UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Fiend on October 28, 2021, 10:05:07 pm
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Since the weather is now too warm and too wet for grit, and limestone is still a pile of bollox, maybe it's grinding season?? Angle grinding that is, not skate grinding nor grindcore (although the latter is always valid).
So what are your top picks for angle grinding and chopping bolts and pegs?? For the greater good, the purity of trad, the manning up of not taming sport runouts, or just your own personal maliciousness....
Lots of contenders around at the moment....
Two Tier retrobolts?
Rhoscolyn sport routes?
Wilton 1 lower-offs?
Clogwyn Yr Adar spad routes?
90% of the sub-F6a fucking turd quarried choss that's ruined Peak lime quarries?
Dead Banana lower-off?
All the classic "bit of gear every 6 inches" pure crack lines at Lorry Park Quarry?
Myself I think I'm going to do Twisting By The Pool and Jacuzzi Jive at LPT. Maybe that nice E3 by Pirates too. Just browsing the Toolstation website the now.
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I’d start with Clarion Call and progress in date order from there.
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Supercool for me. The bolts have totally changed the nature of the route for the aid climber now...
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Silent Spring
Plague
:worms:
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Oh I forgot a good un.
Hell's Wall - make it a purer, more aesthetic route in the spirit of mountain trad, by stripping away the 11 (or is it 13?) pegs and reducing the fixed gear to, say, 6 bolts :yes:
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Oh I forgot a good un.
Hell's Wall - make it a purer, more aesthetic route in the spirit of mountain trad, by stripping away the 11 (or is it 13?) pegs and reducing the fixed gear to, say, 6 bolts :yes:
All or nothing surely? Get them all out…. I’m voting for any of the stealth pegs at Gogarth all unnecessary,a blot on an otherwise great venue, closely followed by down the road in Rhoscolyn. The Welsh have lost it.
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:lol: Where do you live Northern yob? I really love your staying true to your feelings on this. I want to know so much about you!
I feel very much like this on the issue: :devangel:
keep up the good work. Ken smiles down on you :)
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If anyone seriously wants to debolt anything, now’s the time to do it because everyone will assume it was Fiend. :lol:
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:lol: Where do you live Northern yob? I really love your staying true to your feelings on this. I want to know so much about you!
I feel very much like this on the issue: :devangel:
keep up the good work. Ken smiles down on you :)
Ha ha we clipped some bolts together this year, and said hi last Thursday…….😜
Get off the fence, you gotta stand up and be counted.
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Wow. That's interesting... I have an idea of who you are but will protect your identity... though if you are who I think you are, you didn't seem too outraged at the bolt/peg on barbarossa when you clipped it. :P
Edit: though I might have got the wrong person
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All good stuff here. Everyone is welcomed to their opinion, but as far as I know it's mainly Fiend who is regularly going out and doing best-style possible ascents of trad routes near his limit, which is where this matters? So much so that he cleans routes so he can do them. Therefore losing climbs to vegetation is an issue for him.
Anonymity, to me, undermines the strength of online opinions. I mean, I was going to ask NY about his climbing activities, but suspect it'll turn out to be Ian Vickers or someone and I'll have to blush :-)
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I'm sure Fiend isn't the only one...
I have some inklings on NY's identity but both the people I suspect used that "peg" on Barbarossa and didnt complain about it!
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Anonymity, to me, undermines the strength of online opinions. I mean, I was going to ask NY about his climbing activities, but suspect it'll turn out to be Ian Vickers or someone and I'll have to blush :-)
I couldn’t agree more Grimer anonymity does indeed undermine opinions on here, so in the spirit of standing up and being counted and for Duncan (you were wrong) it’s Jason pickles, in one sense that doesn’t give my opinions any more or any less weight, and it’s never been a deliberate ploy (to be anonymous on here). It is however important to own your opinions. I’ve climbed a few rocks, and whacked in some bolts on some of the worlds finest granite monoliths, it’s fair to say I’ve never been a great onsight climber but it’s an ideal I hold highly,that and respecting the rock. And whilst I have somewhat hypocritically left fixed gear in various places across the globe, I feel quite strongly that certain areas should be left as crucibles to certain styles. I’m definitely not whiter than white( who is)…..
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Aha!!!! Completely forgot about you! Very good. I am wrong!
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Jasonnnnnnn :-)
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Jasonnnnnnn :-)
:punk:
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Grimer don't be daft, I'm just a punter punting along, I just happen to write and talk about it (spooging about the good stuff, ranting about the issues) more than average. Which I don't have much shame about because chatting shit about climbing is fun, hell, right down to arguing about merits / validity of having a book wedged inside a kneepad as a point of aid :blink:
There's lots of punters punting along with a similar/better spirit on similar/harder stuff and beyond including many on this forum even if they're sometimes too slovenly to take part in all important ethical debates. I don't mind anonymity in people who do take part!!
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Anonymity, to me, undermines the strength of online opinions. I mean, I was going to ask NY about his climbing activities, but suspect it'll turn out to be Ian Vickers or someone and I'll have to blush :-)
I couldn’t agree more Grimer anonymity does indeed undermine opinions on here, so in the spirit of standing up and being counted and for Duncan (you were wrong) it’s Jason pickles, in one sense that doesn’t give my opinions any more or any less weight, and it’s never been a deliberate ploy (to be anonymous on here). It is however important to own your opinions. I’ve climbed a few rocks, and whacked in some bolts on some of the worlds finest granite monoliths, it’s fair to say I’ve never been a great onsight climber but it’s an ideal I hold highly,that and respecting the rock. And whilst I have somewhat hypocritically left fixed gear in various places across the globe, I feel quite strongly that certain areas should be left as crucibles to certain styles. I’m definitely not whiter than white( who is)…..
