on November 07, 2021, 07:29:16 pm

Not sure anyone really tried it apart from Gaskins? Don't know who put the bolts in.

I think Ste Mac had a play on the moves but don't think he spent much time on it
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Ru on November 07, 2021, 07:31:12 pm
What was Gaskins like on it?

On the moves through the stepped roofs he was mostly pulling on then falling straight off again when I saw him. He was doing bigger links above that (the remaining 2 - 3 moves into MiF). Others saw him do more on it I think.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Wood FT on November 07, 2021, 07:35:06 pm
What was Gaskins like on it?

On the moves through the stepped roofs he was mostly pulling on then falling straight off again when I saw him. He was doing bigger links above that (the remaining 2 - 3 moves into MiF). Others saw him do more on it I think.

Ta
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Will Hunt on November 07, 2021, 07:59:24 pm
Tbf that is pretty cool if true.

Just realised that this is Grimer talking and I don't want to appear completely credulous.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: cheque on November 07, 2021, 08:00:00 pm
This is the first time I've actually seen a topo of the Tor. It puts the whole "Gaskins was three moves from easy ground" thing in a different light - that's a third of the route by my eye.

I'm a bit gutted to discover that this is what BG looks like. I'd envisaged a steep wall of non-existent holds soaring up and out of sight.

There’s an easy way up round the back too.

This might help the Tor-uninitiated:

(https://i.imgur.com/xoZ8e1B.jpeg)

4. Indecent Exposure, 7c
7. The Full Monty, 7c+
10. Body Machine, 7c+
13. An In & Out of Body Experience, 8a
14. Body Builder, 8a+
15. The Prow, 8a
16. The Crucifixion, 8a
17. Proud Whore, 7c+
18. Brazen Strumpet, 8a
19. Jehovakill, 8b+
20. Revelations, 8b
21. Rage, 8b
22. Anger Management, 8a+
23. Rage into Crucifixion, 8b
24. Hubble, 9a
25. The Whore of Babylon, A0/ 8a
26. Brandenburg Gate
27. Make it Funky, 8c
28. Mega Whore, 8c
29. Mecca, 8b+
30. Mecca Extension, 8c
31. The Hajj, 8c
32. Kaaba, 8c+
34. Stevolution, 9a

Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Duncan Disorderly on November 07, 2021, 08:10:03 pm
 :bow:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 07, 2021, 08:23:51 pm
To be fair everyone at the crag was taken to the Anglers and BoB threw the credit card behind the bar. Madness. It was like the scenes in the Fat cat after Vickers and Fliss won the Foundry Open in 93.

The Groucho club comes to Miller's Dale.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bradders on November 07, 2021, 08:25:22 pm
Thanks Cheque.

Not being familiar with the Tor, why would you not finish up Mega Whore? From the topo that looks the best line.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: jwi on November 07, 2021, 08:27:24 pm
Holy cow!

Cue insane grade debates.
Insane AND inane, ideally!

I wonder how many stars this kingest of king line LGPs will get...

If Bosi does not credit his nutritionist and ballet teacher I will unsubscribe
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: moose on November 07, 2021, 08:45:09 pm
Is it plausible that since the only person to give this any real attention was possibly a bullshitter / fantasist, that BG isn't all that hard in the grand scheme of things?  By which I mean it's Hubble-esque in grade, rather than the paradigm shifting route I had innocently imagined when I first heard of Gaskins' efforts.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: teestub on November 07, 2021, 08:55:39 pm

If Bosi does not credit his nutritionist and ballet teacher I will unsubscribe

I've heard the the new Lattice Chakra Alignment service was the key missing part of the puzzle.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: grimer on November 07, 2021, 09:01:06 pm
Having witnessed the ascent I’m going with 9a+/b and I’m not accepting any comments on my post. When he got to the Mecca flake he brewed up using a gas cylinder left there by El mocho. Peppermint apparently
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: moose on November 07, 2021, 09:05:18 pm
Having witnessed the ascent I’m going with 9a+/b and I’m not accepting any comments on my post. When he got to the Mecca flake he brewed up using a gas cylinder left there by El mocho. Peppermint apparently

Armchair grades are the most accurate grades.  Obvious innit - not confused by investment, emotion, or fatigue.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Kingy on November 07, 2021, 09:30:05 pm
Not being familiar with the Tor, why would you not finish up Mega Whore? From the topo that looks the best line.

The Tor is notable for its steep undercut starts and much easier finishes and a convention was established since the FA of Revelations, Mecca and Hubble and others that routes tend to have belays put in at the end of the real difficulties and arrival at bomber rests/ good holds rather than subject repeaters to the sometimes relatively plodding finishes (its all relative (!), in comparision to what's gone before is what I mean).

I can put it no better than Jerry Moffat when asked about Evolution in the mid nineties TV series Pennine Rock:
"People have questioned why it finishes there in the middle of the wall. But you get to a good hold and it's the obvious place to finish. For anyone climbing at my level they wouldn't even question it."
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: abarro81 on November 07, 2021, 09:32:49 pm
Jerry needs his eyes tested if he thinks that's the obvious place to finish
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Stu Littlefair on November 07, 2021, 10:05:15 pm
I think Will’s done the decent thing here by finishing at the Mecca flake. Now the next generation can add their own batch of easy finishes and we can add another 6 or 7 lines on that topo.

