UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: TobyD on September 03, 2021, 10:05:34 am
-
Tourism is double edged sword and plenty of locals suffer more than they benefit from it, especially from the end of September onward. It’s not that what you said is entirely incorrect, it’s just far more complex and deserves greater consideration and discussion than your glib riposte.
I'd definitely agree with your initial point. An awful lot of the hard cash doesn't go to anyone in Cornwall, yet their covid rates skyrocket, and their council taxes go on clearing up the debris left by holidaymakers, or on collecting bins of the thousands of homes owned by people from elsewhere. Property or events companies are often based outside the area, and Cornish or Devonian people get left with minimum wage seasonal jobs, getting abused by customers who are bitter that its raining or something, soaring property costs and poor infrastructure.
-
It's a difficult issue. Having just spent another wonderful week in my parent's second home in Lleyn I've given it a lot of thought. There was a protest against second homes on bank holiday Monday - the school is due to close - which was reportedly attended by four.
Reading the Welsh government-commissioned report the striking thing is how ineffective the suggested policies are likely to be (that and the fact climate change isn't mentioned once!). Double council tax, increase stamp duty - neither much barrier to anyone who can afford to drop 0.5 Mill on a second home. And the report suggests, from a Cymraeg point of view, that empty second homes are preferable to them occupied by non-Cymraeg (english retirees being the likely buyers). I've also failed to find any guidance on how to act as a responsible second home owner. Is it better for the community, for example, if the house is left empty off-season or rented out?
To take the bin issue above, in Gwynedd you pay double council tax as a second home owner, and the bins don't need emptying 9 months of the year, so perhaps not such bad value. And register the property as a holiday let and you don't get bins at all - you have to rent a commercial one.
The glib answer to sell the house to a local doesn't stand much scrutiny either. Were you to take what they could pay they would be a fool not to just sell it and buy another anywhere else. The latest holiday flat development was required to have four affordable homes for locals. Six years on and they've just sold the second. Either they aren't affordable or locals would rather buy somewhere that is better value. The suggestion to split the housing market into local-only and holiday would massively devalue any local's houses in nice areas (another contributing factor to the unsold houses). It seems unlikely to get traction.
Having looked fairly hard I'm not seeing any easy answers. The issues of inequality and unaffordable housing are national ones, remote working and climate change are only going to exacerbate things.
-
It's not just a Welsh issue either, i suspect it's just as prevalent, or maybe more so in the SW, but also one in the Scottish "Highlands and Islands".
Surprised by the sentiment towards English retirees, think it is a language thing? Having holidayed and weekended away in the highlands over the summer (Kingussie, Comrie and Pitlochry) we noted a lot of the local "elder" population (assumed retirees) we spoke to with English accents. At least a full time population will make more of an effort to become part of the local "society" than a weekender or holiday letter?
-
It is a language issue yes, but also an anti-immigrant vibe given legitimacy by the language thing. Redhead's book 'Colonists out' got it's tilte form a long-standing piece of graffiti.
I've been to the Outer Hebs a few times and was surprised at the number of swanky second homes popping up in recent years on Barra and Harris. Same language issues, much bigger issues with protecting a sustainable community for the off season (Oban has a state boarding school for secondary kids from the islands, which has to be some sort of vehicle for emigration). But you won't find many locals in Gwynedd aware that the same problem is worse elsewhere.
-
Living in N.W Wales I have nothing of much use to add other than it sucks to be poor, anywhere. At least being poor in N.Wales has a nice view.
One option not mentioned above is a policy I came across on an Irish island I recently looked at plots of land to build on. There you couldn't get planning permission to build on a plot if you weren't from the island. A similar policy could work in N.Wales (and elsewhere) and might allow locals to buy land and self-build nice houses for a lower price than to buy. It would incentivise eco-builds and kit houses from the likes of German and Scandinavian designers; support local building contractors; and provide new housing stock in a tight market to alleviate inflated prices. Would probably require some kind of clause about no resales within a specified time limit or resale to locals only rule. Some much-needed disruption to the market if locals were able to afford to live in good quality self-builds in desirable locations such as Cornwall, West coast Anglesy, Lleyn etc.
-
Or take Jersey's approach; you need to have lived there for 10 years before you can buy a property. If you've ever looked at Air B&B and found almost no properties to let on Jersey, this is one reason.
Anyway, topic split?
-
One option not mentioned above is a policy I came across on an Irish island I recently looked at plots of land to build on. There you couldn't get planning permission to build on a plot if you weren't from the island. A similar policy could work in N.Wales (and elsewhere) and might allow locals to buy land and self-build nice houses for a lower price than to buy.
Nice idea but wouldn’t getting funding for a self-build be the stumbling block with this? Banks not keen to lend on an empty plot of land. Which is why most self-builds are done by cash buyers or those already with property to leverage to build a retirement home or some such? Not first time buyers.
-
Yes it could be a block based on current thinking. It would need a rethink of funding and risk/return models from banks or other financiers, but that needn't be a block if the will was there to change things up. Of course, the will isn't there to change things up from the vested interests - it would require a disruptor to force the lenders to change their model.
However.., chatting to a mate about self-build mortgages it seems common for the lenders to release money in stages as build progresses. So they can take back ownership if the owner gets into difficulty and can't complete the build. Actually less risk for lenders, as the amounts loaned are smaller due to being staged. As the amounts are smaller, so large lenders are less interested as less return.