"it’s Jason pickles" .. can anyone verify this? ;D
Seriously, great points, and especially re owning your own opinions.
Further, I don't see it as being hypocritical to feel strongly about removing fixed gear in one context, and yet placing it in another.
There are costs/benefits in either scenario.
I do however think that it would be better if bolts were placed if/when they are in fact drilled placements - rather than "Begs/Polts". Is the old placement on Barbarossa bashed out now? Shouldn't be replaced with a drilled piece though. That would create a completely different route - in my opinion.
I went through a period of feeling quite vexed about this bolts masquerading as pegs business. New fixed gear was being added at Millstone, with rumours about it being drilled. Old aid bolts were being extended, to create clip-ups out of old problems like Wall Street Crash. It all seemed a bit of a nonsense, so I decided to hammer some of the old bolts off.
On Wall Street, I expected just one light tap with the hammer to do the trick, but they were difficult to remove. Having damaged one old bolt, I decided the best course of action was to complete the job of removing them.
I'd been having a chat with Graham Hoey about the bolts on Adam Smith's, and his view was maybe to remove the old rubbish and put in one nice shiny new one! I doubt it was a serious suggestion, but just echoed the feeling that people were willing to reinterpret the situation on "historical grounds" if it helped claim an ascent.
I have mixed feelings about Wall Street Crash. I'd assumed the old bolts would have been of really dubious condition at the time, and that by extending them, people were creating a bit of a fudge. Johnny is understandably not very happy with me. However, this is the sort of thing that raises questions about which practices get established and accepted, and which not.
Regarding Supercool. I think this is a difficult one too. The route was established with "designer danger", and I'm not sure the FA can claim ownership over how a piece of rock is protected, if it was established using drilled protection in the first place. If however it was subsequently climbed with less drilled gear, then I probably would support that.
Re Gogarth - just take the bolts out. My opinion.
Edit: Fiend, how much do you charge? ;)
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Re Gogarth - just take the bolts out. My opinion.
Well if Fiend is a punter, I don’t get past the ‘p’ of the punt.. but FWIW, my thoughts exactly.
Edit: Fiend, how much do you charge? ;)
Maybe time for an Anti-Bolt Fund?
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Any serious discussion to be had loses all credibility if you're seriously talking about debolting Supercool Dave. Dunc has clearly mentioned it tongue in cheek; it's a sport route and realistically always has been! I don't think you can class it as designer danger compared to some slate routes on the Raindbow or similar, they're different beasts. If I've missed the joke completely, my bad! :lol:
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Just for the record... I definitely don’t support the bolts being taken out of supercool! That would be super shit if you ask me
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Any serious discussion to be had loses all credibility if you're seriously talking about debolting Supercool Dave.
On what basis?
It's been changed significantly, with bolts added subsequently, and I'd suggest that where there is a lack of credibility is in claiming something is this, or is that.
I'm not going to compromise my position by saying I wasn't actually advocating taking the bolts out.
However, I think your comment reflects the point I was making, about what things become, and how they get established as such.
It would be like saying "Painted Wall is a sport crag therefore drilled protection is de rigueur.
Aren't you basing your view of what's credible, on what you've already decided is/would be an acceptable outcome?
The threads should go back in Revelations. Does anyone know, were they drilled originally? ;D
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Any serious discussion
Wait, what?? That sort of nonsense can stop straight away!
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In my experience no one complains when adding bolts or removing them is the correct decision. At least not for long.
The most well known example is perhaps ULA who had all its bolts except those on the belays surreptitiously removed by someone who did it seeking any consensus or agreements before hand. There were some grumbling after about the lack of protocol, but basically everyone is happy about the outcome. Ten years later, people barely remember that it was almost a clip up for a while.
This is my personal experience as well both when I have added and chopped bolts. The important thing is to keep quite about it.
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Thought it was adding:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/supercool_duncan_drake_versus_martin_atkinson-4419
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The important thing is to keep quite about it.
Nah, you've got to lay the red carpet for just action with an internet forum debate.
Topple opponents with the power of your reason, it never fails.
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Thought it was adding:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/supercool_duncan_drake_versus_martin_atkinson-4419
Duncan was quite a character, it’s a real shame he’s not around anymore, there’s absolutely no way he would’ve allowed the stealth bolts to go unchallenged.
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Great link, Dave. I came across Duncan's name a few years ago and asked Paul Clarke who he was. Can't remember the full answer but the impression I got was fiercely bold. He sounds like a great character.
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Great link, Dave. I came across Duncan's name a few years ago and asked Paul Clarke who he was. Can't remember the full answer but the impression I got was fiercely bold. He sounds like a great character.
Dave’s link has had me lamenting some of the old characters….. whilst I’m not really pro people just ripping things out without consultation (for the reasons JB has mentioned elsewhere), but the thought of Duncan driving down there in a rage and ripping out the offending items brings a warm glow. It’s a real shame characters like him are becoming rarer! Also the loss of people with the strength of conviction and the fuck em attitude to just go out and do it. Maybe I should give his old mate Heavy Duty a heads up as to what’s going on…. It might be enough to finally get him back to the motherland. If it wasn’t for the fact I can imagine the disappointment Heavy would have in me for not just ripping them out I might.