As an aside I can never forgive Steve for not calling Mega Whore “Make it Longer”.

Bet this gets one of those modern grades the kids use, like “9a if you can climb 9b”.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: kc on November 07, 2021, 10:13:19 pm
There isn't any logical reason to finish at the Mecca belay. I'm sure it is only because there is actually a belay there. When I was trying MIF and replacing some of the old bolts I did consider installing an alternative belay on some really good jugs up the line of 28 horizontal to the number 30 on that topo. This didn't change the grade and was where a transition of style occurred on Mega whore. I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't finish here if I had installed an attractive belay. If you build it they will come!
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Ru on November 07, 2021, 10:19:27 pm
There isn't any logical reason to finish at the Mecca belay. I'm sure it is only because there is actually a belay there. When I was trying MIF and replacing some of the old bolts I did consider installing an alternative belay on some really good jugs up the line of 28 horizontal to the number 30 on that topo.

That's where Gaskins envisaged finishing if I remember rightly. He was climbing up to a crab on a bolt by the jugs there.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: kc on November 07, 2021, 10:27:36 pm
Yes I think your right. Those DMM eco bolts did appear whilst he was trying it, however they also go up to the the main break.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: 36chambers on November 07, 2021, 10:43:36 pm
what are the odds on this getting a repeat before Mutation gets another ascent?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 07, 2021, 11:08:20 pm
Looks like 9a+ is the grade, and footage available tomorrow morning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqoVQxpYwlw
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 08, 2021, 12:35:58 am
Wow :icon_beerchug:
Everyone can stop now, that's rock climbing completed.

 ;D This is amazing.
..

Oh yeah, and someone unified particle physics and general relativity. Worth a mention.

Edit. Thinking about it's proximity to Hubble, a particle physics reference would be quite cool.
The Graviton ;)
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Fiend on November 08, 2021, 07:45:44 am
So not even the hardest route at The Tor, woohoo.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: ali k on November 08, 2021, 09:14:01 am
That’s hilarious. Clipping the chains and celebrating after 4 bolts of climbing with the rest of the crag towering above him disappearing off into the distance… :lol:

What a funny sport.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: edshakey on November 08, 2021, 09:16:15 am
Not even a sit start?!?! Piece of cake

Looks like 9a+ is the grade, and footage available tomorrow morning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqoVQxpYwlw

Absolutely cruised it, great stuff
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: jwi on November 08, 2021, 09:19:18 am
That’s hilarious. Clipping the chains and celebrating after 4 bolts of climbing with the rest of the crag towering above him disappearing off into the distance… :lol:

What a funny sport.

An idea reduced to the absurd. I like it.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: teestub on November 08, 2021, 09:49:36 am
That’s hilarious. Clipping the chains and celebrating after 4 bolts of climbing with the rest of the crag towering above him disappearing off into the distance… :lol:

What a funny sport.

Also finishing at a belay that’s only there because (if I remember correctly) Basher couldn’t climb what is now Mecca extension, so added a lower belay! Good old sport climbing.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Ru on November 08, 2021, 10:30:22 am
Just seen the video. Looks like a totally logical sequence but being fair  to Gaskins it’s nothing like how he was trying it. John was trying a sequence that involved gastoning the right hand side pull with his left hand to get a very poor undercut in the roof with his right hand. From there the three crux moves were reaching to the undercut  on the lip of the next roof, but taking it as a down pointing pinch, matching that, reaching to the pocket above with left hand, flipping right hand to an undercut and from there the same sequence as Will does. Might have been a height thing as the reach to the pocket from the sidepull looks like it might be a stretch, or might just have been a case of missing the obvious.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: jwi on November 08, 2021, 10:39:56 am
I have the impression that the best climbers in the early 90s did things with absolutely bonkers sequences because they were bad at climbing. That's why they only did 8c/9a despite having 9c strength.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Johnny Brown on November 08, 2021, 10:43:31 am
It's almost as if given marginal strength gains post Moon/Smith technique has actually improved. I did think there was no way Gaskins would have used that high heel, although maybe Ru is suggesting he did?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: AMorris on November 08, 2021, 10:50:04 am
Fantastic footage of a pretty historic first ascent! Looks like John was right about the grade all along.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bonjoy on November 08, 2021, 10:58:00 am
It's almost as if given marginal strength gains post Moon/Smith technique has actually improved. I did think there was no way Gaskins would have used that high heel, although maybe Ru is suggesting he did?
This is my reading of the last twenty years. Strength has gone up a bit, technique (and endurance) has gone up quite a lot.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 08, 2021, 10:59:58 am
I have the impression that the best climbers in the early 90s did things with absolutely bonkers sequences because they were bad at climbing. That's why they only did 8c/9a despite having 9c strength.

Is it not more likely that they actually didn't have 9c strength, and that their strength has been in large part mythologised? I suspect the best in the 90s were significantly better at climbing than the rest of their cohort, just like the best now are better at climbing than you or I. If technique has improved present day compared to then (arguable I think, and certainly style dependent), then that's the result of numerous factors.