-
Yes, It's a good idea, although local self-builds aren't exactly unusual on Lleyn at present and ali's point is valid. Compounding that issue is the fact that mortgages are much harder to get for properties with any kind of resale caveat.
The Welsh report makes much of the example of St Ives which banned new-build second homes five years ago. If you go by google search returns the headline associated with that scheme is 'backfired' as prices continue to rise. I believe the central driver of the issue is successive ripples of emigration away from over-priced cramped urban centres. In time remote working may allow anyone to thrive anywhere but currently it strongly favours those who first built a career in an urban setting.
The fact remains that much of the housing stock was clearly designed with holidayers in mind and therefore much less attractive as a home unless for retirement. Which again is typically monied urban/ english emigrants - who change the communities and cause school closures far more than holidaymakers. But it is rows of unaffordable empty houses in off-season that drive the emotions I suspect.
Agree on the thread split.
-
Yes it could be a block based on current thinking. It would need a rethink of funding and risk/return models from banks or other financiers, but that needn't be a block if the will was there to change things up. Of course, the will isn't there to change things up from the vested interests - it would require a disruptor to force the lenders to change their model.
I'm struggling to see what the might be? People typically don't spend enough on ground investigation and it's not uncommon for issues to arise just 'getting out of the ground'. At the end of the day the bank might end up with a parcel of land which is unsuitable to build on*.
You can apply the same to major infrastructure projects too . The money to de-risk the project isn't spent as you don't get something tangible for your money. This is why I chuckle when MPs stand up and say they're going to stop prices increasing; it's too late.
(* not financially viable).
-
The other issue is it does very little to tackle inequality. The vast majority of young people who manage to build their own house on their own land will only do so with a significant head-start from family wealth and land. Whilst it might help the odd farmer's child to stay local that isn't helping the majority or tackling inequality.
Realistically I think the only serious answer is a much bigger percentage of housing stock off the common market and in council ownership.
-
The other issue is it does very little to tackle inequality. The vast majority of young people who manage to build their own house on their own land will only do so with a significant head-start from family wealth and land. Whilst it might help the odd farmer's child to stay local that isn't helping the majority or tackling inequality.
Realistically I think the only serious answer is a much bigger percentage of housing stock off the common market and in council ownership.
One of the bigger obstacles to “staying local” is lack of employment opportunity in rural settings. The Cornwall of my youth was highly industrial.
Clay pits, Tin mines, etc. Many of those quaint ports were grotty, smelly, large scale, fishing hubs. Port Issac was full of drunken arseholes, frequently engaging in 12bore duels and brawling, now it’s “cute”. It was a standing joke, that the local police would ask the squadrons at St Mawgan to drop “something nasty” on Padstow, for similar reasons and if it wasn’t Rock, St Ives, Polzeath or Looe, it wasn’t touristy. If you parked a car in Camborne, you’d lose about 15% of the vehicle for every 15 minutes you left it unattended.
But there was work and quite a lot of it.
The current tourist and second home explosion is largely linked to the fact that, overgrown, abandoned industrial waste lands, with nice beaches; are surprisingly attractive. Probably just a sequelae of the true cause of the locals misery.
France is full of almost entirely abandoned villages and even whole regions, as a consequence of their urban shift. The village I lived in, in the Ardeche, had only the shepherd and Madame Bonifois (a 100+ year old battle axe) left in it (out of 12 families) who were even French. Even the Shepherd was knowns “Le Chinois” because he was actually a Vietnamese refugee.
Like North Wales, it’s just a victim of that post war industrial collapse and the broadening global economy.
It’s going to hurt for a long time yet.
-
A long time? Don't see it reverting, unless formerly office based occupation becomes a thing of the past and everybody works from home permanently.
-
A long time? Don't see it reverting, unless formerly office based occupation becomes a thing of the past and everybody works from home permanently.
Well, during the 10 years we lived in France, it changed dramatically. There was a lot of tourism in the gorges, but nothing in the mountains. Then people started moving back out from Lyon and Montelimar etc. The Nuclear power stations brought all sorts of knock ons. Vin yards expanded into previously un cultivated areas. Ski stations, outdoor activity centres, Pony trekking on the plateau really took off etc etc.
But, the revival began with (mainly) Dutch families buying up and renovating houses all over the region; as holiday homes. Then many simply moved there or retired there and it’s a surprisingly vibrant community now.
However, mid 90s the resentment of foreigners/outsiders and dearth of out of season employment coupled with skyrocketing house/land prices looked a lot like Cornwall today (ironically, the exact place I moved to France, from).
-
So investment in infrastructure and agriculture in the region.
Hmmmm, Tories?
-
So investment in infrastructure and agriculture in the region.
Hmmmm, Tories?
Well, iirc, it was mostly EU development fund stuff, Cornwall gets loads of that too, so…
Ah…
Yeah, you have a point.
-
So investment in infrastructure and agriculture in the region.
Hmmmm, Tories?
This summer we went on holiday to Cornwall, took down a bottle of Cornish sparkling wine we'd bought ealier on in London to celebrate finishing my masters. It was really good wine, and not cheap either. Driving around the county all I could think was "why isn't every hillside here a vineyard?"
-
Driving around the county all I could think was "why isn't every hillside here a vineyard?"
Heavy metals contamination? 😄
-
Driving around the county all I could think was "why isn't every hillside here a vineyard?"
Heavy metals contamination? 😄
They’re not hills, they’re spoil heaps…