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Heavy Duty would probably be arrested as soon as he arrived back. I bet the number of break ins at chemist shops went down when he left the country. :whistle:
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Interesting article. At first I was confused why he wanted to preserve a bold aid climb, until I saw the idea was it would be climbed free with minimal gear.
This is a good quote...
Simply that Duncan was passionate about what he believed in and brave enough to stand up for those beliefs. He didn't just sit back and talk about it, he actively demonstrated by his controversial and sometimes adversarial actions what he stood for. Looking back from today's world politically correct attitudes, Duncan's actions might be seen as a little unorthodox, he was genuine in defending his beliefs, yet his demonstrations ultimately yielded naught.
Although he sounds a bit aggressive and brash overall (although I do quite like the idea of getting angrier and angrier soloing WOH), it does reinforce that we probably need more northern yobs characters who can passionately defend their beliefs and take a stand against such things.
Talking about debolting - here's a good one. Did anyone ever find out who stripped the bolts out of Marlena / Hamish / Silk etc at Dunkeld's Cave Crag?? That seemed to be an exceptional example of mis-placed unjustified bolt removal as the crag was a real flagship of sport and trad sitting side-by-side with no impingement from the former to the latter (and AFAIK there still isn't to this day).
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Heavy Duty would probably be arrested as soon as he arrived back. I bet the number of break ins at chemist shops went down when he left the country. :whistle:
I think it’s probably been long enough that he would be ok….. I don’t think he’d get back into Canada though. I’m sure the chemists of West Yorkshire were quite happy to see the back of him back in the 80’s.
Despite all the bluster he’s another classic hard character (with a soft inside like all the best ones….)
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Heavy Duty would probably be arrested as soon as he arrived back. I bet the number of break ins at chemist shops went down when he left the country. :whistle:
I think it’s probably been long enough that he would be ok….. I don’t think he’d get back into Canada though. I’m sure the chemists of West Yorkshire were quite happy to see the back of him back in the 80’s.
Alan seemed just love hanging on dodgy gear. I did Diagonal with him, my first multi pitch HVS and he failed to find the top jamming crack and ended up doing Zeta with its then 2 tied off pegs for aid.
Despite all the bluster he’s another classic hard character (with a soft inside like all the best ones….)
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Great link, Dave. I came across Duncan's name a few years ago and asked Paul Clarke who he was. Can't remember the full answer but the impression I got was fiercely bold. He sounds like a great character.
It’s a real shame characters like him are becoming rarer! Also the loss of people with the strength of conviction and the fuck em attitude to just go out and do it.
Oh the irony. Or rather, the one-sided viewpoint. :)
Knowing some of them, the fact is the people who placed the deceptive bolts on the Welsh trad crags are exactly the type of character you wish there were more of. They're the type of people who don't engage in debates because they think they're a waste of time/energy, they're very resourceful, they're extremely experienced and they do by their actions just say 'fuck you I'm doing what I think is right because I believe it's the right thing'. Exactly the type you suggest you like. You just don't like what they've done.
Taking the viewpoint of that type of character above, it's tempting to say to you tough shit. But I partly agree with your point of view. My big problem with the bolts isn't that they're bolts; it's that they're so massively dishonest. The problem as I see it isn't bolts per se (they're a symptom). The way these bolts have been placed to resemble pegs creates further problems in a way that I find difficult to express but that I think will have overall negative long-term consequences in continued littering of pegs on trad routes. It's basically kicking the awkward can down the road, for lots of reasons one being we don't want to upset the old-school, and trying to make it look like continuing to replace pegs is OK. When what 'should' be happening imo, is either removing pegs completely - your view - or replacing with a bolt.
Personalities aren't any different on either side of debates like these. It's the reasoning behind the decision-making in this case that's so questionable.
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Yeah, "characters" such as this are great to chat about now, but having strength in your convictions doesn't make you right. If UK sport was bolted with a strict minimalist attitude it would be shit. Let trad be trad and sport be sport.
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Knowing some of them, the fact is the people who placed the deceptive bolts on the Welsh trad crags are exactly the type of character you wish there were more of. They're the type of people who don't engage in debates because they think they're a waste of time/energy, they're very resourceful, they're extremely experienced and they do by their actions just say 'fuck you I'm doing what I think is right because I believe it's the right thing'.
I'm not sure the "don't engage in debates because they think they're a waste of time/energy" is necessarily a good point. The discussion on this last great bastion of dogmatic traditionalist dinosaurs UKBouldering has some some fairly passionate viewpoints from active climbers across the spectrum, even trad purists like, ummm Barrows and Kingy are expressing some concerns about fixed gear.
Are these resourceful and experienced characters really so naive that they think there are no opposing viewpoints and no people interested in having a say on the outcome and the state of crags?? Hell, I'm not the biggest expert on, say Gordale history and route popularity, but if I decided to take a stand and de-bolt Supercool, I'd probably have some suspicions that other climbers might like a say and that a debate might be a good use of time/energy, ot at least running it past a crack committee of Duncan Campbell, DAVETHOMAS09 and spidermonkey90...