Edit: technique has obviously improved massively today from the 90s; I just meant I don't take this fact to mean that climbers in the 90s were bad at climbing.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bonjoy on November 08, 2021, 11:01:40 am
Just seen the video. Looks like a totally logical sequence but being fair  to Gaskins it’s nothing like how he was trying it. John was trying a sequence that involved gastoning the right hand side pull with his left hand to get a very poor undercut in the roof with his right hand. From there the three crux moves were reaching to the undercut  on the lip of the next roof, but taking it as a down pointing pinch, matching that, reaching to the pocket above with left hand, flipping right hand to an undercut and from there the same sequence as Will does. Might have been a height thing as the reach to the pocket from the sidepull looks like it might be a stretch, or might just have been a case of missing the obvious.
In my experience from trying and often failing to climb new things, it's very easy to get lost in over-complex or just plain bad sequences when you're too weak to climb the sequence which actually works if you have the guns.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Liamhutch89 on November 08, 2021, 11:26:30 am
Re: lack of strength gains since the 90's. Were people 1 arming edges with 20-30kg in their other hand back then?

edit: it seems they all concentrate a lot more on mobility these days too, especially the comp climbers.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: cheque on November 08, 2021, 11:29:25 am
He makes it look so easy you’d never think it was a last great problem. Surely Ste Mac would have done it years ago if it was really 9a+ though?

I have the impression that the best climbers in the early 90s did things with absolutely bonkers sequences because they were bad at climbing.

An era when using drop knees etc. was considered gay no less.

Fantastic footage

Let’s not get giddy.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: gme on November 08, 2021, 11:45:37 am
Great to see this done at last and the legend put to bed,nice one Will for making the effort. Im not that surprised at the grade and would hazard a bet its not that much different to Hubble, certainly looks steady in the footage. Few more ascents and it may settle to 9a.

Other than john i dont think anyone tried it so its hype that stopped it being done. Did Steve ever try it? I know that Ben, Jerry etc didn't and think Malc only had a fondle. Rumors and legends stopped things being done for years in the past, careless Torque and brad pit being two classic examples. Takes someone decent to not listen to the hype and have a go.

Looks link you could link it into Busters thing!!! Raven tor the crag that keeps on giving.

And its nothing to do with technique, climbers are way stronger than the top boys were in the 90s. Much much stronger.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Johnny Brown on November 08, 2021, 11:55:17 am
Let’s not get giddy.

You've got to take it in the context of an embargo debacle surrounding some crap pics of a less newsworthy ascent only a week ago.

And its nothing to do with technique, climbers are way stronger than the top boys were in the 90s. Much much stronger.

Must be 'juicing' then?  :lol:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: AMorris on November 08, 2021, 11:56:58 am
Let’s not get giddy.

Granted it's hardly cinematography at its finest :lol: but after all this time I would have taken Grimer drawing pictures of the ascent on a napkin
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: abarro81 on November 08, 2021, 12:33:37 pm
I hadn't realised it was quite such a LH start to MIF (rather than being more independent)...
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bonjoy on November 08, 2021, 12:42:21 pm

And its nothing to do with technique, climbers are way stronger than the top boys were in the 90s. Much much stronger.
I assume you're being deliberately hyperbolic. It's obviously not an either/or. Both have increased and neither has an agreed on means of measuring relative advancement. So to a great extent it's a matter of opinion which type of improvement you see as being more instrumental in grade advancements. You've obviously pinned your colours to the strength mast to the exclusion of technique being a relevant factor. Having climbed with lots of people way better and way stronger than me for decades I've seen significant gains in both general technique and strength. And I do think yesterday's climbers would have achieved more with a little better technique than today's climbers would with a little extra strength.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: cheque on November 08, 2021, 01:03:16 pm

This might help the Tor-uninitiated:

(https://i.imgur.com/xoZ8e1B.jpeg)

4. Indecent Exposure, 7c
7. The Full Monty, 7c+
10. Body Machine, 7c+
13. An In & Out of Body Experience, 8a
14. Body Builder, 8a+
15. The Prow, 8a
16. The Crucifixion, 8a
17. Proud Whore, 7c+
18. Brazen Strumpet, 8a
19. Jehovakill, 8b+
20. Revelations, 8b
21. Rage, 8b
22. Anger Management, 8a+
23. Rage into Crucifixion, 8b
24. Hubble, 9a
25. The Whore of Babylon, A0/ 8a
26. Brandenburg Gate, 9a+
27. Make it Funky, 8c
28. Mega Whore, 8c
29. Mecca, 8b+
30. Mecca Extension, 8c
31. The Hajj, 8c
32. Kaaba, 8c+
34. Stevolution, 9a

Possibly of further interest, here’s the topo from the 1969 guide.

(https://i.ibb.co/q76dbqp/9982-B244-2-C24-4-A4-B-AB1-E-18-D8-F9733-FC4.jpg)

1. Koran, HVS
2. Hubris, A3
3. Prow Route, A3
4. Brandenburg Gate, A2
5. Mecca, A2
6. Bolt Route, A2
7. Sardine, A3
8. Girdle Traverse, A2
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Will Hunt on November 08, 2021, 01:06:34 pm
I wonder what grade it'll be once someone finds the kneebars.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Aussiegav on November 08, 2021, 01:07:22 pm
I think the reason it went so quickly is due to a number factors;
its the evolvement of the sport;

- the styles of climbing have evolved - as someone mentioned above
- the preparation for the send -  tactics
- advancements in training knowledge and training facilities
- equipment
- also the psychological barrier. Will has been on a tear this year so going on this isn't really pushing 9b+/9c so the mindset/confidence of sending is greater.