More likely, these characters know full bloody well their actions are dubious, contentious, and would have plenty of people disagreeing with them and would be worth hammering out and getting a consensus on, but just want to get away with it by presenting it as a fait d'accompli. I don't think when dealing with public cliffs that other people are going to climb on that that's necessarily the right way to go about it.
Furthermore, if we have a comparison of de-bolting / fixed-gear-removing guerilla characters, and retro-bolting / peg-bolting guerilla characters, I would say in the current climate in which climbing is trending inexorably towards quick-fix lowest-common-denominator consumer climbing with a constant increase in fixed gear, the former characters are considerably more useful to balance things out than the latter are...
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You’re missing the point. I didn’t say ‘not engaging in debates’ *is* a good trait.
The point (obvious I thought) is to do with NY’s admiration for strong ‘characters’. On his definition of admirable character traits, he would equally admire the characters placing the bolts-disguised-as-pegs, as the characters ripping them out.
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In which case my last paragraph applies.
Anyway, you haven't nominated your favourite de-gearing targets yet :P
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Surely one of the ‘admirable traits’ of Duncan Drake et al is their up front, in your face, honesty?
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Anyway, you haven't nominated your favourite de-gearing targets yet :P
I don't need to - I do rather than type. :)
What nobody knows until now (maybe one or two) is that I completely de-bolted a never-done long sport route near me a few years ago because it makes an amazing trad route. No fixed required to be a brilliant and safe only slightly run-out E7/8 (haha fuck off...:)
I worked it on ab rope and keep mean to go and actually do it (pretty hard with connies and birds), will be a bit embarrassing and a shame if I don't! New edition of NWL will reveal details. I did talk to the FAscensionist through rather than go full rogue, although somewhat rogue.
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You’re missing the point. I didn’t say ‘not engaging in debates’ *is* a good trait.
The point (obvious I thought) is to do with NY’s admiration for strong ‘characters’. On his definition of admirable character traits, he would equally admire the characters placing the bolts-disguised-as-pegs, as the characters ripping them out.
No I’d say your missing the point. I’m fully aware of the stealth bolt fairies identity and their characteristics, the character traits I was relating to (not the only good ones duncan, heavy and the peg fairy for that matter have/had) were the brash bold not giving a fuck, owning your opinion that they have/had, not skulking around in the shadows doing your own thing in the guise of public service…. Heavy and duncan would be on here justifying ripping them out.If the fairy had any of that he’d be standing up to justify and maybe ask what people thought rather than keeping his head down. To my mind they are polar opposites, regardless of wether you agree with them or not.
Whilst it’s quite obvious you like to pick holes in what you think other people think, I’m not actually sure where you stand, one minute you seem against, the next you seem to be sticking up for the fairy! Rather than pick holes in my view do you fancy making yours clear?
I’m more than up for a debate and you can pick away at my view, but it would be more straightforward if you would lay out where you stand rather than cashing in cheap shots on other peoples views. Am I the only one who’s not really sure where you stand, or what the actual point of your analysis of my post was and what it was actually adding to the debate.
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It’s got nothing to do with picking holes as you put it and I’m not sure why the defensive tone. Unless ‘picking holes’ means acknowledging there are no right or wrong viewpoints and that simple honesty is probably a great place to start, then yeah count me in I’ll pick holes all day long.
As you say, my views are more nuanced than either ‘rip them all out’ or ‘bolt it all up’. My view has been clearly expressed - ‘be honest about what we’re doing’.
Designing a bolt to look like a peg, drilling its placement, and then writing up route/crag descriptions in guides or online topos as containing ‘pegs’ is hugely dishonest in my opinion. It’s harder for climbers to argue for or against a bolt if people aren’t 100% sure it is a bolt when they climb past it.
But beyond that, the
‘trad’ ethical playing field is starting from a massively less than ideal place, as mrjonathanr quite rightly points out. Ripping out everything probably wouldn’t make the most of our amazing trad climbing. Clearly nor would bolting it. The best route is probably somewhere between the two extremes.
Can I make it any clearer? 🙄
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My instinct in response to Yob's earlier post was similar to Pete's, but I think I get where Yob is coming from now.. although there's definitely a bit of internal inconsistency
Anyway, these bolts are sneaky disingenuous bullshit that, IMO, make a mockery of British trad climbing and should be chopped.. but I won't be taking them out because I'm lazy and I don't care that much about British trad climbing. Trad might be coming from an ethical grey zone, but I kind of thought that bolting sea cliffs went out with the bolts in Pembroke back in the day, and am surprised that people who do care about British trad are putting up with this shit
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Not that lazy abarro81! Not many other posters on here who've actually debolted a route.
P.s. PM me if you'd rather maintain your semi anonymity on that, and I'll delete this post.
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Ripping out everything probably wouldn’t make the most of our amazing trad climbing. Clearly nor would bolting it. The best route is probably somewhere between the two extremes.
Maybe like adding more lower-offs / ab-points where suitable to make the trad routes they service more feasible to get on or off, and thus keeping them climbed and in decent condition?? :o
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It’s got nothing to do with picking holes as you put it and I’m not sure why the defensive tone. Unless ‘picking holes’ means acknowledging there are no right or wrong viewpoints and that simple honesty is probably a great place to start, then yeah count me in I’ll pick holes all day long.
As you say, my views are more nuanced than either ‘rip them all out’ or ‘bolt it all up’. My view has been clearly expressed - ‘be honest about what we’re doing’.
Designing a bolt to look like a peg, drilling its placement, and then writing up route/crag descriptions in guides or online topos as containing ‘pegs’ is hugely dishonest in my opinion. It’s harder for climbers to argue for or against a bolt if people aren’t 100% sure it is a bolt when they climb past it.
But beyond that, the
‘trad’ ethical playing field is starting from a massively less than ideal place, as mrjonathanr quite rightly points out. Ripping out everything probably wouldn’t make the most of our amazing trad climbing. Clearly nor would bolting it. The best route is probably somewhere between the two extremes.
Can I make it any clearer? 🙄
My bad, Sorry if that came across a bit aggro. By picking holes I was referring to your assumption about what traits I was referring to, I thought it was deadly obvious (apparently not)and you were being argumentative for the sake of it.
Just to be clear I’m not for ripping anything out( not yet anyway) I’m against replacing fixed gear on sea cliffs, I’m double against replacing them with bolts. It’s nuanced in many ways and I kinda take a hardline stance because I think the nuance gets abused, so I’d rather it was clear in black and white. If this was all about some shit peak limestone I wouldn’t be that bothered, but it’s not it’s Gogarth FFS!!
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Maybe like adding more lower-offs / ab-points where suitable to make the trad routes they service more feasible to get on or off, and thus keeping them climbed and in decent condition?? :o
Where does the belay bolt above Warpath/The Sun figure then?
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My instinct in response to Yob's earlier post was similar to Pete's, but I think I get where Yob is coming from now.. although there's definitely a bit of internal inconsistency
Anyway, these bolts are sneaky disingenuous bullshit that, IMO, make a mockery of British trad climbing and should be chopped.. but I won't be taking them out because I'm lazy and I don't care that much about British trad climbing. Trad might be coming from an ethical grey zone, but I kind of thought that bolting sea cliffs went out with the bolts in Pembroke back in the day, and am surprised that people who do care about British trad are putting up with this shit
Similarly surprised, doubly so since it's sea cliffs and it's Gogarth.
I'm not sure I'm an absolutionist personally - I can see some of the nuance where there are critical placements whose presence/absence changes the character of the route - but I'm really surprised that there doesn't seem to be anybody close to the issue who is (or who sees some nuance but sees this as beyond the pale).
Are they actually spreading, or is it just that I'm only hearing about them spreading beyond Gogarth more recently?
Is the Castell Helen abseil point the only place at Gogarth safe from bolts these days?
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Where does the belay bolt above Warpath/The Sun figure then?
Similar justification to the stakes at the top of some Pembroke cliffs - there *are* other options but they’re limited. Pembroke - rabbit holes threaded & gorse bushes; Warpath - limited wire placements one far back and one v.close to the lip and off to the side iirc, provided you have the right size, and people were quite understandably using the wall to belay from instead thus running ropes over the popular path, damaging the wall, and causing access issues. If you think a stake would be preferable then why. As it would need to be a drilled and glued stake in the bedrock. Although I’d actually prefer a stainless stake as it would be easier to spot!
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Drilled and glued stakes, now we're talking!! :2thumbsup:
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Just interested in peoples views. Wires in the wall weren’t my fave belay anchor tbh
A stake would be less contentious, though I don’t have any knowledge as to its practicality, sounds difficult to secure safely from what you say.
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Wouldn’t be difficult - would just involve drilling a big deep 20mm’ish hole in the bedrock above warpath and pumping in resin and placing a stake. Less contentious perhaps for those without the nuance of thinking to understand that it might look traditional but it’s just a massive bolt!
Some of those infamous routes on slate with a little rusty iron bollocks-removing spike as your last runner 20feet below the crux could do with upgrading to a nice 4ft long stainless Pembers stake drilled into the cliff. 👍
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.....with a buttplug on the end :yes: :ninja:
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Slug ClubButt Plug Special
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TL,DR: drilled anchors have a role in a few specific circumstances at Gogarth/Rhoscolyn. I would support the removal of drilled and/or glued quasi-bolts on existing trad. routes.
I've belayed on the quasi-bolts at Rhoscolyn where only alternative seemed to be the stone wall. Because of the lack of options and to stop people using the wall I don't see why proper bolts shouldn't be placed here. The Strand has had quasi-bolt abseil anchors added to the first belay but, unless I've misunderstood this, no replacements for peg runners. I have climbed the Strand top pitch and hobbled back to the gearing up point but I'd be happy to use fixed anchors here.
I’ve respectively climbed, failed on, and belayed someone on Citadel, Fifteen Men... and The Cruise. They are all fine without their original pegs and have no need for drilled or glued fixed gear. I would be happy to take an angle grinder to them if I could trust myself with one. I've no experience of Barbarossa so can't comment. Have any other Gogarth routes had these quasi-bolts added as peg replacements?
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51641794662_d4c7b5451f_z.jpg)
Better than a carrot, but in my experience they absorb a lot of oil.
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Joking aside, there's some pretty good debate in this thread.
Interesting with the thread about Burn for you/The Last Dance, I think it gives some insight into the relationship between climber and wall - and the passions expressed by Drake and Bock.
Think about the route names too.
Trying to preserve Supercool as the aid climb it was, is in my view completely understandable. We try to develop all the varied skills that bring the climber "closer" - whether that means achieving a 5 second hang on the lettuce edge, or learning how to bounce test a pin before weighting it.