IMO, I think the logical thing should have been to take the line as high up as it can go (25-30m). Being the first ascensionist and having that climbing ability, it seems a missed opportunity to make Brandenburg Gate a longer/better  and possibly more sustained route.

Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: edshakey on November 08, 2021, 01:11:25 pm
IMO, I think the logical thing should have been to take the line as high up as it can go (25-30m). Being the first ascensionist and having that climbing ability, it seems a missed opportunity to make Brandenburg Gate a longer/better  and possibly more sustained route.

Any chance of him going back and doing that? Or reckon he's done with the tor for a while
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Will Hunt on November 08, 2021, 02:19:49 pm
I've just shown the footage to Daisy and the verdict is as follows:

Quote
You what? He's just climbed a 2m bit of rock.
...
Doesn't it go higher?

After I showed her the topo and explained about Mecca Extension etc:

Quote
Wouldn't you just go up to the next blob?

He's so low they could have passed his sandwiches up to him.

I'm annoyed that you made me watch that.


I love this woman.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Wellsy on November 08, 2021, 02:22:32 pm
Not a bouldering fan I take it :D
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Adam Lincoln on November 08, 2021, 02:23:03 pm
I've just shown the footage to Daisy and the verdict is as follows:

Quote
You what? He's just climbed a 2m bit of rock.
...
Doesn't it go higher?

After I showed her the topo and explained about Mecca Extension etc:

Quote
Wouldn't you just go up to the next blob?

He's so low they could have passed his sandwiches up to him.

I'm annoyed that you made me watch that.


I love this woman.

Don’t know where she gets it from? 🤣😉
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 08, 2021, 02:36:00 pm

IMO, I think the logical thing should have been to take the line as high up as it can go (25-30m). Being the first ascensionist and having that climbing ability, it seems a missed opportunity to make Brandenburg Gate a longer/better  and possibly more sustained route.

But isnt that the thing, it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing. It would be like having a 7a+ that finishes at a logical jug, with a 6a extension. Seems pretty pointless to me.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: andy moles on November 08, 2021, 02:40:54 pm
Well I guess this ascent is symbolic, the next generation of British sport climbing has truly arrived. Major props to Will Bosi for leading the charge.

However, you have to feel a little for our top performers when this is the substance of the myth, the quality of last great problem that (no longer) remains.

It looks sooooo shit  :lol:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: jwi on November 08, 2021, 03:01:50 pm
Re: lack of strength gains since the 90's. Were people 1 arming edges with 20-30kg in their other hand back then?

edit: it seems they all concentrate a lot more on mobility these days too, especially the comp climbers.

I saw an interview with Alex Huber, who did a very early 9a+ thanks to singular focus on training and should be in a good position to know, that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength. Maybe it is self-serving mythologising, but I do not get that impression.

I also remember ot have read some self reported training performances of the great alpinist of the 30s, both on edges and on pullups (alas cannot find them right now). If they were true, Herman Buhl et al where definitely a lot stronger than I ever been. (But then again, some self reported cardio performances by the great Reinhold Messner are obvious lies)
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 08, 2021, 03:15:44 pm
I saw an interview with Alex Huber, who did a very early 9a+ thanks to singular focus on training and should be in a good position to know, that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength. Maybe it is self-serving mythologising, but I do not get that impression.

Without some actual numbers I'd be very skeptical. It's just way too easy to look back at these things with rose tinted glasses (Im as guilty of this as anyone).
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: andy moles on November 08, 2021, 03:17:09 pm
that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength.

I find that hard to believe. Maybe they haven't got much/any stronger, but why in spite of ever improving training knowledge would everyone have failed to get close?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: jwi on November 08, 2021, 03:22:28 pm
.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: ali k on November 08, 2021, 03:36:14 pm
that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength.
I find that hard to believe. Maybe they haven't got much/any stronger, but why in spite of ever improving training knowledge would everyone have failed to get close?
Michael Hawkins still holds the Kilnsey Crag Race record, unbroken since 1982. I have no idea if that's relevant to the discussion  :tumble:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 08, 2021, 03:42:22 pm

Without some actual numbers I'd be very skeptical. It's just way too easy to look back at these things with rose tinted glasses (Im as guilty of this as anyone).

This.

There is a similar debate about fast bowling in cricket, with one camp maintaining that the West Indian and Australian fast bowlers in the 70s and 80s were the quickest ever and the current crop are carthorses by comparison. Its infinitely more likely that the speeds attributed to the 70s/80s bowlers were inflated, they looked faster due to the way they were played (badly), the lack of safety equipment gave them an aura todays bowlers dont have etc etc.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Liamhutch89 on November 08, 2021, 03:44:32 pm
Every sport with hard numbers shows improvement over time. Every sport without hard numbers has fans romanticising about the past.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: abarro81 on November 08, 2021, 03:46:41 pm
it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.