Going back to the question of "stealth" bolts, there are a few other things to bear in mind.
As above - put the real thing in, and invite the debate.
Drilling peg placements in cracks, ruins placements for gear. A bolt can be placed in any solid piece of rock.
Cementing pegs in can just hide the corrosion.
Using stainless steel deforms the peg, so that hammering one into a uniform drilled hole actually leaves a peg which is often really easy to remove. Stainless pegs often then sheer at the eye, too.
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I’m more than up for a debate and you can pick away at my view
Speaking of which, you never replied to my last post in Fiend's other troll the other thread. I was just getting into that ;)
Essentially I agree with Pete H on this, in that I don't have a fundamental objection to some fixed gear on predominantly trad routes, but it should be properly done and clear to everyone what it is. Unlike Pete though I'm not totally against the type of bolt/peg used recently in North Wales, because the factors of being visually unobtrusive and respecting a now-rotted placement that influenced the original character of the route do, at least in some cases, count for something. It's not like they're all that deceptive, word gets around.
My main point is that I don't see why there should be a bright line between sport and trad, or all fixed gear vs. no fixed gear. Does it spin people out because we use two different grading systems?
Briefly, on the lamenting of fewer hard characters: fuck that. Whatever may have been lost in modern climbing culture compared to the 80s, I'm glad there's now less machismo.
And finally, in answer to the original post, I would be totally happy for the bolts on Citadel, Fifteen Men and The Cruise to be removed.
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Hold on, main cliff got bolted too?! Haha. North Wales trad climbing is a fucking joke.
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Briefly, on the lamenting of fewer hard characters: fuck that. Whatever may have been lost in modern climbing culture compared to the 80s, I'm glad there's now less machismo.
:agree: If I witnessed someone pull that “wait ‘til it’s crowded at St. Govan’s, solo to the crux of The Butcher, loudly pretend to get gripped then continue up in a manner that reveals it was all an act” trick I’d feel embarrassed for them more than anything.
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Hold on, main cliff got bolted too?!
Lest we get a touch hysterical here, there is one resined pegbolt on Citadel.
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I’m more than up for a debate and you can pick away at my view
Speaking of which, you never replied to my last post in Fiend's other troll the other thread. I was just getting into that ;)
Essentially I agree with Pete H on this, in that I don't have a fundamental objection to some fixed gear on predominantly trad routes, but it should be properly done and clear to everyone what it is. Unlike Pete though I'm not totally against the type of bolt/peg used recently in North Wales, because the factors of being visually unobtrusive and respecting a now-rotted placement that influenced the original character of the route do, at least in some cases, count for something. It's not like they're all that deceptive, word gets around.
My main point is that I don't see why there should be a bright line between sport and trad, or all fixed gear vs. no fixed gear. Does it spin people out because we use two different grading systems?
Briefly, on the lamenting of fewer hard characters: fuck that. Whatever may have been lost in modern climbing culture compared to the 80s, I'm pretty glad there's now less machismo.
And finally, in answer to the original post, I would be totally happy for the bolts on Citadel, Fifteen Men and The Cruise to be removed.
Ok much as this feels like going round in circles I’ll try to give you my view in simple terms (well as simple as I can)
I feel that trad climbing should’ve moved on from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s I don’t think that placing fixed gear on new routes is something that should be happening, either step up and accept the challenge or leave it for someone else.
I like to clip bolts, I’m not against them, I don’t particularly like hybrid routes I prefer one or the other.
I’m against fixed gear (pegs and to a lesser degree threads)because they rot and deteriorate, they don’t stay consistent for everyone. Yes bolts fix this but they involve a drill, which In my world on a sea cliff or mountain crag isn’t acceptable. This is somewhat hypocritical because I’ve been involved in putting up routes where we have used a drill.
I very much get the nuance and respect people’s views and why they have them with regard to mixed routes. In my view the whole Gogarth debacle shows exactly why there needs to be a bright line. People are swapping old pegs which aren’t essential to protect routes, with BOLTS.
This sets a precedent, if I climb a new route and don’t fancy a bold E8 is it ok to put a bolt in and have a nice E6? No why not? How about if I find a feature and put a peg bolt in it? You can change the grades for whatever you like, if you can’t climb it in it’s natural state I think you should walk away. There’s limited rock and certain areas should be left as crucibles to certain styles, if we don’t do this it becomes a free for all, fill your boots fuck show. I wouldn’t necessarily be against a crucible of mixed routes…. Quarries maybe, some peak limestone, but definitely not sea cliffs or mountain crags.
What I think is really disappointing is that the peg fairies are doing their own thing, if there is consensus then fair enough(I think I’m in the minority) but to not ask and just do shows a real lack of respect for the community as a whole, if we all acted like that it would be a right mess and it’s one of the reasons I probably won’t be going down there with an angle grinder. Hardline or not I respect other peoples views wether I agree with them or not.
With regard to lamenting hard men, I said I miss characters not hard men. I like life to be diverse, that’s means hard men, it means weirdo’s it means people and ideals I don’t agree with. You can take your bland meh community it’s boring and not for me, but each to their own. There’s place for a little machismo in my world.
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Hold on, main cliff got bolted too?!
Lest we get a touch hysterical here, there is one resined pegbolt on Citadel.
i.e. Gogarth main cliff has a brand new a bolt smack in the middle of it, and by the sounds of it not even for a belay. I'm not averse to some "mixed" routes (e.g. Serpentine), or sport routes with big runouts (e.g. Groove Train), and those are both based on historical quirks to some extent, but I'm not convinced that retrobolting classic British sea cliffs is the way forward for this. This isn't replacing an old bolt in a designer danger route on the slate or down Avon gorge, or even replacing the drilled pegs on the ramp at Avon with bolts, which would seem a more valid thing to do because it's a weird urban mish-mash crag.
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I feel that trad climbing should’ve moved on from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s I don’t think that placing fixed gear on new routes is something that should be happening, either step up and accept the challenge or leave it for someone else.
I’m against fixed gear (pegs and to a lesser degree threads) because they rot and deteriorate, they don’t stay consistent for everyone. Yes bolts fix this but they involve a drill, which In my world on a sea cliff or mountain crag isn’t acceptable.
In my view the whole Gogarth debacle shows exactly why there needs to be a bright line. People are swapping old pegs which aren’t essential to protect routes, with BOLTS.
This sums up where I am in this debate. No one on here would accept placing a bolt or a ‘peg-bolt’ on a sea cliff to turn what was potentially a run-out E3 into, say, an E1. Quite rightly. And I don’t see why it should be any different at higher grades.
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There’s limited rock and certain areas should be left as crucibles to certain styles, if we don’t do this it becomes a free for all, fill your boots fuck show. I wouldn’t necessarily be against a crucible of mixed routes…. Quarries maybe, some peak limestone, but definitely not sea cliffs or mountain crags.
It might have got a bit circular but I think your reply is worthwhile, it shows we don't actually disagree all that much.
I broadly agree that certain areas should be left as crucibles of certain styles, if only as a buttress against the Wedge©, and that most mountain and sea cliffs should remain wholly trad. (I say most - what about LPT, for example, or Tunnel Wall?) Hence my agreement that Main Cliff should be fixed-gear free. Upper Tier is a bit less clear for me, as its character sits somewhere between sea cliff and outcrop, which is the kind of edge-case distinction that causes problems for any rigid rule (witness people worming around the status of Diabaig or Creag Dubh).
As far as your concession to having a crucible for mixed routes - the slate quarries have been pretty much defined as such from the start (if they had to go one way or the other, I know which it would be), and I would argue that limestone, not just in the Peak, is pretty often suited to it, as numerous examples all over the country show.
On the point of respecting the community, I totally agree. However...
With regard to lamenting hard men, I said I miss characters not hard men. I like life to be diverse, that’s means hard men, it means weirdo’s it means people and ideals I don’t agree with. You can take your bland meh community it’s boring and not for me, but each to their own. There’s place for a little machismo in my world.
Whoa there.
You may not have used the word 'hard', but it's hardly a misrepresentation of the sort of no-nonsense domineering masculinity you were talking about.
It's a bit off target to call my community 'bland meh boring' just because I think it's a good thing there is less machismo in climbing culture. You're basically saying that either we have machismo or we have blandness, which is hopefully not what you actually think.
It's ironic to defend machismo under the guise of celebrating diversity, when it was almost certainly machismo in the climbing culture of the past that stunted diversity. All good if you're one of the lads, massively off-putting if you're not. Yes yes, snowflake millennial, etc.
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No one on here would accept placing a bolt or a ‘peg-bolt’ on a sea cliff to turn what was potentially a run-out E3 into, say, an E1.
This is a reasonable point, but if you tweak the circumstances to 'placing a bolt to replace a rusted-out peg to turn what was once an E1 that had become a run-out E3 back into an E1' you might have a less strong consensus.
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Northern Yob and Ali K, just curious, does your ‘no fixed gear’ ideal extend to in-situ threads which can’t be placed on lead?
...including many on this forum even if they're sometimes too slovenly to take part in all important ethical debates...
I'm not sure if I was meant to be the target of that but you have pulled me in!
In my view we should aspire to zero-fixed gear on all trad routes, for reasons of maintaining the nature of the challenge and in part as a statement against insidious bolting as it happening in North Wales. I’d like to see news features on new routes and important repeats emphasising the amount of fixed gear placed / replaced so that this is more transparent and might act as a disincentive to those tempted to place (what I would consider to be) too much of it.
However, I’m not as pure as Northern Yob or Ali K (maybe more aligned to you Andy M?). These are the caveats where, if they’re persuasive enough, I’d think that a bolt-peg or similar would be acceptable or even preferable:
1. as a lower-off if this helps preserve an ecologically important crag-top environment
2. where a route was always destined a sport-route but before there were bolts (i.e. a route which would have been fully-bolted if only it had been first climbed in a later era, and where it is in a suitable location for a sport route [i.e. not anywhere at Rhoscolyn])
3. if the deterioration of a crucial peg means that a route will become defunct, and the original peg was always a peg and not a bolt, and a(n actual traditional) peg replacement would work but only as a temporary measure because of the likelihood of it rusting and the route will be significantly less balanced / enjoyable without addressing the deteriorated peg.
This should be clear from the above but to avoid ambiguity, I would not condone the placement or replacement of fixed gear on a trad route where there is alternative trad gear available which would stop you from hitting the floor, no matter how pumpy it is to place or how long the potential fall would be. I’m also not into increased fixed gear to help make routes more popular as if you extend this argument to it’s logical conclusion then you could make a case for bolting literally any route.