IMO the best routes always start at the bottom and go to the top. Occasional exceptions exist for rock quality, vegetation etc. At least this one is at the tor, so it was never going to be one of the best anyway! Obvious finish from the Mecca chains would be up Hajj, which while relatively easy for Will, would still be dropable (I guess comparable to doing a short 8b to a big jug then having a 7c+ headwall to put on top - you shouldn't drop it, and it maybe doesn't change the grade, but it still adds spice)
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bonjoy on November 08, 2021, 04:00:52 pm
 :agree: .. but obviously it makes total sense for Will to finish at the Mecca belay for now and bank the LGP. I dare say adding extensions won't be a massive challenge for him (more an assortment of cherries on the cake), but they'll be something to do in lieu of other obvious local challenges. 
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: gme on November 08, 2021, 04:01:17 pm

And its nothing to do with technique, climbers are way stronger than the top boys were in the 90s. Much much stronger.
I assume you're being deliberately hyperbolic. It's obviously not an either/or. Both have increased and neither has an agreed on means of measuring relative advancement. So to a great extent it's a matter of opinion which type of improvement you see as being more instrumental in grade advancements. You've obviously pinned your colours to the strength mast to the exclusion of technique being a relevant factor. Having climbed with lots of people way better and way stronger than me for decades I've seen significant gains in both general technique and strength. And I do think yesterday's climbers would have achieved more with a little better technique than today's climbers would with a little extra strength.

Hasty part of my post which didnt come out well. I agree technique has improved but it was suggested that this was the major thing and that todays top climbers are only a bit stronger and its technique thats the difference and i dont agree with that, they are much stronger now. What Malc was doing back in the day is nothing for the best lads now, part of a training session.

I dont agree with saying that technique was bad back in the 80s and 90s though some of the best technical climbers i have ever seen where back then {Marc and Antoine}. Most of the top climbers had superb technique. Other than the new school heels, knees and compression, i think strength and fitness has come on more than technique, especially if you counter in equipment improvements.

Like it or not the cutting edge of climbing is physical and there is a point where no amount of extra technique will get you up the hardest stuff.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: gme on November 08, 2021, 04:07:16 pm
Re: lack of strength gains since the 90's. Were people 1 arming edges with 20-30kg in their other hand back then?

edit: it seems they all concentrate a lot more on mobility these days too, especially the comp climbers.

I saw an interview with Alex Huber, who did a very early 9a+ thanks to singular focus on training and should be in a good position to know, that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength. Maybe it is self-serving mythologising, but I do not get that impression.



Rose tinted specs. Todays wads are another notch up. Megos did AD in how many goes?

The sport is a little more mature now though so the gaps dont look as big on paper.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: jwi on November 08, 2021, 04:15:06 pm



Rose tinted specs. Todays wads are another notch up. Megos did AD in how many goes?

The sport is a little more mature now though so the gaps dont look as big on paper.

Megos is a lot better climber than Güllich ever was. Look at any video of Wolfgang climbing if you have doubts. Stronger? I am far from convinced.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bonjoy on November 08, 2021, 04:21:06 pm
My point in the other thread is that you can't afford to be lacking in either nowadays. I think in the 90s particularly  advances in technique lagged behind advances in strength somewhat, which is totally understandable given the types of training that had just been developed. There were brilliant technicians but they arguably tended to not also be the very strongest climbers. Now the top climbers are undoubtedly both.

Quote
Other than the new school heels, knees and compression....
I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 08, 2021, 04:27:16 pm
Megos is a lot better climber than Güllich ever was. Look at any video of Wolfgang climbing if you have doubts. Stronger? I am far from convinced.

Im sure Megos is pretty technically good, but AD took him 2 hours whereas it took Wolfgang 11 days. Maybe Wolfgang was stronger in some very particular ways, but I really struggle to think of him as a stronger climber overall.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: gme on November 08, 2021, 04:31:30 pm
My point in the other thread is that you can't afford to be lacking in either nowadays. I think in the 90s particularly  advances in technique lagged behind advances in strength somewhat, which is totally understandable given the types of training that had just been developed. There were brilliant technicians but they arguably tended to not also be the very strongest climbers. Now the top climbers are undoubtedly both.

Quote
Other than the new school heels, knees and compression....
I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.

A bit like that old school route mutation that Will just took 40 days on. Needs to get working on his technique.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: gme on November 08, 2021, 04:37:06 pm
Megos is a lot better climber than Güllich ever was. Look at any video of Wolfgang climbing if you have doubts. Stronger? I am far from convinced.

Im sure Megos is pretty technically good, but AD took him 2 hours whereas it took Wolfgang 11 days. Maybe Wolfgang was stronger in some very particular ways, but I really struggle to think of him as a stronger climber overall.

Jerrys comment to me when he came back from spending some time with Megos at Cafe Kraft, and out in the jura, was that he wasnt just stronger and better than his generation were, but was in an utterly different league. Having watched Megos on the school board when it was set at the wrong angle i would agree.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bradders on November 08, 2021, 04:40:03 pm
it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.

IMO the best routes always start at the bottom and go to the top. Occasional exceptions exist for rock quality, vegetation etc. At least this one is at the tor, so it was never going to be one of the best anyway! Obvious finish from the Mecca chains would be up Hajj, which while relatively easy for Will, would still be dropable (I guess comparable to doing a short 8b to a big jug then having a 7c+ headwall to put on top - you shouldn't drop it, and it maybe doesn't change the grade, but it still adds spice)

This, 100%.

The idea of stopping when the difficulty eases just makes no sense, I don't care how hard the overall climb is. To compare with say Malham, many of the routes off the catwalk are quite short, but they stop when the difficulty significantly increases, not the other way round. Stopping at a decrease is nothing but a cop out.

I suspect what's really happening with Jerry's comment is that he and others may have worried they'd fall off if they carried on, but if so it's not so easy then is it!

Fair enough to Will for simply climbing what was the original vision, but if I were him I'd be straight back there to take it to the top of the crag. Frankly it's a bit embarrasing for British climbing that this clutch of some of our hardest routes finish in such a poor way, Mutation being the obvious exception, and Evolution as well given the extensions to that do add significant difficulty.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Will Hunt on November 08, 2021, 04:50:48 pm
it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.

IMO the best routes always start at the bottom and go to the top. Occasional exceptions exist for rock quality, vegetation etc. At least this one is at the tor, so it was never going to be one of the best anyway! Obvious finish from the Mecca chains would be up Hajj, which while relatively easy for Will, would still be dropable (I guess comparable to doing a short 8b to a big jug then having a 7c+ headwall to put on top - you shouldn't drop it, and it maybe doesn't change the grade, but it still adds spice)

This, 100%.

The idea of stopping when the difficulty eases just makes no sense, I don't care how hard the overall climb is. To compare with say Malham, many of the routes off the catwalk are quite short, but they stop when the difficulty significantly increases, not the other way round. Stopping at a decrease is nothing but a cop out.

I suspect what's really happening with Jerry's comment is that he and others may have worried they'd fall off if they carried on, but if so it's not so easy then is it!

Fair enough to Will for simply climbing what was the original vision, but if I were him I'd be straight back there to take it to the top of the crag. Frankly it's a bit embarrasing for British climbing that this clutch of some of our hardest routes finish in such a poor way, Mutation being the obvious exception, and Evolution as well given the extensions to that do add significant difficulty.

Yep. I can see why you'd play it safe and bank the 9a+ bit, but you'd think you'd go back to finish up Mecca Extension or Hajj at least - at least to stop some bellend doing it after you, giving it more stars and putting 9b on it.

While we're at it I can't think of any sane reason why Hubble shouldn't finish up The Prow. Is this a good crag or isn't it?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Fiend on November 08, 2021, 04:57:58 pm
Looks like 9a+ is the grade, and footage available tomorrow morning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqoVQxpYwlw
Magnificent. Despite all the armchair negativity in this thread.

Seriously though, he does climb it well. Would be quite a whipper if you muffed clipping the chain.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Duma on November 08, 2021, 04:59:22 pm
Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: andy popp on November 08, 2021, 05:06:59 pm
Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.

I'm still utterly confused as to what Shark is trying.

I actually rather love that the route is so ridiculous and don't think it's spoiled by not going any further.

And only one preclipped draw! Which kind of amazed me.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bonjoy on November 08, 2021, 05:11:30 pm
My point in the other thread is that you can't afford to be lacking in either nowadays. I think in the 90s particularly  advances in technique lagged behind advances in strength somewhat, which is totally understandable given the types of training that had just been developed. There were brilliant technicians but they arguably tended to not also be the very strongest climbers. Now the top climbers are undoubtedly both.

Quote
Other than the new school heels, knees and compression....
I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.

A bit like that old school route mutation that Will just took 40 days on. Needs to get working on his technique.
Reading Steve's diary entries and listening to the interview with Will it seems pretty clear that Mutation is an outlier in terms of conditions dependent difficulty. Clearly both climbers would have ticked the route a good deal sooner if they'd got the (rare) conditions window. I don't  think it can really be held up to prove technical ability hasn't advanced much, any more than it can be used as proof that modern climbers are light years ahead in terms if strength.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: cheque on November 08, 2021, 05:23:33 pm
Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.

 :thumbsup: Neither Anger Management or Cross n Angry have lines on the topo though so good luck with that.  :lol: As far as I can tell They’re combinations of 10, 15, 16 & 21.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 08, 2021, 06:21:47 pm
Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.

Cross’n’angry starts up bodymachine, then traverses right to prow belay #1, then goes directly up and into crucifixion. So 10 up to Then join 15 where it travels right, then up 21 into 16. Basically takes in the best bits of the left side of the tor. Imo
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Kingy on November 08, 2021, 06:31:47 pm
These long linkups seem destined for obscurity. I did Kabaa into Resistance is Futile, a cool, steep 7c extension to Chimes to the top of the crag which added nothing gradewise to the original but don't think it will ever be repeated as most folk are content to call it good at the Mecca extension loweroff (not totally hands off there BTW).
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 08, 2021, 06:35:58 pm
Jerry needs his eyes tested if he thinks that's the obvious place to finish

Anyone climbing at Jerry’s level wouldn’t even question it.
Apparently.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: petejh on November 08, 2021, 08:24:58 pm
Possibly of further interest, here’s the topo from the 1969 guide.

(https://i.ibb.co/q76dbqp/9982-B244-2-C24-4-A4-B-AB1-E-18-D8-F9733-FC4.jpg)

1. Koran, HVS
2. Hubris, A3
3. Prow Route, A3
4. Brandenburg Gate, A2
5. Mecca, A2
6. Bolt Route, A2
7. Sardine, A3
8. Girdle Traverse, A2

Presumably those faint lines between 5 and 6 represent Shark in what would 30 years later become Ben's Roof.


Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 08, 2021, 09:39:25 pm
Dude, that’s some siege.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 08, 2021, 10:16:09 pm
This is all entertaining stuff.

Few points.

Fully appreciate Will not being bothered with "completing the route" - and sidestepping into the Mecca belay. However, I, like most folk here would probably opt for something different. Any chance of a belay at the weekend? Mind, there'll probably be a queue on it!

I'm presuming - looking at the footage - that the first draw was clipped and climbed down from. It certainly looked clippable. (Edit. Yep, watching again, easy peasy.)
If not, then I'd still call that an aided ascent.

If anyone thinks the footage makes it look as though Will rinsed it, I think they're mistaken. The margin between a "no mistakes ascent" and failure is measurable as about 1.6 x 10-35m on any move.

Still trying to think of other route name suggestions.. Violent New Brand  ;D

This is still massive news for UK rock.

If he was Jerry, he'd call it something like The Willberforce..
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Stabbsy on November 09, 2021, 08:06:15 am
Coincidentally, the replacement for the Hubble telescope (launched 1990) called the Jimmy Webb Space Telescope (yes, really) is due to be launched next month. Meanwhile, 3m to the right at Raven Tor….
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: SA Chris on November 09, 2021, 08:32:36 am
Amazing. Now he's got the tick, surely the linkups are the obvious choice.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Sidehaas on November 09, 2021, 09:44:11 am
Interesting reading the comments above about the route finishing half way up the cliff, and then seeing the clip from a new 9b just put up at Margalef (link from the other channel's latest 'ticklist' article)
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CV0uck_D846/?utm_source=ig_embed

We are not alone! In this Margalef example the guy is also open that he is still working the route above. It seems strange to me that he has claimed a route at the point he got to, but maybe that's the local ethics.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: IanP on November 09, 2021, 09:47:12 am
Amazing. Now he's got the tick, surely the linkups are the obvious choice.

Not sure he thinks so - answered the question on the comments to the youtube vid:

'Very different style to Mutation so not really comparable, you could extend it but it wouldnt change the grade and as the route is about the boulder at the start it doesnt make much sense to keep going.'
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: cowboyhat on November 09, 2021, 11:23:35 am
The idea that he should have kept going up some moderate ground is TOTAL BOLLOCKS.

Hubble doesn't finish up the Prow, nor has anyone ever considered that.

Dave I hope you were making a joke
I'm presuming - looking at the footage - that the first draw was clipped and climbed down from. It certainly looked clippable. (Edit. Yep, watching again, easy peasy.)
If not, then I'd still call that an aided ascent.


Good effort Will. The route looks like Hubble but a bit harder. Chapeau.

As with a lot of the Tor/Peak Lime routes; good choice to stick with the old aid route name. Thanks Mike for posting the aid topo.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: cheque on November 09, 2021, 11:28:25 am
Why are people acting like they’ve never heard of sport routes that finish partway up the cliff before?!
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: abarro81 on November 09, 2021, 11:41:47 am
No-one is acting like that. People are saying that routes that start at the bottom and go to the top are better. Because they are*.

Earlier lower offs are usually a historical thing and there because the extension adds difficulty (see most intermediate chains in Europe, Mecca, Evo, Raindogs etc.). Sometimes they even get removed (e.g. Biographie L1, or a route I did in France the other week). Sometimes they're convenience because the extension doesn't add difficulty but does add inconvenience (see Hubble - you need to remember how to climb the top bit, have clips in etc.)... this is ok, but not as good as going to the top IMO*. With this one it's the latter, though I bet Hajj is droppable even for Will unless he has it dialled.  Like I said - a short 8a+ with a headwall finishing up a 7c is still better when taken to the top IMO, even if no change in grade (this is why I finished up Waddge when I did my Belly's gonna get ya link - it made it go from the very back to the top)... but then I like long things, and I can see why you wouldn't bother, and I'm sure I've done that on stuff in the past (e.g. Ted's example of Kaabah, where it didn't even occur to me to keep going up and right) so I'm definitely a hypocrite.

* Perhaps the distinction here is quality of route vs funness experience? Short things with long easier exits may give many people a more fun experience when finished low (due to reduced faff) but are, IMO, still a less good route and don't pass the "why didn't you go to the top" test that a pre-climbing version of yourself would ask. Kinda like traversing off WSS.

p.s. It can still be good, just not AS good IMO. Single pitch routes at the bottom of Ramirole are still amazing even if they don't go to the top of the cliff...
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: SA Chris on November 09, 2021, 12:22:05 pm

Presumably those faint lines between 5 and 6 represent Shark in what would 30 years later become Ben's Roof.

Historic moss more like.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bradders on November 09, 2021, 12:41:23 pm
Interesting reading the comments above about the route finishing half way up the cliff, and then seeing the clip from a new 9b just put up at Margalef (link from the other channel's latest 'ticklist' article)
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CV0uck_D846/?utm_source=ig_embed

We are not alone! In this Margalef example the guy is also open that he is still working the route above. It seems strange to me that he has claimed a route at the point he got to, but maybe that's the local ethics.

I don't know how these people sleep at night.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 09, 2021, 04:02:38 pm

Dave I hope you were making a joke
I'm presuming - looking at the footage - that the first draw was clipped and climbed down from. It certainly looked clippable. (Edit. Yep, watching again, easy peasy.)
If not, then I'd still call that an aided ascent.



I'm not, actually.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 09, 2021, 04:06:06 pm
Coincidentally, the replacement for the Hubble telescope (launched 1990) called the Jimmy Webb Space Telescope (yes, really) is due to be launched next month. Meanwhile, 3m to the right at Raven Tor….

Yes, I'd heard that, but now you've pointed out the obvious very funny connection. Weren't they also developing a refractor called the Dave Graham..?

Yes, keeping the route name Brandenburg Gate is great too.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Wellsy on November 09, 2021, 06:03:27 pm
Will Bosi did the route and he did it to the generally accepted for a long time and extensively used existing belay, surely?

If people want to say he should have kept going on the extension I dare say that the Tor hasn't gone anywhere and they can go and try it themselves if they fancy
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Kingy on November 09, 2021, 07:36:23 pm
I was going through a link up phase several years ago and did Mecca extension into Proud Whore stepping left at the upper shake. Even though it was 8 more bolts after the Mecca chains, the grade was still 8b+ as the extra climbing was about 8a? or so. Pretty pumpy if memory serves. It got repeated once a few years ago. Apparently Ste Mac used to do extensions up Mecca to the top of the crag as training for Spain at one time
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: kc on November 09, 2021, 08:04:26 pm
I've always called you "link-up Ted" behind your back or should that be "Super link-up Ted".
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Kingy on November 09, 2021, 08:32:29 pm
haha, I can think of worse names!  8)
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: lagerstarfish on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 pm
Now I'm trying to work out who link-up Spotty is.

Anyway. Nice one Will.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Fiend on November 09, 2021, 09:47:25 pm
haha, I can think of worse names!  8)
"Spunk-up lier Ted" is one possible anagram!  :blink:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: duncan on November 10, 2021, 03:50:00 pm
Interview with grimer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xxoGteAFwQ
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 10, 2021, 03:53:53 pm
what about the big bang?  :lol: grimer is so shit on his climbing history. Makes me not feel so bad about skipping past it in hard grit now!  :chair:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: danm on November 10, 2021, 04:03:30 pm
Big Bang isn't at the Tor, so as a fully paid up member of the Sheffield Mafia you should know it must be ignored. Have a word with yourself Duncan ffs.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Will Hunt on November 10, 2021, 04:07:57 pm
Within the first minute Grimer says that Raven Tor is more or less the centre of hard climbing in the UK.
I've cancelled my BMC membership.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: grimer on November 10, 2021, 04:11:49 pm
You lot are taking this crack far too seriously.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: danm on November 10, 2021, 04:19:32 pm
You lot are taking this cack far too seriously.

Ftfy
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Bradders on November 10, 2021, 08:37:57 pm
Is it Mutation? Or Mutations?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Ru on November 10, 2021, 08:55:14 pm
Is it Mutation? Or Mutations?

Singular
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: edshakey on November 10, 2021, 09:01:27 pm
Will uploaded footage of Persian Dawn.

https://youtu.be/XOHslN5rryg

Is this recent?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shark on November 10, 2021, 09:40:44 pm
Today
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shark on November 10, 2021, 09:42:57 pm
Is it Mutation? Or Mutations?

Singular

Unless you have a speech impediment

Edit: Grimer took the piss out of Seb for mispronouncing ‘Partheon’
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 11, 2021, 11:36:18 am
Shame he didn't take John to task for mis-spelling it.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: PlainCroi$$ant on November 11, 2021, 01:41:44 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shark on November 11, 2021, 02:55:42 pm
 :slap:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 11, 2021, 05:50:52 pm
John originally spelled it with e iirc, doesn’t seem that way now https://parthianclimbing.com/manchester/

Edit
pedantic argument? Tick
Trivial point? Tick
Irrelevant to the massive achievement discussed by OP? Tick.

I’ll be off to ukc now..
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 12, 2021, 01:24:56 am
Will uploaded footage of Persian Dawn.


I love how he manages to make the Tor look polished  ;D

If he'd bolted it properly, I'm sure he could climb it without the aid points too..  ;)

In case the significance gets diluted with the ascent of just another 8cpath.. Brandenburg is massive news.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shurt on November 12, 2021, 09:18:18 am
He must be close to ticking the whole crag now. Does anyone know how close he is?!
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: remus on November 12, 2021, 09:49:03 am
He must be close to ticking the whole crag now. Does anyone know how close he is?!

In terms of absolutes I'd guess he's actually quite a way off, lots to do at the tor especially if you include link-ups! Having ticked the hardest stuff off I imagine he'd mop up without too much effort though.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: jwi on November 12, 2021, 10:15:27 am
But why would you?
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: shark on November 12, 2021, 10:23:12 am
He must be close to ticking the whole crag now. Does anyone know how close he is?!

He’s been saving Mecca for a flash attempt  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: cheque on November 12, 2021, 10:28:17 am
I bet he hasn’t done Cream Team Special.
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: kc on November 12, 2021, 10:46:33 am
Doubt you'll see him with the ivy cutters and a trowel sampling the delights left of Koran. These surly count more than the many pointless link-ups with no new moves. Let's not forget about "The Ministry of Silly Walks"
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Neil F on November 12, 2021, 11:21:11 am
I bet he's not done O'Donovan's Blind Variant...    :-\

(Has anyone, apart from me? Oh and Pete, of course  :lol:)
Title: Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
Post by: Kingy on November 15, 2021, 07:31:34 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot

It might be mentioned that the name was a reference by John to his critics in Sheffield at the time in case anybody was wondering about the reason behind the name.
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