I can’t think of any specific routes where my criteria are mutually incompatible, but I’m sure ‘hole-picker Pete’ will be along in a minute to prove me otherwise ;D
PS. I’m bland myself but I like reading about characters more than I enjoy having to tolerate machismo in real life
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I will also waft into this discussion, aimed at no one in particular, the fact that while debate rages about resined pegbolts, there are still old-fashioned non-stainless pitons being hammered into new routes in North Wales. :slap:
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There’s place for a little machismo in my world.
Well you were named Britain’s Manliest Man by The Sun, so that much is obvious 😄
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Whoa there.
You may not have used the word 'hard', but it's hardly a misrepresentation of the sort of no-nonsense domineering masculinity you were talking about.
It's a bit off target to call my community 'bland meh boring' just because I think it's a good thing there is less machismo in climbing culture. You're basically saying that either we have machismo or we have blandness, which is hopefully not what you actually think.
It's ironic to defend machismo under the guise of celebrating diversity, when it was almost certainly machismo in the climbing culture of the past that stunted diversity. All good if you're one of the lads, massively off-putting if you're not. Yes yes, snowflake millennial, etc.
Whoa there yourself
I didn’t say I missed toxic masculinity, characters have good and bad points, I’m happy to take some bad for the good. Duncan and heavy are/were both complex characters with many flawed aspects ( aren’t we all?) I lament the lack characters like them yes. Underneath the tough exterior and quite obviously flawed aspects of their characters lie some traits which I genuinely aspire to, they would stand up for what they believe and would happily die for the people close to them amongst many other things.
I’d rather live in a world with people like them than without, despite their obvious faults. Machismo or masculinity isn’t all bad, and doesn’t have to be negative. If we were all perfect in my view, life would be meh and boring.
I’m not defending anything, all I said was I miss characters, climbing is becoming bland and meh in my view, your welcome to yours, and yes snowflake….. and yes I’m a dinosaur, I just think the worlds all the richer for both of us.
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There’s place for a little machismo in my world.
Well you were named Britain’s Manliest Man by The Sun, so that much is obvious 😄
I think it was rustlers burgers….. it’s a long and funny story at least it’s funny now, a good lesson in not taking yourself too seriously…..
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Ali K, just curious, does your ‘no fixed gear’ ideal extend to in-situ threads which can’t be placed on lead?
I’m less offended by these as they can be replaced without damaging the rock at all, but if pushed I’d say preferable to remove. They add a bit of Russian roulette into a potential onsight and can change the grade depending on what state they’re in at a particular point in time. And one person’s ‘can’t be placed on lead’ might be different from another’s so blocks the thread from being placed on lead even if someone wanted to. Similar to the ‘stuck’ (in-situ) nuts that littered Big Issue before I cleaned it up.
I don’t have much skin in the game anyway these days as I don’t really climb. I just think with the standards of the youth coming through it’s a shame to rob them of some potential hard and properly ‘clean’ trad ascents of some really good bits of rock (even if it is just re-climbing old routes minus the in-situ tat) and updating the grade accordingly.
Personally I’d be more psyched to see and read about that than just an acceptance that routes should be preserved in a state most similar to the first ascent by replacing fixed gear like for like.
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Ali K, just curious, does your ‘no fixed gear’ ideal extend to in-situ threads which can’t be placed on lead?
I’m less offended by these as they can be replaced without damaging the rock at all, but if pushed I’d say preferable to remove. They add a bit of Russian roulette into a potential onsight and can change the grade depending on what state they’re in at a particular point in time. And one person’s ‘can’t be placed on lead’ might be different from another’s so blocks the thread from being placed on lead even if someone wanted to. Similar to the ‘stuck’ (in-situ) nuts that littered Big Issue before I cleaned it up.
I don’t have much skin in the game anyway these days as I don’t really climb. I just think with the standards of the youth coming through it’s a shame to rob them of some potential hard and properly ‘clean’ trad ascents of some really good bits of rock (even if it is just re-climbing old routes minus the in-situ tat) and updating the grade accordingly.
Personally I’d be more psyched to see and read about that than just an acceptance that routes should be preserved in a state most similar to the first ascent by replacing fixed gear like for like.
Yes same
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climbing is becoming bland and meh in my view
Well I'll make peace on this digression, because in many ways I agree.
Homogenised, insta-friendly, training-obsessed, sponsorship-appeasing, worthy bullshit ...being millennial I can't help, but don't lump me in with all that :beer2:
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I must have missed the UKC UKB forum merger
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You seemed to have missed the bit where people are quite engaged in discussing the overall topic, even in the context of a light-hearted post (including people decrying the post as trolling). BUT if said post has pushed more worthy climbing/bouldering posts down the page in these hectic forum times, I do apologise, and feel free to bump them back up.
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just jesting at some UKBers expense, I am sure you are familiar with the concept Fiend ;)
as you were
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Oh okay, I take that back then!!
TBH I think the main difference between UKC and UKB is the quality and focus of the responses rather than the nature of the topics. Although having not looked at the former in 2 years I could be wrong...
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yeah I have to say I don't go on the other channel much nowdays either. My derailing facetiousness aside (or maybe continued), it's nice to see some variety in the things people like to complain about round here even if reading it did swallow my morning whole :lol: